00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon, and this is episode number two hundred and twenty and Tay in the show, I'm joined by outdoor writer, author in d I Y Public and pressured land deer hunter John Eberhart, and we're discussing a bunch of different interesting strategies and tools for becoming a more mobile deer hunter. All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Onyx. And today on the show, we've got John Eberhart back with us again. And I mentioned this on previous episodes that we've done with him, but if you're new, I do think this is worth saying again. You know, John has been possibly the most important influence on me as a hunter. He is a writer in Deer and Deer Hunting magazine. He's the host of a web video series for them. He's the co author of books such as Bow Hunting Pressured white Tails, Precision bow Hunting, and Bow Hunting White Tails eber heart Way. He has a series of DVDs. He puts on white Tailed workshops in Michigan, and he's just widely considered one of the most successful and well known d I Y deer hunters on pressured land or public land. And for me, it was a light switch moment when I picked up his book that's called Precision Bow Hunt, and when I picked that up and read it somewhere around it a little over a decade ago, I think it just changed things for me. And I've been on this very different, much more successful trajectory ever since then. So would that being the case. I'm always excited to have him on the podcast and to share his experiences with you guys, and today it's no different. We're diving into one particular aspect of his hunting kind of repertoire, which is this idea of being a mobile hunter. And it's something that Dan and I am previous guests, have talked about a lot in the past, but but John is a master of this, so I wanted to pick his brain a bit about this today, about you know, why being mobile and agile and adaptable as a deer hunter is so important. And when I say this, I don't mean, you know, being agile in the tree. I mean being mobile or agile, as in your ability to hunt different places, to move from location to location, to be able adapt based off of new intel or scouting or observation. So in today's episode, I'm grilling John on this topic. I pick his brain about his two thousand and seventeen hunting season, and we end up focusing in particular on a tool he uses to be a more effective mobile deer hunter, which is a tree saddle. Now really quick, if you're not familiar. Essentially this this tree saddle or sling or harness, whatever you wanna call it, it's it's an alternative to a tree stand. Essentially, it allows you to hang from the tree in this type of harness without needing to have a pre set up tree standard having to tote hang on stand or climbing stand around with you when you're trying to hunt new spots. So it's a really intriguing option for anybody who wants to hunt a lot of different locations or new property or public land, etcetera, etcetera. So we dive into that stuff. Very interesting. I'm excited for you to hear, so I think we should probably just get right to it. So we will take a very quick break here to thank our partners at Onyx, and then we will move on to the rest of the show, so quickly here. If you're not familiar with Onyx, they produce a hunting GPS app and GPS chips that provide detailed digital maps for hunters. These include property lines and owner information, public land borders and designations, topo lines, satellite imagery, just about anything you would want to see from a hunting perspective. And right now I'm in the process of planning my two thousand eighteen Montana whitetail hunt, for which I'm actually gonna be returning to a spot that I found last year using the Onyx app. Not to do that, I just pulled up Onyx and I looked at maps for the area I generally knew I wanted to focus on, and I overlaid the public and private land borders and satellite imagery, and then I looked at this river corridor that I wanted to hunt and just scrolled along the map until I found different pieces of public land that intersected with the quality cover along the river. From there, I put together this list of the best looking spots, and I then got property owner names and addresses for the adjacent private land. So when I made it there to Montana in September, I was able to drive around the back roads take a look at these properties, you know, in person, and then I actually went and chatted with some of the neighboring landowners based off of the information I got from Onyx. And this ended up being crucially important because it led to some permission to cross private land access some of this hard to get to public land, and then the spring, it led to shed hunting permission. And if you listen to my episodes the spring, you know that my Montana shed hunting went very well. And uh, none of that would have happened if it wasn't for the app that I used to locate these areas. So if you're interested in learning more about Onyx yourself, you can visit onyx maps dot com or search for Onyx on your phone's app store. So with that said, then let's get right to the show and get chatting with John Eberhart. All right, we're back today with John Eberhardt. And John, you've been on the show twice before, so thanks now for making it lucky number three. Mark. I am grateful for the opportunity. Thank you very much. Hey, it's my it's my pleasure. I've said it many times before, but I've always been able to point to you as being one of the most important influences on me as a deer hunter. So so it's it's always a treat to get to actually chat with you in person. And the first couple of times we had you on the show, we kind of dived deep across area. Maybe let me take you that back. We didn't dive deep. We kind of did like a full spectrum look at how you approach deer hunting and heavily pressured places and in public lands, and we kind of touched on a whole slew of different topics that that you focus on, But today I kind of wanted to focus on just one piece of that, and that was how you were able to be a mobile deer hunter. So the importance of being mobile and flexible and being able to hunt and make changes on the fly. I know that's something you talk a lot about, and you also talk a lot about how you use a saddle to do that. So so kind of my goal here John, today was to cover that topic in depth. Before we get to that, though, I know that you had an interesting two thousand seventeen season. I always like to hear about how your recent hunts went. Last time we talked, you just came off of a two thousand sixteen season where I think, I think you said, I think you killed two hundred forty plus bucks. It's sounds like that was an incredible year. In two thousand and seventeen, I did read a story of a frustrating hunt of yours and then a cool hunt of yours. Um, would you be up for telling us those two stories? Absolutely? The first one was in Michigan and it was a it was kind of a hunt where I had these preset locations on thirty seven acres. I think I have sixteen different trees prepared on this thirty seven acre parcel, which I hunt with two other hunters um free permission property. And uh I went in on an evening hunt to hunt A specific tree was a red oak tree behind a standing cornfield and it had I'm sorry sorry interrupted. When was this? What time of year? It was October? October? Mid October, Yeah, yep, mid kind of a little later than mid October. I can I think it was October? Memory serves me correctly, and anyway, I went and there was this red oak and it had several scrapes under it from the twenty sixteen season when I prepared the tree, and uh, when I went to this tree, I knew that if those scrapes were not going to be active, that I was going to have to go to another tree, in which I would have had to cross a river, and the actual river, not a creek. So I took my waiters with me, and when I got to the tree, the red oak with the scrapes underneath, that the scrapes were inactive. So I walked down the edge of the cornfield and then went through a little cattail marsh area of forty yards and crossed the river. And I had another tree prepped just across the river, maybe fifty yards from the water, and it was bedding area all around it. So that's what I did. I crossed the river, set up on that tree, and Uh. On that evening hunt, there was a dough that came which was actually kind of early in the year for this, but October nineteenth, this dough came out of the bedding area, ran across the river, I mean, didn't stop hesitate, ran across the river through that forty yard gap of marsh and into the standing cornfield. So I knew for her to run across the river like that something was behind her. And within several seconds I heard of, you know, a grunt, and sure enough, here comes this buck that I knew was in the area. I had, I actually had a picture of him that another hunter on the property had a picture which he showed me, and it was a big nine point in uh. I stopped him at about fourteen yards and took the shot and killed him. And so that was the That was the good hunt. And I kind of look at that as a you know, not really a freelance hunt, because I wasn't freelancing to another location, you know, just looking for a new spot. But I did go to a preset location that was not active, so I I became proactive and went to a different location where I had to actually use waiters to cross the river for my for my entry. So why why did you why did you choose to go into that first location, Like what was the rationale? Why did you say okay, today's October? What conditions or factors pointed you to say, okay, I'm gonna head to this tree, check it out, and then if that doesn't work out, then I've got to plan b. What what pointed you in that direction, Well, it was, you know, October nineteenth, and that's that's kind of getting close to the beginning of that pre rut phase where mature bucks start checking their you know, checking their scrape areas during daylight hours. You know, it's pretty common during that October law to have scraped be very very active. But if it's if they're being checked by a mature buck there typically in a state like Michigan with so much hunting pressure, it's usually during the security of darkness. So October nineteenth is getting about the time frame, you know, twentieth somewhere near where bucks start to break that nocturnal time frame and start sent checking for early estus does and obviously their scrape areas are on that routine. So that's why I went to that don't because it had scrapes there from the previous fall when I prepared it, and I was going into check and if the scrapes were active, I was going to hunt that tree. And if they were inactive, my plan was to go over to the edge of this betting area right on the edge of the river where you know, that's just going to be a natural flow for deer, and that's that's exactly what I did. And obviously, you know, the pre route was starting to kick in because this buck pushed this dough out of the betting area and he was going to follow her across the river into that standing corn. So she must have been very close to or possibly even you know, been one of those early does that come into Astros early. That's interesting to see that happened so early. Curious before we before we fast forward all the way to the late season in that other hunt I mentioned as as I'm as I'm hearing you talk about this October nineteenth hunt, I'm just kind of curious, like, what does your season look like in you know, in the Michigan hunting season or during your typical year. Are you going out and hunting somewhere almost every day or you just hunting you know, the weekends, or do you sit do you have you know, forty different locations and you just look at you know, okay, what factors point me here? Or do you just say okay. In the early season, I know I've got fifteen stands and have some kind of apples tree, or some kind of food source. I'm just gonna cycle through each of these until i find the hot sign. I'm just kind of at a high level. What does your mindset in season look like as it begins and shifts through the year when you're just making your decisions of when and where to hunt. Well, keeping in keeping in mind that I'm from Michigan, which is the most heavily bonded state in the country. Uh, most of the bucks that I'm trying to kill, because I hunt strictly public land and free knock on doors for permission properties, they get a lot of pressure the whole area. Even on the free permission properties. You know, all of the hunters in the area surrounding properties, you know, they all boon. So there could be anywhere from fifteen to possibly thirty bow hunters that are hunting in a six or forty acre section. So most of them mature bucks are nocturnal prior to the season even opening because of all the other hunters. Preseason scouting and location prep, that's what I do all my stuff to a postseason um. So typically I'll hunt the first three days of the season, and that would be mornings and evenings, no matter what the dates are. It's not just a weekend deal. I have the luxury of having a job where I can hunt some week days and then typically after the like the third, possibly even the fourth fourth day of season, I might hunt, depending on weather conditions. If it's you know, drizzly rain or nasty weather, I will hunt, Whereas if it's a nice, sunny, bloo bird day, usually after the third I'm done, and then I typically don't hunt until around the twentieth of October. And then again it's going to dictate on weather conditions, and deer are gonna move a lot. A mature buck that I'm trying to pursue and kill is gonna be more apt to move during inclement weather conditions around the twentieth of October. You know, if it's rainy or cold or something like that, then he's gonna do on a you know, seventy five degree blue bird day, You're going to see a lot of other types of deers sporting of bucks and doze and stuff on blue bird days. But for a mature buck to move that early in October, you know, which is the kind of the somewhat the beginning of the pre run. It's got a very pretty nasty weather for him to do that. Um in which what's kind of weird is this particular day, it was actually a pretty nice day, and I spent it and I was still successful, but I was just I was just getting to the point where I was, you know, got you guts start hunting, you know, as a as a deer hunter. When you totally quit hunting for two weeks, you know, there's just something internally that says you're missing out, you know. And and this was a location. It was in central Michigan where there's not typically a lot of big Bucks and and uh, you know, my better spots are in southern Michigan where there's more egg and swamp. And I said, what the heck, I'll just go out this evening and see what's going on because I had some free time. How many different yea, this is something I always struggle with. I'm always wondering, you know, do I have enough different options as far as properties. Every year, I inevitably find myself at some point during the season wishing that I had more places that I had ready to go or that I could check out. And I was when I when we talked to all these different people. You find typically two different types of successful deer hunters. You've got one that owns some land and they're able to control it. So those guys have got their own thing going on they can control. But for the people that don't own land, for folks like you that are hunting either public land or private by permission, usually the most consistent ones seem to have a bunch of spots lined up so that they can on any given year they have many, many different options, so that if one's messed up because of other hunters or because some type of conditions aren't right, or whatever might be, they have a whole bunch of backups in any given year. How many different properties or areas do you have kind of available to to to go hunt during a given year, during a typical year, and I'm going back, maybe let's say over the last I've been belonging over fifty years, and over the last thirty five years, I'll typically have two to three private parcels where I've acquired free hunting permission, and several public land parcels. And it's extremely rare that I will not have at least forty trees prepped during season. You know, during post season is when I do all that stuff, and I'll usually have forty trees prepped every year before season starts. And some are going to be some are early season trees. Some are gonna be you know, viewing secondary trees for that October wall where I may just go sit where I can have a viewing area. Others are going to be pre ret locations Sothers are gonna be rut phase locations of you know, peak rout locations. Primarily those are going to be embedding areas where deer chasing and actually doing the breeding. Uh. Some are going to be morning locations, Some are midday locations. Some are strictly evening locations. You know, if you're if you're preparatory, let's they have a couple of apple trees. Prep Those are strictly evening locations because if you enter them in a morning, you're gonna spook deer feeding at them with your entry. And typically they're great early season locations if they've been left alone during preseason. They're good at early season locations where you might possibly catch them. Ature buck, you know, on his early season pattern, he hasn't turned nocturnal yet um. You know, so that's a feeding location because the early season everything revolves around food, whereas when it gets closer to the rut phases, everything revolves around sex and dough activity. So you know, everything has a rhyme and a reason, and the more options of hunter has, the more successful he will be. It's rare that I hunt any location more than three times during the course of the season, any specific stand location. You're saying, yes, correct, And it's extremely rare I hunt any specific tree more than three hunts per season. And you know, and you prep. You know, if I have forty fifty trees prepped, you know in summer at white oak summer at apple trees, uh summer at primary scrape areas, you know, those were pre set from the previous season sign or just re readdressed and recleaned up because there stands up hunted for years. And obviously the years the apple trees are not producing or white oaks aren't producing acorns, or red oaks or whatever, or crop rotations changed the scrape areas. Those those trees, even though there maybe forty or fifty total, you know, twenty five of them, five of them are going to become totally irrelevant just because of the food sources. Would you would you say that the majority of the days and you actually kill a deer are happening on a sit in a tree for that year. So many people talk about Yeah, so many people we talked to. It's that that power of the very first set seems to be disproportionately. Those are the those are the times we end up killing something. Well, well, I look at I look at myself a little bit different than most most hunters because my set control is pretty much perfect. I paid zero attention to the wind, so I feel very comfortable sitting. Let's say it's November one, pre rd. You know, it's right in the middle of pre right, and I'm let's say, hunting over a primary scrape area. You know, as long as i'm or let's say I'm hunting in an apple tree that's still dropping apples, where I know dear going to come in and I'm going to physically see dear, as long as I'm not seeing a change in the number of deer I'm seeing or the activity let's say the scrape area. You know, it's remaining active, and I know I'm not spooking anything with my entries and exits. I'm not spooking anything on stand because nothing can win me. Um, I will hunt that several times in a row, you know, two to three times in a row, and that will be my three three hunts from that location, because um, I'm not I'm not concerned about spook and stuff. Most hunters don't have a very good scent control, even the TV. I've never seen a TV guy with a decent scent control regiment. And so every time they go in and hunt a location, they're leaving residual order on the ground from their entries, from their exits, and deer spook because they're down wind of them, and so they're as soon as they start hunting a location, they're altering deer traffic at that location because of their human odor. I don't view it that way because I don't get winded, and I can have deer walk through a weed field that I've walked through, you know, prior with my entry and not spook. So to me, that's a little bit different than me than most hunters because of my scent control. So I think I can get away with hunting something several times without altering it, whereas most hunters can't. And that's really important during the rut phases because when you're hunting mature bucks in a state like Michigan where there's very very few mature bucks and they're typically with dose during the breeding cycle period. You know, during the main run um, you know, you may hunt over a primary scrape area and not see anything, but the mature buck you're trying to kill is doted up. He's someplace else. You know, he's with the dolls. So once she's finished with that cycle, Uh, he's going to have to go out and search for another estrus dolls. So then he may possibly come and visit that scrape area because that's in his routine of searching for dose. So when you know, so because of my secontrol, I'm I'm able to hunt a specific location, a destination location, several hunts in a row without concern. And that way, you know when he does come back, that traffic is still coming in and out of that spot and that's where he's going to continue to search for his next test still because the first hunt or two I wanted, Derek, he may have been built up right, right, So speaking of that time frame, then you killed your buck on October nineteenth last year. Any any other notable encounters or hunts in the in the following two weeks, then for you in Michigan, anything that stands out, I never saw another shooter. Wow, the only good buck I saw during the entire season. Anything you can attribute to did you have something happen on a property that screwed things up, or just just kind of how it goes in Michigan. That's just kind of how it goes in Michigan because you can't beat up your stands a lot and uh, you know, I move, I move around a lot, and nobody that was the only buck that any of the other hunters on any of the properties that I want at any pictures of it, I would kill. So I you know, it's not like us, you know, where you're going to have half a dozen eight eight mature bucks that a person might shoot in a section in Michigan because there's so few mature bucks, you know, there some some stats put it in you know, like there's one percent of the bucks in an area are you know, three and a half years and older. So you know, you if you had twenty bucks per section, you know, there may be five sections where You've only got one buck that I one buck that I would want to kill. So it's not like out west where there's just lots mature bucks, and uh, you know, in in Michigan, there's just years. There's been years I've never seen a shooter you know that I want to shoot. So it's it's just got a lot to do the properties. You know, fifteen and sixteen, I think all three of those years I killed two book Bucks in Michigan. Uh, so you know they were there and I had the opportunity to kill them. Um, and in seventeen that just didn't seem to be the case. Obviously, de you're going to move in from other areas are in the main rut. But I just wasn't on the stand at the right time. And I don't use cameras, so like, I don't really I can't really tell what was there, you know, when I wasn't. I don't use cameras in Michigan. Yeah. A couple of years ago, when we first had you on the podcast, you talked about why it is that you At that time you said that you used camera sparingly. I think, UM, have you have your thoughts on cameras evolved at all recently. It sounds like now you're using them not at all. Is there a particular reason why you've gone completely zero use on that now? One of that big buck ey shot in and opening morning, I had used a camera there because it was a location that I had went back to because somebody else had seen this fucking told me about it. It was properly I hundred years ago, very tiny little parcel. So I used a camera in that specific location, on that specific property because I could put a camera in an invasive location and take a survey elements of what the buck he's talking about, how actually big it was. But most of the properties I hunt are not close to my house. This one was relatively close to where I live. Um, and I just don't I don't add the time, and I don't like making the physical intrusions of a you know, to check cameras. I think that's very invasive in a highly pressured state where mature bucks don't allow a lot of invasiveness. You know, they avoid those areas until after dark. And that's why I don't use cameras very very infrequently. In Michigan. Last year, I did not have a camera out Now I totally hunt cameras. When I hunt out of state, I put a camera at every single location, because dear just aren't that smart. And and when I say out of state, obviously i'm I'm going to the iwas in Kansas, and you know, southern Illinois, where you know, there's a lot of a lot of mature bucks and very very little cunning competition, and and you can be relativetively in true sieve, and it doesn't really mean a lot to deer still do what they do. So, speaking of those odd state hunts, then you did you did another one of your late season Ohio hunts. I heard about last year. How how did that all go down? That was really interesting that that was a major mistake got my part and I wrote an article about it. Um, I didn't look at the weather. I've done very well out of state in December after you know, like Illinois gun season or after the Ohio gun season, go out there and bowl on and I've had a pretty decent success rate. And but I always looked at the weather, and this time I didn't. I had a specific open time that I could go, and I just went. And it was kind of in the mid thirties, and then got a little bit of snow, got like two inches of snow, and then it got down into the teams the rest of the week, and and everything was so crunchy. I mean you could look as soon as I would get out of my minivan and take a step, take a couple of steps towards the woods, I could hear deer running. I mean they could literally hear crunching snow or crunching leaves, probably for a quarter mile. Because it was also no win that week. It was just dead calm, and obviously in December there's no foliage to to kind of absorb absorb the noise, you know, my walking noise. So um, I made a big mistake by not checking the weather. You know, typically on my out of state hunts in December, I wait till there's a decent amount of snow where I can walk quietly and I'm looking at you know, deer sign within twenty four hours of when it was made. And on this hunt, I didn't. And I wrote an article about how stupid I was because that was doubled me not to check the weather. So so you had this crispy, crunchy leaves everywhere. How did you try to. I mean, it sounds like when you try to go into stands you were spooking, dear, But how did you try to adjust to that? We're able to find any way to pull it off to make a dooble hunt? I did on one of the locations, probably the best location. It was there was a huge cutover, probably a quarter of a mile from my tree stand, and it was not on the property I could hunt. The cutover wasn't they cut it over like five years ago, so it was just dense saplings. And the first time I went in there to hunt, I remember I started walking and it was an evening hunt. I totally abandoned morning hunts because morning hunts there was no way. And I started walking and within twenty yards of the end, I could hear deer running at least a quarter mile in front of me leaving the property I was hunting, going into wards and then taken off into that sampling area to cut over. So what I started doing on I only had three locations prepared total, and they were all on different properties, free permission properties. So what I started doing is I started getting up at eight o'clock in the morning because I wasn't gonna hunt. And I went to each three of those locations and I physically walked to the trees so that I would spook any deer that were betted back away from the location with the thought that hopefully in the evening when I went back to hunt, you know, they would have been calmed down enough for me going in at eight and they would filter back out, uh, you know, in in the evening before dark. And I did have one ten inch eight point walk under my tree that I passed on. He was just too small. So that that's what I did, is I just went into those locations earlier in the morning to spook any deer way beyond where I was going to hunt where they couldn't hopefully hear me come in the evening, and then they would filter back in because I was hunting and play is where there was food. Either I was either in a saddle transition saddle from from a bedding area to a feeding location, where I was in some at a location where there were some oaks, was some still some acorns on the ground. Interesting, So future hunts now late season, what's the big takeaway here? And wait again for the snow or anything else there yep, always, yes, I will always always look at the weather and wait for snow. That I killed two monster bucks in Illinois on public land. One was in two thousand and eight and one was in two thousand seven, two thousand seven and two thousand eight, and both times, uh, you know, I waited for there to be you know, unactu whether I waited for there to be a snow coming through, and then after it looked like it went through, I called the park rangers because those parks down there had park rangers, and asked them if they got the snow, and both times they did so. They had six to eight inches of fresh powder snow on the ground. So I left immediately. My vehicle was packed, and I had I had the luxury of having time, you know, whatever time we had snow, I could go. I had all of December open pretty much and U And so now when I get there, I'm there within twenty four hours of the snow. And when I'm scouting, I'm looking at sign that was made within the last twenty four hours, so it's all fresh sign. It's not like you're looking at bare ground or snow that's been on the ground for three weeks and you know, you can't you can't disseminate between fresh tracks and old tracks, or you know, fresh runaways and old runways. And so now I'm looking at Sinna was made immediately within the last twenty four hours, and that just made hunting easy. Both of those hunts two thousand seven, two th eight I killed I killed book Bucks. One was a D sixty twelve point on my very first evening hunt after scouting a day and a half and prepping, prepping a couple of locations, and then un hunting that first evening gun. I killed at nine point on the first hunt in two thousand seven and a twelve point two eight. This this is a perfect segue because you're you're talking here about a situation where you're going in, you're looking at brand new, fresh sign and then right away being able to react to that and set up stands and they're set up a hunting location right then and there. And I know there's many other examples of this kind of thing that I've heard you talk about, and it seems to come down to your ability to be mobile. You're able to go into a place and hunt somewhere, somewhere new quickly. You can adjust quickly. You can change your setup quickly. Um, why do you think being mobile as a deer hunter is important? Can you can you talk through some of the benefits there? Well? Yeah, being mobile is extremely important because first first off, when I say mobile, you know I'm not talking about you watch some of these TV commercials and you get somebody walking down a nice a steam to trick with a climber on their back and their bow and their backpack. You know that to me, that's not mobile, you know, And they're setting up in a tree on the fly, in an open timber because there in areas where there's so many venture bucks are going to get an opportunity pretty much no matter what they do. Um, when I'm talking mobile, I'm talking about you got a backpack, your bow, and I hunt out of something called the harness, uh saddle type harness. So I'm extremely mobile and being mobile is very important. All the trees I have prepped in Michigan because I've been hunting out of this harness system since they're all set up for this harness. So I can have forty fifty trees prepped and I can hunt out of all of them with this harness. That weighs about a pound and a half. So I just walked to the tree and jump up it and hunt it. So I you know, I can go from tree to tree and if the sign is not there, you know I hunt. I just wait until I hit a tree where the sign is there. It's it's there for me to hunt. Or for freelance hunting. You know, if you're freelance hunting on public land. My biggest buck I ever killed with hunter eight incher on a freelance hunt. Well, if you're freelancing on public land or in a pressured area, you're not walking down a two track and you're not walking through open timber. You've got to go through areas where you know there's security cover. And you're not going to do that with a climber on your back or hang on with a bunch of sticks. It's just too cumbersome. You just can't do it. It's physically impossible to buck brush and go through swamps and marshes and stuff. So the more mobile you are, the more opportunities you're gonna get because you can get back in the brush and in the cover where the mature mature bucks are actually at and feel comfortable moving during daylight hours. Um, and the more mobile you are, the more opportunities you're gonna get. And another thing that's cool about that is the harnesses. You know, it's dead quiet. It's all made out of fabrics, so there's no noise or anything during the hunt. Yeah. Do you ever a situation where you're heading in to hunt a prepared location but you see something that you realize is like a flashing light that says you need to hunt here right now, and you just set up a brain new spout right then and there and hunt. Is that something you ever do just based on recent intel, Yes, that's something I have done. Um, only one time have I done that successfully, But there's been several occasions. In fact, I just wrote an article about it, which will probably be in deer deer hunting before the end of the year, where I will go to a location that's not then a location just doesn't have the deer sign because I prepped it in postseason. You know, maybe there was a lot of runways in the area or whatever, and those runways are inactive because there's no acorns in that area anymore. Where I've went to a location with my freelance Fannie pack on full of steps and my harness is always in my backpack. One a son at the time, and I'm like, well, I'm not gonna hunt here, so I'm just gonna go freelance. And that's exactly what happened on this I killed by physically hunted a location early in the morning and it and it was going to be an all day sit and it wasn't panning out, so I moved to another I just pulled my stuff as I came down the tree and just freelanced about a quarter mile away to a huge primary scrape area that I found and set up on that and shot that buck in the evening. And in Michigan v I think it was six, I kind of did the same thing. I went to a tree, a preset tree, and the sign was this one. I didn't actually hunt them the sign and it was an evening hunt. The sign was just not there from the previous falls. So I just freelanced I don't know, that was probably three hundred yards maybe four hundred yards away, and I found an oak tree, white oak tree, on the edge of some saplings, uh. And it it didn't have any scrapes underneath it, but it had several runways coming out of the saplings to this white oak in and there was some other runways coming through the timbers that fed to this white oak because it had a lot of acorns on the ground and a lot of droppings. And I and this was way before I hunted out of a harness. This was back when you just climbed up a tree and sat on a branch. And I climbed the tree and I shot at ten point on that particular hunt. So that was a freelance hunt as well. And freelance hunting works really good if you're mobile. And also another big aspect of freelance hunting nowadays is sent You know, you've gotta be sent free because if you're winding around through the woods leaving your human odor, you know you're you're setting up stages where a mature bucks not going to move through that area because you left so much human odor, he's gonna probably turn around and leave. So, you know, being scent free is another big aspect of freelance hunting as well. Yeah, when you when you say freelance hunting, when you when you hunted a spot didn't go on the morning and then you take off for the rest of the day and your freelance hunting. Can you can you just explain them more what you mean by that. Sure, Okay, Like the let's let's say the one time I killed that big buck. I hunted a tree and I was in the tree probably an hour and a half our daylight. It was an all day it was going to be an all day set um by about nine thirty maybe, you know, I just wasn't seeing anything, and I just wasn't getting a good vibe on this location. And I was seeing deer in the distance, you know, because this was in mid November. This was Dangniard in the gun almost gun season, so all the folds was down, and I did see dear cruising through in the distance. So I got down out of the tree, pulled all my steps as I went down. I had a dough decoy out, so I put the decoy back in her her bag, you know, a military duffle bag, and I just laid her under the tree. I wasn't gonna use the decoy. I wasn't gonna tote that around, and I just kind of slowly wandered through the timber and back towards this big river, which is where I was seeing the deer activity and again I found I found a monstrous primary scrape area. There was four huge scrapes and it was in a terrain feature dump, so there there was no food there. There was no crop trees, mass trees or anything like that there. I was in a total temporary There was no crops anywhere around and U but there was some train features dumps. There was a little open weed field and then this one patch of trees came here, and then there was a little saddle over here which kind of was by the river, and it was a train feature dump, which meant there was a lot of dough activity in that spot. And that's why that primary scrape area was there, because there was a lot of dough activity. And one of the scrapes had two monstrous clumps of deer droppings. They were all clumped together, which is typically a sign of a big buck in The pelts were huge, and uh so I prepped it free next to it and shut that buck of Hannah about rattled him in twenty minutes before dark. Mhm. Wow. You mentioned that on this particular hunt, you've been seeing deer activity from your original stand in the direction that you eventually headed uh. And it makes me think. A dilemma I find myself in sometimes is I'll be sitting in a given stand location. Let's say it's the morning, and I see let's let's say a mature buck, a buck that i'd like to target. I see that buck moving somewhere else. I can watch him. He's out of range, though I see him go do something. He passes through. He's cruising past the bedding area or something like that. And maybe I'm now realizing, oh man, he's he's cruising seventy yards away and I thought he was going to cruise by thirty yards or whatever. And I'm always sitting here in these situations like how soon should you make a move? Do you? Do you? If you see a mature buck do something today? Should you be switching to try a hunt in that new spot tomorrow? Or do you need to see that deer? Do it twice to determine it's it's not an anomaly, but it's a pattern. Um, how you know how quickly do you move on an observation like that? Um, it's an It's an interesting scenario because that happened to me in two thousand h one. I think Uh. The first off, you've got to consider where is this deer moving through? Is it through ample or adequate security cover? Because if if there's a deer just walking across a big opening, I would never ever even consider in Michigan moving to that location on the next day's hunt at the same time, because the odds of the deer doing he might have been on hot door or something in the odds of that happening again the next day are pretty skinny because typically mature bucks are not going to cross through vulnerable areas during daylight hours. So I would look at that as an anomaly. But if I've seen a deer and fishing yards away and he's going through some good security cover and he's sticking his nose down to the ground once in a while, absolutely I would move. There is no question about it, because there's an excellent chance that that's his routine, especially if it's during pre ride. And I did that in two thousand one with my son, Chris. Myke son, Chris was actually hunting with me and we wrote the three books together, and I had seen this buck the day before and he was I was probably eighty I found similar to what you're talking about about the eighty yards probably he was cruising along the edge of this uh crop field through some heavy cover, probably twenty yards inside of the edge of the crop field in the timber, and he's kept sticking his nose to the ground. So I knew I had I had to move over there for the next day at the same to be there in that spot on the same time frame, and Chris was home from Germany, so I set up. I set him up in a tree over there, and he ended up getting a shot at that buck. I'm the same exact route almost at the same exact time, and early early afternoon, late October fact, I think I think it was November. It was in November. I take that back early November. And he he didn't make that particular kill, but when he shot, he spoke the deer over by me, and I ended up killing that. That deer came over me on his exit route, circling around back to go back into his bedding area, went right by me and play twelve yards. That worked out, yeah, But I mean it worked out. I mean it was the sact situation you're talking about. Chris moved over to where that buck was the day before, and that buck had that same exact route the next day, So so you're you typically you'd make the move right away. You wouldn't wait and try to see that multiple times to confirm if if he's moving within an area of cover that seems to be you know, a reasonable place to to move again in the future, you're you're gonna go there. Yeah. Yeah, unless unless I saw him go through with a dough. If he went through following a dough, which usually if they're with a hot dough, you know, there's no rhyme, no reason to their traffic, you know, you know, unless they're within a secure betting area, they're just transitioning through someplace and he's with a hot dough, No, I doubt I would make that move. But if he's going through on a search process by himself, yeah, I definitely would make that move. So so you're able to make these kinds of moves pretty quickly because of your specific setup. Now, you definitely can be mobile in things like a climbing tree stand or hang on tree stand with sticks, and a lot of people use that stuff, but I know that you personally, you're using this saddle and it's something that you've mentioned in previous podcasts with us and in your books and talking with other people, but at least the two of us on this show, we've never been able to dive deep into the ins and outs of your setup. And and saddle hunting is becoming a little more popular, more and more people are talking about it's starting to pick up some buzz um much in part probably because you've been talking about it for a long time and people are starting to catch onto it. UM. So I wanted to kind of dive into that. Um, can you talk a little bit about what this is? I mean, at the highest level, what is what is a saddle? Why do you use that? Well, first off, it's more of an arborist style harness. There was a company called the Tree Saddle and that's where the saddle word came out. But it's it's very similar. They're very similar to what a tree climber uses, you know that cuts branches and stuff. UM an arborius harness and it's basically it's made out of fabric. You climb the tree with tree steps or sticks or whatever you do to hunt out of the hang on. I prefer steps because I can put eighteen steps in a small Fannie pack, so they're not cumbersome. To me, cumbersome really is a hindrance because I'm hunting pressured properties where everything revolves around some semblance and security cover and with sticks. That's adding cumbersome and it makes it difficult to access some of these areas. UM. But it's basically it's a harness. You climb the tree, you wrap a leads, you're always tethered to the tree. There is nothing safer than a harness. Nothing they've nobody's ever fell from a harness, and they've been out since the early eighties. UM. So you're always deather to the tree with a safety harness. And then once you get up to where you're going to physically hunt, you hook up your lead strap and then you disattach your safety harness and then you basically hunt. So you're gonna have a ring of steps, whether they're strap ons for public land or screw ins on private around the tree, so you can move around the tree and you can shoot three sixty degrees. You can use the tree as a blocker. You know, when you're hunting at a destination location, let's say at a scrape area or at a white oak or at an apple tree, where there's gonna be multiple deer does and sporting. The bucks come in probably prior to you ever getting an opportunity at a mature buck, and they're gonna be loitering there for a while, you know, ten fifteen, twenty minutes oftentimes, and if you're in a tree stand, and typically with the tree stand, you're gonna be kicked off a little bit to the side of the tree so that you can shoot to the actual destination apple tree or whatever, or primary scrape area. And typically those opportunities happened during the rough phases when the foliage is down. Your odds of getting picked with four or five deer hanging around there for a period of time is really really high because you're kicked off to the side of the tree, so you can shoot directly to your left if you're right handed, whereas with a harness you are typically hunt a little bit higher because they're so safe, but you are tethered on the opposite side of the tree, so you've got the tree trunk blocking your visual and then when the opportunity happens, you know you're just peeking around the corner of the tree. You just swing around, swing around a little bit to the side and take your take your shot. So you've got something that's totally quiet because it's made out of fabric. Uh. It's safer than anything out there because you are one tethered to the tree of the time was during your ascension and descension. Uh. It's very comfortable once you learn how to use it for all day sits uh. Unsurpassed mobility for transitioning through cover. No cumbersome sticks, no cumbersome stand uh. Depending on the model. You know, there's a couple of different models out They can weigh anywhere from one to three pounds, which is extremely light, and they roll up and they fit in your backpack, so you're not having anything cumbersome on your back. You've got three sixty degree shooting mobility, so you can shoot around any tree you hunt from and uh, you know that's a huge factor in itself. You know, a lot of times you with the tree stands and I hunt it out of tree stands a few years back in the late seventies. You know, if you get a deer on the back side of the tree, you just can't shoot through the tree and you miss that opportunity. So with this thing, you can move around the tree and shoot any direction. You can use the tree as the blocker at a destination site. Um, you can hunt any size tree, you know, unlike a climber where you have to have a tree that's a devoid of branches. With this, you can hunt trees with branches. You can hunt leaning trees. Trees can be leaning up to fifteen degrees and you can still comfortably hunt them. Uh doubles the harness doubles as a hands free location proper. You know, a tree preparation harness. Uh. You can have as many trees prepared as you would like, and you only have one harness to hunt out of all of them. So nobody's gonna hunt your tree when you're not there. Nobody's gonna steal your stand because it's in your backpack. Um, it's always with you. Um, it's just for freelance hunting, you know, the mobility factor for freelance hunting. Because it's in your backpack and your steps are in a Fannie pick. You are the only thing that's really cumbersome on your entire body is carrying your bow. The only thing with a frame that could be cumbersome. And I've exclusively hunted out of harness, and and I would say I could safely state that at least the deer bucks, that the fifty book bucks I have at least fifty exactly fifty. Actually at least half of those bucks would not have been killed if I would have been using any type of a conventional stand. They're just not even comparable. So that there's all these I mean, those all sound like very uh compelling benefits, but I'm curious of what are the downsides. And a couple of things that have always stood up to me that always kind of made me apprehensive a little bit would be, for example, it seems like to be able to move into position in different shots, you have to move a lot like those that swinging motion you talked about. Is that something that ever gets you in trouble? Or or number two? In order to be able to swing around the tree and get shots, it seems like you'd have to have a lot of branches down, like you have to cut a lot of If you're in a tree that has a lot of branches, do you need to cut a bunch of branches that you're able to maneuver and then does that end up leaving you you know, hung out to dry with do your being able to see you? Are those really downsides there? Am I just kind of um making that up? No, none of those are downside because none of them really mean anything. First off, if you do if let's say you are in a pine tree, okay, and you do, I feel like you're gonna have shooting options. You know, not not all trees you get in. Do you assume you're gonna have shooting options three and or sixty degrees? But a lot of a lot of trees, you do. You know, when I'm hunting into destination location, I only clear a shooting lane to the actual destination location because I know that's where the deerically coming. I don't have to have five four shooting lanes behind me or to the sides. I just make it to that spot. But a lot of locations you want three sixty degrees shooting diameter. And if and in that particular case, yeah, you may have to private ground, uh, rape the tree a little bit. You gotta cut branches so you can swing around. But your other option is hunting from a tree stand where you're losing under any degrees of shooting around the tree because you're hunting in a tree standing, you can't shoot through the tree and you can't lean to the side. If you're hunting in a bigger you know, anything with a decent diameter, And that's another huge option. I can hunt a tree that's I can have a flat wall if I wanted to, as long as I can climb it. I've I've shot bucks out of trees that there is no way on God's green earth you can put a climber or hang on in. They're just too big a I ameter. And I've also shot shot bucks out of trees that were four ininges in diameter, where they're too small really for hang on. But I had other clumps of trees around me for you know, to give my give me some sort of and seal on the cover. Um what we're what was you said a couple of other things. Three sixties is a huge deal. You said something else, Well, what about the movement? So in order to position yourself for shots, do you do you have to do anything to to account for that movement? It sounds like you would have to move more often in the saddle than in a tree stand. But absolutely not, absolutely not, no way. When you set up in a harness, you set up exactly the same as you would with a tree stand. If you're gonna if you're gonna put up a tree stand, you're gonna put it up. If you're right handed, where your most opportune shots going to be someplace in front of you to D twenty degrees to year left, so that's gonna be your opportune shooting place. That's where you assume your shots are going to be. You do the exact same thing with the harness. You get up in the tree and you hook up your lead. If you're right handed, where you're gonna be hanging facing the tree, and your most opportune shots are going to be to your left. But with a harness, without even moving off the two steps that your feet are perched on, you're going to be able to shoot at least a hundred eighty degrees without moving at all, because you're gonna be able to just lean a little bit and shoot pretty much directly behind the tree, you know, just by leaning out a little bit, and then you can twist at your waist while your feet are still planted right where you were sitting. You can twist at your waist and you can shoot pretty far behind you, well well more than well farther behind you than just straight behind your back. You can shoot it actually a little farther left and straight behind your back. So and then let's say you're in a harness and I see that I'm a right handed guy, I see a deer, I see an opportunity that it's going to take place, and it's gonna be a hundred and twenty degrees off to my right, so it's gonna be b basically on the back side of the tree and off a little bit even more to the right where I have to make a movement. What I will do as I usually have a bow hanger directly to my left, nine degrees to my left, and I always put a bow hanger on the back side of the tree. So if I see something that's coming together, I will lift the bow up, put it on the back side of the tree hook, and then I'll move slowly move around the tree. Usually it's only you know, one step. I moved one step left with my left foot and then put my right foot on the tree that maybe my left foot had been on it. So now my bow still hanging there, and now I'm waiting for that shot opportunity to take place, and then I just pick up the bow and make the shot, very very minimal movement. Interesting, do you have any is shooting a bow in this kind of position challenging at all? I imagine you know we talked so much when it comes to archery form, how important it is to have consistent you know, consistently placed your feet in the same kind of way I have the same kind of foundation, and making sure when you draw back you've got this consistent t formation. Um do you need to I imagine you need to practice a lot with in a sling to get used to it. Is that true or not true? Or that's not true? The tree sling or sling the harness system, You've got a three three points of your body are in contact holding supporting weight. Each one of your fee is on a step and your butts in them. It's basically a hammock style seat. And typically in a normal hunting situation, you know they're all equally. You're carrying equal weight on your button each foot, so and your knees are going to be slightly bent to maybe even straight when you physically do take a shot. So it's gonna be very similar to standing and taking a shot, you're it's it's much simpler, and you have a lot more support for your shooting style shooting from a harness than a tree stand because the tree stand, if you stand up basically all your weights on two feet, or if you sit down, your knees are bent ninety degrees and it's very difficult to move. Let's sake, let's say take a shot, you know, in front of you, because your knees are bent so much, you know, they're kind of almost in your way. With the harness, your knees are just slightly bent, or maybe your legs are even straight, so you've got total support on each foot and in your butt. And I mean it, you are solid as a rock. And if you're a gun hunter, it's even more so because now you've got a tree in front of you. You just and I'm not a gun hunter, by the way, but you just propped the gun against the side of the tree and you've got the tree is basically a rest where you're you know, your forearm of your gun in your hand is against the tree. So you've got to rest as opposed to just you know, holding a gun free hand, you know, and the excitement level. Maybe your barrel's waving a little bit. You just got a lot more solid rust with the tree being in front of you to rest the gun against. And a lot of a lot of guys I know shoot recurves and long goes out of a harness. That's yeah there, And I don't practice out of a harness. I practice off the roof of my house. I've got a platform on the roof of my house which replicates the heights that I hunt from. And you know, the try the shooting triangle that you mentioned is very, very critical, and that's why I practice from from a height similar to what I hunt from. Because if you practice on the ground where everything's straight up and down, your body straight up and down, your arms are perpendicular or parallels to the ground, your your left arms parallel to the ground, and your head is straight upright your bow triangle, which is from your eye to your anchor point to your bow grip. That's that's called your triangle. Now, when you practice like that and you site in like that, as soon as you get up in an elevation and then you be end, you're tipping your head down and then you draw your bow back on a deer. You've totally changed your eye to anchor point angle or distance because you're leaning your head forward, and you will almost always shoot high. If you practice from the ground and then you shoot from a tree, you're gonna almost always shoot high. You know. The only way you can practice from the ground and properly shoot from a tree is when you're in the tree. Hold your left arm parallel to the ground, just like you would just like if you were on the ground, draw your bow back with your head straight up, and then bend at the waist where you're keeping that triangle exactly the same all the time. But if you lean down, tilt your head forward, and then draw your bow back, your eye to anchor is shortening up. It's very minimal, but your your triangle is changing and you're gonna shoot high. Mhm. So's it sounds like my concerns may not be valid. But are there any are there any valid downsides in your eye or if if you're going to say no, is there anybody that a saddle isn't a good fit for, Because it sounds like we're talking through there's a lot of situations where saddle style set up is a good thing. Is there any type of person or type of situation where it's not no. But let me clarify that. You know, it's kind of like stlack. There's been probably a hundred thousand plus people that have bought suntlack and got winded because they have no clue out of you how to use it and properly care for it and store it. And I don't blame those people because I don't think the manufacturer has done a great job of relaying proper care instructions. It's the same deal with a harness. If you buy a harness and you don't use it correctly, you're probably going to be uncomfortable with it, and you're not gonna end up hunting out of it for very long before you sell it to somebody. There is death. There's a site called saddle hunter dot com. It's been around for several years now. There's tons of people on that site and they're willing to help anybody that wants to get into this style hunting. But if you were to take let's say the old trophy line saddle which I heard is going to be coming back out in uh if you were to watch their old DVD on how to hunt from a harness. You would be very uncomfortable and I would be shocked if you hunt it out of it more than one time before you set it off to the side and point back to your tree stand. There's a proper way to use it. There's a proper way to hang from it. There's how much weight you have in your butt, how much weight do you have on your feet. You know there is a drape adjustment for within so within two to three seconds, at any point in time, you can change your drape adjustment to put more weight on your feet or put more weight in your butt. You know you can lower or length in the lead strap. Um, So how you hunt out out of it has everything to do with how comfortable it was, because they used to show hooking the lead strap off at arm's length. And then your body. You never want your body to be beyond parallel to the free You always want your body either leaning a little bit forward into the tree or at worst case scenario, parallel to the tree. Well, when you got that lead trip hanging almost straight down in front of your face, it almost forces your upper body to lean backwards. And if your upper bodies leaning backwards for very long, your back is going to get sore and it's gonna be very uncomfortable. So you know how you hook up the lead and all that stuff. And I'm making this sound a lot more complicated than it is. It's very simple. You just need to get a little bit of feedback from somebody that knows. I get emails on this every day on how to properly hook it up and set it up. But once you once you know how to hook it up, and it's very very simple. No, there is absolutely zero downside. All right, Well, John is making a compelling case for his favorite hunting tool here, but we're gonna have to put time out on this conversation because I want to take a quick break to think our partners at white Tail Properties, So Spencer will take it from here. The sweak with white Tail Properties. We are joined by Neil Hogger, a land specialist out of Wisconsin, and Neil is going to be talking to us about how the shopping process is different in areas that are famous for big deer. Well, Buffalo County is a nationally known county. Obviously, um a lot of the land there that comes on the market and sold really never make it makes it to the market, so that's a major difference. So kind of like Polk in Wisconsin, it's a top ten Pope and Young County excellent hunting, but it just doesn't have the uh notoriety that Buffalo County ass So to find property in Buffalo County, I think the approach needs to be you've got to get as close to the center of influence as you can. Working with an agent like myself with white tail properties. Uh, you know, we're moving and shaking in these counties all time. We're constantly talking to people or people are approaching us. So if you're looking for quality land, I think you've got to get to the center of influence, and that's a guy like me Um and kind of like Polk, which is just as good hunting. You could you could search the typical avenues of of white tail properties real estate websites, land Watch, type property real estate websites, Zillo even and you can find property there um just as easy. But in an area like that, and probably for a buffaloot too, I'd say get to a guy that is selling land. You want to land specialists, not necessarily a residential real estate because they'll have the insights that you need if you'd like to learn more and to see the properties that Neil currently has listed for sale. Is it white tail properties dot com backslash hogger that's h A U G E R. Okay, So if we're speaking of that, then the proper way. Is there anything else you would add as far as the proper way to use or set one of these up? So let's say, okay, you've sold me on it. I'm convinced I'm trying to saddle. I pick up a saddle in the second here, I want I want you to talk a little bit about our different saddle options. But before that, let's say I bought a saddle. Now I'm going to go out and actually try using it. What would you tell me to make sure I don't use it the wrong way and have a bad experience. Probably the number one thing I would say is when you're standing on your ring of steps and you're actually gonna hook up your lead strap your safety straps around the tree, so you're you're you're safely in the tree, but now you want to hook up your lead strap, wrap the rope around the tree at about forehead level, not above forehead level, because if you wrap the lead up at arms reach, that leads going to be right in front of your face, Whereas if you hook it at forehead level, that lead once you actually sit down in the seat and disattach your safety belt, it's gonna be coming down to your waistline at about a forty five degree angle. So then when you go to shoot, you know your arm is gonna go, your elbow is going to go right over top of the lead leads, not even going to be in the way of anything, and you're in a lot more comfortable shooting position or sitting position. Uh. That's because that's another downside of hooking your tether reel high, is with that lead strap coming down in front of your face. If you want to take a shot ninety degrees to your left, if you're right handed, which is typically what you set up for, is the shot right to your left, your elbow hits the lead strap. So by hooking it too high, it's not only uncomfortable, it's also a detriment to your drawing your bow back. So you want to keep that lead strap down a lot lower. And I've been doing this since there isn't anybody in the country that's funded out of a harness more than me period end of discussion, and I've you know, just like when I first bought us a sling, I I was extremely uncomfortable, but I am always looking to move forward in my success rate, and I could see the massive potential of this thing over any ty type of a tree stand. So I worked on it and got it worked on it, so it was it worked for me. You know, I figured out how to make this thing work for me, because what I'm hunting out of now is a hybrid. It's got little pieces of several different companies harnesses that have been out there, and mind is really really small. It's got a phenomenal adjustment ability, which all of them have adjustmentabilities now. But but yeah, I'd say the number one thing would be keep keep your lead strapped down at ie to Ford at level when you when you wrap it around the tree. Speaking of you've got a hybrid option that you're using. But what are the commercially available options if we want to go out and try something like this? What is out there right now? Can you can you talk through maybe some of the options pros and cons, what you might recommend anything like that. Both options out there right now are really really good Um, the my personal preference is one that just came out now jeff Or Graham, sorry, Greg Godfrey, who's one of the main people at saddle hunter dot com. He's been hunting out of a harness for quite a long time and he's came out with this new and it's called the Mantis M A and T I S and the only place you can buy any harnesses online. You can't buy him in stores right now. So his is available at www dot p E t h r D so tethered t E t h r D Nation and a T A and a t i o N dot com. So www dot t E t h r D nation dot com. And his only ways about a pound. I think it's fifteen ounces. Um. So it's it's a minimalist which is, once you pointed out of a harness for very long, you want as minimalist as you can get. And he also has his his site has options of using a small platform to put pet on as opposed to stops. You know, if you're hunting public land, you know it's a strap on a platform, very very small loan you Lone Wolf used to make one fore harness hunting and what's called the Assassin, and this one is similar but it's smaller. Um. And then the other harnessed company out there is uh It's New Tribe is the company, and they've been in the recreational arborous style harness business for years and years and years. They're based out west where recreational tree climbing is actually a hobby. Uh So the one that they have on their site is called the Kestral, like a hot k E S t R e L, and that one can be bought at new Tribe dot com. Now my preference is the Mantis because they're very similar in style. The Kestral and the Mantis are extremely similar. They have the same safety options, they have the same lead strap options. Um The only difference is the Kestral is a solid fabric, so it's it's it's a heavier fabric. When I say heavier, they're both heavy enough to be safe. Um bit's a heavier solid fabric, whereas the Mantis has the heavy outside nylon strap. But then the actual seat is made out of mesh, so it rolls up pretty close to the size of a softball. When it's all rolled up, it's very small and ways about a pound. I think the Kestral is about three pounds. And the only difference is that the Kestral is a solid seat and the other one is a is a mesh seat. And also the Mantis, the one that's made out of mesh, the seat is a little bit shallower, which I prefer I just wanted cradling my butt. The the Kestral is a little bit deeper seat, so it it it's up about where your belt would be as the top, and then the bottom is down maybe a tad bit into your thigh. Is there comfort? Mantis just covers your butt cheek. Is there comfort difference there? Then? You know, with that bigger seat, is that going to be more comfortable for some people or maybe for bigger body types or anything like that. Um, well, they make them in size, so you know that that wouldn't be an issue as far as comfort. No, I don't think it's any more comfortable. Okay, what about accessories and stuff? I know when you and I had talked in the past about getting a saddle set up for me to you someday, there were a whole bunch of different options that you could include. You kind of talked about you use this minimalist option but there's a whole bunch of other kind of bells and whistles that some of these saddles have. Can you speak to any of those things that you might recommend her that are out there that people could consider well when you when you buy these harnesses. Now back in the day, you know the old tree saddle, it came with everything. Uh, these harnesses because saddle Hunter, the saddle hunter website, there's so many people with so many different types of lead straps and adjustment drape you know, prusick not for address adjustment drapes or wrote me in for an adjustment drape and different types of bridge straps um both of these harnesses. Basically you can put whatever type you want on them, and I think that's a very very unique because you can kind of custom fit it to whatever you are doing. Or you have the option of awarding the entire kit which comes with you know, a factory leads trap, a factory safety belt, um, you know like that where you get what they they you know, whatever they're they've put in this kit. So you have I have a lot of different options. Now my preference is, uh, I like using the Ropeman adjustment for my adjustment drapes because it's so quick and simple. Uh. The other option would be a Pruf signot. You know, that's how you adjust your drape. The proofs ignots. You know, when you want to make a quick adjustment drape, A lot of times a PRUSI knot it binds. I don't know if everybody knows what a Pruf signot is, but a prufs I knot will Actually they actually binds on the rope, so you have to loosen it up sometimes to make it slide to adjust your drape, whereas a ropeman it's it's a they're made for the arborist industry and they're very quick adjustment drape just I mean literally two seconds to adjust your grape how you're sitting. And when I say two seconds, I'm not talking about twenty seconds that I'm saying is too I'm talking about two seconds, one two. Something just popped in my head as you're talking through this and making adjustments and stuff, is what if you have to adjust what you're wearing? You know, I imagine like you head out on a hunt. It's warm in the afternoon, but the sun sets and get temperatures drop ten to fifteen degrees and you want to add another layer. Um, does the harness make it a struggle at all to add clothing? Or maybe a rainstorm comes then you want to pull on your rain gear. Do you have to get out of the tree to do that? No? I changed my clothes almost every single time island, and I do it in the tree. I always, I never because I want my entries to be as cool as possible. I'm going in as lightweight as feasibly possible. So it f it's cold out, I've got all my layer garments in my backpack. So once I get up on stea and I take off my silt like jacket, throw it over a branch or whatever, let my body cool down, and then I your whole upper body is exposed. There's nothing on your upper body whatsoever. So basically just take off your jacket, put on your layers, and put your jacket back on, and you're hunting. You know it's it's nothing to change your glows. You can't. You can't fall out of this thing. I mean, your upper body is totally exposed. You're you're basically like sitting in a hammocks seat with your feet on steps. So yeah, now you can't change your lower your lower garments, your lower garments, whatever you wear in typically you're tied to that. Okay, could you slip brain pants over top of the harness around your waist or is it to with the with the straps coming out of it keep that from being possible? Could you? You're gonna have to run that by me again. Sorry, So I'm trying to envision this. So if I had like a pair of rain pants that normally I'd slip over and you could, may you put that over top of a harness or something? Would that be able to slide over this? Or no? Because of the straps coming on the front. I'm guessing no, Yeah, you couldn't. You couldn't put rain pants over top of the harness because you got the straps coming out of the front. But let me let me back up a little bit. If you wanted to put on a pair of rain pants while you're on stand, yeah you could. Basically what you'd have to do is get your pants out, get the rain pants out of your backpack, you know, while you've got all your weight pretty much in your butt, lift up your left leg, put put the pant on that one, then lift up your right while your left back on another step, put it on that one, and you you could lift your weight up, you know, then you pretty much stand up where you don't have any weight in your button. You could slide your pants up underneath the harness, you know, and then buckle them up and put them back on. I'm just saying it's it's just not a typical thing to change any of your bottom layers. But yeah, you could definitely put on pants, that wouldn't be an issue. But to take pants off and put on long johns and stuff like that, yeah, that's you could do it. It's just not simple. It's extremely simple to change your upper body garments. But typically weather related, not rain related, but weather related. Your lower body usually has doesn't get cold like your upper body. You know. If if if anything is gonna get cold, it's going to be your upper body and your extremities. Yeah. Yeah, so you mentioned how you would put your weight on certain steps if you're trying to get your rain pants on or something like that. That that brings me to my next question, which was about your your feet situation when you're in these harnesses, both how you climb into it and then also how you position your feet or what you use to rest your feet on when you're actually up in there. I know there's a lot of different options people use. You have briefly mentioned what it is you use, but could you walk through the different options for climbing and for standing when you're up there, and then the pros and cons of those different options. Okay, well, i'm public land. You obviously have to use up on stuff for sending the tree. So you know, if if you wanted and you had a bunch of sticks, you could use strap on sticks, even though they're cumbersome. Or what I tend to do is I use strap on steps, which are made by Cranford c R A N F O R d UM. Now for private land, I use screw ins or oftentimes if the farmer lefts me, which I do have done this in the past. You know, I'll drill holes with a quarterless drill and put three eighths or half in spikes in the holes, and you know, use those for steps because they're cheaper than buying screwing steps. But otherwise, yeah, I screw in steps in my preference. Again as Cranford Cranford handed down makes the best steps in the marketplace. There's not even anybody that competes with them in my opinion. UM, So I use screwing usually folding steps to go up the tree and then up at the top. For my ring, I will either use you know, bay sick rod steps, half inch rod steps, or even three eights inch rod steps, you know, the conventional steps or the they're called Cranford Deluxe steps is my ring, and I'll usually I'll usually space my steps around the ring at the tree, you know, up the top where my feet are going to be on. I'll usually space the steps about eight inches apart eight to ten inches max apart, because you don't when you are making those movements if you do need to move around the tree for a shot opportunity, you don't want to make any big, big step, rigid movements. You want them to be very subtle and very simple, so you can just easily slide around the tree, which typically don't. Typically on most times, maybe eighty ninety percent hunch you're gonna make your kill from where you're physically standing, where you prepped your tree in the first place, you know, from the position you're sitting in. UM. But there are occasions one you do have to move around the tree, so you want to make that as simple and easy as possible, and I you screw screwing steps. At the top, there's there's a strap on ring of steps bowls something or other, I can't quite remember the name that bowls steps maybe, And it's basically a bunch of steps that are on a ratchet strap. So you can slide the steps wherever you want them and put them in place, and then you tighten your ratchet down and then you get your steps. You know, that's your strap on steps. Cranford is also coming out with some of those, and they should be available by by October. Cranford's are going to be metal steps on a ratchet strap. These bowl steps are plastic steps, So I think the metal ones are going to be better when they are available. But right now, the only thing available for a ring of steps that are strap on or those bowl steps. Now, what about those platform options? Is that is that more comfortable or is that? Why would why would someone go that route rather than the ring of steps like you're talking about? I have no clue. I own. I had a guy give me a lone Wolf Assassin stand, you know, which was made again for for harness hunting, and I've never ever used it. I just see no purpose because now I'm getting right back into carrying something cumbersome with me. You know, I'm carrying a framed piece of metal, which I don't like doing because where I hunt, that's just not conducive to getting to where I want to go. Um. But there are guys on saddle hunter dot com that have used this assassin and now this uh Tethered Nation company they've got one of those platforms coming out, and I don't know, maybe because you can move your feet around more. You know, they don't go all the way around the tree. They just maybe go, you know, a little over ninety degrees around the tree, so you've got something flat to put your feet on. UM. And I think a lot of people, I shouldn't say a lot. I think there's some people that I haven't quite figured out how to use their adjustment drape where you can adjust to where you don't have much pressure on your feet. You know, I'll adjust my drape probably two to three times during a hunt, but again it only takes three or four seconds. So let's say I'm I'm in more of an upright standing position where my knees aren't bent that much, and most of my weights on my feet. If my legs get a little tired, you know, I'll just lift my weight up and let a little bit of my leads trap out. And now I'm sitting where my knees are bent almost ninety degrees and all my weights on my butt. I have hardly any weight on my feet, and vice versa. I feel like I've got too much weight in my seat for too long a period of time. I lift up and pull up on my adjustment drape and now I'm sitting more upright, where my knees aren't bent much and no more my weights on my feet. Um, but you gotta you have to have the steps go around the tree in certain situations where you see it when you prep the tree, You're you're gonna need it, um, you know, so that you can move around the tree. So even even with that platform, that's gonna be only where you're sitting, So you're still going to have to put steps beyond that on either side. If you think you're going to have a shot option, a shot opportunity beyond where you're physically sitting while you're at rest. If that made sense. Yeah, yeah, it does. I imagine that seeing these things. I think when you're describing the different adjustment straps and stuff, that's that's a little bit hard to picture in my head right now. But I but I think I get what you're saying. So this is one of those things I imagine though, people, you know, getting your hands on this and actually seeing it will make a big difference to right. Oh yeah there. I'm making it sound a lot more difficult than it is because it's it's really very very simple. I can climb on a pre prepared tree, I can climb my tree, be hooked up, my leads trap be hooked up in I think thirty seconds would be a long time. It's that it's that quick, and I've been doing a little long time. But I mean you you if you go out and saddle hunter dot com to researching this stuff before you even buy it, you know, that's that's what I would suggest that it It will definitely up your kill opportunities. And once you once a person learns how to do it by just talking to somebody that's actually done it for a couple of years, it's very simple. You know. It's just like again, it's just like it's like, once you've got the process down of being taking proper care of your stuff and keeping it in there containers, you know, it's I can park my vehicle and get out of my vehicle and be sent free, probably quicker than anybody else I would go hunting with if we parked at the same time, be out of my vehicle ready to go before they are. And because I've got the process down and hunting out of harness is the same way, and it's it's really simple. I would always suggest for anybody to get one, you know, put some steps safeteen inches up off the ground in a tree in your yard around a telephone pole, and just practice from it a little bit. And you know, once you get the movement down and you get the you know, hide to you know, where you hook your lead strap and all that down, then just practice however you practice otherwise, and then just you know, climb up your tree and hunt. Yeah, do you have Is there anything that you do or things that folks should be thinking about as far as getting set up in the tree, you know, more efficiently or quietly, Because I imagine this is one of those deals. As we're talking, if you're freelance hunting or being a mobile hunter, when you're going in and getting set up right then and there to hunt, and maybe you're tight to a bedding area or something where there's gonna be deer within earshot. You know, is there anything you do make sure that you're not spooking deer that you're able to pull this off. It's a little bit more um involved than just climbing up a ladder and sitting down or something like that. So any advice on that front. Well, when I'm freelance hunning with my harness, uh, my concern about spooking deers with my physical presence and noise getting to the tree. Um, you know, as far as prepping the tree, you know, screwing steps don't make any noise. Uh, hooking up my harness does not make any noise. You know, obviously when the foliage is down. If I'm in a bedding areas, you know, as I get up the tree twenty you know, with good folds being down, if there's something better within forty fifty yards, they may visually see me. But other than that, I'm never worried about the noise. It's not like a tree stand where you gotta pull up a clanky old piece of metal up a tree, and you're gonna make noise. I don't care who you are, You're gonna make noise with a tree stand either pulling it up the tree or hooking it up, you're gonna make noise because you're you're altering bark and stuff. If you're in a rough bark tree and and a lot of them have chains and whatever. So you're or with a climber, God use, there's no light and get up the tree with a climber without making noise. That's physically impossible with the harness. And I'm making it. I'm making it sound like this wonderful utopian hunting system, which it is once you learn how to do it. Um, But it's there is no noise. You know, you don't make noise. Screwing in a tree step you don't make noise. Wrapping a rope around a tree and and hooking into your waist that doesn't make noise. So there is no noise other than me physically going up the tree or me physically walking to the location. So okay, so let's rewind a little bit in this process. Though, let's actually go back down we're on the ground, we're freelancing. We found a location that we think looks good. Can you walk us through what you're thinking about when choosing the actual tree. Um, I know you've talked about how the harness gives you the ability to hunt a much wider diversity of trees. But is there anything in particular that you are looking for that's going to help you say, Okay, yes, this is a tree that will work, you know, for you know, to take a step back for context. For as a tree stand hunter, when I'm looking for where i want a hunt, I'm looking for a tree stand that's within range of the feature or trail or whatever thing I think is gonna pull deer within range of me. But then I'm also looking for a tree that I can get up into with my strap on sticks. I'm also looking for a tree that has enough cover at the height I want to be at, so so I'll be hidden up there. I'm also looking for something that's gonna give me um adequate shooting lanes, you know, with minimal trimming, you know. So I'm looking for a bunch of different things when picking that right tree. What is it you're looking for in your situation. Well, I'm looking for the exact same things you just mentioned. But when you're hunting out of a harness, you open up pretty much every tree in the area. I don't know how many times I've talked to hunters that find a destination location and there is no adequate tree or their climber or their hang on because hang on typically have chose you know, you're gonna tree because of the strap a specific diameter, So they have to actually set up away from the destination site on the best routes to it, and that negates some of the other outs coming to the destination site, and it totally negates the destination site altogether because you're the best signed to it. So you're missing out on some opportunities with the harness. You know, I can hunt a four inch diameter tree, I can undertreat it's three foot diameter. I can hunhertreat it's leaning. There's just it opens up a lot more tree options for me to prep at or closer to the destination site, so I can take advantage of all the sign and all the runways feeding this destination site as opposed to two or three that feed it. You know, old back here where I have a suitable tree for a conventional stand. So but yeah, I'm all I'm looking for of the same thing. I'm looking for the tree that's going to be in the best spot to give me the best concealment cover up the tree. And that's another thing about a harness. You typically will end up hunting igher because you're so safe and comfortable once you get used to it. So you know you're gonna set up possibly thirty ft when the foliage is down during the rod phases, because you don't want dear to pick you with their peripheral vision like you would in a tree stand. Um, most guys that are freelancing with tree stands, you know, they're typically carrying sticks in a tree in a tree stands, so they've got a lot of stuff on their backs, and they're not only limited to the tree, but they're making a lot of noise when they're setting the trees up. Um. So the harness just opens up a just a lot more opportunities and in pretty much every aspect of hunting. The only time I could see where and I can't even say that, I was gonna say Michigan, as you as you well know, Mark probably eight percent of the hunters in Michigan hunover bait, which is gonna be interesting with a c w D anything going on. Um, But so many hunters that hunt over bait, you know, they they set up tree stands because they never ever have to move, you know, the deer coming to a three foot destination spot. The only downside is usually they're they're in a position in the tree where you know, in Michigan, you hunt that spot a couple of times, and now every every mature dough and even subordinate boxing sometimes even the fauns after a couple of months, they're they're looking at that tree before they even walk into the bait pile. I don't bait that. I've heard that a million times. You know, they get picked so easy. So so with the harness, uh, you know, I was gonna say, you know, sitting in a tree stand. A lot of people like that because they think it's more comfortable and you're just sitting in one location, shooting at one destination spot. But with the harness, you could actually be on the back side of the tree. In fact, that happened to me once. And this is a really great story and it's about a do so it's not a mature book. I was. I had a friend hunting publicly and and he had to hang on and he was hunting over bait and this is up by evert and he had this big mature dough that was coming through this swampy area. And before she would actually exit the swamp and come to his daypile, which was maybe ten or fifteen yards out into a little opening by this big tree he was hunting in. She she would come to the edge and she would look at the bait, and she'd look up in the tree and she would see him in his tree stand, and then she'd start blowing and snorting, and you know, pretty much his funk was over for the evening. So he called me up one evening and he's talking. We're just talking, and he mentioned then, I'm like, we want me to go kill her? He said, how are you gonna kill her? I said, do you want me to go kill her or not? Sure? I'd love the kill her because she's ruining all my aunts. So I said, okay, you know, and he when showed me where it was in the middle of the day and I went back and I climbed up into his tree, standing and I put another I don't know, four or five steps up on the back side of the tree, and then hooked up in my harness. WHI, I'm on the back side of the tree trunk. And exactly what he said happened. This big dog came out, stood on the edge. She had two ponds behind her, stood on the edge of that. She probably stood there for five minutes, and that's a long long time, and she would look to the left and look to the right. She looked up in the tree, she looked at the bait, and she did that for a long time. Finally she felt comfortable because she couldn't see anything and she couldn't smell anything. And she walked in and started feeding. And first when she was feeding on the bait, she was facing the tree. She was looking right at the tree. Well, then the fonds came out, and after you know, two or three minutes, she became comfortable and she moved into a position where I had a broadside shot and her attention was focused elsewhere. And I just swung around at the side of the the tree and shot her. And that was the end of that. Um So I mean that. And that guy was a good hunter. He was a very good hunter he had. He had a lot of cover up there where his tree stand was, but he had to be in a position because it was a big damn her tree. He had to be kicked a little off to the side and she could pick him interesting, you know his tree stand. Yeah, So so that scenario makes me think of another question. Um, you know, related to making the shot from the saddle or moving. Is there anything that we haven't covered yet as far as you know, advice on how to actually handle when you're up in the tree, how to move, when to move, how to get set up for certain shot situations. Um, Because again it is unique compared to sitting down in a tree stands, standing up and making a shot. Anything that we haven't touched on yet as far as how to correctly maneuver up there, No, it would be. It would be identical to maneuvering if you were going to hang on or physically sitting in a climber. You see stuff coming, you assume your opportunity is going to be here when all this stuff culminates together, and you move accordingly prior to when that opportunity is going to happen. Only differences with a harness you're gonna have three sixty degree shot opportunities, So there's gonna be times when you need to move to prepare for a specific shot opportunity, Whereas if you were hunting out of a stand, you wouldn't have that opportunity. You have to hope he comes to the side of the some place around the tree where you could actually shoot, because you can't shoot on the back side of a tree, if a tree of any diameter. So but it would be the same as a tree stand, you know, the same as a tree stand. If if you're in a tree stand and you're expecting your shot to be somewhat forward or to your left, and a deer you see your shot opportunity coming and it's going to be from the right side of the tree stand, you have to stand. You have to physically stand up before that opportunity gets there because you see it coming and you you are in the ready position for that shot. So you're basically standing up and turn around on an eighty degrees so you can have that shot opportunity. Now it's to your left, but when you were sitting it was to your right, so it's a it's exact same scenario. You know, and obviously a novice Funner is gonna have a little bit more difficult time. More as a season, Donnor is going to know what to do and when to do it. You know something I glossed over and I meant to ask you about. I want to take us back down to the bottom of the tree. Now again, um, back to this freelance situation, we're walking around. You talked about how you picked a tree and how it's similar to the things I was looking for. Um, But the next step for me is always Okay, now, what amount of prep do I need to do? Because and again this is a situation where I haven't already pre prep a tree in the spring or summer, but now I'm actually out there on the day I want to hunt, and I'm thinking, Okay, how much do I need to trim to make this huntable? And how much you know, what lanes do I need to cut to make sure I have a shot. And there's always this careful balancing act between opening up enough so I can get a shot, but then also not making any more disturbance than I have to. Also don't want to open up any more and eliminate any more cover than I have to, Um, can you talk us through how much of that you do in this type of scenario, Um, what your thought processes on that. Yeah, it totally depends on where I'm hunting. If I'm if I'm hunting out west, uh, and I'm gonna pretend I don't have a good sign control regiment, okay, and I'm concerned about the wind and deer winded me. I'm gonna pretend that's the case, which it's not. If I'm hunting out west, I'm going to once I find a tree it's within shooting distance of all this sneat cool sign, whether it be scrapes or of a rub line or a scrape line, or that's there's a white oak over there with the acorns on it. Um, I'm gonna probably if I need, I'm gonna probably go to the destination shots spots where I think I might get a shot and look at the tree where I think I'm gonna be sitting once I prepare the tree, and I'm gonna maybe clear something because out there I'm not concerned so much about as as much about older. I'm gonna try and still be as free as possible, but I'm not as concerned about things as I am in Michigan. In Michigan, I'm gonna walk to the tree, prep the tree. I'm not going to cut anything unless it's a branch going up the tree. Then I'm gonna physically be hunting in because a lot of times I'll cut little branches off because I don't want to coming down after dark. I think I'm stepping on a step when in the actuality it's a dead branch or something I don't want to, you know, then this branch breaks um. So in Michigan, I won't go out if I'm freelancing and clear runways, because I personally would because of my sec control. But I also in Michigan, I don't want to even have the order from cuttings. People that just don't realize what a difference it is hunting pressured animals with heavy pressure versus lightly hunted or managed areas. When you go in and you even cut shooting lanes and you're gonna hunt that evening in a state like Michigan, and you're after three and a half year old and older bucks or pennsylvani you're West Virginia or upstate New York. You know, just the odor from what trees you cut could potentially make a mature buck not come to that destination site because that odor is not supposed to be there, whereas in lightly pressured states and manager areas, they're not going to pay that much attention to it if they're going to do what they do anyway. Um, So, depending on where I'm at, it's going to depend on how I prepare the site location as far as shooting lanes. I guess if that's does that kind of answer your question? Yeah, yeah, no, and it makes it makes perfect sense, and I'd say it's probably in line with what I've seen to so so, so back to this umbrella topic of being a mobile hunter, we talked through a lot of things related to what you do with the saddle. We talked a little bit about some of the ideas that you could, you know, use generically no matter what it is, whatever kind of hunting setup you have. But is there any major angle on this topic that we haven't touched on, John, that you think we should as far as how to be a mobile hunter or how to use this kind of idea of philosophy best, or even anything else on the saddle side of things that we haven't covered. Well, no, not really. I guess the only thing would be I certainly wouldn't want your viewers to your listeners to think that this is strictly something for mobile freelance hunting. You know, this is something I've used exclusively. I haven't hunted out of a tree stand in years. Um. So this is something I've used exclusively in all my hunting locations, and I've I'm probably in Michigan because I I lose property all the time. You know, if I kill a big buck on somebody's property to gave me permission and they've got nephews and stuff, well as soon as they know you killed the big buck, they want to hunt there, and then you're the one that's out and they're in. So I've hunted probably in my fifty plush years of Michigan over hundred different private, small private parcels, and I think I've wanted nineteen different public land parcels, one of which I took a state state record off. Um. But I don't want to pigeonhole this harnessed thing into just mobile freelance hunting. This is something that you should that I've used on all of my tree set up since so this is you know, just inline general purpose hunting on my hunting stand basically. Yeah, and it just happens to Yeah, and it just happens to work phenomenally well for any situation, whether it be you know, all my prepared locations or a freelance or a mobile. You know, it just works well for for everything because because it's it's small, it's lightweight, it doesn't make noise. Um. You know, you put a bunch of steps in a fanti pack you and so you can take off freelancing. It's it's not cumbersome. All that stuff matters. Yeah, I'm planning a hunt this coming October up into the Boundary Waters Wilderness area of Minnesota where you actually have to canoe in on the canoe in for a week into the back country and try to find some deer. And this set up with a saddle just seems like the the absolute best way to do that because taking in a stand and sticks or multiple stands and sticks, along with everything else we need to live out there for a week, our bows, food, etcetera, etcetera like that would be really difficult to get all that in a canoe and portaging from lake to lake. This this saddle thing just seemed like the absolute perfect tool for that kind of hunt. So I'm excited to r F c T. You're absolutely correct that is the hardest thing is going to be perfect for that situation. Yeah. Um, I'm excited too. And we started to give it a try. And I appreciate John. You you're walking us through all these different ideas and how you're using this tool and and some of the different tactics that you're using that. I think that you know a lot of this could be helpful with people, even if they don't end up using the saddle. I think some of your your higher level philosophies here could be applied to whatever kind of hunting tool you want to use. So so it's it's good stuff. Is there is there anything John, before we wrap this up that you could point folks towards, um if they want to learn more from you. I know you've got all sorts of books saying, you've got some online things going on workshops. Can you just kind of give us the rundown of how we can learn more from you? Uh? Sure? Um? I've written three books co authored him with my son Chris Bonding, Pressured White Tails, Precision Bon Hunting and Bonding White Tails ebarret Way and there. I'm sure they're still available at Amazon, and they're also available on my website at d E E R hyphen j o h n dot net. And I've also published three instructional DVDs there through two hours long. Each one is on postseason scouting in location prep, the second ones on in preseason scouting in location prep. In the third ones in season hunting Techniques and Tactics. Um So, we've got the DVDs and the books are all on my website and I'm also doing these. Last year I started doing these uh oh god ball hunting deals where people come in for two days into central Michigan. First days in field, second day is at a large sporting goods store in their sinar room where we do seminars. I do seminar and do a lot of Q and A with the attendees, limit them to tend per procession on sund control pretty much anything to do with hunting. And on day one in the field, we're looking at all my locations on this three seven acre piece of piece of property. We're going by fourteen locations, explaining entry routes, exit routes to each location morning spots, evening spots, midday spots, early season spots, uh, you know, pre rut spots, rut phase locations. Basically explaining the rye the reason Typically when I get out my harness at the first site, people are like, where's your tree stand? Because I'm say, I'm gonna get up in this tree and I've got my harness in a little tiny Fannie pack. I mean it's it's literally discisibles offball. When I pull that out and get up in the tree, they like freak out, literally freak out at how small and and this thing is and how quiet it is and how fast I get up in the tree and prep it. But anyway, these are called white Tail Workshops. They're also on my website and then I'm also doing just started these in May. I taped YouTube topic videos. They're short videos three or five minutes each for Deer and Deer Hunting, the Deer and Deer Hunting magazine, and they started airing in May and there's a new one being released every Tuesday on the Deer and Deer Hunting website through the end of November. So these for the title of this series is public and pressured Land Deer Hunter with John Eberhardt. And again these were done in conjunction with Deer and Deer Hunting magazine. UM, I will send you the link mark and people can kind of click on these links and basically, once you watch one video, UM, it'll there'll be a little pop up where you can watch the previous one and so on and so on, and there's gonna be a new one released every Tuesday through the end of November. UM. And you know my criteria for Deer and Deer Hunting asking me to do that was again, I've got thirty one bucks in the Michigan record book in nineteen from out of states. I've got fifty bucks in the record book off from public and you know, free permission properties. Uh. So everything I've done, ever done in my life has been pressured. I've never owned, released, or paid a dime to hunt any place in my life. And so that's why they came to me to do this. So that's about it, yea. That it's it's all helpful stuff. I've seen the videos, I've read the books, I've watched the DVDs. UM, it's it's all been very helpful to me. So I appreciate everything you've done, John. And actually, the last summer um I was speaking at a back Country Hunters and Anglers event and you and a bunch of the attendees for that weekend's White Tail Workshop were able to meet us up there, and I got to talk to some of the people that have been with you at the workshop, and it seemed like they had learned a lot from your event as well. So it seemed like that's a that's a great educational opportunity for folks. So John, I appreciate you. Know what, I gotta say something. I want to tell you thank you too, because you and your site has helped so many hunters, and you know, I think your goal is like mine. I just want to try and educate hunters to be the best that they can be and be the most successful they can be. And and your site is hands down the best one out there as far as podcast and I want to thank you for bringing that to the hunting world. I appreciate you saying that, John. That means a lot coming from someone who who has helped me so much. So let's make sure to to do this again. John. It's always a good time and I'm really excited to give the saddles to try this year and maybe next year around this time we can talk about my first season trying one and um, I'm sure I'll make some mistakes and maybe you can help me figure it out. After that, I'm gonna try and help you figure it out before you have any opportunity to make any mistakes. That's an even better idea. All right, John when holds it? Thank you, and that's gonna be a rap. Folks, appreciate you tuning into this one. Hopefully you've found it interesting. My usual spiel here, I will stick to just asking you to rate or review the podcast if you haven't done that yet, I'd also encourage you to subscribe to the podcast. And while you're subscribing things, i'd say go to the wire to Hunt YouTube channel, check out the videos and posting there. I just did a whole series analyze in my two thousand seventeen Hunt for the Buck I've been calling holy Field. It's been a three year process. I'm heading into year four, so I just broke that whole thing down in three videos. Check those out. Um, hopefully I'll set us up for some good stories and some interesting things here in two thousand eighteen. So with all that said, I will just say one more thing, which is that I appreciate you. I appreciate you taking the time to listen. I appreciate you supporting Wired to Hunt. And until next time, thank you and stay Wired to Hunt.