00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to the White Tail Woods presented by first Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light, Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. 00:00:19 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on the show, we are discussing the top conservation issues relevant to hunters and anglers to keep an eye on in twenty twenty six, and I'm joined by Devin Od and Chris Burgotti of backcountry Hunters and Anglers. All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, and welcome to. 00:00:45 Speaker 3: The new year. 00:00:46 Speaker 2: It should be January first, I believe, or right around that when this. 00:00:49 Speaker 3: Podcast first drops. 00:00:51 Speaker 2: So happy new year, Welcome to twenty twenty six, and today's conversation is going to be all about looking forward into this new year and some of the key issues, challenges and opportunities that we should be aware of and keeping an eye on related to hunting and fishing and wildlife and wild places, the things that we need to keep doing, the things that we love. What do we need to keep tabs on, what do we need to be engaging in? There was so much going on in twenty twenty five, there were so many headlines, there were so many social media posts and podcasts and on and on and on. Right, you were inundated by it. I was inundated by it. What's the new year going to look like? That's what I want to discuss today and kind of do it in a little bit more of a general way. Our two guests today come from back country hunters and anglers. They are the Western Policy and Conservation Manager and the Eastern Policy and Conservation Manager for back country hunters and anglers. On the western end is Devin Ode. On the eastern side is Chris Borgotti. And you know, rather than working in Washington, d C. They are, prayer primarily working at the local level, on the state level, working with fishing game commissions and agencies and state houses. 00:02:07 Speaker 3: And legislatures and all that kind of stuff. 00:02:10 Speaker 2: And then of course with the grassroots membership spread out across the nation. 00:02:15 Speaker 3: And so I've reached out to them and just asked them to come. 00:02:18 Speaker 2: To the table today with with some high level sets of kind of issues or or key focus areas when it comes to what might be in store for twenty twenty six, what we as hunters and anglers can influence in twenty twenty six. So we're not going to be talking about like some specific mine or some specific piece of legislation that we need to fight against or support. This is a little bit more general we speak about. I'm kind of stealing a little bit of the thunder here, but I'm going to tell you what the four main categories are that we're going to get into. We're going to discuss key things to understand about conservation funding in twenty twenty six, key things to understand about public land management, key things on the access to lands and waters, and then finally some interesting things going on related to wildlife crossings, fish crossings, connecting wildlife habitat of all types. Those are the four kind of overarching categories that we're going to discuss. 00:03:16 Speaker 3: Chris and Devin help us do that. 00:03:18 Speaker 2: And a really important thing that I think we discuss here, and that's I think hopefully going to be continued to address throughout this entire year and year after year after year, is not just what's going on there, but really what can we do? How do we, as an average everyday American hunter and angler actually influence change? 00:03:39 Speaker 3: How do we impact things? 00:03:40 Speaker 2: How do we make sure we are educated enough to take action and know what to do that leads to healthy wildlife populations, healthy fish populations, access to healthy accessible public lands or quality private lands, having the opportunities to go out there and do these things that we love so much. That's a big part of what we discussed too, is how do you actually influence change? 00:04:04 Speaker 3: How do you. 00:04:05 Speaker 2: Actually engage with your state agency, or your senator's office, or your state representative, your national forest planning committee, whatever it is. We discussed that. I think it's really important. I think it will be useful, and that is how I want us to kick off this new year, is thinking about how we can make things better. 00:04:25 Speaker 3: Because we all have that opportunity. 00:04:27 Speaker 2: We all can make a difference, but it does take us choosing to do so and then putting in that work to make it happen. So I'm very excited that twenty twenty six is here, that we get to kick things off in this kind of way. I'm excited that you are here with us. I appreciate it. So without any further ado, let's get to my chat with Chris Borgatti and Devin Ode from backcountry Hunters and Anglers. 00:04:55 Speaker 3: All right with me. 00:04:56 Speaker 2: Now on the line is Devin od and Chris Borgatti of BHA. 00:05:01 Speaker 3: Welcome to the show, gentlemen, Thanks for. 00:05:03 Speaker 4: Having us appreciate it. 00:05:06 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited for this conversation. I'm excited because when this episode drops, it will be the new year. It will be twenty twenty six, the first day of the new year is the scheduled date for this to go live. And we've just come off of a pretty crazy twelve months, pretty tumultuous, pretty headline grabbing year. When it comes to the things that the three of us care about, I think most of our listeners too, wildlife, wild places, hunting and fishing opportunities and access public lands, all the above. How are you guys personally feeling coming off of a year like this? You know, maybe you can kick us off, Chris. I gotta believe that working in the conservation sector, working in this line of business has been a wild ride. 00:05:58 Speaker 5: It definitely has to be. If it wasn't for the fact that the hunting season eventually did come around, I would be completely spent and exhausted because I was pretty much there when when September hit. So to get back in the woods, to get up in a tree to get you know, the duck boat situated. All of those things was the sort of you know, hey, this is what this is why you do this, this is why we've been going at a frenetic pace since January. And you know it came at the right time. I'll say it that way. 00:06:46 Speaker 3: Yeah, what about you devon? 00:06:49 Speaker 4: You know, I think an important disclaimer here is Chris and I just both got off of our back country weeks last week. So BHA is a policy where you get an extra week of PTO as long as you use it for hunting fishing five days in a row. 00:07:02 Speaker 3: So that's pretty great. 00:07:03 Speaker 4: We both, you know, are coming off that one. So i'd say with riding high, you know, also spending some time in a tree shooting some ducks. And you know, if it wasn't for that, if you'd asked me a week prior, I probably would have, you know, not had the same bright outlook or or been as cheery after getting revamped from public lands. But yeays, it was quite you know, I would say tumultuous, just overwhelming of times. But you know, I think when you get a chance to get back out and realize why you're doing it, and the importance of it all. It kind of quickly fades away and gets you recharge and reset for another year. 00:07:42 Speaker 3: Yeah, Thank goodness for the outside. 00:07:46 Speaker 2: It is the ultimate rejuvenator, no doubt about that. So when you look forward to twenty twenty six, do you have a sense do you have any kind of prediction is this going to be a repeat of twenty twenty five with all the things we've just discussed, or do you sense that maybe things will settle down and that you guys will be able to get some sleep again and the rest of us can kick back and get bat and sassy again. What are you What do you think on that front? 00:08:15 Speaker 3: Devin? 00:08:19 Speaker 4: I don't think it's possible to repeat this year, you know. I think it's it's gonna look a lot different next year. You know, I think things will will settle in a little bit politically, you know, at the state level, it's always it's always kind of a crapshoot that that stuff seems to just kind of pop up all over the place, and there's just so many different bills to wade through. But you know, I would say we're gonna we're gonna likely see some of the same themes but maybe some of those themes sort of evolving understanding, you know how things like you know, the big elephant in the room, the public land sales from this summer, and BHA is you know, united, we stand campaign United, we stand for public lands. I think we're gonna see BHA is definitely going to keep moving that forward. We're gonna double down there. But I don't think we're going to see another senator ly attempt to sell three million acres during budget reconciliation. That being said, I think that will evolve, and it'll be popping up in different areas in different ways potentially with you know, looking at land transfers or looking at smaller parcels, you know, the resource management planning process. And I think we're gonna we're gonna see maybe not on the same type of broad scale, but similar threats and really important areas for hunters and anglers to stay engaged in in the political process. 00:09:52 Speaker 2: Okay, And what about you, Chris, on your on your side there, what are you sense coming down the line? 00:09:58 Speaker 5: Well, there are some things that aren't settled yet that we really you know, had some serious call to actions on last year that you know, the administration will be sort of finalizing their position after sorting through public comment and things like that. So we're going to be dealing with some of that stuff again. So that's not completely settled for sure. But I will say that the silver lining, at least at the state level often that we've seen in a bunch of different places is that state legislatures and state officials they kind of want to push back a little bit on some of the the more sort of things we've kind of lost, or at least the feeling of having lost control of certain things. So that said, I think there's a willingness to sort of tackle tough issues at the at the local level, and we saw some of that last year, and I think we'll continue to see that, uh in this in this new year as well, So that in that respect, I think we're gonna have some good opportunities to to to make some really positive impacts at the at the state level. 00:11:18 Speaker 2: Okay, that's encouraging, and maybe that's a perfect place for us to to kind of jump to next, which is, you know, some specifics. What I really wanted to hopefully cover here is is specific either threats coming in the next year or opportunities coming the next year that hunters and anglers should be watching for, should be paying attention to, should be ready to take action on, because I think one of the most important, well one of the greatest overarching I think threats or challenges that we face is is just people who care about wildlife and wild places and these opportunities and these resources. Is the perpetual looming cloud of bad stuff going on and we as individuals feeling like we don't have any power or any influence over them. Right, There's that There's always this threat of that kind of feeling of apathy or helplessness to seep in. But the antidote to that, I think is always action. It's like, what can I do? How can I somehow be involved? How can I do a little bit today or next month or or anything like that. That seems to be like this little bit of magic that if you can access that it can change, you know, not only change things on the ground, but just change things like in your head. At least personally, I found that to be the case. So what I'm really hoping we can achieve here is is to understand what's coming, but then also understand now what, like what does that mean for me listening, how do I do something about one of these things or four of these things or whatever it is, So to kind of preview where I'm hoping we can go. That's kind of how I want to approach all this. So when I say all that, Chris, and maybe we can kind of go back and forth. I might just kind of pitch it to you, Chris and the new Devin, and we can kind of go back and forth and each of you can share with me in us a handful of those top issues or opportunities coming down the line that are top of mind for you, and then that should be top of mind for just hunters and anglers across the nation. So, Chris, what's the first thing that you would say that we need to be ready for, watching for and paying attention to. 00:13:25 Speaker 5: I think one that really provides is sort of a something we have to pay attention to, but it's also a real opportunity is related to conservation funding. And I say that's a pretty high level. So I'm talking about conservation funding at sort of the just overall state level in terms of what might be used for land management or land acquisition, but also for state fishing game agencies. A lot of state fishing game agencies are really in a tight spot in terms of budgeting and there's a lot of opportunities there that you know, we as hunters and anglers, as the main constituents for these for these agencies, have to really kind of step up and be a constructive voice around. Sometimes it comes in the form of changes and license fees. There's a lot of there's a lot of state agencies that haven't reckoned with that change in many many years. Others are trying to find new and different avenues to create new funding streams. The one thing we have to keep in mind is, I think, is the fact that just operating costs have steadily increased for state agencies. Pensions or health insurance, all of these things that they have to provide for their employees, like those have increased dramatically over the years. And that's just that's just the like keep the doors open kind of costs, right, that's not even like money on the ground putting people where they need to be, managing wildlife habitat all of these things. So I think that is a really big issue from the agency level to the state level, and there are some connectivity. There is some connectivity to federal funding and and and I think a lot of the states are just trying to find ways to be to sort of ride any future inconsistencies and funding streams. So it's a good opportunity there. And there are some creative ways that are being proposed, some kind of controversial, like for the you know, like in the for instance, having like access fees paid for uh, non hunting and angling members of the community to access state lands, for instance, Whereas there are other sort of less controversial ones where uh, we've got these data centers, for instance, popping up all over the country. Could there be a nexus found in terms of conservation and like a small tax leviedon energy use or land area use that that could be generated from these for these data center operators. And there's a there's a couple efforts around the country to do just that. So there are opportunities, but again it's going to take our community being engaged in understanding the challenges the state state agencies are are facing. 00:16:51 Speaker 2: If you guess heard, if either one of you heard, if there's any movement on recovering America's Wildlife Act, if that's something that's going to get reintroduced and I've heard rumors of it, I've heard talk that they want to, but do we have any sense of where that actually stands right now? And for folks that aren't familiar, could could one of you explain what that is and what that could do if it ever passed. 00:17:14 Speaker 4: I'm I want to say that a couple of months ago. 00:17:18 Speaker 6: I kind of a colleague or a partner mentioned that they thought RABA Recovering America's Wild went Back still had you know, a really strong chance and was something that you know, they really wanted to put resources into, and that was something that gave me optimism. 00:17:35 Speaker 4: You know that there is there is very much hope there for that particular legislation. You know, Chris and I both work more on the state level, so we're not you know, we're one step removed from what's happening, you know, in DC, and and you know kind of where where a lot of those conversations are on reintroduction and how people are sort of posturing there. But you know, I'd say we're definitely optimistic. It's a really critical bill that you know, directs a significant amount of funding to state and tribes, state agencies tribes to basically keep endangered species kind of out of the emergency room, and so you've got you know, threatening endangered species and that is a big part of that funding. But there are so many layers there to conservation benefits in rawa that impact fish and game species that we all pursue that are just critical and so you know, making sure that we're allocating those resources and the right way to promote habitat and can serve you know, just kind of like these broader ecosystems. We understands as hunters that that's you know, critical for maintaining those game populations that we rely on. 00:18:50 Speaker 2: Yeah, and if if if the agencies have to sync money into endangered species work, that's those are dollars that are not going towards you know, fishing game maybe that we would hope they're spending more active time restoring for the for the things we're particularly interested in too. So uh, yeah, it seems like if that could ever pass, that would be a massive funding boost for these agencies to do important stuff that helps. You know, whether you like butterflies or big whitetail bucks, it's gonna it's gonna be a good thing. 00:19:20 Speaker 3: Chris. 00:19:20 Speaker 2: To your point, though, one thing I'm curious, like when it comes to state budgets and the funding that you know that Michigan gets or Massachusetts gets, you know, where does where do we come in? What's the opportunity you mentioned there's a little bit of an opportunity there. I honestly don't really know how how. 00:19:38 Speaker 3: Would I do that? 00:19:38 Speaker 2: How might I be able to to to influence that side of things in my home state? 00:19:44 Speaker 5: Sure, so every state has a slightly different budget process, UH, but typically the governor is going to have their sort of version of the budget and that's oftentimes a place where you know, the public can engage. So like for instance, like let me, I'll give you a local situation example, there is an instance where UH state agency might give licenses, free licenses to senior citizens or to people with certain physical handicaps or something along those lines. When they give those free licenses, those are of course coming out of the budget of the state agency. They can't count on those the money that would be generated from those licenses. So there are some efforts in some states to go to the state legislature or to go to the governor and ask hey, can we get compensated for these licenses? It's going to be maybe up to upwards of a million dollars depending on the population, maybe even even more. And so having having sort of pressure from the hunting and fishing community to sort of say, hey, can you governor can you reimburse these licenses or fully fund this land acquisition fund or set aside a budget like is the case in a situation in Ohio right now set aside a certain chunk of money to allow for a very large land acquisition that is on the table right now, so the public can engage in that process and pressure, you know, pressure the governor's office, pressure state lawmakers to to sort of prioritize issues that are important to us. And yeah, it's not as it's not as sexy or it might not be as like motivational in terms of like the charge to take action as like a threatening issue or piece of ledge that might take away certain opportunities, for instance, but it's an important step in the process. 00:22:07 Speaker 2: So one thing that I've always been kind of, i don't know, surprised by or disappointed and has been. And maybe this is just what I see in my lone little world. So maybe this isn't the case everywhere, but it seems like any time I see Michigan any talk in my state or some of the other states have spent time, and when they start talking about raising license costs, people just throw an absolute fit and get so upset and say, how dare you raise my license from ten dollars to fifteen dollars or twenty bucks to twenty three bucks or whatever it might be. And I've always thought, like, gosh, like this is it's a bargain as it is, whether you're paying ten bucks for a hunting license or fifty bucks for a hunting license or one hundred and fifty bucks for a hunting license. What we get to do out there, the protein we get to bring home, the experience we get to have. I mean, I would pay a lot of money for that, and then it goes to such an amazing cause, it goes to perpetuating these things that we care so much about. Again, I would donate a lot of money to make sure that's the case. And I know there's a lot of other people who love these things just as much as we do. Why do people get in such a hissy fit about a ten dollars fee increase or thirty dollars fee increase or whatever it is. Is that Am I just seeing that uniquely or is that like every state everyone kind of has that loud. I don't know if it's a minority or majority or whatever it is. But is that changing? Is that going to have to change to deal with these budget issues? 00:23:31 Speaker 3: Chris? 00:23:33 Speaker 5: Is not that it's not a unique situation. We hear and feel and experience that everywhere, and I think in part it is something that a lot of state agencies have sort of showed that reality, unfortunately, and they did that because of the separation between the state agency, or at least more importantly, the people who work there and the constituents. We've talked about that you and I have talked about this before. You know you're working for Wildlife Tour created this opportunity where a bunch of people got to meet a large number of state employees who came out on their day off, some of them were on the clock and work side by side, And just the humanization that occurred in that moment was huge because just built relationships and when you recognize that these people are dedicated, the vast majority of the people are dedicated civil servants who aren't just serving the people of the state or the commonwealth. But they're also serving the wildlife like professionally and in many cases at a pretty significant sacrifice. And when I think it's important and as I've come to do this job and just work in so many different states and meet so many different people, is so the vast majority we have some great uh state employees. And I think if people listened and understood and had that better connection with their state agencies and what they're trying to accomplish and the challenges that they face managing budgets, managing the politics at the state house, I think they'd have a they'd be a bit more understanding to the need of of you know, of increases in small increases or incremental increases and license fees, because to your point, like we do have a we do get some pretty great, like life altering experiences out of these opportunities. 00:25:49 Speaker 2: I'd love to take a look at what the average American spends a year on coffee or something like that, like would you be willing and maybe not coffee because people need their coffee, but food or whatever. The amount of money we spent on something trivial, it really doesn't matter all that much. I'm sure, it outweighs what we spent on hunting licenses by leaps and bounds, so we could we can spend that money. If we can spend that money on a Starbucks, we can certainly spend that money on a deer hunting license or whatever it is that the helps, you know, the thing we love more than anything else continue. I don't know, Devin, do you feel I'm sure you're feeling some of that out West too. 00:26:28 Speaker 4: Yeah, But I will say, you know, in New Mexico, we had SP five last year moved through the state legislature, and that was a big bill that had a few different angles to it, but one of them was a significant increase in fees kind of across the board. It had been over twenty years and the agency was really like desperate at this point, you know, it had kind of reached critical point where they had to do something. So this fee increase was I would say it's pretty well received generally. I mean, I think you're always going to have that contingent that is going to resist any type of fee increase. But I think hunters recognize, like, Okay, it's it's been the same for a very long time. There's no you know, staggering increase with inflation. Everything else is going up, but my hunting fees have been the same. And so that bill was actually coupled with a commission reform bill, and that's just like a whole another cant worms quagmire. I think that, you know, we will probably see more of next year general efforts to reform game commissions. But you know, I was, I was enthusiastic and optimistic at the response in New Mexico regarding fees, and I think we've seen I've seen in a couple instances there, you know, maybe a slightly more willingness to just understanding that, like, you know, this has got to happen one way or another, and hunters just kind of with pride shouldering that burden. But it's certainly not everyone marching in that same direction. So I think there's a lot of education that that comes in there as well. 00:28:04 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:28:05 Speaker 2: Okay, So so keeping the ball in your court, Devin, what might be the first issue or challenge or opportunity that you'd like to bring up? 00:28:14 Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to kind of devetail off of what Chris said, and you know, I think the big one that we're always looking at that I think when you look at really what impacts hunting and fishing at a grand scale, it's always you know, the encroaching development, industrialization, sprawl, like these are these big broad themes, but you know, when we're talking about how that impacts us, I think just looking at you know, maybe a subset of that conservation funding is related to connectivity and how that plays out. You know, there are there is funding at the federal level, but you know, it kind of remains to be seen what happens next year if we're going to have you know, the Wildlife Crossings Pilot Program get you know, reauthorized, or if we're going to get more funding for like fish Passage and you know projects of that nature through like Noah or Fish and Wildlife Service. And so I think there's these federal big buckets of funding that we're going to need to stay engaged and really be advocating kind of across the board, across the nation for getting these projects funded because they're just very easy wins that everyone could should be able to agree on. I mean particular, when we're talking about wildlife crossing projects, there's a great public safety component. You can really relate this to people that are not in the traditional hunting and fishing space, and I think you can build super you know, really large broad tents to accomplish these shared objectives. And you know, I have worked on a wildlife crossing project in southern California, the Eye eight Penins are Bighorn sheet crossing project, and I will tell you there it is just a tremendous amount of legwork to stand these things up, and it starts at the state level. And so when we're talking about that funding, we need to be making sure that we're advocating for those budgets for these state agencies to be able to do the on the groundwork, the callers, the data collection, because that is what informs these projects and that those are like the major impediments to getting these broader connectivity efforts funded. So just building on Chris's point there, you know, when we're making those cases, and I think the way we can make those cases is just by building that relationship with your you know, representative in your district, right because then they're going to take that when it comes time to vote on the governor's budget, they're going to hopefully be you know, sharing what they're hearing from constituents, and so you know, how you engage is at that ground level, making sure that you do you have a relationship with your representative at the state level and of course the federal level as well, but making those you know, priorities clear from the beginning and then emphasizing them throughout the process. Stopping on the phone, Hey just want you to know, and I really care about hunting, fishing, land access, connectivity, really want you to prioritize this when it comes time to appropriate funds at the at the legislature. And so I think, you know, if we can bolster some of that funding at the state level and keep some of these connectivity and wild life crossing projects and fish project fish fish passage projects coming, I think we're gonna be able to weather the storm whether or not at the federal level. You know, if funding ends up getting it cut, hopefully we can make it back up at the state level, or you know, we can double down and really just communicate the importance of that at the federal level as well. 00:31:55 Speaker 2: So I sense that the whole idea of why life crossing projects and things like that maybe gets talked about a little bit more out west, But I wonder if the folks on the east part of the eastern side of the country maybe just aren't quite as familiar. 00:32:09 Speaker 3: With what why this is needed or what this looks like. 00:32:13 Speaker 2: Can you expand a little bit on that, Devin just explaining, you know, what are these projects actually tackling, What are they actually doing on the ground, Why is this actually important? I think when people understand it, it's like, oh, yeah, this makes a ton of sense. But I'm not sure all that many people truly understand what's happening. 00:32:32 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, so I think to break it down for a lot of particularly for big game species you know out west, is there's just a lot of seasonal migrations and movement required to access that habitat. I mean a lot of it's related to water, but it's also you know, winter range and making sure that you have that forage available across kind of like broader slots of land. And that's going through public private and you've got you know, may youre eight lane interstates that have been put up in between you know, where traditional migration routes were, and so, you know, part of it is just trying to address you know, declining deers and the number of big game, animals that are just hit that are hitting cars you know, every year is astounding and so you know, that seems like a very easy win for one for motorists because you have fatalities all the time. You've got a huge cost to society just to deal with collisions relating to wildlife and a risk to to just the general people on the on the roads. But also when we're looking at making sure that wildlife can adapt to changing pressures, so whether that's development, whether that's you know, related to changing conditions on the ground with forage, with invasive species, availability of water. Having connective between these various landscapes public land, private land is really critical for those species to be able to adapt. And I think to distribute pressure, even from a hunting perspective, you know, to make sure that animals are not just going to pull up on private land in some of these areas where you have higher pressure. And so you know, the one example I'll give you in sort of the microcosm there for the big one sheep crossing project that we're working on, is you've got sheep that come in and they actually have their lambs in between two lanes of freeway and they come back and forth all the time because we've built from major major thoroughfare through this you know, long standing route, movement route where the sheep moved to kind of access water and forage at different times of the year, and so you just have a bunch of sheep that are getting hit. 00:34:52 Speaker 5: All the time. 00:34:53 Speaker 4: Use lambs rams and this is something that we have the color data. So since all that infrastructure was done, now you know, we've been able to secure planning at the state level for the planning and design, which there's a huge amount that goes into permitting and designing these structures and that's where a lot of the costs comes from. And then hopefully you know, you move into implementation soon. But you use directional fencing to funnel wildlife over a crossing structure so that they're you know, moving and crossing over free. We had a safe point and you know, we're not having those collisions anymore. 00:35:29 Speaker 5: That I was just gonna say that work is taking place in the East as well. How it looks is a lot different. We might not have the big dramatic overpasses or wildlife overpasses. It can be achieved through directional fences culverts. It's amazing what a white tail will tolerate in terms of going through a tiny little place and other critters for short. So we've we've done a lot of work in the Mid Atlantic the North East related to wildlife crossings, habitat connectivity, and we we've been trying to take a holistic, kind of a holistic approach. I mean, obviously big game animals are are are something that naturally is interesting to to our our membership, but but also you know, uh, fish passages, uh, amphibians and and uh you know, other other types of of of wildlife. So there is an appetite for here in the East, and we're trying to find those and support not just legislation that makes sense, but we've also been trying to support research and research funding for that type of to try to figure out where the best places are. 00:36:51 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's fascinating stuff. And you know, as you alluded to, Devin, increasingly important given the sprawl, given the development never wear, habitat is is getting increasingly fragmented, broken up into smaller and smaller pieces. Movements are blocked. This stuff's it's so important and fascinating. If anyone is interested in learning more there's a great book called Crossings by Ben Goldfarb. Highly recommend it, all about this stuff. Another really neat thing. And you guys can tell me if if I'm wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure that my sense is accurate, which is that you know, funding and work and effort behind these wildlife crossing projects, whether it's research or actual you know, building these structures. It's got pretty bipartisan support. This is something that's not just supported by you know, traditional grainy environmental groups. This is something that Republicans are getting behind, and you know, rural landowners are getting behind, and you know, farming families, different folks like that. This is a win for a lot of different people. Like you said, there's the whole thing with just cars, and say, right, this is just an issue that impacts everyday people too. 00:38:04 Speaker 3: So there's a pretty big. 00:38:05 Speaker 2: Tent that can get behind this when so many things seem fractured by partisanship, whether it be on the state level or federal level. In a in a kind of world right now where it seems like a lot of this stuff's getting smoked on funding, this might be one of those unique places where we can get support from both sides of the aisle from all sorts of different types of folks, right. 00:38:27 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I absolutely agree, And I think one piece that I like to point to is Secretarial Order three three six two, which came out during the first Trump administration, which you know prioritizes big game migration corridors and winter range and that has helped, I think, particularly with the partnership at the state level and state Wildlife Action Plans and those two kind of prioritizing the importance of understanding where we need to make these investments. So three three six two has helped to channel like huge amount of funding and work into you know, on the ground projects, whether it's fence removals or bitter brush plantings, and like that's the other piece of that connectivity puzzle that I always, you know, want to make sure that we don't forget and that we advocate for and that is a huge part of BHA's work is making sure that there is that funding to do the work on the ground. That is critical to making sure, you know, we can have a lot of that crossing structure and we can have public land, but if it's all cheat gas and all the valuable forge and everything is burned out and been replaced, then you know it's really not serving that function. And so so three three sixty is helped to funnel a huge amount of funding into that type of work that you know, BHA and our partner organizations have you done, and a huge amount of volunteers been able to participate in as well. 00:39:48 Speaker 2: I might be getting a little bit ahead of ourselves, or at least in my initial thought of how this might all go. But both of you have talked about the importance of advocating at the state level for some of this funding and some of these projects, and we spend a pretty decent amount of time, We have spent a decent amount of time over past years and podcasts talking about advocating at a federal level. Me and Cale just had a great conversation earlier this year all about that, how to become a more effective citizen advocate, you know, developing relationships with your senators or your representative, or doing these different things on the federal level. But is there anything unique to operating at the state level. I'll be honest, I've not done a good job of being in touch with my state representative. 00:40:35 Speaker 3: I'm in touch with my federal but like on. 00:40:38 Speaker 2: The state side, or you know, having a relationship with your game commission or anything like that. 00:40:45 Speaker 3: What are some of the unique things we should be thinking about when trying to operate there? 00:40:51 Speaker 2: And I know you spoke a little bit to this, Chris, but I'd love it a little bit more more tactically if either one of you could expand on the unique pressure points or leverage opportunities, or the unique sides of developing influence within the state structure, whether it be on the fishing game side or state funding, et cetera. You know, Chris, do you want to tackle that first? 00:41:13 Speaker 4: Sure? 00:41:14 Speaker 5: I mean I was. The first step is to understand whether what type of cycle your state operates on how the state legislature works. Is it a short term, you know, a few months session that most of the business gets stuff taking care of that short window of time. Is it a two year cycle like some states have. Once you sort of can identify that, then you know the timetable your your state electeds are going to be working on, and from there you can kind of find out when the best time you might or how how you might want to approach that that lawmaker to find, you know, to open up the lines of communication. So I think that's an important step just to sort of get a sense of all right, like I've got a short window of time, I need to get their attention, and that might change your tactics. If you've got a little bit longer period of time to work with, then you can do a little bit more kind of relationship building and take a more tactful approach to maybe thank that person for some work they did on an issue that you know that was important to you in another session, and use that as an opportunity to start a dialogue on you know, what's important to you in this next or in the current session. I think those types of things building that relationship is so critical. And the states in which we are most effective as a Grasters organization is one where we have a steady presence not just around like the key issues or like the real sort of important issues, but all a lot of different issues, just so we can establish a relationship or rapport with with state officials, lawmakers. I think that that is really really important. We have a couple I'm thinking of a few people, a few members that that make an annual appointment. They just sometimes that takes place at a local coffee shop because they're members of the community. Sometimes it's a trip down to the state House, and sometimes it's just a conversation with an aid or an assistant, but it's something they do on an annual basis and that pays dividends UH for US as an organization, for them as a constituent, and at the same time, you know, it's it's good for the for the elected official as well because they get a get a sense of what's happening out there that you know, they wouldn't otherwise get because the reality is they are dealing with probably a lot of different issues, a lot of different constituents, a lot of different bills, and you know, a state like Michigan, a state like Massachusetts, a state like California, there are a lot of bills and there's a lot of passion behind those behind those bills. So we're going to keep that in mind and recognize that we're fighting for time and we have to be respectful of that and you know, be constructive when we we have that as those opportunities. 00:44:27 Speaker 3: Yeah, would you add anything, Devion, I think I. 00:44:31 Speaker 4: Think that was really well put. The only thing I'd add is just these legislators are far more accessible than you would imagine, and they're not. They don't often hear from their constituents, and so just don't you know, undervalue your voice there. And I think reaching out and developing that relationship you can have a conversation that can help to influence their perspective. And hearing from three, four or five constituents on an issue, in many cases and in many states, is significant. So, you know, I think, particularly at the state level, like your voice can really carry Yeah, maybe even a little bit farther. 00:45:09 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great point. 00:45:12 Speaker 5: I mean we've probably all been in hearings. I mean I've been in public hearings, whether they be a you know, a state, a state commission on a particular series they're handling a series of bills, or like a regulatory hearing, a you know, fish and Wildlife board or something. I've been in the room where I've seen a single voice completely shift the outcome of you know, of a of a decision, and I always, like, I always try to impress that that reality to people, like your voice can and will make a difference so often. 00:45:49 Speaker 2: Well, I think an important thing to remember is that in the case of most of these people, making these decisions, placing these votes. They don't have a firsthand understanding of that any of this. They're simply taking some you know, talking points from somebody else, who got them from somebody else, who got them from somebody else and said, hey, just just say this or just make this vote because it fits this narrative or it's it's the thing. They don't have any kind of real firsthand perspective and or thoughts for a different point of view. So if you can be that, if you can simply be a real resource, you can really help these people, especially if you start, you know, weeks or months or years ahead of a key inflection point, and then when there is a major issue and they are faced with an important decision, they now know, oh, you know Chris from down the road, or Chris that stops in once a year to talk about hunting and fishing issues, he's actually someone who probably has a perspective that could help me at make this decision and be a little bit more informed. 00:46:49 Speaker 3: That's a huge thing. 00:46:51 Speaker 2: That's that's a huge thing. So I think we need to remember that. To your point, Devin, we can make a difference. There's they're accessible and probably in many cases open to other ideas. So continuing down the line, Chris, what's your next big one? 00:47:11 Speaker 5: Another big one I think would be public land management, just again kind of keeping it to the state level, so state forest wildlife management areas. We've seen a lot of new voices coming into the conversation when it comes to the management of these lands. There's in a lot of Eastern states, for instance, that there's been a push to establish these things that are oftentimes referred to as old growth reserves, essentially creating stands of wildlife management areas or state forests that do not get touched in terms of habitat management or wildlife management for wildlife management purposes. 00:48:00 Speaker 4: UH. 00:48:00 Speaker 5: And in many cases they go so far as to trying to uh take management control, soul management control away from the state agency and create new commissions and boards to manage these areas. And if this was to come to pass, those types of initiatives, especially as they relate to lands that are that are were intentionally purchase purchased for the purpose of hunting, fishing, and wildlife habitat, is definitely concerning to us. And they have evolved their messaging for these things to to include things like biodiversity and climate change and carbon sequestration and uh and so to it just to we were just talking about. You know, these are things that might be on the radar for some of these state officials. They might not have full grasp of all the concepts and how it all sort of plays out and what the management charge of these lands are. So it requires a very deliberate approach when it comes to sort of educating lawmakers around these subjects. And we have to be very clear and make the distinction of why these lands and the work that the state agencies are doing in order totain certain types of habitat, whether it be early successional or sure types of forest. 00:49:34 Speaker 3: Whatever it might be. 00:49:35 Speaker 5: So it really creates these really challenging situations because even in some of these situations they've called for the exclusion of hunters and anglers not just from the conversation and the management, but from potentially from the actual areas themselves. So and that's just one example of like a land management type of scenario. You know, there's all also issues with the management as it relates to other forms of recreation and whether that might be trail building or you know, things along those lines and These all have impacts on wildlife, they all have impacts on opportunity, They could have impact on access. So land management issues at the state level is something that we definitely are watching. And the challenges and the situations really change from state to state, so you know, again it's one of those hyper local type of issues sometimes. 00:50:48 Speaker 2: Okay, so there's there's state level public land type management processes, and then there's the federal kind of corollary, which would be like resource manage plans or national forest management plans, whatever it might be. How should citizens engage on those what's the you know, I would imagine it's an agency by agency program, But can you talk to us a little bit about what how we might be able to figure out the right times to engage on those things? How to engage on those things? You know, Like you said, Chris, a lot of stuff's complicated. It's really easy to say don't sell public lands. That's a very simple, easy to understand narrative. Easy to call someone and say, don't sell my public lands. It's much harder to have a clear, nuanced understanding of something like, hey, how do we manage these things best? Like even the example you brought up is complicated and complex, right, It's like, well, yeah, we we need to have actively managed forests in some places, but maybe there are some places that should be in a more mature state, and maybe there are some places there should be logging, and maybe there are some places that shouldn't have logging, and maybe they're there are some places that should be protected in X way, and there's other places that should be in why way. Right, this is like there's a lot of gray areas when it comes to management and priorities and all of that. 00:52:14 Speaker 3: So how do you go about influencing any of that. 00:52:19 Speaker 5: Well, there's public hearings around the management of properties or the establishment of a management plan that's going to be used to manage the next say decade or whatever, like it might not be you know, it's not it's not like an issue like selling off of public plans like you mentioned. It's an issue that is going to have that he's going to have a long term impact, but it might not draw the same attention. And so it's just a matter of really kind of plugging in to the state agencies, plugging in to organization like PHA who's watching and engaged in these things, or other NGO and and so that when there is a call to action, when there is a public hearing, when there is a need to sort of reach out and make a connection to in a two a decision maker, that those voices can can come out. This is you know, it's it's the thing we always kind of come back to, is that there's sort of there is a responsibility as for us as hunters and anglers to sort of stay abreast of all this information, to learn, to continue to learn. I think it also helps us when when we're in the field and doing what we love most. But it also makes us just a more rounded, a more rounded conservationist. And so it's it's just a matter of sort of stay in touch with these things, raising your voice when when needed. You know, this is not something that typically happens on an annual basis in terms of management plans. However, there are there is legislation sometimes that can uh usert the management plans, like the like the forest reserve type of scenario that I just laid out. So it's you know, it is a lot to sort of stay at stay on top of, and uh, you know that's why I think, you know, it's sort of self serving a little bit to sort of mention it, but to plug into two other con plug into a conservation organizations, just so you know someone else is also keeping an eye on this kind of stuff. 00:54:36 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I got to believe, you know, for some people this is going to be a case by case basis. But there's some people especially I think national forests or big state forest is easier to to think about when you, you know, might live somewhere where, Hey, like, my entirety of my outdoor access and my public access is dependent on the Hiawatha National Forest or the yeah, the whatever Traverse City state for a store, the national you know, gallut And National Forest in Montana, whatever it is. Like, if if there's a place that's near and dear to your heart into your activities, it probably doesn't make sense to to start to understand when do these resource management plans or forest management plans start, you know, get when do they start being debated, discussed, work done? Who do I who do you need to know to be you know, heard on those things? You know, what's what's the line? If you're not at the table, you're on the menu. I think this is that's true for everything we're talking about but it's definitely true when it comes to these management plans, right. 00:55:36 Speaker 5: Yeah, And I'll say too, there's a bit of responsibility that that does fall on the state agencies or the the land management organization, whether it's like this your state force entity or you know, conservation department. However it works for your particular state, Well, they're mandated to sort of say that they're gonna like their management plan is up for for for conversation, for public comment. They also have to be better about explaining the why the why they're doing things. And because so oftentimes, let's take for an instance, where there might be a WMA that at one point in time in the history of this say forest, it might have been like a pine barrens type of habitat, and so the state might go and take effort, maybe do a controlled burn and do some different habitat work to restore that pine barrens. But if they don't articulate sort of the why, the process, what they're doing, other members of the community when they visit these locations that are important to many people, not just hunters and anglers, they might not be ready for what isn't what they see the trucks, the saws, the fire, the smoke, all that sort of stuff, because sometimes these projects take a long time, and if they don't articulate what they're trying to achieve and the steps that are require to get to that objective, then you know, we're left kind of having to sort of, you know, have a little bit tougher uphill battle, if you will. So I think it's important to sort of, you know, ask our state agencies to sort of explain better and to do a little bit more outward work publicly as to what they're trying to achieve and how they plan on too. 00:57:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, with with public land being such a massive part of the landscape out west, Devin, I got to imagine this whole management side of things is a big part of your world. Would you would you have anything to add? 00:57:38 Speaker 4: Yeah, to build on those great points Chris made, you know, I think, and trying to look ahead a little bit about you know, into the crystal ball and what we're potentially going to be seeing. You know, I think there are some big common opportunities, you know, besides trying to track and understand what's happening, you know, with the resource management planning process in your particular area, you know, there's some big national initiatives that that we're grappling with, one of those being, you know, the repeal of the roadless Rule. Another one just kind of broader again in that same sort of vein, is looking at you know, travel management and how we might see some big changes and movement there on on how we manage you know, motorized use in national forests and and these are you know, pretty unwieldy when you try to think about it the grand scale for the nation and for an individual kind of as you ask Mark like, so, how do you weigh in here? What's your voice? What's your role? You know, what we have been doing is is soliciting stories from our membership and our constituents in these particular areas. So we've overlaid some GIS resources, you know, where what's a roadless area and trying to break down some of that just to you know, so when you're doing you're scouting, or when you're you know, looking at where you typically hunt, you can say, I have a personal story here, and I think that is is the lane that we're really encouraging folks to try and lean into. Is the power of like your own story, your own pictures, your own videos, run these inventory roadless areas, your stories being out there walking, you know, five miles into the back country whatever it is, and having some dude on his z bike zip by in a you know, non motorized area and e bikes is a whole separate one. You know, we can give you a thousand things to look at, but I'll try not to go down too many rabbit holes. I just think that, you know, it's going to be really important for for folks to one be be tracking those timelines, so like paying attention to your conservation organizations that are that are tracking these things. Roadless we're probably going to see a comment opportunity sometime around March or in the springtime, and travel management might be a little bit later in the year, maybe around August. But you know, weighing in with with your personal connection to the land, the big bull that you killed, or you know, whatever it is that you like to do out on those public lands, those are the narratives that I think will have the most weight. And being in this constituency of hunters and anglers, we are uniquely positioned right now to be able to influence policy by just telling it how it is and saying this is this is where I go hunt and fish. This is the value that I see in these lands. This is why I want to be providing this context for legislators so that they understand when they're making these big decisions, that they can connect it to the ground, to the uses. And so I think that's the strategy there, right, That's how you can kind of make your voice carry a little bit further and influence some of these bigger, burlier, unwieldy land management type decisions. 01:00:51 Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned the Travel Management Plan situation. I think a lot of folks now understand what the roadless Rule is is and what's going on with that. I don't think as many people know about the Travel Management Plan possible update or roll back, whatever that's going to be. Can you can you give folks a quick rundown of what that might mean, what that could lead to, why that's worth paying attention to. 01:01:16 Speaker 4: Yeah, so this one is kind of developing. We've seen some comments from the administration that they're going to be looking to basically modify or roll back the two thousand and five Travel Management Rule. And so what this basically is, to break it down, is, you know, you have various areas in your forests, in public lands that are designated as you know, motorized non motorized. You've got specific regulations on trails and and what uses are allowed and what aren't. You know, I think that this has helped to balance some of those multiple uses, right BJA. And you know, most many concerts organizations we work with have a nuanced perspective there. Right, there's a you know, a time and place for motorized access and and that's fantastic, and we use that time and place for for ohvs and and those are are fun to get on. But there's also the importance and the significance of those backcountry areas that do require a little bit more respect and work to get to and to appreciate. And so what we're we're seeing as indication that, like we're there's going to be some shifts there and uh you know, potentially some expansion of motorized access into some of these previously non motorized areas. And the reason why that's significant is one, I mean, back country wouldn't be back country, but we just drive in there and park. Uh So just core to the ethos of what BHA is is about finding that solace and getting out there and and really like putting the work in. But the other impact there is, you know, when we increase pressure and access us and make it easier to access some of these more remote areas, we're likely to see increased negative impacts on our game species and that and you know, just punching roads into the back country there are, and increasing motorized access in the back country. There are all sorts of you know, trickle down impacts there for uh that have been well documented for you know, migration for the health of different herds of al kadeer, and then also sedimentation into streams for you know, fisheries and risk of fires as people are driving. You know, fires are more likely to start in your road. So there's all these different angles there. And again I think the well, we'll see what comes of this, but I think the opportunity is there to work with a broad variety of stakeholders. There's a number of you know, kind of motorized recreation groups that have come out opposed to that because there is a good balance right now and they they're all our gains and conversations that have been made that are you know, getting people together in a room and understanding, Okay, well, where does motorized recreation make sense and where we want to limit that? And I think we don't want to throw all that hard work and all those conversations out, and certainly there's probably an opportunity to improve that. Well, you know, stick our heads in the sand there, but I want to make sure that that that we're not throwing it all away and then we're working to improve and have those you know, broad stakeholders driven conversations to make that happen. 01:04:29 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So I feel like we have time for one last big picture issue or opportunity, and I think that that opportunity goes to you, Devin, You've got one more if you have another one you want to talk about. Do we have any final issue or opportunity you want to want to wrap this up with. 01:04:49 Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, we got We could go on for days, so we'll keep it to your time time limit here, you know, I think the one that I'll try to to a bit of a broad brush here and then we can zero in a bit. But just looking at access, right, we can't hunt fish if we can't get there and we don't have access, and so I'll give you kind of like the land and the water components of that that I think we're likely to see a lot of movement uh next year in legislatures, particularly at the state level, and that is looking at navigable waters access, stream access, and also corner crossing. So you know, I think corner crossing being more of a Western issue. You know, I'll just kind of mentioned briefly that we're we're already hearing about potential you know, bills, draft legislation and various states that are following on the heels of the Tenth Circuit decision and the decision by the Supreme Court to you know, basically affirm that Tenth Circuit decision. And so now we have great clarity in those six states covered by the Tenth Circuit, but really a huge part portion of the rest of the West and the Ninth is you know, kind of remains to be determined. There's a bit of a legal gray area there, and so I think we've seen movement in Montana coming out from the fish and Wildlife and parks saying it's illegal, we're going to prosecute it, which is a bit of a departure from previous statements We've seen some statements from Colorado inside the tenth talking about you know how it's great, it's legal, but you can't do it on state lands. Wyoming has a bill looking at criminal trespass oregons looking out a bill, and so just flagging that one that it would be a great issue to stay on top of. It's gonna be something that BHA is heavily engaged in, and we're going to continue to work with landowners, with you know, this broad community to ensure that we have access to our public lands and respect for private property. I think this is a common sense one that we really can all agree on and provide some clarity there. And then the water side, you're gonna mention, yeah, and then on the water side, you know, just over the last couple of years, there's been a lot of movement on navigable waters, you know, in stream access. So New Mexico had some some big gains on stream access. California past navigable waters flooded Waters bill that was really like important and and pro hunting. Oregon just passed a great bill to help streamline the process for determining navigal waters. Uh, and I think that we're likely to see some big movement in Colorado and Utah this year as well, where stream access and navigable waters access is not as uh as open and it's it's actually really restrictive in Colorado where there are a number of rivers that you can't float even so not even talking about touching the streambed, you can't even float through uh these private property areas where you know, these are clear big rivers that have been used for a long time by people to hunt and fish, and they're critical for our access, you know, I think in a number of different states, and so I expect us to to be engaging heavily on this as we have in the past. But to see a number of bills and you know, the the right to float through these, you know, major thoroughfares and to be able to fish and hunt them is really critical to the whole public trust doctrine to you know what, I would believe, you know, just similar to public lands, that these are essential to kind of our heritage and and what it means to be an American is to have access to these lands and waters. And so every state's a little different. We'll see what happens in Colorado and Utah. And I know, Chris, I think there may be you know, movement as well in the East on this one. So it's one of those issues that that does kind of span span the nation as well. 01:08:53 Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot to digest there and to to this is what's one of those deals where maybe all of this I do feel like the homogenization or the nationalization of everything these days leads to us sometimes thinking about conservation at this very federal, national level, right, I mean, like the politics of Michigan versus Florida sometimes don't feel that different when all you're hearing about is what's on you know, Fox News or CNN, and all they're talking about is the national stuff. And you know, we're all like virtual neighbors now, so it's easy sometimes to forget about how important some of the state level stuff is that is far reaching and that does have major implications like this water access, like you know, corner crossings that are all you know, while it might be a federal debate on many of these things were be handled in the Supreme Court or federal course farther farther down, Uh, the state is where a lot of this stuff ends up being decided in practice, and and that's where we actually can have more impact, maybe because it's it's slightly less noisy. 01:10:02 Speaker 3: There so really really good reminders on that front for us. I appreciate that. 01:10:09 Speaker 2: Wrapping things up, I guess a little bit of a rapid fire, quick set of questions that I would be curious to just get the first things that come off the top of your mind. This could be something that we've already talked about. These might be things that are that are new that have been to be brought up yet. But I'd like to with each of you ask you three fast questions, and then we're going to tie this all up and get you guys out and back to your very important jobs. I'll start with you, Devin, since you've got some momentum if you've been talking here a second. First thing, what today gives you the most cause for concern about the future of hunting, fishing, wildlife and wild places. What's the first thing that that's causing you concern that that worries you the most. If there's anything that we're going to be keeping you up at night, and this could be state level, federal anything, what's that one thing? 01:11:06 Speaker 4: It's the hollowing out of our federal agencies, the lack of funding for those federal agencies, and the real kind of resurgence of the sagebrush rebellion type notion that we should be transferring our federal lands to the states, centralizing you know, fire management, and taking the role of the federal government that we currently have to manage our public lands to keep them the public hands according to the multiple use mandate and that balance. I think that's the one that's giving me up, and that we're basically siloing these things out and hauling them out and bringing in more kind of private industry and some of these shared stewardship agreements to really you know, kind of just reduce the role that the federal government and also the public has and being able to comment and manage those lands. 01:12:03 Speaker 2: We should probably take another thirty minutes to unbox that some more. But but but but yes, lots a lot there. A quick pivot. What's one thing that gives you hope? What's the one thing that encourages you despite all of that. 01:12:22 Speaker 4: I think that gives me hope is this, you know, seeing the amount of people and the bipartisan nature of this issued, the amount of people that came out over the summer opposing the sale of lands and the kind of the public lands being front and center for a number of different communities and constituencies that maybe didn't previously weigh in there. And I think it's it's one of the really it should be and has been one of the few bipartisan issues that we can really lean into. And so I think I continue to hope that public lands and hunting access and angling assets, all those you know, things that fit into the umbrella public lands continue to be something that is not a part of an issue that we can build big tents and move forward and keep those public plans and publicans all right. 01:13:17 Speaker 2: And the one single action that you would ask of our listeners over the next twelve months, what's the single most important thing they can do as hunters and anglers and advocates for these things. 01:13:34 Speaker 4: The single most important thing would be to develop a relationship with your state and federal members of Congress and members of the state legislature and tell your stories from those lands that you have, like, provide your personal, authentic, honest accounts of why these places are important to you, and utilize the tools that BHAs provided and partner organizations have for you know, framing and particular issues and the wants and details and data. But to be honest, just tell your story and that is going to go a lot further than parroting any talking points. 01:14:07 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, Chris, you're up to bat. Single greatest point of concern. 01:14:14 Speaker 5: I'm gonna this one's gonna come from from the East, and that's relevancy. Our relevancy is hunters and anglers is something that concerns me. Across most of the country, resident license sales are declining, and that decline is most dramatic in the East and some of the more populated states. And we need to be able to articulate and what our value is to society and why what we do is important not to us, but to society as a whole. I think that is I think there aren't as many people who are able to share those experiences in a in a in a manner that is gonna to help the greater hunting and fishing communities. I think we all have to be better at at doing doing that. 01:15:15 Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, greatest cause for hope. 01:15:21 Speaker 5: Connection. You know, when when you know DEVI and I have the opportunity to to travel around a little bit to meet our members of the hunting and fishing community, especially within like the b h A community, and to see the the passion and this like the just the broad sets of experiences and and and and the and the passionates out there Like that gives me hope that like all of the challenges that we are facing, can can can be met and and surpassed. Like I mean, you've been to Rendezvous, You've been to some of the other events, like those things I think are so critical. We have to we have to connect face to face more often. 01:16:08 Speaker 3: Yeah, and what's your call to action? 01:16:11 Speaker 5: I'm gonna I gotta say exactly what what what Devin said? Make a connection to your elected officials and also just I said it earlier. Uh, let that also include your your state Fish and Wildlife Board or your state agency. You know, develop relationship more than just sending in your sixty five dollars or whatever it is your for your annual license. Uh, make that connection, show up at an event, you know, support the agency or just learn learn from the agency. And I think that's gonna help out everybody. 01:16:51 Speaker 3: Yeah, so true. Well, Christian's you're the last one on the line here. You're stuck giving the plug too. 01:16:58 Speaker 2: Can you tell folks where they can connect with backcountry hunters and anglers, how they can do so anything else on that front. 01:17:06 Speaker 5: Sure, So of course we're on all the social platforms. Our website backcountry hunters dot org. You can find all the stuff that we work on. At the state level. We have a monthly sort of column on the website. It also is sort of streamlined for a social media post called the Policy Spotder State Policy Spoder, where we kind of focus just highlight a handful of state issues that we're working on on a monthly basis, like look for those types of things. Become a member, support the work that we're doing, Attend at event, habitat Stewardship Project, Pine Night, whatever it is. You know, take that opportunity to to sort of have a face to face conversation with someone and you know, you're welcome to be part of this community and to work for public lands, waters and wildlife. 01:18:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good time too. We've all experienced that, and so was this. So thank you Devin, thank you, Chris, really appreciate you guys time. 01:18:17 Speaker 3: Thanks for sharing all us, Thank you, thank you. All right, and that's going to do it. For us today. Thanks for being here. 01:18:25 Speaker 2: I appreciate your time, I appreciate you being a part of this community, and I am wishing you an incredible twenty twenty six. Lots of fun times have had and plenty more hours on the podcast. Here the two of us talking about these wild things we enjoy so much. So until next time, thanks for being here, and stay wired to Hunt.