00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number one Tay in the show. I'm joined by Pat Reeve of Driven TV, and we're going to be discussing his tactics for hunting mature bucks in hilly country and much more. All Right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sick Gear. And as I just mentioned, we've got Pat Reeve with us on the show today, and during this conversation we'd discussed his experiences hunting the bluff country of Wisconsin and Minnesota and a whole lot more. But unfortunately, due to some technical difficulties, we actually lost most of the introduction to this conversation in which we heard about Pat's background. So with that being the case, here's the really short cliff notes version. Pat started out as a guide for bluff country outfitters in Wisconsin's Buffalo County, and then he went on to produce the North American Whitetailed television show and then finally his own show, Driven TV with Pat and Nicole. So Pat's hunted all across the country, but his roots and tons of his experiences is in this hilly country, and so that's what most of our conversation today is focused on. That said, though, we're going to keep this intro short and get you right into that discussion. But quickly before we get to that, we need to pause to thank our partners at Sick of Gear for their support of this podcast. And today we have a sit story from Matt McCormick, a friend of mine and a hunter and photographer out of Montana who recently went on his first Midwestern white tailed bow hunt in southern Ohio, and right at the end of this trip, after a lot of long days on stand, finally a big bodied, heavy horned buck appeared headed right his way, and Matt describes the moments that followed. At this point, I can't shoot him, so I calmed myself down. But the presence of him was unlike anything I've ever felt before. Everything was just dead, calm, you know, even them just walking around was so quiet because there was dew on the ground, and I just I just felt like he knew I was there the whole time, and and he never really made any movements that that said that he knew I was there. I just felt like, I don't know, it's just the weirdest thing. I don't know if that was a feeling. It was just like the weirdest feeling that I've ever felt before. I've never felt anything like it with him that close right behind me. And so he's pushing these doors around and grunting and and he runs down the hill and runs back up and and you know, so he runs basically runs away, and I'm I'm just like, gosh, that was awesome. And then he runs back and oh, he's back again. And then that went back and forth for you know, like I said, ten maybe even fifteen minutes. And then finally I'm watching him and he runs these two doughs and he's running him right at me, and they split, and when they split, one is coming right at me, and he's She's gonna come right out from the spruce tree right into my opening. And that's exactly what happened. The doe came through his opening, the buck followed, and Matt came to full draw. But in the hue of the moment, and Matt stuck trying to pick whether aim for thirty five yards or forty. He let the arrow go and watched this sail past the buck, and the deer ran off untouched, and then the buck stopped and turned back, and so we shared this moment of like him and I both staring at each other. I can see him, he knows I'm there, but he can't see me. And he's just stomping his foot and stomping his foot and stomping his foot, and this doe kind of bounded off. She saw the whole thing go down, but she never blew. She just kind of ran and we just stared at each other, which felt it felt like it was ten minutes where we just stood there and stared at each other, and eventually she blew. She blew out in front of me, and he just does this top jumpree turn in the air and just starts bounding away and just blows and blows and blows and and and he was gone. And that's when I started in to shake the most. We shared this moment and then he left, and for about a minute or two, I I kind of question what really just happened? How did I you know, there's all sorts of things going and going through my mind, Um, you know where did I hit? How did I? How did I miss? That? Opening? Must not have been big enough. What an incredible experience. Oh my gosh, I dear it was a giant and watching him run away was like a like an image in a in a you know, any sort of magazine that you see where you just see these giant deer running away and and then I started shaking bad and it got worse before it got better. I can certainly relate to that feeling right there. So, as mentioned, this was a sick a story as Matt was wearing sick As white Tail system on this hunt, and in fact, if you take a look at sick of gear social media catalogs or website, you're likely to see many of Matt's photos there as well. If you'd like to learn more about sick of Gear for yourself, you can visit si gear dot com. Next, I also want to quickly let you know about an another limited time promotion from our partners at HUNTERA Maps, who now through December four are offering off all of their maps. And you've likely seen hunter As Maps in our videos and articles, but if not, you need to check these out. They have full blown wall size maps, smaller field maps, magnetize maps, and everything in between that include high quality aerial imagery of your property along with top old lines, three D shading, the shows, terrain features, and even the option to add custom markups for food plots and other habitat work. So if you'd like to pick up a map of your own property or want to get one of these for a Christmas gift for a friend or family member, now is the time to do it, as this off promotion lasts from now till December four, so head on over to huntera dot com to check that out. And now back to the show. And as I mentioned earlier, we're going to be dropping right into the middle of this conversation as pat Reeve and I discussed his experiences hunting white tails in hill country. So so speaking of the how to stuff, I kind of want to go back in time to what you were doing early on when you were working with Bluff Country Outfitters and Tom, and I've heard a lot of great things about what Tom's done there, and it sounds like you were probably involved with that too. What did you learn about hunting in that kind of terrain at that point? You know that Bluff Country, hilly. You know, the Driftless area of Wisconsin. What's hunting like there? Well, you know, of course, I grew up in this country, so I learned early on. Um, you know a lot about hunting in the Driftless area or the bluff Country area. Um. After I've got a chance to hunt around the world for white tails, I have soon to realize that actually this bluff country can be the hardest place to hunt mature box. Um. And and there's there's plenty of them here. Don't give me wrong, long but there's a couple of things why this country is very hard to hunt versus Saint Iowa, Illinois, m ar Kansas. It's in a lot of it has to do with the topography or the train and this area is like very hilly. In the box, big mature buck knows how to use that train to his advantage. He knows how to bed in it. You know, it's how they get visuals. Um. Of course, when when hunting, the wind is terrible for the most parts, so you're always fighting wind issues and constant swirling winds because the hills create that vortex and you create all this swirling effect and a lot of times you know, you get busted as you're trying to hunt the deer. Um. So it's it's a tricky proposition to hunt this versus you know, like I said, you're hunting in Illinois, you're hunting in Iowa's flatter ground, true or ends, Um, the winds are more consistent there, so you know up here it's a lot different. Of course, you know deer I said, they bed in certain spots where you know, they'll bed with the wind at their back, where they're laying out on a ridge or on a point, and then they can see anything that might be belonged. So any sense of danger that they smell or see, they're instantly, you know, one hop they're completely out of sight and gone. They're just that's how easy it did from and they learned that as they get older, believe me. Um. But back working for Tom kind of rewinding. You know, one of the things that really helped me or may you know fine tune my hunting skills was that every day were taken out, I was taken out, you know, four to six hunters per person. Tom would take some and I would put them in tree stands. A I hung specifically for a reason, Um, they became I was like a computer base. I mean, those people were out there just like I would be, only they were sitting in you know, and strategy points that I thought would put them in the best hunting situation. And they would come back and of course tell me what they seen, how the deer were traveling. And I learned really quick what worked and what didn't because it was like six a meal out there every day, so, you know, and then tom of course we've strategized on what was, you know, what the deer were doing, and over the course of time, we really learned that. I mean, you really had to transition with the deer um, the deer movements, their habits, what affects their movements, whether it's moon, the acorns, water, food, whatever, there's pressure, there's a lot of things that change deer habits and deer movement. And I've obviously I've learned that over the years, and that in guiding, obviously it was a big portion of that. And you know, but I still go out there thinking I gotta figured out and I'm still learning. So I'm not going to pretend that I know it all for sure, because I don't. They still get you every day and of course, and weren't. I mean, we do this for a living, so we have to be out there. We can't, you know, a lot of times wait for the perfect day to go hunting, and neither can a lot of other people they can relate to that because they have vacation slotted for a certain time and and and they gotta pick pick their week to take off and to go hunting for the entire week. And so you know, they don't have in all luxury of being able to hunt all the time either. So in our situation, we're often going on to the next date because Minnesota, here you get one deer or a year, so that obviously it's not going to help you make twenty original episodes. Uh shoot deer. So we we gotta move and we gotta get to the next next state. So we we try to target hunting our state and other states at the right times. And that's what other people should do too. If you're traveling or going out of state. He's just figuring out that proper, that the best time to be there. How well, each state is different. Like I just like we talked about earlier, Um, I know, if I take my son to on a youth hunt to Kansas early season. The odds are he's gonna probably shoot a big mature buck on a food source early on because the deer is just on a pattern. Um and and you can you can get on them. Like most people you know that love white tails are out watching deer early season, coming out to you know, bell falsi fields, being bean fields, whatever they're they're watching these deer all summer and if they could go hunt them, they would kill him, especially if they had a firearm in their hands. No different than going to Kansas early season. So um, that's one of them things where I know that that's high probability. Now of course that's not for me because I can't. We don't have the luxury. But they make that for the youth to get them youth started and involved in a positive hunting situation. And it works before the schools really kick off and get started. And there's some great hunting opportunities, and anybody's thinking about youth hunting should think about going to Kansas in the future. There's, of course, there's a lot of public hunting opportunity. There more better public hunting for big white tales than any other state in the entire United States. And it's because they offer public at a program called walk in Hunting for the public, but it's on private lands. Um, there's thousands of thousands of acres enrolled in that program and makes that opportunity for very good So and of course the state is covered with big white tails, you know, all the way from north southeast west. I mean there there's a big deer everywhere there. So, um, something somebody should think about. Of course, that that goes all the way throughout the entire season. I mean whether archer and you just want to go out there, I mean, great hunting opportunity, but you do have to draw a tag tag draw situations, not over the counter like Minnesota, Wisconsin. So anyways, I mean, you know, picking these spots are really what ultimately becomes a challenge for us because the rut happens just for a short period of time and in our season is so tight. If if the deer rutted, you know, three quarters of the year half the year, boy be a much different situation. But we're talking, we're gonna make hey for about a three week period and then it's over for the rut. And mean, and then your courser chances start to dwindle unless you focus in on those early season opportunities and then late season opportunities of mother nature, you know, curse your way. So um, you know, our season just give you a kind of a roundown of course, like our early season starts. You know, like I said, in Kansas a lot of times, Um we go there. I've hunted North Dakota early for velvet deer before. That's it. It's always been a good opportunity. They've had some winter die off here in the last several years that kind of knocked the populations back. I know that people hunt Missouri early. Um. Sometimes, Um, there's Kentucky starts real early. Of course, velvet opportunity there. There's certain states that open earlier and others like Iowa on and open until October one. Um believe Illinois is the same way. So some of these states don't open until a little bit later on. Of course, Minnesota's Johnson is the middle of September for archery season. So um, finding these states that have those early early seasons is is key. Now when as as the early season kind of transpires into that October period, of course, we hit that lull October low period, and that gets even trickier because now the deer lull out and we're kind of we're entering that period right now here in the in Minnesota. I was hunting last night and with a good friend of mine, Jeff Jannis, who plays for the Packers, were actually at Tom's place last night, and the deer are you know, last week, they were more visible on food plots and now they're becoming last and we're counting on cameras to kind of tell that story somewhat. And also we're, you know, coming off a full moon period too, so that's that's another thing that kind of adds into the equation. But um, yeah, I saw a lot of deer last night eating acorns. We're sitting right on the edge of acorns and a food source and and a waterhole as well, so you know, I saw a lot of deer in the inside of the woods eating white oaks, white oak acorns. So that's what's right now affecting deer movements and in affecting it in a big way. And of course we hear October lall. You know, it's a very common phrase, but it's really that the deer movements are very minimal deer don't have to move in the Midwest, you know, in Minnesota, Wisconsin right now, very far especially in our country, because they can stand up out of their bed, can eat their primary food source, which is acorns right now, and not take five steps and lay and fill up and lay back down and not have There's no travel to and from their bed to their food source like there is later on. So right now, with the acorns being on the ground, they're going to gorge and that's what they're going to primarily eat for the most part. So how do you hunt during that kind of situation where there's a little movement and you have to get I imagine that at least for me, the challenge is always how do you get in there to hunt that food that's also so close to where they bed without spooking them? Very tricky. How will we do it? There's a couple of ways. If you're gonna go and hunt acorn ridges and acorn trees, mass acorn, you know, tree crop trees that really are producers um and and it can be effective, but the odds of you spooking that deer running that deer out of there very high. So here's what we do. I mean, I'll go in there and hunt when there's a you know, a fair amount of noise in the woods which is created by wind rain element that really buffers your sound and movement. So you can get into a tree without blowing everything out. And you know, I mean wind and rain is about the only time to do that. If you go on in a quiet day, you're gonna probably probably blow things out of there. So you know, trickier, trickier time to hunt. Um. But a lot of times we use wind rain weather to our advantage. Of course, in the bluff country we use that same thing if we're hunting low. UM. A lot of times if it's real windy, you know, bottom fields or bottom areas become more affective because deer don't like that wind as much. They'll go down in those lower lower areas and they might feed at the bottom of the ridges or go out of those bottom fields at night. But then you deal with wind issues a little bit, so um as time transpires later on, of course, all the leaves are off the tree, and hunting low can be tricky because if you're gonna walk up a valley system and you're gonna be exposed, you're gonna be you know, out in the wide old and you want a weather element helps kind of cut that visibility issue for them, for them spotting you walking or getting into your your stand location, so you know, sleep, snow, rain, whatever really helps UH to hunt those low low area times. And we learned that you know, a long time ago, so um that that you know, that's one of our tricks. Another thing um that we do and we do it. I think one of the probably the biggest things that really affects our success here is not I mean, and I think if I talked to a lot of people and they show me that they show me a picture of a big deer and they're like, you know, I had this big deer on camera a lot, and I know he lives there. He's very residential. We got lots of photos of them. But every time I go and hunt him, I don't see them what's going on? And it's pretty simple. I think that the biggest thing is he's they're tipping. They're tipping that deer off that they're hunting him, and he of course changes his pattern or his his travel plans and doesn't come their way simply because they've already alerted them that they're in the woods. So you gotta be you gotta think a little bit like a deer. You gotta you gotta figure try to figure out how to get in there, you know, quietly, and get set up on him and not alarm any other deer. And sometimes it might not be alarming that deer, but you might blow some those out of there that ron take off running through the woods and NFL box bedded off. You'll figure out something spooked them. Deer ain't gonna get up and start walking that way later on, an hour later, or if he hears a deer blowing off in that direction, he's gonna avoid danger. He knows. Even a squirrel barking sometimes to them as is dangerous. So um, those little things can make a big difference. And trying to figure out how to use that rain um and and getting in and getting set up on them without tipping them off can be very crucial. How do we do it? There's a couple of different ways. But in the Midwest here, if I have the opportunity to have somebody driving me to my tree stand, whether it's in an a TV car, vehicle, whatever, dropped me off and then leave, that's the best case scenario because they're used to vehicles, they're used to machinery, they're used to those noises, and it doesn't present a danger to them. They pay attention to it, I think when they're betted or nearby, but then after the sound leaves, then they go back to their normal travel patterns or normal routine, so you know, and then we don't leave any scent behind. That's also very crucial. But if we have to walk to them stands, because they may they can. You cannot have somebody drop you off for for on one reason or another. I've even went to the extent where I have a guy walk in with me and then we get in the stand and then I have that person walk out. So if they're paying attention to hearing that walking, then they think gamesers come and damesers left. And that's that's worked as well for us sometimes to trick them. You know. One of the other things. If I don't have that luxury where more most people don't, they help by themselves. I just make sure that I make a stealthy, quiet, stand approached travel corridor to my location. If I'm hunting the interior into the woods, and that means clearing a trail, clearer debris all the way to the dirt. So when I walk in there, I don't break a twig at all, um and and try to you know, you know, use it again, use the train to your advantage, whether it's a ditch. Um. You know, keeping out of any visual sight of those dear is just trying to avoid tipping them off. You When do you actually go and make those kinds of trails, Well, I mean, obviously if we have the luxury, and now that changes if if I have a piece of via permission for a particular piece of property, or I own a particular piece of property, I'm gonna hang stands. I'm gonna do it well in events. Um, usually that's in the spring. We hang them and then we'll go in there and just check on them, you know, during the summer. About a month prior to the hunting started, Like I have had my tree stands trim tong and everything like two months ago, already here in Minnesota. So they're they're dialing and ready to go. Um, because I know my food sources and where you know, I'm going to kind of target the deer. Um. I also let now you know, over the course of the year. So we years learned a couple of things. Um, I like the deer, you know, to have I let the deer really have a lot of the timber for themselves, and I kind of hunt them on the outside. Now I let the deer come to me. And I learned that by hunting in Illinois with guys that that don't step a foot in their timber ever, and they kill big bucks consistently, And I'm like, how do you do that. I grew up in an area where I had to go deep back in to kill a big deer, and now they're they're killing all these deer and them like and the guys like, well, I let the deer come out naturally. You know, it takes several years for them to condition to do that. But after a while, if they feel like there's no pressure on the outside, and if you're hunting properly, they will eventually adjust and they will come out in daylight hours and you will be able to take advantage of that. And it's a low impact situation because now you're hunting them on the side, which means that you're not bumping them into all when you're getting into your stands and if you hunt them right on the outside, they won't never know they're being hunted, you know, because you obviously you're getting in without bumping them. And then when you leave a lot of times you leave in a proper manner that don't also alarm them that you're there as well. Now it could be a vehicle coming in and picking up an ATV whatever. There might be a stealthy approach out of there in the evening where you slip, you know, you get down and you slip out the back door. You know, you drop over a ridge and out of sight and you know, get out of there. Or they might transition through that area and they might be out in front of you for a little bit there at a water hole or a pinch point, and then they leave and they go out to another food source, so they they're not even around you in the evening as dark approaches. So yeah, I think I've learned that let the deer come to you in steady you go into the deer and hunting them on the outside. That takes a couple of years for deer to condition to do that, and likely likely of property where you can keep that pressure low, right, Yes, and if you know A private example is that I have, like I said, allfitters and friends that do that successfully. The Druries one of the some of the best deer hunters I know in television for sure. I mean, undoubtedly these guys. They consistently killed giants. I would I would venture to say they do that a lot. And they're very very good dear. You know, I have known those guys for a long time. Market very great people. Um. But they they put low impact on their farms. These are free range and white tails there are no different than any other free range of white tail around the country. I mean, they're tricky to hunt if they get pressured, but they're low impact, low pressure and makes a huge difference, you know. I mean I live in an area that gets a little more hunting pressure here in Minnesota, so that changes, that changes the whole complexity, and you know your deer game plan you now are thinking about hunting pressured animals. I mean I live next to one of the largest wildlife management areas in the entire state, you know, over thirty thousand acres. It has great hunting but and it has monster bucks in it. But it doesn't mean that you can go just you know, parking a parking lot, walk out on one of their trails, go find a perfect tree and set up on a deer trail and spectacular deer hasn't work that way. I mean, if you're gonna hunt, you've got to figure out where they're gonna obviously be feeding, where the food sources, where they're coming from, and then you know, probably back door them. You know, figure out where that they know where the pressure is coming from, so they're gonna avoid that pressure. They're going to be you know, traveling, you know, in such a way that they never get themselves in harm's way. So if you figure out how to come from the back side of the ridge and maybe in the morning be set up, well, I'm deer filtering back thinking that the pressure is kind of pushing them that way. Boom there in your lap and you're in your bedding area and you can you can pretty pretty much have a good hunt. It definitely seems to take a different level of aggressiveness when you're hunting those deer that are getting pressure ton because you know, you couldn't sit on the edge in a wildlife management area like that and expect to see deer come out of the field. Because there's gonna be all sorts of other hunters in that kind of situation. Like you said, make that adjustment, get deeper in there, or get to where nobody else will go, and then you can and then you can finally get into those deer. But I want to take a step back to something you touched on a couple of times, um, but I want to dive into a little bit further. And that's the wind. When you're in these areas of topography, lots of hills and bluffs and all that kind of stuff, can you celebrate on specifically the wind issues you have, why that's an issue, and then how you deal with that well, I mean obviously that the wind is you know, all over in every direction, a lot of times created created by the topography or the lay of the land. Now sometimes you can think, hey, and northwest wind is a perfect wind. It will be in my face and you go sit there and it's absolutely the opposite. And it's because the hill creates a vortex, so it comes over the top of the ridge from the northwest like you think it is. And that's what the weather Channel has told you the winds out of And then when you go sit in the bottom or midway up a hillside, and now it's vortexing and it's actually coming from the southeast. So it's absolutely the opposite wind, um of what you think. So you kind of got to learn over course of time by trial and are a lot of times what the primary winds are in particular stand location. Um, it doesn't always go that way. Sometimes you know, the winds just are in every direction. But you know, over the course of time, I've learned in some of our stands, like Tom stands, Tom sount of them. Those areas for you know, years from now. He knows that those stands, what winds are perfect for those stands. So I mean he's got those slotted in there. And in our situation, um, you know, I mean we try to stay up on top of the ridge. Is a lot to hunt versus get ourselves over the edge or down low, because then you are more susceptible to a swirling wind or a wind that changes or something like that, which you know it's hard to control. Obviously, we try to stay send free. Um. We practice being sent free as much as we can, um by keeping our clothes you know, washed and sent free, detergent all the way from start stored and sense safe environment until you get out there in the field. And dressing in the field, um you know, I mean we wear you know, technology clothes that um you know, keep the scent to a minimum, that absorbs scent situations. Um. But I mean and all that stuff is effective. I mean you gotta you know, there's no cure all, which means you can't go put on or spray down and think that you're gonna walk out from mark and that's gonna you know, cure you know, any sent that you might have on you. It's kind of taking you know, a series of steps to become sent free. But that isn't a guarantee. I always say, it just gives you a bupper. If you are really truly just sent free as possible, then it might give you an edge to or if a deer comes in he thinks you're not in his danger zone when you actually are, it might be like your essenes you but you're at a hundred yards instead of year at twenty. So they might get nervous and they like, oh, there's something here, but there's no you know, it's really there's no deer in my immediate danger zone. Yeah, that makes sense. What about any Sorry about that, My little one came in no problem speaking of those, uh of those type of situations when you're in that hilly country dealing with that kind of wind. While that's also all that can be a challenge, right hunting that kind of area with that wind issue, it can also be a benefit. And then I think there's a lot of ways that terrain like that funnels deer. Is that something you take advantage of a lot? Well, yeah, I mean, you know, these hills and valley do create funnels simply because there's a lot of the erosion that takes place here. So generally in each drainage there's going to be a place where the water washes. And in most situations, over the course of time, especially this year, we've had a lot of rain, um those those ditches or drainages become impassable, which means a deer half a lot of times have to kind of go up and go around a steep part or find a place to cross um from one point to another, and that funnels the deer. You know, some a lot of times it's at the top of the ridge, or it's at the bottom the ridge is where they get through. It ain't gonna be in a halfway point. So you know, the steeper areas are obviously you know, going to be impassable, so um, we look for those. But again a lot of times choose the top of a ridge because I can get a truer wind. I used a ridge in my advantage in certain instances. I hunted a big non typical years ago in Bluff at Tom's place in both Country Outfitters Place in Wisconsin and Buffalo Coney. He was a big, mature deer that lived on Tom's and you know, with the hunting pressure and stuff from you know, years of Tom's hunters, he knew how to invade danger. He lived out on a ridge that had no pressure because it wasn't Tom's piece of property. It was just an old guy had it. And he never really hunted outside of gun hunting, so that deer knew exactly where he had to spend his time and he would kind of come on to Tom's, but he would come there during you know darkness, and we get a lot of photos of him. But I got permission to hunt this deer. It was just one little ridge that this deer lived on him It wasn't a very big area. His core area was very small. He was six and a half years old, and I tounted him as a five and a half year old quite heavily. But I was only limited to hunting on Tom's border, and that was a kind of halfway up that same particular ridge. And that deer every time I would hunt him, he wouldn't show up, and when I wouldn't be there, I would get a picture of him, so I knew he was watching me get into my stand. So um, I got access to that piece of property, and I went hung a stand on top of that ridge, and I hung in in a manner that with a salt wind that would blow my wind out, he would think he was coming into the wind walking along the top of that ridge, but actually my wind was going out over the valley, so he would never be able to pick me out. And exactly what happened. I on the second day, early September. He walked right in. He got up out of his bed, which he was betted on one of the edges, and he was walking right along the ridge with the wind in his face, feeding on acorns, and he walked right in twenty yards and I stuck him. Unfortunately, I caught a deflection off a rib and went up under shoulder blade instead of into his cavity, and off he went. I thought it made a perfect shot. It should look like in a video. Because that was in two thousand and six. That deer was famous in that area. We called him Moses, and I did. I did a show on him because it was a cool story because it had an outcome. Um That deer showed up like a month and a half later on camera, all stretched out perfectly, fine, big scar on a twelve ring spot right behind his shoulder, but perfect, I mean nothing, no signs of, you know, being sick or anything. And then they killed him during gun the season, so we got to see what happened. But I fooled him because of the wind. And I used those edges of those ridges to get the wind in my favor and blow out over the over the ridge. And you know, the deer think the wind is in their favor because they're traveling on the actually they can see down, they can see any danger from blow but then the winds completely in their face. So hunting those lips are pretty effective. How do you get into those spots and for afternoon hunts. I imagine that's the challenge is because right, they're set up so well where they can see down below them, they can smell, you know, like you said, usually they're better with the wind at their backs. They can smell anything behind them. How do you get in there? Well, that was You're right, that was a challenge, and I knew it would be the challenge. I knew I had to get into that location early season when the foliage was still on, because he could see me when the leaves come off the trees. No matter what direction I would come, I used the ridge actually as um part of the way I could get in it. You know, the point would come out, so I knew he was more on the east side of the ridge betted than the west side, so I used the west side to come up from. So give me that ridge is a hiding point. And of course your sound doesn't travel up over it, you know, just reflects and goes back. But there was a steep erosion ditch that came down from that top of that ridge, and I actually went in there in the middle of the summer and cleared that out. It was sandy too, so it was real quiet, but I cleared that out. I cleared myself a trail and pulled. It was basically pulling myself all the way up from using saplings to get into my stand. And when I got to the lip of the ridge, I basically got I come out of that ditch and I just was right there and my my tree stand was right there, and up in the tree I went. It was so deadly and silent. I remember when I crawled into that stand for the first time. I don't know one time I start the deer. I crawled into that stand up day. And when I got into it, I it was pretty quiet gonning, and I didn't want to make any noise because I knew he was really better, really close. I got in there and there was those bedded within ten yards of that stand. They did not pay any attention to me. It did not spook off. They hadn't seen me. And then I didn't make any noise and they couldn't smell me, so it was stealthy as I'll get out. And again, you know, we talked a little bit about paying attention to stand approaches and not tipping off deer and how you do it. I mean, it was just a great way to get in there and it can be I remember hunting one time um a situation and in Iowa with Greg Miller and I hunted this place and out in a western Iowa um in the sand hill area near the Nebraska border, and it was a cool spot because that area is not as big and doesn't have as bigger hills are pretty they're pretty small. And the steerer it was late hunted, late season hunting a situation where we're hunting out their muzzle, older season, which and the deer were all coming off this little hillside. It's all facing hillside and dropping into the self alfa field. We couldn't I mean, you can't like get out and walk across that alf alfa field and getting you're blind and expect to shoot a deer because they you would domino him, they'd see you. But this guy, he used it. It was like a creek, an old creek bed, and it was steep and in kind of a roaded out over the years. And we would get into that creek bed about a quarter a mile away, drop into it from the his driveway, drop into that creek bed and walked the creek bed all the way up to a blind that he had set up on the end of that little drainage. When we got we crawled up and the deer would they never left the field all day. I think they fed out there in that alf Alls field. We crawl up and right in through a trapdoor system and right into the blind and get up and peek out the window, and there would be deery and they wouldn't even know you got in. But people got into think, like a deer, you can't go just lazing into your tree stands and expect that you're gonna shoot a big buck a lot of times. Yeah. So, So, speaking of tree stands and different setups like this, we've talked about, you know, how to access them smart, We've talked about different ways of dealing with wind. But something I've heard you mentioned before, and I think you mentioned in your book too, was about ways of making tree stands sites even better than usual by using something you refer to as calling cards. Can you talk about what that is and what some examples that might be. Well, you know, I mean, we we have property that we own here and Minnesota, and and not a big track of lamp, pretty small. I started with you know, just about fifty here and and Um, it's hard to manage if the acres didn't make it the best it can be. But I also have the neighbors, so I can. I want to a track dear to my area. And I created an interior food plot back in the timber. Uh. It's only half an acre in size. It's on top of a ridge and we had a long time ago ahead and straight line winds that came through there and kind of knocked a bunch of the timber over. So it was already an area that it was kind of starting to grow up in time that this would be a perfect place to create a food plot. But it's gonna take some work. So I went in there, saw it up and cut that a doors are in there, and we pushed the stumps off and I cleared and into your plot. So that kind of started the momentum about building a nice little deer, you know, creating a deer drawing card, so to speak, for an into your food source. And you know, I know that there's a lot of people now thinking into your food sources, but you've got to create an area for it. Once I created that food source, um, it took a couple of years to get it right. I mean, I know, first I hadn't neutralize the soil and get all the debris out of there, and I put a lot of lime on it. I mean I probably a ton of acre at least, or not even more. I mean I turned the ground and white. I had a guy coming there with just a line truck, like a dump truck, and he just flipped I mean, spread it thick. And I started neutralizing that soil. Because that's soil, it's very acidic from all that leaf debris for years a leaf and hedder breaking down. So to grow good food on there right away would be pretty tough. So I started conditioning the soil, started fertilizing it. Had a guy bring in some you know, seminar get started working that and getting that soil prepared. I also created a water hole. Now if you hunt here in Buffalo County, are you hunt here in our area? Water holes are no secret it anymore. Pretty much everybody that owns property in Buffalo County has a water hole on their property. It didn't start that way, but people have learned over the years. Um, I think a lot of us, Duke Tom and a few of us started kind of that trend. But water holes are super deadly, super effective for creating a drawing card, so to speak, to make deer come to a particular area. If we build them on the tops of these ridges, we took them back into tight areas you know, that are right on the edge of the bedding areas. And then you know, we may obviously build little trail systems in to get in quietly and can get out. Um. But now you have a reason for a beer to come to that particular spot. And we learned a long time ago deer can go without water, but they are off food, but they can't go without water. And all throughout the entire season until it really gets frozen hard, the deer are going to use it. They're gonna utilize it. Obviously, dry drier years are going to use it more. Um. But when when the ruts on, deer I don't want a hot deer gotta go to it. And it's just just an area that really pulls deer in, and I build so I build an interior food plot. I always put a water hole in combination with an interior plot. I mean it just goes without saying them. I might plant stuff there, you know that comes up for forage. And stuff for him, but also going to be a water So so I create two things right there. And my I also plant fruit trees and plant apple trees there because bucks really like apples early season and I don't know if it's a sugar content, but the go to apple trees. A lot of guys killed big bucks on apple trees early season. So I plant apple trees and obviously it takes several years for them to you know, grow, So you got a cageum keep protecting them from the deer. If you just plant an apple tree out there, the deer o it will never never grown and never mature because they'll they'll browse it off and they'll never never develop apples. So you got a cageum and protect them. You also got to protect them from mice because mice in the winter will to the lower bark off them. And so you got a tube them as well. A little bit of a little work, but it will pay off when they mature. And my, my apple trees are now maturing now and they're producing apples, and again it creates a drawing card for him. So now I got apple trees, I got water, and I got food in my food source. I have. I give them a selection of food. UM. And that's tricky because it's a very small area. UM, you know, half acre in size. I plant generally plant corn in the back um because it's also a cover. UM. But I know when it gets cold, they're going to utilize that more. They're not it's not going to be an early season. And then UM. I also have clover Nebraska planet in there as well, UM around the pond, so I give them a different food variety for different times of the year. And when it gets colder, they're not going to hit the clover as much. You're gonna go in the corn. Some places we plant beans. But the real trick to growing corn and beans and stuff and small interior plots. UM. It's tricky because for one thing, you know, the sunlight is an issue for making the food really grow good. But the biggest issue is keeping the deer out of it while it's growing and maturing in order for it to be abundant enough when the season kicks in. So you have to protect it or keep the deer out of there. And we fence it. Um. How do we fence it? Um? You know it's we're not putting high fence situation around this thing is, you know, it's not affordable, it's not effective. But what we've learned that works the best. And I've tried electric before, like a six strand electric and that works for a little bit. I'll keep them out there for a little bit, but if they want in their bad enough, they're going to figure out how to get through that electric, I'm promise you. And then once they start tearing it up, tangled up, it's a mess. So the best case scenarios what we've done is we um we just simply went and got some high steel pole posts that you know, we're over eight ft, and then we would go get snow fencing from you can get it from lows, you know, Menard's wherever, just any farm and fleet store, and you take that snow fencing and then generally snow fencing is four or five ft tall, and you go around there and you just zip tie it simply to those posts that you put in and stretch it and then you can put either second layer of that on top, or we use sometimes just it's a bird netting and it's a black burden hedding and we do the top portion in that burden ending. The best part is when you want to take it down, you can you just simply go and snip the zip ties and roll it back up and you're good for next year. Or some situations like in Illinois, will take a portion of it down and we create a funnel that way for the deer to enter and leave the field. And now your food now fully matures and is as ready for when you want to let them in. Worth awesome. So this calling card like it sounds like this in this example you're sharing, right, You've got a tree stand there. You're putting this into your food plot with all these different types of food sources in there. You've got a water source in there, so you're adding a little more attraction. Um. I've heard you also talking about scrapes or mock scrapes or things like that. Do you do you throw in that type of thing into the mix too, just to continue to sweeten the deal. Yeah? Absolutely, and I do that more. Not even if I have a into your food pot, any tree stand, Um, you should immediately if you hang a tree stand, you have any um indication that you're going to leave that there for the you know, the course of the entire year, you should you know, always try to create a mock scrape by it. There might no there might be a big scrape. They're already to where you can shoot to it. But um, I would. It's like a no brainer. Why not create a scrape out in front of your tree stand to where you can get a box to a particular spot right in front of you to get a clean shot. It just seems like elementary. But a lot of people don't take the time to do this. And it's not that you're gonna make a mock scrape and you're gonna kill that buck in there. I'm not saying that that's going to happen, but you know what, it can't hurt to try to mock scrape. And if they start using it, it becomes a calling cart. It really does. And we've done it very effectively. And really what we do is I'll go out in front of my tree stand and generally one or two spots in front of there, and I'll find um a tree, generally an oak tree or some sort of tree that's green and that they're not gonna trash up and be able to bust up really easy. I'll pull a branch down to where it's about six ft off the ground and maybe five and a half but to where it's a perfect height form to rub their antlers in. I'll and wire it back. I'll of course wire it from the from the branch back to the trunk of the tree, and I'll then you know, take a screw or whatever, and I'll put that wire on there. And I used to use a string and stuff like that, but the string would drought and they would bust it off and it doesn't stay permanently there. And now and then I clear all the debris underneath that branch, and I've used urine in there before to activate it. I've used none, but I definitely clear out the debris and bring that soil fresh and get all the rock and whatever else, sticks and logs, whatever the out of that area, so underneath that branch is just clear to dirt and beer. Just naturally see those kind of branches and want to start utilizing them, especially if they're in there anyways for food. For food source, there's gonna be bucks there. They're gonna go to those overhanging branches and start using them and all automatically. But if there's no overhanging branch there, they ain't gonna they can't reach it. They're not going to make a scrape there. They're going to go to where they can make scrapes. So I create that calling cards, so to speak, and it works like a charm. And every tree stand should have a moch spape in front of it that you plan on being in your shooting lane or being able to shoot to it. So it's like you can pull a deer in there. Just becomes you know, putting the odds more in your favors. So yeah, I mean we do make moch scapes and all of our you know, stand sets as well, and it works. It can work pretty effectively. Are there any other little tweaks like that that you make at most of your stand sites or other little habitat manipulations that make things better? Anything on those less well? And you know, depending on the laws in the state regulation obviously, you can add mineral sites to your repertoire or calling card um, you know, to pull them in there for that bait stations or whatever. Just depends on the laws in your your state. Obviously in Minnesota you can't use that. Wisconsin you can. Um just certain certain states allow a baiting and certain don't but not that a big buck's gonna walk in there, but he might follow a doll that comes in there for that reason. Um, you know, I mean some people are of course anti bait. So you know it's not that you need to use that at all, um, but it all, it all helps if you can utilize, you know, making a deer come to your stand location for a particular reason. And I like these, like we build these into your food sources and their food plots in areas that they really are staging areas and transition areas, you know, from the bed bedding area to more of a larger food source that's maybe a larger agricultural feel. They are a larger food source that they're gonna enter into later on after dark, you know, Um, they'll come out more of the open areas and start feeding in a much bigger food source. But as they transition and as they stage, they come into that smaller sort you know, interior plot and it works, It works really good. So you know that's what we've done, and then you know, of course it's it's worked well. I also hang, it's very important to note that in those in those hunting areas, I have three different setups generally speaking, So if you go to my half acre food into your food plot right now, you're going to see three different stand locations I have set up for filming, you know. So I'm gonna have at least two stands, sometimes three stands in a tree um, you know, because I take my kids sometimes they like sitting with me, so I have to have a stand for them as well. But I'll have I'll have two tree stands set set up for bill hunting, um for different winds. Um. I want to be able to go back there, and I want to be able to hunt if it's a north wind or a northwest wind or something. I got a stand set up on one side of the food plot, and then i'll have on the other side. Uh, it's set up for a different wind. Of course, I kind of know where they're coming from. Also, I know where the they're coming from, so I'm not wanting alarm them in that way. And I also put a blind, permanent blind. And just in the last several years, permanent blinds have really become super effective for people that are owning and you know, managing their properties. There they're setting a lot more core, so there's a lot more being manufactured um out there. But now these we use a blind that's made by Muddy and uh, it's just built beautiful. You know, it's like it's like as nice as your house inside. But it's very scent tight. Um. The window systems are very quiet. So now you can sit in there no matter what win you got and be able to hunt. And and we love to take the kids really go there, um because now I can get you know, three or four people in these blinds comfortably, and we can sit there comfortably. It's a much warmer hunting situation for when it gets colder. They can move around a little bit. They're not like they're sitting in a tree stan or you're gonna get picked off as much that, you know, just a lot better hunting experience for the youth and older people. It's much safer than crawling up and down a tree or a ladder stand. So permanent blinds have really become more effective way to hunt now. And you know a lot of people you can archie hunt on them as well. I got into your plot. I can shoot out of there just as easy with bow as I can with with a firearm. But I have each one of my interior plots, I have two or three setups on each for different different winds. How often can you hunt an area like that with all you've got, all these different setups for different wind directions? How many times do you think you can get in there and out without a mature buck adjusting? Well, if I pay attention and not leave any scent on the ground as many times as I want um without tipping them off, I mean, if there, if I feel like I spook a deer, I'll give it some time to rest. But if I don't ever spook a deer, I think you can go in there as many times as you want. People sometimes get a little bit crazy on like, well, I went in there and hunted, you know, so I gotta give it a week's rest. If you leave scent, or you tip year off, or you spook here, I think, yeah, I definitely needs a rest, specially a particular buck that you're after. If he busts you out of a stand, you probably should change your tree stand because he probably is not going to walk in and let you shoot him out of that stand again unless he has to come there for a reason and he's pressure to come there. If it's the only food source and he's cold weather. He might walk in there again, but he might most likely he's going to pay attention to your tree stand. That goes with out saying. With any deer he hear to bust you, it poses a future problem like an old dough. If she sees that you're in that tree, or she picks you out, she blows the whistle and she figures out that tree stands there. You're in that tree. She's gonna check it for the next months when she walks in there, So walk down wind or she'll come out to look. So sometimes you know, when you get picked off like that, you kind of you gotta change the locations. I'll lot of times I'll leave that stand there and I won't pull it down. I'll declaim to where they'll come out and they'll look at that standin although I've seen it to where I moved my stand twenty yards away from the other stand, and I watched deer walk right and looking at that standards. They walked all the way, and then I'm watching them. It's funnier than because you're you can read their mind. They're walking and looking at that standard with nobody in it and they're like, I don't see anybody, and they keep coming and they're like they ease in there. They're very cautious. But as they get in there, they're like nobody's there, and they're kind of like you can see almost their attitude change, you know, because they're just on edge. And then you're still sitting there and you're you're over in a different tree. You're laughing because you can read their minds. And but you know, I mean, we've done it. We've decoyed deer um so many times in the past where you know, we'll put a like a big open field. We'll have deer come out in that field and you can't get them. You know, one day they might be on the one side, the next day they're on your side. So what we'll do is we'll take a permanent blind or something. We'll set it over there. Cars don't generally work or vehicle because they don't pay much attention to them to get curious. But a blind is a perfect thing, something out of the ordinary. Set out there, and then they come out, they're like what's that and they won't go over there. They'll come over your way though, and here you're sitting over there. So yeah, it works good, works pretty good. UM. But yeah, you know, good question though, because a lot of people, like you know, how how much time should I give a stand, you know for going in there and hunting. Some people don't have that luxury. They got one tree stand if you're bumping them or you're putting pressure on them. And I'm also staying very scent free. UM. I do use a product that a lot of people now that are in the white tailed world are using, and it it's very effective product. I think a lot of people have had great success. It's called nose jammer, and I'm sure you've heard of it. Um. It's a vanilla based product comes in an aerosol can. Uh. This product is basically a cover and um it also there's some product natural ingredient in it that helps kind of jam the senses smells a deer. Well. I started testing the stuff before I ever endorsed it, and I know the guy that's done it, and UM, I wanted to test the product by spraying it on my boots because you know, sometimes you'll get trailed in um, a deer will cut your trail from where you walked, and of course they trail you all the way to your tree. That happens quite often, especially with two of us. So we started spraying of stuff on our boots and then walking into our stands. And then I started watching deer that would cross her trail. And before we used it, you know, they would we probably spray keep on the scent free as possible, but they would trail and smell each weed and try to figure out where that person went and follow you almost to the base of your tree. And then if they do get to the base of your tree, they're gonna probably bust you because they're gonna eventually look up and see you. So that's always a big concern of mine. So I started spraying Nose You around my boots and I noticed when they cut the trail, now they might smell around her a little bit, but there they continue on. It doesn't It's like, it doesn't, it doesn't become I'm not a human to them anymore. So that's been a very effective product, and we also use it in the tree to help cover if I got if I got a really bad wind or swirling wind, I spray that on the you know, the bark and the leaves around me and it's very pleasant smelling, smells like you're in a bakery, but becomes cover and helps mask your sense. So I know that you've heard of it. I know a lot of big buck hunters that are using it and they're having a pretty good success. Yeah, I've definitely seen the same thing. I kind of approached it skeptically at first, but just like U saw it work time and time again. So it's definitely part of the repertoire now. Yeah, And you know, Vanilla is basically and attracted a lot of people use you know, Vanilla tracks and um, I mean back in the old days we use Skunk here and fox here, and I remember all that stuff sent way for it. It was endless repertoire of cover sense and stuff like that. I mean, any years my stuff fell smell like fresh earth. Um. But now you know, I mean that's a that's a great product and one that I'm not afraid to put my name on for sure. Um, that works good to help mask and especially your booth walk in that's awesome. Yeah. So so final question for you, Pat. We talked a little bit earlier about how lots of times guys or girls have a job where they can go you know, they only get like one week of vacation. Lots of times they end up using that vacation during the rut. If you were going to give our listeners just like one core concept or piece of advice for really maximizing that hunt during the rut, what would that be? For one thing? Going to a good placed on You can't expect to kill a big deer if you're you know, like a boot you know, giant deer. If you're gonna hunt m p A in a high pressure area, you know, hey, I'm gonna use Michigan this example. I hate to do that, but I'm just saying, you know, you've got a much better chance of killing a big deer in Kansas or Ioware, Illinois than you do in Michigan. I'm just telling you, so you gotta hunt where the deer are. That's pretty elementary, but I get it. I mean, you know, there's a lot of people who don't have that opportunity or don't have that time or money or whatever. It's not Sometimes you can figure out ways to get there pretty economically. You don't have to go on a fully guided hunt. But um, planning that vacation time is very important because that's going to put the odds in your favor, and that's been trickiest part for us. UM. But I would never try to plan my hunt for the very peak of the rut um to where you're hitting the lockdown phase, because that can get very frustrating to shoot big mature dear. You're gonna see mature immature dear all over the place, but those big giant deer get with does and that can be very frustrating because then they go lockdown with them, and they're gonna be with them, does you know for of course a two or three days before they breed them and then they finally get sick and we move on and we'll try to find another goal. And then generally they can pick up a hot door pretty quick and lockdown with her. So it's tough. Um. A lot of people like hunting that stage or that, and myself is included, like trying to find that little the window of opportunity right prior to that peaker rot, in that pre rot period to where them big box are now on their feet searching, but they still haven't picked up a hot dough and they're moving there. I mean basically their movements in daylight hours are giving them the exposures that you need to kill them and be in those hunting situations. So travel corridors, pinch points areas that these box are going to be on, traveling through betting areas, stuff like that can really you know, up your odds UM. But you know, in each state it definitely differs. Like in Minnesota, you want to be here, you're that latter week of October leading into the Halloween period because they're really peak of the ruts in that first week in November period UM, And it's about one week later in Iowa and in Illinois and about a week later in Kansas. So kind of each state there's a little bit different. But talking to people that hunt there and talking to you know, people that know are you know, they can give you those kind of dates and when that happens, um and when that peak is and just those days leading into that period are really the bouma best times to be there before that rout gets into that lockdown phase. That's my that's my best advice. And obviously going to those areas that yeah, I'll give you that opportunity. UM calling works very good during that period. You know, rattling running blank calling Can again called big Buck in because he saw all of a sudden thinking, oh my god, there's two big Bucks over there and they're going at it because they got a hot doll pinned down, and now the other big box like I'm going there because they're fighting for a reason. So very effective way of calling. I gotta tell you, just every time I ever hear any of our guests start talking about that type of moment where you're rattling and the big boy comes in, that just gets me fired up and ready for November. So I am ready. Yeah, I mean it comes like a freight train and that's gone in in an instant. So that's what I find the most frustrating is you know, hitting that shirt wood and window and and then I always am more frustrated when mother nature throws you a curveball and it's like excessively warm and it kills a rut runt time and yeah, just GE's so it's so mad when if you if you got a full moon period and you've got warm conditions and it pushes everything in a nighttime movement, and then you got a gesture of strategy, you know, I mean, if I got a full moon period and warm days. I'm hunting in during that that good time. I'll hunt late mornings, um because deer generally bettered by a first light because they've been rolling. I'll buck aleay there for a while kind of you know, and then he'll get up and he'll start moving. And that's when we nail these water holes. Because now it's warm out, they're dehydrated, their thirsty. So guess what the first place they do is they go to the water hole for one thing, they got a cool down and they got to get a drink. But they also know those go there, so they'll send check that area as well. So water holes in those situations are super super effective for those kind of periods of time. And and we've had tremendous luck, you know, shooting some big beer. You know, you just never know when you get thrown a curveball. And mother nature always seems like late season. You're you're fired up because you got a late season muzzleloader tag in your pocket. For Iowa, it takes three or four years of draw and you're like, all we need is snow, and it's like never never snow and cold temperatures. It's like you might get one day, but now all of a sudden it's Christmas and you spend time at home with your family, and by the time you get ready to go back to Iowa, it's warmed up the fifty degrees and you've got southeast winds or east winds, and you're like, oh my god, no, dear, no mature dear movement to food sources. So so much does depend on that weather, that's for sure. Can you, super quick just elaborate a little bit on your thoughts on the moon there? You mentioned this sounds like with a full moon you're seeing less daylight activity. Maybe, but can you just meant, can you explain a little bit more about how you see the moon impacting dear movement, whether it be during the rout or anytime of the year. Well, and and it definitely does affect it. I mean no doubt it affects everything. In affect that our bear hunt this last week. Full moon periods are a tough periods to hunt because it just makes dear more nocturnal and dear feet up night time. You know, it's generally cooler in the evenings and stuff. So um, I mean, we gotta hunt, that's what we do. So full moon or not full moon. You know we gotta be in the woods. But we see definitely a difference in activity during daylight hours when there's full moon. Um. Now moon positioning or you know, where the moon is in relationship to the Earth is much different situation. There's kind of two different things. There's a phase and then then you know the moon position to the Earth, which makes dear animal movement different too. So generally when moon is overhead or underfoot, the peak movement periods and that's you know, time to be out there and of course hunting, um, that's when we pay attention to peak activity periods. And you know fishermen do the same thing as well as other types of hunters. But um for moon phases, you know, full moon periods generally four or five days after the moon is waning where it's going to starting to go away. It's generally you know when you're going to start to see an increase in activity and dear movement. And you know, the full moon is a tough one in some instances. But then at we have a full moon period, especially in that rout rut time PREI rout time, we'll hunt won't generally be out there at day at you know, first light will back off our hunt to a ladder morning set versus an early morning set, So knowing that them deer will probably be are bedded down for a period of time before they get up and move around. We're generally starting around nine o'clock in the morning. They'll move you know, tell eleven or twelve and then rebad for the heat of the day. So interesting, very interesting. The moon is always one of those things that is always kind of fascinating because there's a lot, like you mentioned, there's lots of different theories and different aspects of the moon that might influence deer movement and um trying to paint all that down and figure out ways to apply that to your hunting strategy. That's that's one of those things that I always get kind of a kick out of his figuring out how that piece of the puzzle fits into the larger scheme of things. Yeah, it's it is. I mean, you know, it all goes together. You got i know, people that just won't go and lots of the moon's activity charts, so it's a good time to hunt. Over the years we paid attention to it. I mean, it it does have a little bit of impact. Adam Hayes, he's a guy I don't know. Adam Is he's a guy that hunter percent only hunts by the moon. And yeah, he paid very close attention to that where that moon position is um and that kind of bases his hunting off of that. So you know, I know that a lot of people both in our instance, I mean, we're out there regardless of the moon position or phase whatever. We've just got to be out there every day because you never know. When you know, something happens, I mean and the deer moves your way or in a particular animal. You know another thing too. It's kind of important to mention. I mean, when white tail hunting gets kind of poor or lulled out, we we might change and we might go to a place that doesn't have it. Like, uh, we do a lot of hunting before hunting gets gets so we don't we don't burn our spots out by over hunting um um too much and not putting your pressure until the time is right to go in there. So we'll go to Canada and we'll hunt there for a couple of weeks. Well, there, their deer acts much different. They don't lull out as much there. Um, they're in a whole different situation up there. So we'll spend time hunting there for a couple of weeks and then come back here to the Midwest. Want just when they're hunting really picks up and starts to get good, when deer really start hitting the ground. And you know, I mean it's no secret that you can drive down you can start driving the highways and start seeing when deer activity picks up because the amount of road kills that are laying on along the roads, and um, you know, you can almost sense the time that that happens. So yeah, you can. It's definitely a very visual indicator. Yeah you see it. And you're like, time to get into a tree? Yeah, back, Like, and I guess with all that said, Pat, we've we've kept you here a long time, and I imagine you've probably got a tree to climb up into here, maybe today or in a couple of days. So I'll be in a tree later. I'll be like I said I earlier, I said, we're Um. Jeff Janice, who is the receiver for the Packers, has a bye week this week, so we talk about limitations. If you're an NFL player right now, you have a pretty limited time to be out there hunting in the course of the football schedule. So he's the Packers have a bye week this week, so I'm jumping in the tree with him tonight filming him and we're over at We're gonna be hunting at Tom's and Bluffo, Buffalo County there at Bluff Country Officers and hopefully we can see something. Last night, it was it was a good night, but then it started getting really windy and it rained. We had a front move through and it killed it. It was it started up good, we started seeing some movement, and all of a sudden, the heavy rains came and it just kind of shut things down. And I think tonight it isn't raining. It got a little pressure in, and no, the next a couple of days should be pretty good because high pressure is going to be moving in and it's gonna be cool and those kind of things. You know, we didn't talk really about pressure systems, but I talked about the druries and they're guys that really pay attention to high pressures. And you know, when lows leave and high start coming in, them guys are in the woods and you know, it's just you know, like us humans. I mean, when we get a nice sunny day, we feel good and dry air comes in, amidity leaves were we're gonna want to go outside. Well, dear the same way, and they want to move and get up and feed and feel good about it. Um. Those are the times to kind of especially if you've had a period of low pressure, you know, damp human and then all of a sudden, high pressure moves in. That's the time to really be out there because you're gonna see a good, real good deer movement. Well that's exciting to hear that that's rolling in for you guys. Yeah, I've got a few more days till our opening day, four more days for me, so hopefully we'll be able to catch some of that decent movement here too. And man, Pat, I wish you the best of luck and really appreciate you spend some time with us. Oh I'm sorry about the little technical glitches, but yeah, it was fun. And good luck to you this year. I hope you shoot some giants, and good luck to everybody else out there. I hope and hope to see some photos and hear some stories to everybody, you know, everybody can go to our you know, social media pages, whether it's hashtake Hunter or Driven with Pat Nicole, Send us some photos, send us your stories. We love to love to see them for sure. Yeah, absolutely, And can you remind us again where can we watch the most recent episodes of your shows. You can watch Driven every Tuesday night, central nine Eastern on Outdoor Channel, and then you can also watch Hatch Hashtag Hunter, which is on the Sportsman's Channel and it's on every Saturday night at eight so thirty both times Saturday nights and Tuesday nights Tuesday night for Driven Hashtag Hunter Saturday night. So yeah, um, we gotta We have a great year of lineup of shows and of course a lot of big deer hitting the ground. So awesome. Well, I'll be sure to check it out and we'll make sure to include all those things in the blog post notes too, So great stuff, Pat, thanks again, and uh hope to hear some good stories from you soon. All right, same here, thank you sir. All right, and with that we will wrap this episode up and before shut things down, though, we need to thank our partners who helped make this podcast possible so big thanks to sit Gear, Redneck Blinds huntera Maps, Yettie Cooler's Ozonics, Carbon Express, maybeon Optics, and the white Tail Institute of North America. And finally, thank you all for joining us today. I hope you're hunting season is going as well as you'd hoped and dreamed it would. And until next time, stay Wired to Hunt, m