00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon. This episode number two oh six, and I'm excited because today we are joined by Joel Turner to discuss the mental side of archery and have proven science based methodology for controlling your archery shop process and dealing with target panic. All right, folks, welcome to another episode of the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sitki Gear. And today in the show, we are tackling the topic of target panic and control process shooting when it comes to your archery process. I guess, and I don't know if you might remember if you were listening to the podcast last year. Last summer, I started talking about how I was going to start changing how I shot my boat, gonna kind of implement a brand new system and process for how I go through that because I was realizing that I do have some of these tendencies, like maybe something like punching the trigger, some of these different target panic things, um that lead to you know, not always having as perfect of a shot as I would like. So many of the philosophies and ideas that I started implementing into my own new process came from this guy named Joel Turner, and that is our guest today. Joel is a police officer and firearms instructor, and he's the founder of shot i q, which is a website that hosts a whole bunch of different online courses all about this topic of tackling target panic, tackling different ways of getting control of your shot, just becoming a better archer and bow hunter, and a lot of this can be applied as well to firearms um as well. So this is an interview that I already recorded, so I know what happens. It's very, very, very interesting. Joel has talked to a lot of people over the last couple of years. He's kind of made the podcasting rounds. So if you've heard some of these past podcasts, he's been on The Gritty Billman Show, he's been on Joe Rogan's podcast, a handful of others. So maybe you've already heard this whole deal, And if so, maybe you can, you know, skip part of this if you're not interested in kind of getting my perspective on it. But if you're not familiar with this idea and this kind of perspective on on dealing with how you shoot. I highly, highly highly recommend hearing this. It's kind of change completely how I approach shooting my bow, and I just really really wanted to make sure that our audience heard this. So Dan, I'm excited for you to listen to this one because I know you've dealt with some of these same things that I did, and I think this will help you a lot. So, um, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you homework and tell you listen to this after we publish it, and um and otherwise that's that's the game plan for chi Zeppe today's episode. But I did want to get you on here, Dan, at least for the intro, because we haven't got to catch up in a few weeks now. Um So, how the hell are you? How the kids? How's the family? How's life? Oh? Dude, life is life. It's crazy like everybody else's. Man, I got we're potty training the oldest boy. The youngest is now starting to teeth. Uh So, nights are pretty cool. You know, no sleep weathered. I feel weathered all the time. I fall, I fall asleep when I sit down. Like, if that intro went any longer today's podcast, I probably would have fallen asleep. That might be applying to everyone listening not to see that might have been more my issue than anyone's. But no, but man, other than that's good, I tell you what. Um, this this March has been awesome for the pure fact that I've went shed hunting four times. That's like two or three more times than last year. So I was able to get out and do a little bit more shed hunting this march. One of those times was with you and Ben and the crew at the shed Rally. And then I went last weekend as well this past weekend as well, back up on my main property and found a couple of anglers. So, UM, I I ended up with sixteen. How does that? How does that rank with your past good years? UM? I think you know, to be honest with you, I think I want to say, like in the twenties has been my best year ever? Uh, somewhere in the twenties, but that one had one day when I found nine, I wish that I could have went out and continued walking other places you know, uh that were similar to that. I just feel like this year would have been a great year to find more sheds, But because you know, I'm a responsible father and husband, Uh, I can't go I can't go out shed hunting every day, self proclaimed responsible father. Sixteen sheds is not bad though, man, not at all. No, and every one of them, Every every step that I took looking for those sixteen was an absolute blast, just because I was outside. Yeah, man, that's what's all about. So in last week's episode, Ben, myself, Peter, and Ross got to talk about the shed rally day, but you couldn't join us for that, so we just got to talk about you behind your back. Do you want to know? Do you want to offer your own perspective on anything on the day, anything you want to add? No, man, it was it was fun, and uh, you know, I just have to respond because I listened to that podcast this morning just to make sure you know. And I don't care what anybody says. My wife and I were walking that buffer strip and you guys pulled right in front of us and we were going to find all those sheds. Yeah, you really would have. I do feel I do feel bad, but I I feel I'm vindicated because I had no control over where we were going. I was writing, I had no hands and steering wheels, and I didn't find any sheds anyways there, so but Peter Peter scooped up two good ones and then there was like three other small ones in that one little section. Can you imagine if we hadn't gone there and you walked that whole strip and then the whole next strip that you guys went to, we would have found like nine sheds. I know it was. It would have been, uh, let's see one to three and then yeah, somewhere around nine sheds at nine or ten. Yeah, and in what two buffer three buffer strips that were right next to each other basically, I mean like a five acre area, right, But no, it was It was fun because what that did is that forced me and my wife to bump over to the next next one and she walked to the smaller one where she found a really good one, and then I found two more there, so, you know, and and at the end of the day, it's you know, finding sheds is fun, but it's fun to you know, share good times. I just kind of wish I was at the hotel to record the podcast so I could defend myself when you guys started talking on me. Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Then you're actually lucky that you couldn't stick around for that because Ben had the flu. We didn't know it, but Ben had the flu. So that night he had been around his least partner Ryan the next so, so Sunday Ben text me and says, hey, I got the flu. Just f y I. Monday night, his least partner Ryan texted me and said, hey, just f y I. I got the flu now too. And then middle of the night Monday night, I got it and I went down for the count all the way through like Thursday. So right, so it's kind of good thing you avoided the hotel room of death. I'm pretty much immune to everything this year. I've gotten the flu twice. My kids have each got in a handful of times. Like you know, other kids just got over it. So I'm sure it was one of the strains that I already had. Well, there you go, one of the perks of being a dad with three kids. So you've got sixteen sheds, man, I'm at fourteen sheds of the year. Um, but two of those were given to me. One was given me by landowner. One was given to me because it was a match that type situation. So technically I've only found twelve, but that's tied for my best shed hunting year. Um. And if you count just how many antlers I have home with me now, I'm having my best antler year ever. And knock on wood, fingers crossed. I'm heading off to North Dakota this Saturday for a week of which a significant portion of that will be hiking and shed hunting and scouting, which could lead to a bunch more sheds. So I have potential to have my very best shed hunting year if this goes the way I'm hoping it will awesome. What do you got went up there? You're gonna scout for a hunt? Yes, sort of. Um, So I'm on. I get this project that I've talked about for a while now that I'm working on. So I'm heading to the bad lands of North Dakota around where Theodore Roosevelt's ranches were. So he went out to the bad lands in North Dakota in the late eighteen hundreds and spend some really um, some really influential years in his life there ranching and hunting and exploring that area, So I'm gonna go spend some time kind of walking his footsteps to do some thinking and seeing some of the same places he did. And at the same time, I'm also going to use as an excuse to scout for potential future hunt out in that area and then of course hopefully find some antlers. So I know that further further strongly considering doing a hunt out there, and he's going to tag along with me for the trip to UM so one of the two of us, maybe we'll hunt there this fall. I'm not sure, but if it, if it goes away, I think it's gonna go based on what I think I know about the area. There's a lot of sections along these rivers where a lot of white tails are crammed in a small space that that could lead to a lot of antlers being out there. So I don't know. I don't know what to expect. I've never I've never been in this area before UM, but I've heard good things, so I'm excited. If if nothing else, it's just gonna be awesome to get out there, be camping for a week in the fresh air, big huge vistas. I mean, I have hung out in Theodore Roosevelt National Park, um, which is sort of near where we're gonna be, and that is just gorgeous, gorgeous country, So I know it's gonna be great scenery. So what state is it? North or South Dakota? North Dakota. Alright, North Dakota since two thousand and eleven has seen a thirty decrease in hunters, with a total number of a license sold of sixty thousand. I got my q d M a report right in front of me. So so with that said, that's good for nonresident hunters who want to go there to hunt, because it's I mean, it's not good overall, but it's good for guys looking to go to out of state hunts because you're you're running into less opposition. That is a that's a silver lining to the declining trends and hunting numbers. That's true. Um. Yeah, And I think North Dakota is one of those states. I think both of the Dakotas are one of those two of those states that probably fly under the white tail hunting radar for a lot of people. Um, I keep on hearing so many good things about the white tails out there. I think that they can be impacted by tough winners. There have been some e h D outbreaks that have knocked out localized population is pretty bad. But from what I gather right now, they're doing pretty good. Um. And it's very it's very similar to the stuff I've done in Montana the past couple of years. So I know, I just love that kind of thing. So yeah, I mean, I'm pumped. I'm excited to get out there and just you know, I need I need some adventure my life. I've been stuck in the house for a long time now, I'm ready to get out and hike around. We're gonna do some backpacking, some shed hunting, some just hiking around, camping, all that kind of good stuff. So it's gonna be a good trip. I'm gonna try to maybe record a podcast out there with Josh Um. I'm gonna try if we have good cell service. I'm gonna post maybe daily or every other day YouTube videos updating how the trip is going, what we're doing, what we're finding. Um, So following check out the YouTube channel for all that stuff. And you drive in or flying. We're driving okay, so you I don't know, are you going through the up No, the our route will take us up through southern Wisconsin, southern Minnesota, and then into North Dakota. I was gonna say, if you want to kidnap me, you know it'd be all right. Can you get away for nine days? Uh? If you kidnap me, will be all right, and you'll you'll tell your wife. I had no control over the matter. No, they hit me with a hammer over the head and I can't. I can't come back. I help you exactly, very sincere cry for help right there, right Well, I'll send pictures nine days. Is the wife coming with you? No, no, she's not, but she's give me the green light. Wow. Yeah, she's cheating on you. We do joke about how she has a rental boyfriend that probably comes in when I leave. Yeah. Man, she's very understanding, maybe to understanding, but yeah, I am a little concerned about that. You know, it's gonna be hard to be away from the boy for a while. And uh, I know that she'll have a lot in her hands. But um, test the waters. We'll see how it goes. And he's been knocked on wood. Like I've said in the past, he's been a really great baby so far, super chill. He's only waking up once a night right now. Um, he's holding his head up pretty good. He's starting to smile and like he really like looks at you and sees you now, So that's getting that's getting really cool. So what's the squatting? Uh? Cool? Three fifty at this point. But he's got in your room for improvement exactly. He's already doing better than dead. That's all I could ask for. But yeah, man, that's my story. Um, anything else that you wanna hit on here before we toss it over to the archery talk? No, man, I'm I'm looking forward to listening to this one because at just like you, you know, I definitely need to practice on my archery, my my archery part of bow hunting. Yeah, And what I really like about Joel's whole philosophy on this is that it's really all focused on the mental side of things. It's all about your mental process and understanding a big part of what he talks about is understanding the science behind this and why our mind and body reacts in certain ways, and then accounting for that and dealing with that using some simple methodology. That that Man, this is the most interesting archery stuff I've found Yet in all my years trying to become a better archer and reading on stuff and listening to seminars and blah blah blah, this stuff has resonated with me the most and it's helped me the most so far. So I think, I think you'll like it. Damn. So I'm ready. Let's reconvene in a a week and until next time, we'll take a quick break for our Sita Gear story of the Day. For this week's sick of story, we're joined by Drake Pollard, who tells us about a special tree on his northern Missouri property. UM. I think for me, UM, the first time I get to north central Missouri for hunting, uh, this year and in many years before. UM, I go to my family farm and I visit a stand or a tree that my grandfather hunted when he was growing up. And and my family and friends, we've we've used this location many of times, but it's predominantly myself that hunts up there now and UM, every time I visit the farm, I go to that stand, I go and sit there. My grandfather was in avid hunter. UM. He taught us, you know, the ethical way of doing the right and wrong and and how things need to be handled. Um as an outdoorsman and UM as a kid he passed away, and UM for me to go to that tree, um to pay my respects figuratively speaking, UM, I just feel a sense of connection when he's still there. UM. I think it's important for hunters to to maybe get back to that a little bit in misday and age and maybe figure out, you know, exactly why we do what we do. UM. Whenever we have an opportunity to visit a special place, such like my farm in northern Missouri. So UM, I know as a white tail hunter, that always gets me excited every year to to visit that section of the farm. UM and just pay my tribute, my respects to him. On Drake's early season haunts, he wears sick As Equinox system. If you'd like to create a sick of story of your own, or to learn more about sit because technical hunting apparel, visit Sitka gear dot com. All right with me on the line now is Joel Turner. Welcome to the schoed Joel, thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm glad to have you here because I think it was last spring or summer. Um, I first ran across you out there on the innerwebs on another podcast, and it came Your message came to me at an important time because I was dealing with some challenges from an archery perspective myself, and when I heard what you had to say, it resonated and I started making some changes and implementing a lot of what you had to say into my archery regiment last spring, summer and into the fall. So you've become a part of my life over the last year, Joel, regardless of whether you know it or not. Because of that, though, I want to make sure that our audience here got a chance to learn this stuff too, because I've kind of I've tried to talk about some of these things myself, but I know I'm not able to communicate as effectively and um and as much detail as as, of course you can. So I wanted to today dive in deep on your whole philosophy when it comes to how to you know, how to be come a better archer, how to handle some of the challenges that we have as archers. But I guess before I ramble any further, Joel, can you can you give us just the quick Joel Turner one oh one, who are you? What are you doing? How did you end up here? Well, I you know, I started shooting a bow when I was seven years old, and it was not pretty. You know, I had no instruction, just like most people. You know, most people just start out shooting a bow because they love it and they love to see arrows fly. And but I wasn't good at it. And you know, by the time I was eight or nine years old, I'm locked off target, target panic, not even knowing what that was. You know, I was back in the early eighties, and uh so, you know, life progressed and I didn't get any better at shooting. But I loved shooting. I mean I would shoot my bow until my fingers bled. But I never got any better. And it wasn't until I started taking on jobs like with the USDA Wildlife Services and then as a law enforcement officer that my shooting had to improve or you know, it meant your job or possibly your life or whatever. So it was finding a determination to actually get better and to figure out how to get better. And that's what led me to all the research that I've done and and uh, you know, it's it's not necessarily a philosophy. It's not my opinion. This is how your mind really works under stress and in shooting. So it's it's really cool, and it's difficult for people to deny where they are in their shooting. You know, you know whether you're locked off target or not. You know, whether you're punching the trigger or if you're shooting a stick both, if you're not getting a full draw, you know that. But and people are searching for the information on how to how to get out of this stuff. And we have definitely cracked the code, but it takes some serious determination and people read their turning points. So that's hopefully what we'll be talking about today. Yeah, and that's something I've that I found really fascinating about how you approach this topic, is that focus on the science and on the mental perspective of things. Because there's tons of content out there. There's all sorts of articles and videos and podcasts about you know, choosing the right archery equipment or how to get proper archery form, or you know, how to get the right weight for your arrow, you know, relative to your broad head and this thing or that thing, But there's not a whole lot about what's actually going on in between your ears, and the way I see it, I think there's a whole lot going on there that translates to success or failure downrange or in the field. So why is it that you approach shooting from this mental perspective? Well, it was born out of necessity, you know, because I wasn't. I I'm completely enthralled with hunting and archery and shooting and it's my life right so, but I for some reason have an ability to learn from my mistakes very acutely. So, uh, you know, just wanting that control is what led me to to do the research and to do the experiments. And I've been in some very unique training arenas where you know, I was the lead fireman. Once I gained control of this stuff, I became the lead firems instructor for Washington State at the Basic Law Enforcement Academy, and I had control of my own shot, but I had to be able to relay that information to another police officer. And it basically came down to the reality that there are some precision, precision situations where if you don't concentrate on the pressing of that trigger on your shot activation movement, you will not be successful. And the science of that is is, you know, the core problem in shooting. That's what led me to the core problem that most people will have missed. We've been dancing around this issue for a long time. But the core problem and shooting, no matter what weapons system you're shooting, is that your mind will not allow you to cause your body impact as a surprise. But is that not what we've always chased the surprise break, the surprise shot, right, But if you don't know how to get it, you're you're just dancing around it. So understanding the core problem and then being able to apply that and basically learn how to consciously defy human nature. The reason that all archers and all shooters are dealing with these issues is because of that core problem. I mean, it's your subconscious is not looking to be accurate. It is looking to be efficient, and it's much more efficient and calming to be held off of the target and then jump your pin to the target and uch the trigger at the same time. It becomes this linked motor program that just it's very, very efficient, and under an adrenaline load, you become extremely efficient, ultra efficient if you will and you shoot this shot that came from La La land that you've never shot before, right, So, and everybody is experiencing these things. Those that have got themselves out of target panic are those people that have reached a determination point, a turning point, if you will, to where they said themselves on one shot, i am not going to do this again. They may have missed numerous critters, or they may they may have been kind of this ice cold person from the start, But there's nobody that's born with this skill. You you may be born with a skill to make decisions, and that's the true skill, is your decision making, funneling your determination. But there are a lot of folks out there that are just trying to do good, right, and that's not a plan for how to do good, you know. So that led me to all the research and all of the experimentation, and being the lead firms instructor, I was able to experiment on lots of recruits to actually formulate this science. And I took certain classes and um advanced concepts and motor learning and performance and figured out, you know, the control systems that are in your mind and how that relates to shooting. So it's just fascinating stuff and I get to watch the transformation in every one of my clinics. It's so cool to see. Can you drill in a little bit more into the detail on how this stuff manifests itself. You give one example of you know, how the mind finds to be more efficient to hold off and then jump to the target. That being one way, but I know there's a handful of other ways that this can kind of come out this core problem with shooting. Can you can you share some more examples, are some more detail around what this looks like. You know, what's what's the problem or the actual physical experience that we might be dealing with that we can now wrap our head around and say, okay, yes, this is that problem. Right. So it's natural for you to to to link motor programs right between your trigger and being on target, because that's what makes sense to your mind. When you first shot your bow, right or whoever is out there right, when you first shot your bow, you drew the bow back. Let's say you're shooting a compound sites and release. You went down to the shop, you bought a new bow. They showed you how to use it, and the instruction that you got was to draw back put your pin on the target and then squeeze the trigger. Right. Well, the first time you shot your bow, no problem. You drew back and you put your pin on target and squeeze the trigger, and you're very cognitive about it, because that's how the mind learns. It's very cognitive at the start any movement do. You learn very cognitive at this art and then you practice, and you practice with the goal of becoming automatic. That's how we practice, or how we figure out how to swing a baseball bat, how to throw a baseball, how to do pretty much any movement. Our goal is automaticity. Right, So the first time you did it, very cognitive, which pin on, squeeze the trigger. And then you practice and you get more and more efficient. So now you put your pin on, then you squeeze trigger a little faster and you still get the same result. So your mind's like, yeah, perfect, that this is exactly the way we want to go. And then you get to the point where you squeeze the trigger the instant your pin gets on there and then you are locked off the target and your mind jumps your pin to the target and presses the trigger all at the same time. It's more efficient, but it's not more accurate. And you know the core problem shooting your mind will not allow you to cause your body impact as a surprise rise. So it starts to link these things. Right, You being on target equals and explosion. That's why it won't let you sit there. That's why it won't let your pins sit on the target because being on the target has been linked to this explosion. So it jumps you there and you yank the trigger with pre ignition movements, right, all of these movements happen just prior to the ignition of the bow or you yanking the trigger. And that's how it goes with all these things. You know, people are locked off target, below the target, above the target, to the sides of the target or there, you know, if they're on it, like let's say they switched to a hinge release or something like that, right, a hinge or attention activated. I mean, if you really look at it, the entire archery industry is built around target panic. If it wasn't, why would we need other releases. And when you look at these releases, everybody usually starts with an indet finger and then when they start, when they become efficient with that, where they start punching the trigger. They go to a thumb trigger and that works while they're cognitive with that for about ten minutes, right, and then they instantly start the learning process. And when they get more efficient at that and they become automatic at that, they start punching that trigger. Well, then somebody comes along and tells them that they need a hinge release. Well, the difference in the hinge release as you progress down the line of releases, and that that line is index finger, thumb trigger, hinge and then tension activated. As you run down that line, you are relying more and more on the release to make decisions for you. Right, very easy to punch a trigger on index finger, a little bit harder because your thumb is a little bit more stupid, right in your thumb trigger. But then you get to a hinge and there's this kind of a breakthrough for a lot of people, I mean most pro shoot a hinge release because the movement is a heck of a lot easier to evaluate because it's a longer movement. Right, So they are able to now put their concentration into their shot activation movement. And somebody told them along the line that you can't that don't worry about your aim, just watch it, right, and so, but the release starts making decisions for you, and sometimes you may start punching that hinge and it's very common, right, if you allow it, if you allow the learning process to happen, you'll start punching a hinge as well. And then you go to attention activator release where you push the safety in drawback safety off and then you pull and it's set to a specific draw weight holding weight. Right, Well, that one if you don't make a decision to pull or expand, it's not going to go off. So it basically makes the decision for you. So you know, that's where people are at in these things that you see it locked off target, punch and triggers, and it's this big progression. If you're shooting a stick bow. You see these people when they first start with stick bows, very simple, They draw back to their anchor point, they aim, and then they release a string. Well, that becomes much much more efficient very quickly. So then you start to see them let the string go to three in front of their face. It's not more accurate, but it is certainly more efficient, right, And then you see the same locked off target issues with stick bows as well, and people, I mean, that's that's where I was. Gosh, when I was fifteen, sixteen years old, I had had to hold five six ft over a target and then I would just simply dump my bow into the target and release the string all the same time. It was a nightmare. I mean, everybody around the globe is dealing with the same issue, and and a lot of people think they're alone in it. Yeah, they say, man, you're never gonna believe what I have to do when in my shot, you know, my pins not even on the target and it just kind of jumps up there. Yeah, you're right along with everybody else, myself included. And I feel like a lot of people too. Well I might be um taking my own situation and putting this on other people maybe, but I guess for me in particular, I always thought I didn't have target panic, because when I hear target panic, I would think or the way I was defining that within my own head was just insane buck fever, Like you're shaking so bad you can't hold the pen at all, like and you're just you're just sending that air off into the Netherlands without even having any form of control. I thought, oh no, I'm not like that. I'm pretty in control. Um. But I did have a tendency to rush shots. And when I look back on it, you know, I had some I had some kills something that ended up okay, and that I had some misses, or I had a wound once where I almost hardly could remember the moment. It was like, especially the early kills. The first couple of year I ever killed with the boat was like you blacked out. You hardly knew what happened. And then as I as I've gotten older and had more success, now I I know what's going on. But I'll I can look back at that moment and I can see as soon as that pin hit the vital the vitals, I mean, it was, it was off it. I didn't have any time to think about it. I had it was. There was no control over the moment in any former functional way. It was just as soon as that pin was in that spot, without even thinking about that trigger had been punched and the arrow was away and I was dealing with the consequences good or bad after that. But but I still I still didn't call that target panic. I was still thinking to myself I'm okay, Um, I don't. I don't slap the trigger or anything. And it wasn't until this past summer. Um, I had a friend come out and I had gotten a new boat, and I couldn't get the new boat. I could not shoot consistently with a new boat no matter what I did. And it ended up being some equipment issues. Actually, there had been some timing that was off, the rest had been messed up, so there's a few different things that were actually leading to some inconsistencies. But because I was having all of those issues with the equipment, it was messing with my head even more because I was trying to say, what am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong? So I kept on, will change this thing, change this thing? So is my grip wrong and my anchoring the wrong place and my you know? So it just messed me up mentally even more than ever before. So that's why I had this friend come over and just look at what I was doing. He identified the equipment issues, but then he also identified this mental issue and what he had me do. And this is when I finally had to come to terms of the fact that yes, Mark, you have a problem. Um. It was he told me to draw back and just pull the pin on the bull's eye and don't well I think he told me, just drawback, put your pin on there, and and what tell me what you want to do. And as soon as I went on there, my my finger like jumped towards the trickerly. As soon as that pin hit the target, I wanted to punch that sugar. I wanted to hit it. And I've had other times where I've drawn back and I had like almost a body convulsion, like where my body wanted to start that process, but I stopped it. Um And I'm like, jeez, what was that? And then you realize, well, yeah, that was your body trying to start this automatic shop process that you had no control over. And so when my friend said, yeah, that that's target. Panic man, that's that's not some one off thing, then it was all of a sudden, this, ah, how okay, there's something bigger here. And then it gave me kind of permission to dive into this whole um other world of of of learning out there, as far as learning how to deal with this stuff, which led me to you. Um So, I feel like a big first step for a lot of people is just like coming to terms with Okay, yes, this thing I've been doing that is target panic might so I think you've covered most different examples of that. Is there anything else that we need to make sure we understand just to help us define whether or not we have this issue or if we touched on everything there. Well, it's not a disease you are born with. If you want to call it target panic, you're born with it. It is your mind making you. I mean, it is completely against human nature to cause and ignore an explosion. And your bow going off is an explosion. You know. It may not be very loud, but it is a sudden, uh, you know, explosion of muscle contraction and expansion and all these things happening right Your mind wants to brace you for that impact, even though it's a small amount of impact. It wants to brace you for it. And if you allow it to do that, if you allow your subconscious to tell itself when to release the string, you will always be the victim of your own mind. You know, it's about being in the process of the shot instead of being in the results of the shot. But people are out there and if they don't come to terms with this, they are practicing their own failure with every shot that they shoot as just a slightly uncontrolled shot, right, Like asking yourself the question, while I was in the trigger press, could I have stopped it anywhere within it? Right? And most people cannot answer that in the affirmative. Most people are going nope. Once I sent that motor program, that bad boy was going, right. I'm talking about being in the process and knowing how to get into the process, And I don't want people to be out there practicing their own failure. There's no reason for it. Right. But that's essentially what you're doing with when you just go to the range and you practice your shooting. If you don't know a lot of these things, you are absolutely practicing your own buck fever, right, because your system that you have built of automatic movements is going to become exponentially more efficient under an adrenaline load. So your controlled shot does not live in your midbrain, which is where you go to under an adrenaline load. You know. That's why people black out and they don't understand what even happened, you know, So that's because their heart rate got high enough to where they went into mid brain, which has only has fight or flight training an experience. So if your experience is this uncontrolled shot every time and you're training, you have trained this uncontrolled shot, there's nothing in there that's going to help you. You're not just going to automatically find yourself working through a trigger perfectly. You know, it's never just going to automatically happen. You have to how to get yourself into that zone. So you know, if people are wondering whether they have target panic or not, if you want to call it that, if you're a human being, yes, you're dealing with good anticipation. It just depends on how you deal with it, how much how much pre ignition movement you have in your shot, because people say, well, I'm I'm pretty good, right, and they may they may kill quitters. But here's a question for you, and for every successful, very successful bow hunter oute there there is a pattern of success that I have found with very successful shooters, be it in the sniper world or in bow hunting, or just in hunting in general with a rifle, and that is what do you say to yourself during your shot, not before the shot, not after the shot, but during your shot. And what you will find is that every very successful bow hunter says something within their shot, and there is science to that, and we'll explain that in a little bit. But that's a question for all your listeners out there. You know, if you, if you are that very successful person, what is it that you say to yourself during your shot? And if you're not that successful person, is that what you're missing? If you're trying to do it blank minded, you are allowing the subconscious to run its own program. And it's not there for accuracy. It's there to keep you alive. It's there for efficiency. So something to think about there. Yeah, and and in a second, I want to better understand why those words are important. But before we get to that, I want to rewind just a tiny bit here. And let's say let's say that Joe John Doe is listening to this and he here's what we've been talking about and says, Okay, yes, I can identify with this issue. I have some shot anticipation anticipation issues or some target panic issues. Okay, yeah, this is me. I want to fix it. What's what's step number one? Where where do you begin? Joel? With someone like that who is having this kind of issue. Take us from the very beginning, and I'd like to walk through each one of these steps from the mental side of things, and then also like what you might physically be doing or what or this all goes into, um where do we start? I guess step number one is to find determination. And that may sound weird, right, but everybody is looking for a cure for target panic, and I have that cure. However, you have to be determined enough to say to yourself and to truly believe on this next shot, I will shoot this shot perfectly or I will not shoot it at all. That is a huge step. That is a realization that I had to come to in firearms and in archery, because until I made that that determination depth, it was all for not right. People. People ask me all the time, you know I've got target panic. You're my last hope. All this stuff is your system gonna work for me? And I tell them, no, it's not gonna work for you. You have to work for it. My system is simply going to teach you how to do the work right. But it all starts with determination to make that original decision, you know, gaining the knowledge of control process shooting, and then going okay, I know exactly how to do this. I'm gonna shoot this next shot perfectly, or I'm not going to shoot it at all. Right, I mean, even if you don't take any instruction, making that original decision will set you in the process and allow you to come to the realization that there's nobody with a gun to your head making you shoot this shot. Right. So if you say to yourself, like, let's say you're locked off target, right, you're locked low, Man, I get that thing that pins six inches from where I want it, and then I just can't quite get it there, and then it just kind of goes there and a punch a trigger and I kind of black out, right, I mean it's this, it's this mini blackout. So you know, when you get to full draw and you haven't taken any instruction, but you've made this original decision, I will shoot this shot perfectly or I will not shoot it at all, and you find yourself locked off the target six inches, the first thing you gotta do is not shoot that shot. Follow your decision, because you being locked off target is not part of your process. Right, So that pins six inches off the target, and you know exactly what's going to happen because You've practiced that thousands of times. That first time of drawing back and that pin gets locked off there and you don't shoot it. You let it down, right, you buck up a little bit more determination, you draw back, and then you fight that pin and you get it on that target without working that trigger, right, and then you make another decision, right, because as you were explaining marking your shot, you kept shooting these shots. And what I call the critical second, right, it's the one second in time after you believe the aim is complete. That's when most people shoot their shot. And if you shoot your shot in that critical second, it will be controlled by what's called an open loop control system, meaning a movement that's too fast for you to stop, too fast for you to gain feedback within it, meaning your trigger press is not going to be a press, it's gonna be a yank, right, So, and then you have to deal with the consequences. So simply being able to draw back and put your pin on the target, and once that pin is on the target, saying something to yourself like here I go, that brings you into the present, brings you into the process and allows you to get your finger on the trigger. And I mean it's gonna take your entire might to work through that trigger slow enough that you could stop it anywhere within it, right, And it's much more easily done with back tension than by moving your finger, which is another you know, it's another issue. But just making decisions is the first step. And you've I think you've called you mentioned I think you you mentioned this a second ago. Open versus closed loop control systems? Can you can you dive into that a little bit more, like what's the difference between the two and why it's important to, like you just said, to have these decisions throughout. An open loop control system is the control system that is the goal of your mind, meaning you get to a point of automatic movement. In an open loop control system, very simply put, the executive, which is the brain, sends the motor program to the effect or. The effector is what receives the motor program. Right. So, like let's say you're talking about a an index finger trigger. Okay, So on an index finger trigger, you draw back and you put your finger on the trigger. The executive, the brain sends that motor program to move your finger. Right, your finger does that, but because it's open loop, it's too fast. It's got no reason to gain feedback in it, right, There's no reason to do that. So it then does it at a rate that you can't stop. Well, when you punch the trigger, I mean it's such a minute movement, but you can watch the bow hands of most people when they punch their trigger, their bow hand also moves right. Otherwise, if it was a surprise, their bow would fly out of their hand. Right. So that is a pre ignition movement that is linked to your open loop motor program. I mean, in an open loop movement, you can have all kinds of different movements linked to it, like blinking your eyes, collapsing. All kinds of bad things can be linked to an open loop trigger press right. So open loop is the goal of your subconscious. It wants to be automatic because that's more that's most efficient. Right. Closed loop is completely different. Closed loop is a conscious movement. That first time that you moved your finger through that trigger, you were cognitive about it, and somebody told you to squeeze the trigger, press the trigger. So you're working through that thing super slow at a rate that you could stop it or gain feedback within the movement. Right. So when you first started, you had to decide to do that. Okay, my instructor told me, I've got to work through this trigger super slow. So that's what I'm doing. That's you making a decision to do that, right, But then you practiced and that whole decision making process went away and you became very efficient. So what I'm talking about is being able to make a decision to come back to the cognitive stage of learning. That's why it's so unnatural for you to do this. It does not follow the human model of learning. So what I'm telling people to do is to for their shot activation movement, whatever that is. Like, let's just say it's a trigger movement on an index finger trigger your closed loop control system. You make a decision and you decide to choose a slower motor program. The brain, the executive sends that lower motor program to the effect or same system as an open loop, but now you're moving slow enough that it gets sent back through what's called the comparator, the comparitors kind of the feedback station. And now you're moving your finger, you're increasing pressure on that trigger slow enough that the comparator can say too fast mark or too slow mark, or it's not moving Mark right, So you're able to evaluate your movement within the movement. And when you see people shooting back tension, that you see them shooting a hinge correctly or an index finger trigger correctly. Their concentration is on nothing other than the movement, the shot activation movement. It's not on oh my god, Mark Kenyans watching me shoot this error right, It's not on anything else. You can only be you know, people say the conscious mind can only do one thing at a time. Well, it can only be in one closed loop at a time, is what they really mean. So your entire world becomes this shot activation movement, and it's slow enough that you can gain feedback within it, and therefore you just stay in that movement until it breaks. You don't know when it's going to break, you don't care when it breaks. That's how you get a surprise break in your shot. But it requires decisions for you to even get there. You'll never just find yourself automatically going back to a cognitive stage of learning. And that's why it's so that's why shooting is so different than any other sport, because in any other sport, you know, automatic movements are the goal. Shooting a free throw. For example, the definition of a choke. When people choke on the game winning shot, it's because they've shot open loop the whole time, like they're supposed to, but on the game winning shot, they think about it a little bit more and they try their mind tries to go closed loop. Right, Okay, I'm gonna win the game with this free throw. I got to make sure that I tilt my wrist this way when I shoot the ball. And on those movements that are supposed to be open loop, if you try to go close loop, you kill the totality of the movement and therefore they miss because it's Oh, I thought about it too much, right, But that's not shooting. Shooting is completely different shooting and shooting the closed loop control system is the one that gives you the surprise break. That is the one that allows you to be successful in a precision environment. That's a really interesting comparison there, the two different because you you would think that choking in some kind of high pressure situation would be the same core issue. Um, but it's interesting to the two different sides of this. I guess this dichotomy here. There there are movements that are supposed to be open loop, Like most movements in your life are supposed to be open loop, right, But there's one movement in your life that can never be allowed to be open loop, and that is a shot activation movement, be that with a pistol, a rifle, a bow, a stick bow, whatever it is, because you are causing an explosion with that movement. Think about this way. If a picture was pitching a baseball and they knew that if that ball was going to explode six inches in front of their hand only if they pitched it perfectly, They'd never be able to pitch it perfectly because that movement of them throwing the ball, there are movement would now become an anticipated movement and it would have pre ignition movements linked to it. Right. So it's that's why shooting is so much different than anything else. Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like so much of the advice out there um when it comes to shooting, especially archery, UM is there's a lot of talk about trying to make things automatic and that they shoot so much that you get this muscle memory and that you don't even need to think about it. It's all get that muscle memories. You don't want to think about it at the moment, and so that as a kid growing up, that's what I learned. But you know, when you start to look at things the way you're you're talking about them, it makes a lot of sense why that leads to significant issues? Right? I mean, why is it that people shoot for fifty years and never get any better? They never get more accurate, they only get more efficient, right, So it's uh, that's why shooting, like I said before, is so much different than anything else. Yeah. So so okay, so we need to first make that determination that we're going to get control of the shot. We're not going to go through with a bad shot anymore. We're going to have a controlled, closed loop system. And you said though, to achieve that, we have to be in control of the decisions along the way. And as I understand it, the way to take control of those decisions is to attach words to them so that you can then talk your way through it. Is that right? And then if so, can you talk us through is there is there is there a right number of steps we should be talking through? Is there a better way to create a mantra like this? Are there any specifics when it comes to how to talk our way through it. That can help us. So talking does two completely different While they're they're somewhat the same, but it helps you in two different ways. Because in the cognitive stage of learning, learning anything, first time you learned it, you talked yourself through it. There was a thing called self talk, right, So you talked your way through it. And what the talking did you talk? You spoke words right. Words are the route to concentration. Words are nothing more than attentional cues. When you read a word, your mind goes to the definition of that word, no matter what it is. Right. So it's very easy for an instructor to gain control of a student's mind simply by talking to them. But are they giving you that skill to be able to talk yourself through it. That's a question of your instructor, right. So, uh, talking leads to attention. So if I need to concentrate on this movement that's going to cause an explosion, I am darn sure going to have to talk myself through it, right, So I have people say specific things, meaning I have them say the word that defines the movement, if you will. So, if it's if it's an expansion, right, or if it's a pulling motion. Right, just a simple phrase, keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling. It's said in a revolving rhythm. Right. So this rhythm is basically your words are the verbal representation of your closed loop. It's revolving, right, it's a loop. So and some people say a specific word like go as they're moving through the trigger. Your words tell what muscle group to move and also the way the speed of see your words that gives them the rate of movement. Right. So words play a huge part in your movement. But the verbalization of your decision is the start of the entire process. Right, Because you can have this mantra and all this stuff. But remember that your subconscious doesn't want you to do any of that. None of that is stored in your memory, right You just you don't just remember to say your mantra. You have to decide to say it every single shot. Your shot actual improvement can never be allowed to become automatic, But your decision to shoot it perfectly or not at all must become automatic. It must become a fundamental truth in your life. Meaning, I don't care who's watching me shoot. I shoot in front of hundreds of people A lot I don't care who they are. I will shoot a controlled arrow. Why wouldn't I? Right, I have the blueprint for exactly how to do it. So you know, once you gain control of your shot, and you gain the blueprint for your controlled shot, you know now you're using shooting to practice your concentration. It's the great greatest form of concentration practice that is known to mankind, that is shooting. So go ahead. I was just gonna ask, is there certain number of steps within excuse me, um, within the archery? If we're talking a compound, a compound bull, let's say, is there a certain number of steps within that process that we should try to be appending a word to? So? So for me right now, the way I've been putting this into practice is I have a phrase that I say as I'm drawing back. I have a phrase that I say while I'm aiming, and then I have a phrase that's like my activation phrase. So I say, here we go. And as soon as I'm saying here we go, that starts my movement into activating that shot. Is that is three the right number? Or is there? It doesn't matter? Um? Any thoughts on that? Yeah, Yeah, lots of thoughts on that, so you know you're what you're talking about. You're talking about the verbalization of your decisions. Right. So I have two jobs in my shot, just two jobs, but there are some micro jobs within those big jobs. Right. Job number one is to draw back and aim, get it done, and watch it to keep it. Get it done. I mean, people creep up on these targets, and that's just you doing pre ignition movements. Your mind is readying you for this impact. That can't be the case. Your aim must mean nothing to you. It's just a job that you get done. Right. So job number one drawback and aim, get it done, and then simply watch it to keep it. Right. When I say that watch it to keep it, I mean you're watching the picture. You don't have to focus on either the pin or the target. You are watching the entire picture. And when you do that, you're using a system called visual appropriate reception, which is the same visual feedback system that you use when you drive. Right, when you're driving down the road, you've got a yellow line and a white line, and you get visual feedback that your vehicle's veering slightly to the left, and you auto correct with a movement of the steering wheel, and you move that steering wheel until you get visual feedback that now you're in the center of the lane, and then you stop that movement. That's an automatic movement. You don't have to think about it. When you first drove, first time you got behind the wheel, you had to think about it. But that's not the case anymore. You do automatic movements, automatic corrections. So when I say that drawback and aim, get it done, watch it to keep it. That's exactly what I mean. You have no control over your aim other than through your eyes. So watch the picture. It will constantly return to center. Okay, that's job number one. Job number two is to put the concentration into the movement that gets you through your trigger right, whatever movement that is, whatever type of release you're shooting, or if you're shooting with your fingers or using them a counter receptive trigger or whatever. So those are the two jobs. But the jobs require decisions, especially in extreme stress. So there's two jobs, but there's three decisions. There are three decisions that must be made in every precision shot. Now, this is for me, and this was my big fail point. This is where I always failed growing up, and that was not making the decisions or making the decisions at the wrong time. So now my three decisions are this, when I believe the shot is imminent, meaning oh my god, this is happening, right, you start to put tension on that string. That is when you do the original decision, I will shoot this shot perfectly or I will not shoot it at all. That does two things for you. It gives you options like nobody's got a gun to my head making me shoot this shot. And it starts you into the process of the shot instead of the results of the shot. Because if that big bucks coming down the lane and you're thinking, oh my god, that is a hundred and six point right, that has nothing to do with you shooting a perfect arrow. Right. So the original decision I will shoot this shot perfectly or I will not shoot it at all. That is a decision that must become the fundamental truth in your life. Right. The next decision is made at half draw, as you are pulling the bow back. That is when I say to myself, I'm gonna do this. Right. You can say whatever you want to say, but that is the point at where you have to bring yourself into the present because your mind wants to go and oh my god, it's a hundred and six point I'm going to be a hero. Right, that's where it wants to go. It wants the results. But you've got to keep yourself in the process of the shot, and you do that by verbalizing decisions. Right. So as I'm drawing my bow back, that's when I say I'm gonna do this right. And then the final decision, the final knockout blow to autopilot, is at the critical second. And I asked people all the time, you know, what do you error jumped out of an airplane. I've not jumped off a cliff into water, not terribly high cliff, but I guess, okay, so a short cliff, right, how did you get yourself to jump? Yeah, you had to make a decision. Nobody is standing at the edge of the cliff and just automatically fine as myself fallen off. Right, there's that moment. There is that moment where they go, oh my god, right, here goes whatever they say. They all say something during that critical second, right, And that's the failed point of most people in their shot, is they fire the shot within the critical second, and that is the one second in time after you believe the aim is complete. So instead of firing the shot in that critical second, fill it with the decision to cause your body potential impact. Same thing when you're standing on that cliff, you're going to cause your body potential impact. That requires a decision to do that movement to start. That same thing in every archery shot or every shot with a firearm. So drawback and aim, get it done, watch it, to keep it. Job number two is to put the concentration into the movement that gets you through your trigger. That second job must be started with your decision. Here I go right, it's said in that critical second, most people, like I said, are punching the trigger in that critical second. I know I did. Man, I did that my whole life until I started to figure out these decisions and when to make them. So I was gonna say, plain Devil's advocate here. Someone listening to this might say, well, if you're an experienced deer hunter, you know that sometimes your only opportunity will be a moment. You'll have this one brief moment, and those most experienced guys can take advantage of that and they can get that shot done quick in that one sliver of opportunity. So this this sounds like it's going to take a long time and it's going to result in missing those opportunities. What would you say to that person or that viewpoint. So there are times when it depends on where you are in your in your shooting. If you are out there and you are using these big white tailed bucks for concentration practice, right, if you are a person that is not yet in control of your shot, how is it going to make you better to punch the trigger on that buck? Right? Yeah, you might get them. You might get them, but you might not. But you damn sure didn't make yourself any better in concentration. Right, So you're gonna have to go to the next high stress moment. Right. It's about having your turning point, that point at which you know I always talk about the hog in South Texas. That was my turning point in the archery, where you know, the hog. I missed numerous shots, wasn't getting through my clicker on my long bow, and finally that hog came in there twenty yards I drew my bow back without making the decisions that I needed to. I drew that bow back, had the same feeling weakness, the same anxiety, all the same stuff. But that one time I got piste off enough to say, I am not doing this again, and that's when I figured out some decisions right. The next time I let my bow down on that shot, hog didn't see me. I picked my bow back up. I said to myself, I am going to shoot this shot perfectly, or I am not going to shoot it. Because that's where I was in my shooting career. I needed to get control of my shot. So that's when I made that original decision. I drew my bow back. As I was drawing my bow back, I said, I'm gonna do this right. And then once I got the right site picture on that hog, I remembered I got a whole other job to do. I gotta work back tension to get through this clicker. Here I go. And I said that, here I go, after the realization that by god, I was actually aimed where I needed to be on this critter that I really wanted to get right. So yeah, it might take some time. But again, you are using shooting to practice your concentration, so you're not trying to get more efficient at shooting. You're trying to get more efficient at concentration. You're getting more efficient at making decisions. You see how this is a different approach, right, So it doesn't take that long you're shooting. A controlled shot might take two seconds more, right, and are you may be going to have a critter walk out, but if that critter is moving through that lane, don't worry, folks, You're not going to forget how to punch the trigger. Right if you have to time a shot on a moving critter, that is not a closed loop control system. That is your old shot where you're aiming in front of it. You might have your pin in between those trees, and then when you see the right site picture, you're gonna punch a trigger. Right. That was is the shot that was required for that environment, But that can't be your go to shot, right. Your go to shot has got to be the controlled shot. So being able to work both environments is the ultimate, right. Like on when I'm training my swat guys, it's they have to shoot as many rounds as they can into a three yard target with their A R system, right, as many rounds as they can in three seconds, and that's a lot of rounds. Right. However, then they instantly have to switch to a two yard target right to where if they press the trigger like they did on the three yard target, there's no way they're going to hit the two hundred yard target right. So instantly having to switch between open and closed up control systems is what practice is all about. But you don't really have to practice your old shot. It's in there. Don't worry about it, right, you're trying to get control of yourself. Have I had creators walk out of my site picture? Yes? I have, and I was plenty happy about it. Yeah. Yeah, I would argue that this this in many cases, not only is it going to result in you not having as many of these rush shots, bad shots, misses, or wounding deer or animals or whatever it might be, but in general, it's just going to help you minimize bad situations. For no other reason that, like you said, it forces you to make decisions, and sometimes that decision might be even before you get into actually taking a shot. It's is this even a smart shot to try to take? Is this? Is this a a situation that can result in a clean, ethical, quick kill? Um? I think lots of times you get into this autopilot even before you start start the shot, and you're just like, oh my gosh, this is my only chance to shoot this stuff. Buck, I gotta shoot right now, and bam, it all happened so fast you didn't even really make a decision on is this a good idea to even try it? Right? You know, when you when you go into this control process shooting program, you start to recognize your speed limits. Right, how long does it really take me to shoot an absolutely controlled shot? And then you're trying to match that with the critter. Is that critter going to stay there long enough for me to get a controlled shot? And if not, you're not going to hit it right if you open loop that fifty yard or you're not going to hit where you think you're gonna hit right. But if that critter has plenty of relaxed and you go, yeah, I got time to do this. It is very very powerful to know exactly how to shoot a controlled shot, Like I know that every shot for the rest of my life will be controlled, no matter what the critter is, no matter what the situation is or who's watching. That is a very powerful confidence to have. It's something that you know, growing up I never had. I'd go on these hunts and go man if I get a shot. I help, I hope I do good right, not even knowing how it was going to go. If you don't know exactly how your shots gonna go, then you have already handed it to autopilot, some some outside being that you think is going to help you. It's not. Your subconscious has a plan for you, and it is a very efficient, uncontrolled shot. That's the reality of it. That's not my opinion. That's just how it works. I've been there and done it so many times, and it took me thirteen years to kill a bull elk with my bow. I'm a two time world alcohol and champion. I can call elk in like a chicken on a string, right, But I could never hold myself together enough to hit that thing that's the size of a barn door. I mean, that's ridiculous. I would shoot shots like, what the hell just happened? What where that? You know? And a lot of people are experiencing the same thing. It's really interesting to see a lot of the celebrity is on TV or you know, just because they're on TV doesn't mean they're not dealing with target panic. And they they talk about I'm in a slump. Well when I watched them shoot. I can see that they're locked completely off the target and they're jumping to the target and punching the trigger. You know, it doesn't have to be that way. And that's kind of a thing that I will say to people on TV. You owe it to your viewers to do it correctly, right, Yeah, you know what I mean, And I mean, show some control. And then for people that aren't on TV, you owe it to the animal to get this under all. Owe it to the animal exactly. Leading by example is a is a huge thing. So so we understand, we understand the issue, like, Okay, there's this problem. We likely are dealing with it in some way or another. Now we've talked about how we can control that through this controlled process of shooting a closed loop system, but I think that knowing how to do it and actually picking it up as a practice in a habit is another thing. So how do we go about practicing this? What's the right way to practice to make sure this becomes a part of our our essence. The practice starts with number one, getting control of your shot right like and actually blueprinting it to where you have that shot. Because people sometimes shoot good, but if you don't know exactly how you did it, then how how can you possibly repeat it? Right? So what you're practicing when you shoot, When you finally make the decisions and you get the knowledge and you shoot a perfectly controlled shot, you're like, that was it? That was the ultimate shot. You've got to ask yourself four questions. Number one, what was I thinking about during that shot? And the answer should be I was thinking about nothing other than my shot activation movement? Question number two? What was I saying during that shot? Right? My I know my concentration was on that movement? What was I saying to get it there? Not only what words was I saying? But at what rate was I saying them? What was my mantra? Right? Question number three? Could I have stopped it? Was I so keenly concentrated on that movement, that one slight little movement that I could have stopped it anywhere within the movement. If you can say yes to that, then you truly were in a closed loop control system. And question number four most important question what decisions did I make to get myself in the process for this one shot? And you have to realize that all these decisions and all these words that you're using and the jobs that you're performing, they only last for that one shot. There is no role to precision shooting. You know some people, Oh man, I'm on a roll. Well, the trains coming and you're standing on the tracks. Right. There is no role to precision shooting. It's one perfectly driven shot at a time. So when you can answer those questions, you now have the blueprint for your controlled shot. Now, when you want to practice, you take that blueprint into the most stressful situations that you can find. That might be just on the range with people you don't know. That might be with your kids hanging off your legs. That might be somebody scratching your head with an arrow. Who knows, right, you have to seek stress because you're no longer practicing your shooting. You are using shooting to practice your concentration. You see what I mean. So when you practice the stuff, you are doing nothing other than strengthening your blueprints, strengthening the mold, strengthening the decisions, and the realization that nobody's got a gun to your head making you shoot an uncontrolled shot. That's how That's how you practice. Are there any specific drills um that might help us on any portion of this. I've heard of a couple of things. You know, a lot of people talk about blank bailing, um, A lot of people talk about the drill where you just draw back and just focus on aiming but never end up shooting. Are those things that will help us with this or are there any other drills like that that you'd recommend that become a part of our part of our practice. Those drills you have to it. Once you understand the science of control process shooting, you will understand the fallacy of those drills. Let's take blank bail shooting for an example. Right, people shoot in front of a blank bail and they are masters of their shot. They are able to concentrate on little aspects of their shot, and they use it for form practice, which is fantastic. But if you're using blank bill shooting for target panic issues, there is a fallacy that lies within. And here is that fallacy. What most people do in that shot in blank bail is they try to get the feel of a controlled shot right, except for they're missing the one thing that takes that control away, and it is their vision. Right. When you are not aiming at anything, you are then free to give the aim away and to put your conscious mind into certain movements within your shot. Now, that is a that is a good thing, except for there is no transfer of those skills between an aim shot and a blank bail shot. Because in a blank bail shot, you don't have your mind screaming at you, we're on shoot it, you know what I mean. So when you you're not necessarily practicing giving the aim away. So a blank bail shot can be used effectively. Right if you ask yourself the right questions, same questions, what was I thinking? What was I saying? Could I have stopped at? What decisions did I make? You take that blueprint into your aim shot? Job number one, drawback and aim, get it done, watch it to keep it very simple, right now, put my concentration into the movement that makes the bow go off essentially, so you can use it. But if you use it and you stop at just trying to get the feel, there will be no transfer between that and an actual shot. You know, when people do just do blank bail and then they go shoot, they are more cognitive for about a day. Right, they have a day of good shooting where they're actually somewhat in control, but they don't realize how they did it because they're allowing autopilot and they have allowed learning to happen. So after that day of controlled shooting, it starts to break, meaning they start to learn. Their subconci just starts to learn and make things more efficient. And then what do they do? They got to go back to the blank bail. So basically, what you're doing on a blank bails, you're you're constantly trying to return yourself to this cognitive stage of learning. I never want you to leave it right. And the drill of drawing back and aiming but not shooting, think about that. What's the core problem? Your mind will not allow you to cause your body impact as a surprise. Well, if it knows that no impact is coming, it's very simple to aim at whatever you want and to dance all over the trigger, but not shoot it right because your mind knows that the impact of the bow is not going to happen. That's why people with extreme target panic. When you say, okay, we're not going to shoot this shot. I just want you to draw back and put your pen on the target. It's very simple, happens in one try, right. But if it says okay, we're gonna shoot this arrow. It goes right back to holding off target, jump into target, punch and triggers and everything. So you know, there's no real drills other than getting the blueprint and then using shooting to strengthen the blueprint. So you know the drill is go find stress because you have to constantly pride you're you're going to become a backyard hero very quickly. People say how long does the program take? It takes as long as it takes you to make a decision. You have the opportunity to change your life in one shot and then understand how you shot that perfect shot, get the blueprint, and now the rest of your life is spent strengthening your blueprint. You talked a little earlier about the different releases that sometimes people progress through them as they get more and more target pant they switched from a from an index finger to thumb, the thumb to the hinge, hinge to the back tension um. Is there any let's say, let's say John Doe listening. You know he's heard all this, he realizes that he's having this issue. Is there a different release you would recommend if we're assuming he was using a basic thirty dollar index finger that he started with as a kid. Um, Is there a change from a release standpoint that would help to begin this process? If if, if you want the very best chance to fix this or does that not matter? Well, it just depends on I. At the end of my program, you'll be able to shoot any release you want. But when you understand open and closed up control systems, there are releases that lend themselves to a closed loop control system much better. Like if you're shooting a type of release that has a very light trigger on it, well, very difficult to evaluate that movement. The movement's very light and it's very short, right, if you were to get a trigger, an index finger trigger, um, like, the best one I know right now is a carter like Mike, And that's the one that you can really set the spring tension hard in it, so you understand that your initial pressure set, your initial setting the hook on that trigger is not going to make it go off. It's very calming right when you're trying to work through this, So you can set that bad boy really tight, I mean where it takes an act of congress to get the thing to go off, right, So you draw back and aim you get yourself through that. Okay, here I go, and you set your finger deep on that trigger and you start that expansion with your back and your chest and all these proper movements. Right, you start that expansion and you're you're feeling it, but then you'll probably feel it stop and that's the point at which your mind's like, nowp wing going anymore because just more and this thing's gonna blow up on me. Right, So that's where you detect that as an error. But it allows you this more robust movement that you that's so much easier for you to evaluate because you're moving it with your back. I mean, you're only moving the thing like not even a sixteenth of an inch, but in your back and in your chest and then expansion, you are feeling movement, and therefore you can evaluate it. So you know, as far as index finger trigger goes, that's about the best. But that's the one that I have people shoot with just to get them over that little hump. And once you get over that hump, you can shoot anyone on you want. Same thing. And there's a lot of really good thumb triggers out there. There's a lot of really good hinges out there. They're all basically the same concepts Hinge releases allow you to you know, have a longer movement that's easier to evaluate. That's why they're much easier to use. And intention activated releases. I like the Standardslavski element just because you can set that thing to where it's not even gonna go off right. And if I have somebody that's having trouble making the decision right, they're still punching the trigger and they're like, man, I just I just can't do it. Well, that's only because you have not yet decided to do it properly or not at all. So I can force the decision with attention activated release, meaning I set that bugger super tight. They draw safety in, drawback safety off, and they start pulling right, and they start expanding through this shot, and we show them all the biomechanically correct movements for that. But they start expanding through the shot and then all of a sudden they get this big yank right and their body collapses and it's a big hiccup. Right. That is the moment in time when they shifted everything to the subconscious. That's when they went, screw it, you do it for me. Autopilot right, and autopilot tried to do it, but the boat didn't go off, and they got to see all of the pre ignition movements that are in there, so they pushed the safety and they let it down and we talk about it. What were you thinking about? Well, I was thinking about my movement, but then I just said, screw it. I started thinking when is this thing going to go off? And as soon as you get stuck in that question when is this thing going to go off, you are no longer in your closed loop. You're no longer thinking about the movement. Your movement just stopped because now your thought process is in when is this thing going to go off? And that's exactly a second here, Like people are calling me from the hospital for my appointment. But so you know, that's where you have to get good at detecting errors in your thought process, You see what I mean? So, uh, I have them do this tension to activating and as soon as they have that hiccup, we talk about it. What were you thinking? What were you saying? Well, I wasn't saying anything, right. Could you have stopped it? Well, I could have stopped it up to the point where I gave it away and what decisions did you make? Well, I really didn't make any decisions. I was just trying to do good right and that's where you get the where they were actually at. Then I haven't do it again, and their yard and through that release, but they don't have the hiccup. They finally came to the realization that they need to stay in the movement both still doesn't go off, so they pushed the safety in and they let it down and then I'll start to lighten it to where they still have to work mentally, working hard through this trigger. It's not the most accurate setting obviously, but they're working hard and they're conditioning their mind and then finally that thing goes off, and then it goes off, and then we can move to a hinge and we moved to a thumb trigger, and we apply the same science to whatever trigger system you want to shoot. I've I've found kind of a similar a little bit of challenges. I've been making this shift mysel self. I stuck with an index finger release last year because I didn't want to change everything. Um as I was just kind of starting this midsummer, so I started using a better index finger release, So with a harder trigger um. And one thing though, I even though I've noticed significant improvement as I've been going through this process, as he was detailed to hear, sometimes I would find that I would be pulling through it. I'd be I'd be going through that shot that shot activation process, going through the poll and it just wouldn't go off, and it wouldn't go off, and it wouldn't go off, and eventually I'd have that screw up moment where I'd start squeezing my finger then again because I'm like this, I've got to do something to get this thing off. I feel like I've pulled as far back as my shoulders are go um. And so for me, it's been trying to figure out, like, Okay, is it because I'm not loading the trigger consistently to just the right point when I'm starting that or different things like that, And maybe that's where a different release might help me with that kind of thing. But I can totally relate to what you mentioned there. You know, it's what you just it. It's not going off, it's not going off, it's not going off. That's where your mind is. It's not in the movement, it's in the this thing is not going off, and therefore you're not moving if that's where your thought process is, right, so then you switch your thought process too. I gotta make this thing go off, and you move your finger. Well, that didn't make you any better, right, It would be much better for you to get off the trigger and let it down right, and to go through what was I thinking about? What was I saying? Could I have stopped it? What decisions did I make? You've got to get the blueprint for your controlled shot. And you know, if you shoot a bad arrow, you ask yourself the same questions so that when you make those errors again, and they're going to happen again in your thought process, they're much more easily recognized. So you know. And I talked about letting down a lot, but I don't expect people to let down on critters. I did that when I was trying to hit my turning point right, but I didn't understand the science at that point I was in two thousand eight. So now I want people to practice letting down right, drawback, and name get it done, watch to keep it. If you detect an error in your thought process, realize nobody's got a gun in your head and let that shot down. But you also have to practice the fight, and you have to know how to fight. When you get in that situation of man, this thing is not going off. You have options. You can let it down or you can fight. And the fight equals more aggressive speech in your mantra. Right, So you might be saying, keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling, catwen's this thing going to go off? Well, that's not the right thought process. Fulling, keep palling, keep palling. Right, where you add aggression to your speech, that adds strength to your movement. Right, So that's the fight. That's what I mean. When I'm shooting at a big screaming bow up with my longbow, I am screaming to myself inside my head, right, I'm using the aggressive speech to get me through that shot activation movement, because by god, I am not going to shoot an uncontrolled arrow. Got no reason to. Now we're talking about this whole pulling through action, and we've been talking about the mental side of it. How do we talk ourselves through that? But I actually haven't gotten your perspective on the right way to physically do that. Um and and let's focus selfishly since I should a compound bow. Can you walk me through how how you believe that the proper pull through motion should be the actual physical action that coincides with our our mental mantra that you just mentioned there, the activation. So I I work a lot with Tom Clem at Rocky Mountain, specially Gear, and he is just a phenomenal form coach. He's a Level four or NTS coach and he has helped me a lot. He's helped thousands of archers. But, um, you know, I I was doing the right motion, but I didn't know how to explain it, and so Tom sat me down and basically taught me exactly what's going on in my movement and how to explain it. So, what you're doing to get yourself through that release, Like, let's say you're shooting with an index finger, right, So first of all is setting up your finger on the trigger. It can't be out towards the end. It should be in the wall that is between your first and second Um, well, from from the end of your finger there's decrease and then there's a wall and there's another crease, So it at least has to be on that wall, if not in the second crease. Okay, So that is what I consider setting the hook. And once you have at the hook, you are basically taking everything behind you, not farther back. You're taking it behind you. That is the proper direction. So when you do that, so you draw back and you've got you put your side on the target, you acquire your hook, and you may have to reaffirm your aim right because putting the your finger on the hook might move your aim slightly. So you've got the hook, and then everything from like let's say you're right handed, Like if you've got a hinge in the center of your body, right and you're going to open that hinge and it opens at your peck muscle. So from everything from the right side, your peck, your shoulder, your elbow, everything rotates behind you. Right. That is the motion of the people called back tensions. You're using your lower traps muscle to do that, and you're just shifting all of that stuff behind you like you're trying to touch somebody behind you, Like if somebody had a their hand open palm an inch and a half behind your elbow, right directly behind you. When you shoot that shot, your elbow should never touch them. It should sweep inside their hand. You see what I mean. So you should be and if you're shooting an index finger, you have to shoot with a fairly relaxed hand. You can't be grabbing onto the release and taking the release with that rotation. You have to keep your hand open. Finger is on the trigger right deep on that tight hook on it. You've applied an initial pressure that you have to determine with whatever release you're shooting. So you set your initial pressure and then you start this expansion where your whole, your chest opens, your back contracts, and your chest expands, causing that rotation to go around behind you. And the feeling that you're gonna get, you're gonna have to uh two feedback points if you will. Number one, you're gonna feel attention increase on your finger. You're not moving your finger, but you're feeling attention increase on it. And the second place you're gonna feel attention increases on your wrist trap. So if you can imagine you are using this motion that we talked about to pull your relaxed hand through the strap, that's what's going to create that sixteenth of an inch of movement to create that surprise break shot. So and then when you get into thumb triggers, you've got a couple of different ways to do it. You can use back tension right that same rotational movement, or you can use hand manipulation. So if you use hand manipulation, you have locked your thumb on the trigger and you are rotating your hands similar to how you would shoot a hinge. Right, you are increasing pressure on the top of the release with your ring and pinky finger. You're essentially rolling the release into your thumb. That's hand manipulation. But if you're going to do that, you have to have a very strong holding position, meaning your elbow is in alignment or inside the string. So these are some things that you need to look at in a mirror. Have somebody take a picture from behind and see if you're where your elbow is at, because if you're in alignment, it's a hell bot easier to hold your bow back. So you know, same thing with a hinge. You can do a hinge with rotation, but most people shoot a hinge with with hand manipulation where they're relaxing their index finger and an increasing pressure on their pinky and ring finger to get that thing to rotate. So uh and then of course attention activated is going to use that back tension movement that we talked about. That's that's definitely helpful. Yeah, So I've got one final question for it, Jill. Everything you've talked about here today has been about taking control the mental side of things to help you with that shot. But is anything that you've learned in understanding this moment or this process. Is any of this applicable to handling the larger issue of what we might call buck fever, which might which some people maybe will lump target panic into buck fever. But if I'm just talking about this, maybe the moments ahead of the shot, even when you see a target animal coming in and you lose control of of everything. You're maybe you're shaking like crazy, you're hyper ventilating, you're just really really excited. And this is even before he's in range, maybe before you're going through that whole shot sequence. Um, is there anything you've learned about the mental side of things that can be applied to better handling those preceding moments. So all of the things that we've talked about are in the frontal cortex of your mind right there, their cognitive thoughts, those don't live in your midbrain. Like I said, midbrain is fight or flight training and experience. So if you're losing control, as that buck's coming in your your breathing rate increases, your blood pressure increases, everything increases, Right, you're getting adrenaline dump. All these things are happening in your body and it's affecting what portion of your brain you're going to be using. Your controlled shot does not live in your midbrain, so you have to keep your heart rate down so that you can remember your decisions and your jobs in your shot. And to do that, you know this, This concept has been around for eons since people have been in stressful situations, and that is combat breathing. Right, So as that buck is coming in, you're like, oh my god, that's a monster, right, you should then as soon as you start into this, start your combat breathing, which is in through the nose for a four hold for a four count, out through the mouth for a four count hold for a four count. It's used in you know, in combat and in any stressful situation because what that does is that lowers your heart rate and it allows you to remain cognitive because if you go into hyper drive, you know, autopilots coming like a freight train and you're gonna shoot this blacked out shot. But when you practice making decisions and you have this determination and your first decision is I'm going to shoot this shot perfectly or I'm not gonna shoot it at all, these are all very calming things because you have a very specific plan and you have knowledge that you are going to shoot a controlled shot no matter what. Like I said before, it's very powerful. So you start your combat breathing and that allows you to remain cognitive. Then that buck's coming in. He's getting closer though. Oh man, this is gonna happen. But now you're you're thinking and you know the decisions that you must make in every precision shot. So Harry comes, Oh he's turn a broadside. Okay, I'm gonna shoot. Now. Now you have that realization. Everybody knows what that feeling is. Oh my god, this is going to happen. Right you start to bring that bow up. That's when you make the original decision, I'm gonna shoot the shot perfectly or I'm not going to shoot it at all. Now you are within the shot and you're bringing yourself in the present as you draw the bow back say something to remain in the present. Like I said, I say, I'm gonna do this right, that's as I'm drawing my bow back. That doesn't change the speed at which I draw my bow. I'm just in the present of the shot process. And it's amazing how present you are when you make those decisions. And then you get the full draw and you get that pin on there, that's not time to shoot, that's time to make another decision. Here I go set my hook and I'm working keep full and keep full, and keep full and keep full, and pooh, that shot breaks and it goes exactly where your pin was, or exactly where your instinctive site picture told it to go. So that's how to stay in control of these situations. And I've you know, I've I've used this in the tactical world. I've used it in I've used it in bow hunting a lot, right, And that's it's how we work. And again it's not my opinion, this has been proven time and time again. In combat. You've got to keep your heart rate down so that you can think, because this whole thing is based on cognitive ability, not how smart you are, but just your ability to remain cognitive in the cognitive stage of learning and keep yourself from going into automatic autopilot. Well, I I can't tell you how much I appreciate you doing this kind of wortual sharing this with with us and sharing with us with the world. I really do think that the way that you communicate this stuff, the way that you're breaking things down here, it is you know, I don't want to say it's changing lives completely, but changing hunting lives at least. Um. I think this is really, really, really going to help people. It's I know, it's already helped me. I'm excited to continue to improve using these practices of yours. And where can people go to learn more? You've got a full course that dives into these things and in much greater detail with video, which I think can really help illustrate a lot of these concepts. I think that's gonna be really helpful for people. Where can folks find that stuff? My website is shot i q dot com and on there you'll find my online course in Control Process Shooting, where we talk about all this stuff and it's really cool. There's lots of drills in there that I have you actually learn your speed, limits of movement and what all the science is and when to make the decisions and you get to see it happen. And so that's the online course. I've also written a book about It's available on Amazon or on shot i Q. But you know, I just want people to not waste time. I mean, it took me a lifetime to figure this stuff out, and I don't want people to waste time in reaching their turning point, right. I want you to have success. I want you to have control. It is. You know, when you say you're changing lives, that is a literal statement. I mean, we are really changing the lives of people because people that are in control of their shot and archery is everything in their life. That means a lot. That makes for much happier people. I can guarantee that, and much happier males makes for much happier females. For Yeah, I agree. I think this. I know of so many people just personally that I think this could so positively impact. And I'm just so glad that you're able to come on here and and share it with our with our audience. I appreciate it, Joel. I'll make sure to have links back to the website and the book and the online course of people want to check that out and they don't remember that the U r L that will be on our website too, and be sure to check that stuff out. Guys and Joel, thank you so much, thanks for having me, sir, absolutely, and that is it. Another episode wrapped up. And if you found this interesting, which I hope you did, if you are a bowl hunter, I gotta believe that you will have found this as interesting as I did. Probably if you want to go on and see that online video course that Joel talked about, Joel is actually gonna offer all of us here at Wired to Hunt twenty five dollar off discount from that online course. So if you go to shot i q dot com and then when you purchase that online course, if you use promo code W two H, you'll get twenty five dollars off that shot i Q online shooting course. So again, the promo code is W two H. And my one other update I want to give you is just a reminder, like I mentioned in the introduction, over the next week or so, I'm gonna be out in North Dakota scouting and shed hunting, putting together semi live video blog, so head on over to the Wired to Hunt YouTube channel and make sure you subscribed and check out those videos. Assuming I can get decent internet service, I will be posting videos throughout the course of that trip, and if not, I'll just post a bunch of them when I get back. But it's gonna be a fun trip. It's gonna be absolutely beautiful out there, and if we're lucky, gonna find a bunch of bones too, so that should be fun. I hope you can follow along, of course I'll be. I'll be sharing the story on Instagram and Facebook in different places like that too. So that's it for me today. Thank you for listening. I also want to give a big thanks to our partners who helped make this all possible. So big thanks to sit a Gear, YETI, Cooler's, Matthew's Archery May even Optics, the White Tail Institute of North am Erica, Trophy Ridge and hunt Terra Maps. And finally, again, thank you all for listening, Thanks for tuning in, Thanks for learning with me as we've gone through this, you know, whether it be archery or hunting or any of the different things that we've been going through kind of here together, both myself and Dan and hopefully you too. Hopefully we are all growing as hunters and uh I think that's a pretty cool thing. So until next time, thanks again, and stay wired to hunt.