00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number two hundred and forty three in Today in the show, I'm joined by Ryan four of the CUDU May to take a very advanced look at how wind, thermals and air currents impact deer and deer hunting. Before we get to the show, they want to give a quick thank you to our friends at Lacrosse Boots for their support of this podcast episode. I've been wearing the Alpha Burley Pros this year with eight grams of fins lay into alation. Been very comfortable so far, and I put them to the test this past week as we are down to temperatures into thirties. That's the coldest I have wornament so far this year and it wasn't an issue at all. They were super comfortable, kept me warm, kept me in the tree, happily hunting, and that's all you can ask for from a boot. On top of that, they're also waterproof. They're about a cent freezer you can get when it comes to a boot. They're comfortable to hike in pretty long distances. Surprisingly, even though it's a rubber boot, these boots fit your foot quite nicely. I've walked long distances and it hasn't been an issue. So if you're in the market for new boots, head on over to Lacrosse Footwear dot com to learn more. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Onyx. And today in the show, we're going deep into the weeds on a single topic, and that topic is wind and thermals and air currents and all these things and how they impact how dear smell and how you and I should be hunting. And joining us to have this discussion is an avid deer hunter and the Equality Deer Management Association's Senior Regional Director and field Supervisor, Ryan Furrer. And Ryan is a guy who is hunting mature deer all across the country and he studied this craft under some of the very best hunters out there. And one of the keys that Ryan is so successful is because he's gone above and beyond the average hunter's understanding of this topic of wind, thermal's how dear smell. Ryan is an absolute wind and thermal junkie, So it just seemed to me that he would be the perfect guy to help us get into the nitty gritty of this topic, which which is really of of the utmost importance for deer hunters. That there might not be a single thing more important for deer hunters than understanding wind and how these deer smell, because the nose is most of us know. The white tail's nose is this number one defense mechanism, and if we want to get close to these deer, especially mature buck, we have to find some way to avoid their nose, or fool their nose, or take advantage of some kind of weak is that they have, because there's not very many weaknesses. So Ryan is going to give us a level of in depth knowledge on this topic that I don't think we've ever gotten to before on the podcast. I'm very excited about that. With this being the case, so I do want to point out that if you are a brand new hunter, if you're just getting into it, or if maybe you haven't started hunting yet, you're intrigued, there's this it's likely. I guess I was gonna say there's a chance, but it's probably just playing likely. That some of these concepts and details are going to get a little bit confusing for you. This is definitely an advanced kind of course that we're taking here today. So I'd recommend that if you fall into that camp, make sure that you go back and listen to some of the past podcasts, especially the Deer Hunter that's what is it Beginner's Guide to Deer Hunting podcast? I think that was episode two six. That's going to give you a brief introduction to understanding the wind and how that impacts deer hunting. Understand that first and just kind of try to wrap your head around that, trying to implement that before you get into this level of detail. Uh and even after that, if you come and you start listening to this one, don't get discouraged if this does seem a little daunting, you know, learn a deer hunt is a channel. There's a lot to it. And and that's why I do want to say one more thing to you new hunters out there. At a minimum, during this episode, fast forward listen to the last fifteen minutes of this one, because at that point in this show we actually pivot in topics and we end up talking about some of the programs that the Quality Deer Management Association is putting together to help mentor and bring new hunters into the full So there's a few different programs, a couple different ideas and suggestions about how you can get connected with folks who can help you learn how to hunt. I definitely want to make sure you guys hear about that. Now, for the rest of you that are into this kind of heavy detail, advanced wind kind of conversation, get ready for some very interesting stuff. And uh, we do have a very exciting bonus guest joining us today too. I'm not gonna say who it is yet, I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of make you guys wait and find this one out, but I will give you a clue. His name rhymes with burder Uh. So there's that to look forward to as well. Now that said, before we dive into this one, we do need to thank one of our partners who helped make this podcast possible, and that is Onyx. Onyx is the maker of the on X Hunt app and just a couple of days ago, our bonus guest for today's episode, burder Well. We were up at our Northern Michigan deer camp and on our second evening of that hunt, we decided to go and chase some hopefully chase some deer on some public land that we've never been on before. At the truck before we headed out to hunt, each of us pulled up our Onyx app and we marked our truck occasions so we knew where we had to come back to after dark. And then we each downloaded an off grid version of the map just in case we lost service, we would still be able to see the map, we'd still be able to see our location, and then we headed our separate ways. As I started walking, I turned on the tracker feature that the app has, which records your exact path as you walk along somewhere, which would allow me after dark to follow that same path all way back to the vehicle. Then, as I was sneaking into the timber, I had the Onyx app up, looking at it the whole time to see the arrow map on the phone and comparing that to what I was actually seeing in front of me, and I worked my way towards a certain terrain feature I saw on the map that I thought might be promising. Now I bring all this up. I mentioned all this because I think It's a great example of how handy and how often the Onyx hunt app can be used during a hunt like this. So if you'd like to check it out for yourself, head on over to your mobile app store of choice and search for Onyx. That's O n X. If you do end it purchasing in the maps, you can use promo code wired. That's W I R E D for off. All Right, I am here now with Ryan Furr and Josh further Hilliard on the line. Uh, this is gonna be this is gonna be a good time. And and Josh, you've you've been on a ton We don't need to introduce you too much. But Ryan, first time appearance in the show. Thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. And and it's kind of interest. And this is gonna be an interesting dynamic because Kurt me if I'm wrong. But technically, uh, Ryan, you're you're Josh's boss, right, So if I tell you all the dirty secrets that Josh has, is that going to get him in trouble? Yeah? No, yeah, technically I am his boss, but no, it's definitely not going to get him in trouble. I'll be on my best behavior, Ryan, Yeah, yeah, definitely just getting what do you what do you think about the fact that that Josh has been has become iconic in the hunting world with a single name. When people here Further they know who this man is. Is that is that impressively? Yeah, that's that's awesome. You know, like one of the first times I heard that man, you gotta run with that further it is and he's like, no, no, no, it's oh my god, I can't believe it's taken off. And you know, I think I've spent him a few text messages where I started out or end it was further. And then I even got a couple of people at the office, which actually my boss would be Josh's boss's boss sent I saw an email one time that he finished with hashtag further. So it's definitely picked up some speed there. It's just pretty cool. That is funny. I never would have thought back in high school. I get emails from people like addressing to further like not Josh, it's like, hey, Further, like I want to start a branch or what you know, what's going on at this event, And it's like, oh my gosh, just ridiculous. We need a t shirt. Yeah, yeah, we really do. Um, so, so I guess I'll take of those profits. I might have to negotiate that down a little bit, Josh, but I'll give you a good handshake and a slap on the back, how about that? Um? But Ryan, could you give us a little bit of an introduction that kind of cliff notes that I usually like to try to get here as far as, um, what you're doing since you you're your further's boss, but what does that mean? And um? And how did you kind of get to this point? Look, I'd like to hear a little bit about your personal journey too real quick yes or um? Yeah? So what am I doing as far as with kid have? I'm basically I oversee the regional director. So Johnson is a regional director for probably a germ management association. And there's uh the eight others asigned from himself, and you know, they basically you know, are the grassroots there in touch with the volunteers uh out there and kt M a land doing their stuff, and Josh is kind of the liaison between them and the home office making sure that the eyes are dotted in the teaser across, so to speak, whether it be grassroots fundraising, educational events, you know, habitat management type stuff. You know, all facets really, man and regional director is a pretty interesting job because you know, you wear so many different hats at any given any different times of the year, obviously, but umb, so I oversee those guys, um, you know, make sure that furthers out there doing what he needs to be doing and uh and such. So that's, in a nutshell, that's what I do, among other things at the home office responsibilities as well. So so so I understand you have an interesting kind of history as a hunter though too. Um. I've heard rumors that you've spent a lot of time with the Wenzels maybe back in the day, and you've kind of been all over the country hunting and shooting term and archery and stuff. Can you fill in the gas on that? Yeah, um, I guess you know. It's I'm really fortunate to work, you know, for the Quality of Deer Management Association. I say that because everything I've ever done in my life, one way, shape or form, is revolved around a white tail deer, even from an early age. So I started shooting archery at about eight years old, um, only because I was just extremely fascinated with bow hunting. I wanted to be a bow hunter really bad. And um, interestingly enough, my parents weren't really hunters. Um My dad hunted. He was the type you know, he may hunt the first day of Pennsylvania gun season, you know, with the other one million hunters, um type of deal, but you know, never bow hunted or anything like that, and or whatever reason, I don't know why I was. I had a friend in you know, like uh, grade school that his dad owned a small archery shop and it was within walking distance to my house. It was just a little, you know, like twenty five by thirty building type of deal, like a garage, and I was just fascinated by everything in there, you know, the art, you know, the bows, airs, the broadhead, even the smell of I can still remember the smell. Um and it it literally, you know, it took my life over trying to be a deer hunter a bow hunter. Uh. And then on my own, so um, I started shooting a bow only to be a bow hunter. And then that kind of led into a couple of local tournaments you know, here and there, and then you know, I started traveling on weekends as it used to the bigger national three D tournaments this have been back and like, uh, um, you know, so I shot all facets of archery through the early nineties. I actually shot and end up doing pretty well at one time I think ranked third in the world. But as a as a youth archer three D archer. Uh, back then it was just the I v O of the a SA had probably just gotten started, so it was the impio more so back then. UM, I think my senior year in high school made me like the summer between my junior senior year, I decided that when I shot my first pro tournament. UM. So I shot my first pro tourament in Bedford, Indiana the I b O, which was pretty cool. I shot my first pro tourament with Randy Almer. You know, he's a kind of a legendary bow hunter, so I was placed in a group with him. Um it's you know, really neat, but you know, and then it just kind of grew from there. I did a longer student and a lot of hunting. Um. Somewhere around that same time, that nineteen time frame, I can't remember when, but I met Uh. I was uh, you know, kind of working in the industry, you know, going to shows and such with the archery industry. Uh in the summer. When I say working, it wasn't like it was a real high paying job. It was just basically they needed somebody stand at the booth. So I went and did that, and they paid me like five blocks or something, bought me sandwiches. But uh I met uh I met uh uh fellow that was working for I believe it was Dart at the time, Dart Interactive Target Systems, the screens, the other darker ikes. I can't remember twenty plus years ago, but anyway, he was doing the same type of thing as I was. And I noticed his name. His last name was Winzel, and I was a huge Winzel fan from you know, in in high school when you put like your favorite movie and your senior you know, your your book type of deal. Mine was bo Hunting October White Gills. I remember, like I went to pretty big high school. Remember, everybody like, what's that? You know? And that was my favorite movie at the time. And anyway, this kid has his name, tax said Brat Wentzel, and I was like, you know, you know, working in the industry, I kind of, you know, going to know him the best and the relationship barrier games like yeah, buried my dad, Like, oh my god, kid, mean then you know him and I ended up becoming and still are, you know, best of friends. And through that you know him, I got you know, Matt Burry and Jean and uh, hunting with them and you know, hunting out with them and you know whatever, just about everything with them. And that's probably when I really started, Um, I guess hunting my my craft as far as if somebody would call it in another industry, I guess learning the skills of a white tail deer hunter. Before that, I like I've said it before, it's a couple of my buddies. And I was like a wolf. It was the law of large numbers. I just I thought like if the harder you hunted, the better the outcome would be. And I just basically just hunted every minute I could, you know. And I don't really know if there was any calculations or you know, methodical thinking behind anything I did back into the early days. It was just pure desire to be out there. And uh sometimes I even still hunt some of the same ground. And I remember, you know where I may have had a spot where I hunted in the ship my head thinking what was I thinking? And and other times I walked past spots that I didn't hunt with thinking, you know, man, what was I thinking? I remember this being all tour up with sign and I've walked through it to get somewhere else. Um, so yeah, I really I really started paying attention to the details, probably when I was around you know, nineteen, I guess, Um, so I'll be forty two this year, so I guess a little over twenty years. Um, really start paying attention to details, and probably more so than anything because of the Winzels and and even to take a step further, probably Barry uh really you know, hung out with him a good bit and learned a ton for very one. So he's I used to say, like the uh literally you know, like the Tiger Woods, you know, to golf and Michael Jordan's to basketball. He just he just had a knack that was really, I say, had just I just talked to him yesterday. He's seventy four and stilled on it. But um, he has a knack for figuring things out or seeing things in the woods that you know other people may overlook, or just thinking a little different. Really can't even I can't even describe, you know, and that's anybody you know, in any craft with a gift, they just they just have that that little bit of an edge. And he definitely didn't and definitely does a decent job explaining it as well. Mhm. Yeah, Well, so when it came to that that influential experience you had with Bear there and you're growing up and now you're in your twenties and you're starting, like you said, hone your craft. Was there any kind of ah ha moment that maybe he pointed out to you, or maybe you kind of figured out yourself as you started implementing some of his ideas when you were actually out there in the field that you're sitting at home and thinking about things like, I'm almost curious for people like when their light switched moment where they went from you know, struggling to to kill deer consistently to kill mature deer consistently, and then they flip the switch and they get this moment and they said, oh, if I start doing this big thing, or if I start thinking about this big thing and then everything kind of starts moving in a different direction. Do you have a moment like that, think of Yeah, definitely. Um, it's it's funny, but I can almost specifically put my finger on it. It was, you know, it was when I started to understand when and and how a deer used its nose, right, um, and then to take it a step further, when you I went into detail and breaking down how well it deer smells, you know, and and just in Layman's term, to try to be rather quick. You know, we have somewhere between five and six million old factory censors in our noses. A German shepherd has somewhere around two and a thirty eight million, and a wait till deer has somewhere around three thirty millions, so um, over three million anyway, But you know the point is, you know we know how well German shepherd smell. I mean, some German shepherds can detect cancer in humans faster than or quicker than in the world's most recent you know m R I machines and and you know cadaver dogs alerting to dead bodies through two hundred foot of revel in the World Trade Center disaster and that type of deal. So when you when you put it in a perspective that a deer actually can smell better than them. Um, it makes it's it's an eye opening, you know moment for you like, man, I really need my scent to be going somewhere other than that deer's nose or you mean you're especially for a bow hunter. Um, you know when you're when you're talking, you know, back in for me inside that thirty yard line. You know, you definitely have to pay attention to those those minor details that puts that in your favor. So it was, it was as soon as I started understanding the wind and direction, maybe not so much thermals at that point, but the air current because there's a difference between wind direction and air currents and how well it deer smells. And to do what I can to keep you know, an animal from smelling me is when you know my it probably went like I remember struggling just to to see a mature buck. You know, like even if I saw it off in the distance, I felt like I was succeeding, like, oh man, there's one wow, cool, you know, there's a hundred yards away. But whatever I finally saw, you know, and then then a mature buck was you know, a three year old. You know, if I saw a three year old. Back then, I was ecstatic, right, and then you can slowly and I started picking up on the little things, and you know, the next thing, you're seeing them quite you know, pre raggling, and you know, all of a sudden, you know, you get that first one, it walks by ten yards and it's completely you know, you're you You've went undetected. It just it just flips, you know, and then you just start so many of them all home. I must start coming to you. And he usually come to me in the middle of the night. It's weird. I've I have woken up at you know, three am with a man. It's just like something that's clicked in my mind of of an area that I'm hunting on a ridgeline, you know, all this different stuff I had taken in, you know, maybe just from the last four or five trips walking around or whatever, and then something would just click and I know, I know now exactly where that stand needs to be and why and when you know on what wind and what's going on. And I've had a lot of those three o'clock in the morning. You couldn't have you couldn't have tied me up better because this topic that you just mentioned wind and thermals and air currents and and all that. That's what I'm really really interested in picking your brain about, because I know you've done a lot of thinking on this and a lot of work around this. Um. So to start things off, can you elaborate You mentioned a second ago that wind kind of wind direction is different than thermals, is different than air currents. Can you help us understand how those are different? And and I guess in the context of hunting, sure, Um, So you know, wind direction is basically whenever you you know, wake up and you check your favorite uh whether app or whatever you may be looking at it. You know, the winds out of the southwest this morning at seven miles an hour, so that's what you know. The direction the wind is coming from. So it's coming from the southwest and heading off to the northeast. Um, you know, that's your wind direction. UM. Air current especially, and it changes whenever topography changes. So you know, I've done a lot of hunting in the Midwest. As you have, UM, you know, gets flatter, so air current it becomes more steady in the Midwest because of flatter topography. But uh, you know, and the mountainous regions of Pennsylvania, like where I grew up. I grew up hunting the big ridges, you know, steep ridges and deep valleys. Um, the air current you have to kind of think of the wind, you know, or the direction of the wind like water. Um. You know, then it hits those ridges and it creates eddies. And I've seen it do it with rocks. I've seen it clumps the trees. So you have the wind direction coming out of the southwest, and then the air current is what happens after. You know, you get that steady wind out of the southwest porcing against a ridge line and just creating you know, basically perpetual motion as it will. We're an eddy, you know, like in a stream, the waters that are editing in the current behind a rock or front of the rock or along or whatever it may be. And the stiffer the wind gets onto that direction obviously, you know, the more quote unquote perpetual motion that it creates. So uh, that's the current. Uh. And then also there's a drift to that. You know, when it picks up when you get higher speed like today, it's uh, it's all over you know, it's gusting like twenty five. So then you'll have this gust and then there's gusts will stop and you're having that columnist in between. But because of that that twenty five in our power, before of that gust, there's there's a drift effect. There's even there's still a current there um. And you can test that with milk weed um, you know, throwing it up. You know, right when a gust takes off, and watch what it does not being blown by you. And when whenever you feel that that wind basically shut off, you know, that gus shot off in between those you know, you may have two gusts, you know how like that calumn in the middle type of deal. But you'll still see that milk weak um. You know, it's doing crazy things because of of that drift effect or you know that perpetual motion if you will, there's still forced behind it um. And then you know it'll kind of dissipate. And then of a morning and I was watching this this morning, matter of facts, as the thermals, as the sun got more over hind, the thermals were heating up. Um. You know, like to say, like seven thirty eight this morning, my thermals were still falling close to my tree stand. So I had a pretty stiff wind um so my milk weed, so speak was going you know, a certain direction. The wind would die down, but the milk weed continue to float in that direction. But when it died out with no power behind it was interesting because the sun hadn't heating up the forest floor right where I was at. It wasn't it wasn't overhead enough. My thermals were still kind of falling. It was still colder down there, so it was literally suck that milk weed straight down to the ground. It was and I was kind of playing with the time and it just right to to do it in that that I don't know what to call it. That that lag of wind, you know, in between gust and whenever that that that milk we would run out of drift when run out of power behind it, the thermals would would pull it directly to the forest floor. Which is interesting to know what was going on, but it also was very learning to me. This isn't good. I mean, you know, I'm trying to you know, did a deer than twenty five yards of me? You know, Mortson, My scent just dropped right you know where they're going to be standard types of deals. So um, when you start paying attention to that stuff and you know, it's uh, it's it's very helpful. Uh. Back in my early days, I used to build fires and and study fire and smoke um just too. And I would basically would create like a a smoke map and overlay over top of my maps just because I hunted such steep train that you know, just because it would say the wind out of the west. It don't necessarily wouldn't hunt like it was out of the west. It may hunt like it was out of the southeast and north. It's just because of the edding, edding, editing, edding effect. Um. So yeah, I would build fires on my platforms in like coffee cans, you know, in the off season, some you know, sometimes two or three times a day morning, noon, and evening on the same wind direction, and then do the same thing on a different wind direction. And you'd be amazed of what you would learn how smoke, you know, how the air currents you know, float around your tree stand um on different wind wind direction days and different times of day as well. And then also how like I say, clumps of trees or rocks or a hillside could cause the adding the effect. So you know, wind out of the north, you know that your smoke's going to the south of you. Then all of a sudden, you know, catch a ravine or catch a big clump of trees and start adding and you know, spin right around you and end up fifty yards to the north of you again, you know, and and do that all over again. Um. Interesting stuff for sure. Yeah, that's it's one of those things that I've heard, you know, like kneeling. Craig Doherty have talked about doing that kind of thing a lot, developing that wind map, and it it makes so much sense, but it does seem like a tremendous amount of work to go out there and map all that. But I guess once you have that information, once you know what it does, and maybe maybe you pick your handful of top spots and then you you know, make assumptions based Okay, we get most of our wins during hunting season, maybe northwest and west, so I'll go map those things out if that's at least a good starting point. Um, it seems like a great way to do it. You also, I think I've heard you say, um, you can use those little like fireworks, smoke bombs and stuff to achieve the same thing. Is that right? Yeah? Yeah, I would buy those things out at any time I saw them on cell. They used to make different songs. The little ones don't I don't think they they do. You know, there's little they're like little cherry bombs or whatever. They don't put off enough smoke. But they used to make bigger ones. Um. And then you know when I traveled, you know, through different states and they have those fireworks stands always stopped, and then they make them all sorts of different colors, but the bigger the better because they last longer. And like I said, if that doesn't work, I would, Uh. I've used those gun oil packs. Um, I've used con se caned. I mean, I've burned just about everything you can burn on the platform. But you're right as far as it's very time consuming. But the idea is I think I think the learning lesson from that is because I don't do it any more. I mean I've done in a little bit just to test some hypothesis type of deal. But the idea is to get an understanding for it and then like you say, pick those those certain spots or those certain situations where you know that you're not going to run in because you can eliminate those areas. Um. That's what I think I've probably taken from that the most was there's just some spots I don't hunt anymore, no matter how great the sign looks. Um. And again, you know, it depends on what age class of the year. Hunting too, I think has a big you know, there's a big difference between a two year old and a four year old and even a five year old or six year old. So you know, there's a lot of components that go into that. I wouldn't expect everybody to run out and you go, oh, I have to do it this way. You know, how often, you know, how much of the season do you have the devote to hunting, like if if if your seasons you know, six six and a half weeks, like in Pennsylvania, and you've only have a couple of weekends here and there in a couple of vacation days. Well, you know, you know, don't not hunt because the wind direction isn't suitable for your spot, you know, find another spot, or you know what, go and enjoy the day anyway. Type of deal. Um. So There's a lot of factors in there that go into you know, how often you can hunt the property you're hunting in. And I think probably one of the most important things is the age classes deer trying to hunt as well. If you're really trying to target on the specific book that you know is four or five, you know, plus, then you should probably pay attention to those details and put the put the odds in your favor as much as you can. Yeah. So I want to make sure and and further make sure I don't forget to do this. I want to make sure that we come back and talk about some of these stands that you end up writing off is saying, or stands or areas that you just find out you can't hunt because of something to do with the wind. Um. But I want to I want to rewind a little bit to just kind of set the stage a little bit better for people that maybe you're new to some of these concepts. Um. So you talked about how you're paying attention excuse me, you're paying attention to to wind and thermals and currents. But I want to understand this in the context of an example, so I can see, like how you think about these things. So maybe because you use today's hunt because you were out hunting this morning, as you just alluded to, could you tell us what you were thinking about leading into that hunt? So maybe this morning when you were planning where to go or why you were going to hunt or anything like that, can you explain to us how you thought about those three things when their most current, and what aspects of that you were thinking about to choose where to go, when to go, how to hunt today, and and and then maybe walk us through the hunt and how things ended up impacting things. Yeah. Um, actually today it was my first set of the season, and I'd just been you know, busy with work and everything. We were extremely hot, I think once you know, last week we were pushing ninety degrees a couple of days beginning of last week, like last weekend, in the last week, um, excuse me, the week before last, not just the other day. UM. And I think Thursday a front came in and literally, like within about thirty six hours we have like a thirty five temperature difference. Um. And as you know, you know it just when you have that big change, when you go from one constant a big change, and you know, starting to another constant that really gets deer on their feet, especially in October, in the middle of October. So I was really looking forward to trying to, you know, just find a time to get out here this week. And I was watching the weather, and you know, I knew this morning was gonna be my only morning. And I went and pull my cards on Sunday, and um, one of my my biggest buck on the farm I'm hunting. He was just just everywhere. He had been prancing around all week, last weekend, the day like that when obviously when that when that big temperature change kicked in, I had most of my cameras on scrapes and he was at about all of them. Um. And I know him well for the last two years. He's a five year old, and I purposely stayed away from him today because the wind was gonna, like I said, the you know, steady of around fifteen and gusting up to around twenties five. And it has some topography to at the farm that I hunt and the stands where I know he was frequenting, you know, the areas his core area and I say home core area. Um was in an area that the winds will swirl on you when they get to being pushed around that much, that that high of wind, and I didn't want to go in there and risk um having him out doing his thing and winding me. So I literally went to a stand and from one end of the farm the others, probably as far as you can get it might be a mile eas Uh, it's a pretty big place, but it's probably you know, between a quarter and a half mile from the center of his core area. It's basically just the fringes, but it's a really good spot. I call it the inside corner sometimes the corner pocket. It's an oak flat on the on the corner of a planted some Egyptian wheat and some other native grasses in there, about a five acre field, and it's just gotta laying around it, and it's the perfect little pinch of this oak flat kind of comes to this inside bend on a steep ridge. And I went there thinking, you know, I'm gonna stay on on that tude area, just just be great to get out and have a sit and you know, kind of get the season started. It was a really nice cool morning, forty two degrees, but the wind was high um and also, you know, I was hoping to get a dough um then Philideltag type of deal. But the only, the first and only during I saw this morning at eight oh two, uh, coming up this ridge work in this scrape line was that buck, you know, like, oh no, and intant me as soon as I saw, and I start didn't get worried because he was very nonchalant he was. I watched him work four or five scrapes, you know, maybe in a matter of sixty yards, and I mean he was really getting into kicking out the scrapes, making rugs, working overheading branch branches, and you know, he was just coming right up to shoot. And literally the funnel he was in really narrows down like thirteen yards from me. And there when I got into the stand, there was a fresh scrape about I don't know, less than six seven yards from the base of my tree. So and he was on that direct course and he was coming, you know, he was gonna work these scrapes. And I just as I mentioned earlier, I had just before that was, you know, doing the milkweed thing and watching the milkweed, and my thermals pulled that milkweed straight to the to the ground, you know, inside the ten yard line on my tree, and it's just it was like my you know, worst casecenar. I was excited to see it. He hadn't right at me, but I knew that it was only anotter of time until until he uh turned inside out there and you know, he kept working his way up and and he got to a scrape that was about it was actually twenty four and a half yards arranged it later, but he was severely quartered to was almost coming right at me. Um, And what happens on this how this funnel ways, it kind of bends around, and I'm like right on the bend. So when he leaves that scrape, he's actually going to go in behind my tree like ten eleven yards, and he's gonna be like quartering away, you know, twelve thirty manials to get to this other scrape. So it was gonna work kind of perfectly. But because of of my thermals, the wind was it wasn't going towards him, it was paralleling him. But those thermals being pulled down to the ground and and those big gusts, they were just creating havoc um And and you know, I just knew that and you know, I don't I knew better, you know, I guess, you know, like I said before, you know, I probably shouldn't have been hunting on that trying to kill a buck, but I was staying away from him, wanted to shoot a dough and also just wanted to be out there and join it. You know, I'm kind of holding my bow and I'm just like, well, maybe this wouldn't work. At this point, I'm starting to like, you know, like, man, this might just actually work if if this wind just keeps down long enough, and you know, maybe he's not going to pay attention to to all the details and he's just the one his thing and you know whatever. But uh, yeah, he took a couple of steps out of that's crazy patting my way, and it was like he hit a wall and and I mean I literally, you know, his posture immediately changed. Um, he didn't blow out of there like I body whatever. He kind of you know, he moved his head around a little bit too, and I could see him moving his nose and he must know the wad in one instance, because I mean and he turned and took two big hops and put some distance between me and him, and he stopped again, and at that point he was you know, maybe there were some brushing and he just literally just kind of change direction and just walk straight down over him and you know, got out of there. But you know that that was the scenario this morning. I kind of knew that going into there with those high winds. And again that's the difference between you know, the Midwest and a lot of times, a lot of those deer in the Midwest, that high state, when they like that, that that sense of comfort, you know, knowing that they're always their nose is always keeping them safe. But when you when you add topography to it and you get those gusts and that wind starts to swirl because of you know, like where I was, there was a steep ridge basically to the south of me, so I just had swirling winds. Um. You know, it could work against you. And a lot of times I think that that's that sixth sense. I'm sure you've all or we've all heard, you know, when you're talking group of hunters and somebody will say, you know that those those deer, especially those older ones, they just have that sixth sense. Um. I don't know. The more I do this, I like to think that that sixth sense is just those deer really really knowing, you know, how to use the terrain and the wind in their favor all the time, and then the hun completely understanding what's going on around in that sixth sense, like you know, if your thermals are on a rise, are on a fall the morning of an evening and editing air occurrens and stuff, you know, why you're sent actually went to that deer's nose. Um. I think that that that's that sixth sense that we see. Yeah, so, so I want to kind of unpackage a bunch of things that you talked about there. Let's talk about topography first. Um, can you explain or give us some examples of how different kinds of topography will mess with the wind? You know? The one that stands to me always, um is like if you're down in the bottom, Like, if you're down low, there's that swirling Um. Can you can you leverage on that in any other kind of topographic features that seem to have a consistent effect or something that you always keep an eye out for or aware of. Yeah. Sure, And it changes throughout the time of the year because of sun position, right, especially when you're talking topography and thermal's um, a north facing slope gets less sunlight in November than it does July. That makes any sense because the suns of your head so and the north facing slope is always your coldest facing. So that's the one that always sticks out to me, um when you're hunting a new facing slope, especially you know, we as being in the three stand deer hunters end of October three Thanksgiving. Depending on how steep that hill is and how high on the hill or lower you on the hill, it may be pen o'clock in the morning before the sun is i'll high enough, or even later. Uh, you know, to change those normal so, you know, and I've experied, I learned that through a bad experience of a really good scenario. Here is if you can picture this, and uh, the ridgeline running east to west um on the on the west side of the rags almost excuse me, on the east side of it, to the northeast, it was like a bowl almost of a thicket and every little nasty thing you could think in there, and maybe a topless twenty acres or so. And I just knew that, you know, I didn't really call it a betting area, but deer state, and it's just always does it's around there and everything and this regionally and you know, ran east to west from this this betting area, and so the deer would come from the west basically like it kind of angled, so they would come from the northwest across this north facing slope if you will, if you can follow me, um and then you know, heading to set check this dough betting areas I called it or whatever. Um on a northeast wind, and I had hunted this. I was about three quarters that went up on this bridge. And as I was scouting it, there was a SEEPI or a drainage that came out of this rich line had basically forced movement around it up it so that the deer walking across the hill, they would come to this big drainage just seeping out of this this north facing slope, and rather than than across it was rather steep, they would they would just overtime. All the trails just funneled around the top of it. You know, it's like a no brainer. When you knew what was going on, you know, you hang on, you know, the the south side of that, and you know it funnels all to do the type of dealing on the northeast wind. You know, it would only make sense that a buck could scent check that dough betting area, um, you know, just with his nose, you know, from seventy five yards away, type of deal. So I hunger standing, you know, putting way for that first northeast and and I've got in there and every you know, the winds out of the northeast and every gear that first morning, I'll never forget this, you know, to the north and me was blown. It was. It was a bunch of those and little ones and you know they're you know, thirty yards twenty yards and you know to the north of me, and you know they're just hitting my wind. I'm like, the winds out of the north, there's there's no way they should be smelling me. And I hadn't tested it, you know, I'm like, when the world's going on here, this is probably you know, ten years ago. And finally, you know, I went back in and with the whole fire deal, I'm like, I gotta figure this out, and you know, built a fire. And what was happening was that there were light wind days. And again, wind speed has a lot to do with it, you know, I'd like to think, I don't know, I've never really measure, but somewhere over eight millon how wind gets kind of forceful, so it forces your scent or whatever in the direction it's coming from. So it's basically pushing it with enough force that it will get it there. But when it's less than that, a lot of times, you know, your center to that hand and it becomes heavy and it just kind of gravity takes its toll, if you will, especially on those cold thermals, but they are pulling, you know, towards the earth surfaces. And that was this exact occasion. It was, you know, one of those old Chris November mornings. Was hardly any wind at all, um you know, very overcast type of day. So I call that heavy air, you know, very heavy air type of day. And the sun was up, but it wasn't up high enough to where it was, you know, reaching the forest floor on that part of the facing slope. So my thermals were, you know, working as if it were over the evening. My thermals, you know, my sense you know, coming out of the body, if you were I don't fire, you know, it's going up a little bit, but it was cooling down rather quickly because the air temperature was cold, so the smoke's cooling down and they cooled down, it were going to the north a little bit with the north wind direction, the smoke to the north a little ways. But once it got cool enough and then its thermal started pulling it, it would literally, you know, pull it to the ground and then suck it, you know, back down to the bottom, which would be to the north of me. So that's what my sent was doing. If you think of yourself at a little fire constantly putting off smoke, um, you know, yeah, it's going the right direction for you know, a certain amount of time. But once that air cools down, once it cools it down you know from your body, uh, and those thermals pull down towards your surfaces, and then it's gonna go. You know. You think of scent or that smoke just as water on the hillside, and and even fog, if you will. Fog always lays in the lowest parts of the fields. You know, if you're going around and at a cool morning where the fog is, it's always just like water where water would pull, fog pulls up and that's usually you know, the lowest, coolest spot, and that's what your scent does. And and uh, I learned. I still hunt that that fence line, that's I call it the north Ridge stand um, but I don't. I purposely set a stand about eighty yards from it that I hunt until about you know, twent o ten something there, and then I get down and sneak over and that stands and get up in it, you know, around ten o'clock if you will. Uh, the sun is usually high enough and the thermals are now going again back up the hill, and it puts everything you know, right into my favorite there's deer that are scent checking that ridge line, you know, on a north wind that my scent, my thermals are going upwards and you know, to the south like they should be up over the hill type of deal. And I've actually shot there from that stand, shot box out of that stand, you know, getting in it ninety and I think the earliest I shot one at twenty after ten one time. I've shot them at eleven, you know, I think one in one in the afternoon one time. But yeah, that was definitely an eye opener for me. It definitely works. So to answer your question. That's one of the you know, the like you say, the topography, the low spots um and those north facing slopes, and they said you can use the layman the thermals and eliminate um stand lowcases. And you know, I've want to have all but eliminated the low ones. But it takes the perfect scenario for me to get into a low stand, and usually it has to have water around it. Uh, water can get me, can can do a lot, you know, get your scent where you want. It cools down the year and around you. Sort it's gonna pull those your thermals down to the stream and then you know, right out out with the flowing current almost so it'll your scent will stay right with the water type of deal. Okay, Um, I'm finding myself being pulled in like seven different directions at once. I'm trying to do Sometimes you have to stop me because I get going. So it's perfect. It's it's perfect because you're you're laying down all the different things I'm interested in. You're like kind of putting them out there for me. I'm just trying to pick trying to choose which apple to pick off the tree. Um So one of the things I kind of struggle with sometimes is knowing how to like rank or prioritize wind direction versus the thermal and knowing like when one is going to trump the other. And I think you kind of mentioned your threshold, but I want to make sure I'm clear on this. Are you? Are you saying that if you have a wind direction of more than eight miles an hour or so, that's probably going to trump a thermal effect, so that in that case you wouldn't be so much worried about the thermal sucking you down if you had like twelve or thirteen or fifty mile an hour wind blowing to you in a certain direction. Is that right? Or correct me on on that? Yeah, So putting on when you have them those you know, those perfect chris blue bird mornings, but not bluebird but low wind. You know, there's just hardly any noise in the woods, so low low wind speed um thermals really come into play. But usually when those crisp, cool bluebird mornings, is I call those uh light air days, you know, I call them heavy air and light air. But when you have that that high pressure, your therminals, you're you're your tumals, I like to think of it. You know, we grew up in the north and you know when you go past people's homes in January and they have a chimney and the stone pipes comes out of the top of their roof and they have a fire, and the stone pipes like ten inches and you ever see those the smoke out those pipes like keep a ten inch or maybe be just day out to twenty inches around, but just it just goes straight op in the air for as almost as high as you can see it. Those really light air days, there's nice, beautiful high prince days, and your thumbs are just going straight up. So there's since almost like in that stove pipe, it's just going straight up. Um. Those are the days and again that sixth sense that you can almost get away with just about anything. But then when on the flip side, when you have those heavy air days when everything is being pushed down to the ground, and you know you can again see those days, just build a fire in your yard a few times, you know you're and watch what the smoke does. Um. You know when your neighbors are you know, four or five doors down coughing because you got your you're burning leaves in your yard. Those are heavy air days, and that's exactly what your sense to be doing, so it's forced down. And those are the days that wind speed comes into play because if you're if those heavy air days are forcing your sent to the you know, to stay within you know, whatever ten are surface, then you need wind speed from a direction to move your scent where you need it to go. Hopefully, you know your your tree stands positioned to where you know, you know you're on the downwind side of wherever you're gonna walk if you need your scent to go that way, so you obviously need wind speed to push it there on those heavy air days. That makes sense. So so high pressure days are when you're typically gonna get those that air blowing up, pulling your scent up and out in a way so you can get away with a little more. And also we oftentimes hear the high pressure days or days that deer like to like to move a little bit more too, So that's kind of a double positive there on the flip side, right, you got the low pressure days which you usually are coming in with the front. Like at the beginning of the front. Right, you got a big storm front moving through something that's gonna be what you're calling a heavy air days, pushing things down. It's gonna make things a little more difficult unless you do have the higher wind speed that's gonna, as you said, push the wind where you need it, your scent where you need it. So that all that all makes sense to me now I think, Um, now, this is a slight pivot. But when it comes to wind speed and and dear movement, do you see any certain um you know, threshold of below this you know speed they tend to like it or don't like it, or above the speed they like it or don't like it. Um do you do you have anything there that you that you like? The key in on well, I think it varies regionally for the hunt. You know that you've flund a lot of listeners in upstate New York, you know hunting big woods. Um, I and I grew up in areas like that, and I've also hunted you know, Iowa. So it definitely, in my opinion, varies regionally, and definitely topography has a lot to do with that. But in the big woods, when you have you know, big mature you know, red oak and maple forest, and stuff, and that wind speed picks up and it stays a constant, and those tree tops are banging together and you know, swirling winds because of the ridges in the valley. Um, to me, dear tend to moves less now on the flip side, you know, on the other coin of that spectrum. And I've heard you know, when you've had more journal and how he likes higher winds speed. But I think that has a lot to do with it's a constant. Uh, it's coming from a certain direction. They can feed in bed with their nose in a certain position to to cover you know, their backside. You know, deer is a prey animal. You know, basically it's just trying to do everything to stay alive. So that would make sense that if it's being a constant that then they can always monitor that. But when it starts to scroll around, and then you throw in the banging tops of trees and stuff, that is now giving them another trigger to their ears, you know, to be alarmed. To um, I think it adds a little stress to him. And when they're stressed, they tend to move left. So I think that would definitely depend on you know, what part of the country you're hunting in for me? You know where I where I'm hunting now. You know today it was a perfect example. It was a high wind day and it was you know, steady twelve the sixteen or seventeen, and Gustin it was just the buck I saw he was actually moving. You know, it was eight o'clock. It was actually before the wind really started pick up heavy about you know, as the sun got higher and when you know, obviously gained speed and around ninety I mean, it was just, you know, it was just a bunch of nonsense. Really, I just it was just wasting my time. I didn't even say it though. Huh um. Interesting. Let's let's go back to what you were talking about two seconds ago then, which was water, and you alluded to that was you know, utilizing water as a as almost like a thermal pool was something that you you would would think about in certain situations. It would allow you to get away with hunting in like a low spot, like a bottom or a creek bottom or something like that. Can you can you tell us a little bit more about how water impacts all this stuff, thermal's, wind, currents, et cetera, and then elaborate on how you use that, Yeah, definitely, it's it's it's on the evening. Um. I mentioned before, you know, I tried to I hunt is I hunt higher in topography as much as I can, because obviously that's more constant um. But when you know, you start talking to different found hunters and starts, especially the RNA season, there was a lot of people that do a lot of evening hunts. Makes sense, you know, through the bed and then then the evening next when they do most of it. But umform topography to me plays a big rule in that, especially when you start dealing with order eh class dear and going on this or stumbled across the one. You just watching deer from long distance. I was watching the mature buck one time. He kept coming out in the field the four seasons. This is like mid September, you know, feeding in the beans type of deal. And he would come out in the same spot on a certain win direction all the time, almost religiously, and he would never other deer would feed, you know, within you know, a couple hundred yards of him, but he stayed within a thirty or forty yards circle. He would never really leave that circle. UM. And at the time he was either four or five year old, I can't remember, but you know what it was was he was feeding. Eventually later I fixed this side. He was feeding, you know, honestly with his head thou clover, and it was over the evening, every evening, and and he was basically in an area where all the the topography was pulling all the his the scent from around him. The thunals were calling down. He was in the lower spot, and he stayed in that lower spot because he could feed with his nose. You head to the ground. Those that are ground look up every now and again. But basically how all facets covered, because he was in one of the lower spots around them, and he's thinking about trying to get in there and hunt that deer. And he was where he was seeing was really from his betting area where I assumed he was betting. And the only spot I could get into was if I walked a creek, a creek bottom up and it had some that had water. And when you get to when I'm talking about the water temperatures is what does causes this? And you've only probably everybody has probably stood next to a stream and it's just always you know, more chilly down, it's corner next to the water. Um that has a that that's a positive for you if you're trying to you know, if your tree stands close to that water, then that that cooler air temperature in and around that water, especially of an evening a storm as are falling, will will funnel your scent you know, to the water. And then whatever direction the water currents going, your wind speeds not too high, and usually in the evening as when wind speed starts to die out again, that would that would not be the case if you had stronger wind speed, you know, forcing it you're sent a certain direction. But if you had you know, three or four or five miles wind, uh, really cooler temperatures in that water, and you could you can literally sit next to the standom thinking about and now I could take you there and you could sit next to feel the temperature difference. And you know, I was able to sneak up that creek bottom, um, you know, with the water in it, get out within you know, five or six yards in the creek bank and uh, you know, into the stand type of deal and and shoot that deer. Um he you know, he in his mind, I think he was you know as the safe as he could be. But I just found that one area where I could get in there and and him not be aware of my presence, And it was because of that stream. For sure. Do you have anything like that when you're hunting near big bodies of water, like hunting next to a lake or a really large pond or anything. Is there any kind of weird current or thermal effect of that? Um, I don't know if I have ever thought about that. Yeah, I don't know. I've never really handing next to a big lake. I hand hunted closer to some ponds, but um, I would think just thinking about it, you know, it would have to be a bigger pond because I think the statinant water especially they kind of whole heat like a swimming pull, the whole teet. But a stream, you know, moving water, especially in a mountainous region, is cold water. You know where the trout look, that's really cool water type of deal. Um, it would make sense if it would definitely change it, but it might actually change in the reverse. If there was a pond, that would you know, like a swimming pool sometimes if you jump in, you know you have an in ground swimming pool. An air temperature of a morning or any evening is quartered in the water temperature, you know, so the pool actually old heat um sometimes you know, depending on what's around and I guess how much sunlight it get, So there will be a lot of variables are but I can definitely see, you know, it'd be something words looking into. I never really studied it. So here's another thermal scenario. I'm curious on your thoughts about this is when I've heard some other guys talk about the hunt some hilly country talking about um what they call a thermal tunnel, where basically you've got a situation where you have a your imagine a ridge and you've got the wind blowing over the ridge, and you also they'll have a thermal rising. So we're gonna say it's late in the morning or in the afternoon when the wind or the thermals are coming from the bottom coming up the ridge, but you have a wind direction that's coming from the opposite side of the ridge and it's hitting that thermal, creating almost a tunnel effect. You've got thermal hitting a wind direction. Typically I've heard about this being about three quarters of the way up the ridge line. And then this this kind of this spinning tunnel of of wind. Supposedly, the theory being that this location about three cords of the way or two thirds of the way up a ridge. Because of that effect, bucks sometimes like to run that height on the ridge to try to take advantage of that. Have you heard of that before? Or if if not, does that make sense? Have you seen anything like that? What do you think about that theory? UM? I have heard of that, and I've heard it. I've heard it talk. I've heard it talked a lot when that'sked with the elk hunters. UM, but I've never I guess I've never really played with I have heard of it. Does make sense, um a little bit, But I think would have to do with winds. It would have a lot to do with wind speed. UM, depending on you know how much uh how much force is behind the wind, whether that would take effect or not. Okay, that makes sense? Um? Does does any of this stuff with thermals matter when we're not in country with a bunch of ridges and hills? I mean, if I'm in flat as flat ground can be, let's say middle of Illinois or something like that. Um, do you need to worry about this stuff as much sure. Uh, you know, just like today, you don't want even you want your thermals on a rise, especially for hurting from a treest and even even fifteen you know, twenty feet can make a difference if if you're in a tree stand twenty feet and you're a bow hunter, you know, hunting a specific deer, trying to get him within a specific you know yardage. Um, you don't want your your you know, if you're expecting the deer and where I was, I would call it this morning, like close quarters. That's a good example. You know, if the deer continued on, he's gonna end up you know, twelve thirteen yards maybe a closer. So when when your thermals are you know, going straight to the ground. I mean he's basically a ground zero. You have to have everything right, so yeah, topography or not. You know, if your trumbals are going straight to the ground and you're expected, you'renna be that close. You know, if you want to shoot that deer, I would just shoot him before he gets that close, because you know, he may not smell you at thirty yards, but he's probably definitely gonna smell you a ten uh, you know, and turn inside out once he does, because he's gonna know he's right on top of the type the door basically right underneath you. Um, i've heard, but yeah, but when so, I was gonna say that that I've heard you talk about these kind of days like that where you've got a low pressure, so a heavy air day that pushes your scent down, and if you don't have a lot of wind, you essentially create a pool of scent around you. Um, that just kind of lingers there. And in the context of that situation you were talking about, if you've got a scenario like that and you're in the rut, you wouldn't hunt all day like many other people would say, because you just are creating this scent pool. Is that right? Is that day here? That right? Do you avoid all day sits in the scenario? Like? Yeah, I do? And you know they're doing the show scene and you know, I feel like in January when we're all out there on shows. You talk to every year hunter in North America, and I've always found it fascinating how many people sit from daylight to dark in the same trease then all different fashions of weather. Sometimes I would say that that's fine and probably would suggest it. But there are other times, especially there's heavy air days, when I think just that I think of myself as like I said, I have built fires. I think of myself as a fire and constantly putting off smoke. And if I don't have wind speed and thermals taken my scent or that smoke in the direction where I wanted to go, it is I am just you know, constantly saturating my area. I would just only imagine that it would just can you know the pool of scent would just increase and get larger and larger and larger, you know, basically you know, twenty yards saturbination from my stand, thirty year and forty yar and fifty yard and eventually if I've sat there eight nine ten hours and I've not had wind speed to move, you know, to clean the airing out type of deal, and I've had you know, a low pressure gay and heavy air day and everything's just fallen to the ground, I would, you know, And I've kind of testing it, Ferry not specifically sent out the bit, but sat areas where I knew that was going on, really good areas and have sat there and just not seen deer Um, I guess the argument could be, well, you know, how do you know you would have seen here was a better day? And I don't know that, but you know you do that so add so many times. The likelihood is if you go, you know, if you know the area and you know how many do you have, and you know what's going on if you're not seeing deer. Uh, and on those types of days, the likelihood is I would think it only makes sense no how well they smell that if that's probably why. Um, So those days, I definitely tried to get to an area where I caught my dead zone where I know that I try to get my scent to pull in an area where I don't expect any dearer to be or come from, or I just I just chalk it up as if they get there, then it's it's, um, you know, I'm busted. And that's that's part of the game type of deal. We talked about all these scenarios now where we're thinking about trying to manage where our scent is going, where are smoke is going. Um, And so we've talked about ways that we can think about thermals too to our advantage. We've talked about ways that we can use wind direction to our advantage. Um, what about actual tools or products that can help us deal with this? So there's a there's a bajillion different scent control products out there, UM, ozone, sprays cover sense, YadA, YadA YadA. From your experience thinking about this and putting a lot of these things to the test, do any of those things work really well to combat some of the wind issues or is there anything that you recommend over another or thoughts on that in general? Um, well, I've never I've never fought with the ozone. It's become of nations basically because it just didn't really spend the one to spend the money on. Um Uh. I do keep all my clothes and sent free tubs. Uh you know, I Washman sent free determindent, I sprayed down um sometimes are and put you know a little bit of cover song on my boots type of deal. I keep my boots and separate tubs. I dress. You know, when I get out of my truck in the morning, I have with them out. I stayed on a dressed I answer all those I think it makes sense. Um. I trying to keep the foreign smells too, as as minimum as I can, but I rely more on trying to understand the wind direction and just keeping my scent from getting to their nose. I really feel like, you know, knowing how well they smell. Um, I feel like if you're no matter what you're doing, if you're sent you know, the human gets to it ears nose, they're gonna know it. Now, how they react to it is the you know, is the difference. Um. I've hunted urban areas you know, in Ohio, in Pennsylvania that are beer just used to to human spelled they're used to. Yeah, they're almost a different animal from some of that. You I grew up hunting into wods of Pennsylvania, so you can get away with some of that stuff. And I think even a step further, I think something are just have different personalities. You know. I don't know if I'd ever had a way of proven this about this saw. Some dude, older deer just didn't seem to decared, you know, and then I hear the littlest things set them off, just like some deer. You know, last year, I was hunting the buck that was a falling a five year old, and he reacted so negatively to you know, the grunt, the weeze, or rattling antlers. I mean literally, if I grotted at him, if I were weed at him or rattled antlers at him, he turned around in the other direction. And he was one of the oldest dude on the floor and one of the biggest. Um. I think it was his personality. I don't you know, I don't know what it is. Maybe he was beat up a lot as a kid. I don't know, Uh, you know, but it was. And other dear, it's just on the flip stead. I've had told you to come in all bristled up and just challenge you. So I do believe that they have personalities. Um. And I think some deer or more tolerant those things. When they smell it, some get curious. Um. I've had deer followed my cent trail, you know, to the tree. Well you would think they would turn around and run, and especially more so it does than bucks. But they they're very curious. They want to know, you know, what's going on over there and where is this thing at that I'm smelling. I don't think they necessarily associated with danger, but it's something that they want to investigate. Towny Year has a lot to do with it too. Um you know, early season when they haven't been hunting for pressure, you know, throughout the summer, I think their guard maybe a lot lower on the on their you know, a lot further down on the scale of what they learned to And then you know, you enter into five or six weeks of both season and followed by a gun scene before you know it, like in Michigan and Pennsylvania, million hunters have been in the woods. You know, they're just triggered by the smallest thing. So I don't tell me. You know, late season is way different than the early season as far as a lot of those those alarming factors, if you will. Yeah, yeah, I feel like I've seen a lot of the same things there. Um so so further, I wanna I want to get your thoughts over there, because for me, this whole topic of wind and understanding it. This is definitely one of those light bulb moments for me too. And I and actunately hunted for like eighteen years or something before I really started paying attention to win the way you should have. I probably would have done a whole lot better as a teenager if I was sharpened up on this Um. But when I finally did things start clicking. Now you're more of an adult onset hunter, late teenager on set hunter. Um. When you're hearing all this stuff from Ryan, where where are your questions still at or what are what aren't recovering that you that you're curious about. I mean, you've you've hit on a ton of stuff, and you've got to have like a notebook or something with all these with all these specific scenarios for different stands, because I don't know how you keep this all straight. Um. But you know, I didn't start really thinking about Thermal's mark until Jesus. It was probably on your elk count a couple of years ago, Um, when we were talking about strategy and where we wanted to be in the morning and in the afternoon, And then I kind of started thinking about that for deer hunting, but definitely not to the level that I should be. And I'm kind of having a moments right now talking with you Ryan, um about the place we hunted in Ohio. Um, there's just so any different scenarios that you're talking about, like, oh, that's why that buck did that, and that's why that dough you know, winded me there or you know, even the buck that I shot last year. UM, he came in right where he should have and I had a perfect wind, but he knew something was up. And I'm just kind of I want to go back and look at historical weather data because I think it was a calm bay and UM, you know, just thinking right now, he could have very well, you know, caught my cent just because of the thermals. UM. So yeah, it's it's like fascinating stuff. UM. One thing I wanted to touch on, um Mark you kind of asked my question about uh, you know us flat landers here and like you know where I'm hunting in southeast Michigan, we don't have a ton of photography. UM. You know other than water, Ryan, are there any like there's sort of natural features, UM and flatter areas that that could have an effect on you know, your thermals or the wind current. What are those kind of things that you're looking for in the flat areas? In the flat I mean, it could be any that's the flatter you know, you know, I know where they're talking about, um, those islands of trees and it could definitely alter wind wind current, UM air current. If you will, you know. So if you got a bit you know you're talking about you know, some of the agg agg areas where you have you know two hunderd acre corn fills and uh you know tannic or stand of oaks or you know what have you. Um those areas could definitely alter the wind the air current for sure. So any structure, anything that is rising above the air surface um and would allow you know, just like if you were displayed, if you were you know, had a chin hoose and were stand back and spraying water on it, you know what. You know, however, it would deflect or reflect that water. You know, whatever could do that to the air with you know, will in fact do it. The difference being out there is it's something gonna do it for a little bit of the time. U. What I mean is like if it would deflect or or you know, flu deflect the air, it would get back to its normal course rather quickly because it's not bouncing off of you know, five different things like in a region of of high topography. If that makes sense, Yeah, yeah, I got you cool. So if do you have a fault question, Josh, or should I pivot to another question? I think I think I'm good there. You know, I think I'm good. I just need to I need to spend more time building fires and tree stands. Please don't do that on any the farmers I hunt during the season. Um, and I'll get in there and start a fire to let you know how to go. Yeah, you have to have a lot of time. And that's all stuff I did. You know before I had any sense of responsibility as uh. And my mom used to saying that time me and she would just say, your head on all the amount of time I was wasted trying to figure out how to shoot it to hear, you know, And then she would tell why do you think these things smart? Hit him in my carner all the time? Yeah? I hate that when they said that kind of thing. It's not quite that easy to do. Um. So speaking of how it's not quite so easy, here's the here's the crux of the deal, though. I feel like for a lot of guys, when we start targeting this mature deer, one of these big first aha moments for a lot of us is understanding, oh wow, the wind is really important because deer have these incredible noses and we gotta make sure they don't smell us. So step one is figuring out how to try to keep deer from smelling us. Step two seems to be, though, how do you understand how a mature buck uses the wind to his advantage? Because right, that seems to happen a lot. And then with that knowledge, how do you hunt him? So how do you manage to keep this buck from smelling you but also be in the place where he wants to be because of the wind that he's trying to use to his advantage. That's like the the crux of the whole deal. Can you talk about I guess the first step being how you see mature deer using the wind? Are there any consistent things like mature bucks tend to want the wind doing x, or when they're gonna bed they tend to wire or anything like that As far as how you see mature bucks tending to want to use the wind or used to rain to take advantage of wind. Yeah, um, And again they can never say never, right, because there's almost the never. You know how that works. It's just there's always something you know that's gonna throw a variable there. So I'll say this, when we say a mature deer, you know, it's all in the abbe hold or some mature deer three. Some don't call mateer mature deer until they're five. UM. And I think with it's each age class, each extra year they have from three on take gains just a little more knowledge. But on the flip side, I think the order they get, the less they move to. So let's say order from after they're staking five. In my experience, I've noticed that their home ranges become smaller, their core ranges, core areas UM, and they move less but more deliberate. So for the most part, I like to say, you know, and again there's always somebody out there remember this one time when yeah, you know, anything can happen in a while. But for the most part of my experiences, UM, the mature dear order age class dear tend to move. I think they like to move with the wind quartering at their rear. So basically, if you think of you know, the cone shape, UM, when it gets their nose, if it's quartering to their rear, like they that gives them the biggest sense of security with their nose and then they obviously can see what's in front of them. And how I used to study this UM and they said, actually, how Barry and Jean did this back in the seventies. Uh, they cue me on it, but um, it should be late season or in the wintertime. And again in Pennsylvania playing snow as Michigan you could do this, but um, I would purposely walk around and try to jump a mature buck in its bed right and then track it backwards. Um, so when I knew it entered its bed undisturbed. Um. And then followed the toofprints in reverse and saw how they maneuvered from wherever they came from feet or he's this originally to get to hear and this that and the other, and how they used you know, how the wind was blown that day. So there's a ton of information to be learned from their tracks. And if you have a compass and under you know, know what the wind did that day or the day before, uh, and how they used the wind to get to where they where they were going to tape the deal And it was really I learned probably more on that with mature buck moved during you know that type of deal. And I did that for I still do that. That's you know, it's kind of like my early shed hunting. If I get out and you know, January February type of deal. But you know, I'm purposely looking for any and if I don't jump a buck, you know, you can tend to see a buck bed over a dough bed if it maybe a little bit bigger. Some of the urine marks in the snow and stuff, Um, I just track them backwards just to see how they were moving. Um, younger bucks, you know, the year and a half and the two in the house, they seem to be very sporadic, just kind of all over the place, like you know, and equated to people humans if you will, like a year and a half old block, I kind of equate to like a thirteen year old boy to nineteen year old boy. I mean, think of how active you were in that time frame. And then a two year old buck or two and a half year old buck to be over twenty or thirty, still pretty happy, you know, you still have that immature this to you, but you still, you know, kind of settled in your ways a little bit. And then obviously thirty and forty, you're just getting more set on your ways. You tend to move last. You know, you don't go to the gym as much you're getting heavier, um, and forty you know, forty to fifty to be year four and a half year old, you know, same type of thing. And then I noticed their core areas getting smaller. I noticed their betting areas becoming posted closer together. I didn't notice they betted in different areas. It's really surprised. One buck in particular, Um, and he did this for a couple of years in a row. He betted right next to the highway. Uh. And he tended to only do it in gun season, and I only it was in Pennsylvania and Ian it was he was literally at the time, you know, would have been a really nice buck, I mean nice buck anytime. But then there wasn't a lot, you know, it was he was the eleven point, like I don't know, probably right at one forty and I killed a buck with my bow that season, and um, you know, you know, you get one buck in Pennsylvania, you're done type of deal. So I was, you know, sitting the bench in gun season and I actually was, you know, just out riding around the first morning a gun season, like opening day a gun season, and PA is a huge deal. And it was just the right daylight and I actually cut this buck going into his band area. I watched, I watched him bed down the snow on the team and uh, I rode past him. Four days in a row he was still laying in the same squat and never I mean, obviously he probably got up at nighttime, but he went back there to bed four days in a row, and then on the last Saturday or a gun seasons two weeks, he was still there on the last Saturday. So he had found that little spot. And I never saw him there again ever after that. And then the following year I purposely went and watched for that. It was just to see and it was actually it was in a pretty high pressured area and lo and behold that buck a year later was betting in that same area. So it was fascinating how he had found you know, literally, I'm talking like a half an acre just deepending on what the highway to his back and he just you know, looked down through the what's type of deal and it was like almost in a little triangled area. Um, and you know, he just found the place to do safe. And I don't know if any hunter killing him, because I knew someone hunters at other end I can only imagine that he probably got I bet he ended up getting hit by a car, because a lot of deer get hit there, you know, after they would have shared or stuff like that. And it was crazy to me how he knew that that road could keep him so safe, yet it was probably what ended up killing because I don't think the hunter killed him. I would have I lived right there. I was sure enough had heard about it. But anyway, um, I learned all that, you know, I would go in there and follow his tracks and see how they moved and such. That's a great way to do it. That that's uh, it's it's so hard to tell what a buck is thinking or or factoring into his movements if you're just like seeing him and at point now, like if you show him show up, he pops out into a field, and if you try to make assumptions about how he got there, it's it's really easy to make the wrong assumption without doing what you just said, actually backtracking. Like that's such a smart way to do it. And obviously you can't do that during hunting season without probably blowing things out to some degree. But that's a really smart idea to do that in the postseason and and and be able to take those lessons to learn and apply them to the future year. Um. And that's probably why I'm such a poor stand hunter because of that type of stuff that looks for ship. But you know, back to, each deer has its own individual personality, and you know, back to for the majority of hunters out there, if you hutting a specific deer, to do that too. It's still beneficial to you to know how de your move and just play those odd You know, the deer you may be hunting may or may not be on that you know, but that's okay. If you're you're still at it. You're stacking the odds in your favor. So you know, if you're if you can and again those aha moments when you it sounds like a lot. I'm sure that your listeners, you know that aren't versed in this, they're like, oh my god, this is way too much information. I never hunting again. It's crazy. It does sound like a lot. I get that. But if you just start like thinking about a little bit and piecing it together, and you know, and the next time you're on piece little morning next season, it's a little more then all of a sudden it does click and you're understanding. You can look at the weather station and you see the wind direction and you know from past experiences you know what this. You know, whatever stand you have on this north ridge of the morning works little why and you know you can position you know, you know which way that they're gonna be using that. It's because historically, you know, traditionally speaking dear older age class box tend to move this direction. If they come the other way, then that's okay too. But you know, you it's all about stacking those odds in your favor, especially if you don't have a specific form that you can hang you and you're out and an odd hunting specific deer. Yeah. Yeah, And and this is definitely one of those advanced topics that that we're getting here. We're diving deep in the weeds. So if if you are new, do not feel bad if this is like whoa, this is a whole lot of crap. Um at the at the very basic level, you know, start kind where you said, Ryan, Um, this is one of those things. As you dive deeper and deeper and deeper, that's when it's okay to start thinking about things to this degree. Um. Do not feel bad for being a little overwhelmed if if you're if you're new. Uh. That said, though, we're gonna continue going down the advanced path for those who are at that point in their hunting journey. So if we're thinking that the deer as you described in some way or another are using wind in their favor to move, the issue I've you know, always think about that is okay, if if I if I'm expecting this deer to come to where I'm standing, like, if that's what I'm hoping for right where I'm sitting in a tree, I'm hoping he's gonna come here. But if that happens, and if we believe that a buck is usually going to be moving with the wind some in his favor so he can understand what's happening to some degree, many times that means that he's going to have the wind blowing towards him, possibly from where I am, although I guess the scenari you painted is a little bit more rear in quartering. So maybe you can get away with what I'm going to describe a little bit better. What I'm what I'm basically trying to get at is can you talk to me about how you think about setting up in situations where the deer has the wind in their favor, but you also have the wind in your favor. Um, Can you describe how you think about that and lay out how that might work. So this is where it gets. This can get into you know, the really advanced level and off into the wheats. But there's two There's two ways I hunt, Like if I'm going into there's two different scenarios I can and I know what you're saying. But if I'm hunting a specific deer like I was this morning, or not really hunting that deer, but in that scenario, a deer I know a lot of form, I know well, and I'm probably not gonna shoot any other deer than than that type of deer. I almost want I try to position to myself where my wind is almost wrong, if that makes sense, um, because that when I know how the deer using the terrain to get from point A to point being what they're doing. And let me rewind. The time of year plays a big role in that as well. I'm speaking specifically speaking, you know, from the middle of October to first of December, so not not those two weeks of run. But when those deer up on their feet, you know, trying to find a girlfriend type the deal for the most part. So they're they're covering as much ground they can, you know, while they're on their feet and they're using their nose to do it. You know, they're they're if they're older deer, they tend to be lazy, and they're trying to cover as much ground they can find every septide as quickly as they can. And get with that though, and then you entered a lockdown phase or whatever. But so how how in my mind, I don't want my wind almost wrong so almost paralleling like it's it's it's real close to being wrong, but so close to being like you're never going to get it better for getting is deer. You know inside of that twenty yard and rewind I stumbled on it. There's I still do a hunt with a recurve some but there was five or six us where I specifically hunting the recurps. Say again, I took that, you know, my fifty yard range moment from a compound found the twenty yard and recurp. So you just gotta figure those those spots out. And then also not only the wind direction being on this wrong the perfect spot, you know, being a really nearrow funnel where you almost kind of have them pinned in there, you know, type of deal. Like when they're there, you've got wind in your favor and they're inside of your wheelhouse and they have no idea that they just just walk right into the trap type of deal. Um, that's the perfect scenario. But that's the somebody again hunting a very specific deer, probably with history with it and knows the ground really well, you know, and understands how the wind moves around the ground and such. Um. For the most part, when I get asked that question, or if I'm explaining to people like, uh, you know, the different way is you're hunting an age class of deer, not a specific deer. So let's just say some of your listeners just want to hunt an older age class gear. So let's just say, you know, we're just loving for a two year old deer, you know, we want to killing a nice buck type of deal. Then what I'm trying to do is position myself to where if in my scouting missions or when I'm looking to talk down maps, I'm trying to identify those areas that are gonna hold fig numbers of deer, you know those and fallings and such, and then I'm going to look for those key areas that those transition areas that that or those hogbacks or funnels or whatever they be that connect those areas. So you gotta abating areas. Some calls over here and you have another one over here, Well how do they get from there to there? And then how can I get to you know, in between those areas the most undetectable, and by most undetectable, not walking through their way, but also taking a step further. I don't I think there are a lot of hunters mess up by waw came to that perfect spot within mind that they're gonna hunt the perfect wind, but while they were walking there, they're set was blowing to the area that they're expecting. The deer tay frm, you know as well as deer snow. I know a lot of people that much deer just was sent on me, you know, especially out West Montana, Miami. I know guys that do deer nudge is if you will, from a half mile away, just using their scent, that run deer on the block. September just by letting their their sent drift into the block September. So it's one thing to say of camin X tree stand and I've got everything set in my favor. I expect the deer you know, to be to the north and me moving from east to west. The wind is only the northwest and my sense going to the southeast, and this is the perfect transition point between those two spots. But yet they parked, you know whatever, three hundred yards from that that that area, and that they walked to their stand with the wind blown with into that area. So you have I think it's just as important to keep in mind entering and exiting with the wind end in your favor as well hunting into me in your favor. So again, when you're just hunting an age class of deer in that you know, five or six week time frame when they're gonna be on their feet the most in their life they're out there, do you want to find those those areas that they're gonna use their nose to check, uh for receptive those and find those transition points in between those hogbacks and those funnels that connect those areas, those little drainages. There's a little just those little things, you know, where they narrating where you know they're gonna walk through, and and you can even manipulate that. I've you know, I've cut tree down and and and I've even built snow fence. Uh you know that snow fence so as you can alter movement with that UM on a big ridgeline. Um. You know, I've I've struved that stuff up throughout the woods. And and you know at an angle you don't want it on a ninety, but as an angle, just like if you were to dump water on it, you know you wanted to go in a certain way. Uh, deer would come across that and they would get to that that orange snow fence. It's something like thirty set or thirty inches high twenty seven inches high. They don't jump over. It's amazing to me that they come to it and then they just fall it, you know, like where at the angle you have it on and then you stop at like eighteen yards in front of your stand type and there they are. UM and you know, maybe check your laws. But I know I think got an aisl one time, and it's not able to do. There's only a sixty yards snow fence, but it altered their movement. Um, so you can do that, and you know you when you're I was hunting with the recurve, so I needed, you know, in that that twenty yard range type of deal. So three interla. There's two two different styles that are hunt. I'm hunt a specific here. You know, I'm really getting advanced level there. You know, I'm going to try to almost have if I think that that he's doing most of his moving with the wind, you know, quartering to him a little bit. And again town of years have a lot to do with that. If he's if he's if it's the heat of the moment, like you know, there's two weeks in November and October and November kill Thanksgiving, then I would tend to think they probably move a little bit more of the wind and they're using their nose to get around rather than trying to stand alive. Their focus has changed just a little bit from that that prey animal and I know things are trying to kill them. They want to stay alive. That's my best way of doing that too. I'm trying to read and you know, sorry young type of deal. So, uh, that movement can change a little bit, but I still I still use the wind just where you know it's it's a very touchy wind right there. It's hard to explain on there if from doing a good job of it. No, you are, you are? Um, I want to I want to throw an example out at you of my own situation and kind of here, um, what you think about some of my ideas on this, or kind of putting what you're talking to into into actions. So I've got this deer I've been hunting forever. Everyone knows I've been talking about this stupid deer forever. We'll we'll call him h And I've got a spot on the edge of one of the main betting airs he hangs out, and that's that's to the west of me. I'm sorry, to the east of me, and I can't hunt in there because it's on the a ring landowners. So we often, though have westerly winds blowing from my side of the line into the bedding area where he's at. I've always assumed though, and based on pictures in the past, he most often comes out to my side of the line when we've got those kinds of winds, Because as you're talking about, he wants to have like a southwest or northwest or west wind where he can see what he's getting or smell what he's getting himself into. He's trying to use that usually quartering too into some degree when he's gonna come out to feed or check does or whatever in this area where there's there's a food source that a lot of does come to. But I have also historically hunted this area decent b now over the past three years, trying to kill this dear. So I've always thought I can't hunt there with a due west wind because it blows right into that stuff. Um. But I've always always the one time I've tried, or when I try to hunt him is usually when there's like a northwest wind or maybe a southwest wind, because I kind of, as you're alluded to, I think I can maybe cut the corners there, um, hoping that he's more west of me, You're sorry, more east of me, so that I'll go kind of angled beneath him. He'll still want to come out that way because he's got a quartering wind. It's in his favor. My hope being that the wind angle will be just enough off of that where he's coming from that will slip past him. So that's usually snare. I try hunting it in UM. So that's how I've done the past. Sometimes, though, do you end up still catching my wind because I am blowing in the general direction of the bed and cutting the bottom of it. So I've gotten blown out a handful of times doing that, and I'm almost excuse me, always kicking myself like ask you, I shouldn't have done that. Um. He never showed up, probably because I spooked some does and alarmed the whole area. Man, I can't talk. But going back to something you mentioned the beginning thermals and pressure, I'm wondering if I might be able to better get away with this kind of scenario if I'm in a situation where I have one of those light wind days where I have a high pressure day that's pulling up my there. So maybe I hunt this when I have that kind of quartering winds like a northwest wind. It's just off of where I think he is. But I might be able to get away with it even better if I waited for that scenario with the high pressure that's kind of pushing my wind up on Maybe that kind of lightish wind day. UM is my way of thinking through this the way you envision people thinking how to make these decisions, factoring in thermals, pressure, wind and how dear use all that. Yeah, But when I think, I don't think, I don't think like the every day bow hunter deer hunter goes into it like that. I think you know wind and thermals, or you could probably take thermals and air currents and how the equation. It's just when you talk one oh one and most people think of it wind and more so wind direction. Um. What you're explaining, I think is a very advanced level. When I think, you know you're probably onto something there. You know, again, those high pressure days, light air days, UM definitely give you the advantage. Then I think that quartering wind, if you almost that wrong wind, as long as it's as long as you know it's not going somewhere and hitting something and edding back into the area where you think is holding that deer, you know, I think that's probably your best bet. But I you know, i'd be I'd check on that first to make sure you know you'd somehow inadvertently your sense not entering that deer's betting area even when you think you have the wind direction, nail it down. But to answer your question is, yes, how you're looking at it, I think it's a very advanced and I wanted it's a correct way to do it. Um. But I think probably most deer hunters, you know, the you know, the one oh one version is just you know, the winds coming out of the north, and I want deer north of me, so I want, you know, my sense to the south. That type of deal. Very basic. Yeah, and then a great place to start, Yes, absolutely. Um. One final thing on the wind side of things that we haven't touched on is when it comes to all this stuff, does any of this change if you're hunting in a ground blind or a box blind versus a tree stane um necessarily changed. I found in a ground blind that it seems to be they're just they're just more in tune, I think, because maybe it's because if my thermals are going up, I'm on the ground, so you know, I'm down on their level. And then you know, quite on the on the flip side of an evening, if I'm in the ground blind, usually on a food plot, so then it usually is an evening in the early season, and um, I just find dear when I'm on the ground at their level of an evening. When I know the thermals are coming down, I just feel like they're high learned all the time. UM. Let's say I haven't had luck. I've I've had, you know, instances in luck where what they weren't alarmed, But um, it's I think it definitely gets trickier in the ground blind depending on the situation. You know, close quarters I like to call it. If you're in somewhere tight expecting them to be close to you. Um, you know you you you have to take in a lot of consideration to your scent and then also the noise that you make inside of it. Um. I've not had I've hunted out of the tower blinds in Texas. UM, but I don't have a whole lot of experience out of them. I basically hunt lock on everywhere else, lock ons and ladder stands. Do you do you think that any of these things when it comes to how you're thinking about wind do you think any of this is different in a public land or heavily pressured area versus big private property that's well managed and very little hunting pressure. Do you see any of this do you would you think about differently at all in those two scenarios don't necessarily differently. You know, I think the more information you're armed with again stacking those odds in your favors of benefit. Um. I think being able to apply a lot of the you know, this type of thought process on public land. Uh, it is more difficult to do just because you probably don't have history with the animals trying to hunt. Um, you may not have as much knowledge of the topography because you know, most public lands are pretty big areas. Uh, the pressure factor goes up. So I think the deer are definitely you know, they may move less, they're very you know, probably more on hotler, depending on pressure. So it just makes it more difficult to apply. But if you do understand it and can't apply it again, you're putting those odds in your favor for sure. Um. But you know, I hunted a lot of public land, you know, and honestly back in the day when you know, when I was just you know, late teens, early twenties, and I didn't even have a treat and I did a lot of hunting off the ground. I did a lot of steel hunting. Um, when the weather was right for it or you know, I did a lot of bow hunting in the rain and a rainstorm and just just sneak around and check on different areas, and I've shot a lot of deer off the ground, um, And you learn a lot when you get in close quarters like that. You know, scenarios tend to play themselves out more because you have a bow and you're on the ground and you know, for whatever, he couldn't get a shot off or this, that and the other. So just so the simple fact that you're there in experiencing it in a scenario is playing out um. Whereas if you were a down home or you know, maybe you weren't even there, you know, you didn't learn anything from it. So just the fact that you know, you put yourself in those situations, you get to learn from it. Um. I think access is the hardest thing on public plan especially. You know, when I was hunting a lot of public land, a lot of it was really hard to get to and you worked your butt off, you know, to get to it. You're tired by the time you got their type of deal and then you know, you had a hunt all day, change your clothes and you know this that you know, so it's definitely a unique set of challenges for sure. Yeah. And I know that I know that access, entry and exit and all that is something that that you really focus on is an important part of your hunting strategy when you're tireding mature deer. Um. And you alluded to it a little bit earlier when you said you want to make sure your winds not blowing into areas you think the deer are going to be when you're coming in and out. Um, can you can you give us some more detail into what you think about when it comes to accessing and exiting properties and and anything like the more advanced ways you go about trying to get a good entry and exit. Yeah. Um. You know, when I've been set up a property or new property type of deal, uh, you know, I look at the top of the maps and you do some boots on the ground stuff, and you know, the late winter, early spring, so you're looking at old sign and you know, just you're seeing where everything kind of comes together and where you need to be, and you know, you put an X on the map type of deal or drop a pin and then you know you look at the parking area and even if it's program and you still have areas where you can park type of deal, and then you figure out the best ways in there. Um. So just as you're looking for that stand location, I think it's in the late winter, it's just as important to look for those areas where you think there are going to feed come the upcoming both season and where they're gonna you know bad the upcoming both season. So where they're at, where they're gonna be coming from, and where they're gonna be going to. And then you say you have okay this, you know, you find in the areas just tore up with sign, rubs and scrapes and you know, inside edges and you know, has everything. Uh, then you want to ask yourself, well, I know that you were here, they laid down all the sign where did they come from? So then you need to find okay, and you men, you know, late winter you're looking at tracks, you know, and you're following backwards and you find a couple of thickets here and there or hill set its and you know it maybe you know probably that time of year it's just south facing slope to catch the morning sun and that type of deal. And then you look at all that so you have on your back you know where you want to hunt, you know where you think the majority that you're coming from, um, and even where they're gonna go if there past you type you know, once they passed you, and okay, then here's where I park. Now how can I get there? You know on a predominant in my areas, you know, the predominant winds or south southwest and west. Uh you get a lot of noitherally winds in late October, early November. So I'm gonna park only a couple of specific areas no matter what. Usually even you know, the most private farm, you know, you probably only have a couple of specific parking areas. And sometimes you're just gonna walk way out of your way and you may have to walk driving upstream bed or down the hard top road. I've done that a lot. You know. One of the neighbors where I hunt, he thinks I'm crazy, which just me, you know, me parting my truck at the barnom and you know, I walked, you know, between a quarter and a half a mile down the road past his house and and then it was above his house, and you know he's like, what are you doing? You know type of deal. But you know, then I get into a drainage and you know, I sneak my way into a stand. It makes all the difference in the world, you know where and when you start doing that stuff and paying attention to entering and uh leaving a stand site undisturbed hunting, undisturbed deer, your deer sighting, one of those talking buck sightings. But you know when you're going to stand, like you specifically when when you were going into a stand not paying attention to that stuff and you see two or three four deer and it's set and everything was good, and you know you're a happy type of deal. And then you really start paying attention to those little details. And when you use you see you know, two or three or four dear, and now you're seeing eight, nine, ten, and three of them were bucks, and one of them was a big shooter, and no one of them the most important part, none of them knew you were there. Um. You know that's when it really really cool feeling. Uh when to me, it's when you know it's not to me, it's that whole romance to hunting, you know why we hunt. Um, I really really enjoy that part of it. You know, I don't want to say as much or more than the killing part, because at the end of the day, we're all hunters and you know, we want to hold those big as at the end of the day. But there's something about having dear you know, parade past, you know, knowing where they come from, why they were where they were, you know, how they got the fifteen yards and shop and that on by you and had no you know, clue in their mind that you were there hunting down because everything was right, uh, and you specifically manipulated it to be that way. There's really something to be said to that that I think, really, uh, you know it really a lot of people are missing out on it's too much about the I just gotta get killed. But it doesn't matter why how we're aware and yeah, you toil the bucket. It feels good for a while, but whenever you really start piecing together of that whole, you know, that learning experience or the apprenticeship program if you will, and you become a journeyman, and it's it's a really cool feeling. And I guess it's a sense of satisfaction even like anything you know, you put your your work into. You feel better about the type of deal. But I really enjoy that. Oh yeah, that that the chess match, all of the work that goes into that. That makes you know, every time you see the antlers on the wall, or every time you take a bite out of that animal when you have a meal, It all makes all those things so much, so much sweeter when you know just the level of understanding that was required to get to that point, the level of work that was required to get to that point, the level of frustration and failure probably leading up to those successes. Uh man, it makes it all a whole lot more meaningful when you have to go through that to get to your end goal. Yeah, and it's it's such a hard thing to explain, you know. It's of the non hunters or people that may just be hunt a little bit. You know, I didn't understand, you know, but it's like anything else and you start, you know, pouring your heart into it. Um you know. There, it's definitely and there's nothing wrong with you know, being outdoors and enjoying all that. You learn a lot of a good Linth lessons out there the time to do. But yeah, it's just really cool, it is. It is so so speaking of this kind of process though, like getting to the point where we're like you and I are at maybe where we really want that difficult challenge um and and figuring out all the details. But also there are some people at the beginning of that journey. We're just trying to find any dear um. It would be an incredible challenge to surmount. Now I'm about to shift topics here, but before I do that, I want to take one last break today and think our partners at White Tail Properties. And speaking of new hunters, white Tail Properties puts out a series of YouTube videos they call their land Beat video series. I've been mentioning it every other week here they've got a new video out that I think new hunters especially or really anyone interested in becoming better deer hunter it might be of interest to you. This one dives into trail camera tactics, which trail cameras are one of those most incredible and useful tools for a deer hunter. You can learn so much about dear behavior, about what specific deer doing, or just how deer use a property, whether that be a mature buck or doze or young deer. Whatever it is that you want to target. Cameras can help you do that. So this quick video cover some of the basics, including when to hang them, where to hang them, and a bunch of things along those lines. Very simply. If you go to the white Tail Properties YouTube channel, you will see it's the most recent land beat video. It's called Trail Camera Tactics. Check it out, and if you'd like to learn more about white Tail Properties and the properties they have for sale, you can visit white Tail Properties dot com. Um talking about new hunters, I know, and I'm kind of shifting here to a totally different topic, but I do know that both you and further with what you guys are doing with the q d m A are really focusing on hunter recruitment, trying to help bring new people into the fold. And before we go too much longer with the podcast, I want to make sure we get to touch on that a little bit. Is that something you can can talk about a little bit what you guys are up to. Yeah, poor, you know, like I said in the beginning of the podcast, and really fortunately towards in the industry, you know, revolving around the white tail deer, because that's just basically have been my life. Um, and you know, we're at a point right now with the k D m A and and you know a lot of the other nonprofit uh conservation organizations out there. I mean, we're specifically focused on white tail deer, but um as they're the number one song after big game animal in the country, you know, and you start looking at the business behind that, if you will, you know there's a whole business side of that, and how much money the white tails white tail deer generates and how conservations funded through which I know you're aware of the Pittman Robinson acted such um. You know, the hunter recruitment rate is in a decline and in the last you know, ten years, we've lost about thirty percent of the license buyers. And you know that starts to equate two dollars and cents and then obviously a snowball effect, um you know when state agencies have to make cutbacks and and you know, so forth me was the big public lane moving out there, and licensees you know, driving force behind that as well. So you know, a lot of the nonprofit conservation organizations are doing everything they can to you know, try to you know, turn around the hunter recruminate at least slow the decline down. Um Like I said, we've lost thirty in the last ten years. Um, you know that's that's alarming in and in and of itself. Uh to think that as passionate as I am about you know, white tailed deer hunting, you're hunting in general. Um, It's all I've ever done in my life has been a hunter. Uh. It's literally all I've ever and I couldn't imagine, you know, I don't know what I would do, you know, if I didn't have hunting in my life, and I mean that last I don't what would I do in November. I don't know, you know, Like, um, so to think that this could potentially go away. I mean again, there's a lot of statistics out there, and we're not trying to you know, being the sky's falling type, But at the end of the day, you know, we've lost you know, a good amount of hunters in the last ten years. Uh. The average age of the license Byron right now somewhere around fifty six years old, and in all recents says there's a hard stop at seventy. So you know, there, technically speaking or arguably speaking, there's a shelf life to hunting as we know it did not do whatever, go away. But in the next you know, twelve or fifteen years, you could see a drastic cut um in funding for you know, this resource that we loved to chase around and chairs hope the deal. So you know, we're going We've really shifted our focus the first you know, we're we're in our thirtieth year. The first fifteen or twenty years we were very big in the habitat and herd management and overall you know, the wait till dear, you know, health of the herd type of deal and in the habitat um and now it's you know, the deer or gonna be okay, we gotta have people there to hunt them type of deals. So we're really uh focused on the youth. We have a big youth involvement there. Probably more so are the first time adult onset hunters. I think you mentioned that you talked you called Josh that earlier in the podcast. But you know, we find through research that taking a kid hunting is great, and we always have to continue to do that. The problem is, or the catching is if you take you know, a young person hunting today and they want to that tomorrow and you're not available, then what do they do. You know, they're they're stuck sitting the bench. Uh. They don't have a job, so they can't go out and buy stuff. They can't draw themselves to the owning property or you know, to a state man, whatever they'd be. So you know, we've shifted focusing. We among other Conservational visitors, have shifted focus over to the adult onsets the first time mid thirty mid forty something that have always had the desire but maybe nobody's ever taught them and asked them to go. Uh And just as we were talking been earlier. You know, if you have the desire thirty five thirty eight years old, sitting in a cubicle somewhere, you know, have always been interested in hunting, but just never had anybody really wanted to to take in. It's intimidating to try to do yourself, and it's even more so intimiding, you know to uh maybe ask one of your buddies, you know, in forty years on, Hey do you gonna teach me out of hunt? You know, like this watch your thing to do type of deal. So, uh, you know, we're putting some programs out there. We have are sharing your hunt program um where filled the fort program or we're trying to get more people involved in hunting. I'm actually leaving from one in the morning. Uh. It's in north central Pennsylvania. We have six first time adult hunters coming into camp. Um, we're gonna hunt Friday and Saturday to sets a day, morning and evening. Um. We brought them in back in August and went through a training day with prospers. I mean, we teach them dear biology, we do some habitat management, you know, everything there needs to know about it. Deal ever, teach them how to shoot, and we're gonna take them hunt to teach them how to porcher deer. And the idea is they want to be hunters, you know, they want to source through room protein and sustainability, and we want to hopefully give them enough knowledge to do that, you know, within a few meetings with us. So it is definitely a process, but it's definitely something we're extremely focused on right now as an organization. And I think that's I think that's awesome. Um. Now, further, you you have gotten to be involved in this a little bit already yourself, haven't you. How's that been? Yeah? Um, last weekend actually I was involved in one UM that was called Learned to Hunt UM, and this one was specifically about deer UM. It's UH. It was kind of a joint effort between uh Q d M, a National Wild Turkey Federation UM, the Michigan DNR Pheasants Forever has a role in it UM and they do these for different species. They have them small game Turkey Pheasant UM. Basically, what it is is we've got UM. We've this This program has received grants from the Cabella's Outdoor Fund where they've been able to go out and purchase crossbows and camo and ground blinds UM through that grant, and then also different branches UH and chapters will will donate money UM for these types of programs. So what we did is UH I kind of gave like a deer Hunting one oh one UM presentation on a Saturday morning. We spent some time at the range with crossbows and then we had there's four people there were supposed to have eight, but we had a just torrential downpours that day. I think scared some people away, but we end up having four people come and UM we were able to go out with mentors. Then those new hunters were able to go out with mentors in the afternoon on Saturday and then Sunday morning. We unfortunately didn't uh harvesting deer that weekend, but but they got a processing demonstration and a butchering demonstration and um you know, I think every one of those people left and said, yeah, we want to do this again. One gal that came had already purchased a crossbow. Um So, I mean, these are the people that are going to go out and start contributing funds to Pittman Robertson dollars and they can go out and replicate these types of you know, they can go they can go hunt on their own whereout where a youth that's gonna need a a family member or a friend or somebody to drive them to a spot where these people can go out and do that themselves the next day if they wanted to. Um, so, yeah, I got to do that. One one of our branches up in northern Michigan are Tipping the Mid Branch. They're doing a field of fork program where they've got three hunter hunting with mentors throughout the season and one of those new hunters shot at buck the first week of the season already and just a ton of great success going on with that kind of stuff. That's really cool, and it's it's it's great to see you guys and the different branches out there, you know, stepping up and ownating their time and funds to make that happen. Because it's one thing to say it, it's a it's a lot more to actually go and actually do these things. So it was I think it's pretty awesome, Josh, seeing you going out on these mentor hunts. You went and you did the youth hunt, uh. A weekend or two before that, you did a veterans hunt, um, and I know you're leaving again next week to do another youth hunt helping out people. UM. So I just want to say that as a friend, I I commend you and everyone else out there who is donating their time in this kind of way like huge props. I'm so glad that people are doing that. I need to do a better job of doing more of that. UM. I was hoping to be a meet up with you guys for that that first time Hunter event last weekend didn't work out. But I need to do a better job of that, and I hope that people listening. Hope there's a few people listening that maybe are are intrigued by the opportunity to help mentor some new hunters too. And if that's the case, Ryan, Um, how can a hunter listening get involved and and be able to get involved the programs you guys have out there to become a mentor or or helper with some of these things you guys are doing well. I mean there's a couple of different ways, and I'm glad you ask um each almost every state now and on every state, if they don't have a designated our three coordinators that's retain, react, activate, and recruit new hunters, Um, states are you know, state agencies are putting in an R three coordinator if they don't have an acting one, uh you know specifically hiring for that position they have they usually have somebody within the state that's covering that so that the force thing they can do if they don't want to be involved with a K d M, A branch or if maybe there's not one close to them, Um, you know, they can go through the state through there are three coordinator. They can definitely put you in touch with a hunter or a group of people or you know, the next event they have coming up, UM, or they can easily seek out a KDUM a branch. I mean we're not in everyone's back here, but you know usually there's one anywhere within the way, tells range, within driving distance. UM, reach out to them and and tell them that you'd like to be involved, or can be a simple with You know, you don't have to be involved with a group, and you don't have to be involved with the state at R three coordinator. You can just if you're a hunter, you know you can do your part by seeking somebody out and your work with or data heads with, or teaches your white school wherever it may be that one's learned how to be a hunter, take them hunting with you, teach them how to be a hunter. Um. You know, if just think about it, you know there's somewhere around you know, ten of eleven million deer hunters in the country right now, it's de counting who's doing accounting. But uh, if half of them took one person hunting next year, you know we can fix the problem in one year type of deal. So it could be something this is that simple. Seek out somebody that's never hunted before but has the interested. You know they run in your circles and take the time to take them to teach them to be a hunter. And I know it sounds like a lot, and even with me and I have a lease in Ohio, and but honestly, I've done this now for a couple of years. We've had kind of an internal ken m a challenge amongst our staff that you know, we're gonna seek out new hunters every year, you know, and and take at least one per uh. And we've done that and it is a very satisfying and gratifying thing to do. Um. You know it's not you don't mind doing it once. Once you get involved in seed, the level of enthusiasm that these people display, um, the appreciation they have for you taking the time out and and honestly, you develop some of the best friendships you may ever have in your life for hunting. And this is a perfect example of that. So you know, don't don't be you know, can be dated by it. Do think it's too much or you know, you don't have so much time The sport is depending on it. We need people out there to teach others how to become hunters. And you know, think of think of it as almost a sense of as your responsibility. Uh, just one a year. You know. Introducement doesn't have to be deer hunting either. That's another thing. Um, you know, there's nothing wrong with teaching somebody how to be a small game or take them squirrel hunting, take them rabbit right, take them feather hunt. Um, you know, just get them old than the outdoors and let them progress naturally. You know that that's that's how we're going to fix this for sure. Yeah. Now on the flip side, what if what if someone listening is a new hunter and maybe they want to hunt, so they've been listening to hunting podcasts they stumble across Wired to Hunt. Somehow they managed to listen to the very advanced stuff we talked about without getting discouraged and studying this thing off. What if there's a new aspiring hunter and they're hearing about these programs and they're thinking in their heads, WHOA, that would be amazing. I could really use a weekend mentor program. That would be such a great start for me. How can they get tapped in and signed up for a program like this? Where do they find that information? The same type of thing our website? Um, you know, we went from last year I think Josh we get I think two or three nationwide, and we're gonna do eighty or twenty this year. Uh and obviously we hope to build on for that next year. So our website we have a long are field defork programs listed. You get involved that way and then again, you know, through your state agencies and the other three coordinator I mean one song called to the state agency, especially with a specific R three coordinator. Uh, you know that's their job. If you're don't hunt a hunt, they're gonna they're gonna place you within the right people. Uh for sure. Awesome. Well yeah, I'll add one more thing to that too, is um, there's a lot of different resources out there, Like I know, just recently, a lot of us qd m A staff just became digital mentors UM on a platform called powder hook Mark. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that or not, but um, that's a great place for people to check out too and maybe be able to connect with a mentor through something like that where you can find people are willing to take you out. Um. And maybe you don't even need something to take you out, but you have questions for them. Um, you know, so many different ways to connect with with people and this day and age, and um, I mean that's do a Google search, you can you can sign people, I'm sure, get on Facebook. There's groups or you know, like I said, there's digital mentors on this powder hook Um network that you can check out. Um So, all kinds of different opportunities to get connected with people. Social media has gonna not to interrupted social media. Um. You know Instagram is there's a local board, movent. You know, there's a group of people that wants to ares their own protein and hunter and being a hundred you know, one of the best ways to do that. Um. So you know, just about any avenue of communication you can think of. You know, you can get a home to somebody and and hopefully for the most part you're going to find a willing mentor out there is going to help be helpful to you. Yeah, Josh, can you elaborate on what the digital mentor thing is with powder hook Um. What is the service that you'll be providing the folks by way of that. So if someone's here in this and they're thinking, oh I could use a digital network, what does that mean? Well, you know, I'm not sure because we just signed I just signed up for it last week. But UM, what I did is I basically went on there and put some information about myself, UM, how long I've been hunting, what species I have been hunting, UM, how far I'm willing to travel to to mentor a new hunter. UM. And so people can can look they pull up a map or put in your zip code and they can find where these different mentors are that they can try to connect with UM if they're looking for someone to take them out hunting UM or kind of asking questions. So just kind of a cool networking tool for for new hunters UM to to get involved with people that are in their area they just maybe don't know about them. Very cool, awesome, And that's the powder Hook app. That sounds like a great way to UH to get connected with further and get further take you out to his favorite tree stands? All right, can I can I touch on one more thing? Let me tell some more UM. And this goes back to what Ryan was saying about just you know, we need to do a better job as hunters taking taking other people out. And you know, one of the people, one of the one of the end Vigils that's going through our Field of Fork program up with the tip of the mid branch. Um. He has worked for a company that is very involved in UM outdoor clothing and work UM work where UM and I know that he works every day with other hunters and he is interacting with other hunters on a daily basis, and he's just never had anybody say, hey, why don't you come out with me? Um. You know, we just did another field of Fork I think this one was a New York Ryan where Hank New Hampster are New Hampshire, Okay, So there was a gun manufacturer that had people reach out to us that they wanted to learn how to hunt. And you you know there's people there that hunt, right, I mean, there's no reason why we can't do a better jobs as hunters saying hey, you know, identify these people that have shown an interest in it and then reach out and offer that lending hand to get him out in the woods and um, you know, be a mentor to him. We just got to do a better job. Very very true. Well, I certainly appreciate what you guys are doing, so thank you Ryan, and further and followed your management association for for stepping up and leading in this way. Um I I hunt a percent agree it's necessary, and I think, you know, we need to wrap it up here, but I want to give you a chance for Ryan, if there's any last plug you want to make, or any last topic we haven't touched on that you really want to make sure you can mention if you've got any final parting words, what would you like to just share? But I think anything is They know we definitely dove into advance level and I don't. The last thing I want to do is is intimidate or scare something away from hunting. I think it's important to get out there and do whatever you want to do and enjoy it and uh, you know, just cherished the moment type of deal and it doesn't have to be that to you know, it's a lot of fun if it is. It's also a lot of fun if you're not taking it that serious. So the main thing I want to leave people with is, you know, don't be intimidated and if you're doing anything, it's better enough and get out there and enjoy the great outdoors and being a deer hunter. For sure absolutely agree with that, and I will say, and I'll probably mention this at the beginning of the episode, so this is the second time you'll probably have heard this. But if you are new, make sure can go back and listen to that Deer Hunting one on one podcast. We did great kind of starting point that will help put some of these basic pieces in place, so that when you go back and listen to a lot of these other podcasts that we've done that go more advanced, you have that foundation and do not. Just like you said, Ryan, don't feel bad if some of these things are a little bit complicated, because it took all of us, all three of us here talking, you know, years and years and years and decades of experience in trial and air and start figuring some of these things out and making sensitive all on our heads. So um, it's perfectly fine to to go through that process yourself. UM. And one and more, one more thing mark for for new hunters is q d m A has got a free e book that people can go down mode and that's a great resource for new hunters, and um, even people that are experienced has some great info in there. It's a free download from our website. So I just go to QUTM dot com and what should I search for or is where do I find it? You know, put an e book or I think it's QTMA dot com Ford Slash e book. I think is a direct um linked to it. It's deer hunting one on one perfect. Well, that's that's an awesome tool as well. So further, Ryan, big, thank you, I appreciate it's been a lot of fun. Ryan. I really enjoyed you kind of divulging the the in depth wind and thermal knowledge that that I think for those guys who are trying to take things to the next level, for guys and girls want to take to the next level, I think this stuff is really an important focus area. So I found it fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. Absolutely go further and with that, let's wrap this one up. Okay, and that's to wrap, folks, So thank you for listening. I hope you will check out those mentorship programs and get involved like further mentioned um and other than that, I suppose I'll just give you all another reminder that my new wire hunt content will be featured and shown now on the meat eater dot com. It's a new website for meat Eater, Inc. Which is the new company and a part of Now with Steve Ronella and a handful of other folks. Lots of cool new content. They're not just my stuff, but Now stuff from Steve, stuff from Ben O'Brien and Hunting Collective, stuff from April Okey and Anchored uh at war A Garcia and all sorts of other people will be showing up there soon. Check it on out brows around, lots of interesting stuff. With that all said, I hope you're gonna be in the tree here soon. I hope you have an amazing hunt and hunt's coming up. Hope the wind is in your face. I hope that big bucks will be running into the bottom of your tree stand, and I hope you shoot straight. So until next time, good luck out there. Thank you so much for following along and being a part of the Wired Hunt community, and stay Wired to Hunt. M