00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. This is episode number one eight Taylor Show. We're joined by expert shed hunter and author Joe shed And as you might have guessed, we're talking shed hunting. All right, welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, brought to you by sit Ka Gear. And today we are talking shed hunting. And we're joined by the man who literally wrote the book on hunting. And and I kid you not, Dan, the guy's name is Joe Shed Right, it almost sounds fake. Well what I what I wondered is like, did he go out and change his name because he wanted to be a shed hunting guy? Or was it fate? Did fate destin him to write a book on shed hunting. I don't know which it is, but I don't know. But Joe's an average shed hunter. Is he the first guy to ever go hunting? I doubt that. I doubt that. You don't think so, But you can ask him when we get him on Huh, I'll let you ask that question. Okay, sounds good. Okay. So Joe Joe is an avid, possibly the first shed hunter. He's a past contributor to Deer and Deer Hunting magazine, and like I said, he wrote the book on shed hunting called Shed Hunting A Guy Defining White tailed Deer Antlers. So in a few minutes here we're gonna get him on the line and we're gonna go deep into everything he knows about finding antlers. And I'm pretty pumped about that. I don't know about you, Dan, but this is that time of year where you know, the shed itch is uh needs to be scratched, right right, amen, Like I need to just go for a long eight hour walk. There's something I mean, A it's fun to actually be out there looking for sheds. But then also, at least for me, usually that's the first opportunity I get for some serious outdoor time in like a month or so, other than some little scouting trips and stuff. You know, a good full day of shed hunting is just like a little bit healing for the soul, right right right, Just you know, beat cabin fever a little bit and get out there. And um, I remember me and my buddy Ryan. It was in two thousand and twelve. I think we went out on a shed hunt. He had a little girl at home and my wife was just getting ready to uh um have our first child. And we found a day that worked for both of us and we went out and it was like ten degrees that day in February and we still went out and we still pounded the ground. You're doing, Yeah, no matter what? So uh we uh we pound the ground, came away with a couple of sheds, but most importantly, you know, we got to go outside. Yeah, much needed at this time of year. I'm definitely I've definitely had Kevin fever. Um, have you got out walking at all yet? Come on, Mark, what kind of what kind of questions that you're talking to a guy who went hunting one time from November three to January ten? I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. We don't do that next time? Alright, my bad? What about this? Do you have a game plan for when you will go out for the first time? Yeah, it's gonna be. It's gonna be really soon. Um. One of my farms really close to the house this weekend. Um, I'm actually going to pick up my um pick up my mount It's done. Yep, it's done already, yep. And um, while I'm down in that neck of the woods, I'm gonna go out near one of my farms that I hunt, and I'm gonna be talking to a new landowner to ask permission to shed hunt and turkey hunt the spring, and hopefully that might lead into the um the white tail season bow hunting, because that piece of property is next to another awesome piece of property that I know I can't hunt because the farmer who owns that property is a big time hunter him and his family at bow hunt. But the land next to it, it's kind of some scrub ground. And you know, you know how the rud is man, those those big bucks will take a cruise every once in a while into some of these not so you know, sought after pieces, and those are the pieces that I like. You know, you bring up a good point, and I know we've talked about it in past episodes over the last few years, but you know, this is such a great time to get shed hunting permission and a stablish that relationship which can someday lead to hunting permission. Maybe. I mean, even if even if you're not like a shed hunting addict. You should start doing it simply, if for another reason, to try to eventually lead to some possible new hunting spots. Because it's it's a really really good way to at least, you know, introduce yourself to people and and get that conversation started. Amen. Amen, And I'll be doing a lot of it. Yeah. I think this year in particularly, I don't know how much longer I'm gonna have my my main farm. It may only be five years, but I need to start striking some relationships with some new farmers and this is the time of year to do it. So why why do you say that that you're not sure about how long you're ale to hunt the current spot? Is there something like new information that it's getting to the point where the the landowner is to the age where she even mentioned she's like, I don't know how much longer I'm going to do this, or how much longer it's going to be in the family. Uh, it might be sold within you know, because I'm not really sure how old she is. I've never asked, but she's in her sixties if I had to guess, and um, she you know, she's starting to get rid of some of her livestock because it's just too much work for her. And that kind of leads to, you know, the next step, which is no livestock and just cash running out the farm. But she's got like five sisters or five siblings, and you know, when it comes to a kind of a scenario like that, half of them are a majority of them who don't like to like the farm life. They just want the money and they're gonna sell it and split up the money, if I had to guess, and uh go from there, and then you know, typically what will happen is some either a rich farmer or I shouldn't say rich, but a farmer will come in and buy the ground for their livestock and they are um and their crops, or it's gonna get purchased by someone who is all about the you know, the hunting, and then they'll cash rent that to the as well, and then audios to me and the other guys that hunt that that piece. Well, what you gotta do is you gotta start saving your pennies, Dan, and then buy that some of a gun. Yep, yep, abracadabra. Yeah, just easy as that, right, Hey, I'm gonna give you fifteen dollars for a cool that it wouldn't it be nice to be independently wealthy? Oh man, I'm trying. Uh maybe you should sell how much do you think you could sell Wired to Hunt for right now? Like fifteen mill? Not nearly as much as I wish I could. Not nearly enough, that's for sure. Uh. Yeah, that's back to back to shed hunting. Man. I don't know about you, but like you like you're I think you were getting ready to say it's like a mind clens. Yeah, it's just good to get out there. And at least for me, at least for nine percent of the time, there are those times like after you shed hunting for like ten straight hours and you haven't seen a thing, then you sometimes start to wander. I feel like but lots of times when I'm shed hunting, you know, you're so focused on searching for that bone, just constantly scanning looking. You know, it takes your mind off of all the other things going on in your life that maybe could be stressing you out or worrying you or anything that it's just a great way to get out there in fresh air and just be in a zone. And uh, And that's pretty other cool thing about shed hunting is let's say you go out and you do a huge push. That night, you're sleeping like a baby. I love. I love just going out and getting exhausted and then going home and crashing. Yeah. I agree. I've been holding off on going out too. I'm just as bad as you. I haven't really done any shif hunting yet because you know, I don't have a ton of spots here in Michigan that I can ghosts. I've been trying to wait till most of those antlers are hopefully on the ground. And with this mild winter we've had, I think, at least in places where they have milder weather, we're probably gonna possibly have a later antler drop for some deer too, or at least more scattered. Um. I'm sure. I'm sure Joe will talk about this a little bit. But I don't know what you've seen, Dan, but from what I've seen, it seems like when you've got those really hard, cold, snowy winters, the antlers tend to fall a little bit earlier, and they tend to be more concentrated, you know, around the couple of core food sources or whatever. But when it's kind of snowless and mild, at least it's been here in Michigan, I kind of where that's gonna make it kind of tough. Those antlers are gonna be all over the place, and uh, you know, it's gonna be hard to know when they've dropped my I've I've lost pretty much all the bucks off of my property, my main Michigan property. Um, there's nothing on trout camera anymore. So all the food sources have dried up in the area. My food plots actually got flooded. We had a ton of rain, and so all the foods covering water. Um it's now cover from snow. But I think that definitely hurt the activity. And so I'm actually gonna start driving around the roads here in the evening and try to relocate where some of these bucks might be. Now, you know, this time of year, they can move half mile mile mile and a half away to find where that best food is. So I'm kind of hoping maybe I can relocate some of these bucks and get permission there. Maybe. So that's like my next week, week and a half, that's my project. Awesome, So I luck with that. Thank you, Thank you, I want to mention one thing before we get Joe on UM. I had a really cool experience this past weekend. We had UM and and as you know, Dan, and I'm sure a lot of people who have been following both you or I on social media or really a lot of people on social media, there's a lot of talk recently about the public lands transfer movement, which we've talked a lot about and how that's a really bad idea. UM. Well, this past weekend, our Michigan chapter of back Country Hunters and Anglers of which I'm a board member, we had an event in southwestern Michigan. We had a pint night and we had I don't know somewhe around maybe fifty different guys and girls come down to have some beers and talk about public lands and talk about what we can do to try to protect these places. And it was a really really cool UM opportunity to get to see people railing together like that. And uh, I really enjoyed that. And I got to meet some wire hunt listeners and followers, which was really cool. UM. Lots of people, lots of people were wondering why you weren't there, Dan, Why didn't Dan make the drive from Michigan to Michigan. But it was cool. Um, So that was fun. And Um. The one other shout out I want to make about that event and about the topic in general, is, right now, there is a law, a bill that has been proposed last week was proposed, Dan, you've heard, We've been talking about it. Hr SIXE proposes the sale of three point one million acres I believe, of public lands. Straight up, They're not even been talking about transferring. It's just saying we want to sell over three million acres of these public LANs. So if you're not familiar with this whole deal, you can go back and listen to our podcast with Randy Newburgh about it, or you can go and search on Google or on wired hunt. There's lots of stuff I've written about in the past, um talking about why this whole thing is a really bad idea. Um. But either way, go and send an email or make a phone call to your congressman or a woman. Um. Right, Dan, you've done that. You reached out to some of your reps, all of them. Yeah, even uh, even the U the Utah Senator, the Utah congressman who proposed the bill. I've reached out to that office as well. Yeah, I think that guy has got lit up because a lot of people are sharing his Instagram account and stuff and he's getting Yeah, um, it's funny. I I called my my representative here for our congressional district that I live in. I called his office in Washington and his local Michigan office and I sent an email. Uh. And then like the next day I got an email from a guy who says he's a big follower of wire to Hunt, and um, he also happens to be the nephew of my representative. Oh nice. So he's like, you probably have been calling my uncle. So I need to respond to that guy and say, yes, I have been calling your uncle. Right. So that was kind of a funny, small world type thing. So hopefully if you're listening, um, talk to your uncle about how this is is not a good idea. This is not a good idea. So that's that's all for my little uh public land PSA. Unless you've got anything else, Dan, I just you know, this is a light hearted conversation between me and you, but the action that needs to be taken on this should not be lighthearted. This is this is a this is a real serious problem because what happens is a law like this is past and yeah, okay, so everybody thinks, oh, it's out west, How is this going to affect me, I'm an East coast person. Well, if you hunt public and period, this is gonna show other states what they can do and it could snowball and imagine a United States with no public land. Right. So this just isn't a Western issue because states like Michigan, their representatives and congressmen, they they're going to vote on this. So it's very important for every person in every state to take action. And when I mean take action, I don't mean share a Facebook post, I mean call email, voice your opinion and and to your point. Damn. You know, while this law or this proposal last week that we're talking about six one that specifically mentions a slew of Western states, there have been proposals that are applying the same type of logic to all states. There was one that was proposed last summer where they were, um essentially, we're asking to give every state permission to sell two million acres of federal public lands, or the maximum amount of public lands they have if it's underneath that limit. Um. So there's all sorts of stuff coming out like this. It's been happening for a while now, it continues to build steam, and it's just a it's a really bad, poorly thought idea that some people with a lot of money and interest in trying to exploit these lands are trying to push through. So hunters, anglers, campers, hikers, rafters, wildlife watchers, watchers, we all need to step up on this one because you know, to your point, imagine, imagine this country without public lands, whether it's a spot to deer hunt, or a place to go take your kids to go see wildlife or somewhere to camp some day. I mean, these things are they don't come back if we if we let them get away, if we let them be developed or sold, we're never getting them back. So so that's that we'll definitely be talking more about in the future too. We've got some some episodes where will be solely talking about some things like that. So I think with that said, we'll move on back to shed hunting though, um and uh, well, we'll talk some fun stuff about antlers. So let's take a quick break here to thank our partners that sick to gear and then we will give Joe a call. Alright, Well, some of you might recall us mentioning a few weeks ago that Sick of Gears launching a new line of clothing specifically for female hunters, And so for our Sickest story today, I thought we'd bring on Jess de Lorenzo, an avid white tail hunter who was recruited to be a part of that process for the new female specific gear, and hear from her just a bit about what it was like to be a part of that. While when they first approached me about it, I mean I was ecstatic to be involved because, um, that was like my number one wand I just wanted to stick to gear that was made for women as far as the fit and and things like that. So when they told me that they were going to give it a go and we're gonna let me be involved with it, I was super excited. And they put myself and a few other female hunters kind of in a room at SICCA headquarters and basically said, what do you guys want, What do you need? What kind of um things are missing in your year? And they gave us like full rain. We were able to give them all of our ideas and From there, we started getting our feedback on the designs that they were getting back and testing the prototypes, and we went through several rounds of prototype testing UM and then we all uh did some hunts and things like that as well to make sure it was working out good in the field. And I've spent the last two seasons testing UM the white tailed products for women. Now next week we're gonna hear more from Jess about what her and the team were ultimately able to develop for female hunters. But if you'd like to learn more in the meantime, you can visit gear dot com Slash Women's And now we'll get back to the show and give Joe a call. All right with us now on the line is Joe Chad. Thanks for joining us. Joe, We're glad to be there. We uh, we were just joking a little bit ago before you get on that we thought it and you probably get this a lot, but it's it's pretty crazy that the guy that wrote the book on shed hunting has a last name Shed. Was it was that fate, like we did you know from the moment you were a young child you had to be this guy? How did it happen? No? I guess you know, all my life, everybody's called me Joe Sheid and ever since, uh, ever since the book came around and shed hunting got popular, then people kind of get to the shed. And I think there's a guy that plays for the Seahawks in the same last names, so that helps too. So is is she the proper pronunciation? Though? Oh? Shed is actually a correct pronunciation? Okay, alright, nice? So have you have you been out shed hunting yet this year? You want to tell you the truth, I really haven't been out too much this year. This this last weekend, I went out and did a little bit of scouting and that's about it. Nice. That's uh, that's the same boat that me and Danner and but I imagine, just like us, you're chomping at the bit and you're excited to really get out there and start walking. Well, I really am, you know, when the worst thing you can do right now is like a faceboo because it's just blowing up with all these people finding sheds, which is great, you know, but it's kind of uh, it is what it is. Um where I live, you know, in northern Minnesota here county I live in actually borders Canada, so we can't get a lot of snow, although this year has been pretty mild, and I really don't like to bother the deer when there's a lot of snow. And uh, I like the ice fish too, so that kind of gets in the way of things. True, true, I Uh, I've got some buddies of the same way. In most years, I'm usually trying to pull them away from ice fishing to try to get them to go walk with me. But this year, with the warm temps we've been having, it hasn't been an issue. Not expecting it to be an issue probably here in the next few weeks, but we just got a big dump of snow last night. So I went from feeling really good about, you know, maybe be on to find some mid February antlers, to all of a sudden, I don't know, So it'll be interesting. But I gotta asks Joe, how how long have you been doing this? How did you get into shed hunting? How long ago did this all begin for you? Well, I guess I guess the scrowler had been around swlenty years. Um. You know, when I look back, you know, the deer hunting itself has really changed. I remember when I was a kid, you know, back in the eighties, you know, you know, going along with my dad, you know, you sat at the first buck he saw. You know, there was never talk about, you know, passing up a deer or anything like that. It was just different. I mean, there were guys doing that obviously, but it's different than it is now. And back then, it just seemed kind of crazy that a deer could live through the hunting season. And where I grew up in Wisconsin, it's like a war zone out there and opening day and I know that's the same way in a lot of areas, and rebucta survived long enough the girl outstead of antlers and drop them and grow and others. That just seemed improbable back then. So you know, as mentalities changed, people passed up bucks and and you know, in deer hunting has gotten so incredibly popular, you know, just you guys are into it year round on and uh, I mean it wasn't even on the radar back then, and now it's just kind of gotten to be a a major thing where everybody's doing it. Yeah, how do you have any idea how many antlers you've found? You keep track with that at all or do you know how many you typically find a year or anything along those lines. You know, I do keep track pretty good of as far as I like to put a tag on everyone. And uh, what's really crazy is I can remember I have a room in my basements that I'm started, and how long ways to go on it. But I've been trying to put them on shelves and organize them, and I have people come over and I'm like pulling off the shelf, cover the tag, and I'll tell you where I found it and what you know, almost sometimes what day I found it in, what year? And uh, I'm pretty good about the old stuff, you know. The newer stuff I can't remember as well. But as far as I count, I really I really don't know. It's hard to say. I'm pretty decent when it comes to like the bigger shed that I have. I can remember those well. But like a Spike Antler or like a little four key, those I feel like get all mixed up in my head and I can't keep track of those. What about you, Dan? Can you do you have a mind for remembering? Yeah, I can check out some characteristics on the Antler and uh, and have a pretty good idea where I found them. Maybe not for me, it's not the year, but I can tell you exactly where I found the antler, Probably not what year though. Um. However, I have a bunch of those little four point you know, four point sides that they all kind of look the same. They're probably from a you know, a two year old that I probably couldn't tell you where where it's from unless it has some noticeable characteristics to it, right, your typical generic four point two year old, those do tender all mixed together. UM. So, Joe, where all you shed hunter? Just if you hunted other places other than your home state? Yeah. Um, I've done quite a bit of traveling. UM. I had several years there where I was just able to, um, you know, be self employed to um have some a lot of flexibility as far as travel went. In the spring. I don't have that anymore, and I kind of missed that. But um, mostly across the Midwest. UM. I've been to Saskatchewan a few times. I've been up in Alaska, UM rockies. UM. I went on a deer hunts in Alabama once on the company's dime, and I kind of got gar hold. I was in a bad spot. I hadn't seen anything bigger than the spike in three days. So the last morning I climbed down early and poked around and I managed to find a drop time and shed down in Alabama's That was kind of cool. That's awesome. Where's your favorite place to shed on? What's what's the best state? You think? You know? I really don't know. There's so many good areas. I mean, you look at you know, areas like Iowa and Illinois are obviously famous. They have a lot of deer and a lot of big antlers um. Saskatchewan is incredible as far as you know, just the trophy class and the amount of antlers um. But to be honest with you, the stuff I really like the best is the stuff right around home, because you know, those are the deer I know, and maybe I have a history with. And you know, you gotta understand, I go out of my own and my my own turf, and if I find one shed a day, that's a good day for me. Because the areas I live and don't have exceptional deer numbers, they don't have exceptional trophy um potential. But you know, it's a deer I'm familiar with the dry hunt, and that kind of makes it special to me. Yeah, so when it when it really starts getting good, uh you know that late February early March, where for me historically is when I have found the most antlers. Are you pounding ground eight hours a day or are you you know, poking in for a one like a one or two hour walk here? You know, next day you go out for a couple hours or or do you hit it hard for like four weeks? Yes, it it's kind depends on the situation. Back in the day when I had a lot more free time, when I didn't have a real job. Um, I'd got pretty much every day and uh um, I looked in some urban areas where you know, the deer are very visible and they're relatively tame. You know, they see people on a daily basis or in city parks and stuff, and and kind of the name of the game with that was you got to be the first guy down the trail and the day it drops and get lucky because you know some of those areas I go in three times a week and uh, just a small area that you know, it took me a half harder cover, but I just get burned. Out doing that over and over, and you'd go in there and you can see the deer. I mean a lot of times they get pictures of them or videos because they're they're relatively tolerant people, and that stuff just burned me out. Um, what I really like to do when it's when it's a game on time, I'm gonna go all day every day. Um, you know, I'm a weekend warrior again. But um, you know, we'll do Buddy and I'll do trips, will go to Montana for a week or Idaho or something and and found it pretty hard. And that's always a lot of fun when you do those western trips. Are you looking for white tailing owns or elk and mule is up in the a little farther up in the country, Well, it depends where we go. Um out in Montana, Well, we'll do the river bottoms in the eastern part of the state and then it's you know, it's white tails down the river bottoms. And then you kind of get up in the foothills a little bit in just a little bit of elevation, you'll get in some mule deer. Um we've gone higher elevation out and um Idaho where we're you know, each day will start like maybe say, roughly five thousand feet and will end up at eight thousand and uh, then it's mule deer and elk and that's a lot of fun. But man, that's a that's a pound there. I bet this is something I'm I'm particularly intrigued with because I think I'm gonna try to do some rocky mountain shed hunting for the first time this year. Um is it? Is it at least on the White Tail front when you're searching the river bottoms and stuff, Is it dramatically different than shed hunting in the Midwest or something? Or you just basically trying to find the good in her food source and betting and walking those bottoms. Well, you know, I've I've done the Montana river bottom thing a couple of times, and um, you know, I don't want to say it's easy, but I think it's kind of easy compared to what I'm used to um out there. You know, it's it's so much wide open spaces. It's you know, there's gonna be fields and stuff, but really the only cover around is gonna be caught and with down the river bottoms and it's pretty easy to figure out where they're where they're spending their time. You know, that's the only cover available, so that's where we shed hunts. You just follow the river corridor, which makes it pretty easy. I like the idea of easy shed hunting. I do too. That sounds right up my alley. The problem is we run into a lot of competition doing that too. You know, we're not the only guys going out there. And we'll talk to a rancher and he'll say, yeah, we had you know, two groups come through here already. But you know we still find sheds too, so not really interesting. So rewinding just a little bit, Um, how did a book come to me? How do you end up getting the idea and the desire to write a book on shed hunting? Well, I guess it was kind of a a long process. Um. You know, by trade, I'm a outdoor writer. I worked for doing deer hunting magazines for a few years and um that was my full time job, and um, I was kind of immersed in everything. Dear at that point, you're working on the magazine and you know, I'm a writer, and uh, I kinda well, I really got into shed hunting. You know when I really really started getting into it was the early two thousand's. Um I've tried, you know, back in the nineties and stuff, and back in the good old days before everybody else was doing it. I wish I could go back, But um I started kicking around the idea. You know, it was just a really starting game popularity in the early two thousand's, and I'm like, you know, there's no book on this, I should write a book. And uh I kind of toyed with the idea for a while, and I knew, you know, you started writing a book, you start publicizing it, you're kind of cutting your own throat because the next thing, you know, you're gonna find footprints where you'd like to shed hunting. And that really kind of made me balk for a while. And I probably sat on the idea for about a year, and uh I finally got to the point where I kind of was, you know, doing a pro and con thing and realized that, you know, it's something I really enjoy it. And the first thing that I like to do when I when I find a good fishing spot or when I find a good shuttingting spot, I always want to bring a friend. You know, you know, not not something that's gonna you know, mess me up and come back without me, but a good friend and and share that experience. You gotta pick and choose. I know I've been burned before, but uh, you know, I come back there. It's it's more enjoyable with a friend and or just to see the look on somebody's face when they find the shedding. And uh, I kind of realized as well. You know, I figured if I didn't, somebody would at some point anyway. Um, And looking back over the you know, the last decade or so, there's just been it's just gained so much popularity. You look at the Facebook pages, there's a bunch of different Facebook pages dedicated to it that that weren't around back in the day. And um, it's just it's on some mainstream you know. Yeah, like you said, it's probably inevitable. There's so much momentum building up, regardless of if you put a book out or not. Probably, like you said, someone would be putting out at that information. Um, but do your friends ever give you crap? When you're good? Shut outing spots get picked up by other people. Well, you know, I know there's people that I'm sure wouldn't. I wouldn't appreciate me publicizing the sport. But you know, there's there's been so many people doing it over the last few years, and it's it's really getting hard. I got it. I have a couple of spots I will not go to in the wintertime when there's snow on the ground, because I won't really leave a track. And you know, I've I've gotten burned a pull a couple of people and brought them in there, and the next thing you know, they're bringing their friends and without you. And that kind of made me mad a little bit. And you just gotta kind of pick and choose. And I I tend to be willing to show people's stuff if the're good friends of mine. But I got a couple of spots I won't take anybody. I got a question for you, now, I like to I'd like to shed hunt a lot, but I I really only like to shed hunt pieces of property where I can keep the sheds now. I've been invited to several other farms where the guys like, hey, um, you want to come shed hunting with me? And uh, but but at the end of the day, I'd like to have those sheds. Well. For me, that just seems like a waste of time because I feel that I have enough ground to pound on my end, you know, two to uh, you know, go and keep that sheds, which which kind of leads me to this these set of rules that I was taught by another group of guys that I used to shed hunt, and and uh, Mark shed it hunted with me before and so he kind of knows them. But the rules are um Number one, if you find it, you know, you get to keep it. Number two, if let's say I find the first shed and Mark finds the matching set, Mark gives up that that side so the set can stay together. And then the other rule, the very last rule is if somebody kills that deer. So let's say Mark has the matching said or just one of the antlers, and I killed the deer, he gives them up, so the all the antlers are with, you know, with the deer. Do you have any type of unwritten rules that you live by when it comes to shed hunting. I guess I don't, dan Um. That's kind of what exactly what you said is basically kind of the unwritten rule that I have heard and usually go by um, I don't end up in that situation a lot. Um. I have a good friend named dan Hess who I said, hunt with him. I know that we've found in the past one one of us will find one antland the the guy to get the match, and then we usually do give it up. Um. So I think that what you said is pretty much right. But you know, it depends on the given circumstances. And you know, you start to get a really special shed, you know, maybe it's a eighty or ninety and shed it's it's awful hard for that second guy that to give it up when you know it's a m the first guy's got, especially if if they don't know each other. I mean, if you're helping a guy look specifically look to match that deer up, that's one thing. But if you just find it, you know, on your own, then it's a little sticky, right. And I guess all those rules are you know, addressed up front. When you know, either I go hunting, you know, shed hunting with somebody, or somebody comes shed hunting with me. Yeah, you know, And I don't I don't ask people to to give it up to me. It's their choice. It doesn't mean that much unless I say, hey, we're specifically looking for this dear. You know, if they find something else that I have the match too and they want to keep it, you know, I've I've got enough shot this maybe, but you know, I just I feel bad about asking. You know. It's like if if it was something where I said, hey, I'm specifically looking for this deer, then it's kind of understood. But otherwise, you know, I'm pretty leaning to me and that I hate to take a shed from somebody. Yeah. We we've actually started mixing that rule with some of my buddies this past year. Um, just because especially if you like, if you don't you know, like you said, Joe, if it's a buck, you know, when you really want to find those antlers, you know, we're all about giving those antlers to that guy if it's his property or something. But but otherwise, like I don't know, I get I know, Dan, you're really big on the antlers should be together and the match that belongs to match set. I get that, and that's cool, But at the same time, I also know, like, if it's random antlers and the only antler you find one day or that day, if such and such fines and antler. He's super pumped about it. And then a minute later such and such finds that one antler and that's the only anler he finds that day. And you were both really pumped to find this antler, and then all of a sudden you have to give it up. I'm kind of like, at least for me now, I think I've decided that, you know, unless it's like a deer, I'm personally after If it's just just a random match, I'm like, you know what, just keep it um, because gosh, you spend so much time out there walking and you get that little burst of excitement. It's kind of a major bummer to then take that little burst of excitement away. But you know, to your point, I think it's just a good idea to have that conversation up front and make sure everyone's on the same page. And um, you know, as long as there's not this like presumption and then all of a sudden someone's got an antler in the hand and you go walk up to and say, hey, give it to me, that's when things get a little ugly. So it's good to have those conversations earlier. Um, Joe, I want to UM, take a step back again, and I'm curious, can you tell us a little bit about the antler shedding process. UM, I know you mentioned that in your book a little bit, and that's something we haven't talked about before here. Can you just talk a little bit about how that happens, when that happens, specifically, like why that happens? Sure, UM, I did a lot of research on that, you know, when I was writing the book, and UM, basically kind of it comes down to UM as Uh, the light levels decrease in the fall, UM going into midwinter, bucks testosterone levels start to drop and that's kind of what puts everything in motion. UM. And those those testosterone levels dropped. UM, these cells called osteo classics, you want to really get technical, start forming at the base of the pedicle where the antler attaches to the head. And what happens eventually, UM, they kind of um devour that calcium that UM and the antlers mostly made of calcium and phosphorus. And what happens is the kelsium kind of starts to get reabsorbed into the skull. And uh, so that's why you get why the base of a shed is kind of rough. That sandpaper retexture, that's little. They call them spicules of calcium getting pulled back into the skull. And eventually, when the strands get too weak, um, the antlers just drops off and is there and sorry continue, Oh yeah, I was just gonna add. You know, it's what's kind of baffling though. I mean, you know, bucks can start dropping as late as or as early as late November and as late as May. Um, so it's a long drawn out process. Um. You know, generally most bucks are gonna shay between probably December and March. And it seems to be a seasonal or um an area specific thing to some extent, some areas that drop earlier than later. Um. But it's kind of baffling. You know, if testosterone levels are the root cause that, why why do some antlers drop you know, so early, and why are some so so late? I mean, there's a lot of mysteries we really don't know about it yet. And are there any other like external factors I've I've heard of some different external factors, but do you know of any that can cause antlers to drop earlier or later? Um, whether or health or anything like that that you've you've seen a researched. Yeah, well, health definitely can play a role to uh. A lot of times. I know, if you know, if a buck is injured or you know, gets shot or hit by a car or something. Um, a lot of times those bucks will drop early. Um. Um. You know, if he's if he's not getting enough food, he might be a little bit stressed. Um. Whether people always talk about whether stressing deer and and you know, there's probably some truth to that, but we've seen some awful severe winters where and it's prolong the low zero temperatures and deep snow, and I'll still see dear carrying in the march. So I'm not really sure about that. And you know, the question as comes up to the big bucks drop first a little bucks, and you know, I think to some extent, maybe the big bucks do drop first, But you know, there's so many exceptions that you really can't get a hard and fast rule out of any of it. Yeah, sorry, damn, where you say something. Yeah, I talked to um one of my buddies who's a deer farmer, Sam Clora, and he told me that I think in February, I think it's February, he will feed, you know, he has his deer and he feeds them and then for I think he said this, don't quote me, but come late February or early March, he will starve them for like like remove food for I think four or five days, and he's he says, without a doubt, most of the antlers fall off in that time period because of what I'm assuming is the stress from being hungry. So I don't know if you know that's just repeated, you know, basically regurgitated information. Um, don't quote me on that, but I wonder how much winter stress is the actual cause of the shedding process. It's a fascinating story. It's you know, and I could see that being true. But yeah, um, it's hard to say, but that it would certainly makes sense. Hmm. Yeah. Interesting. Um. Another thing I saw you had written, Joe that related to this issue of timing that was I found pretty interesting is that you had mentioned that you've heard somewhere or write something or something on the lines of that many bucks tend to drop their anglers at the same time of year every year, like within a few days. Is that the case? Yeah, I ran across something in the scientific research. Um, I was going through a lot of scientific stuff when I wrote it, and uh, yeah, there was you know cases where you know it's you know, Penn DearS, so they could study them closely, and uh it seemed to be pretty much, you know, basically the same day that they would shed each year, you know, within a few days. That yeah, that's that's there's all these weird factors, like to your point, Dan, there there could be like this external stress factor, but then there's also like this what should be consistent to stosterone relationship to daylight factor? And then there's also like is there some kind of genetic factor because if there's like a consistent unique date for an individual buck like man, I think, like you said earlier, Joe, there's lots of mysteries here. Um, And I guess that we all talk about. We always talk about, you know, you know, an annual pattern for dear movement. So one could assume that, you know, if they're on a pattern like Okay, this buck leaves my farm in September but comes back the last week of October every year, I would I would think that shedding could be part of that annual pattern as well. Yeah, sense, Yeah, So with all this kind of um, with all these questions around the timing of drop of antler drop? Do you have a consistent date or time frame Joe, when you think it is the best time to start shed hunting or does it depend you know, based on some of these different conditions for you when you start. Well, for me, you know, I prefer to actually go after the snow's melted. I just I like looking on the bare ground better than in the snow. UM. So if I can't, I usually try to time it after after the fact. Um. You know, I started chopping at the bit, you know, I started kind of getting that edge to um. Weather patterns take a difference to you know, we had a kind of a January thaw here where we lost you know, a lot of the snow that we did have, and then we just got three inches of snow yesterday, so that kind of affects things. Um. But you know, usually I don't usually get out until you know, I don't usually start hitting it pretty hard till March. And that's just my personal preference. And you know, not that there's not antlers to be thrown right now, and you know some guys might prefer walking in the snow, you know, if there's a lot of snow. They're either going to be right on the trails or they're going to be in a bed, or they might be out on the field someplace. But it kind of narrows it down. I find when I'm walking on snow, where I'm going down a heavy deer trail, it's like you can really fly because they're they're right there, you know there. You don't have to be scanning so much to the side. You know they're either gonna be right there or not. So, you know, I guess it just kind of depends on the individual and and what you're seeing in your area. You know, I talked to people in different areas. You know, some a guy told me in northern Illinois or northern Iowa, you know, the deer already shed um early, you know, December. Same thing out in Montana they dropped early. And then I talked to some guys in different areas and everything's holding tight until the end of February early March. So you know, if if you're seeing bucks as you're driving around or you got trail cam images, if they're still holding I mean, it doesn't really pay to to get out. You mentioned that you do some scouting What does that entell like your pre shed hunting scouting. Is it just doing a quick walk or is it glassing or what are you doing there? And why? Well? UM, a lot of times it's you know, I don't really do a whole lot of scouting for deer anymore. UM. What I would do is, you know, if the fields vailable, I drive around the fields at night and and try to see where the deer are, what they're doing. Um scouting I was talking about. Um actually really gotten looking for moose sheds in the last couple of years. It's kind of really been where I've been putting my effort. And I was out this weekend hiking around trying to just figure out establish where they're at so that I can come back in the spring. Because um, where I was looking, the snow was beyond my knees. Um, so it's gonna be pretty hard to find sheds that was on snow shoes. I was able to stay on top of it. But you know, moose drop earlier usually December, a lot of them, and so most of those scheds are gonna be buried. I didn't find any, so I just I said I was scouting, But um, it helps you to have a good starting point. You know, when in our area where there is snow, you know whether those antlers are going to be buried. You know, we can come in there in the spring and then you'll have a good idea where you should begin. Do you get a lot of roadent to so everybody wants to find the perfect shed. You know it's hasn't been chewed on by mice or squirrels or anything like that. Are you ever if you're looking for a particular buck, are you ever worried about like rodent rodents chewing on them? Or is that a problem up there in Minnesota? Well, it's it's certainly not a huge problem here compared to areas. I know areas that have a lot of oak trees and a lot of squirrels. Um, you know where they got gray squirrels and fox squirrels. That's that's where you really get your damage, I think. Um, so, if if you've got oak woods on your property, you know you're gonna want to hit those early and off. And and why I always tell people, if if that's the situation, hit the oak woods repeatedly, hit them early, and then the field you can you can leave till later, because you know, nothing should bother them out there. Um. Here we have red squirrels and they do chew on antlers, but not really to the extent that the fox squirrels and gray squirrels will. So I do find choose, Um, I'll find naws on antlers from kyotes or wolves. And uh I got one that was just a beautiful shed a few years ago that had like six inch mass measurements that was just chopped and half by either a bear or wolf. That's all I can figure it was. It wasn't shoot by a squirrel, it was it was chomped. That's crazy. Um. This whole issue of like when you get out there is always one that I'm always struggling with because they feel like it's a balancing act between you know, if you go too late, you risk you know this thing we just talked about. You know, you risk anilers getting chewed on, or you risk other people getting out there and scooping up the sheds first. But if you go too early, you could be out there in the snow and have buried sheds, or you could you know, if you go on there too much, you could end up spooking bucks away. From these areas and then you know they dropped the antlers on your neighbor. Um, So that's always like this weird balancing act I find myself trying to play. Is like figure out when's like the best time where most antlers are on the ground, but I'm not so late that I'm going to be missing out on them. Um. That seems to require a certain level of scouting, whether it be the trail cameras or like you said, glass and fields and st have to try to figure out right when the buck you're after most of the bucks are dropping. But like you said, it's always different. So I don't I don't have a good answer for that either. Yeah, no, you're exactly right. You know, people ask and they want to want you to point to a day on the calendar, and you you kind of got to be like a politician. You've gotta kind of give him a money answer because there is no absolutely answer all those factors you mentioned. You know, um, is a public ground or private ground, is there snows or not snow, or they're squirrels or they're not squirrels, and at all kind of comes into play. Have they dropped or are they still caring? You know, you gotta kind of weigh all those factors, like you said, and to make your decision based on that. So for someone who hasn't gone she hunting before, I don't know if there's any of those types of people listening to this podcast. But but if there is, if there is, Joe, what kind of like equipment or things that they need to think about bringing with them or thinking about before going shed hunting? You know, do you have some basic stuff that you always prepare before I shed on it? Well, my friends, you know me, didn't know that. I'm notoriously light time here. Um. I usually just go for a walk with flips in my pocket, my cell phone and that's about it. And about two hours into it, I'm wishing I would have brought some food or something. Um, you know, really just a good payer of hiking boots is you know, all I really need? And then you can go from there, you know, GPS or um? Are you gonna need a backpack? Are you gonna find a bunch of sheds? You know? Are you gonna need food and water? Um? That's always usually a good thing to bring, you know, depending on how long you're gonna be out there. Um, But then it just depends on your situation, you know. But ooculers canna be good if you're in uh say your glass and out in a Sybian field or lf delfa field or something like that. Um, if you're in a wooded area where I do a lot of my shed hunting, I never used my noculers or because it's just they're not practical. Um, cameras, but everybody's got a phone these days because everybody wants to take a picture of the shed as they found it, which is cool. Um. And then it just depends from there. You know, you might be riding an a TV across a Swabian field or something, or it just kind of gets into a specialized situations. But you really don't need a lot of gear, but um, you may do with what you need. Yeah, I'll add toilet paper. Yeah, forget that where you walk out of the woods with one sleeve on your shop exactly how would I forget that? Yeah? I forgot that when we're talking. It means I forget it when we're when I'm shut hunting too. Yeah, you never want to be in that position, all right, So we're ready to go shed hunting. We brought our TP and our boots. Um. I'm curious, Joe, when you start out on a property, do you have like a plan in place to attack that property on that day? Like do you know, Okay, I'm gonna go to a spot and be that spot and see this spot or do you just start walking Willie Neely? Like, what's your process of breaking down a property? Well, you know some of that where you're scouting comes into play. If you've been driving around and seeing deer at night and fields or have trail camera picks, you know, you kind of know where the deer are were wintering and uh, you know that can change seasonally. They might be in a different spot in in January than they were during a hunting season. You need to remember that. Um. But as far as that um, it comes down to one figuring out, you know, the productive ground and to trying to eliminate the unproductive ground. Um. You know there's gonna just be areas of of a property that aren't really gonna hold deer. Um. I always think about a spotlight the shed hunt and there's a little ash forest in there, and they just don't seem to spend any time in there. And so if I can eliminate that ground. I can kind of say, Okay, I'm gonna focus most of my time on the more productive ground. Um, so I'll just try to hit the you know, it depends on how much time you have to who I mean, if I've got all day to dedicate to it, you know, I can take the liberty to you know, hit the best spots first and then kind of just go down the list from there. Becau if I've only got a couple of hours, I'm going to try to go right to the very best spot I've got and excellentze my time. Yeah, yeah, definitely that That seems to be what a lot of the best shut hunters I know do. It's it's really prioritize those best spots, spend the majority of your time there, and um, you know, if you can focus more time in the good spots, then you're definitely gonna have a higher percentage of success. But then that natural leads to the question of what are the best spots? So what do you view as as productive ground? What kind of things are you looking for? Well, you know, in the simplest terms, I mean, you are going to be either betting, feeding, or traveling between those two areas in the wintertime, so you can kind of narrow down to those three types of things. You know, it might be farm fields, it might be uh, haystacks. It could be you know, just um forest brows, could be the feeding areas, UM, betting areas. UM. It could be a good thick cover. It could be some conifers, you know, some pine trees or something that provides some shelter from the wind catches the snow holds it up in the branches. UM. But a lot of people don't realize too, is that sometimes the best bedding cover is a lack of cover. UM. And that's where the south facing hillsides come into play. UM. That's always a really good spot to look for shed because that's the area that gets the most direct sunlight in the winter. And you'll find if if you're in a snowy region like I live, UM, the north slope will have a lot more snow than the south side because the sun's beaten down and melting it. And a deer is a lot like a cat. Like there's you know, like a cat sit in a window soaking up that sunlight. A deer is going to do the same thing. It's it's trying to survive. It's you know, it's trying to conserve body heat and and a lot of times little bet on that self slope and sometimes east slope as well, trying to take advantage of that morning sun too. Um. So those are things that looked or I guess in general, um, you know good feeding, good food sources, um, south slope of hills. Um, you know betting areas that might be you know, thick cover like pine trees like I said, or a thick brush. It just kinda depends you focus ever on, like fence crossings or creep crossings or I guess where do you typically find a majority of your sheds. Yeah, well the fence and creek thing as you mentioned, I'm sure you know is um they're jumping that obstacle offense or the creek and and on impact they can lose on the antler um. And I have found sheds lane right and creeks before. Um. Everybody talks about the fence crossing. The actually only found very few sheds a fence crossings, but they do occur. Um. I guess I don't look a lot of along a lot of fence lines. Sorry, fence lines either. But you know, most of my sheds um, and it comes into areas I searched to where I live, we don't have agricultural fields, so everything is looking in the forest. Um. So then you know your your food source really can be pretty much anywhere. It's not a really defined area. So as a shed hunter, I kind of I am a bed oriented UM person. I look for dear beds. I look for areas where they're you know, either defined bed in one particular spot or maybe like a ridge line where they're going to bed all along that ridge. That's kind of how I look. And I know I've shed hunter with other people and we have we have different styles and it kind of comes down to what we're used to. Guys are more agricultural areas are going to be more likely to you know, look those field edges or whatever. And you know, you kind of start with what you know, but you should be willing to adapt to different situations as well, right, Yeah, speaking of like locations one um on the on the bedding area set of things, one kind of randomly popped in my head that UM and I gotta say, Joe, UM, taking a step back here, When I first got into shed hunting. Um, I don't know eight years ago or nine years ago or whatever it was. Now, Um, I did pick up your book and I read it and it definitely helped me. And I think I read this in your book originally, and now I've seen it play out in my own lifetime and time again. When you're on a hillside or in a forest or something and you have like an individual conifer tree, an evergreen tree by itself, I've seen so many times that those are the spots where a buckle bed and you find a shed there, you know, that little cedar tree or something by itself and some tall grass or something. I always zoom over to those locations if ever I see one, because that seems to be like one of those little wild card spots kind of where um, you know, it's like the spot within the spot, like it's a betting area. But then that specific spot within the betting you tamp tends to be that isolated bedding tree or something. Um, do you find that kind of thing still too? Yeah? You you definitely nail it right on the head. Um. If I could pick out like my ideal spot to find a ship, it would be like a one lone conference. You know, hardwood forest on a south slope of a hill. You know it's and if you think about it, um, if you know trappers are really good at reading the landscape, you think about your own hunting situation. How many times have you've been walking through the woods where it's maybe hardwood or something. There's one big tall white pine in that hardwoods and I guess what somebody's gonna stand hanging in that tree. You know, it stands out. I mean people relate to it, animals relate to it. You know, you'll find bones underneath these trees where a fox or a coyote is sat there and just chewed on a bone. I mean, it's something that sticks out from the landscape. It's it's not just dear to pick up. But yeah, you're absolutely right. Those those bucks with a lot of their way to better than the nast that lone tree or just a few scattered pines here and there in an otherwise hardwood forest. Yeah. The issue of those spots is that they really stand out visually. So like when there's a group of like three or four of us walking through the woods, we all see that little cluster or seeds or something. You can tell, everyone's pace picks up and everyone wants to get there first. I wish that that wasn't so well known now. But it's funny how so many times, like you can, at least obviously it's the the vast minority of the time, but lots of times you can call it. You can see these spots coming up and like, Okay, if we're going to find a shed on this property, it's probably going to be in this little patch or underneath these couple of trees or something. And so many times, I mean, it does happen. So it's it's interesting how these patterns emerged. Like you said, it's just like understanding how deer relate to cover from hunting standpoint, they relate to these certain things and features, you know, when we're trying to look for the anglers, because it's it's just basically where do they bed, where they spending their time, because that's where they end up dropping these So it's interesting to see. You know, one thing too, one thing I was gonna say too, is like it kind of goes in uh in line with your deer hunting to um. You know, when I started deer hunting, you know, I learned what I could, and and I did what I you know, I just thought was natural and read books and magazines and watch shows and stuff. But you start shed hunting, and in order to be successful at shed hunting, it really forces you to understand how these deer relate to the landscape, how they travel, and why they travel where they're at. And uh, the more she hunting you do, the more you'll become a better deer hunter. And nowadays, you know, when I walk in the woods, I can just kind of look in some areas and and say they're going to be here, and they're not gonna be there, you know. And I can come in there in the springtime and I know that without seeing tracks in the snow or anything, because you just kind of develop a feel for it. I'm not saying I'm right all the time. I've certainly been wrong before, but you really develop a feel for how dear travel and it's really gonna benefit you during hunting season as well. Yeah, I was gonna ask how much you know, how much do you think shed hunting helps with your actual hunting. Is there anything else that you pay attention to while you shed hunt that you try to apply back to the hunting season, Like, are you do you take let's say you find the antlers of a buck that you be interested and hunting the next year, do you take that into account the next year when hunting him. Do you think that's applicable at all or anything like that? Oh? Absolutely, you know, it depends on your area. UM where I live, a lot of the deer will will shift a round seasonally between fall and in winter, so they're not necessarily going to be in the same spot. But depending on your dear graphic region, I mean absolutely it plays into account. Yeah, it's I think to your point, it just depends on if that dear behavior changes dramatically postseason or from the season to post season. But but yeah, I've seen some situations where you find sheds and you get a good idea of where they're spending their time in the late season, and you know, that's definitely applicable if you've got a hunting season that goes into late December early January. UM, that kind of thing so definitely helpful. When so we know to focus on these types of spots, you know, focus on the productive regions, betting areas, feeding areas, travel corridors between to UM. But when you're actually out there walking. What kind of advice do you have for people to actually help you see more sheds and actually spot more sheds, Because it's one thing to know where you should be looking, it's another thing to actually find them. How do you how do you get better at that? Okay, that's a good questions. Uh. Well, the first thing, and it sounds simple, but I always tell people to keep their eyes on the ground because the first couple of times that I go out for the year, I'll be seeing deer. You know, I'll be I'll be in deer hunting moment. I'll be looking, you know, three ft off the ground trying to see a deer when I need to keep my eyes on the ground. And it's something you really have to consciously tell yourself. I'll go with a budding and he'll be like, did you see that rub? And I'll be like, what rubbed? Because I wasn't looking at you know. Um, it's not that extreme all the time. I mean, I certainly rubs and stuff, but you really need to be looking at the ground. Um, and that's where they're gonna be. Um. And it sounds simple, but until you you know what people always talk about throwing an antler out and and looking for or if you're with a buddy and he finds a shed, maybe he doesn't touch it, and you come and find it. And until you kind of get in that situation, it's it's kind of like catching a fish. Until you feel that how a wal I bite, then you kind of understand it. And once you find that first shed, then something seemed to click, and all of a sudden, after that it becomes easier. You know, the same thing. The first set of the years, it always seems to be hard because you're just not in that zone. And once once you see it, it clicks in your mind and then you start realizing he's like, okay, I'm looking for times sticking up out of the grass, and you know it might not be a whole antler, it might be something behind the log or bury in grass or something, and maybe just looking for a couple of inches of that time sticking out, and you start to kind of train your eye to see it and develop a feel for what you you should really be looking for. Do you other weather condition that you really like to hunt in? She hunting well, you know, but everybody else says the cloudy days are best because you're not squinting. And and after a rain, because the mats down the grass and the leaves and and uh makes a little bit of a shine on the amph. Everybody talks about that, but it is hard to look into a in the sunshine. You certainly want to keep your the sun at your back if you can. Um, I guess I I go whenever I can, But ideally, you know, a cloudy day after a rain would be the best conditions, alright, Joe, sunglasses or no sunglasses. I don't really wear sunglasses very often when I'm shed hunting. And it's just a totally matter of personal preference. You know, everybody's got their own, uh, you know, opinions of what's best for them. Um. And one thing about the sunglasses, when you're in a brush the area, it's probably not a bad idea to be wearing it, because I know I've had so many sticks jabbed in my face before that. You know, I'm just lucky that I hadn't poked my eye or something. But it's just all on personal preference. Yeah, I struggle with because I like on those bright days where you know you're squinting, your eyes hurt. I want to put sunglasses on. But I have this like voice in the back of my head that says, like something with like the lens is tinting your ability to see the sheds, They're not going to pop out to you as much. So I start wondering, like, am I hurting my ability to see these things? So I'm trying them on, trying them off, squinting not squinting, what's worse? Um, I find myself getting crazy sometimes. Well, you know you can find them whistlunglasses. You can find them without sunglasses. So I guess it's just whatever you like that maybe I should wear sunglasses. Then I just have something to blame for why I don't find sheds and I'll feel better about it. Are always good? Yeah? Um what about like do you do you have any like specific And I know this is going to depend on like the amount of cover or terrain, but like if you're walking up property by yourself, let's say, like how much what's the spacing? Like how many times do you need to walk through an area? Is like three ten yards? Is every fourty or fifty yards that you need a space to try to say like to know that you covered a spout well do you have any like generic typical gaps that you tend to walk in area to cover it? Well, I guess it really depends on you know that I feel like a broken record. It depends on so many things. You know, every situation depends. Um. You know, if you're walking out in a picked corn field or something like that, you might be taking a you know, just a few rows at the time, and you know, the thicker the cover, the tight of the pass is. Um. You know, if I'm in the woods or something, or or walk on a ridge line, I'm probably just gonna walk that ridge line once, maybe maybe a couple of times. I'll usually walk that south face and sometimes in the north face to um a little bit more towards the top. But yeah, it just depends on the cover, how thick it is. If if you're in oak woods, it's relatively open, you can you can see farther. And if you're in some some real tight brush, some dogwood or something like that, you're gonna need to make some tighter passes. So everything depends. Yeah, you know, very true. You know. Another thing I've I've sometimes done and heard other people suggest is trying to find like different perspectives, like even if you've walked through an area once and it seems like you saw everything, Like sometimes it's a good idea to stand on top of a stump or kneel down and look around. Do you ever do that kind of thing just to try to see things at a different angle or anything? Um? Yeah, you know a lot of guys talk about walking behind or looking behind him once in a while as well. And and sometimes you'll see a shed that you walk right by him. Maybe the sun was in your eyes, or there's a branch in your way or something that caused you to not be able to see it. Um. But sometimes you know, I've certainly found sheds that I've walked within feet of and uh I came back you know, on another path through there, just you know, by a chance or whatever, and and hear that antler's lane right there? It was, you know it is maybe you know, behind a fallen log or something like that. Um. Or maybe sometimes you just were looking left when you should have been looking right, you know. Um, that's another consideration. It's how fast you walk. Um. I was trying to not walk faster than my eyes can see. You know, if you're sweeping back and forth left and right with your eyes. If you're looking left, you got to make sure that you're you're not walking so fast that you haven't had a time to bring that vision back to the right before you keep moving. And again, if it's real open terrain, you can walk a little faster, and if it's tight woods you cover, then you can need to walk a little slower. Yeah, that's a good point. Do you ever do you ever walk a whole property or whole section twice or like come back a week later, specifically because of this fact that you know you're inevitably probably going to miss some definitely, um you know, especially if you're really looking for a particular shed. Um you know, sometimes you just flat out and miss him, and and you'll find a shed that you know, we were within a few feet of it before and somehow you just missed it. Or I mean I've even you know, people, it sounds ridiculous, but I'm out there looking for sheds. I've stepped on shed that I've kicked sheds and you'd think you'd see it. But uh, yeah, I'll definitely come back, especially if there's something I'm really looking for, um, you know, and like you were saying earlier. Sometimes it's a good idea to come from a different angle and see things from a different perspective too, so um, or you know, bring a buddy along and maybe they'll see something in a different way that you. You know, something that you missed. Yeah, yeah, very true. Well, Dan, what's the biggest Yeah, I got a question, what's the biggest shed you ever found? Well, you know, I haven't really found a whole lot of real big sheds, Delia. True. Um. Most of the bulkal of sheds I find are from you know, dealing box or two year old bucks, just because that's mostly what's around. Um. The biggest one I've ever got was a seventy eight in shed I've fallen up in sasketchwanted Danny Coban's um and that's the one that time to cover my book, And that was two thousand six and I haven't beaten it. Well, that's a heck of a shed. That's awesome. What's your book mine? I think I it's sitting right above me in my office. I can't remember if it's seventy seven or seventy four inches. It's a good shed. What was that one you found on the proper the property that one day when we were hunting. Yeah, that's still my biggest. I think that was sixty four and a half inches. Is that right? Sounds like it sounds like I think that's what it was, right, So what we're gonna ask that? Dude? Uh so that was your biggest? Now, how what's the most you found in one day? The most I've ever found one day? It was twenty. The sad part is the guy was I've only had one day of shed hunting and it was a day I didn't bring a backpack where I had to leave a pile. I found eleven. I think that was my best day, and they nothing worth bragging about from a size standpoint, but I remember having to make a pile at a fence opening and then continue the walk and then hopefully uh all my way back. I had to stop at the truck and then go all the way back because it was just kind of it was just awkward to carry them all. It's a good problem to have, I know, it wasn't. No, Oh my gosh, I'd like have a heart attack. I think if I ended a day with twenty sheds, that's insane. Are you willing to share what state that was. Yeah, that was that was a Saskatchewan. Yeah. The kicker was that day. Um, I had found six all day and we were we just got into another area where the guy was with it sound some sheds. He said, let's go over there for the last last hour of the day. And I didn't have a backpacker. Only at the out for an hour. I found fourteen in an hour I had. I had three mulder SAIDs that were actually off from the same buck. I had a set from the mule deer and then a previous side for that buck. And he was about a seventy in you know, they were about seventy inch sides. And I had I had a spike shoved in my pocket. I had a couple of you know, reeling buck antlers in my pockets. I had browton you know antlers hanging from the brown tigns on my pockets and my belt loops and and uh and I had them all carried in front of me because I didn't have a backpack and there was a sight to see it was. It was a fun hour. Have you hunted it? Shed hunted in Saskatchewan a lot. I've been up there three times, Um, I'm also done with Bentley Coben and uh, you know, it's it's amazing, like the the number of sheds and the trophy potentially you know, that's where the handsome buck came from. And um, it's just tremendous pencil up there for trophy size and numbers and uh, it's it's really something. Now I've heard this from some of my buddies who are they they travel to go shed hunting, but they don't necessarily have the rodent problem up in certain parts of Canada, so they're they're not gonna get chewed on. And they were telling me that they went on like a four day shed hunt once and they stumbled across this old alf alpha field and they found I think it was like thirty two sheds. Like no one had shed hunted this area for several several years, and they found like thirty two sheds on this uh on on this one field, and they found multiple years of the same bucks. So I think they said they found three matching deer and then you know, you look at him, you see the characteristics, and they believe that to be the same buck for three years in a row, all dropped in this field have you ever ran into a scenario like that. What did you say that still was? I think I think it what they think they said it was. It was either in Saskatchewana or Alberta. That's pretty awesome, really, um found Yeah, like I was saying earlier, when I found out at the big young their mats sets, um, they were tending to apart and the one side from the previous years a hundred yards away. UM. I found buddy of mine, Dan Hess, when you're out in Montana one year, he found three years in a row on the same three left sides in a row on the same walk, all within like a hundred or two hundred yards. Um. I found uh, one bucket shed under the same tree, two years in a row, so it certainly had UM. I don't know if it's commoner or not, but yeah, it certainly does happen. That would be pretty awesome to find. I n one last question about like the crazy things. UM, how how often have you let's say you scoured an area right and you're like, okay, I've I'm sure I have found a shed, every shed off this property. It's it's maybe March, even late March, and then the next year you come back and you find a year old shed. Yeah, it definitely happens. Um sometimes it's it seems unbelievable that you could spend that much time looking and and not find them, but it certainly happens, and you know the saving graces. Following year, they start to bleach out in the sun a little bit, so they do get whiter and they do get a little bit easier to see. But it is amazing how how hard you can look when not find an antler. I hate that. It's like, how how is this possible that we didn't find this handler? There's a there's a man. She hunning is like I have a love hate relationship with it, Like there's so much exciting and awesome about it, but then there's so many things that can be frustrating about it. And you're like, oh my gosh, I've walked for twenty hours, my feet are bleeding. How come I haven't seen a single shed? And then my buddy who's like thirty yards away has found like ten of them. Like I feel like it's one of those weird things where even if you're doing everything right, sometimes there's definitely a big piece of luck involved that it's sometimes gonna be going in your favor, and sometimes it's just not gonna happen. Absolutely. You know, when I've gone out, you know with guys are good shed hunters, and you know a couple of guys will have a really good day and one guy get skunked, and I know that guy's a good shed hunter, and sometimes that guys me. But yeah, there's definitely a luck factor. Yeah that's the truth. So Joe, we're wrapping up on time here. But if there's one single thing that want to either add that we haven't talked about yet or that you want to reiterate for our listeners, like the single most important thing to help people find more sheds. What with that one thing you'd want to leave people with, Well, I think you know, do some scoutings, find out where the bucks are hanging and and make sure you're in an area with bucks. You know, if you're looking on public ground, it's heavily hunted. It's it's an an uphill battle because there's just not going to be a lot of bucks. And then when you get on that good piece of ground, look for those loan evergreen trees, look for south facing hillsides, and and that's a real good start to find some sheds. I certainly agree. So if people want to pick up your book or learn more about what you've got going on, is there anywhere they can find that online? Yeah, they can go to my website go shud hunting dot com, or they can like go shut hunting on Facebook. Perfect. We will make sure to link that, and uh, I think on that note, I'm I'm about ready to go shed hunting myself. So thank you Joe for taking this time with us and sharing everything you've learned. Yeah, well, thanks for having me, guys, and that will be it first today. Real quick though, I want to give you all a little update. We record this original interview a few days ago, but last night, that bill we talked about in the beginning to sell off three point three million acres of public lands, it was taken out of consideration and killed. And it happened because of you guys, hunters and anglers and climbers and campers and all sorts of other outdoor enthusiasts. We all rallied together on this one, and all those emails and phone calls and social media posts, it all made a difference. And I'm really encouraged by this. I think it's a great example of what we can do in the outdoor community when we come together and let our voice be heard for the good of our wild life and our wild places. But I also just want to remind you too that this is just a small battle in a much bigger war against our public lands. There are going to be many, many more bills and proposals like this coming down the pipeline, you know, as our current sitting Congress has it in their public list of priorities to sell off our public lands. So be sure to keep your ear to the ground, and when you hear more attempts like this, give them hell and let these politicians know that public lands belong in public hands. And with that we will now officially wrap it up by thinking our partners to help keep this podcast on the air. So thanks to sit Gear, Yetie Cooler's Ozonics, Breadnick Blinds, may Haven Optics, White Tail, Institute of North America, Carbon Express, and huntera Maps. And finally, thank you for being with us today, Thanks for giving a damn about hunting and our wild life and our wild places, and thank you for staying wired to hunt