00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, what is going on? Welcome to another episode of Back 40. This is Jake Hofer, and we have our panel of guests for another question or dilemma that a lot of people are probably kicking around right now. It's October 29th. You've likely had your cameras out, you have historical data, and you're trying to make a game plan and trying to anticipate where the deer may be next, so you're not chasing your tail all season. And so this week's question is, is should you be where the buck has been or where you think he will be next? I know that sounds pretty obvious, potentially, but we asked Dr. Bronson Strickland, Tony LaPratte, Skip Sly, and Jason Michael this simple approach, and there's some great hunting advice for this time of year, the end of October, the very beginning of November, the time of year we've all been waiting for. So I hope you guys enjoyed this episode of Back 40 brought to you by Moultrie. We're going to kick things off with our scientific chairman, Dr. Strickland. All right, Bronson, welcome back to Back 40. Now it's October 29th, and excitement is almost to a fever pitch as a whitetail hunter. And more than likely, we talked about bucks shifting around in the last episode that we did. And now in this scenario, a new buck has showed up. And the question, on a scrape, either on a field edge, maybe in a bottom, maybe adjacent to bedding area, and maybe each of those variations will have a different answer. But the simple question is, are you hunting where the buck was or where he's going next? Because I feel like there's a short window of some form of prediction before rut chaos ensues. Based off of your research, based off of your observations, should I be where I got him on camera or guessing where he'll be next? 00:01:46 Speaker 2: Personally, I would go for where he was. So we know for a fact that this buck was here for whatever reason, because it was food or dough or it's a good travel corridor, et cetera. What the research shows is basically bucks will utilize, I call it a circuit. And so whether you have a food plot as the anchor of that circuit or, you know, oak trees, whatever, is that you will see, and it may be a day or two or three, but they eventually will keep circling back to those places. And so my strategy would be, if I know he was there, I would use that opportunity while he's not there to move in. How am I going to get in, you know, with a good downwind, minimize disturbance as much as possible, and just wait him out. And that's why it's hunting, you know. There's going to be more unsuccessful days than there are successful days, but I would think that would be I think you'd have a higher degree of success using that strategy than me trying to predict where he's going to be, especially if I don't have other photographs maybe on the property where I know he could also could be. So I would stick to where I know he was. 00:03:03 Speaker 1: So we would want to hope that lightning strikes twice, and the second time it strikes, you're there in that scenario. 00:03:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's pretty reliable. He will be there. Now, he may come back there at 3 in the morning. But the data are showing he will be back. You just got to hope it happens during daylight hours and you're in the tree. 00:03:22 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:03:23 Speaker 1: What about, you're going to have to dig a little deep in this. As far as, you know, like when people look at, they get a trail camera picture. A lot of different variables are just even on the timestamp. And then even with the apps now has like what the wind direction was, the barometric pressure, all these different things. Do you think it's a worthwhile endeavor to pay close attention to where I got a picture of this buck and it was a Northwest wind on October 29th. And so the next Northwest wind, and it was daylight in this example, I need to be in there. Do you think that's a fair data point or is it, or does it not carry as much merit as maybe what we hope? 00:04:00 Speaker 2: Um, I think I would lean on the side of not as much merit as we hoped. And here's why I say that we did. Um, and we're still looking at this, but, uh, looking at movement relative to prevailing wind. And, you know, everyone goes into it, including me, thinking that, you know, a majority of the time they are going to have their nose into the wind. It makes perfect sense. The data don't show that. The data show that just as often when a buck is moving with his nose in the wind, the wind can be at his back as well. And so there's just not any clear signal with the evidence that that is going to be very reliable. And so generally, it's either mostly nose in the wind or at their back, and there wasn't as much of a perpendicular or flanking wind. It seemed like it would be one of those two. And the logic is, too, Jake, eventually they have to turn around and come back. So if you had a Northern front of prevailing wind from the North, eventually they got to turn it around and, and, you know, get back to the bedding area or back to the home range. So, um, I wouldn't put that much weight in it myself. 00:05:12 Speaker 1: What about, um, for this period, like let's say the 29th to the 12th, so much is going to change. And I'm sorry that this is biased to the Midwest. I apologize. 00:05:22 Speaker 2: That's all right. 00:05:24 Speaker 1: Um, there's so much that happens between the 29th and the 12th in terms of deer behavior. Um, How different is the 29th to November 7th when it comes to hunting strategy and deer behavior? I'll let you answer the open-end question. I'm curious. 00:05:42 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so you begin to see an ascent in movement behavior. Their movement rates are picking up. So they are beginning searching, search strategies and things like that. Not as much as during the peak of the rut, But you will see relative to, say, September and October, you're going to see that movement rate increase. So a greater chance of an encounter with a buck as you get later and later into October, assuming, too, you're at the place where he may, if he's going to shift, you're in the place where he shifted to. 00:06:21 Speaker 1: How much does weather impact movement throughout this time period as well? Or is it just put up shots and hope for the best? And what I mean by shots is it's not crazy shots. 00:06:33 Speaker 2: Well, the way we look at it is we kind of partition all of that into they have to move every day, period. So we try to dispel these myths of the deer are, quote, moving today and they're not tomorrow or the day before. They're moving every single day. We see increases in the morning and in the afternoon. They're a crepuscular animal. We see increases during the rut. So nothing is going to supersede those two things. There's nothing that's going to overwhelm and supersede that. But we do see some very subtle increases with the cold front. So it's not going to be like they doubled their movement rate. But in the data, the signal is very clear. that they move a little bit more when it gets cooler. Now, we didn't see anything like with rainfall. Didn't see anything with that. And what becomes difficult with people like with the barometric pressure and with humidity and with the thing that makes that difficult is all of those are correlated. And basically, the reliable signal is when you have a front come through. All of those things are changing. Wind direction, temperature, often precipitation, humidity, all that stuff changes. But within that, when you unpack that into what do we see the most consistent signal, it's the drop in temperature. That's what we see consistently. 00:08:08 Speaker 1: So fronts are the lead domino for that maybe 10%, 20%, 30% multiplier of movement. Easiest way to maybe say that? 00:08:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, 30% may be too strong. I think I might go to 10, 20 at the max. 00:08:24 Speaker 4: Oh, man. Yeah, sorry. 00:08:27 Speaker 2: At least down here with our data. But again, I would rather hunt. Let's frame it like this. I would rather hunt during the rut with unfavorable weather than outside of the rut with this perfect front coming through. 00:08:43 Speaker 4: Okay. 00:08:44 Speaker 1: Interesting. Interesting. Very interesting. So really, at the end of the day, you need to be where the buck was throughout this period and just simply, for lack of a better word, hope for the best and be observant and make adjustments as needed. Yeah, put in your time. Put in your time. 00:09:05 Speaker 2: They are going to utilize that circuit. And again, whether it be a complete home range shift like they did the year before, they are probably going to be back. Within that home range, they are going to visit these spots that you have a history of catching them. They're very likely going to be on that trail again. They're very likely going to be in that bedding area. Maybe not the bed, but in that bedding area again. And I think it's just you getting in a good vantage point to where when they're utilizing that circuit in between food, cover, food, looking for does, Oftentimes when they're utilizing food, it's not to eat. It's because that's where does are. And so they're looking for estrous does. So just thinking about it from that standpoint. 00:09:56 Speaker 1: One last question to wrap this up. Do you feel that... you know, quote-unquote good days, we know the 9 out of 10 days, 10 out of 10 days, whatever algorithm you look at, do you think the success tied to that is more hunters afield trying to capitalize on that opportunity than the 10%? Like when you say a 10% increase in movement, pretty, pretty minor to be completely honest, but I feel that hunters go a field with so much more confidence and are maybe more attentive to where they hunt, how they hunt and have the perception that today's the day versus a crappy day, quote unquote. And they're like, well, I just got to go to see if I get, you know, there's an opportunity. Do you think that is a route to some of that success? I sure do. 00:10:44 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:10:45 Speaker 2: It's kind of different ways of looking at the data. this really good day could be because the weather conditions were great. It was going to be really comfortable to hunt that day. You had more hunters in the field. As such, more deer. 00:11:00 Speaker 4: Were harvested, more bucks were harvested. 00:11:02 Speaker 1: Because there were more hunters. 00:11:06 Speaker 2: The other way of looking at it, like when we were talking about the weather or temperature or the way we look at it is when they're on their feet, How much ground are they covering? What is their movement rate, yards per hour? And we see it a little bit more on those cooler days. Another way of looking at it is percentage of daylight hours bedded. And so we see on those cooler days, they aren't bedded as long as they are on the warmer days. So they're on their feet, and when they're on their feet, their movement rate is more. That is why I think that their exposure rate would be greater on those days. And you would have a greater likelihood of seeing him. 00:11:48 Speaker 1: Okay. I like it. Well, thank you for that insight. Where is the best place for people to track you down? 00:11:55 Speaker 2: Yeah, either on social media or on the web. Just go to wildlifeinvestments or wildlifeinvestments.com and you can see what all we're about and what we do and hopefully how we can help you. 00:12:05 Speaker 1: All right, there you guys have it. That's Dr. Strickland's approach to this time of year. with this question. And it seems pretty obvious, be where he's been. And I often think that there's a lot of guesswork and we all want the concrete answer. We all want the, this is what to do. This is the right thing. But oftentimes you have to go with your gut instinct a little bit, but having some scientific basis as we get into more of these questions is a great starting point. So next up, we're going to go with Tony LaPrat from Michigan. Here we go. All right, Tony, it's good to have you back on the Back 40 series. Yep. Like I said, we're going to be working through the whole entire remainder of the year and some of the dilemmas, some of the questions, some of the things that really all hunters or most hunters fall into of just different issues. So this one is a conundrum with cell cameras, previous year information, but are you hunting where the buck was or where he's going? And mind you, it's late October. So there's so much changing. The floodgates potentially will be opening in terms of rut activity, depending on what part of the country you're in. So are you hunting where he was? or where he's going to be next? 00:13:11 Speaker 4: Well, here's how it is. I start hunting around the 25th of October. Most years in the last 12 years, I've killed my buck in less than three days. Okay. Out of half them years, I killed him on the first day. So when I'm the 29th, a good chance my buck already has died and I haven't even went out until the 25th. What I do different than everybody else, I kind of just mentioned that in the last one. I program him all year to come by my kill zones. So I'm giving him all these things and making it a social hub, and every buck wants to swing through that spot because there's so places to communicate. I make sure there's many things. There's 20 things by my stand, and I don't care which one he comes by. All I do is know that he can't walk by it. He can't be 100 yards away because his whole instinct is everything I need to know is over there. So most guys, I look at their stand sites, and they're pointing in the wrong direction, first of all. 00:14:09 Speaker 1: What's the right direction? 00:14:10 Speaker 4: Well, this is off the story a little bit, but actually good. 90% of all stands, probably it's higher than 90%, is pointing towards the food plot or towards the open part. Now, here's just simple as this. You're setting in your stand. And what comes out first? The little button buck. He walks out about 30 yards in front of me and starts eating. And pretty soon, here comes the group of does. She scans and looks both ways. And then she flicks her tail and she heads out. As soon as they get out there, they turn around and look back at the woods. Because why? The field, they can glance in two seconds and see nothing's coming there. So they're watching where something can come running out. So they're all eating, looking towards your stand. And you're sitting there watching these 10 does eat. And you're thinking, yeah, this is great. And all of a sudden... And I shoot all my bucks sitting down. I only stood up one time shooting my buck. Okay? Most guys stand. The reason they stand is because they don't understand how to make deer, kill them where they need to be, and then they move too much. You will stand. You will shift weight. You will look around, and you move. When you set, you can set motionless for hours. 00:15:15 Speaker 5: Okay? 00:15:16 Speaker 4: That's why I set. Standing people will give away clues. 00:15:19 Speaker 1: Don't. 00:15:20 Speaker 4: Clean across the field, we'll look at you. So anyhow, now all of a sudden these does are all eating, and they're looking towards the woods, and all of a sudden at one second they all lift their heads, and right here sets the double drop tying buck you've been after. 00:15:33 Speaker 1: Right there. 00:15:33 Speaker 4: 20 yards, and you're like, oh, my goodness, I'm going to kill him. The problem is you've got all them does staring at him and you. So now you've got to figure out how to move all the way around to shoot here. Okay? And some little fawn's going to catch you, and you're going to see the buck, but getting him killed is going to be impossible. All my stands are a quarter turn into the woods. Here's why. All bucks, I make trails inside the woods for them to follow. They like to be just inside the cover, so they're peeking out. Then I make where he comes out to my style, where I want him, at the distance. So now, if he's in here and I'm quarter turn, I got him. 00:16:19 Speaker 1: Okay? 00:16:21 Speaker 4: He comes to my ultimate lookout that I designed, and there's a bunch of detail to that. I got him. He wants to work my scrape line. I got him. He wants to go out and chase the does. As he starts to move, I can cover the whole field. Setting down quarter turn in lets me kill from here to here. Now... 69 bucks on the wall. 00:16:46 Speaker 1: 75%. 00:16:50 Speaker 4: Or more is right here. So guys are always got to stand facing away from where they're going to get their kill shot. So they got to turn around, move, and always watch it. And I go, guys, out there in the field, if you've got to stand to shoot the buck out in the field, it means you really don't understand deer because this is where he feels comfortable. And so you're setting your stand up to shoot him where he's most uncomfortable and the shortest window. And also, it's usually during the rut when you ain't predictable. This is predictable. So most of my stands are quarter turned into the woods. 00:17:26 Speaker 1: So... let's say, um, this is just, just, you have your stuff figured out. So this is just me, imaginary me calling you October 29th and saying, Hey Tony, I've had this deer. He's been in this bedding area, you know, one of the last three nights, the middle of the night, uh, last year, it seemed like he, early November, he was kind of over in this area. What, what kind of move or what advice would you give to someone? And this is a, a farm that's 10% set up or 25% set up. So there's a lot of missing puzzle pieces. And you got to read between the lines with me being like, ah, man, this is a really big deal. I really want to kill him. Yeah. 00:18:04 Speaker 4: Well, the only thing you can do is go with what information you have. But the point is I learned a long time ago, learn what that buck does every day, how he thinks and what he wants at different time and make sure them things are by your stands. And most stands I can walk up to them, And I wouldn't waste one day of my life setting in them. And I'm not being rude. I'm actually being honest. Everybody really wants a guy like me around them because I don't mean nothing by it. But I go, you got about a 10% chance killing that buck in that stand because he's only going to ever be here 10% of the time. You need to start making it so it's every place. So here's my driveway. I always tell everybody, I travel all over the country to do ultimate landmines, do about 100 a year, okay? All these different states. But you know where I go more than any place else? My driveway. So if you were hunting me, you don't want to sit on the toll road in Ohio and Pennsylvania. I may come by you, but it could be two months. I said, first of all, you need to get the buck to bet on your property and design his whole world on your property, and you're going to kill bucks easy. Until you have that, that's why all these guys are doing all this guessing. They buy a ton of gadgets. I use none of it. Because why? I broke it down to simple what he does and make simple stuff. And so I don't have all the gadgets out there. And there ain't nobody kills bucks faster and quicker and sees more bucks in a shorter period of time than me. And I use nothing at these big deer shows. You have a good weapon, learn whatever weapon you choose, how to be efficient with it. And then you use your mind and everything I do is more at a hardware store than it is at a sporting goods store to make my property great. 00:20:04 Speaker 1: What are a few things that are worthwhile to have next year to your stand in this scenario? That could be, you could add, and this is, you know, this is going out. This is, you know, it's now. So, like, it's, you know, there's not a licking branch here. You can hang that in there when you go, like, some of those things. 00:20:21 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you definitely want a bunch of scrapes. So, during the scrape period is when it's most predictable. If you're hunting a stand, you don't got 10 scrapes within your shooting distance. You don't understand big bucks because a lot of guys are sitting on a food plot where there ain't even a place to make a scrape. Right. And what does most properties do when they make a food plot? They cut all the branches off so they can get in there and farm. You want to know what? The food may only be there for 30 days, 60 days. The licking branch would have brought him for 12 months. He don't care if the food's there. As long as there's a licking branch, he'll go down through there. You don't understand licking branches to connect the dots to how he travels properties. And where he's going even on another property all determines the licking branches. So there's one thing that you need to make sure you have on your property. But there's a hundred scenarios. You know, guys, just talking about the stand being in the wrong point. The other thing is most people are hunting on two bigger food plots. Here's a buck. His whole life's about hiding, especially when you get a four and a five and a half year old buck or older. His whole life is about being sneaky. And this guy is sitting on a food plot that you can literally see 400 yards across. Do you really think a buck that's hiding all day long wants to walk over to this edge of this woods? And here he's been in cover and he can see to him 20 miles the way his mind works. And he's going to just walk out there calmly. That's why most guys are sitting in a stand and go, I wouldn't waste one day of my life. That buck doesn't feel safe enough to go out there. You got to make sure once you get a buck at a certain age, what is he like to walk into? Are you making sure your food plot setup is something that he feels calm in instead of a big food plot? You get guys who want to put a stand out in the middle of the food plot, which is the dumbest thing you could ever do in your life. You better be a rifle hunter because you're going to need it. I go, guys, I don't care what weapon you use. You can be a total gun hunter. And I go, what you want to do is make that buck feel calm at 30 yards by your stand. I don't care if he's got powder burns on him when you're done shooting him. You should make him feel calm. If you have to use your rifle to shoot at, you had to hunt a lot to get him to stand out in that field because he don't want to be there. When a buck is calm, he's easy to harvest. When he's nervous, it's hard to do. And I go, most guys don't realize their whole set up And then when guys see something wrong, instead of really thinking it through or coming to a place like my place to learn all these different little tactics, they start buying gadgets. So now they're out making a ton of noise out of their stand, rattling, grunting, and all the other stuff. They're trying to throw a decoy out there. And it's a domino effect. One mistake brings another mistake. And I use none of that stuff. 00:23:16 Speaker 3: None. 00:23:18 Speaker 4: And guess what? Every buck is zooming by me all day long. And why? It's built through their mind, not mine. Most stands are designed through a predator's mind. I become the animal and go, here's what he wants. So I'm hiding him, making him think he's all slick and he's sneaking, and he's standing right where I want it. I'm one step ahead of him. And that's how I actually kill big bucks. That's how I show people to do that at my boot camps. 00:23:46 Speaker 1: So, yeah. 00:23:47 Speaker 4: That's why I'm one of these guys. I get on the internet. And just the other day, cause you said you were coming and, and you know, I don't know nothing about things. I don't get on nothing. You asked my wife, I've never turned a deer show on that TV in my entire life. And I've only seen little segments when I've been at somebody's place and they're getting around and it happens to be on. When I start looking at stuff, most of it's one-on-one. I'm amazed at what guys are trying to explain. And it's like, and they're not holding back. They ain't like a guy like me that is that, Charges for all my knowledge of all my years of studies. They are trying to show everything. And I go, they left out 10 things that's important. Now, either they don't know it. Or they're not covering, I don't know which it is, don't matter. A guy gets on there, it's like misinformation because it ain't solving all the stuff. That's why I'm not trying to be rude when I'm talking. But if I'm not going to cover all the details, I'll at least tell you there's more to the story. Now, it's up to you whether you get it or not get it. That's okay. But I don't want to think that you think that you just got my system when you didn't. I don't mind going out and giving people 10 things that I know will help them. But I go, guys, there's a lot more than that. That's why I said I don't care how many big bucks you've ever killed. You come to my boot camp. I'll change the way you hunt because there's so many more tactics you can use to make your job easier and also to use up more time of big bucks so they don't get killed on the neighbors. Perfect. 00:25:16 Speaker 1: So in a perfect world. You're going to know where he's going to go because you've developed and designed this area to where it's this high probability. 00:25:23 Speaker 4: And that's why I don't like the rut. 00:25:25 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:25:25 Speaker 4: Because it's the only time I can't pick. I don't know what girl came into heat last night. None of that. 00:25:30 Speaker 1: Yeah. Which next week we'll have you on and we're going to dive into the rut. And so once again, it's ultimate land management. 00:25:37 Speaker 6: Yeah. 00:25:37 Speaker 4: And then the whitetail boot camp. 00:25:39 Speaker 1: Whitetail boot camp. All right. Next up, we have Jason Michael. He hunts all across the country and has already hunted multiple states this year already. And we're going to get his take on capitalizing this time of year based off of a little bit of Intel and a little bit of guessing, because ultimately that's what it is. So here is Jason's answer. All right, Jason, welcome back to back 40. It's now October 29th. And, um, hopefully some of us in the last episode, they have a new buck to hunt. And, uh, this kind of leads into this next question, this next dilemma. And that's really what the back 40 is, is we all fall into these same traps and ruts and thought processes. And, uh, hopefully, uh, We try to demystify some things and give people a sense of direction for the next two weeks, arguably the best two weeks if you're a whitetail hunter. So my question for you, are you hunting where a buck was or where he's going next? And it's kind of a loaded question because no one knows exactly. But what's your answer to that? 00:26:34 Speaker 3: Ultimately, I would want to know hopefully where he was and have some sort of knowledge of where he's bedding. Or if I just got my eyes on him, say passing down the road and I'm like, oh my word, I just showed up into my destination state and I'm there a day or two and get some stand sets riding around and I get my eyes physically on him. I'm going to try the best I can, maybe use an onyx, look things over, especially if it's public or a new private farm or lease where that bedding is. And then I'm going to look and see where the crops are. Then I'm probably just going to very quickly out the window or with binoculars, analyze the crop. 00:27:09 Speaker 5: Is it beans or corn? 00:27:10 Speaker 1: Is it harvested? 00:27:11 Speaker 3: Is it not harvested? And just try and find that destination area where I'm now guessing. I'm surmising only at this point, trying to put the little pieces of the puzzle together. And then I would probably do, like you'll hear Adam say, you know, on one of your more recent podcasts, Adam A's observation stand. I'm taking my bow, but I'm going to watch. And I have no knowledge, no trail camera knowledge, for example, and I'm going to find out where them does are stepping out. And after about one at the most two evenings of doing that, then I'll probably move in on him. And yeah, I don't know. And again, this is just me being me. Like I've said in the, in the more recent podcast, I'm not going in there and blow that place up. I'm going to keep it simple, stupid. 00:27:54 Speaker 1: It's almost November, Jason. 00:27:56 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, but we're going to go in there and I'm going to, I'm going to hunt from the outside in and just start working in on it. 00:28:04 Speaker 1: Let's, uh, let's throw another monkey in the wrench here. Um, It's October 29th. This deer has been kind of hitting a scrape on an inside corner of a field. It's in staining corn right now. And then two days later, you open up the app, check your cell camera, combine. How do you proceed from that point? Because at this time, there's so much change. Hunting pressure is increasing. Row crops are changing. Depending on what part of the country, we probably have had a hard frost. And so a lot of the lowland grass, the reed canary grass is starting to lay down. leaves were falling. So there's so much change. How do you take all that into consideration to where he's kind of like, man, it seems like he's been partial to this area. And now that we took this corn away or whatever the case may be, where is the next spot? And if there's any sort of pattern or tips that you can share with anyone. 00:28:54 Speaker 3: Ultimately to me, the corn's off. So the food source just went through the roof and I mean, in a better way. So I'm going to relish that moment. And then Again, depending on what I can see with my eyes or I could test the waters and go back in maybe 100 yards deep, it starts getting thick. The quicker it starts getting thicker or identify rubs or scrapes kind of quickly, I'm not going back in 300 or 400 yards. I'm just not doing that. Again, this is if I'm pretty new to this property and I'm just getting there and I'm just trying to get set up for the first time. If I owned it for three years or four years or leased it or had private permission, that would probably be a different scenario. But To just go in and do a quick assessment of it, I'm going to do my dangdest to find out, what, you know, you said about that edge scrape, and I'm going to backtrack that just a little bit. And then I may go back in and get into what, you know, the old school days of calling that staging area. And then ultimately, if I'm back in the woods, 50, 60, 70 yards comfortably, that when I get down to maybe 30 minutes after dark, when I think the coast is clear, a forked horn passed by, some does pass by, maybe he didn't come through that evening. that I can get down and just belly or a banana shape back deeper into the timber. I'm like a cat as much as possible. I won't go out towards the edge of that field. Even if I did bump them, I want to bump them mildly. 00:30:09 Speaker 1: Do you think there's any truth to the idea, you know, October 29th to November 12th of the rut is sometimes complex and also sometimes pretty simple. And one simple way to say, how do you hunt the rut? You get downwind of doe bedding. Do you think that's a fair strategy for someone to, you know, the most simplified version of hunting over the next two weeks? It would be. 00:30:30 Speaker 3: But again, October 29th was the key scenario from a start date from then on. So we're still in like peak scraping. And some of that peak scraping, as much as you can kill a deer over a mock scrape or get on his scrape line 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd. And I think historically, Jake, you've even identified with your cameras 17th, 18th, 19th of October. 00:30:49 Speaker 1: If the weather hits right, yeah. 00:30:50 Speaker 3: Was actually better. 00:30:51 Speaker 5: Than the 24th, 25th. Mm-hmm. 00:30:54 Speaker 3: Camera-wise, surveillance-wise. But yeah, I'd just be still being like what you call, now you're a really intense pre-rut hunter at this point. The 29th of October going into like November 3rd, 4th, 5th is super intense, and it's still a scrape period. Onesie, twosies, those does are coming in, make no mistake about it, but one, two, three percent. But still, you're going to catch the majority of those deer hitting the scrapes, coming out, that third and fourth of November is still super huge for pre-rut, and they're still coming out, circling the does in the field and bumping them. Lockdown's still five, six, seven, eight days away. 00:31:35 Speaker 1: Just my observations, about till November 3rd, from the 29th to the November 3rd, pattern's very similar. And then from that point on, obviously you're still going to get pictures of bucks on scrapes and everything else, but that does seem to be a particular window. If you have one in mind right now, have an idea of where they're hanging out. I feel like you have, what, 29th? 29th, 30th, 31st, you know, six days? 00:32:00 Speaker 4: Yep. 00:32:02 Speaker 1: Would you agree with that? Have you had similar observations? 00:32:04 Speaker 3: No, that is almost dead on the money, and I'll go back as far as 50 years ago when the Wenzels wrote their book, Barry and Gene Wenzel, Bowhunting October, White Tails. 00:32:13 Speaker 1: Pioneers of the Space. 00:32:14 Speaker 3: Pioneers, and then come November, my favorite book ever in the Whitetail world. October 27th till November 3rd. That's what they said in the book? Dynamics. 00:32:25 Speaker 1: Wow. 00:32:26 Speaker 3: 50 years of bow hunting white tails and then in fine print on the cover and paying attention. 27th of October to November 3rd. 00:32:33 Speaker 1: Do or die. That's it. 00:32:35 Speaker 3: It's night and day from October 20th and it's night and day from November 10th on. It's its own beast. And it is ultimately the time to truly get a deer out of his bed coming And where a grunt call or snort wheezing, mock scrapes, it is the window. November 10th, for the most part, it's too late. October 20th is still on the head of it being effective. 00:32:58 Speaker 1: And last part of this, I'll give you 30 to 60 seconds to describe where you think this deer's headed next. Thick bedding area on a, and it obviously depends on the part of the country, but on an oak flat that's thick on a point. Like what, when people are like, oh man, you know, I hump between this transition or the staging area. and have a great opportunity over the next six or seven days, where would you, if you had to boil it down to the most basic terms of where that buck is likely spending a lot of time? Bet it. For this time period. 00:33:27 Speaker 3: Where is he going to be located? 00:33:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, bet it. Yeah. 00:33:33 Speaker 3: The thickest, most undisturbed spot he can find. And it may only be 70 yards off that still standing field or potentially cut cornfield. 00:33:41 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:33:42 Speaker 3: It doesn't mean, oh, he's a big deer. I got to go 400 yards deep, even though I'm hunting a 2,000 acre piece of public maybe at a destination spot. But those deer for the most part, and that's a whole broken scenario there for another time. But when he leaves at 4 a.m. or 5 a.m. in the morning, or even before you're parking your truck, he's pretty much heading back in. If it's like October 20th, 25th, even November 1st, they're still lagging behind depending on where you're at, um, it isn't like they go back in bed in the same bed every day, that six foot by six foot square area. And it isn't like the spring gobbler gets on that same exact limb every evening for 10 evenings in a row. It just doesn't work that way, but he's going to go back in, you know, let's say he's a five and six year old deer, these upper end deer that we're trying to even get a, get on, have a chance to hunt. Uh, He's going to go back in bed based on the wind, the thermals that morning, or just what's going on. And he's going to bed in an area that gives him the most advantage of survival. 00:34:47 Speaker 5: Perfect. 00:34:47 Speaker 1: Jason, where can people follow along with your season? 00:34:50 Speaker 3: JasonMichael803 on Instagram. 00:34:52 Speaker 1: And closing things out, we have Skip Sly, born in Michigan, hunted all across the Midwest, and has observed a lot of deer behavior, a ton. And although he has private ground, he has intel and cameras everywhere. an experience on small properties, big properties, and ultimately observant of what bucks do. So here is Skip's answer for this week. 00:35:14 Speaker 3: All right. 00:35:15 Speaker 1: It's October 29th. Okay. Exciting time of year. 00:35:18 Speaker 5: I'm tagged out. 00:35:22 Speaker 1: That wouldn't be the first time someone answered that so far. Okay. It's October 29th and you have a whole month of intel of this buck. It's October 29th. Are you hunting where he's been or where he is going next in your opinion? 00:35:37 Speaker 6: The only time I'm doing it is if I know where he's going is if I'm a very seasoned hunter, I know the history of that deer and I know where he shifts. If I'm the average guy that's like, Hey, I got permission on this farm. You, you're just making the, obviously you don't have any data. You don't have any history to go off. So if you really can't know. So if I, I mean, I would say if I have a historical context of the deer, this is what he does. I'm always going to try and get ahead of him. 00:36:04 Speaker 1: And, uh, you know, how often does that actually work or like play out where, man, it's October, it's the end of October, this buck showed up on a scrape and he's here for like two or three days. And then maybe he goes somewhere else. And does that make sense? Yeah. 00:36:17 Speaker 6: And, you know, people who are extremely seasoned hunters that really spent a lot of time at this and really, you know, get to a deeper level with this, we'll know where to place themselves later. And, and I'll know, like, This deer kind of moves to the southwest corner of my farm. And if I hunt this corridor every year in November, he starts cruising through there and his range shifts. You just know that stuff. If I'm the casual guy, you know, I suppose the same thing would be part of the plan. But, you know, it's just trying to get ahead of him. Um, with any Intel, just give it your best world. 00:36:58 Speaker 1: And do you think you're, you're kind of behind the eight ball if you just go to where, where he has been for like the last three or four days? And it's the end of October where, like, do you think that's a fair strategy? 00:37:08 Speaker 5: I would try it. 00:37:09 Speaker 6: If he's been somewhere three days in a row and I say, what's the chances he's there in the fourth day? 00:37:14 Speaker 4: It's reasonable. 00:37:15 Speaker 5: I'd give it a whirl. I'd give it a whirl at least one time. 00:37:18 Speaker 6: And then if you're like, Hey, I gave it a whirl one time, go back the next day and try the next play, you know, chess thinking these levels ahead. And I would look at the week, like if I had a whole week, I would start thinking, okay. And I'd start looking at the winds and be like, you know, by three days from now, I know where I'm probably going to go. Four days from now, I know where I'm going to go. And I'd probably rotate around based on the wind, based on the weather. And then it's just a probability of, I think I'll have a chance at them. 00:37:48 Speaker 5: And that's all it is. You just have, you just think you'll have a chance at them. And that's all I want. And what do I do? what do I want to like a guaranteed? Some people do. 00:37:58 Speaker 1: Some people do. 00:37:58 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:37:59 Speaker 5: And that's lame. 00:38:02 Speaker 1: Um, what this describe, I'm just curious actually for, if you had to just describe it's October 29th to November 3rd, describe where you are most excited to be on a food, on a green food source, on a pinch, uh, downwind of bedding, like from, from that perspective. 00:38:25 Speaker 6: How about in my own bed? Just sleeping in. So no, I do like late October and early November. I like the cold mornings and I like spots I can slip in and just still get them a little bit on that feed to bed movement. 00:38:46 Speaker 5: They're still a little bit. 00:38:47 Speaker 6: They're not, they're not going bananas all over the place by then. They're just, they're just chasing that, that big loop bed. food and in between. 00:38:55 Speaker 5: So I'm just covering that, covering that corridor. 00:38:58 Speaker 6: And in the mornings, it's always generally, it's a spot I can slip into like an example. And there's a million example, of course, but example would be like, okay, I got cattle pasture where it's almost like a deer desert. And I call cattle pasture, like, like I like it because it's worthless. So I use the cattle pasture for access to sneak in the back door. And it might be out another directions of food And then the, the cover is over here and I can use a cattle pasture to get in with the wind maybe blowing in my face. 00:39:28 Speaker 5: You know, that's one of a million examples. 00:39:30 Speaker 6: And then I can get in there real early and sit till 10, 11 o'clock. I mean, whenever the action kind of slows or, and I, and if it slows, I still want to sit another hour, hour and a half after that. And then the evening, October 29 to early or whatever the dates are. 00:39:48 Speaker 1: November 3rd. 00:39:49 Speaker 6: Would be like kind of, you know, your scrapes around the food, you know, like egg fields that just got harvested, maybe a food plot area where they're doing a lot of scraping and those bucks are coming into the food to check the does and kind of, they're starting to get away from scrapes a little bit, you know, and maybe they're making some scrapes, but they're probably, their attention is more on the does by that point. So, you know, you start getting around the food with the does in any context, and that could be eight You know, if there's acorns around, if there's a pick field, if there's an alfalfa field, whatever, just wherever they're feeding, just trying to get around there and getting as close in there. So the does are coming out and then the bucks clearly, I mean, obvious are going to follow. And then, you know, just having a spot that I can get out of there undetected or, you know, if I do have trouble, then I have alternatives for the next few days. So I'm rotating my spot. So I'm not hunting that spot over and over and over and ruining it. 00:40:48 Speaker 3: Perfect. 00:40:48 Speaker 1: Okay. Best place to find you? 00:40:53 Speaker 5: Iowa Whitetail or on my farm or in the woods. 00:40:57 Speaker 1: All right, there you guys have it. I hope you guys enjoyed this week's episode of Back 40. We're going to be back on November 2nd talking about the rut, and I hope you guys have a great end of October, a strong start to November, and we'll be here for another episode of Back 40 with our panel of guests. I hope you guys get a cold front, get some rut activity, and able to soak in this moment that we've all been waiting for I know the temperatures aren't great I know everything's not going to plan remember this is what we've been waiting for so we'll see you next time