00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon, and this is episode number sixty two Taylor Show. We're talking about hunting highly pressured deer and joining us is one of my greatest hunting influences. John Eberhardt. M all right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sick of Gear. Now I am particularly excited about our episode today because we've got a guest that I've been wanting on the show for a really long time, and that's John Eberhardt. And if you haven't heard of John before, you've been missing out, as at least in my opinion, he's one of the nation's top experts when it comes to hunting deer in heavily pressured areas. And in fact, John has written three books on this very topic along with his son, and I own all of them. And it was actually one of these books, Precision Bow Hunting. But I really have to credit with putting me on a new path as a deer hunter. Um that's really led to me becoming much more successful. Um. I read this book I don't know, a decade ago or something like that, and it just changed how I hunt dramatically, and ever since, I've kind of been using that knowledge as a foundation for everything I've learned upon since. So I'm excited to have John on to talk about all those things that I learned in that book and a lot of different different topics to Um. He's I think going to share information that will be helpful to people in heavily pressure states like Michigan or Pennsylvania, but also to anyone hunting in maybe less pressure states like Nebraska or Iowa, really anywhere. So it's gonna be a great episode. Excited about it. But before we get John on, Dan, what's new with you in Iowa. I'm not gonna bitch about anything today. Nothing nothing. I'm not gonna bitch about my job, or I'm not gonna bitch about my kids or my wife, or I'm gonna say I am blessed to have all of them. I like your attitude. I'm gonna I'm going down the positive path today. Well that's that's really good, um, because I'm gonna go the opposite way. So, well, I tell you what you and Yang Man, that's kind of the story of this podcast. It's gonna balance out. It's gonna balance out. Yeah, I hope. So so why are you so mad? Well? I got really excited last week because I got a friend of mine who was gonna help me out and mow my lawn while I was gone, And while he was in the area, he was kind enough to offer a check one of my trail cameras at one of my hunting properties close by. I was really excited about it, as you might imagine, since I hung these cameras backy mid May, I think before I left, and I haven't you know, it's been like six weeks and I haven't milk checked cameras, and I've just been dying to know if there's any good bucks in the area. So he goes out there to check it, and I'm actually he actually calls me because he can't find it, and so I'm on the phone with him as he's like looking for the camera, and I'm like just so excited. I can't wait for him to get to it. Pull the card, tell me there's ten thousand pictures on it, Pop it in his DSLR, and tell me, oh, giant buck. Instead, he says, oh, man, it's lying on the floor. It's lying on the ground. Yeah. So right away I was like, oh jeez, that's awful. So then I was like, well, hopefully it just got knocked down recently. And it still took like five weeks of pictures. And it was on a um, you know, a steak actually was a sticking pick that usually they stay up great and it's a great tool. But in this case I got knocked down. And what actually ended up happening, um he could tell by the area around it. I put this on the edge of a corn field, inside the brush off the field. But when the farmer came through the spray the boom, the big metal piece of sticks out with a sprayer must have gone wide because every all the brush that usually isn't you know, affected all by the farmer that was all dead and so he sprayed everything, you know, by accident, did a wide turn, and his boom must have swung and knocked my stick and pick and my camera and just fell over on his face. And that said it was hopefully there'll still be you know, five weeks of pictures or four weeks of pictures or something good on there. But he checked the camera. He looked at it only taken sixty pictures all does and sandhill cranes, so it was a complete failure. Positive on the positive side, you didn't destroy that farmer's piece of equipment. Well, you're right, I'm sure that is. That's the silver lining here, that my stick and pick and trail camera didn't destroy the massive boom on the sprayer. Right. I know a guy. I know a guy who put a fence post in uh. He just he drove his fence post down on the corner of this cornfield and he didn't check with a farmer when they were going to combine, and when the farmer combined, he hit that fence post and it towurs his combine head up really bad. That's a guy that the guy had to pay for it. That's an expensive mistake. Yeah right, yikes. Well, I guess I thought you were kidding, But now I guess you're right. There's there's a positive here, right right. It could have been worse, I guess. But I got one other camera in that area, and another one of my friends who's itching to do some deer stuff, said he'd go check that maybe next week. So good luck. Thank you. When are you checking yours? I think next week again, I'm gonna check mine. I Next weekend, I have a I'm gonna call it a man weekend, but it's gonna be by myself man weekend. My my wife and kids are leaving the town. And then I'm gonna stay at home and do a whole bunch of activities that I can't do when I have the kids and wife here. And then I'm gonna probably Sunday morning, or actually Friday, right after I get off work, head straight down and check my cards and then uh, yeah, dude, I'm pumped. There's one deer in particular. I just want to see what he's turning into, so uh, the non typical. Yeah, I think I think it's Mark Kenyon. I think he's back. Yeah, I think he's back. I think he got I think he got sick of your neighbors with all the you know, the fame and glory and fortune over there. And he said, I got to get back over to Dan Johnson's place. Yeah. I wish all of them would do that. Hey, I got I got more good news. What's that? I don't think we've talked about this on the podcast yet. No, okay, would like that's like good news, Dan, good news. I'm just kidding that will be good news someday, whenever it happened. I want my wife to hear this. Moving forward, moving on. The good news that I'm talking about is I drew an Iowa Tago archery. Okay. I know we talked that I was planning on hunting in Iowa, but I didn't know for sure yet. But now I successfully drew my tag archer tag. I got my zone in you know the place I wanted to be, and it's worth hunted before. So I know the general area, and like we said a week or two ago, I just have to get out there in August, knock on some doors and hopefully find a farm or two I can hunt on. So Andy, well, our life is coming together. We finally got our zone for Idaho. You drew your Iowa tag. What else I mean? We're just everything's coming together and we're getting ready for the big push. I guess you'll say. Our lives and our basic plan for hunting is slightly less um rough shot than he usually is. So good um that said, Let's let's keep things on a good track here and not ramble as long as we usually do, and let's just get John on the phone, who I think is going to share some really interesting deer hunting know how with you and me and with all of our listeners. So what do you think, sol plan? I want to know about hunting high pressure? Dear, you do need to hear about that, because you, my friend, even though we all deal with their own challenges, you, you're not dealing with some of the things that guys and some of these other states are. So I think we'll have some interesting things that you can see from John's experiences that may will be uh insightful. So shall we Shall we give him a call? Yes, I think we should. All right here we go, all right with us on the line. Now, is John Iberhar Welcome to show. John. Thanks, I appreciate you inviting me. Yeah, you know, me and Dan had just been talking before we got on the air about the fact that one of your books, Precision Bow Hunting, was probably the greatest influence on me as a deer hunter that I've had to date. When I first read that book, it really kind of changed how I think about some things, and ever since then I've kind of grown from that. But really that kind of foreign foundation from a deer hunter. So I'm particularly excited. Yeah, yeah, I'm really excited to be able to now talk to you now, you know, years and years later, and uh and learn even more from you, and hopefully have our listeners learned a lot about some of the things that I've taken away too, So that all being the case. So for those that maybe aren't familiar with you as I am, could you share this a little bit about how you got into deer hunting and then eventually writing about deer. Uh? Well, I started I started showing an interest in archery deck in the early sixties, and none of my family bow hunted, none of my relatives, and just went in this archery shop and watched the guy shoot, just got interested and started bow hunting in at an age of thirteen, and I just, I don't know, I just got so involved in it. I just loved it, the whole challenge of, you know, getting that close to a deer, and it just was it was always grind back then because I was strictly public land and and I just enjoyed the challenge. And I've been doing it for fifty one season. Wow. And then how did you end up going from just becoming a hunter or just being a bow hunter to then actually, you know, doing what you do now with with hunting, media and writing and everything, and then the books. That's really interesting because English. I almost failed high school because I struggled at English. I had, I swear I got all ease in English, So I don't know how I got through high school. And uh, and then I didn't go to college. One year I went to college and I dropped out and went to trades. And I just back in the eighties, I just felt a need to start writing because I didn't like anything I was reading, and I was a terrible writer. You know. I struggled and I just rolled for some regional stuff. And you know, anytime you just you just continue doing something, you just get better at it. And I just got better at it and better at it and put my practices into into words and and just kind of moved forward. Yeah, I guess that's the only way to really say it. I'm glad you. I'm glad you kept at it because now he here I am today because it's in the stuff that you wrote. So I'll tell you what, if you read some of my stuff in the eighties. I'm sure you'd say, this guy doesn't even know how to put a sentence structure together. I can't be right about anything. And uh, it's just a progression. And obviously now with word and you know, you can research everything for sudden structure, I still don't know a noun from a pronoun. And but I'm very good at writing now. I'm very detail oriented. I'm very detail oriented oriented when I'm hunting because i have to, because I'm in heavily pressured areas. And I passed that on through my writing. Yeah, that's definitely evident when when reading your stuff, um and something you just mentioned the fact that you're hunting in heavily pressured areas. That's really what I was hoping we could focus on today, because of course that's the topic of a lot of which you share in your books and articles, and it's also something that a lot of our listeners and myself can relate to. You know, I'm from Michigan. I hunt a lot in Michigan. A lot of our listeners are in states like New York, Pennsylvania, in the southern states. Even in the Midwestern states they've got high populations like Indiana, Ohio and guys have to deal with the fact that there's a lot of competition out there and there's lots of people on properties with lots of people going after these deer, and it changes things. Um So to kind of set let me interrupted for a second, it's actually pretty basic. Any any state that has a high general population for its land mass that's got extremely high hunting pressure. You know, you go up in the Northeast, even little states like Maryland and Delaware, in Connecticut, West Virginia, Virginia, they have extremely high hunting pressure per absolute square mile. So you know, when you get up into the Northeast, that's when you really get into the heavy hunting pressure because the general populations are so large and along the East coast. Can you define for us then you know what you consider to be a high pressure area. Uh, first of all, you have to you have to define hunting pressure from hunting presence. Okay, if you are in a managed area and there's ten bull hunters in a section, but everybody has a kill criteria of deer or a three and a half or four an alf year old buck, that's not hunting pressure. That's hunting presence. Because there's no consequential. There's no consequences on deer as they're growing to hit until they hit that age criteria or antler criteria. But what I consider has a hunting pressure is areas with lots of hunters where they're all targeting pretty much any legal antward deer. In those types of areas, not many bucks lived to two and a half, and very two lived beyond that. So of all the places you've hunted, John, what would you what state would you consider to have the highest hunting pressure that you've actually hunted in? Michigan handed down and down a Zone three in Michigan, our great home state. Yes, uh, well, Zone three in Michigan has a real high general population. We have the most bow hunters of any state in the Union. We have a huge land mass because we've got the up which is almost almost one third of our land mass. But to take that land mass out and you divide bow hunter licensees into land mass, I mean it's about eight per square mile. And I I hunted a spot for years where there was at least forty hunters in trees on opening morning in one section Sire. That's pretty crazy. That's opening morning rifle season is quite an affair here in Michigan, that's for sure. That was both season. Yes, those numbers were probably doubled. They were probably on opening day a gun season. Yeah. So and that was in southern Michigan, down around Gregory. Okay, So then you know, I certainly have some opinions and some perspectives on this. But what do you think is the biggest difference between hunting and a hunting in a high pressure area like southern Michigan versus maybe Kansas or one of these lower pressure states. The deer have brains. Mature deer actually as a is smart. When I go to Kansas and for Missouri or Iowa, Missouri's look got a little bit of hunting pressure. But like Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, southern Illinois. Uh, those deer are relatively easy to kill. There's lots of mature bucks. Because there's so many mature bucks, the rut is very competitive, so they move a lot to in daylight hours because there's no hunting pressure in the rough. So competitive and you can get away with murder things I do there I would never even think of doing here in Michigan. Every time you stopped footing and the wood, you feel like you're walking on a shelf. Yeah, you just you just have to be so detail oriented in Michigan. Everything has to have a plan. Uh. And that's just to possibly kill us three and a half year old every year. Um, you know, Kansas, I go out there on one week hunt. I had never went out there preseason scouting. Uh, and my goals a hundred fifty or on a one week hunt, I'm just knock on doors and walk on in public land. Yeah. There's there's been ten years that went by hunting in Michigan a month and a half each season, ten full seasons where I've never even seen about that size. Yeah. So for for Dan, my co host, he lives in hunts in Iowa, and I of course live in hunt in Michigan. And so we have an ongoing dialogue about the differences, and I give him a hard time about it. But um, I I'd love to hear from you. Can you tell Dan what how the dear behavior in Michigan differently than they do in Iowa he hunts. Can you give him your perspective on what that dear behavior is like? Has Dan only hunted in Iowa? I've hunted in Uh, I've hunted in Nebraska, but in the lowest populated county in the United States. Okay, let's put it this one. Let me see how I can phrase this. Um, you probably would have no issues walking through a small rural city in anywhere USA at three am? Correct? Correct? Would you walk through inner city, crime laden inner city Chicagogy, Detroit at three am? Why not? I don't want to get hurt. Okay, that's because there's a lot more people there and there's a lot higher crime rate. Crime rate is the same as hunters a ton of hunters trying to kill the same deer. I mean, it kind of equates to the same. Let me put it in a bass fishing scenario. You can take a guide that is a mediocre or novice bass fisherman, and you can put him on a farm pind that never gets fished, and he's probably going to catch him bass. Now you put him on a public lake against a lot of other fishermen that fish all the time. He may not catch a fish in a day. So you know, everything is kind of according to the pressure that something gets. Um. I guess that's the easiest way way to put it. You know, when you have thirty bow Honors pursuing a year and a half and tune a half year old deer. Not many deer ser five to three and a half years old. When I was in Cantor in Iowa or Kansas, there's tons of deer that survived beyond three years old. I mean, I'm targeting four and five year old deer and they exist. They just don't even this in states like Michigan because they get killed before they get that old. And the downside is people from a West they can't relate to hunting pressure because they've never seen anything other than what they're hunting. So everybody thinks they're hunting pressure areas when in reality that's not true. Yeah, I think it's well, it's pressure to them, but it's not pressure to somebody else. Most Michigan hunters or PA hunters or New York hunters that I know to go west have an extremely high success rate on one weekend because their detail orient it's a different ballgame. Um So for then the hunters who are in Michigan or New York or Pennsylvania or a couple weeks ago, I told Dan, I'm going to try to get him to come and try hunting in Michigan once so he can experience that. Um, I want to talk about how people can still have success on three and a half year old bucks are older, which I know you have proven. You know you can't. You've been doing that in Michigan consistently. Um. And I wouldn't say consistently, but it happens every so many years, so maybe maybe more consistent than most people. Yeah, that would be a safe But I've got twenty seven in the book and I actually killed two last year that made book. The year before I didn't even see one that would make books. Yeah, it can be tough. So in your most recent book, I believe it was called bow Hunting the eber heart Way, and that really talked about, you know, how you guys are having success in these highly pressured states. Can you summarize in some way what the eber heart Way is? Absolutely, it's very simple. Go to areas where other hunters are not willing to make the work effort to go to. When I hunt public land, if I can walk in an upright walking position. I remember seeing a TV commercial with Michael Waddell with a climbers stand on his back walking down a two track going hunting. If you can walk in an upright position in Michigan on public land to any spot, I don't care where it is, it's worthless. I don't care how much sign there is signposting. Uh, it was like any sign posting. If it were done by a mature buck, it was probably done at nighttime signposts because basically, mature bucks, if they lived a three and a half years old in Michigan, they just do not make themselves vulnerable during daylight hours. The only time they might is during the route when they're actually on a hot dough, and that's just not the case in lightly pressure area. So so basically, if I can walk to a spot and it looks great, there's scrapes and there's rubs, if I can walk there, I setting it up. It isn't gonna happen. Most of the spots I hunt on public land, or even on a lot of private lands where I have permission with other hunters, I have to access my locations with waiters, a canoe, a boat, or crawling through brush to get back to a little clearing or an island someplace, because if you're not that's where the mature deer going through is a mature deer on the property. That's where the hunters that are hunting they are going to push in. That's the only place back in those really deep secure zones where a mature buck might feel comfortable moving during daylight hours without actually being on a hot dough. Now, other than the criteria of being you know, inaccessible by humans, you know, when you're looking for places to set up on a mature deer in in these high hunting pressure areas, imagine where you're setting up depends on the time of year. Um, can you walk us through what your ideal locations for stand setups are in the you know, first early season, then moving on to the rut, and then maybe moving on towards the later season. First off, I want to say I do. I do zero preseason scouting and stand preparation. All my hunting locations are prepped after season, before we get spring green up. That way, I'm not molesting my hunting area prior to season, because any influx of human activity in a heavily pressured area, if there is a mature buck, he's going to turn nocturnal almost immediately until the rough phases. So then hunting early season's waste of my time. But when I do hunt early season, I look for areas. You know, I'll set areas up during postseason, like get white oaks back within heavy cover, or a lost apple tree, or maybe where a ridgeline dumps down into a cap in marsh uh, you know, a train feature change, And I'll set them up during pole season, and then I'll take a quick speed tour. I don't call it scouting, it's a speed tour. You know. Obviously, if I'm setting up next to a mass tree or fruit tree, I have to check prior to season to see if it's going to air master fruit because obviously if I go there and there's no apples in an apple tree, I just wasted a hunt. So I do a speed tour in Total Salt Lock of the of my locations for early season hunting. And if I see apples and nice or white oaks, cake hoorns on the ground, and there's some sort of buck sign in the area, like scrapes or some rugs, that's a spot I'll probably hunt first day two or three this season. Okay, So then as the season progresses, then let's say you didn't have your early season's success. Now we're getting into late October maybe early November. How then, where then are you going to be hunting? Uh? And I don't have much during the October law because that's kind of waste of time during the rut phases. What I almost key, almost a hundred percent, I'm scrape areas. And typically when I say scrape areas, active scrape areas, they're going to be where there's some sort of foods are so like this little lost apple tree or the white oaks, or you know, an area where there's some sort of food source back and heavy security cover. Um. You know. That also would be a spot i'd hunted the first couple of days this season, and then I would totally leave it a little alone during the October law and I might start hunting it again pre run, maybe Halloween shortly thereafter. And it's always if I'm gonna morning hunt it, it's going to be a two hours before daylight entry so I don't spook anything coming back into bed before daylight, which is common for mature buck and a pressured area. And uh, if it's in a betting area, which I hunt betting areas a lot, it'll be an all day hunt two hours before daylight entry and after dark exit, so I don't spook anything with my entry or exit. Yeah. So, so you mentioned the scrape areas, and I've heard you and your son Chris refer to these as primary scrape areas as well. And it's something I've always been trigued by because you hear a lot of people, a lot of other hunters talk about this trend or there was a trend maybe a decade or fifteen years ago, scrapes were all the rage, and then more recently people have been talking about the fact that, well, the majority of of scrape use is during the night, and so a lot of hunters are sitting over scrapes and they're not seeing deer. Now, from what I understand from talking to Chris and from what you just said, is that what you guys are really recommending is not hunting near the scrapes that most guys think of those field edge scrapes, the scrapes around the open, but really things that are tucked back in the cover. But is that accurate? Is that is that I would never waste my time hunting a field edge in Michigan. That is to me, a total waste of time. I'll do it in Kansas or Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri. But you want a field edge in Michigan, if you want to kill a year and a half older and possibly a two and a half year old buck on field edges, you'll see a lot of dear. If you want to kill them at your buck, you're wasting your time on a field edge in a pressured area. Yeah, so I'm keying on scrape barriers that are back within heavy security cover and they're always you know, a lot of it's not going to be in something that's just solid brush. Scrape areas are always where there's an opening, there's always some semblance of an opening, and there's going to be multiple scrapes, and its scrapes are always put. Scrape areas always where there's do activity. You know, there's those that passed through that area. So it might be where a couple of train features come together in funnel deer out to a crop field that maybe you know an eighth of a mile away or so, or up to an oak ridge that's got acorns. So you know, the active scrape areas are major key. I know probably I would almost guess seventy of the bucks I've killed over the last thirty years have been active. Scrapes are that big of a deal. So would you hunt? Do you seek out and hunt these areas during the rut more often than some of the more atypical rut locations like a funnel or like a dough bedding are absolutely? Yeah? Absolutely. If I if I have an active scrape area and it is in an area with a lot of security cover, I yeah, that's that's the main target for me. I mean, but it's got to be haunted correctly. You've got to, you know, if you're gonna it's you know, if it's not within a betting area, you might it might be a morning spot, it might be an evening spot, it might be if it's in a funnel between two betting areas, you know, it might be a midday spot best served for midday hunting. Uh, interior betting areas there strictly during the rut all days. They have to be all day SIPs or you're spooking you with your entry or your exit one or the other. So I don't know if I answered your question, yeah you wanted it, but no, it's definitely helpful people that don't hunt scrapes. I don't know. What they're about, or they're not hunting the right scrapes, or they've screwed it up during the October October lull, or they're screwed they're screwed up their entry times or their exit times. Because grape areas just just say a great location. How you hunted has anything to do with how successful is the pension could be you know, pressure the area because one little fault, you know, one little fault, and you'll totally mess it up. And that's not the case out West. I mean, I hate to say that to be in because everybody, everybody thinks they're hunting pressure area. You take a person that hunts in Iowa or Kansas, Nebraska, and you bring him to Michigan or p A or New York or West Virginia and you put them on public land. I would almost that money did struggle killing a two year old in season? All right? Now, before we move on to some thoughts from Dan on this topic, we need to pause briefly for a quick ware from our partners at Sick to Gear, who have stepped up in a big way to keep the Word Hunting podcast on the air. Now. Last week we heard from Sick of product category leader Dennis Zuck about sick as approach to creating systems of clothing for different situations. And it's a pretty unique thing they're doing there. So that said, today I wanted to dive deeper into how sick and maintains such a focus on uniqueness and innovation. So here's dennists on that very topic. Yeah, you know, it's and it's kind of an interesting one because where something may sound very complicated, it starts which is a lot of simplicity. You know, typically when we look at um problems, you know, it all starts with a problem. And when we when we think about that problem, we treat out. We really try to isolate it down to it's it's its smallest, smallest component, and we write what we call products concept statements and and those are one words with a very clear understanding of of what's missing or what needs to happen, you know, and we evolve from there. And as you evolve, you know, if you're really specific about trying to fix that problem, you know things might manifest from that. Our fanatic jackets an example. You know, we started with a problem statement of keeping my hands warm. We ended with a cross it product with grunt tubes on the chest and range finders you know, easily accessible to when you're before the shot. You know, it started simple, it grew from there. But being very remembering what was most important and prioritizing your decisions is how we innovate. So how how do you keep from I would measure it's easy to fall into like the statis call? How how are you able to think outside of the box so much in a lot of these ways, in ways that you know in that example of the kangaroo pocket, that's very different, you know with a jet or the side sip. How do you guys force yourself to always look out of the boxer or do you? Uh? No, I think we do. And if you look at it, there's there's plenty examples of where you know, maybe somebody always uses a specific camo or sympto set control or something like that, you know, or or a specific jacket cut that they might use. Um, you know, we we do what we do because we we're trying to change the industry. We're trying to make a better product. So we challenge ourselves and we we challenge ourselves across their own categories and um, you know, Jonathan Hart as an example is you know, very inspirational a lot of ways. But you know, one of the things he said is we were developing our glove program was well, if they're not different, are we challenging ourselves enough? And um, and I think that's a good statement, you know. And it's constant reminding ourselves that, um, we we're putting this on us to to make a next level product. That's who we think we are. So there you go, sick of gear, constantly innovating to create next level products. And now back to the show, it's definitely a difference. So so Dan, then, you know, since we've been talking about this, what what are your questions for John? What are your thoughts after hearing this? Well, here's and you you briefly touched on your access in and out and that you're leaving these spots alone. What I want to know is are you setting up in the dark in the mornings, like going in fresh to to a particular spot or have you already set your your stands up. I hunt out of a an old sling a harness system, so my trees are prepped. No, I never go in and set a location up before I'm hunting it, you know that that day. My trees are all prepped. I don't leave stands in the trees. I walk to the tree, I climb up the tree, hook up my saddle sling saddle combination in in nine hunts, so they're all pre pre prepared. I'll have about on any given season, I'll probably have fifty trees ready to hunt. Probably will only hunt ten of them during the course of the year because obviously, if I've got trees set up on apple trees and white oaks that didn't produce master fruit that year, uh, they're worthless, they're not worth hunting. Or crop rotations in the area will affect dear movements. So if the crop, if that tree is only good years that these crops support a mile wear in corn, that's the year. All key on it. Um in years it's in beans or hey, I won't so um. I have a lot of trees pre prepped, and I don't have to go in and pre prep anything during any hunt. That's already done. Now when you say prep you are you are you talking about cutting shooting lanes? Lanes are all yeah, that's all done, okay, Because I know in Iowa, on the public land. You're not allowed to cut shooting lanes. You're not allowed, and you can't in some public land you're not allowed. You can only go in seven days prior to the season. And I didn't know if is that a rule in Michigan or no. In Michigan, you can go on the public land whenever you want. You can't shut you can't cut shooting lanes. Um, you're not supposed to cut shooting lanes, let me put it that way. And in Iowa in Kansas, when I've hunted out there, I really haven't had any need to cut shooting lanes because I'm not hunting the dense cover when I'm hunting in those states, because it's not it's not necessary. And then mature bucks out there tend to move at the same time frames as if the rest of the herd, the rest of the deer. I'm not saying the exact same, but it's not uncommon, you know, to have a come through it, you know, two hours before dark or two hours after daylight. You know, on a daily basis out there, I've never I've never seen my human activity affect dear mature buck movements. I'll west anything close to what it does here. I hate to be that blunt because it sounds cruel, but it's just a fact. I don't disagree. And then my last question is trail cameras are you Are you using trail cameras that all to help pattern a deer or let's say you see a deer working its way, but it's it's after dark, it comes by too late where you see it in the distance and you don't know if you're gonna make a move or not. Are our trail cameras in your game plane at all? Uh? I've started using trail cameras. I've used trail cameras in Kansas. I'm going to Kansas last few years. I hadn't want to die one a while, and I used can I've used cameras in Kansas for several years because it doesn't affect the deer, you know, the visits don't affect the deer. But in Michigan, I'm very cautious about trail cans. I did kill a big one last year, hundred fifty two entry in Michigan opening morning. Uh. And it was the result of a trail cam. The direct result of a trail cam. Actually, how was that? John Can you explain how you use that camera in that situation. Yeah, it was on a little twenty acre parcel and guys seeing this buck across the road and he said it was a nice one. When I was a guy trusted it was a partial parcel that I quit hunting, probably ten years ago, because I hunted it there are several years and I never saw a buck over eight inches. I never saw anything over two and a half years old, so I just quit hunting there. So I went in and got permission from the lady again, and there's a little cattail marsh on the property. So I went back, UH buy some white oaks near the cattails, and I set up a camera and I got a picture of this big ten point and there was four other smaller bucks. So I went back. I checked, you know, when I checked the camera, he was on there. So I went back on let's see, it was September eight is the next time I went to checked the camera and the big ten was the only one out developed. The other four were there, but they were still in delvet. So I went and found his rubs. I knew if I found rubs it would be his, and I set up a tree as soon as we got a good hard grain and I show him opening morning. Wow, it was pretty simple because he was rubbed out on the camera. That let me know that if I found some rugs, that would be his route because all the other deer was still involve it. And I set up and I waited for rain to cover my scent noise and set up a tree and opening morning went into to our sturday and showing me at the quarter after night. You do make it sound very easy. That's the easiest bok I've ever killed. That's pretty awesome. In Michigan's handed down the easiest buck I've ever patterned. And that was an early morning or that was early season morning hunt opening day, Kenyon, Mark Kenny, did you just hear that? Yes? I did. I did. John, Me and Dan have another ongoing dialogue UM about morning hunts during October, and I'll explain to you maybe my thoughts on I'd love to hear your perspective. Um. I tend to avoid most October morning hunts because it's my belief that I think, as you mentioned a while ago, most mature bucks, especially heavily pressured states, from what I've seen and heard, are coming back to bed really early, and so it's pretty tough to get in there without spooking the deer. And if I do, if I get in there before he's in there, there's still a good chance if I'm anywhere near his betting here, and when they circle back in down wind, typically from what I've seen the bed, they'd likely win me um. So I tend to focus more of my hunts during early to mid October towards the evening because those seem to be higher odds, lower risk, and I wait till late October early November to start hunting those mornings sits. Again, that's not a rule, but kind of my general um pattern that I followed. Dan always kind of challenges me to try more hunting in in those mornings. I'm curious, what's your I think this is kind of funny. Do you guys argue about it? Because I've killed four bucks in Michigan, four book bucks in Michigan on opening morning, or I should say in the first two days of the season, because one was on October second, and they were all four on morning, and other than this one laughed fall all the other three I rattled them in. So I saw that at a distance and it was in security cover and bedding areas. And two of the times there was two bucks sparring. One of my I actually could see them sparring a hundred and some yards away in the betting area in a little opening, and I rattled after they were finished, and they both came in at ten and an eight point. I sat the ten point, and another one was I heard two. I heard two bucks sparring. I couldn't see them, but they sounded like they had some anlers. You know, they sound a lot different when they're hundred, you know versus hundred fifty. But I could hear a couple of bucks barring, and when they quit, I rattled in the in the ten and it was a ten point again that came in and I shot him. Wasn't a monster, but it was a nice ten. And the other one was I was back probably hundred guards off the hayfield, and before before daylight, I heard two bucks sparring in the hayfield. And you know, as soon as the crack daylight, I sparred in. An eight point came right in and on shot up. I rattled them all in. Because that early early October, they're kind of sparring for their you know, dominance, and you know, and I'm I'm going that's over the last twenty five years. Those were all within the last twenty five years. One one was in ninety two and now the other one was way before that. I was in the seventies and then one last year. So that being the case, and it sounds like that's kind of the exception. But are you still hunting a lot of October mornings or is it really something like if you if you think there's a great chance in my going, but not a lot. I always faun in October one in the morning, probably October one, in October second, and it's typically in a bedding area. I'm not too concerned about spooking a deer in a betting area on October one if I know the next time I'm going to hunt that betting area is not going to be for another month, you know, into November pre rut. So you know, bucks typically, like you said, Mark, they're in the betting areas before daylight, but once they're in the betting areas and in that security cover, they're much more apt to move. So if you're much more likely to get them to move to you with some sort of tactic. Mind happened to be with rattling tactics because they're in that heavy security cover. But they all of them had moved into the security cover before daylight, interesting into the betting areas. So so, something else you had mentioned when you're talking about the buck you killed on opening morning the other year, UM was the fact that you had saw the rubs that you um identified as his based on the fact that he was the first one to rub off his velvet. So, in general, can you share this more detail about how you value rubs. When you find rubs, how do you, you know, incorporate that into your strategy or you're scouting data, how do you use those when you find out I I don't pay a lot of attention to rubs. The only time I really pay attention to rubs when I'm doing my preseason speed tour, checking to see if trees have actual mast and actual fruit, or going into a betting area and again I'm in total sunt lock and rubber boots. I am sent regiment into the max. Um. You know, if if I see a rub line in a betting area, there's you know, there's an excellent chance that's going to be one of the places I hunt in the first either two mornings or two evenings. That's in bed morning. It's strictly be a morning. If it's an e betting area, there's no way I'd go in there on an evening because that's spook them with an entree um. But as far as you know, if I've got a mask or a fruit tree back in security cover, you know, I like to verify some sort of buck activity. And a lot of times that early in the year there's no scrapes, but there are rubs. So rubs verified that there is the actual buck activity at this tree that's dropping apples or this white oak that's dropping acorns. So rubbs, I I look at them for that perspective. As far as you know, Greg Miller wrote a book on rub line of secrets. I don't put a lot of thought into rubs. You know, when you're hunting. He always used on some pretty pristine property in Wisconsin in rubs meant a lot because they were using those germs. You know, they were rubbing, using rubs out in open timber during daylight hours because there's not a lot of pressure where he was hunting in Michigan. That's not the case. If you see rubs out in open timber is probably made after dark. So so that's you know, how you're using rubs. I feel we have a good idea of that. And you mentioned how you're looking at scrapes and that type of sign. Can you detail a little more for us what you're the rest of your scouting regiment looks like, because I know scouting is very important for you and other than scrapes and rubs are if there's anything else, is there more to your scouting routine? Can you share this what that is, whether that's postseason, preseason, etcetera. Well, it's all like I said, all my tree prepes is postseason. Um. Really I hunt pretty high, you know, I get up there pretty high. Is because typically most bucks I shooted during the rut when all the foliage is down, so I like to be up out of their peripheral vision. Um. I definitely key on scrapes, and I definitely key on you know, masks and fruit. I don't make it any more difficult than it needs to be, which I think a lot of people do. UM A key on specific things, and and that's and inbedding areas and that's about it. I just I just try to hunt smart, you know, I just don't hunt them until I think they're ready to hunt. And I'm I don't pay any attention to wind direction. So tell us why that is. I used sunt locked and rubber boots and sunt lock pack, and I reactivated regenerate everything, and I take pristine care of it, and that that works consistently enough that you're able to hunt and have deer downwind of view and it will get away with it all the time. In fact, I'm writing a and I don't get paid for this. This is a freeby. I'm writing a weekly post for suntlock and it's time. If you just google suntlock blog, it will come right up. And I'm getting ready to do a whole lot of activated carbon technology stuff. So for anybody that wants to really know what's going on in the scent technology world, that's something they can follow. Very cool. I I will make sure to link to that blog. I checked it out already actually, and you've got You've got some great articles on there just about general hunting tactics and preparation too that I found pretty helpful. So good stuff. Thank you. So you mentioned a couple of different things there. Again, I keep on hearing these different things that I want to dive into, and it's sending me off on ten thousand different paths about Dan. Feel free to put me back on track if we need to. But you talked about heading in to hunt some of these mornings and one of the things. Again, this is something I picked up from you guys a decade ago, So was your how early you get in in the mornings. And a lot of my friends give me a hard time about how early I go in to set my tree stands. Um, you know, I'm getting in there an hour and a half, sometimes two hours before daylight, and people call me crazy. Can you tell me how early are you getting into your tree stands and why during the rout phases it is I shouldn't say just turn early season, first few days of season, which I key on is pretty good, first two or three days of season, and during the ruck phases, I am always not once in a while, I am always in my tree, settled in in quiet an hour and a half before daylight, before the crack of daylight. Because typically in pressured areas, and this is even true a lot of other mediocre pressured areas. And you know, I consider Missouri of mediocre pressured area. I was a very likely pressured area. But the typical routine of a mature bucking in a pressure areas, he will go into his betting area or not necessarily a betting area, but in some security cover in bed down usually a half hour to at least an hour, you know, before daylight. And then during the rut phases, he will get up after all the deer traffic has moved through, and he'll get up ten eleven o'clock and he'll send check his core area for hot dose that pass through, you know, just after daylight. So you know that's that midday thing during the rut is a big deal. But you also, if you're going to a morning how you gotta be in your spot well before he comes into bed because if you're in a betting area hunting in a betting area and he comes in to the betting area, let's say half or for you minute for daylight, because he's in secure cover, and because he may let's say he goes in there and lays down, he doesn't hear anybody or anything. You know, they can tell their in between a human walking in a deer walking if he doesn't hear a human walking into the betting area. If it's a smaller betting area, there's a chance he might get up after daylight and browls around and eat, eats some or sniff around, and you might get an opportunity, especially if there's a you know, a white oak or something in the in the actual betting area for him to come over and feed at, or a creek for him to come and drink at. So you know that before before daylight's a big deal. I don't do that out West. Out West, I'm getting in my tree a half hour four daylight because those of you don't typically move in when I see out West Kansas, Iowa, those of you don't typically move in that early. The usually move in after daylight. Are you ever hunting a stand more than one day in a row. Yes, And it's totally based on how I'm affecting dear activity. If my entry is an extra exits are not affecting dear activity, And I'm seeing pretty much the same exact traffic without any alteration in their in their presence, you know, they're not more cautious when they're coming in um, and it's a hot spot like a scrape brier. Yeah, hunted scrape ariers as many as four sits in a row if it's really hot. And I know, I haven't altered anything, but I have to have a really good entry route where I'm not spooking anything with my entry, and I have to have a really good ex r route where I'm not spooking anything with my exit. And it's very common to have a different entry route than exit route. You know, gives me the hunter. And at that point you're you're still not concerned about wind at all. Never do you consider wind at all in how you're well, not I'm not in regarding even in my tree setups. So not even how dear, not even how deer use the wind? Do you think about how they're going to move with the wind? Interesting, So you're saying a good spot is a good spot regardless of the wind direction. Yes. Now, I've had bucks I've hunted in scrape areas where I've killed mature bucks that have came in to the down wind side of the scrape area. They didn't go actually into the scrapes, they just sent checked it from the down wind side. But I was set up on the down wind side. I'm after a specific see because I don't use cameras in Michigan, and I don't go out and look for deer and stuff like that. I'm hunting sign or I'm hunting local destination locations. So if if I, for some odd reason know there's a big buck in the area, uh, and I know I've got a tree set up on a scrape area, and I know a big buck, you know, a three or four year olds more apt to check it from the down wind side. I'll wait for the right wind where the tree I set up is on the downlind side before I hunted. Has nothing to do with me getting winded. Just how that deer, how the wind affects how that deer is gonna check. That's great, Yeah, that makes sense. UM. Now, this I think connects nicely to another topic that I wanted to talk about, which um, from a lot of things I've seen you put out, their timing is really important when it comes to when you hunt certain areas UM or you know prioritize certain times of the year. Can you tell us a little bit about how you time your hunts and how that's important in your overall hunting strategy. And I guess first I'm curious about time, like chronologically throughout the fall, and then second, I'm curious about how you pay attention to external factors like whether or anything like that, and how that affects the time of your hunts. Uh, Weather's interesting, and I'll touch on that. Don't let me forget, but I key on the pre pre rut. I key on pre rut, which would be like Halloween until Member five to seven. You know, then we get into the full blown rut after the after the fifth or the seventh, depending on the year, does start coming into heat. And once the doughs start coming into heat, the bucks that I want to kill, which would be the dominant buck for the area, because there's so few of them in the areas that I hunt, they're always doted up, so patterns are out the window. Pre rut of mature dominant buck has some semblance of a routine. You know, he's going to go bed before day, like, get up midday, sent check his core area for those that might have came in earlier in the morning, and be back down at two or three o'clock in the afternoon, and then get up to move after dark out into the crop fields and continue chasing those. So pre rut, there is a routine, and they're much more apt to check their scrape area because again scrape areas are made are put where there's a lot of dough traffic. So you know, they're more apt to check a scrape area because they're not already with a hot dough. Once the rut starts and all the does start coming into asters, then those patterns go out the window because now they're following dope patterns, and you know, there's not a whole lot of rhyme. The reason, you know, it's a guy that hasn't got a clue can be sitting in a BFC tree and kill a monster buck just because a dope drug him by there when she when he was chasing her and he just happened to you know, she doesn't have to run by this guy's guy's tree. As as you guys know, if you hunted a long time, you know during the rut you'll see bucks chasing does on definitely unpatternable ropes. And when it comes to weather, probably my favorite weather to hunting is a drizzly rain. Yeah, this is one of those topics that in Michigan. Let me put it that way. So can you expand on that? Why do you like hunting those light raining days? I think the dominant bucks feel a lot more comfortable moving because they're not making noise when it's dry and quiet. Every time a mature buck takes a step, they stop and you know, see if there's a reaction to it. When it's drizzly rain, they don't. They move a lot more steady. Um. They can smell better, you know, if you go out and when the ground is damp snow a beagles much better at track and rabbit and animals can just smell better when there's a light mister, you know, moisture in the air, so they can smell better. Uh, they make less noise, and I think in pressure areas they they probably while they're growing up, has had less interactions with hunters moving during rain weather because they're growing up, is you know, from fawns to year and a half ordinance to two an a half and and maybe feel a little more coomfortable. I don't know how a deer feels, but that's just my ache on it. Yeah, I feel like I've definitely seen a similar pattern. One hunting in Michigan. That those light rainy days, late rainy days. Whenever I see that in the forecast, I'm in the woods, like I make sure to be there, and I have just seen consistently. Like if I if I were to go back and look at my last five years of mature buck sightings in Michigan, I off the top of my head, I would guess that six out of ten have been on rainy days. Um, I think it really there really is something to what you're saying there. Um, what about other kind of weird because do you know, if you want to see a lot of dolls and funds and sporting the bucks, nice sunny days are the best days. So you know that's that's the one thing during during foul weather, you're going to see less deer in general, but you're more apt to see a mature buck. Yeah, Now, what about others? I don't like to say this just to Michigan. You've got when we're talking pressure, we've got to include New York, PA, the whole northeast and east coast down into Kentucky, parts of Ohio, um, parts of Wisconsin. You know those areas there's a lot of hunting pressure in certain areas of in certain areas of every state. I'm sure there's places in I would get a decent amount of hunting pressure. Yeah, it seems like there there is those those pockets just about anywhere. Um, But can I say one Can I interrupt for a second. I want to give you one one stat because I do I put together in every book all the hunting stats. Now the words, I take license sales for every state, bowl license sales, and and i'd take p and y entries for every state for that specific year, and I divide pen y entries in two license sales. So that gives you a pretty general take on how you know what's the ratio of a licensed hunters per pope and young entry ratio? Are you with me? Fella? Okay? Io wan in Kansas for about one out of every hundred and fifty depending on the year, licensed bull hunters enters a pop and young buck Michigan and nine averages about one out of every five thousand one p A is about the same as Michigan, and so as New York. So basically, if you took with that that statistic, if you took I'm doing my bath correctly. I remember correctly from Michigan, and they hunted for fifty full seasons in Michigan, only one of them would enter a pope young buck. That's how bad it is. And another neat statistic is when I did the top five states, which is Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, and I think North Dakota. As far as p and y entries per licensed hunters, if on those five states, the average buck entry was almost fifteen inches larger than those from the east Northeast. They had it fifteen inches more bone, which means a lot of people in those states don't even enter the bucks because it's not a big deal to kill a pope on buck out in those states. You tell p and my bucket Michigan, I mean, everybody freaks out, as you well know, Mark, Yeah, yeah, I do. I know. It's a lot different where in Iowa people kill one sixty and it just goes in the barn. So yeah, And there's and there's a reason that all these TV guys who I have absolutely no credibility for, uh, there's a reason they hunt an Iowa in Kansas and Nebraska. It's because it's easier to kill big bucks, even though they might be from Michigan or from the east. That's where they gravitate the hunt because and there's a reason for that, because they can't get it done on TV where they where they were from. Yeah, it's no easy task, that's for sure. No, and deer huntings hard, bonnings hard everywhere. So like sure as I don't want to give everybody the impression that they're falling out of the sky out west. But it's just a different animal. Yeah. So so one last thing on weather, if I can take a step back, Um, we talked about rain. Are there any other factors weather factors that you key in on. Um? Obviously snow like hunting in the snow, it's the same deal. It's just precipitation. UM, light snow, not a heavy snow. And I don't mind hunting in wind as long as it's not like thirty forty gusts. So I don't mind hunting in wind because I think sure bucks. I've killed a couple really nice bucks on windy days. I shot one in Illinois on public land in the Sepcember. I think it was the number two thousand eight, and it was a thirty five hours stiff wind and it was seven degrees before the chill factor. And uh, I saw five bucks that afternoon on public land, two days after gun season ended until the twelve point, and it was really windy. I almost got out of the tree and went back to the hotel because I said, there's no way I'm gonna see anything here. And then I saw five bucks, all in the last fifteen minutes a day late. Geez, that's one of those days where you're really glad that either you stuck it out through the wind, that's for sure. I can't, honestly can't believe I stayed there. I can't even leave hunting that day. But I proved something to myself. You know, you know, you can't kill a deer in the hotel room. And that's what I thought when I'd sent in this tree and my tears are running down my face because of the wind chill, and I was like, you know what, I can't kill a deer in the hotel and I'm here on a very short term hunt, so I might as well stick it out. I have the clothes for it. I was nice and cozy, so wow. So I've got a handful of other things here I want to try to touch on real week. Um, calling and decoin. Those are tactics that can work great out in some of the states farther west. What are your thoughts on using those types of tactics in high pressure areas well? As I mentioned earlier, I've killed three bucks in the first two days of both season by rattling them. Rattling them in I mean, they were all opening mornings. I think one was in the seventies, nineteen ninety nine. And then when I shot last year, wasn't rattled, but that was an opening morning too. Uh So I used tactics a lot in Michigan. Um, they work much much better out west. And you can be a lot more aggressive out west. If you rattled aggressively like you see on TV. You know where they got these big fake antlers and they smashed them together. You did that here, you spook everything in the neighborhood. Um. But if you rattle, and you do it subtly like sparring sparring sequences, and you do it in security cover at the right time to the day, or you know, I've had my best luck in the mornings because it seems I get in the morning's deer a lot more calm. You know, they've been moving all night. They've had no pressure. You know, they're just in a calmer state in the morning than in the evening. In the evening they think, you know, it's like they're walking on eggshells because they're getting up. They've been better at all day. Now they're going out in its daylight and there's human activity, and they're kind of freak out. That's why most big books don't move till it's dark. But tactics do work. I think I've killed two decent books. They didn't make book in Michigan with a decoy. I've killed several book bucks. That's killed a couple of books books using a carry light decoy. Uh. They were both in Iowa. One was injured, and Uh, tactics were great out of state, out west. Um in Michigan. You've got to be very very cautious, and if you're gonna rally, you got very subtly, not very frequently, not very long, not very loud, and you've got to do it at the right times and in the right places. Everything boils down to the place and the time in the situation. I mean, that's basically what bow hunting boils down too. Yeah, so true. Now, something that you we haven't touched on yet, um, And I know from my experience at least that this is something that's a particular challenge for those in high hunting pressure areas, is hunting in the late season, especially like in Michigan. We've got such a long, long gun season and the muzzleloader season. There's a ton of pressure. Um. Do you have any can you share your perspectives on hunting the late season and any advice for having success in high hunting pressure areas during that time of year. Yes, a lot of state. I've killed one killed two decent bucks in Michigan in December in fifty one seasons, and uh it's after Michigan has like fifty two days a gun season and in December. If you're after too an area three and a half year old or older, dear your odds of getting an opportunity in a pressured area. And there are there are a lot of managed areas in Michigan where you know, people own big chunks land and they got food plots and stuff. So not all of Michigan is pressured by any stretch of the means, But if you're in a precured area, your odds of getting an opportunity to the three and a half year old old or buck in December after that much gun season is about as close to zero as you could get. Now when I went to Illinois, have been to Illinois and public Land in mid December twice or three times, and I was successful twice. So two out of three for a December hunt. That was I was very very happy with those odds because it was right after their gun this season. Yeah, that's pretty incredible. But I did something kind of different. Um it was on It was in parks that uh, you know, during their November Bowl hunt, you have to have permits, but in December they're just open. Anybody can go there bowing, and I always called the park ranger. I'd keep an eye on the weather and I would always wait for winter storm to come through. So as soon as I saw there was a storm coming through, I would call. As soon as I saw it go through on the radar, I'd call the park ranger the next day and asked how much snow they got fresh snow, and you know, if they had like six plus inches of snow, I would My van was all My van is always loaded and ready for deer. I would jump in my van to take off, because then when I go there and I scout, I'm looking at sign that was made within the last twenty four hours. So I'm looking at current patterns. I'm not looking at up and left on the ground. It could have been four weeks ago. So I'm looking at current patterns and and uh had made a big, big difference. Is that something you would suggest for late season hunters anywhere? Yes? Absolutely, Yeah, because you're looking at current you know, you're looking at patterns within the last twenty four hours. And typically even in Michigan, uh, you know, the patterns left within the last twenty four hours in December, deer very pattern oriented. They're basically going back to their betting to feeding routine. Anything. In Michigan, you're the bigger bucks, dudes, there is a big, big Bucky. You're just not gonna do it during daylight hours. It's gonna be after dark, whereas in the Illinois or someplace ELTs it could be a big buck during daylight hours. Yeah. Interesting. Uh So, Dan, do you have any final questions for John? I have a general question. All right, you have fifty one boat seasons under your belt. I'm sure you've failed a lot, and then you've been successful lot as well. To get you to, you know, the style of hunting that you that you currently are doing. What is one thing that a hunter on a high pressured piece of property should do and one thing that they should not ever do? One thing that they should do? Oh boy, I would If I had to put one thing on it would be sent control. Sent control is just a major deal no matter where you're at. I don't care what state you're in. Set control is a big issue because if you're after mature buck in High Word, Kansas and they went to you're still done. Um, it's over. So set control would be my number one issue. And again, if you follow that sent lock blog to scent control parts not gonna be up for Bob Another's three weeks. That's when it's going to start, and it's gonna be probably six six weeks of posts on carbon technology. So I would say sun control. And then the one thing I wouldn't do was that the second part. Yeah, one thing you would never do on a field edge. A field edge too simple, too pretty simple things for our listeners to take away. And you know what's what's interesting about the field edge deal. I know so many hunters, you know, they read stuff and they'll say key on a scrape period or key on rubs, and they'll walk along the edge of a pitcorn field or a hay field or a bean field, you know, something that's short where a deer is exposed, and they might find a scrape period, or they might find a bunch of rubs along a crop field. And and that's all stuff that's done after dark. Now, if it was if you if I were to find a scrape area and it butted up next to a standing cornfield, there is an excellent chance that I would hunt that opening day of season, because you know, mature bucks are very likely to be better than the standing gorn. So you're basically got cover to cover as long as you've got brush on the one side and then standing corn on the other, you're hunting a five feet to five yard transitions on from cover to cover. And so if there's scrapes there, there's an excellent chance that those might be visited during daylight hours. But as far as scrapes or the best sign on the face of the earth being along as short crop field that's picked, or a bean field or a hay Field in a pressure area. It's to me, it's just a total waste of time. It may be successful one out of a thousand months, but it doesn't warrant me spending any time there because the percentages are just too low, and I always hunt percentages. Yeah, that's what it seems. That's what boning mature bucks is all about, is trying to understand the percentages and figure out how you can get many of the odds in your favor and then making a move on them. Yeah, that's that's it, very simple, right, It's a simple analogy, exactly. It sounds simple. It never it never goes that way though. So my final question for you, John, this has been this has been awesome. I've taken a lot of interesting things from this. I'm sure everyone else has to. Um. Me and Dan talk a lot about you know, we make all sorts of mistakes out there in the woods, but the key is to always learn something from those mistakes and get better from it. So, so my question for you is, if you can think back over the past fifty one seasons that you've had, is there any one encounter or experience or mistake you made was the greatest learning experience for you in the long run, can you show that with us too? Too? And they were both the same mistake. Um at the time I was, I was younger. These were both in the seventies, and both times I had like and you've got to keep the mind. Back in the seventies, Michigan had a million gun hunters. Okay, so there was way fewer mature bucks then than there are now because there was a lot more gun hunting pressure. Um. So, back in the seventies, on two different occasions, I had a mature buck within about thirty to thirty five yards. Keep in mind, this was before laser range winters, and I practiced at thirty five yards. I had a thirty five yard tenant. I could hit a six cent circle at thirty five yards with broadheads. And both of those times it was during the rut, and both of those times the deer the bucks were en route to me. So I rather than take the shot when they offered it, because both times they stopped and offered me a decent quartering away or broadside shot, and I didn't take it because their path was coming closer there. I felt both times were going to come within ten the fifteen yard chip shots. And both times they caught wind or saw a dough that I did not know was they're up in the timber, and they took off after him. So I learned valuable lesson. You know, that was within my comfortable shooting distance, and I should both times they they would have been the biggest buck I had shot up to that point. And and so I learned a valuable lesson that if it's within your comfort wheelhouse shooting distance, take the shot. If it's a good quartering quartering away your broadside shot, if you're comfortable with the shot angle. Uh, Because especially during the rut Man, they could change their mind at the drop of a hat. Um. That's one lesson I have never forgot. You always remember the times you mess up you much more so than the times you're successful. Yeah, the ones you mess up on always stick in the back of your cross. And that's a good thing because if if you're not learning, you're not moving forward. And that right there is uh. I say that the moral of all of our podcasts has been that line right there. If you're not learning, you're not moving forward. And that's what it's really all about, is for all deer owners, right it's going out there enjoying yourself, screwing up sometimes and learning from it and becoming a better deer hunter because of it. So what life is about? Yeah, that's true too, business or whatever you do. If you're not taking a chance and learning, you're not going to move forward in the life periods. If you're afraid of failure, you're never going to move forward. And I think that's a perfect place first to wrap things up, John, because that's some wise words for everyone. So this is you know, like I mentioned, this has been great for anyone out there that's that's listening who wants to, you know, get more of your information and your books or your articles or anything. Where can they go online for that? For that stuff? I saw my books three books uh at in videos and they're strictly the instructional videos and kills on them uh dear d e er hyphen j O h N dot net or all you'd have to do is google Johnny Brewharden. It would pop up perfect. I will make sure to include those links on the podcast for this episode, So anyone listening make sure check that out. Um. You know, as I mentioned earlier, I highly recommend all of John's books. I own them all, I've read them all multiple times. They're absolute gems, so check them out. And John, thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate it. Thanks Mark, Thanks Dan. Yep, you have a good one. Okay, you too, all right, Johnny, bye bye, all right. Well that is going to be at first today and in closing a few quick updates. First, as we mentioned a couple of weeks ago, I think you can now buy Wired Hunt truck details at wired hunt dot com slash shop and that's where we'll also find our hats and shirts, so check all those out there too, and other news. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast on itun tunes or if you use Android, check out stitcher um. Those two apps will make it a lot easier for you to get each week's podcast delivered right to your mobile device, so be sure check that out. Finally, we'd like to thank our partners who helped make the Wired to Hunt podcast possible. Big thank you too, Sick of Gear, Trophy, Ridge Bear, Archery, Redneck, Blinds, Hunter, a, Maps, Ozonics, Carbon Express, Lacrosse Boots in the White Tail Institute of North America. Most importantly, though, thank you for joining us. We appreciate you tuning in and I hope you learned a lot from John in this episode. I know I did so. Until next time, a great week, and stay wired to hunt.