00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, home of the modern white tail hunter, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and today on the show, I'm joined by Greg Godfrey to discuss all the different things we've been doing, whether it be gear or hunting strategy, to improve, perfect and fine tune our mobile running gun hunting approach. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Firstly, I've got Greg Godfrey with me here on the show today. He's one of the co founders of Tethered. That's a mobile hunting company, a saddle hunting company. But we're not talking about products. We're not talking about his company. Really, we're not going to do any big product plugs. Don't worry if you're not a set idle guy, If for not a Tethered guy, this episode is still for you. This podcast is all about Greg's experience over the decade plus that he's been diving deep into becoming a more mobile deer hunter. How to become a more effective deer hunter by moving around a lot, by using this kind of running gun approach. Some people call it hanging bang running gun mobile, whatever you want to call it. You can use a set of sticks and a mobile tree stand. You can use sticks and a saddle. A lot of options out there, and today we cover them all. We discuss different ways to fine tune your equipment. We discussed different ways to fine tune your process of getting set up in a tree, climbing a tree quieter more efficiently. Uh. We talk about different things to think about when you're scouting out a property about to hunt it on a running gun hunt. We talk about when to set up and when to keep looking. We talked about when to move and when to stick it out in the tree you're in, and all things in between. If you do any kind of hunting like this, or if you have been hearing me talk about it, or whole nine Fingers Johnson talk about it, or many many of our guests talk about this kind of thing. But you've been kind of that sounds like a lot of work, That sounds like it wouldn't be a lot of fun. I kind of like sitting in my ladder stands in my pre hung stands um But at the same time, you've got this little voice in the back of your head that says, well, maybe I should check it out. Well, this is the episode of listen to to find out if if you really should and if you decide to take that plunge, where to give you the tools and ideas and uh, you know, lessons learned to get that into action and get started. So I think this is one that a lot of people can benefit from. With seasons either starting or very soon to start, you know, it's not too late to try something like this. You can go and get a little mobile tree stand and a set of sticks or saddle and some sticks, and you know, spend a night or two out in the backyard, learn how to use this stuff, and then go hunt. I remember the first time you use the saddle. Now, I've been using sticks and mobile tree stands for many years before that. But the first time I got a saddle, I got it like three days before I was gonna leave for a week long hunt. And in those three days I got out into a tree a couple of times, and that was enough to feel comfortable and was able to have a successful hunt. So you can totally turn this around quickly. That said, I guess I should stop rambling. Let you get into this one. I hope you enjoy it. I hope you find it valuable and stay tuned. There's much more to come on how I'm using this kind of hunting style. Because next week knock on Wood, assuming there's been no weird things going on with technology or our game plan, uh, we'll be telling me about how my most recent public land white tail hunt went in which I was using this kind of hunting approach using my saddle and sticks, as well as a buddy of mine doing the same thing to to run and gun it on public land and try to kill a buck. So hopefully we'll have a success story for you describing exactly how this thing can work and without other way. I guess let's just get into it all right with me on the line. Today, we've got the one and only Greg Godfree. Greg, welcome back to the show. Thanks Mark's been a while since we had a pot podcast chat. I know, I'm glad we get to do it, uh, And I want to. I want to dive into a style of white tail hunting that both you and I really like, uh, and I know you have. I feel like I'm pretty heavy into it, but you're even heavier into it because not only is it seemingly your preferred way of hunting. It's also your career. You've built a company around this style of hunting. Uh. But what I want to try to do is I want you to take off your tethered I run a company that's a mobile hunting company. I want to take off that hat, and I want to put on your just I'm a die hard mobile hunter hat today and see if we can get into your mind and pull out every little stinking, juicy bit of insight when it comes to how to be a more effective running gun hunter or hanging bang hunter or mobile hunter or whatever you wanna call it, whether you use the saddle like you do, or a lightweight mobile tree standing like a lot of people do. Um, I know that the things you're doing could apply to a lot of these styles. So that's the that's the high level idea. Does this sound like it's in your wheelhouse? Okay? All right, So this is how I want to start. Let's imagine that you and I were on a high school debate team. All right. I don't know if this is something. I never actually was on a high school debate team, so I don't really know exactly what I'm imagining. But let's say we're standing up on a stage and there's two podiums. I don't know, would you wear a bow tie? You might wear bow tie. Um, and let's let's say we're up there and your your job is to convince the judges and me, I'm on the opposite side, will say, your job is to convince us of one thing, and that one thing I need you to convince us of is that the running unapproached to hunting white tails is the best way to kill white tails. And we're gonna begin with an opening statement. You get to lay out your general argument. Uh, you're setting up the whole thing right here. What would your opening statement be? Wow, putting me on the spot? Bow tie and all? Okay, I can do this. I have preached this, and I this is not an original idea I've I've seen lots of white tail hunters that I look up to over the past twenty years, thirty years talk about the concept of first sit, best sit, and there's so much truth to that in my hunting. I guess career if you want to call it, or as long as I've been hunting the folks that I've hunted with my friends colleagues. There's something about being in the spot. It's fresh, hasn't been pressured, especially when you're talking about a mature buck. Now, if we're talking any deer, young deer, doze, that's a different story. But if we're talking mature buck, a deer that has lived through several seasons in highly pressured states like Michigan and the southeast right hunt, he has more than likely been shot at and maybe even wounded. Those deer are a different animal. And to get into his home turf the first time without giving him any notice that you're there, that I think, in my opinion, is the biggest advantage any hunter can have. And whether, like you said, that the tree stands that it doesn't matter. We're not even talking about gear. We're just talking about location and being in that spot where you believe he is without disturbing it in a prior event. To me, that is the number one thing. And there's lots of folks that preach that Ebra Harten John and Dan in Fault Rather and you know ore for an anime, lot lots of people I can name, I can name fifty people that believe in that that concept. To me, that's the number one thing. First, Sit, best, sit, And the more often you go into an area, the more you contaminate it, and the more you alert a mature buck that he's being hunted. Well, that sounds all well and good. Greg. Now I'm the opposing viewpoint here that all that sounds great. But going in and hunting a new place all the time like this, that sounds like a lot of editing convenience. That sounds like a pain in the butt. That sounds like a ton of work. Uh. My deer hunting supposed to be fun. This is my time to relax and enjoy myself. Why would I want to go in and set up a stand in sticks or something every single darn time. That sounds miserable. What do you say to that? It is it's not fun all the time, especially when you consider that not out at ten hunts, you're gonna come home empty handed. It's not fun. That's why I made the distinction in the in my opening argument that we're talking about trying to hunt a trophy mature buck. Now, if you're just trying to have fun and you want to see deer and you want to shoot, you know, a dough you know, if you don't if if size of animal or age of animal isn't isn't important to you, uh, which I'm not making a judgment calling whether that should be or not. Just different types of hunters care about different things. I don't think that that guy is probably going to hunt mobile for very long because it is especially early season. It's hot, it's buggy, it's a pain to do it. It's annoying to to uh climb up and down a tree that hasn't been prepped, so you're taking your sticks in and out with you and you're hanging your your tree stand or your saddle on every single hunt. Yeah, it is a pain in the butt. So uh, I don't know that I would recommend that style for someone that just wants to go out see dear. Now, the flip side is, if you do hunt that way, you will see you know. I think I believe more dear. But it's a different system, and I think that it's best suited to hunting a a mature animal. Okay, let me keep the challenges coming. I actually am the kind of hunter Greg who does want to kill mature dear. I'm die hard. I love this stuff and I'm willing to take some of the some of the crap that comes along with it. Okay, but here's the problem I'm all about, you know, really focusing on the details. And I know that deer have a tremendous security system built into their ears, their eyes, and their nose. And when I hear you talking about going in and setting up in a new place every day or so often to get all these first sits, it sounds like that's a lot of noise. It sounds like that's a lot of commotion. It sounds like you're walking around a lot, and that makes me think that you're spooking deer. I don't want to spook dear. I want to have my stuff set up seven months ahead of time, so I don't make a single sound. Uh, what do you tell me about that? I would say, if you have the ability to do that, it's a it's a absolutely phenomenal option. Um. One of my mentors in hunting is John Eberhart, and that's pretty much the way he has killed. I'll butcher his stats, but something like fifty record book bucks in the most heavily pressured state in the country, in Michigan, and that's his entire tactic. He goes in in the spring, he identifies sign. He uses his historical knowledge of the area and where he's encountered bucks in the past, and he preps all of those spots well in advance, and then he doesn't go in there again until it's time to kill. He's very surgical about it. And if you are the if you have access to the type of land where you can do that, maybe your public land you're allowed to leave stuff in the in the trees for you know, an entire season, or you have access to private land where you can set up a tree in advance. I think that's a phenomenal, phenomenal tactic. The where people get caught up is they'll go in and they'll set up one or two spots and then they're just committed to that. That I think is a is a terrible option. Um, if you can at all avoid it, because these deer they get accustomed to it. Everybody knows that when you're uh to you know, hunting the back forty you know, not not necessarily your show mark, but just in general the back forty. Uh, it's a it's a thing, you know. I talked to hunters all the time all around the country, and they say, you know, I used to hunt the back forty at Grandpa's farm and we had an old oak tree with a stand that's been there for twenty years. And you know, we don't ever see any big bucks, but we see a lot of deer. Well that's pretty common, right, because the deer they know it's there and they're used to it. So I think that type of hunter, even if you even if you um or rather if you have access to land where you can do that, I think it's I think it's phenomenal. I I used to be on a lease here in Georgia and I had about ten spots set up, and I would only hunt each of them maybe twice a season. I would just bounce around to the right spot. So if you can absolutely do it, you're quieter, it's faster, you're not gonna get as sweaty. I think it's I think it's fantastic as long as you still keep that idea of of mobile and bouncing around as opposed to I'm gonna sit the same tree every time, and if I sit there long enough, I'm gonna kill a big buck, which they obviously happens, but I don't think the odds are in your favor the more time you hunt us hunt tree. What if I can't do that? So what if I don't have the places too to have twenty five different places pre prepped? Um? But I still want to try to take advantage of some of the things you're saying, So I do have to go in every time you're telling me I can do without scaring every day in the counting I'm telling you can. I think that that is the more typical guy, right. I think most guys are hunting public land or small parcels and of private land. And and I could I could list you know, five or ten hunters that are very successful in doing that. One of one of another one of my um mentors is is Dan in Fall. You've had on the show many times and a lot of people understand his tactics. But that's that's exactly what he's doing. He's not necessarily hunting a new spot every time. A lot of the places he's hunting he has historical data that support that there is an animal there, right, So he's hunting spots that that he's killed bucks in in previous years and that he's had encounters with in previous years. So it's not always It doesn't always have to be a brand new spot, but it might be a spot that you hadn't been in for two years or the it's just you know, maybe you've only hunted in September and now it's mid November, so it's been six eight weeks and there's been no pressure there. So I think it's very doable. And I do that on public land all around the country, bounce around on it. Sometimes I'll hat the same spot twice, but as much as I can, I like to I like to keep it fresh. All right, I'm convinced, correct you. Uh you've changed my mind? Um, all right, No, I did that did? To be honest though, marked the boat ie Hell the boats I was actually the best thing you had going for you. So if if you didn't have that, this might have turned out differently. But that definitely was the edge that gave me the rationale to just give you a break and trust you on this one. So it was a good fashion choice. Yeah, that's that's what I think too. So you you made it through debate debate class here and uh, of course I agree with all the same things that you're talking about. I love this way of hunting. I think it's super effective, but I do think that there are a lot of people who have these hang ups. A lot of people worry about the noise and the challenge and the extra work, or they worry about not having pre set access trails or pre hung sticks or pre cut shooting lanes, and there's there's all these possible hiccups that I think keep people from trying this, or you know, maybe people do try but after trying it a couple of times, like, ah, this is just too much. Um. So what I want to try to do here now is to break down all those barriers. Talk through all these different challenges and how you've kind of pushed through them, how you've perfected your system or your setup or your thought process. Um, because I know you've you've been fine tuning this, You've been dialing this in for a long time. I mean, before Tethered, you were still doing this kind of stuff. Uh. And now, of course you're doing it with a whole bunch of people that are really good at this in addition to yourself, So you're seeing all sorts of new ideas from people both on your team and customers. And you know, the all the hunters that we run in the same circles with that, are, you know, giving us new ideas to try. So that's that's where I want to go next. And I want to get into details first of kind of your setup, because that's like step one, right, is having the right equipment and stuff to get out there and use. Uh. Now, you know, like I said, full disclaimer, you make a lot of this kind of gear. So as best as possible, let's try to talk generically enough that we this could be applicable to anyone whether they're standard saddle guy. But you know, we can dive into each as appropriate. But but first talk to me about this. Let's walk through the the details of the qualities that you need in your mobile set up. So I think everyone listening knows I need some kind of sticks, probably I need a standard sale right, but give me like the nitty gritty, like to perfect a really great mobile system. What are the things that you need to be thinking about when picking each of those things? And then also the second part will be once we have our basics, how have you gone about or how have some of the best people you know gone about modifying to make those things even better? Well? I like this topic. This is kind of right in my wheelhouse. Uh. I don't claim to be the world's greatest hunter. I don't claim to be a big buck killer. Like some of the folks that we've talked about previously, like eber Harder and Fault or Andy May or some of those other guys. They're they're way better at killing big bucks than me. I think my niche is helping hunters think about here, think about tools, think about the way in which those things, the gear and the tools that they use, can support the tactic of being a mobile hunter. So first of all, you really need to think about what it is that you're trying to accomplish, and then you need to tailor your tools to that goal. If you're trying to kill meat for the freezer, I would say you don't need to spend a bunch of money on really super quiet, really high end, really well thought out here. I think you can get away with with you know, much more middle of the road solutions if that's not your goal. If your goal is to kill a big mature bug, I think you need to put the resources, both financial resources and resources of your time by way of practicing, thinking through your gear and really coming up with a system. It is repeatable and perfectible. Right in the in the army as active duty for ten years, and we used to say, you know, you don't train until you get it right. You train until you can't get it wrong. And this is something that is very very important with your mobile hunting set up. You want to have it so dialed where everything is always in the right place. You pack it up and you pack it away the same way every time, so you're not losing your gear. So when you're at the tree, you're not fumbling around for the next item. Which can you know, it can cause you to get a It can cause you it can cause anxiety, you know, oh you know, crap, what did I do with my release? You don't want that in the woods. You want to focus on what you're doing. You want to be You want to focus on being quiet, being stealthy and slipping in and out of the woods without alerting anything you're there, uh, without alerting any deer that you're there. So I would say the first thing that you need to do is to think about what your goals are and then taylor your system around that. Okay, so that's that's Let's let's then assume my goals. So let's say my goal is which which it is is, you know, going on these public land hunts or private stuff that I do hunt, depending on where I'm at. You know, three and a half four and a half year old buck is what I'm going for. So I want to kill what's mature for the area. Uh, and I'm gonna go out for it hard. In that kind of case, I'm willing to spend the extra money and I'm willing to try to perfect my sister. Uh, walk me through. Let's let's talk a cent first, right, walk me through some of the things you're thinking about when selecting the right kind of stick set up. You know, there's there's length, there's weight, there's double there's double step, one step, there's ropes, there's straps, there's steal strips there. You know, there's so many different things to think about. Um, can you just walk me through some of the general types of things that we're thinking about, the reasons why one thing might be better than the other, and any details on that front, so we can kind of nail down away people can think through choosing the right ascent system. Yes, that's a great question. And what's cool about when we're having this discussion, is that in the last five years there has been an absolute boom in high quality products tailored specifically to this this style of hunting, which is awesome. I mean ten years ago you'd have had to fabricate your own stuff. Now you can look at five or six different companies and they all make awesome products. So that's really cool. There's lots of options. Now, what I think about for me, this is gonna vary widely for for different folks. I care about weight bulkan noise, so when I'm talking to climbing system and weight bulkan noise are the very first things that I consider. After that, it's gonna be ease of use and installation. I don't want to have to deal with heavy, bulky items climbing a tree. Um. I think it's it can cause safety concerns if you're lugging up heavy stuff if it's not well designed and simple. As far as like an attachment method, there's lots of different attachment methods out there, Like I mean, you've got daisy chains, you've got rope methods, you've got dinalog systems, you've got buckle and strap systems. There's all kinds of different systems. I prefer simplicity, simple, quiet, noise, right, So I like a rope system. Uh. There's several different versions out there. I like something that I can just loop around and knod it off. To me, that's way more simple than having a buckle with a web like a webbing strap. I think when you have heavy buckles they can introduce noise. They're much more fiddly in the tree. So I like a stick that has a rope style attachment, and there are several good options out there. I also like a stick that has a double step. I will not use any climbing stick that doesn't have a double step. And for me, the reason why that's important to me one for safety. I feel like I'm safer when I have both feet at the same level on the tree. Uh. And two I use aids in my climbing system. UH. For those that don't know, an aider is basically a webbing ladder. For lack of a better terms or or lack of a better description, it's borrowed from the mountain climbing industry. They're called big wall aiders and climbing entry as, but it's basically a mountain climbing product that that hunters have poured it over to to here to make us a little bit lighter. So to me, that's very important because I'm only five ft seven, so if I just carried sticks, I'd have to carry six of them to get up to twenty ft high, and I'm just not willing to do that. So I use aiders in my climbing system. And because of that, I need a dual step. So there's lots of reasons why I like a dual step, mostly safety, and it allows me to get maximum height out of each climbing stick. Beyond that, didn't you know, after you've got a simple, easy to use, lightweight stick, you know, I think there's lots of good options and length. For me, I'm a short guy, so I like a short stick. If you're Mark Kenyon and you're over six ft tall, you could get a long stick and then you get you get more height. You know, it's it's it's really just a personal preference thing at that point in time. But it the other thing for me is I'm only going to carry three. So I have gone through probably every stick on the market, and with with the goal in mind of creating a system that I can get to twenty ft. That's my standard. If I can't get to twenty ft, it's not good enough. So I have to get to twenty ft and I can only do it with three sticks. Now a tall guy like you, Mark, it's a lot easier for you. It's harder for me. So I've had to be really selective about my gear. And what I have settled on is a climbing stick that's about twenty inches tall, that has a double step at the bottom and the top, and then it has a system of eight ors either that you move up with you or that is on each step. That's what works for me. Doesn't work for everyone, but that's what that's what I did for my system to get to that magical twenty ft number with only three sticks. Yea, and and that's You make a good point in pointing out the difference in height, Like if you can do that at your height, uh, you know that certainly seems achievable for folks that might a little bit taller than that too. Um, tell me a little more detail about how you're using your aider or aids. I'm not sure if you use multiple if you've got you know, I know some people have one on every stick. Some people just have one, you know, multi step eider that they'll use on their bottom stick and that's just it. Or people will take it and move it up each stick as they go. What's the most efficient, safe, effective method you've found for doing that? And I think the detail here, I think is pretty important because I think aids get talked about it is like this this term that's floated. But then if you're not, if you haven't actually used one yourself or actually seen it being used, it sounds a little bit ambiguous and I think intimidating sometimes for people. So give me the full scoop on what you're doing with that these days. Okay, that's a good question, and you're right it can get for the for the uninitiated, it can be quite overwhelming. So first of all, I'm gonna say there's two categories of aids. There is a carry as you go aider, and there is a fixed dater. So you're fixed dater is something that is permanently attached to your climbing stick. So maybe it's a it's a wire aider that some companies make, or maybe it's a webbing ladder style aid that I prefer, but regardless of what style it is, it's fixed to your step. It doesn't come on and off. That is a fixed dater. The other the other option which I use is a carry as you go AID, So that would be one AID or that you attached to the stick. You use it to climb, and then as you're standing on the stick you remove the aid and carry it up with you to the next stick. Now, the there's pros and cons to each method, right, Uh. Weight and bulk is something that's very very important to me. So I choose to go with a carry as you go AID because it's less weight and it's less bulk. The downside is it's harder to use. You can imagine a fixed aid if you had three climbing sticks on attached to a tree and each one of them had you know, two or three steps webbing steps hanging down down from him. That's much easier to deal with in the tree. The carriers you go option, you save some weight, you save some bulk, but you pay the price in ease of use. So something to think about there. Now. You also have to be pretty realistic with with yourself. If you're not an athletic guy, if you're maybe overweight, uh, you're you know, you've got a little bit of junk in the trunk, you really need to consider if the aider method is right for you, because I mean, I'm not gonna lie. It does introduce an element of of risk in into the climb. It's it's not a fixed metal item. It's a webbing or or you know, a movable item that can shift on you much easier than a climbing stick can shift. So it takes practice and and it also requires, you know, an element of risk that you have to be okay with. So that's the two main categories of aiders. Carries you go, take it up with you as you climb, or a fixed eater that you you attach on every stick. What I find, if I had to say, I would say my method a carry as you go multi step eight er because I use four steps. There's four rungs in the ladder on my aider, And again that's probably as risky as it gets and now and I'm taking it up as I go, So it's not something that I recommend for people that are are new to this. What is probably if you want to dip your toes into the eight er game, which I highly recommend it because it saves you a ton of it could well, first of all, saves your money. You don't have to buy six steps anymore. You can just buy three and use your eiders. But a fixed eight er, specifically on your very first stick, that's a really safe option for guys. You know, and now instead of getting three ft off the ground from your first stick, now you can get six or seven ft off the ground and your very first move, which is which is a big deal. And then you know, maybe a single step eight er fixed eighter on each stick. That's that's not terribly risky, it's pretty safe. I've used those before and I would say most hunters out there are gonna feel perfectly comfortable with that. And then as your risk tolerance goes up, I would say you could consider adding multi steps to your to your sticks and then maybe something that you carry up with you. But it's not something you want to do in the dark on your first hunt. This is something where you need to set it up in the backyard. You need to learn your system, and you need to make sure you can do it in the dark and you're very comfortable with it. Don't just go out and and try it on your first hunt. The other thing is very very important with aiders is if you're using a saddle system, you're gonna have a Lineman bell system built into that. So that's good, it's absolutely it must have. If you're a tree stand guy, I'm sorry, but you also need to have your safety harness on so you can use that Lineman belt. Okay, it's very safe, very very important for safety, and it's also very important for just having both hands free to attach your next stick. It just makes everything easier. So make sure when you're doing this you're you're using either a saddle system or a safety artist. Yeah. Great, great point. And I'll second something you mentioned about that kind of intro to eight or kind of first step that being used it on your bottom stick. Yeah, that's that's what I do. I've got a four step web eight er that I will just attach to my bottom step, and that allows me to put that bottom step really high and then I can climb up the webbing to get to that, and so I basically have the equivalent of at least one extra stick, maybe a stick and a half of extra length that I get out of that four step webbing. And then I get to my main stick, and then I put my two sticks up, one of which has a fixed one step eight er um. And never do I feel uncomfortable because, yes, like you mentioned, the eight er is a different thing, right, it's a different level of stability, not as stable as a real stick. But if you're doing that when you're only two ft off the round, you know, the downside of swinging off the side or something is super minimal um. Which brings me to the last thing I mentioned when it comes to using eights um. One like technique thing I found when you're putting your feet in those eights is and I'm curious if you do this or if you found any other trick to just doing it in a way that keeps you stable. But I always put my foot through the webbing so into the step and then press my toe against the tree and use that to stabilize you. If you were to just put your foot in that webbing but then let it, you know, be on either side of the tree, you can get swung uh. And you know if your sticks not tached well, you know it could even possibly pull your sticks. So make sure, at least with with the things I've used. I always make sure to put my foot through, put my toe against that tree, holding myself in position on the tree, and then that keeps everything straight underneath the sticks, keeps you stable, and then you keep stepping up. Is that similar to what you do greg you nailed it. Brry that toe into the tree as dead center and the tree as possible. And then you also want to get that webbing what's called a rung, the rung of the ladder, because that's easy to visualize. If you want to get that rung is deep into your boot as possible. Right if the if the wrung is way up close to your toe, it's gonna lend to swinging around and it's not going to be a stable But if you can get that wrung deeper towards the heel of your boot, it's gonna be way more stable and you're not gonna feel You're not gonna feel uncomfortable at all. Um So that's very So where do you stand on the batship crazy notion of one sticking? You know, I gotta be careful with this because because some of my best friends in the world love it and it's really caught on recently, and you know, if when you here. So here's the thing. When you watch someone that's really good at it, and I can think of two people off the top of my head. Carl Kasu, who is the Michael Jordan of sewing um, he is really good at it. And then my friend Garrett Praul, the d i Y sportsman on YouTube. He is really good at it. And when you watch those guys do it who have their system dialed in, it makes you believe it that this is really a thing and that you can do it. Now. I've tried it. I've I've hunted that way. I've done it in the backyard a whole bunch. I don't really care for it personally, but I'm not gonna knock it because I I've hunted with Carl in North to actually North Dakota. Last year, I was climbing sticks. I had three sticks with an aider that I moved up I carry as you go aid or I took it up with me as I climbed, and Carl used as one stick method. He was just as fast as me going up the tree, and he was probably about faster coming down the tree because he was able to repel down and he didn't have to worry about wrapping up sticks. So I think someone when you when you see it the first time you're a hunter, is gonna think, man, that's really slow, Man that looks really wonky, or man that looks like a lot of effort, I'm gonna get super sweaty. And I would say, yes, that's true in the beginning. But if you if you really value lightweight and a fulk free climbing system, it absolutely can be done. And if you're willing to put in some time in the backyard and really dial in your system, I promise you you can be just as fast and just as efficient as any other climbing method out there. And I've not seen it firsthand, so I'm not just blowing smoke, and and I don't choose to use that method, so I have nothing to gain from it. So it's it is a it's a viable method. You really can do it, but you have to be willing to put in some work. I think it requires more work than a traditional climbing stick and an eight or system. Yeah, it's definitely intriguing. You know. I've watched the videos seeing people do it, and I'm like, okay, like I see it could happen. It could work, and I like the idea of only taken one stick, um, but I don't know if I'm there quite yet. So well so it also for a tall guy like you, Mark, it would be phenomenal. You could do like three moves and be at Now me at five ft seven, I probably have to do five moves to get up that high. So being again, being tall is an advantage, you know, screw me here, but the other benefit it So I'll use Carl again because he's probably the most efficient one stick climber I've ever seen Carl's entire kit from his he uses the saddle, so no no tree stand. But with his saddle, his platform, his ropes, his one stick is repelling gear. Everything he said like eight pounds and it all fits on his hip and he can climb any tree in the woods that he can get his ropes around. That's pretty significant. If you're a guy that goes really deep, or you're crossing water, or you have to you hunting the mountains where you going up and down and you're you're covering a lot of elevation, it's something that you should really consider because you could cut your entire weight by two thirds at least, So there is a lot of merit to it if you're willing to put in the effort. Yeah, yeah, I ye. I'm gonna keep on exploring it. I'm probably gonna try it at some point and see how it goes. And we'll see. But let's timewhere in Michigan. I'll get Caral, I will we'll come up and we'll hang out with you in Michigan and I'll get called through the ropes and I mean, he'll probably he'll probably make a believer out of you. I probably. I can't doubt it, because every time I find myself thinking I don't know about that thing, as soon as I finally try it, when it comes to anything mobile, every time I've finally give it a shot, I'm like, oh, yeah, of course I should do that. So so yeah, to piggyback on that point, you've been a saddle hunter now for a couple of years now, and I know, yeah, so I got to imagine that you probably had the same resistance or hesitation when you started seeing saddles. You were probably like, man, you know, I don't know, So I would say that it's probably akin to the same thing. There's gonna be resistance and hesitation, but it really is. Once you try it and get used to it, it's a it's a viable system. Yeah yeah, and then you're right. That's exactly how I felt for a long time. And then once I finally try rid it, I thought to myself, what an idiot? You could have been doing this for five or ten years longer. Uh so, yeah, just twenty pounds of metal out of my setup. Yeah, I don't know how you can argue against that. So it's been It's been good for me, I know for a lot of guys. But uh, let's let's take the next step in our process. If we've we've spent a lot of time talking about the right gear four years scent, but then there's something to be said about having the right process for getting up in the tree. And this is something everyone has a little bit different way of doing it. Um. I know that you saw the video I posted recently kind of highlighting the basic approach that I take. Um, But this is one of those things that you know, some people again struggle with when they're thinking about the fact they've got to put these sticks up every time and haul up their tree stand or haul up their saddle in their backpack and their bow and YadA, YadA, YadA. Um. I remember when I first started hunting with a mobile tree stand, and I did not have a thought through process. I used to climb up and down the tree like three times because I climbed down get some stuff, put the first stick or second stick, then I climb back down get my bow or whatever. I'd have a really heavy backpack, so I wouldn't want to be in the tree, you know, climbing with that. So I come all the way down and get my backpack and it was just inefficient as I'll get out. Uh, it's a much better system I have now. But I'm curious about your process now, because again you've been doing this as long as anyone almost. Um, what does your process of getting everything into the tree look like? Like? Where do you hang your sticks on your body? How do you what do you use to bring your bow up? Uh? Where's your platform? YadA, YadA YadA. Give me the detailed specifics on that front, because it's I know, it's a fine tune system now. It is a finely tuned system, and I've been working on it for about a decade and I pretty much have it nailed. And your video that I saw on YouTube was absolutely phenomenal. You pretty much covered everything that someone needs to know as far as what you should be thinking about UM, as far as I guess, let's first us talking about it conceptually. UM if I can be a nerd here for a moment, but there's a lot of truth to the cliche or the saying an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, right, so you would be amazed. I guess. I have this conversation with hunters all the time, and we help them lighten their loads and think about their gear more efficiently, So I know this is true that if if a hunter will go out with their system in the backyard or on their nearest piece of public land and just spend half an hour going through it and really thinking about the process and each step of the climb for themselves, and then think through how they can make it better, you can really dial in your system and just a couple of just a couple of tries. It's not that complicated. It's just about putting the effort in ahead of time looking for that ounce of prevention, and it will pay big dividends on the back end. So I tell people that all the time, please go out in your backyard and practice this stuff, because you'll be amazed at the things that you'll be able to solve. But to get into my system. So we already talked about sticks. So I use three climbing sis and I use an eighter on each stick, and that goes up with me. So now I'm at the tree. I've got my bow, I've got my sticks. I normally, depending on the hunt, I will carry my bow in my right hand and I'll carry my climbing sticks in my left hand. And that's how I walked to the tree. Now, if I have if I have to cross a creek, or if I've got a long walk and or i gotta climb hills and it's gonna be you know, sweaty or something, I'll generally strapped the sticks to the back of my pack. But what I want to do, and the reason why I carry my bow in my hand and my sticks in my hand, is because when I get to the tree, I don't want to have to take off my pack. I don't want to have to fiddle with my gear. I want to have it all ready to go. So I literally find in the tree and I immediately start climbing. So when I'm looking at the tree, I found it. It's in the right spot. It's a beautiful oak tree that's dropping acorns, and there's five scrapes within twenty yards. I'm like, Okay, this is a spot. This is the tree. I put my bow down and I start attaching my sticks. The first stick goes on at ground level and the other two sticks get hooked onto my saddle. How do you attach them your settle? I have a um a loop of paracord and I basically just loop it around the sticks, or I use a rubber gear tie and and tie it around the six I can't remember what's on my saddle now, but I think it's a gear tie right now. But there's lots of ways you can do it. You don't have to spend money, it doesn't have to be complicated. You're just connecting your and there's even some some commercial products out there that you can use for that. So there's lots of ways to do it. But essentially, I just attached my my next two sticks onto my hip and they're going up with me, so I don't leave anything on the ground for my bow. Pull up rope. That's the next thing that I do is I attach my my bow rope to my bow, so I don't forget it. Uh. I just use a length of I use thirty ft of of parachord. Nothing fancy. Another good option that I know a lot of folks use is the Doyle's Hunting Hoist, or there's maybe another brand. I'm not totally sure, but basically it's a self retracting chord. So after you pull your bulb, you can release it and then the cord comes up. You don't have to wrap it up. I use UM simple. So now my bow is attached to my saddle. I've got two climbing sticks on my hip. My platform is on my back in my backpack. UM on the outside of it so it's easy access. I don't have to dig through my pack to get at it. And I have one climbing stick on a tree with an ad or. I climbed the first stick. I put my limban belt around the tree and connect it to my saddle or your safety harness if your tree stand guys, so you're safe. Um. And then I just pop off the next stick and attach it and up I go. That goes all the way to hunting height, and when I'm at hunting height, that magical twenty ish feet for me. Attached my platform, which is super easy because it's it's on the back side of my Basically, just reach behind my back and pull it up. I don't have to do anything special. I attached that. Climb up onto my platform, get all tied in so I'm safe, pull my bow up and hang it on my either my hook or my gear strap or whatever it is that I'm gonna use. So my system is super super simple. I also like to keep all of the necessary safety items on my saddle, so we call them ciss hollers, and they're just little pouches that live on your saddle. But there's lots of things you can get. You can make your own, you can buy military surplus. There's lots of companies that make them, so that's a really easy thing to find. But I like to make sure that all of the nint things that I need for a hunt they live right on my saddle. So my two ropes, my tether, and my lineman belt live on my left hip, and then my eider, my carry as you go eider, and my gear strap that lives on my right hip, and my boat rope is is lives on my right hip as well, not in the pouch, but it lives separately and it's always there, so I can't forget every anything. I have everything that I need attached to my hips. As I climb, I don't have to dig through my backpack. I don't have to fiddle in my pockets. I know where everything is and it's simple. Then when I come down, everything goes back in exactly the same pocket in the opposite direction. So my gear strap comes off and goes in the bottom of my bottom of my pouch, and and vice versa. Lineman belt comes on, attaches to the tree, and tether rope goes into the into the pouch on my left hip, so it's right where it's supposed to be. Nothing goes in my pack. Ever. The only thing I carry in my packs are accessories and changeable things that I might use on different hunts, like if I need layers or rattling horns or whatever. All the all the accessories live in my pack, But the stuff that I absolutely must have that I can't hunt without, they all live on my saddle and they're in the exact same spot every single time, dialed absolute dialed dial And I can do this uh very very quietly without making hardly any noise uh to about twenty ft in about ten minutes. That's taking my time. That's that's focusing on making slow, methodical movements. So I'm not waving my arms and acting crazy in the tree. So I'm going slow. I'm being very quiet, and I'm really focusing on what I'm doing, so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be unsafe. Right, it's about ten minutes. It's not about speed, that's not the point. I'm just just letting you know that it doesn't take that long to do this, and you know it doesn't take you thirty minutes to get set up. You can do it. If I was really hustling and I didn't care about noise, I could probably be set up in five six minutes. It's super fat. Yeah, So I want to get into one last set up related thing. Um, And this is just like how you're actually set in the tree for the hunt. Um. And I know you're you're obviously saddle hunting, so this is gonna be a little bit saddle specific. But maybe there's some things you can point out that might be relevant even for the stand folks. Um, and we did. I'll point out for anyone listening to this. I mentioned this at the very beginning in my introduction. I'll mention it again now if you didn't listen to our Ultimate saddle Hunting roundtable that I did with Greg and John Eberhart and Ernie and Andy and oh there might have been someone else in there too. Um, that was episode. We got into a lot of detail in these things with saddle specific setup. Um, so I don't I don't want to spend too much time on that, but but real quick, if there's anything different now, Greg, that you've changed with how you're setting up your actual saddle set up when it gets to being in the tree and or this is the part that thinks relevant to anyone, is your accessory set up, Like how you hang stuff where you hang stuff? Um, I like how you've got this little custom bow hanger on the side of your bone. Now that might be something worth mentioning. Is there anything on that front that we just need to touch on before moving on when it comes to in the tree. Yes, Um, so, first of all, I'm i I'm gonna I'm gonna plug a tethered product. But you don't have to buy it from me, But I'm gonna plug it because it's so super important. It's about five or six years ago before tether was even a business, and I was just in the Army, just hunting all over the country in the Army. I may. I used to make these gear straps in my garage out of old ratchet straps, and now that has turned into a product called the His Strap. But and it's awesome. I think every I think every public land hunter should use it. It's the best way to hang your gear in my opinion. Low no weight, no bulk, whatever. But you can make it. You don't have to buy it. You can. You can make it on your own. You know. I think I actually did a video on how to make it, so you should. Everyone should look at that. But it's it makes it makes your gear in your tree so incredibly easy. Uh. The bow hook that you talked about, that's another thing you can make it yourself. I bought a some Kaidex for those of you that don't know what kaidex is. It's a it's a it's a hard plastic that when you heat it up it's it's moldible and what it's typically used for is making custom gun holsters. So you will mold the kaidex around your gun and then you can make that into a holster. Well, I make these little hooks, and there is a video where I show it on the G two Outdoors YouTube channel UM on how to make it. It's essentially an upside down jay And what I do is I attached that it looks like a candy cane, and I attached that that candy cane or jay hook or whatever you wanna call it. I attach it to my bow. I attach it to my quiver. And Mark, did I send you any of those? I don't think so a kay, I'll send you a couple. I made a bunch of them, like two weeks ago. Actually, I sent a couple of Janice. He asked me for a couple, so I sent him a couple, so I said, I'll send you a few. But they're they're they're stupid easy as far as attaching your bow, and I haven't found anything else in the world is easy. Is hanged for hanging your bow and other other items as this little jay hook. And I don't even know if you can buy it. Maybe somebody has made them. I don't know. I'm make it myself. But anyway, Yeah, that's really cool system. I've used that for the last two years. I used to hang my bow on some commercial products. It's called the clipped or the hero clip, and it's basically a big hook. That's probably what you use Mark. It's a big caribbean or essentially, and you just you put that on your gear strap or you're a branch or whatever you have a hunting night, and that's how i'd hang my bow. And I've I've switched away from that and I'm using these jay hooks. But uh yeah, my system as far as gear in the tree is pretty simple. Again, it's repeatable. I do it the exact same way every time. I'm a saddle guy. So my backpack gets hung on the right hand side of the tree at about knee height, and then all of my accessories that I want if I'm gonna hang my bonos or a grunt call or whatever, that kind of gets hung in front of me off of my gear strap, so I have it available. A lot of guys will keep that stuff in their pack and just kind of sift through their pack if they need it. But you know, that's kind of to each his own. They're not not anything major um to mention other than that Jay Hooker. That thing is really awesome. So check that out and you can make it. You can make it yourself and it's not hard to do. Yeah. Yeah, I like that, especially the fact that it's silent. Right, there's no introduced metal. You've just got this plastic clip on your bow and then you're just slipping into the loop on your gear strap versus you know, taking the metal cam of your bow and possibly clinking that on a bow hold or something that's also made a metal. Um. So anytime you can remove metal out of the system, I'm a fan. Agreed. Uh So, let's let's get into the hunting element of the running gun approach because gear, obviously, gear and setup is this huge kind of barrier to entry for a lot of people. But now let's say we've got our system in place, we have the basic elements of gear, and now we're actually gonna start hunting this way. We're gonna go pack in our stuff, find a new place to hunt, set up at the moment, and then you know, repeat over and over again. Um, let's say, it's the beginning of a hunt in a new place. We're traveling just like you are here soon to North Dakota, just as soon as I am. And you're beginning to hunt with no pre hung stands right, it's all on your back and you're gonna be figuring out as you go. Talk to me about your day one thought process and you know actual actions you will typically take on day one of a running gun hunt like this. What's that look like for Greg Godfrey? Okay, so I've done that. I really have to two methods that I use and and let me preface this answer with I do not claim to be the world's greatest big buck killer. Uh, I feel like I'm much better. Kind of gear is my thing. For whatever reason, I felt like I'm an expert in that arena when it comes to killing big giant bucks. There's way more successful people out there. But I think it probably does help to get different opinions right, because nobody, nobody is the perfect hunter. So my opinion of being a very average dear big buck killer is I kind of used two methods and I've been successful at both, so I guess it really depends on the area and how much time I have to hunt for to choose which one I'll do. Uh. Two years ago, uh, two or three years ago in Missouri, me and my brother went to Missouri for the first time, never hunted there out of state, and we hunted a big chunk of public land. We had. We had seven or eight days to hunt. We have both taken time off work. We spent the first two days scouting. We we didn't really I don't think we hunted at all. I think we scouted all day and we may have possibly gone in and hunted in the afternoon. I can't remember, but regardless, the focus was scouting. We both had opportunities at mature Bucks, and I killed one that really paid off. I've also gone in and gone straight up run and gun and showed up to the area, put all the you know, put everything, got my kid together on my back, and gone in and just hanging hunt, found somewhere to hunt, and I've killed deer that way. So I don't know if there's one superior. I know that if I have multiple days to hunt, you know, call it. Let's let's say seven days. Is that that magic number We're all transition into spending a day or two just learning the area us scouting, and that's not all just boots on the ground walking through the woods. A lot of it is scouting access scouting where other people are scouting. What where some maybe some private land that might give us an access. Maybe we knock on a door and try to get access to in a creative way to the land that we can hunt. So it's not just walking through looking for rubs and scrapes. That's not the only type of scouting I'm talking about. I'm talking about an overarching get a lay of the land. And really you only have to do this the first time you've been to an area. The next the next year we went back, we didn't do this. We only you know, we basically jumped right into hunting because now we had this bank of spots that we knew were good. Yeah. So that's a method that you can take spend some time scouting. I learned that from John Eberhardt Um and it is paid off for me. No, what about the other one, the other one where you you kind of rig up day one and you're gonna kind of work your way in and I'm assuming kind of scout your way in until you find a spot that you want to hunt. Um, that's definitely something I've done too, And it introduces this tricky endeavor though, where you've got everything you need to hunt anywhere, but you also have this, at least I do. As you work your way along, there's always the what's over the next hill question? Right, what's around the next corner? It might be better just over there. And so I find myself finding sign or finding something or good looking spot, and I'm like, wow, this this looks pretty good. This could work, But I really like the way that thing looked on the map or whatever. And so that's a challenge that I've certainly faced, trying to figure out what's good enough to stop, what's not good enough and I should keep going? Uh. When you are working your way in on a hunt like that, can you talk to about your thought process and what is enough to stop and hunt right now versus and I gotta keep looking. That's a fantastic question. Normally, the first day, I'm so where, I'm picking a terrain feature on a map or some sort of maybe not necessarily terrain, but some sort of funnel, or I'm picking up spot on a map, and I'm I'm going there and there's not too much that's gonna deter me normally now, and I have had instances where that didn't happen. And perfect example is last year in North Dakota, I killed a buck. I was planning to walk three quarters of a mile into this public area and hunt this thick river oxbow, and I found a stupid amount of sign right by my truck, and I made the right call. I followed my gut and I hunted that spot and I killed a really big buck right by a truck. A matter of fact, I could see my truck forty yards from the truck, so that that's hard to do for me. I think there are other hunters that are better at that. My friend Jared Schaefer, he's really good at fine and sign like at and kind of altering his plans. I tend to be a planner. Maybe it's my military background, where you plan and plan and then you follow the plan. But I tend to pick a spot on a map, and I don't get deterred too much unless it's just unless you know it's idiot proof signed. Then in that regard, you know even I can figure it out. But I'm not real smart, so I just tend to stick to my plan. What about your military background or how has that helped with that planning? Like, what have you taken from that background and applied to your deer hunting you know, your game plan for a public land hunt or for a given day. Uh does that translate in a big way? Absolutely? Absolutely so. As I was, I was an officer in the military for ten years in the army, and primarily what an officer does in the army is plan that's your that's your primary objective. And most jobs in the Army as an officer your planning, and you're typically planning with other people. So you're looking at a problem, doesn't matter what it is, You're looking at it from every possible angle, and then you're throwing scenarios back and forth amongst your group, and then you're planning on how to solve that variable. And then another variable comes into it and you're planning and you're learning how to plan on that variable. So I really think it it Uh, it translates well into hunting new public land for me, because I I mean a lot of guys have this. I'm not saying I'm special, but I do feel like I can look at a piece of property and analyze it from a lot of different angles. And I've been very fortunate, lucky, blessed, whatever you wanna call it to to have that work out for me. Um. You know, the flip side is to that, the con right, because there's pro and con to every system. The con to that is sometimes you can find yourself getting you know, analysis paralysis, and you can overthink things. And I can do that as well. Um tends to not happen as much as I've gotten older and more experienced. But yeah, the planning side of the military, I think it translates very well into specifically the run and gun mobile style of hunting, where you have to figure out an area very quickly. So speaking of analysis paralysis, I I am frequently infected by that disease. And UM, one of the places, one of the situations where I find myself in that kind of moment. And if people were to ever watch me in the woods, they would know that I'm in this situation when they see me stopped somewhere in the middle of the woods, looking up to the left and then looking to the right, and then looking ahead of me, and then walking three yards this way, then looking at my phone for about a minute and shaking my head and then looking back up to the left and looking to the right. And what I'm doing is trying to pick which damn tree I want to hunt because I found the spot, but I want to find the spot within the spot, the perfect tree for this general zone I'm hunting. UM. I think you know there's an art to this. UM. I'm curious what your thought process looks like when picking the tree. What are the most important criteria? What do you rank as the most important when you're looking at the different criteria, um? And how do all the different things we just talked about when it comes to ascending a tree and having a good setup in the tree, how does all that impact what you pick as well? Oh? Well, I I mean I don't think there's any mobile run and gun guy out there that doesn't it doesn't pick the tree in the same way. I mean, I do the same thing. In a perfect world, you would get to your spot and there's a beautiful oak tree with the perfect amount of cover, it's the right diameter, it's not leaning one way or the other, and it's set up to where that scrape is fifteen yards away, and you've got a ton of back cover. I mean, that's just rare really happens, right, So you're thinking of of all of these things, and it can be difficult. I mean you're thinking, Okay, is the tree leaning one way or the other. Is that going to cause me to be uncomfortable or or is it going to cause me to have to take a weird shot angle? Is it facing the right way? Am I going to be able to look the right way for the right wind. There's you know, a thousand factors that come into picking the right tree. This is one of the reasons why I ended up changing over to a saddle system. Nothing as tree stands. I'm not saying they don't work, that's not the point. I'm just saying for me personally, the way I hunt, I have found it in the in the mobile style of hunting that I can get into more trees more easily with the saddle hunting system. And that's just me. But I mean you could have ten other guests on here that would say the opposite, that the tree stand is more easy to use. So I'm not really making a claim either way. It's just that for me, that's my opinion, that's what works best, and I found that it makes that that decision a little bit easier because I typically will find two or three trees that will work. And then usually what I find in the as the last criteria is okay, well I can kill I can hit the spot I want to hit with. You know, these three trees. So I'm gonna pick the one that looks the most comfortable, and that's usually I guess the final deciding criteria. You know, if I don't have to trim any limbs, or one gives me a little bit more cover, I'm gonna I'm gonna pick that one just because it's ease of use. But I wish there was a magic formula that I could give to to make picking a tree easier. But I find that I'm in the same exact boat as you. And then I'm looking around and and then you're always second guessing yourself too. Right, you start climbing up a tree and you're like, oh, man, but look at that one. There's a poplar over there that just looks perfect. Maybe I should get in that one. And you know, typically, in me fashion, I typically just stick with my first choice. And you know, most times you're go with your gut, your I think, what what do they say when you're taking like a standardized test that like most of the time your first guest is the right guest. So maybe that that translates into hunting picking a tree as well. Yeah, you mentioned shooting lanes. What's your philosophy and shooting lanes? Do you? Uh? I know there's some people even on mobile hunts, where they just have to make sure they get a handful of good lanes and they'll they'll do the extra work to do that. Other guys are like, Nope, I don't want to make an extra sound. I don't want to make a single extra movement. I'm just gonna live with whatever the tree gives me and maybe just you know, push something to the side right next to you in the tree or whatever. Um. And we're making an assumption that cutting student lanes is legal wherever you're hunting, right, some public land spots can't do that, but in the places that you can. What's your take. I tend to be the second guy. I tend to be the guy that doesn't want to make any noise. I don't want to break limbs, I don't want to cut lanes. I tend to be the guy that is willing to trade fewer shooting lanes for more cover and concealment. That's just me not saying I'm right. Um, that's what I do though. Okay, I found myself getting that way more and more. Here's another challenge, you know, if like the flip side John Eberhart, Sorry to interrupt, but John Eberhart's kind of the opposite, right, and he's one of my hunting mentors. He goes in preseason and he'll cut lanes to make sure he can shoot to every area it's possible, eat you know, where it's legal. Um, And I think he does that even on a on what does he call it a freelance hunt. Um, he'll he'll do the same thing. He'll cut lanes, and he's way more successful than me. So I don't know that there's necessarily right answer. I just tend to be a little bit more cautious when I'm getting in a tree and I don't want to make noise. Yeah. So if if shooting lanes are one potential challenge with hunting mobile right and just having that balance between quiet and quick versus opening more shooting opportunities, another their potential challenge with the running gun approach that I've found at least is that the flexibility that you have when you're running gun hunting has like an evil step brother side to it. So if the if the angel on your shoulder of the running gun white tail approach is the fact that you can have a first set every day, you can see something and you can move on it the next you know, an hour later and be hunting in that spot. Right you can get where you gotta go. That's the angel on one side, that's the beautiful side of this. On the flip side is that that sometimes maybe can go too far and you might find yourself jump into this spot to this spot, to this spot, to this spot, and then you're chasing your tail and uh, maybe you've overdone it. It is is that something you've experienced. Is there something to that, Can you go too far with being mobile or do you think that no, that's that's fine, go for it. What's your take there? No, I I think that I can tend to fall into that category where I moved too much. Um that happened to me last year. I was hunting in Missouri and I don't think I hunted the same tree twice and you know, good or bad. You know who's to say. But I think that I can fall into that trap of always thinking the grass is greener, right, I mean you said it earlier. What's over the next hill? What's over the next hill. I'm the same way, and I always think that the grass is greener or the acorns are fatter in another part of the woods. And I think you have to find that balance, right, I mean life is about finding balance and all things. And I don't I don't know why that wouldn't apply to running gun hunting if it should. You know, if you're in a spot and the sign is there and you sit at one time and you don't see a big buck, well, you know, yeah, maybe you should give it two or three more hunts. You know, there's there's I don't think there's any hard and fast rule where I would say would something that would A scenario that would make me think twice about moving is access If there's a spot that I find and the access is bulletproof. You know, maybe I get to walk through a creek ditch where there's a very low probability of getting winded or the deer getting on my ground set, or you know, whatever it is. If if access is there and it gives me an advantage, um, then I have no problem finding, you know, hunting that spot and and kind of camping out on it, because I feel like I'm not giving myself away to to a mature deer. Now, if I have to walk through and I'm covering a lot of ground and there's lots of opportunities for the deer to send me both my wind and and my ground sent then I'm probably gonna think maybe it's maybe it's not worth a second try. But those those unicorn places where you can get in and out of it undetected and the sign is there, Man, those spots can just be die to mine. Yeah. When you when you find that diamond and the rough, sometimes you really gotta you gotta baby and take advantage of it. I agree. I agree. I want to wrap it up with a final look at challenges here because there are some, uh, and you you do these events all over the country now where you're meeting with people that are interested in saddles and mobile hunting, and so I think maybe more than almost anyone else out there, you've probably talked to more mobile hunters or aspiring mobile hunters than maybe anyone else. So my question for you is this, what is or what are the biggest mistakes that you see people making when it comes to trying this approach to hunting, Like, what's what's the big one that we just gotta fix that if more people did this right, or if more people didn't think this way, or whatever it is, would make a whole lot of mobile hunters more effective. Is there anything that comes to mind? Yeah, there is, and and I think it goes back to practice. I don't think hunter's practice. Um, anything you want to be good at, you have to practice it. And we talked to people all the time that even though we tell them not to do this, they buy their gear and they get it in the mail and they're jacked. Or they buy tree stand and you know, they buy somebody this awesome new ultral tree stand and it's it's amazing, and they go out and they hunt with it, and they don't go in their backyard and they don't nail down their system and they just go out and hunt. And then what happens is they get to the tree and it's a cluster, right because the ropes are in the wrong place and they don't have the straps attached to their sticks, and they they fold down the climbing the tree stand and it bangs and it makes a bunch of noise, and they're like, this is b s But it's not the gear's fault, and it's not. It's not that they had the wrong strategy. They didn't take the time to train themselves in the practice ahead of time. I full believe that to thirty minute sessions in the backyard are on any piece of public land where it's legal, that can pay huge dividends. When you're talking about a mobile run, a gun set up, and I don't care if it's saddle treat I don't care what what your gear is. If you go out and you spend some time, some effort, just like you go out and practice in your backyard with your bow. People shoot all summer long, they're dialing in their bow. But how many people take out their tree stand or their saddle and they make sure it's not making noise. They make sure to hit the metal parts that are banging around with stealth strips or some other silencing material. How many people take the time to spray paint and knock off the really shining areas you have to pay attention to your gear. Probably in this style of hunting more than any other style of hunting. You really have to pay attention to your gear. You have to dial it in, and you have to practice. There's just there's there's no other way to to get to the level of efficiency and order to make this fun, because if you don't, if you aren't efficient with it, and it's it's kind of a cluster, it's not gonna be fun, and you're gonna quit, and you're gonna go on Facebook and you're say Greg Godfrey and Mark Kenyon are full of it. Their liars. They said I was gonna kill big Bucks, and all I did was make a bunch of noise and scare off every deer in the woods. And it's not Greg and Mark's fault. It's your fault. You didn't go and practice. Can't argue that. Man. I have been the victim of not practicing early on when I was trying this stuff, and uh, I learned very quickly that you gotta do it. You gotta get comfortable with it, because it's always harder when you're actually out there in the field and you think there's deer hundred yards away or it's pitch black or whatever like always in the field's harder to do. Uh, So practice ahead of time, so that's as close to second nature as you can make it, and you will you will never regret that time spent, that's for sure. Oh we had a it was a thing. Commanders in the Army used to always say. You know, their mantra was always trained as you fight. And what that means is that you know, you put yourself in the most realistic scenario as you can. And that's why the Army does these big, big exercises where everybody goes out, they set up all their gear and they go through scenarios and they try to make it as realistic as possible. Because when you're used to that and you're training like you would actually fight, well, when when the fight comes, then it's second nature and it's much more easy to deal with. It's the same way when you're learning a new tactic and a new strategy like mobile hunting. If you will go out there and you will practice just like you would be on November one, and you've set up your gear and you you know where your stuff is and you've got your system down down, I promise you, You're gonna enjoy it a lot more. Yeah, that's that's great. Train as you fight, it brings to mind something like I love these little mantras a little. Just sayings like that that kind of distill really important reminders that you just need to kind of have in your head to just like trigger Okay, yeah, I gotta I gotta rever do this for me. The last couple of years has been slow as smooth smooth is fast, because I have this tendency to always feel like I'm behind. I always feel like I need to rush to the next place. I'm always walking a million miles a minute like everything I do. Uh My buddies complained that I'm just like almost running everywhere I try to go, and that kind of filters into my hunting to whether it's trying to get up a scen of the tree or trying to get set up in the tree or picking the tree or whatever it is. I always feel like I'm behind. I gotta go faster, and so I need to remind myself slow as smooth or sorry, smooth, slow as smooth, smooth is fast, So just slow it down. If you slow it down, you actually end up making fewer mistakes. You actually end up going faster because you're not stumbling on yourself trying to rush through process. So for me, that's become a little bit of internal mantra of sorts. Through a lot of my run and gun hunts, I find myself saying that all the time. It's four in the morning, I'm worried about the sun gonna come up too soon or whatever, and I'm not quite set up, and um, maybe it's not forward, probably six thirty or something. But I'll just be slowest smooth, just like chill out, Mark, Just just keep doing the next step, next step, don't worry. And that helps me when when you think, do you find anything like that for yourself? Is there some kind of mantra you have, or any kind of one liner or or just anything like this that's with you on your hunts or as hunting season picks up that you take from your military background. Maybe, UM, I don't know, does any of this bring anything to mind for you? I I use the same one slowest, smooth, smooth is fast. It's uh, that's something we also talked about in the army specifically, Um, you know when we're doing whatever it was lots of exercises when sergeants and CEOs and and would would would repeat that mantra, and I use the same exact mantra when I'm climbing the tree. I just think to myself over and over again, slowest, smooth, smooth as fast, and it's it's it's about safety, it's about stealth. It just really makes a big difference. I use exactly the same thought processes you um trying to think. If there's anything else that I think through, Um, off the top of my head, I can't really think of anything else. But I'm glad to hear that great minds, great minds are there. Greg, We're on the same page. Um well, I gotta tell you, being the co founder of a mobile hunting company, you've done an amazing job of not being tempted to plug your own products throughout this entire thing, which I think a lot of people would think that would happen. Uh So, so thank you for making this relevant and applicable to anyone, no matter what style of hunting they use or what products that choose to use. But all that said, we are going to wrap it up. I'd be remiss if I didn't give you a chance to tell people where to go to learn more about the stuff that you actually build and put out for these types of hunters. So where can people go if they want to see the stuff that you actually use and recommend. Yeah, So we started we started a company with a bunch of mobile hunters that we all met online in a forum. Believe it or not, we started that about three years ago and it's kind of it's taken off and it's a whole thing now. But we're Tethered Nation and we made the world's best saddle hunting gear. In my opinion, I'm I'm biased, but there's a there's a lot of options out there now, which I kind of alluded to this earlier. Uh. The cool thing about since we've launched Tethered and you know some of the tree stand guys have taken that off, there is no better time in history to be to get into mobile hunting now, or get into mobile huntington right now, because you have options. I don't care if you if you're talking saddles or tree stands or I don't care what it is. There's options now, something that we didn't have five years ago. So do your research. There's lots of great resources on YouTube and social media. Mark has a whole bunch of content that's awesome talking about mobile hunting. I've got stuff on my channel, Tether's got stuff on their channel, so there's no reason not to be able to find the best stuff that you possibly can. And uh, you know, I happen to think our stuff is pretty great at Tether. I am a fan too. I can't I can't deny that. So Greg, thanks so much for taking the time and sharing this, uh, this insight. And uh, even though I've been doing this, you know with a stand I did it for probably the last ten years. In the last four years have been with the saddle, and I did do it more and more and more and more every year. It's uh, it's absolutely changed how I hunt. So I'm glad we get this chance to to dive into it specifically and hopefully help some people out. So I appreciate everything you're doing. Greg. Thank you, Thanks Mark, and that is it. Thanks for listening. Like Greg mentioned, uh, there's lots of great options out there for this kind of equipment, but I certainly, um, I certainly do love my Tether stuff. So for whatever that's worth, their one to check out and otherwise I would just encourage again to give it a try. This is an effective way to go about things. It's not for everyone, definitely not for everyone, but it might be worth a shot. It's worked for me, and UH hopefully it's something you can find some value in as well. And with that, I think we will shut her down. We'll send you guys out with another best of luck salutation I suppose what they call it. And UH, until next time, stay wired Ton