00:00:11 Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today's guests may be best known for being the first to take all twenty nine North American Big Game animals with the recurve bow and complete the super Slam. Fred Eichler. He's been fortunate enough to share his love and enthusiasm of the sport with fellow bow hunters across the country through his television shows and personal appearances. Today, we hope to tap into his knowledge on predator calling, but more specifically targeting bears. Welcome to the show, Fred, Hey, thanks so much, Sy I appreciate it. How's everything going absolutely great? Man's a beautiful day here in Colorado, and uh having a blast. Just got done do some predator calling the other day down in Texas and Florida. So still rolling here, buddy, I don't know how to slow down. Good deal, Good deal. Um So I remember, and I don't want to date myself, but um, I remember like growing up a little bit and watching a lot of your stuff on East and Bowing TV and and some of your stuff come through YouTube and and while you were very accomplished hunter and and uh, I loved watching that. I almost got this sense that um you're a little bit of a wild man when it came to bears and some of the stuff that I had, Um, you've seen you do. Uh the one where you guys were in the raft. Um, you guys came up on the three cubs and that sal was on you guys and seconds like that one is like burned into my um. You know, I think there's a video of maybe you guys were to lodge or at a camp and there's a black bear messing around in the garbage can and you go up and decide you want to give him a little pat on the back. Uh, you know they're there's just like when I think you're Fred, I think of like an amazing like recurve bow hunter, but I also think of like a guy that I want to say reckless. You know what you're doing. You're very skilled, but like the bears don't seem to bother you as much. But then, um, you've also got you know, a ton of experience calling bears and that's really why I wanted to talk to you, um today. You know, there there's a video of of you on YouTube. You know, you call a bear and he walks down the log. I think he's fifteen seventeen yards above you. You know, on a different hunt, you called in two different bears. Um, you know what on on a ROSSI video that you were filming with your forty seventy UM. So there's just when I when I think of your fred Eichler, uh, you know bears, I think of bears and calling bears for some reason, I know you're you're very accomplishing and you you probably don't want to be UM categorized by ball but that's definitely why we why we brought you on here. Well, I'm honitored. I appreciate what I think of you. I think of elk and calls. So that's the only fair YEA perfect perfect So we'll get this started off. I we've got a couple of questions, UM, typical questions for black bear hunters. I'm gonna probably um, you know, pivot to you to answer. UM. So, when you're calling bears, do you use any natural sounds with your UM calling? So, like, you know, if if something you're imitating something dying predator instinct, you're trying to draw on that. Are you snapping sticks? Are you're breaking brush? Are you just strictly calling? So I've done both. I've I've broken branches, I've kicked you know, around with my boot. A lot of it depends on the bear. I love it when you can see a bearing call. So I've called in bears blind calling, which you know, I refer to blind calling as you're not looking at the bear, You're just literally set up in a very very looking area. Um, maybe you've got a lot of sign there and you're just hoping that you're in the right spot bears close enough to hear you. Um, that works great. I've've had success doing that. I have more success if I can spot the bear first and gauge its reaction to my calling to the to the other noises I'm making light, breaking sticks or kicking brush. You know, if I see that bear start to hesitate or as I'm really willing on the call, does it come in faster if I'm slowing down or quiet it down, or if I'm louder and more aggressive. So, every bear, just like every person, has a totally different personality, as you know, and you know, I've been fortunate to be a you know, I've been around a lot of bears, Polar bears, the bears, brown bears, and and a lot of black bears, not only for myself hunting, but for clients as well, So everyone is different. I wish I could say it was cookie cutter and boy, this is gonna work every time. But as you know, you know, calling in a bunch of elk and all the different animals that you've called in and hunted, everyone is a little bit different. And I think bears are even even more so than that. You know, you can take white tails and yeah, everyone's a little different. But for bears, it seems like there's such a wide variety based on their experience. As you know, you know, is it a you know, dominant bears or subordinate bears? It a you know, is it a bore? Is it a female? What time of years it is? Springs it fall? A lot of variables come into play for that, but yes, and answer a long winded answer to your question based on the bear. If I can see it, I'll switch it up. If I have a bear starting to hesitate and uh, I'm kicking and making a lot of brush noise, then I'll stop slow down on that. Um. If I'm not making any noise and that bear has they sent I'll try and make more realism and maybe I'll kick some branches and try and have some bushes moving around me. You know. At the same time, you know that that makes a ton of sense, and U we all know bears. Here's the second question. We all know bears can't see the greatest um, but they can see your makeout movement. Do use any visual attractant and any of your bear setups? Are you trying to be as still as possible? So great questions. Sometimes I've even gone with black clothing because I want the bear to think maybe I'm another bear. A lot of times, y'alla bears getting aggressive um and they almost think it's a you know, whether it's another bear, whether they think it's a cub um. I've had boars running that I think, we're like, man, this is a cub And I say that because I've had sALS that had cubs charge in almost like they thought one of their cubs, you know, it was possibly getting hurt, which is you know, can be a little exciting. You know. I've had a few crazy, crazy experience as you mentioned the one charge. You know, you couldn't got a grease bb in my butt with a hammer, you know at that time. And I've had a few times like that. Uh, I'm not really scared of black bears. Um, you know, I've just been around so much. But I'm very cognizant that you know, they are big, strong bears and and uh, but once you start, I don't know, I don't want to sound like that guy that got eaten in Alaska, but once start messing with them, you start to feel a little more comfortable. But I'm also very cognizant that you know, they're strong animals in it's their environment, and so you know, I try to play each one a little bit differently. Got you, got you well, thank you? And if you out there want to submit your own questions and cutting in the distance, you can email us at ct D at Phelps game Calls dot com and we'll take your guys as questions and um you answer them, answer it myself, or we'll we'll send it to the experts. So now we're gonna get into the questions I have for you, Fred, Um, you know, and kind of my interest in calling bears, um, and you may be different, but just the overall consensus is, you know, calling bears seems to almost be played with with somewhat low odds now you can kind of you know, correct me or or you know, versus the typical spot in stock And it sounds like you're answer to one of the earlier questions. Maybe you do a little bit of both. You spot the bear and then you go in and try to call. So it's kind of that hybrid system. We do it a lot elk calling. You know, it's not we're not calling the elk to our location. We're gonna find them, go get close, and then move them a very short distance if possible. It always up to your odds versus um. So you know, I mentioned we were talking before a little bit. I've said up probably thousands of times to call an elk and and and that's a false setting. You know, the bears are pretty full by then. But I've only had six bears come in. What would you say, like in your typical setups, what your odds are for calling a bearon you know, and that's you might want to um, you know, preface that with whether you've just bought at a bear, whether there was a bear in that area a day ago, versus if you're completely cold calling in an area that seems to be barry. You know, But what are your odds when you sit down, the call a great question. So I would say, when I'm blind calling, well, it's probably one out of twenty to be honest. I mean, it's not something I would tell everybody. Oh man, go out there and think you're gonna do this every time, even when you're in a pretty bury area. Um, you know, it be you know, as low as one out of twenty. But to me, one out of twenty is awesome. You know what I mean. If I make ten calls in one day and nothing comes in, I make ten calls the next day. In two days, I'm expecting a bear to come in, you know, and react to my call. So you know, it doesn't sound great. But to me, I look at it like, every single time I don't I call and nothing comes in, I get even more excited because I'm like, what are the odds something's not gonna come in this next time? You know, I'm one of those, you know, I'm an optimist. So when it comes to that, but blind calling is by far the most difficult, just because you don't know if you're you know, even with an ear shot, you may have a lot of sign, but are they coming in there at night? Are they coming in there? You know? Is that signed five hours old? Is it? You know what I mean? You know, twelve hours old? Where's the bear? You know at that time? So now when it comes to seeing a bear and then calling it, man, I'm gonna up that up to like two out of ten um because you can have a lot better odds um with bears when you can see them. And I think a lot of that's because I can gauge their reactions. So I do a lot of different things. You don't. I'll look at the bear, and a lot of times I won't call the bears, even though I think I can, because it's either you know, it might be a juvenile bear, and I don't want to, you know, have it come in curious, And I'll play a juvenile bear a lot differently. I'll go real quiet. So I brought a couple of calls, but like I may just gauge its reaction, and I don't want to blow you out here, but you know, gauge its reaction really slow, like you know, I'm just starting, you know, And and I'll try and sound like something with a little longer breath or something with a little shorter breath. So like a deer when it's squalling, you know what I mean, or something's killing it. It has bigger lungs. It makes a longer squall, you know. And then as opposed to like a rabbit or smaller animal, they keep taking breaths really quickly. So I'll gauge based on the size of the bear. A lot of times how I'm gonna call, but a lot of bears I don't call too. So if it's a juvenile bear, I'm gonna go. Uh. If it's a sound with cubs, I try and leave that alone. You know. You know, how have I ever messed with him a little bit just because it's exciting, and you know, when I've had guys around, like, hey, you want to see something crazy, you know, watch this. Uh. But normally I'm just looking for you know, your your loan bears, your more mature bears, And that's what I'm That's what I'm setting up for um, just for the safety reason and also so guys have a minute to look at that bear. I'll try and set up where I can watch watch a little country um or get to where between me and the bear, I can see the bear approaching. UM bears aren't gonna hook a lot down wind. Usually, you know the bears that I've called to, you know, they'll come more straight at you. They're not trying to hook wide and catch your wind. Um. If you set up correctly, that bear is usually gonna come into you. You know, they're not too worried about stuff. There are kind of a you know apex, you know, top tier predator, and they're not worried about something else eating them, unless it's a grizzy or brown bear. And if you're in country that has both. But normally a black bear is gonna come in. So I try and get to where I can see it. Um. Now that could be advantageous and disadvantage as well. I had a client one time with a muzzleloader. Of course you've only got one shot, and you know, you get a lot of smoke, you know, if you're shooting, uh, you know the old the old muzzloaders. But I called it a bear from about a hundred and fifty yards and it comes screaming in and and it was just one of those. It was the right time, It was the right bear, and this bear is coming, and that I could tell the guys just getting really nervous. I'm like, man, just stay calm, you know what I mean, Hopefully he'll coming close and he'll stop. Well, this bear gets about eight yards away, doesn't have a good shot, stops, so I start pouring the coals to him. You know, I start really just just just wailing hard, just really you know, kind of aggressive. And this bear just drops off the hill and he's coming as hard as a bear can come. And I stopped calling and I start yelling trying to stop the bears, like guy can get a good shot, and he's just I mean, this bear is gonna run us right over, you know, he's coming right ass. And I'm like I start telling I'm like, shoot shoot him. Shoot. Well, the bear gets about twenty yards on a full run, and he's coming right to me. Guy touches off this muzzloader and smoke, you know, either us could see, and I kind of, you know, you know how you cringe a little bit. I'm like, man, this is gonna hurt. He's gonna you know, he doesn't eat us, he's gonna he's gonna knock us over for sure. And there's smoke everywhere. I can't see a thing, you know. And finally the smoke clears and this poor guy is gone. Then you know, to be like he scoots away, he's freaked out, he's in a little ball, you know, he's like, oh my gosh, I was gonna kill us hit him, and he goes. I didn't even aim at him, he goes. I just pull the trigger to get him to go away. Like that would have been so incredible. So you know, again long when it answer your question. But yes, I'll change it up. I like to set up where I can see um, I'll call you know, I will call blind. But you know, like I said, one out of twenty, maybe where's where's opposed to when I can see a bear, I can probably get two out of ten to to respond and and actually come in whether that's all the way to you or get some kind of respond from where they're coming and closing the distance to a degree. Yeah. Yeah. And then just a follow up question to something you said there from my form my own curiosity. You you mentioned like based on the size of the bear, you will call different or maybe use like rather than a rabbit, use a font. Are you are you using like a fawn call with a bigger bear or or did I miss here that no, no, no no, you're changing the total right. Yeah, So you know, a smaller bear, just like you know smaller predators. A smaller bear might might be a little antivity if it's a really loud super squall, you know, a larger animal. So if it's a really younger bear, a lot of times I'll go with a smaller or not as aggressive predator. Sound um. But if it's a bigger, older, mature bear, and I look at it and go, man, that things probably killed elk calves, moose calves, deer calves, everything. It's been around the block and heard a lot of things die. Um, I'm gonna maybe play a little more aggressive a longer lunged animal like a deer or an elk calf or or something like that. And I'll even use diaphragms at times just to make that plaintive longer call uh to to increase the odds of it coming in. Okay, perfect, perfect um. So we we talked about this on our last bear calling podcast. But you know, for me, it's a struggle because bears don't necessarily call back everything else. I call to turkey, I make a noise, they answer me back. I know I'm in the right spot, Like this is a spotting need to be So how do you find confidence in a spot like pre scouting when you're going out, you know the red trees, you know, scout all that, Like how do you know, like is there an amount of scat? Is there enough sign? Like what's your what's your factors into knowing you're in a good spot to be? UM for calum bears great point um one. A lot of times it's scat, and I like a lot of fresh scat. Bears follow food sources, UM, just like the elk and things like that. But it seems like you'll have a lot of bears in one small area. So in my area, you know here in southern Colorado, Um, I live at seven thousand feet you know this is this is my house here where I'm living, and we'll have bears all over here and behind the house and and on our rants as well as a lot of the places that we hunt. UM. But I'm looking for oak brush, you know, I'm looking for when acorns are dropping, and based on whether it's a south slope nor slope where you know, whether it's sounding a canyon or not. UM oak brush and a lot of the oak trees will off acorns at different times, you know, it maybe a couple of days difference, it maybe weeks difference. So I'm looking for the spot that's hot at that time, what's dropping, Where are all the bears? And if I'm seeing all kinds of fresh cat, then I know the bears are there. Um, I'm doing a lot of glassing. You know, I'll get up high. You know, I'll look with a spotting scope. Um, I'm looking in dirt roads for tracks on top of my tracks, um, whether it's hire tracks, so there's my boot tracks. So you know, I'm looking for that tons of activity to get in there and and increase my odds. Um, In areas like that, I'll have more success. When i'm blind calling, I don't actually have to see the bear. If I know it looks like they're really feeding on the soap brush and they're gonna be laying up close. Same thing, you know, in a very state the state legality wise, but if bears are on a carcass, a lot of times the more mature bears, and you everybody's that that has hunted bears over baits has watched them come in and usually it's you know, the subordinate, you know, the smaller bears or you know, the ones that are that aren't dominant, slip in first earlier, and they'll grab a little meat, you know, or whatever whatever they're sitting on, and then the bigger bears will come and then ride it dark. You know, the big ones come mambling in there, or if they know that there's a younger bear trying to steal their feet, they'll come running in earlier. So a lot of times I'll set up close to those feet sources again, whether it's acorns, whether it's a dead carcass. Here in Colorado you can legally hunt over the carcass of a of a legally killed animal or something that you've found. So let's say one of my clients harvest and elk. We take all the edible meat off it, you know, quarters, backstop, sent alongs all that, and there's just a gut pile, maybe some ribs there. You know, I'll set up and call off that. Once a bear start hitting that, that's a great location to slip into and and try and call something off of. Got you perfect, perfect um. So you're going out on a bear hunt. You're in a column, so you expect them to be you know, fifty sixty, you know, maybe a hundred yards? Like what what gun are you grabbing out of your your gun safe? You know before you take off too, if you're gonna target bears and intend to call him in, so you know what I come guys, you can use any weapon you want. A lot of guys are into the longer range. Some people don't like bears up close. For me, calling a bear is about being up cloaks, like I want him close. Um. You know one of the guys that you know hunt with in Canada, lot, you know, Clint, He's got kiss Yox Valley Outfitters, and he loves calling bears in. And we both look at it the same way, like I want the bear right on top of me, you know. To me, I didn't really call that bear in or do a great job of calling him in unless he's under thirty yards. I want the bear close, you know. So that's so I choose my weapon accordingly. Um, when I'm also calling bears and I want something that has a lot of stopping power. Um, sot seventy to me, there's something about the lever guns too. You know, I've gotta you know, I've got a Rossy forty five seventy and I absolutely love it. It's just you know, and any of those you know, Marlon, there's a bunch of people that have those levers and the larger calibers. But I've got a you know, rossy lever forty five seven and eat and I'm running a heavy bullet through it hollow point and man when they come up. You know, Hornedy has got some quite a few different loads for it. And I want something that when I shoot, it's gonna drop the bear either in its tracks or it's gonna knock that bear to where it's not gonna go twenty yards and it's gonna drop. Um. Also, just so you have the shorter barrel, I'm not trying to acquire a scope. I like the open sites. Red dots not a bad idea either, but for me, I like open sits. Uh, you know, the shorter levers because it's quick. You can swing it quick, you can react quick. Um. You know, if I'm with a client, um, you know, even if I'm hunting with a you know, with another guy, then we're both calling. You know, I've tandem called with Clint, you know, a Candida we've got an absolute blast do and that um, because man, I mean when you got two guys and calling differently, oh, it just it just seems like, you know, multiple just like Elk calling when you have one guy Calcolm here, another guy calcn behind you. Um with bears too, when we have two different guys, was running a little bit different sounds. Everybody calls a little bit differently. Man, it seems like Bears just know it increases the odds. So sometimes tandem calling works great too. But yeah, I'm gonna tell you that that a lever short heavy caliber. I like that because I like calling him in close. So you know, I'll have a lot of barrats that will close that you know, a hundred yards and that's neat. You can reach out there and you know, shoot him with a scope and that's all great too. But for me, if I go on out and going, man, I'm gonna try and call a Barrett. This is my goal. I want him in right on top of Yeah, do you do you still pick up the recurve if you're gonna if you're gonna call, is a bow a good option, like, just because there there's that chance that you're not gonna get him to stop at twenty or thirty, right and exactly go ahead. I'm sorry I started laughing because I'm like, I have my answer to this. So, yeah, I was assuming. I was assuming the answer was that, but I just wanted to double check that you're not picking up your your record or any bow when you're going to specifically calling though. And that's that's a great question. Now have I done it? Yes? Is it something I'm ever gonna take a client on or is it something I would ever suggest people to do? Know? And I say that because especially blind calling. Um, I've had situations where we've had to shoot, you know, in in front of a sal with cubs. Um that was really aggressive. And not only do you stop calling it and have to shoot in front of it and back out of the area, but man with with a bow, you know, and I always carry a carry gun anyways, but just that reaction time when a bear closes quick. And that's why I like to be able to see a little bit. But when you have a bear just come on top of you just like that and you're in you know, sometimes they can do that. Uh yeah, bow's not really it's it's it's not the perfect thing to use when you're calling bears, whether it's you know, grizzlies or browns or blacks. Um. You know, hey, if somebody wants to do it, that's fine. But I'll just saying it's I've seen some situations where I went, I'm really glad I didn't have my recurb there that could have that could have turned a little south. So so yeah, for me, that's that's more of a you know, you know, slip slip in and shoot it with the bows. But for calling them, you know, I'm more of a probably better to have a gun with. You got you got you. Um, Now let's get into some of the fun stuff. Um, the predator calls. You know, there's there's a lot out there. There's you know, you can go electronic caller or you can go mouth calls. You can go open read versus you know, close read. You can, um kind of walk through what you look at predator calls. I know you've um partnered up with Western rivers um, you know, to to make your own electronic call, So tell us a little bit about that, and then you know you've already demonstrated some mouth calls, so just kind of walk through your selection when you're going to call bears, Um, you know what what calls you're looking at, what you're gonna bring. You know the legality of you know, certain calls in certain states, and kind of walk through that. That whole the whole conversation on the calls. Now, great quest and Jason, and you know probably better than you know anyone because you've called so much and you know your own line of calls and everything you've done. Um, it's so important. Animals can get educated to a certain call, whether it's a turkey, whether it's a coyote. You know, almost any animal learners and and can get educated and if it has a bad experience. So one of the things I like is switching it up, um. And whether that's a mouth call electronic call, Um, I try and blow electrac or mouth calls differently. If I'm hunting in the same area or going to a place I've been before, and the same thing with electronic calls. I'll literally sometimes keep notes and go, Okay, I hunted this area, whether it's a public land area or a private ranch, and I played this call, this call on this call. So when I go there next time, I'm gonna play totally different sounds, um mixing it up. It's huge. You know. I've done predator seminars before, and one of the questions I'll ask how many people here, you know have gone predator hunting? And almost everbody raised their hand. That's why they know they're there, you know, at the seminar. And I'll say how many people, um, you know are happy with the success that they have predator hunting, you know, and maybe a quarter of the hands will go up, you know, and again that's whether they're a seminar. And I'll say how many people play a dying rabbit call? And every single hand goes up. I'm like, well, there's your problem. Everybody's playing that time grabbic call because that's what it started with, you know, and and those those coyotes and and and fox everything they're getting educated to it. And I've gone to places where people have had zero success and said, man, I just these cuyouts are so smart. I just can't call him in or I don't understand it. Nobody's ever called this is my favorite one. Nobody's ever called in this spot. But I still can't call Cyouts in. And I'm like, you understand that Coles may arrange five miles ten miles. If your neighbor ten miles away called, you know, six months or a year ago, then he educated the coyotes that you're seeing the tracks and Scaft four. So I'll go in and mix it up and I'll play a calf ball, I'll play a fawn bleat, I'll play chickens, you know what I mean. For rurals, I'll play dogs, you know, squalling, I'll play guineafoul. You know, I'll play the totally random different sounds that people don't play, and a lot of people are nervous to do that. So, you know, when I worked with Western Rivers, I was like, man, you know, I've used dang year every call on the market, and so is everybody else, and it's hard now to even find it a call that something hasn't heard. So I want to pre record, or I want to record some of my own sounds. So we went out and and got all kinds of of different sounds that hadn't been heard before, and it was awesome, you know, and that continually switching it up for for the animals helps huge. But to your point about legality and and things, I called it a mountain lion. I was telling you before this you know podcast, and it was, oh, I don't know, about two months ago and I was, you know, behind my house on the ranch and set up and I had a guy from Arkansas with me actually, and uh, I set up my electronic call, my you know, my West Drivers call and started calling and we got amazing video of a mountain lion just all of a sudden it crept up to about twenty artis from the call, and then it runs up and literally is standing right over my electronic call and my caraman's getting it all on video. And I'm like, oh, I got a mountain lion tag in my pocket. I can't shoot the lion because in Colorado and the aream hunting, you can't use an electronic call. Had I been using a mouth call, it would have been awesome and I could have used it. So I tell people check legalities, you know in areas. But you know, a lot of times you have to have both in your arsenal mouth calls, you know, as well as electronic calls, just so you can hunt not only more species, uh, increase your success, but also cover the legal side of it. You know what I mean. Okay, I just saw a bearer. I just saw a mountain lion. All I have is electronic call. I'm out of luck. So in areas where you can't use them, so being able to pull that mouth call out of your pocket or out of your pack and and still be able to interact and play and get a chance of the animals is huge. The biggest difference to me when I tell people, and I'm old enough to where I started out with mouth calls, because that's really all they had besides the old Johnny Stewart tape players. You know, you put the speakers out, and I was I was going to tell a funny story about you like changing it up, Like I'm convinced the coyotes I hunted back and in the old days they like new you know, you can start to sing along, like you know the next song on the tape and the next sound, like we played that same thirty minute tape. You know, It's like these coyotes know the next sound that's coming in the next sound as well. They knew we'd walk that, Yeah, we'd walked down there, flip the tape and hit the play button again, you know, and it's like they could they could have probably sung our tape, but uh yeah, yeah, changing it up, we didn't do much. You know. We would open it up. We'd have two or three tapes and they were gonna get one of them and uh, we're gonna play, play both sides. That's that's what I did all the time. So you know, it's it's funny. But now there's such a just such a myriad of you know, calls available to people. But I like the fact um with the electronic call in. The huge advantage to me is when I'm blowing a mouth call, like for bears, that bears focused on me, you know, that mountain lion, that fox at coyote, that badger that you know, whatever it is, it's focused on where that sounds coming from. So whether it's a bobcat sneaking in looking for any movement, it increases the odds of me getting busted because I'm moving my mouth or my head and then I've got to drop down and get my weapon, so you know, or even if I've got it on you know, on a on a you know, tripod or something, I've still got a lot more movement with a mouth call, and a lot of times that shot is quartering to you, coming to you, or if an animal's gonna circle a little down wind, he's gonna be behind me or you know, off to the quarters and I'm not gonna see that animal at all. The huge advantage to electronic calls for the guys to take advantage of that distance is putting that call out fifty yards from you, so now you can have the animal not focused on you, focused on the call. It's coming into where that you know noise is emanating from. And I love decoys too, because I think if you can fool their ears you know to mean, but also fool their eyes, You're just increasing more and more. And then if you can throw in some scent like sometimes I'll use conquest sent around my call if I can. You know, the more senses I can fool, the more it increases my odds of getting that animal in close. But you've got that call out there, the animals coming in, it increases the odds of getting a better shot and an animal it's not going to spot you and focusing that animal on where you want it to go, so you know, the for the guys to take their time and learn how to set up correctly, it's really you can't be an electronic call. It's just you know, with with the myriad, you know, a push of a button being able to play a lot of different sounds. One of the things I did with the Western Rivers call Jason is I I put a fifty volume reduction button with one hit of the button. Um I found with some of the other calls I was using. If I had an animal trying to close a distance and and a lot of people play the volume way too loud. That's another bad mistake a lot of people make. They don't realize how far animals can hear. But I still wanted to turn the volume down a little bit fast, and I found I was hitting that volume button down, down, down, down down trying to do it. So I put a large button on the remote where, you know, no matter what I'm playing, if I hit the button once, it reduces a volume by f If I hit the button again, it reduces it again by So if I have something out there that's holding up, you know, man, I can drop the volume, you know what I mean, and and and start to bring them in because realistically, when you've got something dying, it doesn't stay the same volume. It fluctuates high well, and it trails out, you know what it's you know, and all the coyotes, Yeah, you know how that is. It's just it's those little bitty things to me that make a huge difference. And you know, I grew up watching the Wayne Carlton videos you calling bears, And you know one thing that is always you know about bears is they can lose interest really quick. You know, during that calling, you might get him to commit, but somewhere along the way, you know they're chasing a squirrel or they're you know, they're just like they they lose interest. You know what, do you have any tips or techniques, especially if you can't see the bear? I know you you prefer to see him, but if you can't, like are your guys as are your sounds on the western rivers? Or when you running a mouth call, like, are you like try to limit the gaps or how do you do that to make sure that you don't kind of lose that bears interest along the way. Since the places I hunt you can't use an electron and call for bears, all my bear calling has been done with a mouth call um And to try and keep a bear interested, one you know, again, to go back to it. When I can see the bear, I'm gauging the bears reaction. Do I need to if he starts to lose interest, you know, or starts to turn off, or you know, you can see he smells something that's gonna go over there for a minute, I'm gonna change my volume. I'm gonna start kicking more brush. I'm gonna do something to make it go. Wait, something just changed over there. So you know, I'm constantly trying to do those little things to keep them, um, you know, from from losing interest, like you said, because they do get distracted. The other thing is when I'm calling bears, I don't stop calling. I call NonStop. A lot of times guys calling coyotes or use the mouth call and I used to do it too, but just because I needed to take a breath, or my lips or my cheeks are sore, you know, you'd call for a minute, take a break, call from minute, take a break. With bears, I call NonStop. I do not stop calling. And again, because like you say, I think bears are a lot like I am. You know, squirrel, you know, go over here, you know, and to totally totally just get off track, So I try to not give them that break. Once I get them reacting at all, I try and keep pouring it on so they'll keep reacting. Um. And then that calling non stop brings up the question how long are you calling on a on a normal bear set um? You know, I guess if you can see him, that changes the game because you're you know, he's still interested, or you can still keep going. But say it's you know, non visible bear or somewhat cold set up, like how long are you calling? How long are you waiting before you change spots? Yeah, if I'm blind calling, I'll just call five minutes there as long as you know, tell my lips and you know my cheeks were out, you know what I mean. And I'll fluctuate from low too high. And blind calling is a little more difficult for me because when I can see the bear, I'm more excited. I can I can go longer, kind of like if you're competing with your buddy doing push ups, you can do more because you're watching him, you know, like, oh, I'm gonna get more. That's the same way to me if I'm watching a bear and he's reacting to the camp man you know, all of a sudden, I've got a little more energy, i can get some more lung power. I'm gonna ignore my my lips that are starting to get a little number, my cheeks that are starting to get a little sore, and I'm gonna keep going. Um Whereas if I'm blind calling, I even start to lose interest. You know, it's like, Okay, you know I've been calling for a few minutes here and now doesn't show enough. You know, I'm gonna knock it off. So you know, as opposed to if I was running electronic call, if it was legal where I'm at, I would play probably a lot longer, you know, fifteen to twenty minutes something like that. But you know, when I'm when i'm calling, I go as much as I can until until I lose interesting, go time to move. You've kind of alluded to this next question a little bit earlier on Based on the size of the bearer you want to call in, but you change your calls, um, like through spring if you're in an area that has a spring season, like will you start with you know, falls and cows as they drop or are you always gonna stay? You know, are you gonna stay away from rabbit since you don't want to call in the small bears, even though it will work on bigger ones, like what's your approach um based on time of the year. And then also, um, you know the bear that you're targeting or that you'd like to come into your calls, like what calls are your go to and how do you kind of think about that? Right, and I'll switch it up, you know, like you said, you know, if it's spraying and there's you know, animals on the ground, um a lot of times or you know, it works in the fall to all bears are used to eating baby dear baby, elk, baby moose, depending on where they're at. So you know, a lot of times I'll go to the diaphragm, or I'll go to a predator call that I can make it a little bit more even tone instead of fluctuated so much to make it sound like you know, a dying moose, calf or falling or something like that. But I have a lot of luck with that. But I found you know, big bears will react to the small you know, small stuff as well. So again I prefer to spot them and look at them and then call to him and you know, sometimes I'll totally change it. If I'm giving them a you know, just allowed you know, predator call that's basically an improvised rabbit. You know, I'm just it's a squall and I'm I'm doing it. They're not reacting. Well, I may switch it up real quick and go to a diaphragm and you know, or try and make it sound more like a fawn and see if that all of a sudden makes him go, oh, this sounds good, or vice versa. Sometimes I'll start out with a bear. You know, I may see a big bear and go, man, I'm gonna I'm gonna start calling that one and try and make it react, uh, you know, to a moose or you know, a calf sound, and and see how it does. And if it doesn't, then I'll switch it up to it just a long squalling, just noisemaker. It sounds like something dying. Um. And again a lot of that depends too. You know, I've been up in the Yukon calling grizzlies, and you know that's a that's a little scary proposition to it's fun. But again, I try to look to where I can I can see a little bit and have a little bit of distance or or whether I'm calling in wolves or you know, whatever it is. Um you know, and I've only called two wolves into the call, but you know, still exciting. I've I've probably called it more than that that I didn't see, but I've called to in that I actually shot on videos, so those were kind of neat. But you know, when it's a grizzly and things like that, anything that that bear is gonna react to, whether it's a you know, fawn or you know almost and I say moose, but you know, like a half of anything, a fallen a you know, a calf that sounds right, and it's reacting, and I'm just gonna keep hitting on that. If it's not reacting and I can see it, I'm gonna go through. I'm gonna throw everything at it but the kitchen sink and see if I can hit the right sound that causes it to react. And the other thing with this very similar Sorry go ahead, no, I was gonna say, very similar to ELK calling. You know, everybody thinks we have like this perfect cookie cutter, like you know, you're gonna do this and this, and it's like it's really you know, I relate it back to bass fishing. You know, you show up to the bass spot and you're gonna throw a plug, You're gonna throw a buzz bait, You're gonna you know, throw a jig, and just try to figure out, like what's catching fish in this area. You know, the same thing for Elk, same thing it sounds like for for Barry. You're just gonna throw everything at him and see, like, all right, what gets him to turn my way and commit? And then if I give him a little bit more, you know, is he going to continue on or is he gonna lose interest? Then you know, try to find the next thing that's working right and and and it's funny because just like that was a great analogy with the bass fishing, and I think I mentioned other the bears are just so across the board with their personality least if you will or you know their dominance or you know whether the dominant or subordinate um. You know, I've I've run bears off that I thought this is a done deal. You know, Sometimes when I close a distance too close, you know, if I see a bear at three hundred yards, for example, I may trying close to you know, a hundred fifty yards, you know, before trying to call it, or a hundred yards and then trying to call it. So but I've got I've got video of slipping up or I thought, man, look at this giant bear. He's gonna come running in. And I know he probably has never heard a call. But for some reason I did something, or I was too aggressive, or it just wasn't worth a fight to him that day, whatever, but you know where they just went. Now I'm out of here and took off. So you know, to your point, you're you're playing around. But that's what's fun about it. You're you're you're you're playing different things. But what works with one bear, or what scenario works with one, or what sound works with one may not work at all, uh for the next one. But I I do want to say again that people have to be very cognizant because I have had um some so I won't say negative because they're all exciting, uh, but some reactions from stals with cubs where they will they'll get pretty aggressive and I don't know if they think it's one of their cubs. Um that's you know, that's getting hurt or there or it's a like a protective measure. Um, but I've had him coming pretty hard to that, um you know as well. And and again, like I said, I'm I'm not scared of my mess with him all the time. I slap them on the butt when they come into the dumpster. You know, my my wife was with me one time. We were cal calling elk and you and me were talking about that's where you've had a lot of your encounters, is you know, your cal calling and that tells you how many how many elk? You know, bears eat. But we had a black bear literally stalking us, and uh, you know my office like, what what are we gonna do? I was like, I'm gonna try and treat him. So I let him get really close, and you know, stupid, but you know I took off running and barking like a dog at him as quick as I could. And because I was so close to him, it startled him and he jumped up a tree, and you know, I thought it was awesome, and she's you're just not quite all there, are you. So yeah, that was the other That's my other main encounter with black bears is them trying to get like meat out of the back of the truck or messing with we've you're running the bear up a tree story like, you know, trying to yank one of my um capes out of you know, just finish up an ltcout. We're just gonna keep the meat in the back of the truck for for one night, you know what, until we can get off the mountain. And you know, it's either yanking the meat out of the truck, yanking the heads and hides and capes, and they're just, yeah, I'm not as I'm not as uh courageous around bears though. I just I feel like, you know, for the most part, they are going to run. But if they decided to turn or decided to to to stand their ground, like I'm probably gonna lose that one real quickly. I've had a couple of a couple of pucker me up a little bit. Yep yep. So you just mentioned, you know, calling grizz or calling in you know, in grizzly country, do you do anything different? You know, I would say that, you know, you can't hunt grizzly in the in the lower forty eight um, you know where we do a lot of this black beard calling. Um, if you're calling in grizzly Country. Is there anything you would do differently or you know, like you say, it can be a little bit different of an experience. So you're still trying to call black bearn in grizzly Country, Like what are you changing from your normal setup? And and how do you kind of just add a couple extra layers of safety to the to the set up. Oh yeah, And I'm gonna tell you the same thing like I've done on Kodiak Island when you know what I mean, I've I've called for brown bears they're trying to get a you know, get a reaction. Or even when I was calling Fox, you know, I had a captain of a boat look at me and go, you're not spenn You're gonna be out there on you know, on that island. You're you're calling red Fox in, but a brown bear may come running down your neck, you know. And don't get me wrong, it's a little bigger pucker factor. But I totally set up differently just for the safety factor. You know a lot of times I'll either have a cameraman or you know, somebody else with me, and you know, I'm looking where can I see everywhere? When you know, where can something not slip up on me to where they literally flipped the tables on me, and and and they've got the advantage. So you know, I'll set up places where I can see. Then what's my next step? You know almost you know, literally I'll strategize what's what's my step if something goes south? In other words, um, souath cubs comes running in and I can't stop her, you know by yelling and shut my mouth. You know, at what point, where's my safety zone? Where do I you know, where am I going to shoot around off in front of her to try and scare or just shoot around off you know where? Where's my where's my move? After that? So yeah, I do totally change it up. Bear spray is another great, you know, great idea. I still prefer a weapon, but bear spray is another great idea. Um. So yeah, when you're calling in areas where where the bears are a little bigger and a little more serious. Um, same thing though with the with the black bears, you gotta be cognizanto that as well. I try and set up where I've got a little bit of room, um to react to him. My buddy's got room to react to or my client has room to react. Um. Not like the story of the musleader guy that freaked out and just cranked off around because he was scared of death. It would have been so neat. But um, that's one of the ones that just still I was like, man, you know, it's just such a neat one running off the hill and charge it all the way in. But um, so yeah, that that's a great question. And yeah, just for the safe the aspect of that, it's really a good idea for guys to have, you know, a backup. What's my plan? You know, it's my handgun here next to me? Um, you know where's my rifle? Do I have bear spray? Um? And and what's my I try to predetermine a distance um that you know, all right, I'm not comfortable if it's us out with cubs before it gets so close that I'm gonna force that sout, you know, make her she's gonna have to come at me. You know, I want to try and get her turned around at a safe distance where she has tons of time to realize, oh, hey, this isn't what I thought it was. And you know, I want to get out of here. So you know, I try and set that because I've seen firsthand, you know, uh, you know, I've been charged by leopards, I've been charged by you know, grizzlly bears. I've been charged by black bears. So I've I've seen how quick they can come, how quickly things can go south. So I try and have that buffer. Another great safety tip is to always put your camera in the cameraman in the direction you expect those grizzlies to come from, and make sure they're portly. Yeah, you want to definitely have a you know what I mean, a heavy set, you know cameraman. I could not agree more. Is it is there anything Fred that you feel is vital or extremely important to calling bears? We haven't touched on, like you know, set up um, like what you're looking for in your setup. You'd already mentioned you you'd like to be able to see um, you know, and see their approach and use that distance of the electronic call, which you know sometimes you can or can't use. Is there anything else you know if you're going out um black bear calling UM that that you think is important to the success, you know, the experience, uh, the wind, of course, you know, I didn't really you know, talk about the wind, of course, but you know wind is wind is huge because bears can't see great. I play shadows um whenever I can. You know, I'd much rather have you know, the sun to my back, um when I you know, when I can um. I also tell guys not to get disappointed. In other words, you know, when you're blind calling. Like I said, I like to think I have a little experience and and calling all kinds of different predators and you know, been with what I know and and reading sign and if I'm in a great area, one out of twenty, you know, that's not that great. A lot of people get disappointed really quick. So I tell people, man, if you want to do it, look at it as a challenge and and and keep going. It will work. You'll find the right bear, You'll you'll hit the right call. Just go ing till it works, because once it works, just like l calling or anything else, you're gonna be hopelessly addicted, and you're gonna be, you know, looking for that next bear that just comes running in and and reacts to you. And it's so exciting because it's different. You know, the mountain lion I called in the other day. That was awesome. You know, it's just neat to call in you know different apex predators. Uh, wind is super important. A lot of guys don't think of where they walked in. You alluded to that earlier. Um. You know, same with you know a lot of species. UM guys think, oh, if I just walk through here, it's okay. But you know, I walk where the animals knocking across where I walk. When it's coming into a call um for black bears or grass these or or anything else. I try and have a natural obstacle when I can. Uh, if I've got a creek or river, um, you know something that I can put big, a big boulder on my back, you know what I mean, or back up against it. Something where something can't come behind me super quick, or if it's circling around or coming in from behind me where I don't expect it, I can hear it coming across you know what I mean, water or coming through leaves. So I probably spend way more time picking the right set up then I do actually calling anything, whether that's a coyote, a bobcat, you know what I mean, you know, a bear. I'm spending as much time going you know, where do I need to be? What's the best position? Where's the sun? Where can I be in the shade? Um? What can I do defensively if I need to? Um? You know, so I spend honestly, for sure, every single set up. I spend more time picking the right place to set up than I do actually calling that makes a lot of sense. So I gotta ask you a couple of questions that you know, probably debatable, but I want your opinion on it. Eyesight, you know, if you're in the shade. You know, everybody knows that bears can't see great and you're opinion like if you're out in the open versus in the shade, Like when can a bear finally see you? You know, you see a lot of people approach, you know if they're on the shore. Um. You know, people will drop off the boat a couple hundred yards away and they what seems to me as a deer and an elk hunter. Um, it's like, man, it's gonna pick you off anytime, But like what what distance do you feel? Like? All right, a bear is gonna see you and you're gonna spook it. So I think bears are a lot like us this is just my opinion. Um. You know, people always say, oh, they're blind, they're you know, they can't see very well. I think bears see about as good as people do. Um. So I look at it like a person, and I can hide from a person really easy. You know, you can get in there and you know, brushing and people spot movement more than they spot anything else, but if it's tucked back in the brush, so you know, and I related to hogs, um, you know. You know everybody say, oh, hogs are blind. You go to an area in Texas that's been hunted hard by hogs, and you watch how quick a hog will pick you up when you slip out into an open sindarow or down the road, that thing will look up see you just see that movement and it's out of there. So you know, I like to think that that that bears can see a little better than a lot of people give them credit for just some things I've seen. So, like I said, I I don't totally disservice them by by by saying I think they're blind. Um, I just assume they could see like me. And I'm doing everything I can to try and hide and and you know, again, that can be full cameo, that can be just not only camo, but taking advantage of the shadows getting back in the bushes. You know, if it's bright out and you're looking into the bushes, you know, how often are you kind of squinting or you're looking It's like, what is that? Did I see something? Since the bears coming into you know, uh, something dying. I don't mind them seeing some movement. I really I think it's great. You know, that's natural. I don't mind them hearing brush going, So I don't mind them seeing some movement. I just don't want them to silhouette me. You know, I don't want like, you know, the background of my window here, you know, at my house. I don't want them to to to catch me, you know, moving in an open silhouette situation, and like this, I'd rather have it to where they can see something in the brush, like, oh, something may be flipping around on the ground there, you know, there's something something is getting eating over there. Um. But yeah, I I assume that they can see about like people, because I've just seen too many circumstances where you know, but bears just aren't scared. They're not you know. Again, it's a difference between you know, a carnivore and and and you know, even though bears are omnivores and they eat everything, you know, and a prey species, so a predator verse I guess I should say a predator species versus a you know, a prey species. When you're a deer or other animals, you're spooked out all the time. And the majority of the states with black bears, they're kind of right up there. There's not something that's gonna steak up and jump on the back of a black bear very often. So they're just not nervous. I think a lot of people take that as a man they can't really see or they're not really paying attention. Yeah, I think they're just walking around like, what's gonna mess with me unless it's another bear? Yeah, yep, just my very similar No. No, that that makes a ton of sense. Um. And so we're gonna go on to smell just a little bit in your opinion on that. Um. You know, Clay Newcom and and Ronella we're hunting on one episode and they're convinced at the bear winded him like eight yards, um, you know, and now they say, you know, it was. It was six or seven of the guys, you know, camera guys, producers, everything that's that's on a set. But in your opinion, if you had to make a loop around a bear and the bear was down wind of you, like, what would be your like safety distance that? Like I I can move it four yards, five yards, but you have to go a thousand yards? Like how how far away? You know, let's say five mile hour cross one. Let's let's put some parameters on it. You know, fairly steady. You're not dealing with mountain thermals. But where would a bear be able to pick you up? You know, scent wise? Man, I gotta go with you know, with Kate, with with you know, Clay and Ronella on this one. It's ridiculously long waves. I mean half a mile, you know, three quarters of a mile. Um, and I'd still hope that the thermals were bringing it over them. Um. You know, bears could smell a route, um. You know, they could smell a carcass from a ridiculous long ways away. They can figure out which acorns are dropping, wear and and and head to them. You know, they can smell where a salve walked days before and pick up that scent and trail it up. So you know, there their ability to smell danger or smell a person um is exceptional. And I would put it, you know, you know, on par if not even better to you know, a deer or anything else there. Uh, it's amazing to watch what a bear can can smell. And like I said, even the roots and and things they go after and digging them up in the ground. Um, they've got an excellent you know, an excellent sense of smell. And yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all. Uh, you know, eight yards no, especially if that wind was going right at the bear, no problem at all they didn't have if they didn't get lucky and get thermals, you know, carrying the wind up over him or or past him somehow. Yeah, i'd uh, I'd say that wouldn't surprise me a bit. So you know, as far as I can, as far as I can circle, you know, sometimes I just gamble and go, man, I hope this half mile or took cord of mile circle is enough. Um. But you know, as far as as far as I can or am willing to and and and hope for the best. That makes makes a ton of sense. Like I say, my some of my latest bear encounters have been them trying to get stuff out of the back of my truck on a hunt. And it's like you know where they yeah, yeah, or did they? They'd be pulled this thing in from a mile or two, you know, just then being able to smell the meat and and whatnot. So yeah, I I they got a great, great sense of smell. And as you alluded to, like whatever you think is far enough, go farther or make sure you go you know, down wind to the bear and not risk it at all. It is amazing the difference in bear z and you just brought that up. I mean, you know, you'll have one bear that will run from you know, human scent from you know, half a mile, three course a mile just because of the experiences that bears have with people maybe or you know, whatever that is. And then the next bear will come towards you, like you know, even a black bear, like I'm gonna go check that out. You know what, what what's that smell? Or you know, I wonder if they have something to eat, you know, or you know, there's a guy in town here in Trinidad that's a you know, that's a rapper and been around you know, this country and bears his whole life. And he was literally walking through the woods and he said he looked up, saw a bear a few a few hundred yards away, and look back and the bear was just charging him no reason. You know, it wasn't messing with the bear, it wasn't a stade with cubs. And he was like, Fred, it was the craziest thing I've ever seen, Like it charged me. And you know, I've had guides get charged and things like that, mostly salds with cubs, you know, and bluff charges or they come right up to them. But yeah, it's it's bizarre how one bear will react one way um and another one lot react totally differently based on their experiences or their fear, or their age or their dominance, you know. And I'm sure you've seen that with with bates. I've seen that when I was painting bears. You know, you could walk into a bait and you know, one bear just take off, scare to death as soon as he saw you or you know, heard you or smell you, and the next one it won't leave. It's like, Nope, this is mine. I'm gonna protect it. And it's been the same with carcasses I've had, you know, I've had bears not leave el carcasses or deer carcass you know, whereas other ones they just see it through the trees and they take off next bears like, no, this is my carcass and you need to go so kind of neat. So I'm gonna give my my one tip at least for what I've learned through bear hunting. Then we're gonna ask you for your your one tip. You know, you're you're something that could change the change the outcome for somebody has maybe not been successful. And for me, a lot of it comes back to um, you know, and it won't necessarily be a barret calling, but it's more UM being patient. Like I don't have a whole lot of patients. I'm the most you know, most aggressive elk caller. Um. If if something doesn't happen, I'm gonna move and make it work. But for me, like bear hunting, I just had to become a little more patient. It just I wasn't going to be successful. You know, whether it's it's glass ng spotting, stocking, even calling, you know, it's a lot of our kyote sets um. You know, we would have a kyote five ten minutes of turning the call and they'd be there. But Barrett, it's like, all right, we need twenty thirty forty you know, and then maybe wait a little bit longer. Um. And so for me, it was just learning patients, spending more time behind the glass um, you know, and then looking at layers. You know a lot of people when I look for deer and elk, it's like I'm looking for something you know, very very obvious, very and then I can spend more time looking in different areas where bear if they if you're not able to see them. And some people say, you know, you should just keep moving until you find bear, but um, we're looking at the second or third layer deep because a lot of times it was bear, at least around my area. They get hung up on a food source and they might not leave it for thirty minutes. And if you don't, you know, that could be your whole glassing session. If you can't find that bear, you know, you know, pulling down a huckleberry bush or whatever it is, you're just not going to be very successful. Um. So my my one tip would be, you know, be a little more patient, stay a little bit longer, glass a little bit longer, call a little bit longer, and you're gonna find a little more success black bear hunting. But what would your your one tip be, Fred? Then, you know, for the one tip again, like you, I kind of mirror the whole. Don't get disappointed. You know it doesn't happen every time. Um, I'd like to increase my odds. You know, my probably favorite time is in the fall because bears are feeding, you know before they go into hibernation, you know, twenty hours a day, So the bears are out more. Um, they're covering more country. They're trying to really load up on on food before they go to the you know, hibernation, so they'll be eating a lot more. Now they may stay closer to where they're gonna again, but they're gonna be out a lot more. So I tell guys, man, yea, the falls a great time. But don't get discouraged. Just keep going and learn to read sign so you increase your odds of spotting that bear to try and call it or blind call and have one come in. Well, thank you very much, Fred for all of your bear calling experience. Um, you know your tips and tactics. We really appreciate having you on here. And Fred, let all the listeners know how they can get a hold of you, where they can find you, where they can follow you and see some of these, um, you know, bear calling videos and experiences. Well thanks, you don't I've got a YouTube page, Fred Aikler YouTube. They can go to Fred Eichler fan page. I've got an Instagram, Facebook and all that good stuff, and then go on there and see some of the things that we've actually been talking about today. All right, everybody go check out Fred. Um, if you don't know who he is, I'm sure you do, but uh, you know, uh wealth of knowledge on everything big game. But um, you know, he's got this predator thing dialed. So we appreciate having him on the day. Well, thank you, Jason, it's great talking to you. I enjoyed it. And good luck calling and this fall as well. All right, take care, Fred M two