00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. This is episode number two hundred, Yes to zero zero, and today we've got a show that lives up to that big number as we've pulled together three of the very best d I Y white tail bow hunters I know for an in depth panel discussion on what it takes to become a truly great deer hunt. All right, folks, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sitka Gear, and today is our two hundred episode. Um. Yeah, we I launched the wire Hunt podcast. I think it was in the spring of two thousand fourteen. So we're approaching our fourth year and uh doing one episode a week and then during the season doing two episodes a week. We've we've slowly made our way to two hundred. So first and foremost, Dan, thank you for being with me for a lot of those You've This has been fun. Yeah, dude, I didn't realize what this was going to entail, and now that you say four years, it makes me look back and to h to the shed hunt that we had, right, and You're like, dude, I'm gonna start a podcast. Do you want to be the co host? And I'm like, yeah, I'll do that. And here we are today. A lot has changed. Huh, that's right, A lot has changed. Yeah. And um, when we had our one hundredth episode, and this is a couple of years ago, I guess for that episode, we did a panel discussion with three different kind of big name deer hunters. So we had Leilakowski from The Crush TV, we had Dr Grant Woods from Growing Deer TV, and we had Bill Winkie from Midwest White Tail. And my idea for that podcast what we did was we had all three of them on and then I asked them a handful of of really you know, sometimes often debated questions related deer hunting, and then got the three of them to offer all their own perspectives and debate a little bit on all those things. And that turned out to be a pretty cool one. So I thought, now, fast forward another hundred episodes later to do something similar. So today we're gonna do another panel discussion, but instead of having a bunch of big name deer hunters. I wanted to get together a collection of some of the very best deer hunters that fly under the radar. So today we've got three absolute killer d I Y deer hunters that are going to answer some of the same questions that we asked the guys back an episode one hundred, but we're gonna get a d I Y perspective, and then I'm also gonna ask you know, We're gonna get some different questions in there too that are relevant to the way these guys hunt. But all three of these guys hunt a lot of heavily pressured ground, they hunt public ground, um, they hunt stuff, they got permission on small pieces, public pieces, and they do it the way that you know, all the rest of us are trying to do it as well. So I think it's gonna be very interesting, very relatable. And so who we've gotten the show here, Dan are two guys who have been on the podcast in the past and one new guest. So we have Andy May with us again. And uh Andy joined us down in New Orleans for our live podcast at the Quality Deer Management Association Convention this past summer. So and he's back and he's one of the very best hunters I know. Definitely one of the very best hunters in Michigan I know of. Um, so he's back. And then we've got Joe L. Singer, who is out in your home state, Dan, out in Iowa. He joined us last spring, I think, and that was a really really great conversation, so I'm excited to pick his brain more. And then finally, we're also gonna be joined by a guy by the name of Jesse Coots and he comes from New York. So we've got guys from all across the country and they've also all hunted in a lot of other states too, so they're gonna bring a lot of different perspectives, a lot of different ideas, and generally I'm just really stoked for this conversation. Um. But before we get those guys on, we have another exciting thing to talk about on episode two hundred. And it's kind of cool that this falls on the two episode because it's kind of a special episode for a lot of reasons. Um, Dan, I'm a dad, You're a dad, dude, it happened. I think I think the dynamic of this entire podcast is going to change now because you you know how, especially when it comes to I think it's perfect right we have last on the hundredth episode, we had the big names on, right, and not a lot of people can late to how those they hunt. But now we have these three guys on who are the d I Y. You know, they're just like me and you. They have full time jobs, right, they go out and they're on public ground or permission private and they go you know, the grinders, right and and and it's kind of relatable in a way because now you're going to slowly start relating to what I'm going through as a dad with a kid of your own. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of stuff is coming full circle. Um. If for anyone who's followed this podcast since the beginning, I think it has been an interesting evolution to see you and me, um, you know, grow as deer hunters from two thousand and fourteen till now and then also now following us as we've each started our own families and how that's changing things. Um. We've got to document that a lot over the past few years with you, and now that begins with me. Um. Hopefully it's gonna be a good thing. Potentially everyone's gonna stop listening because they hate here just talk about kids. We had. We had someone slammed the kid talk again on an iTunes review, So it's only gonna get worse. But um, but all joking aside. It's it's something that a lot of people go through, right, I mean, this is part of life for a lot of people. And we're gonna we're gonna live it and we're gonna share it. And uh yeah, man, Uh two weeks early, my little guy came two weeks early. His name is Everett Daniel Kenyon. And uh I know he as much as I love you, buddy, we didn't name him after you, but but we'll let you believe that because he's named after his uh his grandpa. My wife's dad's name is dan Um. But yeah, man, from from here on out, you can you can treat him like he's named after you and spoil him and take him honey on all your Iowa properties. Please right, help this off? Would you be if I like, when he starts getting old enough to hunt by himself, I give him an open invitation on the property that and not you. He starts laying down like one fifties, you know, his first couple of years of hunting and you're like, hey, man, I'm here if you need me. That's that's probably what's gonna happen. But i'd be I'd be happy for him, right, I got I got a couple of questions for you. I mean, you're living this, you're living this dad life now, and we're kind of man, only a month apart from my youngest, a couple of months apart from my youngest to your you know, I got a I got a four month old and you have basically a newborn. And uh so, what I want to know is, was is having another human life in you, in your life that you're one responsible for? Like this? Was it as big of a shock as you thought it was gonna be? Yeah? Man, I mean everyone tells you like your whole life changes and in a manner of seconds, you're gonna everything else won't matter as much, and all this stuff. You know, you've been telling me these things forever and everybody else has been telling me them, and I'm always like yeah, yeah, yeah, um, but it is amazing. As soon as he as soon as it all happened and he showed up, Um, everything does change, and it I mean, my whole, my whole world has changed I mean how I live my life already in the last two weeks has changed. What I worry about has changed overnight. Um. The things I'm excited about are looking forward to have changed. So yeah, no doubt about it. Stuff is different. It's awesome. UM. I still feel pretty confident that I'm gonna be able to continue enjoy all the same things we did in the past, um, but just in a different way probably. Um. And I'm just so excited to share all those things with him now. UM. So I'm rediscovering sleep. For a while, I lost it. But we're figure and not a system, so I'm sleeping again. Um. I'm slowly starting to feel comfortable. For a long time, I was like in NonStop paranoia, like is he breathing? Is he okay? Is this okay? Is that okay? Um? So we're starting to figure that out a little bit. Um. He's super stink and cute. I always You know, when you and me went on our eltcutting trip, I don't know, it's like two or three years ago. Now, like the first day or second day, you were already like talking about how much you missed your your daughter, um and all that stuff, And I was like, oh man, he's just been gone for two or three days, like man up Dan. But but I can already like see, like I've already mentioned a kaya like, man, I can already imagine, like when I'm taking off on my trips, how much I'm gonna miss him, because I already, like I work in my office for like an hour or two and then I'm like, I just gotta go out and see him for a little bit. Um, So it's pretty it's pretty special. I'm excited for a lot of cool stuff to come. And uh, he's awesome. He's just he's awesome, is my little buddy, and uh, everything is different now. Absolutely, I'll tell you what, Man, there's gonna be a shift someday. And I've I've I keep after telling you know, I I have to keep telling myself that as frustrating as kids are and as much as they pish you off and cock block you and uh like like all these things, that you'll look back someday ten fifty years from now and wish that you still you know, like you could go back and relive those days. And um, I haven't necessarily hit I don't think those days yet, just because my family is still in the growing stage. Well, hopefully we're done growing but uh, you know, but um, there's ways to ensure that, you know, Dan, oh do like I gotta get some of those nine figure chronicle checks coming in, and I can guarantee you that when they do, oh it's snippy. Oh, Dan Johnson, Yeah, I think that's probably good idea. Man. Otherwise I worry you're gonna have like the Brady Bunch pretty soon. I wouldn't worry about it, like we like me and Mark had this discussion before uh we started recording about quote unquote getting action him him post baby and me with three kids, and like, right now in my life, I don't have to worry about getting my wife pregnant again. Yeah, I guess the new new phase in life. Uh yeah, man, I I've caught myself already, like you know, wishing I can't wait till he can walk around, or I can't wait till I can take him hunting, or can't wait till he can hold his head up on his own. But then I also need to remind myself just enjoy the right now, you know, just enjoy this moment because everyone, everybody tells you it goes by so fast you're gonna blank in one day. They're growing up and gone. So I'm gonna try to do a good job of just soaking in right now, enjoying who he is right at this moment and all these little moments. And uh, and that's pretty special in its own So I got a lot to learn. That, that's for sure. We all do. It's it's continuous, continuous learning to it never really stops. And I will say one other thing, and um, you know, we we talked about this a lot, and I think it's just I can already feel it mattering more now, and that being the responsibility we hold as hunters and making sure that this way of life is still around, that there are still wildlife and wild places, public lands, healthy you know, ecosystems, clean air, clean water, all that kind of stuff that we've talked about that matters so much. Well, now that there's a little guy here that I'm responsible for and that you know, is going to be around here hopefully long after I'm gone, I'm just like thinking about that stuff even more, Like I need to make sure that that I leave a place that's better for him and not worse. Um, So I can see that is only going to grow in my in my in my mind, I guess as the years progress. So so if there's anything that people can expect to hear more of in the coming months and years, They're gonna hear more kids stories. They're gonna hear uh, They're gonna hear more about how important it is to protect our way of life and our wildlife and our places. Um and they're going to hear more about bad reviews on iTunes about our kid talks. So there's all that to look forward to. Well, I tell you what I mean. It's it's also a little bit about like a thought process change, right when I you know, back in the day, you know, I used to be all about big antlers, right, Oh, big antlers is is what matters? Well, I think we need to change that. And I know I've changed on it. I mean, I don't know what it we the hunting industry, the hunters in this community needs to change and stop putting. I don't know, maybe this is coming out of left field, but like we have to. We have to change the way we think about how we look at success and and and I think that needs to be changed, uh, first and foremost before we try to do anything else because it's gonna be a tough battle when we're trying to get other people into hunting and all they see is giant bucks being killed and they don't wanna. They don't want to go out and do it because just like the youth today, unless it's easy, they don't want to do it. Yeah. Or on the other hand, if people just hear about all these deer hunters talk about is how they're trying to kill this trophy buck, trophy of this trophy that I think that turns off a lot of people too, because the the uh, the perception of what quote unquote trophy hunting is or means is something most non hunters are pretty turned off by. So if we're trying to grow the hunting community, trophy hunting is definitely not a message is going to resonate with them. Um. Now, how people define trophy hunting, of course, is very different. Um, but I think your point is well heard. For me, it's always been and this could be like a half hour discussion, so I'm gon try not to get too far to this, But for me as a deer hunter, it's always been I'm very goal oriented. UM, So I always like to push myself to achieve something or to strive for something difference in so you know, sometimes that's been like an Antler score. Sometimes that's been an age, sometimes that's been just an experience. Um. But I think having goals that's not a bad thing. Um But I think, you know, pinning everything just on an arbitrary inch amount or something like that and determine the worth of a hunt or the worth of a deer or something like that just by a score, that does seem to really take a lot out of it. Um. So you know, I'm never gonna hate on someone who pays attention to that stuff, because I do pay attention to it. But there's a lot, there's so so much more to it, and we need to at least I personally feel like it's important for myself too to celebrate all the aspects of it, because you're absolutely right. I think that too much of an obsession with that which there certainly is is not a good thing for the future of deer hunting. And I think even for just for enjoyment of it, I think it can be pretty negative to So it's it's finding that balance, right and um, enjoying all aspects of hunting, respecting and respecting all aspects of the hunt. And um, you know the quote unquote big deer that will come if you if you focus on all these other details and try to do things the right way, you'll have that kind of success. That that's what you're looking for. Absolutely. Man, Let's see here, I got a question for you, right, I mean, how much time do we have left before we gotta cut it? I don't know. I mean people people listening might be saying no, none, But what do you gotta ask me? And we'll see how far we can go? Right, that's a big number. Okay, that's a lot of podcasts. Do you have any that stick out in your mind that are just like, oh, man, this is one of my favorite ones and I could I could go back and listen to it over and over. Um. Well, you know, I think the Shane Mahoney episode will always be one of my favorites because he's just a legend, um, a guy I could listen to talk for hours, and in that conversation was just a topic that I'm always fascinated by. You know. We talked about, um, the history of hunting in North America and kind of our ancestors, and then the history of like conservation and hunters and public lands and all of that, um, you know, in the nineteen hundreds. That was fascinating. And then he also talked about the future of hunting and what we need to be thinking about as far as how we represent ourselves, um, how we communicate about hunting, and those are all things that are kind of near and dear to my heart, and Shame just does such a great job of verbalizing all that. So so that's definitely a favorite. Um you know. The Mark Jury episode, episode number sixty three that still stands out is just like, I don't know, he's so succinctly spoke to so many different little topics related to deer hunting in the details of you know, the things he's seen that drive deer activity and different stuff that I just geek out about. So many people have loved that one too. That's still a personal favorite of mine, and in market is just a wealth of information. I always enjoy hearing from him. He's got a great name to um ah what else? What else? What else? Um? I don't know, those two stand out, you know, the one we had our while I had my wife and then my Buddy Corey's wife on that was a funny one way back in the first year, right, I don't know, these are the ones that are popping up in my mind. Anything for you that stands out. So I was, I was scrolling through the episodes today and I'm gonna go all the way back to episode number twelve, okay, and that's the life of a white Tailed bum. And it's basically just a topic about you know, how guys like us are just in it sixty five days a year, right, I mean, that's all we think about, that's all we care about. And um, I I think everybody should go back to that episode and and check that out. It's only like twenty eight minutes. That was a short one, but it was kind of a neat, neat, little look at the life of a crazy people like you and me, um and our listeners. That's like, that's a good one from way back, way back. That's a way back episode, you know. I think there if you haven't went back and listened to some of the old episodes, there really is some some good stuff. Now, you and me, we probably sounded like bumbling idiots, but I think we had some quality content from guests I mean, we had a great episode from Jeff Sturgis on food plots, Um, the original Dan in Fault Interview episode number three that was packed with good stuff. Um, we had all good Jeff Danker episode, there was Craig Doherty had a good episode with him talking about both habitat management and hunting. Um. Yeah, you know, we've just been fortunate to be able to talk to a lot of interesting people and it's been cool to to be able to have all these conversations, and also you and me get to benefit from it. You know, I think we've both grown as deer Hunter has become hopefully you know, a lot better. It hasn't always translated into more filled tags, but I definitely feel like a more accomplished, uh more well rounded hunter. Um. And I know that that you know, not every year, but most years translates to actual meeting the freezer. So it's just exciting to see where things are going to go. Exciting stuff. And I tell you what, as much as I love having the guests on this on this podcast, you know, the listener gets a lot of great content out of that. But from an author standpoint, I gotta love just the bullshit sessions that we do. It's just me and you because I don't know. I just I love to talk about deer. Uh And I don't know, man, it's uh that on top of I'll tell you what, and I I owe you a big thank you for number one, you know, back at that shout hunt asking me to be a part of this. Uh, I love And I know I don't get to hop on absolutely every episode just because of scheduling conflicts with you know, three kids and work and whatnot. But I love talking about deer, and I just I don't know. I I'm thankful that I gotta be a part of this and it's it's helped me with you know, the nine fingers and all nine finger chronicles and all that stuff. So I owe you a big thank you. O A man, you are very welcome and I appreciate you being a part of this too. And you've brought a really you brought a one of a kind thing to the show that nobody else could. And for that, didn't I see a didn't I see like an application out there for you know, co hosting. Nope, Nope, that is a job bumpening that we will not be feeling. Hopefully, yeah, I think you're locked in as long as your hearts still ticking and you're willing to do it, I think you're stuck um b Essen with me every week for the rest of our lives. Stand. So, so there you go, and we probably should wrap this up because I think our conversation with our guests is gonna be a long one. So I suppose though for two two hundredth episode, it should be expected that it will be a long one, but it will be five of us on this, so it's gonna be a lot of voices, a lot of ideas, a lot of different perspectives. And uh, I think that is probably fitting for the Wired Hump podcas test. Herewisodes in, So Dan, let's take a quick break for our sick Gear store of the day, and then we will get Joe, Andy and Jesse on the line. For this week's Sita story. We're joined by Sitka ambassador Kyle Hansen, who tells us about getting his first turkey with a bow. Alright, spring of two thousand seventeen, I decided that I wanted to try and get my first ever spring turkey with a bow. Having just picked up the bow a couple of months prior I decided that it was going to be bow or bust. I figured I was going to have to hunt from start to finish to this season and most likely go home empty handed as I've done before, with a shotgun. On day two in the field, I ended up arrowing my first tom ever. He came into the field at about seven am with some hems and started his way over to me. When he reached thirty yards my maximum effective range on that day, I let one fly, hitting him square and finishing with one lethal shot, and just like that, my Spring Turkey season was wrapped on Kyle. So he was wearing sick as Fanatic hoodie. If you'd like to create a sick of story of your own, or to learn more about Sitka's technical hunting apparel, visit sitka gear dot com. All right, and and real quick here before we get to this interview, I just have to say that pulling off a five person conference call podcast interview over the internet, uh, it's it's a little tricky. And I unfortunately I'm telling you this because we had some technical difficulties with this one. And someday, if the stars aligned and I make it big and I all of a sudden have the funds to to fly everybody in here in person to do these interviews here. That will make things a lot easier. That'd be really nice. But until then, I'm gonna have to keep hillbilly rigging it like I am right now and do this across phone lines and the internet. And so what happens here, unfortunately is that Dan got dropped off the line mysteriously. So so Dan's gone. And then we also have some weird little audio issues, some weird noises occasionally, some weird clicks and pops. Um, it's a little it might be just a touch distracting at times, but it won't be so bad that you can't take in all of the information and good stuff that these guys have to offer. And Manna, the perspectives that these three hunters share I enjoyed so much. I really do think everyone can learn something from these guys in this conversation. So I'm really excited for you to enjoy it. So apologies again for a little bit of these audio issues. Thanks to your patients, and enough of me. Let's get right to it alright with us now on the line is all sorts of people we have got Joe l singer Andy may and Jesse Coots. And I'm not going to ask them each to introduce themselves. I'm actually gonna try to throw things around here a little bit since we're doing this panel discussion, and since it's all kind of started from an idea that my buddy Andy had, I want Andy to kick us off here, because Mr Mayor, you had this idea of putting together these d I Y deer hunter profiles, and you went out and found these different guys that are just tremendous deer hunters from across the country that do it the hard way, and you went out and you interviewed them and you put together these great blog posts for us. And so that's kind of why we're here now today because all three of you guys on the line now have been a part of that profile series. And Andy, since you found a lot of these guys, are knew a lot of these guys. I was hoping you could just introduce us briefly, uh, to who else we have on the line here, to Joe and Jesse. So can you give us a quick cliff notes on who Joe is and then who Jesse is? Yeah? Oh man, these two guys I'll tell you Joe L. Singer, Um, he uh frequent a forum called The Hunting Beasts that I also get on once in a while. And I think everybody knows you know, the Hunting Beasts. Well, it's known for being a group of hardcore hunters, mostly d I Y type hunters. Lots of public land, lots of high pressured private land. Um, you know, just the hardcore guys that just live and breathe this stuff. And um, Joe is uh, I mean he's a standout over there. Um. Just his experience and his knowledge of white tails, um, and just how far he takes his his scouting and his preparation. Um. I mean it's it's unmatched. It actually blows my mind. And and I I put in a lot of time. Um, and you know, Joe just he he doesn't leave anything to chance, you know, I mean he he makes his own success. And it just kind of blows my mind every year how successful he is. I mean two three, you know, sometimes four bucks a year, Um, you know, doing it the hard way, and just a guy I really look up to you. Um, he's inspiring. Um. And you know, switching over to Jesse, I same thing I met Jesse through another forum many years ago, and Uh, I messaged him because he had a four bucks season, and I remember a comment that he wrote and said, you know he was able to kill his last four target bucks on the first day of the season. There's there's something along those lines. I was like, Man, I gotta I gotta pick this guy's brain. So I messaged him and uh, we kind of hit it off and we've been buddies ever since. Um. And Jesse is one of those guys that I mean, he's as hardcore as like Um. He doesn't it doesn't matter if it's white tail, um, elk mule deer. I mean, if he goes somewhere, uh there's an animals gonna die, it's gonna be a good one. And he's just, I mean, one of the most efficient killers, if not the most efficient killer that I know. I mean, he's he's like me, he's got kids. Um doesn't get a ton of time out in the woods, but he gets it done every single year on multiple animals and uh, with very little time spent in the woods. So now that Andy has fluffed you guys up really nicely, Um, Joe, Joe, do you want to give your perspective on Andy since you had done his intro for the d I Y Deer Hunter profile and website. Yeah, I'd be happy to um. First of all, he's making me blushed a little bit. That's not very nice. But uh yeah, I mean Andy and I have known each other kind of you through the Hunting Beast forum, and we've got to know each other a little bit outside of that, um lately. And he I've I've watched him for years and and he's one of those guys that he makes it look easy and everybody knows it's not easy. Um. But and he would freely admit it's not easy for him to do it, but he finds success um so quickly that it almost seems like wow, you know, like he's not even trying. But behind the scenes, there's no one really more hardcore than Andy. Um. He he lives breathe hunting, particularly deer hunting. UM s five days a year, so and that's what it takes to get done. He's always thinking, for thinking about an angle, thinking about a buck, thinking about a way to you know, to get in and get the job done. So and that that starts the day after he killed a buck. The last season, I think, so, um, it's pretty impressive. Um. And I'm I have to say, I'm pretty pretty honored to be considered a guest with these two guys, because, uh, I mean, I'm just an Iowa farm kids, so I freely admit that, Um, I live in a target rich environment. You know, I take pride in the detailed hunter, but I live in a target rich environment compared to out eastern Michigan. So UM, I'm looking forward to hearing what they have to say, that's for sure. Yeah. And if you feel humbled to be in this company, imagine me who hasn't done anything compared to you guys. And and Dan was so intimidated by the three of you that he just dropped off the call. So so so the way, it's not redheaded joke the whole time, exactly. He can't defend himself and what I want to do from here. Then it's kind of approached this like a panel discussion. So I'm gonna ask a question and then I'm appointed to one of you and get your thoughts, and we'll just go down the line and you guys can give your own perspectives or you can, you know, disagree with what the other people said or add on whatever you want, and we'll kind of trying to move through a bunch of questions relatively rapid fire style to cover as many different topics as we can. UM. But if there's something where you guys, you know, really vehemently want to argue something out, feel free to do that. UM. But these are some questions that I think will be particularly relevant to you guys and how you hunt. And then there's also some questions here that I asked back on our episode when we did our last panel discussion, and our last panel discussion was with Bill Winky, Dr Grant Woods, and Lee Lakowski. So those three guys answered some of these questions and they duked it out between themselves, and now I want to ask some of the same questions to you guys and have you duke it out, and then it'll be kind of interesting to see how your three perspectives compared to their three perspectives, kind of the our big name TV folks under the radar, d I y deer hunter folks, and I think it's an interesting comparison. So that's kind of what we're gonna do. And the first question, though, I want to say we're to send to Jesse and it's this, Jesse, I want to know for you, what's more important? Is it scouting or the actual hunts? Give me an answer and why sounds good? Mark, and I'll just touch base on what Joe said. I'm honored to be a part of these, uh the panels, So thanks for having me, man um U. That's that's kind of a no brainer. I think any serious guys um is gonna it's gonna go ahead. I would think and say scouting is the name of the game. It's kind of like, uh, you know, training as a wrestler. If if you skip your whole training season and go right to your first match, you're gonna get pummeled. If you train all preseason and going to your first match, you're you're going to walk through it. And bow hunting is no different. You've you've got to take your scouting serious, not just riding out on a forworler, but really using your head and and scouting. And I think every state has a different scouting technique, so you've got to take that type of thing into account. Yeah, scouting is the name of the game. In my books, I scout probably eight of the time and the time. Okay, Joe, what would you add? Yeah? I couldn't agree more. Um, Yet I put it this way, scouting season is three sixty five days a year in season. Out of season, you can scout. Um. Other than you know, you know some some public areas don't let you on. Other than certain times, you still cyber scout. You can think about stuff, you can look at old patterns of Vultario camp photos. That's all scouting in my book. Um. You know, hunting season, yeah, I might be a couple of months long, but still scouting seasons a lot longer. And uh, you really have to enjoy scouting, I guess to enjoy the success of kind of the d I Y style. Um, I think that's really important. Yet you know, everybody that I talked to the it is fairly successful to doing it themselves. They love to scout like scouting is just as fun, if not more fun than the actual hunt. Um. And that helps you get out there, you know, week after week. So that's what I think. All right, and Andy, how would you how would you approach this this question? Yeah, I mean I hate to sound repetitive, but I mean it's absolutely scouting. I mean, that's that's your preparation, you know, that's how you figure out, you know, what deer are there, what deer you're gonna go after. Um, you know, you're trying to, you know, find out tendencies that you know, maybe individual deer have and and plan for a kill. I mean I'd rather, I'd rather, um, be able to scout fifty days and hunt ten days rather than be able to hunt every day of the season. I mean, I'm gonna be more successful with those fifty days of scouting. In fact, like I remember, uh gosh, I think it was that a few years ago Jesse. I think he killed like three or four bucks, the big mature bucks, like big you know, poping young plus type deer on nine sits, you know. And then a couple of years ago I killed six open young bucks on nineteen sis. And you know, we we both have, you know, and and and Joe too, you know, you you have you got families with kids. I mean, we don't want to be gone the whole hunting season. I mean that's it's selfish, um, you know, for us to kind of you know, chase our dreams per se. Uh So you know, we we spread it out over the year. And we prepare, um, you know, just through scouting, and it is it's a year round deal. There's something you can do every month of the year that's going to help you in the fall. And to add to that, if I may, yeah, go ahead, I was just gonna say that. To add to that, the scouting is so much easier when you're going hunting. You have to be out early, you have to get in ahead of time. You've you've got to be sneaky when you're scouting. You are, at least for me, Um, I can jog out to a couple of different places glass in the last half hour light and see everything I need to see. I can be up way before I have to go to work, um and do all my glassing and then still be to work and and only glass for a half an hour. You can do that every day. UM. So it's not a huge investment um of time. So you know, And and that's how you can do it in different states. To you if you get it figured out, even if you can only go scout a state for three or four days, UM, it's those crucial first half hour, last half hour, you can all your connaissance. It's not a big investment of time. Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's absolutely true. The flexibility that is key with you know, I got two little kids too, so um, you know, and family obligations, they take precedence over hunting. I'm extraordinarily you know, I'm very passionate about hunting, but um being able to get out you know, Oh, I got two hours, Okay, I want to hit you know that public area that I've been meeting to scout, you know, um, or you block out like I like to hunt up and kind of northern Wisconsin to block out one three day weekend. That's what I get in the spring for scouting up their boots on the ground. Everything else has to be remote, you know. But it's flexible. I picked the weekend, you know. Yeah, And I gotta admit I kind of knew that you guys were gonna give me this answer some I've been leading you and and given that's the case when I'm when I'm most interested, because I knew that you guys are so obsessive with scouting, and because I kind of I'm guessing that's what really sets you guys apart um. What I'm really interested in is the detail how you actually scout I think when most people think scouting, they think, oh, you know, a guy walks through the woods a couple of times, see some rubs, see some scrapes, sets a stand there, or something that's kind of like your generic entry, entry level scouting session. Um, Andy, can you start us out by describing in detail how to scout like an expert? Like how to do that next level scouting? What is the scouting that you do that is making you so disproportionately successful compared to the guy that just goes out and and looks at some rubs and scrapes a couple of times. Oh man, Um, it's kind of hard to narrow that down to you know, a short time frame, and you could write a book on it. But um, like Joe said, it's a year round thing. So um, you know, right after the season starts. I'm sorry, right after the season ends is a great time to to start. You know. January for Michigan. Um, you know, I'll get right out there when there's still snow the season just ended, and I'll I'll walk all my hunting areas. You know, I'm looking for winter bending with winter betting. Um. You know, travel routes like to food sources, you know, kind of monitoring what what the crop rotations were, UM, trying to find books that survives that you know, I might be able to chase next year and zone in on um and all that to relate you know, the future late season hunting. UM. You know that's for me, that's a really important time frame because I don't I don't want to be a a rut guy, you know, and I don't want to be just an early season guy. I want to be able to be effective all year round. So I mean, you can't beat right when the season is done, you know, you get that that most recent information. Most guys kind of hang it up for a while, but you gotta get right back out there and you can get some information. So you know, when the snow melts. For me, um, I get right out there. UM, you know I'm looking for that's when all the sign is like still really visible. You know, it's four green up every trail, every skate scrape, every rub um. You know, the beds are are very visible. You know. That's when I'm looking for like individual buck beds. I'm looking for go bedding, um, you know, intersecting trails, scrapes, rud concentrations all that stuff, and I'm just trying to um, you know, put all the puzzle pieces together for like more uh effective rut sits you know, in for the next fall, and I try to find a lot of them so that you know, I can fill up a hole, you know, if I get you know, ten sits during the rud or you know, six sits. I want. I want high, high percentage spots, so you know, I'm looking for the best of the best type spot within the spot. Um. You know, those really good spots where you have a lot of things going on that are in your favor um. You know. And then I go, you know, like kind of May and June, UM, you know, I tone it back. It's a lot of fans of time. I start really hammering my archery at that time, getting dialed in UM. And then you know, once you know, kind of summer comes August, September, that's when I'm I'm trying to find those, you know, trying to find those early season patterns a buck to go after early in the season. UM. You know, So I'm running some trail cameras, I'm doing a lot of glassing, UM checking fields for you know, large tracks that sort of thing, Um, And what I mentioned before it was, you know, I think Joe has a similar strategy. But I try to find you know, five or six bucks in Michigan to go after, because you know, I'm gonna screw up for sure, I'm gonna make some mistakes on a few of them, and you know, you get you get the competition on these areas I hunter so high inevitable that other hunters are gonna push deer out. So I usually if I can find you know, five or six bucks to to go after, um, you know, then I can usually, uh tip, really find success. So on that question, Andy, Um, you mentioned that you typically have five or six different bucks that you try to find a given ear. And this this kind of goes to something I've thought a lot about a lot of the best guys that I know, that guys that don't own their own lands, guys that are finding spots either by permission or in public. A lot of people I talked to do like what you do. They have a bunch of different places to hunt. So how many different properties are you working through to try to find these five or six bucks you know here in Michigan? I mean, do you have do you have five properties, do you have fifteen properties you have permission on? Or public spots? How many different spots do you go into a year usually that you can say, okay, these are my options. Well, I'm always I'm always adding, uh, you know, spots. UM. You know, there's some a lot of people know kind of where I hunt. I don't want to give it away too much, but UM, you know there there's definitely some spots that I have I have permission on, UM. And it's it's spots that are shared with other hunters and guys. I don't know. It's kind of one of those things where you know, the landowners let people hunt. I got some spots like that. UM. You know, there's some public spots. There's some spots that are private land open to public hunting. UM. But I'm also always trying to gain new ground, um in one way or another. So I knock got a lot of doors. UM. I'm always kind of picking away at new public land spots. And you know some of the some of the areas that I used to hunt a lot UM, specifically the public areas they got hammered by h D back in two thousand twelve, and they're still still not. You know, I had to give up on them for several years because there just wasn't it wasn't any deer, uh you know, or not any not a single thing that I could locate worth going after. So I don't know they answer your question, there's a there's a lot of them. Um, you know, I'd probably say that I try to scout and monitor, you know, twelve to fifteen different areas, um, you know, and some of those are huge chunks of you know, public land. Some are tiny little private pieces. Um hunt one piece that's one acre, you know, So it's uh, you know, it's it's it's everything in between. So um yeah, I'm I try to find anywhere that I can hunt around here. There's so many guys you kind of you know, take what you can get. Yeah, okay, So Joe, Uh how about first question? How many different parcels or properties do you typically try to have? His options? And then can you detail you're scouting and what makes your scouting next level? Yeah? Um yeah, Andy hit a lot of the points I would hit. Makes my summary a little shorter, but I right now I'm right around a dozen pieces of public land that I hunt. And that's my passion hunting for my bow tag and my home state of Iowa, UM his public land UM I I you know, for my general either sex tag. I have a small acres around my house and Iowa landowners get a landowners tag, but that's not really UM. Where where my passion is, it's public land UM. And and going out where anybody else can go. UM. I can go whenever I want UM and scout and it's probably they range from you know, uh, ten to twenty acres up to you know, a thousand acres or more. UM. But really, UM, Iowa doesn't have that much public land. UM. I'm fortunate to live in a part of the state that has more than other parts, but it's still not that much. And I'm a little envious of guys who have ten thousand acres in public out their back door. That'd be pretty cool. But UM, so I'm I'm hitting you know, around a dozen also try to seek out and scout at least one new parcel a year, UM to one or two. UM. That's kind of basically publicly and never stays the same. And you kind of mentioned this, you know, you you may have d h D, you might have changes in hunting pressure. UM. A lot of the differences that I see because some of the smaller parcels, uh, you know, if it depends if there's acorns or not. UM. If there's much use by dear, they may be over here, and then another year there may be hardly any deer because they're focused on the crop fields, you know, and surrounding private properties. UM. If if that, if you say, if it's a trail corridor and there's not good setting there, um, so I it's very important to have. I don't know. My rule of thumb is kind of twice as many spots as I could hunt in a season and both you know, twice as many areas and twice as many setups in those areas I could ever hunt in the season. And I I'm focused on playing the lawn game, you know, kind of stacking odds in my favor. So I'm constantly sorting, um, what what are the best areas you know, the highest odds that you know may have target box and I'm really interested in that I think are killable versus other ones that don't look so hot, you know, And I'm I'm only hit in the top half of the top third. UM on a given a year, I'm still kind of watching those other areas. I could put boots on the ground a couple of times, and I may run a trail camera too to see how deer moving and what's around. But um, that's kind of how I really try to stack dodds in my favor. Um. And then I know mentioned kind of a scouting routine. You know, Andy hit most of the good points. One thing I would definitely add, um And I know he does this too, and talk to him. But um, in season scouting, so basically that the minute I kill I tag out, um like switch to scouting mode. Um. All my, if I had, say, any cameras set up like watching for target bucks, I might adjust those. Maybe I might adjust them, might not, betting on where they are, and I'll set them in spots. I really like to set cameras in spots and leave them soaked the whole season and just observe in really kind of high impact spots. Don't check them. I'll leave them for months on end, observe natural deer movement, and then I can review those photos and really get a very detailed understanding of what those deer doing. Um, just about every spot I have ever done that with I see distinct um favorite deer trends according to weather, maybe maybe hunting pressure and other factors um, different food sources lighting up, um, but particularly whether when can you know when temperatures hear you certain areas based on certain conditions. I am absolutely certain to that, UM. On top of you know, hunting pressure, pressure effects and everything like that. So UM, you know the rest in season scouting, the sign is red hot. You can see it as it gets laid down. You can get a jump start on that spring scouting if you tag out, like my favorite time to hunt in October and the best majority of time I tag out in October. UM, and I'm I'm switching immediately to okay, what I want to look at for next year, and then letting those trail cameras soak with the intent over the kind of the winter months. Like if you've got a big thick snowpack on the ground, Um, it's not ideal scouting out there. That's when I play catch up, you know. I just actually it's February, the second week of February right now, and I just finally UM caught up with all my trail camp photos from last fall. You know. So I had a number of cameras out just sitting there. Finally picked up the last couple, and I've been looking at those. I would always been figure out how deer are using those spots. Awesome, Jesse, what would you add as far as how many different places you have that you have access to and you're scouting. Yeah, so obviously those guys gave great answers. And one thing I would point out, all three of us, Joe, Andy and myself lived in completely different geographic areas, um, and therefore our answers are I actually might um give different answers than them and not disagree, but UM, my answers would be different because I'm hunting a completely different um the top of Rascal. Everything is different. Um. Like Andy had said, scouting and looking for mass amounts of deer in the winter, I would agree with. I love the pound it right now. This is the one time of year that you can cover ground and go places that you should not go because anything you bump, it doesn't matter. They're coming back. They're going wherever the flood sources. Now when I tom ground right now, I'm looking for sign that was November sign or October signed um or you know, obviously shed hunting, but I personally think gear are the sounds corny, But they're kind of like men um. When they're young, they're all over the place. They're goofing around there with all the you know, they're with the tribe, they're with the herd um. When they get to be older, which is what we're hunting. When I'm in my fourties, I don't really go out of the butters anymore. I'm not traveling with the masses. I kind of like to be alone. I'd like to be out my own little area in life. And they bucks are the same way. So while I'm covering ground this time of year, I'm not looking for tons of tracks, I'm looking for a giant. I'm looking for a big track. And here, um you can bump them. It's great this time of year and it's not a big deal. But here everything is going to change. So bucks that are are where they are right now, I might never see them um in the you know, in in that spot everything food source. Here, we get a lot of snow and it's really cold, and then in the summer it's gonna be you know, in the nineties, so everything really swings. UM. So I'm not afraid to walk all over the place, and personally, I'm not looking for big mass quantities of deer. Um. Those guys nailed that. I'm looking for next year's kill this year. Um. And when I scout year round, obviously, UM, you gotta study these food sources. And you've got to remember what happened last year when the when the soybeans turned, all the bus disappeared. Well, you know, they went to the soybeans. So you have to play back on your knowledge from years in the past. Um. And really, I don't take any notes. When I was a kid, I took a lot of notes, and then I found that I never go back and read them because I remember every buck from every year. Um. You know when they switched gears, when they disappeared, when they showed up. Um. I literally sit in my treuesday and think about that stuff. But I think Joe had mentioned that, you know, just just uh, you know, thinking and spending time scouting. Uh, just thinking about scouting and think about hunting. Um, remembering the change of things. UM. Scouting. The one thing I would say those guys didn't mention is at least for me, I glassed like a maniac. I stay way away from UM by hunting spots even when I'm scouting UM in the winter is about the only time I really walked through anything. UM. Having good optics and having a good tripod for your optics to be on UM and knowing that that fifteen window when animals are gonna move or where they're gonna show up. That's you have to learn that stuff. And it sounds weird, but once you kind of figure things out, it's almost like you have a sixth sense. No matter what state you go to, you'll see something and you'll just you'll know. Um, I need to beat here tonight it's six five at sunset because I gotta see what comes out of that corner. UM. Just picking up that sixth sense and making mental notes in your head from years in the past. UM. I'm not a big camera guy either, to be honest with you. UM, I like what Joe said about putting them up and leaving on and UM, I have cameras that are literally sitting out there that I put out in October and I still haven't picked him up. Yeah, I'm sure the batteries are dead, but UM, I don't know what was there and uh, and I'll know what time of day they moved and stuff. But some guys check them every week and you know they wonder why why you disappeared. You're schooling them, you know. So so you you talked about you talked about glassing, Um, what times of year are you doing that glass? And are you doing that through the entire year and monitoring deer from a distance at all times a year or is that just in season from observation stands or can you elaborate on that a little bit? But before we before we do get to the answer to these questions from Jesse, let's take a quick pause here for our white Tail Properties segment of the day and Spencer will get that started force right now. This week with white Tail Properties, we are joined by Andrew Schultz, a land specialist out of Illinois. And Andrew is going to be telling us about projecting the future of the landmarket in the Midwest. You know, I wish I will is uh able to tell the future, but um, all I can go off of is my clients and what I hear from people around me, and obviously my experience since being in this business, and the one thing that I seem to hear over and over again is that UM buyers and sellers wish they would have bought sooner, and they wish they would have bought more. And the reason for that is because if you look back at the history of land, it's appreciated so much over the years, and we expected to continue appreciating because they're not making any more land. So there's a limited supply of this stuff, and it's in high demand, and people who have never owned land before they're coming out and they're they're buying it because they understand that they're not making any more of it. So, UM can I predict five years from now, ten twenty, Not exactly, but I can predict or it's likely that land is going to continue to appreciate and you're gonna wish that you would have bought more of it and bought it sooner. If you'd like to learn more and to see the properties that Andrew currently has listed for sale, visit white tail properties dot com backslash Shultz that's s h U l t z. Yeah. So I glass NonStop. In fact, um glassing, at least in the East where I've come from. It seems like nobody glasses. UM. I glass I have a lot of spots um that are exactly what you said. They're observation stands. Um. You couldn't kill a deer out of past my stands if your life depended on it. With the boat, A lot of them are high. Um. But I can see I can see all the way around me, you know, literally a mile. I mean a lot of times I'm glassing three or four fields away, um, or three or four headrows away or or you know. And now a lot of times even if I only had ten minutes, um, if my wife. I have a wife and three kids and run my own business. So free time it's ten minutes to me is awesome. So if I can get out of here, hit the road and hit at least one of my spots in glass, um, that's five minutes of knowledge that I got that I know nobody else is doing. UM. So that that's huge. And having very good optics UM is important. And having a very good tripod if you're from the ground, having steady glass it's amazing. It'll make marginal bunoculars look better. So buy a good tripod and buy a good tripod head um if that's all you can afford, And then someday when you can swing a little more money, get yourself some high end optics, and you will. I think my Swarovski's when I bought them, they were like eighteen hundred bucks and everybody thought I was nuts. But they're like fifteen years old. There's still amazing and they're still probably worth tars now. And I would have bought three or four other sets of junk three bunoculars. So having good optics, I took up on so much stuff that that I know nobody's that people aren't seen, and it's it's really like cheating. I almost feel like got cheated with my optics because it's it's you can look through the woods with them. It's it's great. That's a that's that's a great time. I would I would ree. One other kind of tip that you mentioned is tracks. Um that's something that I didn't really mention, but it's a huge component of what I'm doing all year long. I'm looking at tracks, and I know I've got subcomment. It's like some people are very skeptical that you can I d and individual Bucks tracks, but I have been looking at the hooves of Big Bucks for quite a while now, and a big, mature fully mature buck is not very common anywhere, um, on anywhere that gets any significant hunting pressure. Um, there's not many of them, and usually their tracks stand out. UM they're busy pawing and fighting, and you know Jason does. And there are a lot of times chipped up, cracked up whatever. They're usually big, not always, but usually much bigger um square. You know, they're fairly distinctive. So my alternating goal, Yeah, it's to find you know, I d that bucks track, you know, um, and you know, hopefully I say, I am scouting in the winter and jump him out of a bed. I'm looking at that bed, I'm looking at that track, you know. Um. And once I have that, that's a huge puzzle piece because then um, I know, you know, and this kind of shows the differences creeen each of us. I don't do that much glassing. Um. I used to do a ton of glassing. In frankly, I don't do that much anymore. For us, like, I don't have that much. I just don't find myself having a whole lot of free time in the evening. Um. But what I found is in the farm country deer that a lot of what I hunt. I'm able to walk the edges of you know, crop fields and look for tracks, and then that's kind of you know, it's kind of equivalent to grassing. Glassing. I can see where the deer coming in and going out, and do that in mid day, do a quick loop, don't get anywhere near bedding. I'll do that all summer long and all uh, you know, just trying to figure out where those tracks. Those tracks are probably made at night. But then I can get in a lot, you know, a direction to travel, and if I did my homework previous winter scouting, I can say, you know, well I need to hunt that betting area a quarter mile back, you know, or you know, half a mile away. I think that's where he's betting. So how about this one, um, Jesse, you kind of eluded a little while back. Maybe it was Andy talking about Jesse, Um that you were killing several different bucks year after year in a row, like the first day of this season, right towards the beginning of the season. Um. So I want to talk about different times of the year. Um, And we'll try to make this a little bit simple. If you could only pick one week of the whole year. If I said that you had to kill him ture buck. Your life depended on it, and you had only one week of the season to do it. And what one week period would that be? And Joe, let's let's send it right back to you to start. Um, Well, assuming I'm on my home turf areas that I've scouted already. Um, it's the last week October for me. Um, that's kind of my bread and butter I've killed. I'm pretty sure I've killed a mature buck in every week of the season, Like we go from October one, then in November, and then of course we have late season two and I've had success then, but you know, basically October November, I'm pretty sure I've had it, has success every week of the season that last week October. Um, it's just bos are still pretty pannable. They're a little more visible they are on these pre rough patterns. Um, They're they're kind of seeking out that first dough that smells right in the first old does are just you know, getting close, Um, And that buck isn't necessary isn't cruising around for probably you know, through the day, but you can catch him at first and last light. Um. On these on these kind of rut travel routes, already checking out the dough betting areas, checking out the major food sources UM, and basically using his rough bedding. And that's what I'm targeting. It's it's rock bedding, UM. And that's it's usually I don't want to say it's got a lot of sign um but um because every bucks difference and a lot of older bucks don't leave hardly any sign. But it's. Uh. If you look at enough bedding locations and buck beds, you start to realize some are clearly located with the intent of keeping an eye on the doors in the area. UM. And those light up so consistently in late October. I mean I just I just see it every single year, and I wait for you know, whatever conditions all betting is still, you know, conditional favor of certain winds, certain temperatures. UM. I wait for those conditions. I don't touch. You know, I may not have set foot anywhere near I probably didn't set foot anywhere near there since from the you know, since spring when I picked a set up nearby and I'm going in there and hitting that UM. Ideally I know there's that big buck in the area, either from those tracks, maybe stuff from some you know, trail camp photos over the course of the year. UM, and that's that's kind of my go to go to time. So what can you elaborate? But can you elaborate on the what you call the rut betting So what what would what would a rut betting area look like for a buck as opposed to where you might find him the rest of the year. Yeah, so UM, some so this gets a little into individual box some some books. Well I'll start this the boldest box in general have the smallest core areas. You know, there's there's outliers, there's some that rove around UM. And within that core area, he's got UM. You know, a certain number of locations that he prefers to bed UM seek safety, that's his primary concern. But UM, in that time period right in the pre rout he is likely to use you know, he won't sacrifice safety hardly at all, but he will favor the locations that are closest to UM, like a dope family group betting UM. And and for instance in hill country, something I've noticed is uh what I didn't coin this term, but it's called a thermal hub. So thermal hubs are where kind of thermal spool um. So you can have kind of a low thermal hub where several like several drainages tied together, and the falling thermals in the evening come down from those, uh say, three three drainage, three small drainages tied together, falling thermals come down from each of those, and kind of pool in a central area. And a lot of time you'll see a ton of sign down there. Robson's grapes gets it gets torn up. Well often you can't hunt down there, but that buck is dropping in there and sent checking the surrounding area to see, you know, what's what with the does in the area in that late October time frame and a little bit into the rout um. And I basically he's betting very he's often betting at a secondary point right next to there, maybe a low bench. You can find those buck heads right in that close proximity. Um. And it's in a location that he cannot you know, observe with his nose, which is their primary you know, you know, it's equivalent to our eyesight. We believe what we see. A deer believes what he smells. Um. He wants to be able to observe what is around um and uh so that so that it's hard to describe beyond If you see, uh, you know, a big bed maybe with you know, an old rub right above it, it's in a very secure location, that just makes you scratch your head and say, I don't know how to hunt this. Um. That's probably an indicator. That's a really secure location. And a big buck, if he's in that area, is probably going to use that bed. And if it's close to say, uh, you know a hunter and fifty yards up the ridge or whatever is a megat betting area, well that bed is probably getting used in the late pre rud you know. That's that's how I kind of look at it. I think it was a great point that Joe said. And you don't hunt that spot. You can't even though you know that deer is there, those thermal there's a reason why he's there, and people sign that sign and hang a stand there and they screwed up. Don't hunt those spots, but know how to get you know, get get close to those spots without screwing it. How would you how would you you want to use you want to do use that to your advantage, you know, like that's that's a great point. You know, yeah, just because you can't hunt a spot, you can still use it to your vantage. So anyway, go on, No, I was just it was a great point that you said, Um, you know, you can't hunt those spots, and so many people don't have the discipline to not hunt that spot. You blast that spot. You know that spot is there, and when you see those those up end of that spot, you you and you can't find that buck. You know he's probably using the area that you scouted. And you try and hunt the periphery of that with the wind in your favor at all times, and when that wind switches you get out of there. But you try and get lucky and cutty moss um, but you never hunt those spots. And for Joe to make that comment, um, that's that's the sign of a killer. He knows. He knows that you don't go in there where a lot of people would never make that comment that it's an unhunable spot. That's smart. Yeah, that's all right. So Jesse, how about back to the original question. You get one week of the season, what is it? Yeah, so u Joe kind of had mentioned it as well. It depends on the state. If it's my home state, UM, I like to I like to do my homework way ahead of time, and I like to kill them fast. I like to kill them. We have a lot of pressure here. We have small black woods and we have a lot of agriculture, so, um, these guys can screw up the woods real quick. And everybody here hunts, so there's a ton of pressure. Um. I like to get get the job done. Um. Everybody says, oh, there's an October lull. Well that's good. I hope they stay out of the woods because all I need is is that last fifteen minutes of light or that or that first forty minutes of light when they're going back into the bedding grounds. I really try and do my homework and my home state and I try and get them killed. And um, New York where I live, this is not a huge trophy state. It's not like I'm I'm trying to kill a booner here. Um, I'm trying to kill a good respectable you know. One class year was like killing a one eight in Iowa. So it's it's not like I'm too worried that. Um. You know, if I tell you a hundred forty, and I'm not gonna be sad that there was a one eight here but I didn't get I'm not worried about that. So I'm killing my home state buck. I'm not hunting up a world class place, and I'm getting out of here as fast as i can and going to um Ohio or Kansas, Illinois. UM. And truthfully, if I was the hunt out of state, any out of state guy, but you don't have the knowledge um of the ground the way the way Joe does in Iowa or Andy in Michigan. UM. My advice would be going November, getting your truck November five, November six, start driving, try and be in a standard in a glassing point November seven, and hunt sun up to sundown for the next seven In the ten days, you can sleep and relax and drinker the rest of the year, but for those seven to ten days, punish yourself and you will kill a giant. Maybe not a giant, but if you're healing out of state and don't know where you're at, punish yourself for those seven to ten days. Keep your eyes open all the time, and those are your best odds for a non resident Um. If I talked to some of my other buddies who are world class guys, um, they will say, Um, the end of the rut, the end of November is when the true giants show up because they've bred everything in their circle and they're starting to cruise around looking for other unbred dose. Um. So for an average guy like me, I'm happy to kill one sixty November seven, November fourteenth to the eighteenth. Um, that's when I want to be out of state for out of state hunting in your home state. You know. Uh, it all comes down to what you see. But for me, I like that first week there, there's there's like eight ups together. Um, they're all hitting fluid sources. If you see one buck, you're seeing every book in the block and you're gonna be able to pick the one you want. So I like, I like that for for me, that's great advice. That's great advice about you know, the differentiation between your backyard where you're tiled in and going in somewhere new or even somewhere you've done a little bit of scouting. Uh, yeah, you're you're a spot on there. You know, peek rutt is where it's at. If you want to go in somewhere new and you know, try to get the job done, especially you know, at a long distance from home. Right, Thanks Andy, What are your thoughts on this? You got your one week? Which is it? Yeah, you know, I'm gonna echo what what Jesse said, you know for me, Um, specifically in Michigan. You know, it's hard for me to pick something other than that first week at the season. Um, I've been pretty successful. UM. I definitely don't kill one every year on the first week, but UM, I've killed enough of them, and I've I've been on enough mature deer and I've had opportunities that enough mature deer on that first week for that to really be my favorite time. UM. And I know things can kind of come into play, like you know, weather and all that, but just the uh, you know, if I do my work and my due diligence in September, I should be on a good one that first few days of the season. If I'm not, I didn't work hard enough and I didn't prepare and I slacked. So I really love that time. Um. In fact, I've I've started doing a lot of my traveling out of state just to hunt opening days. Um. You know, I try to never miss the opening day in Ohio, and I've been successful opening day there. Um. Same with Kentucky. Um killed a couple down there in the first few days of the season. So I really like that time the deer unpressured. Um, they're they're moving. You can you can still catch them on food sources. Uh, not so much in Michigan. But when I as soon as I crossed those lines, you know, food sources are fair game now in Michigan. Um, yeah, I can't even. I don't know that I've ever killed a deer on a food source here, a mature deer. Um. I'd have to really look back through through the hunts. But I'm I'm almost always tight to betting. Um, I'm the big mature deer. Um, I gotta get in in the cover. The the food sources are loaded with hunters, so um. You know I usually have to get in tight. Um. But I really like that October time frame. Um. You know, even mid October, like Jesse said, you know, if you know what you're doing, UM, you know you're still on deer at that time frame. You just you really have to, you know, fall back on your scouting and your knowledge of the area and what mature deer do at that time. But when I'm traveling out of state, UM, I almost never hunt the rut here in Michigan. UM. I might get a sit or two, UM, but that's usually when I'll take a trip to when I draw my Iowa tag or you know, I've been to Illinois and Iowa and UM, like Jesse said that November you know, for me, it's probably that November five six time frame to the twelfth. That's when I seem to see the biggest mature bucks on their feet and where I've had a lot of success, tons of midday kills. UM. I really like that time frame. UM. You know, to to travel to a good you know, a state that has you know, a more target rich environment, I guess. And I've never um, I've never hunted anywhere um during that Thanksgiving time UM with a bow. You know, I've I've been to states where their gun season is open. But that's something that is kind of, you know, possibly in the works, especially Iowa tag. I might focus on that time, UM, because I'd really like to kind of extend my season and maybe you know, focus a little more Russets here in Michigan. But um, those would probably be my two my two favorite times, you know, times of the year. You know, if I had to if I had to choose a week or so, um, it would probably be somewhere in those two time frames. Yeah, that that would be wise, Andy common Die. Um. You know if both of you touched on that. The second half of that brought you know, right at as lockdown let's loose. Um, the kind of it depends where you're in Iowa, but really from November sixteen, seventeenth, that's when lockdown starts to kind of um fall away and for the next week to ten days. Um, that that is your opportunity to see that world class year walking around doing something really dumb because he's just war out and he's looking for you know, one last dough and that that can be the downfall of him. So um, and that's such a cool at that time period, I think that was an invite, didn't Did Joe just not invite us? Yeah? He did said that would be a great idea for you guys to come to. You know, that's a Joe, it's a it's such a cool opportunity. Um. You know, there's very few states that have that time frame still open when it's archery season. And you know, I've never capitalized that. I kind of kicked myself, you know. You know once guns season starts here, it's like, you know, I just don't get out. I don't. I don't really enjoy that as much. Um. I'll get out a little bit here and there, but you know, it's kind of, let's the the wind out of my sales. So I'm always looking for ways to and extend that archery season. And I think I think I could get in a couple other uh you know, maybe a couple of other states, or at least some more time in other states and still be able to you know, hit Iowa at a good time if I push it back towards that later part of Novada. Yeah, you have to be a little more dialed into what the deer doing, so like blasting or observations that those are. That's more important than ever before because a lot of times the weather is colder, uh, the does or stock you know, piled up on the prime food sources, whether it's acorns or cup corn or you know whatever, um, and you but you find those big dough concentrations the boxer circle in the background. Um, they're still you know, they've still got that that urge. So um yeah, it's it's uh. I remember you when you last time you drew an IOA tag, you had a lot of you had some action packed unts in late November, if I remember right. So yeah, yeah, definitely I'm I'm the agenda. So we just talked a little bit late in November. I was gonna ask you, Joe, to elaborate on how you're hunting that time frame, but you just did so not I want to go to the opposite and both you Andy and Jesse mentioned that first week of the season, and um you said, Andy that if you did your due diligence in September you'd have a good chance. Um, can you elaborate on how you actually go about doing that due diligence to allow for successful early season hunt? And what do you do specifically those first couple of days of this season in a spot that have made that so successful for you? Um? Well, you know, I I will definitely uh do a lot of glassing, you know that for for you know, to be specific. I don't I don't waste a ton of time glassing like in August, I do it because I enjoy it then. But for what I've found is, you know, there's can be a lot of things that change, you know, between in August and say mid September or even late September. So I'll do it a little bit here and there in August. Um you know, I'm definitely running cameras and stuff and kind of monitoring that way. But um, you know, more so when the season gets closer, you know, that two week period before the season, that's when I really start bearing down. I'm like, you know, now the deer are in more of a pattern that's at least closer to the season. Now, a lot of times things change, like right even you know, a couple of days before the season. But I'm really trying to find a buck or two that is showing some sort of movement, you know, and you know I might glass them on a food source you know, at last light. Um, but you know where I hunt. You know, those food sources are gonna there's gonna be guys there. There's gonna be guys there on you know, opening evening, no doubt about it. Um So more so, I really you know that the areas that I hunt, I no intimately I mean, I know him inside and out. I know where the doose bed when there's a good buck there, I know where the mature buck beds are. So when I see a deer show up, and it might be a visual natural camera, it might be just a big track. When I'm walking the perimeter of the food sources, you know, I have a pretty good idea of where that deer is betting on a given locate, on a given wind direction. You know. So I've tind to fall back on all my scouting that I did in the you know, in the postseason, you know, before a green up, um, you know. So I just I feel like I just know those areas so well. When a deer does show up, I have a pretty good idea how to get him. Now. You know, there's always things that kind of come up and change, and uh, you know, you get caught flat footed sometimes, But for the most part, if one shows up and he shows a weakness early in the season, I'm usually off the food source fighter to betting cover. Um. You know, that could has been within fifty yards of the betted deer, it's been within a hundred yards. It just depends. But to typically um from what I've seen, even in a high pressure state like Michigan, if you can get back into that security cover, into their their their core area, their betting area where they feel comfortable, where they've survived for years and years, they will move. Now. They might not move far, but they'll move and they'll get up and they'll you know, mill around a little bit and they'll you know, inch their way away from that betting area. And you've got to be within that zone and that safe zone where they feel safe. You know, that's the whole balancing act of you know, a bug out of his bed. You've got to determine how close you can get without being busted. And that's the key. You got to get in without getting busted. But you want to be close enough where they're still gonna move in daylight, you know, in shooting hours, towards your direction. And it's a it's a it's a difficult thing to kind of master, and I certainly haven't mastered. I certainly screwed up a lot. But that's how I kill the majority of my bucks in October. You know, I'm tight within the bedding within a hundred yards for sure. Yeah, Yeah, Andy, that's uh. Even here in Iowa. You know, I have not killed a public land buck on a food source in two days. So, um, it just doesn't happen or you know, UM, where you got to get it done is tight to betting. That's that's for sure. It did. That depends on pressure. It also depends a little bit on terrain, I think, UM, you know here, Yeah, I know I don't have the pressure that you guys deal with. UM, but still I'm within two hundred yards of betting. You know, it's hard in Hell country. It's hard to get within a hundred yards very often. UM. It covers a lot of times a little more open and we have high deer densities, so there's deer everywhere. And that's another challenge, is just trying to not that's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah. I don't have a lot of hill country here at all, but you mentioned something high deer density. I've hunted some very five gear density areas out of state. UM, and you know, one thing I noticed there is that the deer um, you know, at least in that area, they would move quite far from betting. Um. You know, they're the groups of dose And like these younger books that would start moving very ear at least they got all these kind of sets of eyes that are heading towards the food cources early. And then these these big bucks. You know, it's it's kind of almost like a you know, they're sending out the dummies, you know early, and if you know, the whole herds is out there town any at the food source, those big ones get up and we saw some really good deer and shot a couple really good deer in food sources kind of those lower pressure states you know, you know, on a food source, and it's just the competition is so high it just it stimulates earlier movement. But the trick is you gotta stay undetected from all those you know, dozens and dozens of deer that come by first. Jesse, would you add anything on the early season front or elaborate on this, you know, how close he can be two beds or anything that Joe and you have talked about here. Yeah, those guys nailed UM. They made great points, especially being that um this platform you have with three different guys in three different areas, you're really getting three different UM techniques in two different styles, which is actually good. I think it's really good to your listeners. Um, I would, I would. Uh. The only thing I would touch base on what they said is like, where I'm from, we have a lot of hedgerows, big agriculture and small blackwoods. So, um, you really, I really like killing my home state deer. I mean truthfully, I like killing them. If I can get them killed the first day to maybe three days, that's that's my goal. And I will put even if I got to take those three days off. That's when I try and get it done. Um. They haven't been screwed up yet most guys. Um. That's when guys are gonna you know, guys are gonna start bombarding the woods. Um. One thing I study along with all the deer sign as I study the hunter sign. Um. I a lot of these guys don't take down any other stands. UM. So I use these guys. Um. They will literally pattern the deer for you because you can tell when these guys start hitting the woods, because the deer's patterns will change. I try to kill these dear one before they before they change. Um. And if I can glass a shooter buck um, I like to see. I don't care if I got to kill him in the morning. Or evening, and if I know where he's at, Like obviously I have hung stands and betting grounds. However, I always have seven or eight sets of stands that are ready to go with foot pegs and with pull up cords, ready to rock, and a lot of times I will stage these stands just in the you know, on the edge of the woods on the ground. I know it sounds crazy, but that way, Um, if I know where a buck is at and he's betted, and I think he's you even know the ground. If I think, all right, I can sneak in this woods. I think there's deers bed a hundred and took the yards on the on the you know, northwest or I'm sorry, northeast corner, so you can wind everything. Um, I'm gonna try and slip in there, um and hanging stand thirty yards inside the woods. Um, I'm gonna glass him even before the season starts. I'm gonna glass him. If um, if I'm not seeing him, I'm gonna have another stand and I'm gonna go another thirty forty yards. I know it sounds stupid, but I will literally have four or five stands and I'll just hang him and keep cheating in and I won't take any of them down because if the wind isn't right, or the wind is a little more out of the south, I can drop back and I'm not screwing anything up. Uh. And then usually for an evening hunt that those would be obviously for morning hunts in the woods. Um. And I killed numerous deer where I've gone in glassed him on a morning hunt and I thought, man, if I was just sixty yards closer. Um, they'll go in and bed and a lot of times I'll back out. I know, res betted, And if I think the wind is right, I'll go for a throw and hang a stand right in where it's a horrible spot. Um that every year after they get past me, is gonna wind me. Um. That's when you've got to be really confident to do that. And you gotta know, Okay, I'm I'm either gonna kill him or blow him out. And I would say, which is kind of crazy, but seventy at the time, if I make that move, I kill him, and if I don't, usually I don't blow him out. He spooked because every year that's going past me is snorting and blowing. He doesn't know what happened. I don't care what the other dear. I think I'll back out. I'll slip out of there and I won't do that again. I'll circle back in the next morning and start all over again. If he if that buck goes by me, he getting shot and by the time he wins me, he's dead. So yeah, he doesn't know what's going on. But that's a that's how I do it here. Um. But I like that early season and if you work hard at it and you really you play chess with it and really think you aren't smart. I mean, I know people like to think. I just people off of that comment, but you're not smart. They're an animal. They're they're a habitual animal. They have wonderful, um natural sense of smell. They have great eyes, and they have great hearing. They're not smart. We are smart. So if you can just study their natural reactions, you're going to kill them. So don't site yourself out when you're hunting the beer. It's an animal. You're going to kill them. You just have to be smarter than them, and we are smarter than them. Yeah, you're you're a spot on and that I really like how you said you gotta go in with you know you're gonna kill or blow them out. And that is a trait I've noticed, you know, you you you have it. I noticed other other you know, hardcore killers have it. And that is a mentality you have to have. You know, you have to set the groundwork, have that confidence, and then you go in mentality because otherwise you hang back, you know, and you miss an opportunity. And early things particularly, you've got to be right on it. Both you and Andy mentioned that you know, the patterns changed so fast those first few days that uh, that's right. Everything changed, the crafts changed, the people's pressure change. Um. And you know, Joe, the only reason I learned that you gotta learn by mistakes. The only reason I learned that I used to kill big deer with just grit, just hunting. Before I had kids, I hunted non stop, and I found it trusty. I wasn't really efficient. Um I killed big deer just by being a tough, NonStop, relatively smart hunter. But once I had kids in my own business, UM, I took more chances. I thought, you know what, I don't have time. I can't hunt it for the next four days because I've got the kids. I gotta get him off to school bus. I'm going for this buck tonight. I think everything's right. Screw it. I don't care if I screwed up, and all of a sudden it was like, drill them and I take more chances now and do the career easiest stuff. I killed some deer in the dumbst tree stands. I'm not a very big guy, only way a hundred fifties sixty pounds. I have killed deer out of stands that I've carried in there, climbed up the tree, hung it and literally said in it that night in a sumac tree that's the size of my thigh, and shot the best bucks around. But you've got to take calculated risks. Yeah, you're you're exactly that's right. That's exactly my story too. You know, once I started having kids, you know, yeah, I grew up hunting sixty you know, bow hunts in a year. That's long thing in the past, and I'm not going to be getting back to that anytime soon, if ever. Um. And now, yeah, I want you know, I want my target buck and under ten hunts, you know. Um, And that's uh, You've got to do so much groundwork before that and when the time is right, you have to just go all in, you know, I that in the edge of a mile field and kill the hunter and ten pointer on the ground. You know, something ridiculous. He was he was gonna bust me for four times out of five, you know, or two times out of three. But he didn't, and I got an arrow with him. You know, so um that you gotta and and to get to that point, you know, it's a journey. You can't skip to that point, you know, like I think all three of us we needed a huge amount of time out there just to kind of build that basic woodsmanship, you know, basic understanding of how dear you know, operate and the phases of their you know, the season as deer see it, and what hunting pressure means, and you know the good access routes, and you know how to play the wind and just all the fundamentals. It's so important you gotta, you know, for the younger and newer hunters out there, just enjoy that ride and then you'll get to a point where you can start making some of those decisions. You know, I don't mean that in any kind of arrogant sense. It just takes time. You know, it takes a ton of time to master, so you can't you can't you can't buy that that time. You know, I think, I hope I may have touched that, touched on that in my my d I Y, but you know, I think like you'd be hard pressed to find a guy that's been hunting a long time, that's been super successful that you know, like I said, at at some point in his life he devoted everything to hunting. I mean it literally, you know, every day of the year. He was doing something scouting, hunting every day of the season and making a ton of mistakes, and you've you've got to kind of go through those. It's like trial by fire. You kind of got to go through that to develop your own style, to develop your own skill, and then as it develops, you can you can back off, you can hunt much less. But the you know, the preparation is where it's all done. You know, all the scouting, all the archery, you know, fine tuning your set up, learning your areas and and you know intimately and learning the you know, specific dear from year to year and their tendencies. Then you're able to make these much more uh informed decisions. I call them almost instinctual because you you've done it so many times, You've made these mistakes and you you have eliminated them, so you make far less mistakes and things almost come like I'm a I'm a I describe myself as like a field hunter. I get like these feelings, and all it is is a just recall of experiences that I've had over and over again and mistakes and successes that you know, you get these feelings like this is the spot, you know, or I need to push in a little bit further. I think I can push in a little bit further and you get these feelings in which you find is over time, these feelings are right more and more often because you've you've tried to you're not sitting back, you know, being you know lazy or you know you're you're being aggressive and you're making those those moves and you're learning, you're learning what you can get away with, your learning what you can't, and you're developing your own style. And it's just you have to go through that. Yeah, And I feel I feel I feel bad for some of these guys that you know kind of joined the beasts and they're already married and they're you know, I you know, maybe in their mid thirties and they already got kids and stuff, and they have the heart, you know, they want to they want to do it, and it's that you know, really it's like, you know, that's those young guys that you know, they're in high school and you know, just out of high school and they're just pounding away at this and they're developing, you know, their craft and and honing their skills, and don't you need that time? And when you're married with kids, it's like, you know, it's it's it's really hard to do it at that time because you know you're taking away from someone that's much more important, you know than being a good deer hunter. So guys could also those guys can also everybody has a different um success platform um and going out finding a even if even if all you're finding and you know, if in your state a one twenty is a good deer and you can fire a decent deer. If you can find a one twenty and you don't have a lot of time and you can figure that beer out and you can put a clean shot on that deer, you should be proud of that, dear. If you know especially if you're raising a couple of kids. That's my my trophy standards have gotten lower. Um. And because of that, you know, because of the lack of the time. However, when I kill something now, it just so much sweeter, um than the Baiblins I killed fifteen years ago, because um, you know, I killed him with blood, sweat and tears before and now I'm killing the quick clean knowledge. And even though those guys, you know, you don't want to tell those guys that if you're thirty five and you're just now taking it serious, um, you're really never gonna be an elite guy. That's that's not true. I mean everybody's eliteness is different, you know, like I will never be at Joe's caliber. Like I'm I'm not, Um, I'm hunting a different hunting a different you know. It's just a different world, state, different different that. Yeah, yeah, no, and it's but I'm very proud of it. Sounds stupid. I've got some you know, some big deer um, and I'm very proud of them that are from other states. Kansas, in in Arizona, in Montana, um. And I'll tell you there's a couple of hundred and ten incres a hundred that are on my floor that are skull mounts that are the biggest trophies, and they came from them from working hard and hard to kill states. So everybody's trophy is different. And if you did a good job and you're enjoying it, um, it really isn't a It sounds stupid, but it is about telling big stuff. But those guys can't feel bad if you're just taking it serious at thirty five and got three kids. Man, go out and live for the moment, even if you only get five cents. Breathe that air. That that's whole air, and and take the whole thing in uh and do the best you can. You can't compare yourself to um, you know everybody else You've You've got to try and beat yourself every year and be happy with that. That's yeah, because we we really we we all get and I'm bad at I've been bad at this. This big buck thing kills all of us. I mean, it will eat you up and you will become consumed, and sometimes you don't even enjoy it. I've got buddies all over the country. They're legit, they're like they're they're world class. Guys um and they'll get so they're passing up one eighties because they know there's a you know, at to eleven and it's like, dude, you're killing yourself and that's why they're world class guys. But don't, don't, don't get down on yourself killing and fifty at your enjoy it. That's a great buck and and be happy. You know. Yeah, absolutely, man oh man, I am, I am loving this conversation. But we are going to hit pause for one quick second here to take our final break of the day and think our partners at Matthew's Archery. And as we've been discussing over a handful of our past episodes, Matthews launched their new bow this past fall, the Matthews Try Acts, and today we're gonna hear just a bit more about the new rig from world class archer Levi Morgan. You know, the tracks was I think originally built for the white tail hunter tree stand blinds, so compact and uh quiet, but you know, on my adventure arounts, what I found is I love it for everything. I love it for mountain hunts, white tail hunts, tree stand blind it doesn't matter because I love the idea of a compact bow UM, but I only love that idea if I'm not sacrifice and accuracy, and with the tracks, I definitely found out real quick that I wasn't i' is good at shooting bows I've ever shot in my life. It's it's fast and quiet and so small, dead in the hand. Literally it's killing machine. And pretty much every scenario we put it through, and we put it through the test last year, a lot of other people I have talked to have just mentioned how quiet is how this new UM stabilizing system and the silencers are making a big impact. Is that something you've noticed too, and is that substantially different than other BOWSY shot? Yeah, I think I've I've learned that for sure throughout the year. I honestly knew it was quiet whenever I shot it. But what we really was kind of the telltale sign was we started, you know, I was hitting animals lower and lower than in the heart because I always aimed low because of white tails ducking on me in the past, and so I've just kind of programmed myself to aim low, and I just kept hitting them right rather aiming and the heart, and which is a good thing, but I felt like I was flirting with being a little too low. So we started going back through the footage this year and it was an amazing at how these animals were just standing there yards taking these shots um with the tracks and not budgeting at all. So I think that was a true testament to how quiet these bows really are. If you'd like to learn more about the Matthews tracks, you can visit Matthews Inc. Dot com. And now back to the show. So when you're when you're making this switch, because we've talked a lot about all three of you, and I just want to say the last like twenty minutes you guys have been talking back and forth has been like some of my most enjoyable time on the podcast. Like I should just let you guys just sit here and talk and I should just sit out of it and not say anything. Well, we're going to Iowa in November. You can come in video we're gonna do. I like that. I like that idea, you guys draw tag Let me know, yeah, the same here man, you could come to New York any time. Trade right, So sore where you guys are talking a lot about these lessons that you've learned. The hard way though, um, and how it took those those challenges for you to now be where you're at at this point. Can each of you, and let's start with you, Andy, Um, can each of you point to a specific challenge that you had as you've been through this journey to become a better hunter for these big mature bucks, So a specific challenge that really changed the game for you. You have this aha moment because of this realization or this issue. Um, Andy, can you start on something like that? Sure? Um, yeah, I mean there's a few, uh, you know, one that stands out is you know, mature deer are are different right there. Not uh, They're not like every other deer in the woods. And that's that's where most guys, probably your most average guys, that's probably where you know they miss step right off the bat. You know, they want to see dear you know, they see you know five, you know, five or six bucks. You know they're coming back in and they're they're bragging about it, or they're they're excited. You know, I saw three point in the six point and the point. You know, a bunch of does and you know that's all fine and dandy, but really a mature deer is a different animal, um, and they behave different they have different tendencies, and that's you gotta you gotta make that switch, um, you know, the hunting a mature deer and really uh kind of learning the tendencies of the mature deer, at least in the area you're hunting. And that's obviously you know, different for different areas. But you know, for for me, Michigan, I'm gonna kind of focus on that. It's you know, I've always had to kind of get close and they're they're close to their betting area and uh, you know, really kind of fine tune that strategy. Um, you know, just getting in tight where they feel comfortable moving in daylight. Um. You know, in the next thing, I would probably say like timing. You know, You've I've wrote a couple articles about you know, my first sit, you know, in any location is my best chance at the mature buck. And that's I've shown that time and time again through my own hunts. I think of my kills are on the very first sit in that spot. So you know what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to save those spots, my high percentage spots for when the conditions are right when they're perfect, um, you know, and that might be the time of year, it might be uh, you know, the time of year where that area tends to draw in a mature dear. It might be a mature dear his tendency in that area, like he he shows up you know, early season or maybe you know it's an area where he every year he shows up during the rut. So I'm gonna focus my sits during that time. Um. So just keeping the pressure level off those spots and moving in when the conditions are right. Um. And then you know, for me, I've talked about it a couple of times. Um, but you've got to be able to pull that shot off on on that deer and you gotta eat you. I'm sure we all know. Um, we probably have a buddy. We probably have a few of them that would have an amazing wall of bucks if they were able to capitalize on the shot. So I know, I do, um, you know, And I know they're gonna listen to this, and and and you know I'm not poking fun at all. I've I've tried to to help you know, most of them through that because I went through it, you know, there was um most of the times. Yeah, you know for me, you know, I'm kind of an archery nut, so you know, I'm I'm into archery as I am into hunting, so I I you know, somewhere in the middle of my career, I developed severe target panic, UM crazy like to the point where I was I couldn't even put my pin on something without punching off that trigger. And I remember I remember calling Jesse one year and I was like, I don't know if you remember this, Jessie, but I called you. I was like, gosh, you know, I think I screwed up on like three big Bucks in like a two week period, and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so frustrated. And you know, you had like an amazing here he killed that giant in Dansas and you're like, man, I don't I don't know what to say. I feel bad because you could hear you know. It's I was just I was just looking for you know, I was trying to get some advice on like, you know, maybe someone that has been through that. But it didn't sound like you had. But I've never had it. I've always heard of it. I don't believe in that stuff. I don't listen to other people. I don't let people get in my head. I don't even want to listen to this. I've been talking my finger in my ear the whole time. No start started talking about something else. Yeah, yeah, but you got you gotta. I don't even I don't even think about it. But for me, you know, that was a huge challenge. UM, when I worked through it, Um, you know, I I talked to a lot of guys, a lot of good archers, and you know, I developed a you know, my own way of shooting, you know, and it kind of beat that target panic and for me, it's a much more relaxed way of shooting. There's no anticipation, there's no urge to rush the shot. I'm in complete control. So ever since then, UM, I can say like my shots have all been you know, on the money, and and you know, it's a wild animal, so you know, they move sometimes things aren't always perfect, and there's branches and twigs and whatnot. But you know, as far as my shot execution, it's where I wanted to be. And and uh, you know that was that for me personally, was a big challenge. But I would say those three things you know, kind of some challenging and some you know, you know, I guess stepping stones that kind of helps me be more successful. It's great. What about you, Jesse, I hit me with a question. Again, we got so off on that. Yeah. So so I'm just curious about what, you know, if there was a specific challenge or AHA moment that happened over the course of your you know, growth as a deer hunter that has made a big difference for you that you can point to. Ah. Yeah, I would say, um, you know, I think everybody does have an AHA moment um and I would say, um, I definitely did when I was probably you know, I grew up um, just a pretty humble farm kid. And really my dad was a good hunter, but he was a meat hunter like I. Actually, I don't think my dad has ever killed a buck. He's literally, um, he was always just go out. He's a woodsman, kill rabbits, kill woodchucks, tom fox everything, you sell a pelt, you live out the land type of guy. He's not a trophy hunter. So I just grew up um, and it really turned out good for me. I grew up just truthfully, just a murderer, just just knowing how to move, when to move, when not to move, and kill stuff. Um. My parents divorced when I was really young, so I didn't see my dad a lot. Um. And really one of my jobs that my mom's was, you know, just just kill stuff, just get stuff killed. Um. So you know, when I was probably twenty, I would say I had killed, you know, luckily a couple of decent box but nothing big and I and they weren't calculated kills. They were a kid walking out to a tree sitting in it because his dad sat there thirty years ago. Uh. And one day I was sitting in a tree, and um, I had seen a good deer in this area, and I thought, why is this deer not here? You know, I'm doing everything. Yeah, my dad taught me, I'm doing everything that everybody tells me to do, and I'm just having average success. And then I realized, like, I'm literally sitting here listening to everybody else's advice, and um, I kind of I it was actually good when I kind of had a fallen out with my dad, so I kind of took everything he had ever said to me in my life and I questioned it and I thought, you know what I got to start evaluating everything and take my own knowledge in my own notes. And I literally remember the moment I grabbed my bow, looked onto it, I lowered it, and I walked out of the woods. And I realized right away I had been walking into this woods the way my dad taught me to. Um, we would park the truck on this laneway, walk all the way down this hedgerow with the wind that are act and then walk into the woods and sit in a tree. This is stupid. And I realized right then, like, he's not really that great at a hunter. He's a gun hunter. Um. And right then I started studying how things work. And I literally can't even tell you the confidence that just shot through me right away because I knew, like I already I am gonna I'm gonna be better than my dad. Like this, this is stupid. How could you even contemplate going in the way that we've always been doing it. I started studying other guys, and I realized, like, they're screwing everything up. And that was you know, that was the first year I killed like a hundred you know, which for New York is big, Like I think he netted one two. Uh, And I have killed a tope and young buck ever since, every year since. I think there might be one year that I shot one with a muzzloader instead of the ball, But um, but that was and that's, in my opinion, that's something everyone should do. I think you should take what Joe says, analyze it and and really think about it. But but don't be afraid question and put it to the test as far as where you live in your style, take what Andy says. Don't put anything any of us say in gold and anything. These guys right, it's great that they're writing articles and stuff. And I've learned a lot from a lot of their articles, but a lot of it is nonsense. So don't take it uh to heart. Find your own style and find your own way and in master and be a master of your style. And I think that has helped me a lot. I forget. I literally just forgot about everything anybody had ever said to me about hunting. And I started my own studying of how things worked. I kept my own notes and I worked off my own results, and really, um, it has changed and I and I've varied it, but but it's it works. And and that was my turning. That was my big turning moment. And um, I would recommend everybody take advice, but evaluate it and and and test it and then take your own notes. And don't be afraid to be different. Don't be afraid to have a different style. If you notice everything and he says, and everything Joe says, remember the I say, it's really slightly different. And we're all very successful guys. Everybody has a style and it works such such great points. That's really well said. I can go to agree. Um, you know, you've gotta make your own way. So so, Joe, what would be your take on this question? Yeah, so um, they both said a lot of things I could relate to. First off, Jesse, the year background is pretty similar to mine as far as you know. I grew up hunting to eat. Um. You know, we didn't have much money and we needed to put food on the table, and that was my job. And I you know, I started, I killed hundreds of rabbits and squirrels, everything go fall, you know, that was my That was my start. And then yeah, I killed deer for the meat. You know, you get you need a deer, you need food, you kill it, you know. So um, it was very methodical. Um, yeah, yeah, it's fun, but it was, um, you know that's where I developed, um, you know, some sense of woodsmanship and and you know, how to how to move, when to move, when not to move, you know, how to make the shot. That kind of thing. It was in my teens. Um. I can definitely relate to that. And then what Andy said, you know, um, definitely an aha moment hunting mature bucks or what they are not just dear you know that was that was kind of the first big when I was deer hunting, you know, I was deer hunting, deer hunting, deer hunting, and then um, yeah, it was you know I wasn't that long ago, and fifteen years ago probably I was realized, you know what I was doing a silly U was sitting in a tree stand, you know, dreaming about a big buck and looking at you know a bunch of those who will buy so um um anyway, yeah, so sorry, my kid just interrupted me. I've been waving in mind, telling go back, go back. I'm yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I did. So, uh, you know, so I can relate to that second um, you know, first time sis, that's kind of um, you know, there was another step in the right direction and a huge improvement in my efficiency when I realized, hey, you know, I'm sitting some spots four or five six times, and I'm killing big buck on the first sit in in the location. You know those spots that are great spots. So I'm gonna try it again. You know, you're not gonna kill that a resident thing buck. They're onto you, so, um, that's true. And and then making the shot, you know you call it target pan or whatever. I did definitely struggle with making the shot early on in my bow hunting career. You know, I had a pretty lousy track record. UM, but I wasn't satisfied with it. UM. I changed my practice routine to better reflect basically real hunting situations. So I wasn't just sitting there, you know, shooting or standing there shooting arrows and my t shirts and flip flops, you know, and that was it. UM. Trying to many coming situations, I get a lot more visualization, and that was huge for me. You know, when I'm sitting in a tree, I'm gonna you know, I'm in the woods, I'm thinking about how buck could come by both easy shots and hard shots. What do I have to do to get the shot made. Um And I I don't know, I've just seen a huge improvement in how uh you know, basically my percentage of encounters that result in kills and also you know, missing or wounding animals that I have. I'm you know, I've been able to maintain the last called years or so a really good track record of getting the job done. And I put it all towards you know, preparate you know, preparing for the shop, practicing, uh you know, and well visualizing how an animal could could come in and you know, okay, what if he comes in back there and I got to twist around, and what what if I have a split second shot? What do I do? And you know, caring for yeah yeah, um And And it has made the difference on several bucks that I know. If I had thought about that a situation very similar to that beforehand, I wouldn't have killed that buck. But it was, you know, maybe a split second shot opportunity where he just paused, but I was kind of expecting it or become in a direction that I wasn't expecting. But I thought, hey, what if a buck comes in back there? What do I have to do to get that shot. How do I have to twist around? You know? Um, and it's it's the eat it happen. So that's that's I guess pretty much. Ship. Um, there's been all you know. There's probably many more, but that's that's good stuff. So I want to ask you guys two more questions. I'd like to keep it here for for much longer, but I wasted a half hour your time before we even got this podcast going because of technology. So I need to need to kind of move things along and maybe we're just gonna have to do it five more of these over the course of the next couple of months, because I don't know about you guys, but I could. I could talk to these guys all night. It is so refreshing to talk to guys are literally I want to finish their sentences that I know they can finish mine. It's really uh, it's an art. It's it's exciting to talk to guys who literally get it. They literally get it. So I'm fine to stay all night podcast. I'd be good for a little while, but I don't know how my wife could feel if I was here at two. Yeah, I think we've made it clear that Joe is a quitter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so let's let's shift the topic a little bit. And it's something that you guys have alluded to all throughout our conversation. It's always kind of been something you mentioned here, there, something you're thinking about. Um, but I think this is a topic that many deer hunters can point to as another one of their AHA moments, that being when they started really thinking about wind in one way or another that also took them to a different level from a deer hunting standpoint. I remember, kind of like you guys all talked about. I grew up just hunting like my dad did. I just walked into the woods, set after a tree, never even thought about the implications of what the wind was doing that day, and just changing that one thing just there's a light switch moment, without a doubt. So let's start with you, Andy, I guess can you talk about how wind factors into what you do, whether that be how you try to avoid getting winded, or how wind maybe impacts where you think deer will be betted or where they'll move or anything like that. Can you talk to me about wind and your deer hunting strategy? Yeah? Um, kvial depends on the time of the year. Um, I suppose, um. But I mean that's probably the first thing I look at on any given days. You know, obviously the wind direction. You know. I I'm not one that tries to beat a deer's nose. Um. You know, I I wash my clothes, uh, you know, but that's about it as far as that goes. But you know, early season and you know through October when I'm kind of focused more on you know, betting areas. Um, you know, I'm I'm I'm thinking about wind and how they relate to which betting areas would be used in a typical area that I'm that I'm focusing on at that time. So for instance, if there's a you know, if there's a buck you know in this certain area that I you know, has my interests, and I know that he beds, you know on this oxbow you know, with a south wind, you know, then that's what I'm gonna. I'm gonna hunt that deer in October you know, on that wind, um, you know, and try to kill him coming out of that bed. That that would be one example of how I would use you know, wind, you know, on on like a bed based type hunt. Um, you know, maybe switching more towards you know the rut um or or you know, maybe late October, you know when you know scrapes and that types of stuff. You know, that type of sign kind of starts picking up. Um. I haven't really killed a whole lot of deer like sitting over scrapes. That's not really a tactic of mine. But there, you know, there are certain ones that I do find and on rare occasion that I you know, I've heard people call him primary scrapes. But you know, that might be something I might focus on in that late October time frame. You know, maybe after a fresh rain. You know, it rains that night and then you know it kind of cuts off in the middle of the night. That might be a spot that I might try, you know, that next day. Um, you know, if it's a good area or you know, a buck that maybe I want to go after in that area, and I would sit down wind of that street, you know, if I'm using the wind trying to sit down wind of it, not necessarily shoot him on the street, but maybe checking it down wind, you know, and then during the rut, you know, I'm I'm using the wind who more of how a buck would use the terrain and the wind to his advantage. So you know, I might a lot. It's very common for me to sit on downward side of doll betting areas. I like the I like those spots. I like them better than your typical funnel um so big mature deer um. It's it's a spot where it's the spot where deer are going to becoming constantly, you know, when they're searching for dolls and estras. So you know, I put myself in a target Richard environment and the right I'm usually leaving Michigan, so there's gonna be more than one buck in the area probably that I would shoot. So I'm gonna sit that downward side of that dope betting area, and you know, if I'm in the right spot, you know I'm going to have some good action. Typically, um, I don't know. But those are just a few examples of how I use the wind. You know, un hill country, you know there's I don't have a ton of experience there, but I'm always monitoring the wind, and you know, depending on the time of the year, more times than not, they're they're using the wind to their advantage, So you really got to be careful. Um. You know, sometimes when you put you've heard this set a million times, and sometimes when you put the wind perfect for you, it's dead wrong for the deer. You know, they might not be there in a certain betting area if it's dead wrong obviously, or you know, they might not use a certain terrain feature or funnel you know, the way you're wanting them too, because the wind simply isn't in their advantage. So there's a lot of times you gotta cut corners, and you gotta you gotta take some should you know, you hear about just off wind hunting it just off wind. You know, I do that a lot. You know, you gotta you gotta let the deer think that they have the advantage and that they're safe. You know, especially a mature deer. They're just not going to move a ton and and show that type of vulnerability where they don't have some sort of wind advantage where they can detect their surroundings or um, you know, or at least when they're they're going after you know, does they're they're they got a mission, you know, the they are on a mission to to find out what's in that area and they're going to use their window advantage. You gotta you gotta cut those corners and be close to that, do you think, Andy, Do you think Andy, that a buck like can you say that buck will always if he's heading somewhere, he's always gonna have the wind in his face or crossing his face or something like that, or because I know some guys who will say, I'm never gonna hunt somewhere unless a buck could have the wind in his advantage coming towards me. Do you think that's true or can there be exceptions to that? Well? No, I don't. I don't think that's true. You know, I've seen dear you know, hunting all or moving all sorts of wind. But you know, typically if they're you know, if they're in an area where they feel safe, you know, typically close to their bedding area, they'll move, you know, with their wind at their back, wind at their side, they'll kind of head in the direction that they kind of want to go. But I do feel um, and it probably depends on the hunting pressure and maybe terrain to some extent, but I do feel like if the wind is there in their advantage, if they can spell up ahead, they will move further, and they will move earlier. Um. So, for instance, a hunting this buck um on a property kind of near where I live, and uh, the buck stepped out of his bed and he stood there and he just waited and he left. There was a kind of one of those calm like light and variable winds. He sat there for twenty minutes and never moved, and that wind switched just about every direction, and he got a very you know, a very good idea of kind of what was in the area. And uh, you know, when he thought the coast was clear, he started moving. You know, I mean he kind of he felt confident that he diagnosed the area, and he started moving, and he moved quite a way you know where if the wind was dead wrong, I don't you know, I don't think he would have ventured off from his security cover as far. So. You know, they don't always move with their wind in their face. They obviously can't. But I do think when they have that advantage, especially going going on like a a bed too feed type traveler out, I think they will move further. Um. You know, if they have the wind to advantage, if they can, if they can smell up ahead and kind of scent check those areas that you know, they trust their you know. So that's pretty much, you know, pretty much how I go about it. Yeah, that's that's a great point that I would I would just reiterate you say, you know, the big thing is think about what the wind is to the deer advantage, and then figure out a way to make it work for you the hunter. That's right. You can't then then you don't have that spot. You know, if you can't figure out a way to get in there, then well that's the wrong spot. You've got to figure out another spot, you know that to make it work. But think of it in terms of the deer first, not you the hunter, Otherwise you always be you know, too far away, right, Yeah, Joe, would you add anything more from how you think about wind or any other facets of that. Um that that's the big thing. Um. Another kind of important point I would make is it's very regional. It depends your adapt their environment so not. And that's not just human hunting, rusher, But I've become very aware of this a little northern Wisconsin. Um, the primary hunters up there are wolves and bears. UM, So I see far more wind to back movement. They're concerned about those predators trailing them down from their scent. So and there the human hunting pressure is a little lower. So, um, look at what the deer doing where you are. That's my advice. And there's going to be patterns and based your hunting based on that now here you know, you know Iowa. Yeah, deer are definitely using wind to their advantage. How I would describe it is kind of um. You know, they'll they'll move in every which way of wind depending on conditions, but around destinations. So that's not just that food, but also betting. They are going to try to use the wind to their advantage. So entering a food source, they'll a lot of times enter in a low area. Um, I see a big buck. Will you know where thermals might be pooling um and betting. They the vast majority of their time they are jay hooking into betting from the down wind side. Um. So they you know, they may be they may be traveling across the wind and they'll hook down wind and they'll come up and then they'll bed um. That's what I see in the Will country. So um, but it's regional. You know, Look what the deerre doing. I'm certain to be patterns. You know, wherever the listeners are, there's patterns what they're doing. And based your honey, based on you know, how they're moving, according to the wind that they are using it, I guarantee that they are using it all right, Jesse, you want to wrap this one up on the wind. What are your thoughts? Yeah, yeah, you know, I think the wind is kind of like the glasses half empty half full. It depends on how you look at it. Um. I'm a big I'm a big fan of the wind. Some people are so you know, the wind kills you. Yeah, it does. The wind makes you or breaks you. So you've got to be smart about it. Um. I love the wind. And in today's day and age, if I pray, everybody has a weather channel on their phone. If if you're not checking that weather channel before you you know, I'm checking it, you know, six hours before looking at it and go okay, the wind's gonna change it at five o'clock. I gotta account to that because I don't want to be sitting my standard at the hit by back. Um, so really study the winds and at least where I'm at. Um, it's pretty much always a southwest wind. Um. Those deer cannot possibly always move towards southwest. They move with it, They're always using it. But you can cheat it. And you've got to cheat them as close as you can with the bow and arrow. With a done it doesn't I mean it sounds bad. With a gun, that's a completely different world. Just get way, way way away, and you know you're gonna kill them with the boat. You gotta cheat that wind and figure out what that wind is gonna be and and really play it. Um. But I think a lot of it comes down to pressure too. I think if if these are heavily pressured, they are going to come to every food source with the wind in their favor, they're to circle their bed every time. Um. If it's early in the season and they haven't been pressured, they're a little more laid back, they're not spooky. You can get away with more. And that's why you've got to have that knowledge. Okay, this is um a good night to hunt this stand or I've killed so many of my best New York bucks. I really look for that oddball north wind or an east wind because I can access so many spots that are honey holes that I can never hunt with a southwest wind, and a lot of times those zero bed with a southwest wind, the thermals will change and the rest of the day we're getting an east wind. But those bucks still want to go to where they were last night, and that's when as long as they haven't been pressured, they're gonna travel a little bit with the wind at their back. And I want to kill them. And man, I had killed so many good ones on a north wind. I I'm literally standing in my shop just jumping up and down, and I can't wait to get out of work and go because I know I'm going to kill them. I mean, I know, I'm really I'm gonna have an encounter. And those odd winds and so many other guys they just go sit the same stand, they aw it's set, and then they have a horrible you know, they have a horrible night. Well, dude, you're hunting a standard set up for a southwest wind and it's an east wind. What is your expect? So if I'm hunt in the pocket, I've got one spot it's literally like four acres. I think I had twelve stands in there. Um, it just depends on the wind, and and and once you can slip into it, the winds can be a blessed. It is a blenching. You've just got to use it smart. It's kind of like, you know, wrestling against a really strong kid. Use his strength against them, let him exhaust himselves. And it's the same with hunting the wind man. Just use it as a weapon. Use the deer's nose. They think that if they can smell nothing, the coast is clear, they're they're gonna just walk through. And if you can escape that scent, they're screwed. You're gonna smoke them. So I love the wind. It's a it's a great tool. And really hunt off winds. I love odd winds, so that would be my cake on winds. It's a great perspective. Yeah, that vast majority of my bucks I've killed, You know that they were probably within ten feet of smelling me. You know that's right there when I got that shot. And then another point on that, A lot of them I've killed fiftyds downward into somebody else's spot. You know, yes, yes, they're checking them so good. So such good points right there. So how about we wrap it up with this, well, number one I'm going to try to convince all of you to come on and do this again someday. So whatever I need to do to weasel you guys into doing that, let me know. Um But number two, I'd like to hear from each one of you a story of a successful hunt and kill that you think is a perfect illustration of what makes you uniquely a a good or successful hunter. So if you can think back to a hunt where you kill the buck, that illustrates what makes you a good hunter, That's what I'd like to hear right now from each of you. And um, how about Jesse, let's let's throw it right back to you. Can you think of a story? Man, you hit you hit me first. I'm sitting here thinking it's like ordering food. I was thinking somebody else have to go first. I can think, um man, I have been so fortunate to kill so many good I have some great stories on killing does um or killing rabbits and woodchucks. Um. I guess the story that would say I was a good hunter, I would say jeepers persistence. I'd say I killed one um oh a few years ago in Kansas, um and where I was shunning there is no trees there's really no tree stand hunting. I really enjoy it. It's spotting stock. It is um It's like nothing I grew up doing, so it's very challenging. UM and I glassed up. I glassed up a couple of different beer. I got screwed by a couple of other hunters on on publicly, and you know, I was kind of getting frustrated. UM And I found a bomber of a buck, or to me, it was a bomber of a buck. Um and I saw this deer running across this prairie. I ran out after him. He literally was chasing the dough and chasing off ruther buck almost ran me over. I was so frustrated I had I mean, he just I couldn't have shot him with a gun. I mean he was literally with the twenty yards and me just flying with like grass that was up to my ankles between us. It was, it was. It was awesome. So that buck was so impressive to be next to. I was just like, I don't care, I don't care what it takes. I am killing this deer and I just I went out for the next two days and looked for this deer and glass could not find him. I'm sure he was breathing the dough somewhere in the middle of nowhere, and I ended up glassing him up the next day. It took me five or six days. Um in a in a it was a new piece of ground and you know, an unfamiliar state, and um, I ended up putting a stock him another. I think he had four or five bucks with him at twelve does so it was just a ton of eyes. There is no there's yucca plants. I mean, it's so awesome, it's it was great. Uh, It's probably my favorite hunt in my life. And uh, but I mean I kept getting busted, but I was smart enough to not get busted by him. I got busted by the satellite bucks that you know. They took off run and then kind of the herd would get up and they'd move, you know, three hundred yards. I'd have to restock a couple of spots. He was unstalkable, and then it was it was kind of like what Joe and I were saying earlier. The sun was setting. I had already been hunting there for seven or eight days, and it was like, I am, I'm going for broke. I took off my boots and I ran probably a quarter a half mile big circle in this prairie and there was a little bit of rain there some rocky bluffs, and I took off my boots for the last two hundred yards and um man, I had I had these little thistles that they have out there, just embedded in my feet. I was I was bleeding. I couldn't get him out of my feet. Um and I just kept going. They were stuck in my thighs. I mean, they're in my knees and stuff. And I came around this rocky bluff and I could just see him and I arranged a rock that was close to him. It was thirty eight yards and he was bedded and he was betted away from me, and I knew it was gonna be I'm getting excited thinking about this is awesome. I knew it was gonna be once I trusted that I had to draw, step out and make a quick shot because they were all right there, and I, you know, I remember, my heart was racing, and it was like this is making or break it. This is like your whole trip, and it's just all those years of shooting red squirrels and and you know, catching snakes and shooting frogs and sneaking up on woodchucks. That's when, before I knew it, I stepped out, drew my boat and drilled them. And all that those instincts of of listening after the shot and watching where he went and being patient at all paid off and everything. It was like textbook. If you could have had that on video, it would have been phenomenal. And and that was right then I thought to myself, like, I didn't even mean to do all this, Like I didn't consciously do any of that. That was just like what you said. It was just instinct of being a killer took over. And I was pretty proud of myself. That was a big That was a big public lands um white tail, and I was pretty pretty tickled with that. So I am so long when it sorry that took forever. Awesome. That's an awesome story. Uh Andy, you want to take the next one? Yeah? Sure, um man, I kind of want to tell the story of my buck from last year, but the story was just posted on the website today, so I'll skip that one. But um that. The next one that comes to mind is probably ironically my biggest book, and it doesn't really have anything to do with the size, but um, that was on my birthday November five, and I went to a spot it's it's a small spot, um that typically is good during that time frame. UM. And it's good because it's a like a river bottom area, lots of doughs, and you know, during that time of year, um, you know, early November, it typically draws in some bucks. And you know, under normal circumstances there's a couple of good ones in the area. But anyway, it is highly anticipated, UM, one of my favorite spots. And I drove there, which is my house probably probably about and then uh, climbed up in the tree and the wind is just dead wrong, completely different than what they said it was going to be. And I was like, holy cow, you know, I've been kind of waiting, um, you know, hunt that spot. And it was it's a it's kind of like a pitch. It's a betting area. It's a dope betting area that pinches down, so it's a kind of a funnel innovating and it's a phenomenal spot. And you know, I may have been able to kind of sit it out and had some luck, but I was like, you know, I just can't. I can't. I've been waiting all season to hunt this spot. I can't burn it out on a a win that's not perfect. So I climbed down and I actually drove thirty three miles back to a different property. And the reason I chose that property because there was a stand that, um well, a spot and it was there wasn't a stand hung, but a spot that I had prepped that again year prior. The year prior had a very big buck head an the counter with one I think it was on November four, so the year prior, and this was November five. So I drove to that spot. I had my lone wolf on my back and started heading towards that spot. On the way to that spot, um, you know, I you know obviously kind of peeking around and trying to kind of scout my way in sneak in this is mid day. Um, I noticed some very large such of tracks big you know, some of the biggest I've ever seen. And I kind of, you know, looked a little closer and with the binoculars up and I saw some rubs that were the size of my thigh. I mean, the biggest rubs I've seen in Michigan. And I'm looking, you know, from a distance of probably twenty yards or so, and I've got the glass on the roads. I'm like, holy smokes, you know, and I'm looking in their shavings on the leaves like they're on top. This just happened, probably today. And then I look on the it's kind of a corner of a standing cornfield that was no it's probably a good seventy acres and in the middle of that standing cornfield is a big oak tree. It's a little kind of like a little oak island where a little treats a little owned I guess where the corn isn't planted. And then it comes to a corner where there's a hardwood and then a set aside field like a crpld of CRP over grown field. And on that edge of the hardwoods there was a line of straight and each one had a little bit of urine in it. It was wet, you know. So I'm like, holy, you know this, this deer is here. I don't know where he's at, what he's here. So I didn't even make it to the stand that I was going to. I set up, and I set up down when of that area had no idea where he was, you know, UM, but I figured, you know, he's probably somewhere um, you know, probably with the dough. You know, it's that time of year. So UM, long story short, I am setting up. I think I was set up at like, um, maybe two fifty and by three thirty, UM, I had killed the biggest buck I've ever shot with a bow and in Michigan and ended up being like a hundred and seventy two in ten point um. So it was you know, it's just one of those one of those scenarios where you know, I had to make that call to leave an area that was I knew it's really good because the wind wasn't right and when I drove, you know, thirty three miles to this other spot, had another spot in mind where the wind was perfect. When I came across that hot sign and when I said hot, it was hot like it was. It was you know probably that there's just a couple of hours maybe before I was there, um, and I was able to set on it, set up on it because I always kind of have a I'm very mobile, so I'll always have a few little two steps and my mobile stand, you know, ready to go, you know, in case something like that happens. And then it happened on that day and I set up on it and it paid off on my biggest buck ever. Man, that's awesome. That's a that's a really great illustration of a lot of those things you've talked about. Joe, Do you wanna do you want to try to wrap it up with one more story here for us? Yeah? Sure, Um yeah, I'll I got a lot of stories saying, I know we could go round and around for another six hour. Um. Yeah, So I'll tell a story of bucket shot a couple of years ago on public land. UM. I've shot bigger bucks. Um, but this buck, I don't know, just I plane outsmarted him, just just you know, just outwitted him. And that that feels pretty good when you do that. Um. Anyway, that this buck was feeding on off the off the field all summer long. UM. I had a camera soaking on one side of the field months of months of August and September. Um, I was kind of just doing some low impact scouting before the season. Checked the camera and it was right on the field edge and there was this really big nine pointer coming in, huge body. You had average antler, I mean real nice, he's under four class, but m huge, hulking body was coming in on this side of the field and it was in the dark. Um, almost all the pictures were in the dark unit September, but it was just after dark. And he was also favoring at the north and northeast winds to come into the field on that side. Well, it's on public land, UM. And the edge of the field, or the edge of the public land, wasn't that far back from the edge of the field was a couple of hundred yards of timber that I had for public. But I suspect the scouted all all that area in the past, and I knew if he was betting, he was petty, probably betting across the fence on private and then coming onto the public and then up to the field in the dark. So I had, you know, the preferred wind condition, and I had you know, my guestimated travel route from UM based on you know, cyber scouting. Looking at that private property next to the public, I mean I figured he was betting within a hundred hundred and fifty yards of the fence, and I thought I could set up basically right next to the fense and get a chance at him in daylight and so and that was on September. You know, season opens October one. I know, patterns changed fast. Um. I had to get on him so October one. By luck, I had the right wind. It was like a northeast wind. I slipped in there on mobil. Um. I haven't pre hung a tree stand in a long time, set up in my tree saddle. Um and his luck would have it. There was a guy cutting firewood like back on the private land in the general area where I thought that buck was betting. He never showed. UM. And this spot's kind of hard to described, but you know it's kind of a bottleneck. There's several French crossings on the side of a ridge where they're coming from the private down the ridge of the ridge up ultimately to hells off the field. And um, you know I had to cover everything. I was set up right in the middle of stuff, you know, kind of going for broke stuff could stuff that was coming past me, could smell me behind me. But I you know that's where I had to be to get the shot. Well, I got out October one time. He didn't show. I did see it a little bucket, think and a dough but UM got out of there, and just part of me my gut said, and this is where you know it's important to listen. You got my gut said, it's worth hunting that spot again. So a week later, October seven, I had the exact same win, UM, and I went in there, but I did not pick the same tree. I figured that buck was kind of a home body in there all the time. He would smell my ground set if he was going to probably adjust his travel route to be coming in coming, passed down wind, further down wind. So I moved. I moved about thirty yards as all. That's all I could move and out now it's like twenty yards in the fence line. Um, and uh, sure enough he came in. It was perfect. He came in pop the fence. He was probably five ft five ten ft frommell on me, and he was a full fifty yards down the wind. In my original set up, he would have smelled me, and I would have never gotten a shot if I hadn't adjusted that set on that a second on that second set. And I and I don't know, I'm big about how the kill goes down. I guess for me like I've really take a high, you know, I take a lot of pride and like a quick, clean kill. And I shot that deer to the top of the heart. He had no clue what hit him. He like hopped about fifteen yards, stood and then he just went straight down like just both dead, you know. And I still remember that, and that's I don't know, between just playing outwitting him. He thought he had you know, he knew there was an hunter in the area, but he figured, well, I can sneak through and if there's a guy up there trying to kill me, I'll smell him. You know. I know deer can't think, but you know, he was avoiding my first set. I'm certain of it, and he thought, you know, and I guessed right. I made the shot and he was dead. He had no clue what I am. And it just, oh, you know, I love that. I feel like, man, that that is a great a great story. And uh, as we've as we've been doing this, I have just been getting more and more and more amped to get back in the woods and start scouting or keep scouting, start hunting again. This is just this is this is what's all about. You guys are an inspiration. It's cheesy as that sounds. You guys are inspiring me right now. Um, this is just exciting stuff. There's been a lot here. I think people can learn from you. Guys have said an awesome example, and you've shared so much, and uh, I just appreciate it. So we're gonna have to do something like this more in the future, and until then, thank you guys so much. Yeah, thanks, thank you guys. It's a pleasure talking with all of you. It's really great to uh can burst back and forth with guys with your tailber. Thanks for having me Mark. Yeah, thanks, thanks guys. I appreciate it. It It was a lot of fun. So yeah, do it again, give me a call. Yeah, it's yeah, Yeah, it's uh, it was. It's been a good time. You know, I look up to both of these guys, are both you know, very motivating and uh obviously great hunters. And you know, thanks for having me to Mark. Hey, my pleasure. Someday I hope I can. Yeah, I was gonna say someday, I hope I can stand in your company as an equal. I'm working on it. I would point out really quick, you know, how people conduct themselves is important A lot of people out there kill big Bucks. Like you know, then there's lots of ways to kill big Bucks. And you know, um, part of my friend. But like if you turn into a dick measure and contest, I don't have any time, you know. I I like how people, you know, I like both the way both of you. You know, you're classy about it. You know there's always something more to learn. Um. You never you know, never air again about it. Um. And that that kind of thing speaks for itself in my opinion. So yeah, well said, I agree with that as well. And and the interesting thing if you I don't know if you guys were, but mentally, as you guys are talking, I'm thinking about what you're saying. And I think if you notice all of the guys, uh, the other guys, anytime somebody was speaking, you could the wheels returning. These guys are definitely students at no at no matter what level they're at. UM, they're computing what I'm saying, and computing with each other is saying and in agreeing or or adding to it. And to get to the next level, that's the mindset you have to have. And that's why these guys are successful. They get it and when they when somebody's speaking, they're listening. And I've learned a lot from brilliant guys. I've learned a lot some really stupid guys that stupid hunters. They killed the giant, and I think to myself, how did he kill it? Well, he killed it because he did something stupid that I would never think of doing. And you learned from that. And these guys are students of the game and they're learning from everybody around them. That's a great point. I would just mention. I like reading like North American white Tail, like their big Buck profile or whatever they call um, because a lot of them are like complete blind luck, like this guy killed then and bodiens non typical, and but it's like it's it's luck, but it's not luck, you know, Like, yeah, he just happened to choose that spot. He walked into the woods randomly as the meat hunter, and he had this giant. But like, like I looked behind the scenes at the story and all these things are like, yeah, their first time sits or you know, the guy's not mucking up the spot with checking his jail killer every three days or so. Yeah, so true that that's that's such a going to learn something from everybody, that's right. Yeah, yeah, well to definitely do this again. There's some there's so many other things to keep talking about. Yeah, we've only we've only scratched the surface, that's for sure. I feel there's a thousand more questions I'd like to ask in top us to cover. But next time, and there you go are two hundred episode is in the books, and like I said, I think it was at the end of last episode. Thank you guys for making this all possible. It's been a heck of a ride, and uh really looking forward to where we can take things next. Uh that said, I've kept you here a long long time. I think this is our longest episode ever. So we'll shut this down here real quick. Just want to wrap it up by thanking our partners at Sitka Gear, Yetie Cooler's, Matthew's Archery, Maven Optics, the White Tail Institute of North America, Trophy Ridge and hunter ra Maps, And finally, thank you all for listening. Good luck out there if you are doing some scouting or some ship hunting of your own, and until next time, stay wired to hunt. H