00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, home of the modern white tail hunter and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and today on the show, we are joined by Tyler Jones and Casey Smith of the Element to discuss hunting in the South, making a trip from the South to hunt in the Midwest, and how to kill public land bucks. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light, and today we've got a much needed topic of discussion, something we don't talk about enough. I'm sorry to those of you who have been asking for this and that I've been not doing it as much as I know you want. But we are talking about hunting in the South. We're talking about hunting and Texas. We're talking about the differences between hunting and the South and heading north and going to places like the Midwest and elsewhere. And joining me to do that is Casey Smith and Tyler Jones. They run the Element podcast the Element YouTube channel. They are a couple die hard public land bow hunters and they're getting it done. They're traveling across the country killing great bucks, doing it the d I y Any remand's kind of way that any of you could possibly replicate. So they're the type of people I really loved to chat with, and they've got a great perspective, especially because they're hunting a place that that I haven't hunting before, Texas, but they're having success in places that I have as well. So I thought this would be really interesting to see what's different, what's the same, what can be applied to either or I think there's a little bit of something for everyone here today. So I don't want to beat around the bush too much. I will just give you a couple heads ups, a couple of reminders before we get into it. Hunting season is about to start. My season kicks off here in just a matter of days, almost, which is insane. If you want to stay up to date with what's going on with my season, or Tony Peterson's or anyone else, make sure you're following Wired Hunt on social media, in particular on Instagram. You'll get to see the latest stories from my hunt's updates on what's happening. And then finally, make sure you're going over to the Wired Hunt website and signing up for a newsletter to get the weekly kind of note from me to get all the latest content share with you. If you go to the meat eater dot com slash wired w I R E D. That's where you're gonna find all of our articles. You'll have the opportunity to sign for the newsletter there, and you will be up to speed and be getting a lot of white tail know how to your inbox every week. So, without any further ado, I think you're gonna enjoy this chat. I definitely did. Let's get into it with Casey Smith and Tyler Jones. All right here with me on the line, I've got Tyler Jones and Casey Smith. Welcome to the show, guys, man, glad to be here. Thanks for having us. Yeah, I appreciate you making the time for it. I know you got a busy schedule Aheady. I'm sure you're just like me right now, which is running around like a chicken with my head cut off, trying to finalize last minute projects and get stuff packed and start thinking because I take off for my first hunt of the year on Friday, so seven days from now, six days from now, are you guys in a similar boat? Yeah, dude, pretty much. Yeah, I'll add to that that we um been redaling archery equipment to last little bit and yeah, same boat, you know, just trying to get stuff ready for the first hunt of the year. Where you headed. Uh, well, I'll tell you where I'm headed, but you're you got me terrified. I have to ask when you say you're you're redialing archery equipment seven days before the hunt. That sounds like the kind of thing that's making my stomach turn. What happened? Well, it's just a situation with um, you know, having new, newer bows and trying to decide if we're going to use stuff we're older that you're older and you're comfortable with, or if the new stuff is gonna work out, and YadA YadA. It's really not the best advice, tell you the truth matically people. But basically coronavirus has uh you know, kind of crushed all different shipping and production and manufacturing and everything. So like we just got bows that we thought we would get about May or June and so um, and I guess just not knowing whether that was coming or not. Um, I didn't never get my old bow tuned up, which is a ten year old Matthews. So it's like, you know, uh, it needed some work, uh, and I just never got it done. And now we're in this boat where we got bows in that. But we're feeling good now. Yeah. It's the beautiful thing about archer equipment nowadays is most of it's pretty good. So you know, if you've had a history of shooting, then uh, it's just about getting comfortable with the system. And you know, that's what we I always get stressed when I know that there's like a bow update coming or I've got to change, and I always have this period of paranoia or manic terror when I know they've got a new I've got a new boat coming. And then the bow arrives and I'm always like, oh, no, you know, is this gonna fit? Is this gonna feel right? You know, even if I shot it at the shop before, there's always this feeling like, oh, it's never gonna be quite as good as how used to I was with the old bow. And then, like what you just said, every time, like over the last I don't know ten years, when I've been kind of getting newer bow is more often than I used to. I always am shocked by how quickly these things just they tune fast. You get used to them fast. I think maybe it comes right down to the fact that all of the you know, relatively high end bows now are all they're all just darn gray. You really can't go wrong. I don't think now they're all I don't know, long ways from I mean, maybe you're gonna tell a difference from your ten year old bow to now, but but they're all pretty good. Yeah, Casey was saying yesterday, he was like, man like as a as a producer in this consumer market we have, like you can't get away with anything that's not you know, doesn't function like really well, because you know, consumers will just squash you on the internet no time and you'll be out of business exactly. You know, our dads grew up when like the word of mouth was the only way that anything happened, and everybody just shot with their local bullshop provided, you know. But now it's like, if you don't make a decent product, you know, everybody knows the words are not quick, very very true, which is a good thing for us. I guess the consumers that everything out there is it's pretty darn, pretty darn functional, So I can't complain about that. But you asked where my first hunt is I'm going to I'm going to Idaho for a white tail hunt soon. What about you guys? Yeah, we're headed in Nebraska for for white till as well. I guess it's any deer tag, but be pretty white soil heavy just because it's uh what we know, you know. But I'm not gonna turned down an opportunity on stalk or shot at a mule to here either. So excited. That's actually my first like early I guess you call it early season hunt, you know, like a September velvet hunt or whatever. It's my first time to do that. I usually go elk hunting this time of year. And then uh, Tyler and I talked a lot about stuff and decided we go try to do like an adventure hunt kind of more for deer instead. So that's kind of the plan. That's awesome. What else is on the slate this year? You guys travel a lot? How many states? What are you hitting? Um, that's a great question to you probably know this, but as public plan hunters sometimes even states you're you're a little bit conservative about mentioning, but now not a big I guess we have if you want to give me like code names for him or like abbreviations. So Brasker, we're going to Braska, We're going to SD South the quarter and then uh, and then it'll be Texas, maybe probably Illinois, Uh, can Kansas and uh maybe a couple other fill ins definitely one other Uh, there might be like Oklahoma. Um, just kind of depends. Like you probably know this, but like once November comes, anything can happen, and it's just like it's the same thing for your travel plans, like at any time it can change. You know, well, you'all kind of in a similar situation over the past few years at least, where like Tyler, this is your season mark. I think it was nine team when you shot the Big Buck. But like there's sometimes a deer come into your life and just like wreck your plans completely in a good way, you know, just like, Okay, everything is on hold until something happens here. And it's great to have the flexibility to be able to do that. I think that's really nice. I missed that a little bit because since starting to film stuff like this, like the US filming the Back for the last couple of years and now this year we're filming some new stuff. We have to have like stuff locked in, like because we're scheduling cameraman and and all that kind of stuff. That's totally thrown out my ability to to to to add hoc and to improvise. So I feel like I now my hands tied in this. I can't complain about it, because I guess do cool stuff. But I'm going to complain about right now, I guess and say that I missed your flexibility? What else? What else is podcasting? So just complaining for an hour, that's true. I'm glad, that's I'm glad I don't have the only podcast like that. Oh man, So a heck of a heck of a slate for you guys, And it's it's perfect to hear that, to know what you guys have coming down the pipeline, because a lot of what I was hoping to talk about today was it was about how you do this, how you balance these trips um. You know, I've done a lot of this traveling, hunting just like you guys. A lot of other people are starting to do that kind of stuff too, But it seems like everyone has their own little thing, their own little style, their own little I don't know, method to the madness. So it's it's interesting to me. No matter how many people I talked to that travel and hunt new places and hunt public plan, I always love to see into their minds that are always unique from mine. But but you guys are much more unique than most of the people I've talked to you because of one really big thing. The big thing is that and this is crazy. Like when I sat down, I was thinking about this. I can't believe it's true. And I'm gonna get murdered for this being true once people realize the case. I don't think I have ever, not once had somebody from Texas on the Wired Hunt podcast. What in the world that's for rott now? And yeah, I had to correct this head to correct it in a big way. So unless I mean other than the rout fresh stuff, but I mean, like for a main episode, for a main real wire Hunt episode, I've never had a Texas deer hunter around here unless there's someone I can't think of. That's just blanking. I'm getting old and I've got kids, so it's possible I've forgotten stuff, Yes, very possible. No, but that's We're man, thank you, And you need some Southern accents. I know, I know you're You're not the first person telling me that they're sick of here in my stupid Michigan accent and talking about the weird things we do up here. So oh man, it's fun. I love it. You know. Um my mom is from Minnesota, so like you're speaking my language, I just don't speaking back to you. I'm glad you understand the least. So it's okay. Would that would that being the case, like we have to at least spend I gotta get a Texas perspective on Texas deer hunting before we go any further. Yeah, So, as a as Texans yourselves living down there, what do you think about Texas deer hunting culture? What do you think about how it's perceived about the stuff you see going around you? Is is what I think Texas deer hunting culture what it actually is. It's that's that of course, that's pretty jecktive question. You're very knowledgeable guys, so you may not quite think what others perceived exactly. I would say that, Um, if if you don't know much about Texas hunting, the cliches you have heard definitely exist, like they're they're definitely a parts of Texas that are you know, it's high fence ranches and big buck contests and corn in the middle of two tracks from Big Tarer Blinds, you know, and and like that culture in itself. I'm not gonna go down the high fence road too far because I have a lot to say about that. But uh, you know, just the culture of the chan can't tease stuff like that, and I expect me not to press you on it. Um, I'll just say this, it's all a pen. I don't care how big it is. It's a pen. That's what I think about it. But um, yeah, not a big fan, but that's a pen for mission. Thanks for translating. Let's keep that going. Not the same thing as dropping a pen. But you know, as far as just like that style of hunt. You know, of course, Texas has a very generous rifle season, um and uh a ton of private land and um a lot of culture and history behind going to uh what we call the deer lease, which all meant you know, have like a similar concept of like deer camp. You know, it's it's kind of the same kind of thing where you uh all head down after you know, watching college football or whatever. And go sit out and hunt over bait and and you know, see what comes in, you know, and it's uh, that's how I started out, and so I grew up. I didn't do any high fence hunting, you know. And I think Tyler you probably did a lot of the same stuff, right, yeah, yeah, the same thing. I mean, dear uh the deer lease what we called it all time for for my family as well, and we just yeah, you uh, you leave out on a Friday and drive west through the Metroplex and um, you know, go usually stay in a hotel. So that's the kind of the difference I guess in like a deer camp, um a lot of times, um, there's not like a camp on the place or whatever. But yeah, that's that's kind of like I'm actually Casey and I were talking about this. We're at the bow shop yesterday, um, as we talked about getting our bows worked on, and the you know, the uh the kind of some of the cliches that you hear about big Bucks and stuff like that. We're all kind of at home talking about amongst each other about these things, and like I didn't feel like I like, um, some of the different cultural ideologies that we have um, but you know, there are different little niches where you've got certain guys that think a lot. You know, I have no problem with with high fences, and then there's some guys that, uh are kind of indifferent, and then there's some guys that you know, absolutely can't stand them. And so you know, just I think that, well, I don't know for sure what the perspective is outside of the state. I do think that, uh, we get kind of a pompous um we have, like people think we have a pompous air about us. I guess sometimes being from Texas week bigger and better and that kind of thing. You know, Dallas Cowboys Man, Dallas Cowboys much brag about there, yea sir. Uh. But anyway, it's just I think that, uh, you know, like sometimes when we got a state me in case at least, we try to kind of like laylo at a Colorado trailhead because we feel like everybody up there hates Texas because they come in hunt otc elk, you know whatever. So we have to kind of think about that sometimes when we're out and about. But I think hunting culture wise, though, it's like maybe this could compare for for you specifically, and other people might have a similar idea. Um, you know, Texas is a huge state geographically, right, so um, you I know, Michigan is pretty spread out. We were there a couple of weeks ago. It's a cool place, but we were in southern Michigan and it's completely different than the up right, so uh texts imagine Texas, uh like that, but like in seven different, seven different directions, you know. So what people think about is the cliche Texas type hunt is pretty regional, you know, it's it's probably a you know, what do you say, two two d square mile area something like that, which sounds like a huge chunk of land and it is. But like you also have all these different subsets or you know, uh, I guess you would say, um biomas or whatever they might be of just different hunting cultures. You know. Where we live, we're kind of right on the edge of um kind of more of a a grarian like what you might think of as Kansas, Oklahoma top stuff where there is some you know, beans and corn and things like that kind of north of us. And then kind of where we are exactly is the transition into like more of Deep South type stuff with pines and oaks and stuff like that, so much more. Still, you know a lot of gun hunting that goes on, um but close quarters, long sits without seeing any deer, stuff like that. And that's kind of how we grew up hunting, at least closer to home. You know, Like the the dear least thing was almost like vacation. He really was the vacation that we had. Now, what about dear behavior, dear numbers, dear quality, all that. Now, understanding that, like you just said, very regional. This might be different, obviously different in different parts of the state. But if you had to, if you had to give me a Texas dear one, oh one, can you give me like how And I guess what I'm gonna ask you is here because we we need a reference point. Tell me how Texas deer are different compared to like the Midwestern states you've been to that I've also been to and that a lot of people listening have, Um, what's that? How does that differ? Because I know there's differences there. What stands up to you? Yeah, tiny body, Yeah, so Tyler actually uh killed a giant possibly once in a lifetime deear off of his property here last year, which none of you'll need to know where that's at. But and uh, he for sure it's just a beautiful specimen, right but um, you walk up on him and it's just body, you know, maybe two thirds of what you might see in most of your Midwestern states. You know, like what do you think that do your weight on the hood? Man? Hundred and that maybe um, you know, just to completely different, not to make anybody mad here, but subspecies I guess of deer. So I mean even like skinning him out, like the hair was so much shorter and thinner and the skin was so much thinner because they just don't have to you know, Like we still get a lot of golf are here, so we have a pretty moderate uh winner and we can almost grow citrus trees here, you know. Yeah, so um but like you know, like if I was to think about trying to explain this to people who haven't been to Texas and deer hunted, I would think, um as our region and maybe maybe like also the deep East Texas stuff has been kind of a similar region with smaller bodied deer uh some kind of like darker hair, characteristic traits. Um, A lot of the rut is going to be like probably smack dab in the middle of November, like around the fourteenth. You know, he's seeing really good trail camera data around the fourteenth of November. Um, so obviously like that's when the chasing period is happening the most pronounced, I guess um. And then you could go down to the golf where Casey spent some time on the coast and what would they rutting in Michael August and September one they were run before um, you know even your season started. And that was always the local thing was like, wow, we don't even get the hunt on the run. But yeah, that's a weird thing too, because like they manage UM, they manage our state kind of, you know, they try to do like some regions, but it's not really UM as a microregional or microregionally managed as it should be probably, But I mean you've got you've got that happening on like in the South Texas Gold Gulf Coast area and then over to the west is all the brush country, which is mesquites and sindaro and stuff like that, and um, that's where the big money is in the big ranches, lots of high fence places down there, still low fence places too, and you've got a mid December rut kind of early to mid December, um is when you see the most chasing and stuff like that. And then you've got the Transpacas region way out west. If you look at kind of that uh western a little pointy thing where the rio meets um, that's all gonna be a lot more area and mountainous um and and really more multley than anything. Carmen White Tip, Carmen mountin White Til right over there some of that. I mean, I've spent some time out there, and there are white hills all the way out, but it's just I don't know, it's almost accessible because so many large land tracks, you know. That's that's I mean, it's so it's so privatized out there. You're talking about like Jeff Bezos is they got one of the owners of land out there, you know, so like um. Then you've got the Panhandle region, which is a little more of that kind of Midwest feeling a little bit bigger body deer um overall UM, little lower numbers um throughout and still very privatized. So this is stuff you know more about with the lower real Grand Valley stuff down there that's like 're not lower but real Grand Valley. You have the Golden Triangle where it's an anomaly of dear body size. Yeah, so that brush country I was talking about is typically the deer there are a bigger body size as well than most of the rest of the state. Um. And I don't know why that is necessarily because just good they say mesquite mesquite beans are actually a high high source of protein. I don't know, but yeah, those are kind of some of the regions. And we've got like North Texas, what's considered kind of North Texas, which is like DFW region and all that surrounding and out west a little ways to the Panhandle, and that's still pretty mesquite heavy. Um. I think those mesquites actually came up with the cattle drives from like Mexico, and since all the things that's kind of cool living around here is that like when you see mesquite, like we have a couple of patches locally, you know, it's because those cattle were driven up from like that brush country stuff way down south and then defecated and spread or spread seeds up here. So it's kind of a it's just a cool legacy type thing. And then right in the middle of the hill country, and we call it hill country. A lot of people up in like your area would probably laugh at us because they're not you know, it's just hillier than everything else. But it's a lot of limestone and stuff like that, real pretty country. It's actually really hide to all our real estate. A lot of it, um and and there is some public land down there, a lot of it's on a draw And those deer are very small bodied overall, and um, very plentiful. It's wild man like. Um, you know you're talking. I think you're kind of a looting like you were talking some about like, you know, body characteristics and stuff like that, and of course we went straight to body size, but you know, antlers or what kind of makes this thing around. You know, it's it's it's so weird how it's been stigmatized when you talk about trophies and things like that, just because of you know how just in the public everything we do is now right, so you have to just kind of be careful about the way you describe things. But it also makes you, um take a little extra effort to explain your reasoning on stuff. But anyways, you know for antler size and stuff like that. Uh, I feel like most people down here are just doing their best to shoot something that's you know in the and ups top thing. You know. It's just anytime you see a Deyer around here that's gonna score super high, it's because it has like a one forties to one fifties top frame and a bunch of junk. You know. That's like, that's what is gonna usually happen. We just don't have the genetics, at least in our area to have those you know, seventies and eighties top de Yer. But it happens every once in a while. So uh, there's always of these old stories and you might know the other end of it. But um, like you go to Texas or Mr. Something to be a old guy there and he's like, oh, that's one of them deer. It's got something Michigan blood and him. You know, back in the eight down here. They love to talk about that. They love it. But I don't know how y'all had to give away, but it must have been millions. I'm glad that a few of them made it to you. Yeah, what about behavior? I mean, if if I'm thinking about the assumptions I have of Texas. I've never hunted there. I have spent a little bit of time, and I've got family that lived down there, so I've visited, uh and so I've seen some of the critters running around. If I had to make an assumption about Texas deer, my assumption from two thousand miles away is that there's a lot of them. They are kind of dumb. They come into the corn feeder and just feed like birds, blah blah blah blah blah, and those things that you see. And then secondly, they react to rattling more than anywhere else. That's another thing that I feel like stands out that I've heard. I don't know if that's a myth or not, but if I we're gonna pull these assumptions, I'd say rattling works like crazy in Texas. Tell me is any of that actually true? And then number two, having the experience you guys have of Midwest and Texas, how do you actually see things being different from a behavior standpoint and how they operate and all that stuff. It's wild because I hate to go back to this, but it's so regional because we have such a large state. I would say that what we hunt on a normal basis, which is kind of the eastern half of the state, none of those things that you've mentioned would be true here. But what we have here looks nothing like what you might get a chance to see on TV, because everybody does go where it's probably a little easier to do, you know, like, for instance, where we live, UM, a lot of you know, suburban lot type areas in in UM, you know, neighborhoods and stuff. But even the larger tracks, I mean, you're talking about forty fifty acres stuff like that, which I'm is probably kind of similar to UM, you know, kind of where you're from. Whereas out west, you know, in the western half of our state. Uh, you know, two thousand acres is a small place. So what ends up happening where we live is since it's um, you know, bait is legal here, every twenty acre property has a corn feeder. So, uh, it's kind of one of those situations where if everyone's on the same plane, you're on the same plane. You know, if you have a corner in the middle of two thousand acres, you can bring some deer in, you know, But if you have twenty corn feeders on two thousand acres, you can't bring in very many fere you know, so I think, Um, we've talked about this at length on our show before, but corn is kind of a weird deal because it can make some things good. It can make situations calmer. Tyler talks about this a lot, like, if you can get a year where they're feeding, they're usually very comfortable, So a lot of times you can make very ethical, good clean shots. However, um, do you seem to like recognize that they are being fed a lot of times? You know? So, Um, maybe in a place like you see like on TV where um, you know it's fairly low pressure, a large track of land. Uh, you know, they come into the feeder like you're saying, and a lot of times Uh, honestly those around here do that, you know. But it's weird how bucks have a different mentality about things. Yeah, we have to, we feel like around here as far as feeding goes, Um, we hand feed for um. Like if you if you put up a feeder that throws automatically, you know, twice a day or something like that, which a lot of guys do, it's a lot easier on you. But um, you just don't see big bucks show up to those very often. Um So a lot of times what guys will do that are in the know kind of will they'll just throw out a couple of bags of corn and you know, put a trail camera over it. If there's a big deer in the area, then they'll just try to keep some corn there for a while. A lot of times us to eat it all. Yeah, yeah, that's that's another issue you know that we we do bad. I'd say this too, is that, Um, you know this is all privately in discussion. Tyler and I hunt probably seventy five public land maybe more here in Texas and uh on that baiting is out, so you pretty much actually hunt deer. Yeah, but yeah, I mean as far as like behaviors go, um and rattling and stuff, we hardly do it up here where we're from. Not that it hasn't worked before us before, but it's just it's such. I mean, what I like to tell people is where you're seeing the TV shows down in the brush country, Um, I can drive there, or I can drive into Illinois, you know what I mean. Like that's the same amount of time in different directions. So, um, it's to say it's a different region. It's it's basically a different country almost it's Mexico, you know what I mean. It's it's completely different. That's that's really I opening to think of it that way. So then my next question is, so why do you go to Illinois instead of going to the other part of Texas? Like why why believe the Texas the Glory Land, the lone Star state. And yeah, so that's a good point because we do have a you know, we have a tag. Our tags are here, you know, and it's a resident fee and everything. So um, but the reason is, um, I don't know. This is I looked a stat up years ago. I'm not sure how it ranks, but I'm sure it's very accurate still for the most part. But um, Texas when I looked this stat up, was the ninth largest. Um. Essentially, if you were look at all the countries in the world and their economies, we would be the ninth largest country in the world, as as the state of Texas. So I looked at it the other day. We've lost a spot, so we know. But the point is, like that money that comes out of Dallas and Austin and Houston and San Antonio and all the and you know, all the oil and stuff like that out west and and on the coast. That money translates into corporate leases, which, um, you know, if you're talking about the best hunting in the state down there where I'm talking about in South Texas, I mean, you're talking there are those are places that people have to die before you get a chance to hunt because they're these you know, I mean some of these places are you know, Jerry Jones is the guy that you know and his his his kids and grandkids get done or something, you know, like and they go once a year or whatever. But like that's the kind of money that we're dealing with. I mean, and just not obviously not everybody's high profile, but they have lots of money and so um. And then there's these big businesses that have corporate leases that um they get to you know, send twenty or thirty dudes out and and they they'll hunt it, you know, throughout the year and they coordinate all that through email and whatever else. You compare that with you know, a out of state o TC tag that's you know, toppy end sevens, you know, I mean, very top end the Illinois less than five bucks, you know, so heir that to you know, what it would take to get on a They do it by gun down there, you know, and you you do uh usually season leases and you know by gun is you know, thirty five is probably a steel nowadays, you know, on a spot. And you pair all that with the concept of to do all this within your state, you have to find private land to do it on, because you know, last I checked for like two point three percent public land access, like the accessible to hunting. I think there's four percent in the state. But and then of those, uh that two point three if you want to really get down and look at what you can actually go out in white tail hunt with archery or gun equipment, it's real low without drawing, and the draw system is you know, pretty stacked. Whereas you had to say a state in the Midwest that's over the count or you got your you know, Foord to Sitting hundred area, I guess you five dollar tag um and then you've got all this public property that you can go out and shoot giants on. You know. So you start doing a little map and it's like, maybe I should go do so you guys do still stick around a little bit and do that public land thing in Texas, which, uh, which does seem hard to do given there so little of it, but a lot of people probably that are interested in men. I know there's a ton of hunters in Texas. What's what are you doing different down there to actually make that work? Sometimes? Um, you know we've we've uh one thing that I would say that helps us to kind of I don't know, separate or whatever, just to um I try to be more efficient. Is um identifying plant life. Um, we do a lot of I don't know, we're both kind of nerds about gardens and stuff like that. So um, we can just walk through the woods and pretty much know you know, all the trees, especially here that we're seeing and what they do, what they produce. Um, how big the acren is, when the hogs or deer like to eat it, how long it's got around? What's this thing? Acorn acre acre and acorns acorns? Uh? Yeah, so you know there's different times a year that those cannons break down. Uh, even if they've been on the ground for a while, you know, deer won't mess with them until December or something. So like we kind of do do a lot of that, and then there's uh other times of the year outside of hunting that helps us to hang trail cameras, uh you know, preseason or whatever to learn what deer doing, um based off of what they're eating, whether that's common ragweed or cedar elm buds or whatever it might be. So like that's one thing I think we we use a lot to our advantage UM. And then you know, honestly, we've done this uh kind of map scouting digital maps scouting series we've done the last few years with on X that's um really just been almost like a practice session for us all summer, and so I think that's tremendously helped us to be able to read maps. Yeah, just go ahead. I was just gonna say, when you're looking and you're east scouting in this place you hunt in Texas, are you looking for anything? I'm assuming now, I know you've already kind of told me that each of these regions could be so different than the other, But I gotta believe the east scouting Illinois looks a lot different than East scouting Texas. No matter what part of the state, is there anything unique like from a step one east scouting standpoint that you're thinking, Man, there's this kind of feature that's really pretty unique to this area that you never would see in Illinois or Kansas or Michigan. But here, I know that these kind of brushy patches And by the way, you might hear chains on the background. I'm sorry about that, guys. We had a big tree come down and the guys that are helping with a little bit of this stuff just showed up. Um. But anyways, is there anything unique that stands out to you that's that's special down where you're at versus other places? Um, as far as maps gotting goes, I think it's more the way that we uh read our terrain some and I don't think it's unique to specifically where we're at, but it might be more of a southern deer hunter versus northern deer hunter type thing. We we have to we have to hunt deer a lot of times that aren't moving to heavy bed defeed type things because, um, where most of these public properties are that we hunt, they are old core of engineer properties or w M A S or whatever it might be. That's just in low lying areas that aren't good for any type of agriculture and if there is close agriculture, usually it's hay, which down here is coastal bermuda, which deer do not even care about, you know, So uh, A lot of times we're hunting deer that are on more natural movement patterns. So we're trying to find uh things that funnel movement, and that's probably pretty broad across the spectrum no matter what state you're in. But I think that what we end up hunting a lot of these creek bottom, river bottom type uh areas. Okay, and a lot of times I guess there's two things that I would think about. There's something that we really like the key on we call creek horns. I don't know, they might be called something you know somewhere else, but it's essentially a big bend in a in a riparian system, right, so uh, some people might call it a peninsula bow. Yeah, something like that. But just something that's going to you know, take whatever deer we're moving in large set area and make them have to kind of pinch down to go around the corner of that creek or river or whatever it may be. We we look for that a lot because a lot of times on these w maze and stuff you can. Yeah, there's enough hunters around that if you see a good looking pinch on the aerial is going to be a standard too there already, you know, so you have to find the stuff that's that's kind of unique to that situation. Yeah. We also, um use like secondary creek crossings a lot too, so off of because the creek system generally is a highway for deer. They're gonna move up and down this creek system a lot of times, and then they have to cross these secondary creeks that feed in these feeder creeks, and um, there is there are very specific points that they cross on these things sometimes. So if you can find that, it takes it takes boot scouting to find that for sure a lot of times. But that's a starting point. And um, you can usually find the secondary creek on the you you actually using like the uh the terrain top of the lines and stuff, and then you can walk that thing up and down and kind of find those secondary crossings or whatever. And uh, you know that's pretty good for for rut and even pre rutt stuff. But we also kind of have a technique that I think it's pretty unique for uh. Later season down here. Um all these properties get a ton of pressure, you know, as a lot of places do in the country, and um by you know, mid December, deer actually end up habitating in places that you wouldn't expect them to. And we have these these areas on these river bottoms that are mostly like um floodplain and it will be ash trees with like hardly any um vegetation on the on the forest floor. And it's because it's um underwater, you know, three or four months out of the year, and it's extremely difficult to hunt because all these trees are five six inches in diameter, and it's very monotonous and it's real hard to pattern deer and those deer just know that people don't like to go into that kind of stuff and hunt because it's almost impossible to a pick a spot that you think you'll be within thirty yards of a deer and also be find something a treat that's big enough to hang a saddle or a tree STANDI in. So I think that that's one of the things that's really kind of helped us with success in the past, is kind of identifying those places that UM hunters don't want to go that's an interesting point, another opposite example, but it's something that's a little bit unique to what I see. So there's there's finding these places the hunters wouldn't want to go. Then I also know you guys have had some success on the native vegetation that you mentioned where people would probably see it and think, oh, I should go here. So so what about persimmon thickets or something I've seen you guys take advantage of that. And that's something that I never run into up here, but I know you're seeing down there. Talk to me a little about that. Uh. So, per simmons are gonna be a early season food source most of the time. You'll find some. Tyler actually has one here that's a late dropper, which is gold if you can find one. Uh And it's actually kind of nice to hang a camera on one of those for seasonal data, even if you're not gonna go back, just to see when they drop. But uh, if you don't know what a persimmon is, it's uh, I can't remember the scientific name, but there and orange fruit that are about the size of a golf ball. They'll be green in the summer and they'll start to ripping towards the fall, and um, deer, possums, hogs, raccoons, everything just love them. And if you taste one that's ripe, they are actually delicious. But a lot of times us as humans, we can taste the tannins in them and they don't taste very good. But animals are a little bit less sensitive to that. So um, we've just found especially if you can uh find some later droppers that are kind of pre rut or or even in early November, that man, everything is in there. And what happens is it kind of creates like a a little hub of deer activity. It's not just a food source, but this is this is something you see in food sources across the board, right, Like there's food source staging where uh you know they want to go in there and eat the for simmons or eat the beans, eat the corn, whatever it might be, and but they don't feel quite comfortable or um, they know they can be in a certain area and it just ends up being an area like a social hub. Right. And we see that around for simmons a lot that we scrapes and rubs and just doze and bucks. Like last year, um uh we have antler restrictions where we live, so they have to be a certain with to uh to be able to shoot. And we had a book come in that was kind of right there bordering, and we decided to not uh in. In retrospect, it was maybe not a great decision, but it was the right one in the moment. You know, I kind of have a little bit of uh, what's that better safe than sorry? That's right, man, You know, you don't want to do anything uh illegal. But um, so it was really cool because we actually got to um just observe. I don't know, we had no win, so we kind of had like a rising thermal situation or something. It was. It was really weird. But the deer pretty much went all around us and never smelled us, and uh, I just got to see him come in and and um, we jokingly like to say run around. He read it around us a good thing, you know, but he was you know, making scrapes, rubbing on trees and uh smelling around. And then another younger buck came in from a different direction, and uh, he like walked over there and did a very interesting, quiet but prominent snort. We'se I don't know if you've heard that before, but in the Midwest, you know, I hear him just you know, and just blow the out. It was almost like he knew he was a three year old, so he didn't want to do too much, but he wanted to let this one year old know who was the boss of the the immediate area, you know. But it was just kind of cool to just see, uh, you know that interaction and how much can happen around a quality native natural food source like that. Yeah, and to to kind of relate that back to like an eat scouting stuff, uh, one way to find those and you you have to pair this up with like putting your eyes on this a lot of this stuff, um, that's how you become better at finding it on the map without having to go find it with your boots or whatever. But like basically, um, you know, on a lot of the stuff we hunt, we can use. These um per simmons will grow in the low lying areas and a lot of times in open areas. So if you've had places been cleared by the stay, a lot of times they are clearance cedars and burning woman stuff, and so they have these kind of little fields and stuff made um that are kind of going fallow and uh, you can find them. They're usually growing in thickets. They don't grow by themselves very often. They grow in thickets, so you can start to find those. If you find them with your eyes as well, then you can relate that to almost any map you look at. As they're saying this, something popped in my mind and it it kind of takes in another direction. But I gotta wrap my head around this. Do you guys, do Texas hunters identify as like being Southern deer hunters or do you feel like you're in a totally different category? So what I mean by that is, I mean, do you and a deer hunter from Alabama, a deer and from Georgia be like, oh man, those guys up in the Midwest are always talking about this stuff. It doesn't relate to us, but you know, we we all get each other. Do you have that or do you find yourself on a different island, um from other people down in the South and southeast. Yeah, there's they're a little bit of that, you know. Um we live we're like we're just pretty much in the South and the Southwest like where we're at. I mean, it's crazy, but like you know, like Fort Worth and all that is like a huge steakhouse country, you know, cattle drives, We got stockyards and Fort Worth like big big stockyards, you know. And and so like we kind of we actually as far as food goes, we live in a pretty awesome place. Killer Cajun food, killer Mexican food, killer steaks. You know. It's just we got the golf, you know. Yeah, it's it's like a good place. But we also are kind of like a mutt in that sense where we don't really completely relate to anybody. We kind of have this Southwestern vibe a little bit. And and uh, it's a little bit different where we're at directly, at least because we're not thick, thick, heavy pines. So it's a lot different than like Alabama or something like that. Maybe it's kind of like you have guys that will be like, oh, pro football is the best, and then somebody else, like college footballs with this. But then you get those college football guys to the side, and like you know, war Eagle versus roll Tide, you know what I mean. So, like I'm sure there's uh, there's some guys who would go back and forth about if South Texas or East Texas is better hunting, you know, but uh, overall we're all united and uh, you know, dogging on the Midwestern ver well, I think it's fun. Man, I don't I don't know, Uh I would say that kind of going back to one of the first things you said, Um, I guess uh as far as culture goes, I don't know if um I feel personally a whole lot of like that Texas pride or whatever when it comes to hunting here versus somewhere else, you know. And that's kind of why we travel around. Man. I just love dear. I love going and seeing new places and hunting deer in new spots, and it's cool to go to the Midwest and experience that and like Tyler jew Iowa and nine team right and like to goog go up there and just see everything that you've heard Bill Winky talk about your whole life about like how specific days matter and what happens you know, on this day versus this day. It's it's neat so important question then, which is better pro football or college football? Oh? Right up? College? All right, we can we can continue. That was the correct answer. But you're kind of the same about as us so like you don't have a lot to brag about with the lines, so it's like, you know, yeah, definitely college right, Yeah, yeah, definitely. We've had many, many better years in the college side. Uh what do you think about ut in Oklahoma going to the SEC? Oh? Man, um, it was we can make it our thirty second segment. So I went to A and M Texas A and M, which you you may know of. So for me, I'm like those followers, you know, But a little part of me, I'm not gonna tell all my friends, right, but a little part of me is kind of excited to get to play those games again. Yeah, it's gonna be interesting. It's can be very interesting. Okay, so out of the way and go Green Michigan State University. Uh, part what about what about this? Do you view is it easy when you come up to the Midwest, when you go up to Kansas or Nebraska or Illinois, do you view that as either this is a piece of cake compared to back home, or do you go up there knowing this is gonna be a big challenge, just a different kind of thing. And tell me that for you, for you individually, been also, I'd be curious if you have a sense of like what the general sense is from your friends or other people you know in the South when they come up, how do they view this? Um. I think that aspects of the Midwest are a little easier, and I think a lot of times that's uh just related to deer densities. Uh And because of where we live, we don't have a hot deered density. Now parts of the state are different than that. But outside of that, man white tail or white tail, I don't think that like a Michigan buck is any smarter than you know, put them on the same plane, right, like a five year old Michigan buck in a five year old Iowa buck. They're probably both really keen because God made them that way, right, they are made to be survivors. So um, you know, outside of that, you're gonna have a little bit of regionality where you have deer that have you know, had arrows fly past their head so they're looking up more than out, you know, stuff like that. But another thing that I find easier about the Midwest is that the deer are larger animals, so they lay down more sign uh. Rubs in particular, and trails are extremely difficult to find where we live because the deer just don't weigh a lot And I think that makes a difference as far as how much like what kind of pronounced trails you can see on the ground, and you compare that with here's another thing we run into a lot um. You can find a really great trail in the woods, and there's a really good chance that it's hawks where we live. So you and don't have that in the Midwest, which is actually really nice. You know. I don't get me wrong, I love to shoot them and they're great eating. But uh and I put the g on the into that for you, Mark, But because you don't uh uh, you know, you go up there and you find a good trail and you're like, oh, hot dog, you know, this is dear, this is cool. But at the same time, man, it's uh, you know, there's there's aspects of it that are more difficult. It's way colder where y'all are at, you know, like I ain't doing you know two ft about that, So I think that, uh, it's it's just fun to go see the differences. Well what do you yeah for me personally? You know, like I like um, I like to they're like you said, there's a challenge in late in leaving home and going somewhere else and learning these new plant types. And uh also even like the cultural dynamics that happened in the in within hunters. You know, like if you're hunting public land and your um, you know, there is some sort of aspect in the hunt of um other hunters affecting your hunt. So I don't want to say like you against other hunters necessarily, but like you have to understand what they're doing, what they like to do, you know. I mean there's there's uh different cultures. You know, there's different times of different seasons where like, um, if if a state has like a three day gun season, there's a chance that you don't want to be there during those three days, you know, because it's gonna be just a madhouse. But for us in Texas, we've got a two month rifle season, and UM, you know, basically after opening weekend, it's about the same amount of deer gun pressure from the until January, you know, And so UM knowing that, uh doesn't it doesn't you know, hunt in Texas doesn't affect my gun season, doesn't affect my plans really, and so UM there are things like that that I do like as a challenge when you go out of state, UM, that you have to kind of uh observe and figure out UM. And you know, I wouldn't say that the Midwest necessarily hunts UM necessarily easier UM. But but like Casey mentioned, with the sign being easier to see more pronounced, I think that UM hunting around here when you are able to to, you know, find sign and make your way UM and spend time out here doing that than when you go to the Midwest and these dear way you know, two and twenty two or fifty pounds, they're they're just making better sign and it makes things so much more easy. Another thing, lastly, I would say, is UM A lot of the country up in the Midwest A lot of times UM I think lends itself to bow hunting UH a little bit better because um, you've got less kind of big woods type atmosphere. I guess, for lack of a better word, we, like Casey mentioned, we have all these floodplains and stuff, and it's just so hard to get within thirty yards of a buck a lot of times, and or even a deer period, and so UM, I think a lot of times you've got these little shelter belts, You've got uh, these little sloughs where the farmer cutting, you know, till, and so you've got these small areas that deer kind of automatically just funneling through as they move through cover. That kind of helps. So I wouldn't I don't want people to think that, uh, we sit here and crack on people in the Midwest for all the time for having hunters between the lines between the yeah, I will say this, and the kind of uh kind of piggyback on the sign thing that Tyler is talking about. One of the things that can be difficult for us is that we show up and say Iowa, which is I mean, I think you drew this year, right, so, like you know, and you hunted. Therefore, sometimes the sign can be overwhelming because we're like we are like, oh man, a scrape. This is awesome where we live and you go up there, there's a scrape every teen yards on pinsline, you know, And you have to interpret that stuff and and actually uh make moves to understand that, Hey, I need to push you in further, I need to go to a different area. Or how fresh is fresh? Yes, exactly, yes, and is this is this getting laid down at night versus the daytime, and all these things, these factors that you have to play into. So I do think that there are even some specific challenges in what people think of is the happy hunting ground. You bring up something I want to get into, which was if there were and you kind of alluded to a couple there, I'd love to hear you dive into a little more. What I'm wondering is if there are certain general, general things that you are, general modes that you have to switch from when going from the South up to one of these other states in the north of the Midwest. Like I know, when I go from Michigan to Iowa, I'm going from a much higher hunting pressure state, too much lower hunting pressure state. So I always find myself being really paranoid about something in Iowa and then having to remind myself, okay, hold on, chillout. These dear act differently back home. You can get away with this thing or that thing. So I'm constantly needing to like put on a different hat when I'm in a certain place or when I'm going on like a Western white tail hunt, I gotta put on my Western white tail hunt glasses and look at things differently because there's just things that are different. Dear will act differently, or they'll react to things differently or whatever. So my my overarching question then is for someone coming from the south doing a traveling hunt up to Illinois or Kansas or Iowa, Ohio or whatever, or Michigan, have there been any other things like what you just described that are general rules, like hey, you gotta look at sign different or hey, you need to realize this. Is there anything else that can be helpful for people doing that first from south to north trip that they really need to keep in mind and do differently than back home. Outside of bringing all your clothes, you have to do that. But I think that uh, I would say vocalizations are a huge thing for me, and I understand that I haven't hunted all the state trick, so I don't know anything really about Michigan or you know, Minnesota or whatever, but like in some of the Midwestern states that I've been to, uh, deer vocalizations are a big thing and it's a thing that you can use. Whereas in Texas, man rattling works sometimes and then grunts and snort weys is I have had way more bad experiences than good, you know, so I would say kind of, uh up front, that's kind of the thing that I see for sure. I think you've got something that you thought of right away to the first thing I thought of was that if you ever hear anybody use over arching mark, it's because of you. Just so you know, I'm telling you. I hear people say all the time, like Dave that they got that mark Canyon. No, no doubt. I got a few of those things. I guess. Yeah, he made a shirt like that one time. Didn't you like all the sayings from the podcast? Yeah, yeah, we did. I think I think that that being said was the big one. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's funny, dude. Uh No, I mean to me, like, uh, that's definitely one of them. Is like getting away with more calling and stuff like that. Um, I would probably say that, like if I'm leaving uh and heading north. Um. Some of the things I'm thinking about are that there is a much more defined like casey A lived too earlier. UM, Like dates matter, and so for us, like a couple of years ago, we had a really big buck on public here in Texas that we got pictures of on February, I believe, and he's like fixing a breed of though no doubt. I mean she's standing like it's about to happen and so um, and that's not like something that happens here. I mean, it's not like we don't have a rut in February. It's not Alabama or something like that. You know, it's not a weird rut place. But the thing is we're just so we're just such moderate temperate weather that um, you know, there's such a long window of opportunity, and there's yearlings that are coming in I guess in February at some point, you know, and that that happening. So like when I go up to the Midwest, I think, man um it kind of like, for for instance, when I went to Iowa, we went in late October because we saw some weather patterns coming in in twenty nineteen, and it's snowed twice while we're on that trip. Um, it was real slow for much of that trip, like a seven or eight day trip, and when the snow came in and we just saw just bust loose, you know. But like that was also um October twenty nine or something like that. So, um, you know, I think that, uh, those dates are a lot more a lot more important. I guess, really what when it comes to rut action and stuff like that here in Texas at East, UM, what determines that more than anything is just when the heat stops, you know, and and the deer are comfortable running around more than anything. I feel like a lot of times, I think something that we've kind of keyed on in the last year really is understanding the pre rut phase that happens in the Midwest, because you killed a deer on that specific uh tactic in October last year in Illinois, whereas here where we live, and I'm I don't mean to say that it doesn't happen, but I just have not learned enough to understand, uh that there's anything in front of like a Texas rut outside of just deer doing complete pre rut stuff. I might be making sense, but like, for instance, we saw a cold front coming and you went to Illinois and killed a deer over a scrape on October twenty three, like within the first two hours of hunting, like we knew it was gonna happen. And in Texas, UM, you knew. I think you knew that was gonna happen. Did you really feel like that was gonna Like? I'm curious though, because, let me tell you, UH plays the ultimate always I'm optimistic. So the culfront actually hit here before it hits uh where Tyler was because I'd stay here and work. Tyler went up. I had a a nine month old at the time, so actually I was babysitting. I wasn't work and so I had I had the kids, so I couldn't go. Tyler went up there in the cold front here and I called him at about twelve fiars, like, dude, it's happening. You're gonna kill a giant. You know. We love to hype like that. You know, it's fun. I wasn't so sure. Tyler is a he's a realist, which is probably a good place to be. But yeah, you're aptimistic. I don't want to give you. I don't want to I'm learning to be yeah. Right, But so I I felt really good about it. And it was all about truck camera data, right. We had um actually gone up there in the summer and scouted some and UH found um what we would refer to as a hubscrape like a place that is perennial and even using the summertime, like the looking branches getting hit, right, So we we knew it was a great place to hang a camera. Hung a camera there fallow the trail camera data and kind of tracked you know, what bucks were around, and you know, as they moved closer to you know, having day activity. That's kind of when we knew it was time to get going. And then you made the move to go, right, Yeah, I mean one thing that was that I liked a lot is that the cold front came in during the day, so, uh, it gave me some time to or it gave me the opportunity to walk in in daylight for the afternoon hunt, as opposed to walking in in the dark and trying to figure out which tree to hang in. And you chose and you you got there though ahead of that, right, I mean, if I remember you, you just drove around that morning and and shows not to hunt so as not to blindly busting right exactly. Yeah, I figured I would just look kind of uh finding a you know plan B as well, and case I went in there and messed it up or something. But like, um, looking for I was just looking for a couple of things I was looking for. I was driving around, is I was marking um different types of eggs, so bean, corn, beans, corn, uh, and wheat, and that was what was in that area. And I was just marking that to know, UM, to see what deer were feeding in what type of agriculture and UM. I think at the time I was planning on if I had to hunt somewhere else hunting beans as opposed to corn um at the time because the corn hadn't been cut or something like that maybe. But yeah, I just drove around because I was like, man, the coul friends coming in about you know, one pm, I think that day, so it'd be better for me to go in with a good wind for one, UM, for my access and everything, even for hunting the scrape obviously, but um and then also that wind is noise cover and stuff like that too. So I'm you know, like we I was being aggressive but at the same time playing just playing a little bit concerned pervative, so that um, you know, I it just was it was working to where like this was this should work, you know, like all the variables line up if we just do it right here. So let's just be patient and wait when we call that something knowledgeably aggressive, knowledgeably that's what we've been saying lately at least. Yeah, so you know, and you probably know this two mark and you can probably speak to it some. But like when you go on these out of state trips, you you have a set schedule and it's a lot different of a mentality than being you know, near your home turf and having a season long you know, so you have kind of a internal ticker that's always going off and telling you, hey, three days, hey, two and a half hunts, you know, three more sets, whatever it might be. So you have to um meteor that you have to you the way we approach things, uh. And I hate to say we because we're individuals, but you know, are hunting styles fit together really nicely. But um we uh, we approach things with knowledgeable aggression. So like we make the most aggressive move that we can make make sense in our heads, you know, Uh, we hardly ever just bust off in there and just see what happens, you know what I mean. It's just not the way, not the way we do things. You know, we don't do a lot of observation sits you know, but like if the wind is completely wrong, we're gonna find somewhere else to hunt because we might be able to kill something in a different spot. Or if the wind is a just off wind, we can't really get where we want to be. We're gonna as close as we can without you know, bumping the deer that way. Like just entire situation, right, You just decided to drive around because you knew you could gather intel that would help you maybe the next day. But you knew that evening was going to be an A plus sit. So there's no reason to go take a C minus sit in the morning when you know you're gonna have a plus in the evening in the same location. I think it's important also to note that, like when we go out of state a lot of times, we don't have a target deer most of the time. So you know, if you had a target deer in mind, you'd want to be a lot more conservative than what we're talking about probably right now, you know, And I think you know that as well as anybody because you've hunted some definitely lots of targets over the years, you know, which is cool. And I'm sure you're also a little bit irritated at the time. There's pros and cons. Yeah. Um so that Illinois hunt that was public land, right, yes, sir. So My question then is how how did hunting pressure factor into this at all? Like? Why why was that huge eight pointer in there? And there was another nice buck I think that came in store at the same time when you had that buck in underneath you and there was some other little buck that came and hit that scrape and you had trail camera videos of this big wide buck. Why was this spot such a honey hoole? Why weren't there other people and they're doing the same Darren thing you were trying to do. I can make some hypothesis as to why. I don't know for sure because this is the first year we hunted that place. Um we I think for one, um Casey is built like a hog a little bit, and so uh it's a clarified um. He does not mind going through brush and just getting ticks on him and stuff like that, you know, like he just he'll just bust through anything, you know, So you just at front and then just thall behind. That's it. And so he just eats spiderwebs and stuff and Uh he found. Yes, yeah, you do, Uh for sure. Um, he's awesome, awesome. But anyway, we we're going through kind of just making this pass, you know, on this property and kind of really skirting a big agg field that ended up being a cut wheat field in the summer, so it was kind of like not a whole lot of benefit at the time, but we were in there, so we went, we're finding some rubs and stuff. Well he finds his scrape, and um, we realized that it's being it's being used, you know. And I think that this scrape was in a spot that you know, Casey found because he's a fullback, you know, like and dudes just don't want to go busting through brush and that kind of thing. So I think that there's an aspect that this scrape hadn't really been found by anybody yet. Um. And it's also set in kind of a um I don't know, Uh, the spot wasn't like when you look at maps of this place, Um, it's a lot of acreage, and you know, I don't think that you would pick this spot out of all the spots that you you would find on this you know, because it's just not it's mostly agg fields. Um, it's kind of an out of the way, um little strip in between agg fields. And you know it's far enough in as well. Um, you know it was there's a little bit of elevation, at least for us, maybe not for other people, but um, you're kind of walking up and down a little bit and kind of some ridge ridges and hills and stuff. And it's about six it's like six hundred fifty yards I think is when I measured at straight line, you know, so it's getting close to that half mile distance. Um. And for a lot of guy is man when you're talking about you know, early season kind of warm, I don't think they're wanting to walk in too far and get after it too hard until the run a lot of times. So I don't know that maybe those are some of the factors that led to nobody having discovered this. Yet there's something else that I know you've mentioned the past, um, is that you had the flexibility to actually hit up there and do this hunt on a weekday, whereas especially in October, you know, guys are using their rutcation dates in November. The only opportunity they have to really go in October is on weekends. You shot the steer on a Friday, Thursday, Thursday. I shot him on Thursday, and I drove around the next day on Friday because I had a buddy that was up there hunting with me, and um, I was just driving looking fields for him, you know. And there was a lot more people Friday afternoon than there was, you know, when I hunted on Thursday. So definitely it was a difference. You know. That's a great point. So what about another example for you? For you, Casey, you were hunting public lamb buck and I think it was Kansas. Is that where you killed your big big buck last year? Is that question? Is it? Maybe it's purposeful. He didn't label it, so if you don't want to tell, you don't have to. It was Kansas. It was in Kansas. It looked like a Kansas type of hunt. Uh. So you were you were hiking in there and you were saying that your head into this spot that looked good or something, and then you'd pass some ladder stands on your way in and the sign was actually getting worse. But for some reason you picked up this spot, uh, and you end up having this great, big, old, tight, tall ten point giant come in YadA, YadA YadA and killed him. Awesome. Why was he in there? Why weren't other hunters in that spot mucking that thing up? Why did that work out from a hunting pressure, that's the standpoint. That's that's a good question. I don't say that sarcastically as I mean that. Uh, you know, and it sounds like you watched that video, so thanks for watching, man, But that was only on that whole hunt, you know. So, Um, I'd see a possum about four thirty and then of like giving in it, you know. So it's tough, and I was the whole time. I'm Mr Optimist is even second guessing himself, you know, like it's just right deal. But I would tell you, um the reason. Uh and and this is counterintuitive to the advice I would give on a normal basis, So I guess you have to kind of interpret this how you will. But um, I looked at the map and got a broader picture, and I knew by the way, dear act in that area is you know, kind of Western Midwest stuff. Is that? Um? You know, food sources are everything because it's arid, right, so when you're wheat, they live and die by it. Out there, right, So I knew being close to that winter wheat is going to be more important because I killed that dear on November twenty three, okay, which is still definitely within the month of November. So deer or rutton and even on beyond that, you know, I think that, um, yeah, rut dates matter, but um if bucks or anything like people, they have things on their mind a lot of times, you know, so uh, But at the same time, I had to interpret the situation. Uh what matters more this sign that I'm seeing or that food source that's over there, And I think that what was going on is that, um, that buck was cruising for late Estrus does, and all the sign I was seeing on the way in was rutt sign. And that's all well and good if it's November eight and they're just in their raging, But that deer is cruising for for late November does, and those does are by all means going to that winter wheat at that point, that is where they're gonna live. You know, they're gonna go over there and eat. Now. I didn't see any that evening, but I couldn't see all the you know, I'm on public and you just can't see all the egg field, right, but I think that's what he was doing. I think that he was cruising up and down the thicker habitat um waiting or trying to smell a late estres dough and uh, in that moment, I made a decision that helps me inevitably kill that buck. Was it the right decision ten times out of out of ten? Maybe not? But um, it did work out that time. You know. I think that it's funny. Um, You hear a lot of people talk about making good choices and making right decisions, and even those guys are only making the right choice two percent of the time, you know, and most of us are it will do will do good to you know bad? You know barely, you know, the tenth of a percent or whatever it might be. You know. So, But in that scenario, I think what really helped was to instead of zoom in and try to find specific trails, which I did that as well. I found a that if you watch that video where the deer ends up jumping the fence onto private Um, all right, that was the trail that I had seen on the map and decided that would be a good place to set up because it was kind of in a corner of a winter wheat field. Um, but you know, on the broader picture, it was the idea of where was the best food within a couple of square miles and that's where it was. So h yeah, I think that was kind of what led to that deal. As a heck of a buck. That certainly was ever And uh I love it because uh I don't have a lot of mounts. That's that's actually the first year i've ever its shoulder mounted. And M really happy with it. You know, it's just beautiful to be able to have something like that to hang in your house. And I've got a year and a half old and We're sitting the recliner and we'll be rocking or whatever and he'll point up and go, d you know, No, it's just the coolest thing. You know. I know you're a fellow, you kind of understand. Man, It's it's awesome. Yes, that's the best. Uh So I want to I'm gonna pose something, and I want to make sure you guys both know this is a safe space, all right. You're in the trust tree, and and any answers to these questions cannot this cannot be used against you. Okay, So whatever you're about to tell me cannot be used against you or held against you anyway. All right, you both understand, Yes, sir, we're with you, so we'll give I'm gonna throw the fullback under the bus first, Oksey, you're up first. All right, let's go big. If there was one thing that Tyler could do to be a better deer hunter, Like if you could change one thing, like right now, tell me you gotta do this different, you gotta do this better, you gotta fix this thing you keep screwing up. What's that one thing it would be that you would tell Tyler? Um you sure this is a trust and be detailed detailed? Yeah, man, you might have should have prefaced me a little bit on this because we might have already ironed all this out. You know, we've been hunting together like four or five years. So um no, but I can think about it. Um so. Uh. Tyler is a very pensive person. He spends a lot of time thinking about things. Uh, and this is why we hunt together. Well, I don't. I I am a go with your gut, make observed A I process things very fast. That's not always a good thing though. Um. But this is about Tyler. It's not about me right about my faults. So Tyler sometimes will get a little bogged down in a decision when uh, and this isn't often right, but that that is something that can affect his hunt. And I think you probably agree, Um, it's it's in Um. Sometimes it's time to just be an Indian and make some choices and go after it. Which it sounds very cliche, but there there are times like that, like you just have to live and buy, live and die by the situation, you know. And I would say that, Um, Tyler has worked on that and is is really good at it now, but that's still something that you you struggle with. He's she's not in his head. He's just trying to think about something mean to say me. Alright, yeah, so now let's let's flip it around. How do you feel about the description. I think it's hilarious because the first thing that the first thing I was thinking is Casey settles sometimes with a spot and it worked out in Kansas, you know what I mean? But like, um, I will stand So I actually killed a buck. I haven't released the video yet, but um, I killed a buck on public and Kansas as well this past year and I, UM, I walked past a bunch of good sign and then walked back to it. And maybe I learned something from Casey's hunt. I don't know because I killed this year late late and um in the late season. Yeah, and so UM, I walked past this spot and got in there and started thinking. And the wind wasn't like I wanted it, and like so many things, you know, just analyzing everything, and I'm I'm thinking, and like if a camera dude was with me at the time, he would have been thinking I was crazy. You know, I'm just sitting there staring at the ground pretty much thinking. Know. Yes, I know your podcast a lot, so uh, you know we've been listeners, are you you for a long time? You know you've you've had a podcast for a long time, and you you have a great product, um, And we've kind of drawn some similarities in your personality and Tyler personalities. You are a lot of lots of things. UM. So it sounds like a bunch of some good stuff. Tyler. I really like what you're describing here. Yeah, you think Casey's terrible? Were going to ask him the same questions, so, UM, I would say, like you know me, I'm sitting there thinking, thinking thing and I finally go back to the better sign that I saw found. I knew that looking on on the map that um there was a creek crossing there or whatever. So I put all this stuff together and think about it, and a lot of times I'll get to the spot and I'll spend another twenty minutes thinking about which tree I need to be in, you know, And Casey's just like he just let's do that, you know. And it's and like he said, like, I think that that balances me out pretty well when we're hunting together. Um, you know, both of those characteristics. So like, it was just hilarious because the first thing I thought before he ever answered was that sometimes he is just like, oh, yeah, this is gonna work. We're gonna kill you, which is funny because um, uh, I feel like, uh, Tyler is never the guy who would like leave home without his bow. And that is a dent. Was it two years ago? I don't remember. One year I was glassing a place. We were in separate areas, and uh, I got out. I thought I was gonna make a stalk on do your decided not to got back in the truck put it reversed and then saw my bow in the reverse camera. I was about to run it over right. And that's just Tyler would never be moving fast enough for that to happen, you know. That's and that's that's the difference of us. And I think that honestly, man, Like, Um, there is a very much a a loner mentality or a a lifestyle or mantra that people have in white tail hunting specifically. Um, And I think that not that some people don't function will and I'm not criticizing them, but I don't want to understate the importance that I feel having a quality hunting partner, not just buddy, but just somebody that you really can rely on and that kind of helps you make better decisions and helps you go on hunts, and just somebody to really deep dive in the thought process with, you know. Like that's just it's been valuable for Tyler and Eyes is like we've you know, become closer and better friends and hunting partners that we can just bounce these ideas off of each other. And UM, I can't tell you how many times I was like, oh, man, look at the spot on the map. You know, at like eleven PM or whatever one lad been and Tyler was like, yeah, but what about your Like how are you gonna access it? And I'm like, oh, that's right. Yeah, there's like really hardly any way to get there, you know, but uh yeah, I really see a lot of value in that for sure. Yeah. Yeah, So I gotta be fair. Uh and and give you a chance to send a blow my way. You've heard the wire Dump podcast over the years. You you've maybe heard me discuss what I do and how I do things enough times that something has stood out to you where he said, mark you want Have you ever screamed at the radio and said just stop doing that or do this? Is there anything that you need to get off your chest? Now? This is your chance we both get to go right. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah you can both if there's that many. Man, you seem like a sand guy, and I don't want to like just you know, teach your horn for you anything, but um I would say I have a funny one and then actually a hunting one as well. Uh if it's safe space, right, safe space? Yes, I think as Texans when you say balance and challenge or egg, I gotta tell you the story you might know this guy. Uh hes he works with you. Yeah, so, uh, Garrett Long, Garrett Long. We were about to eat supper with him one time and he was talking about egg fields and I literally had no idea what he's talking about. It's you know, egg like with a but I mean I had the blankets look at my face and Tyler. Tyler saw me and had to tell me he's talking about, you know, like agriculture. But do we really like that? I'll over emphasized it for sure. Field hag field. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's good. And I don't keep working on that and you need to beat you ye, for sure. But it's just funny as a Southern like it sticks out for sure. But and I think you've addressed this too, man, and I appreciate that. But I think that, um, you've struggled with pre shot buck fever. So yeah, and I think and I don't know because I haven't hunted with you, um, but I think that you've kind of addressed that. But I think you'd recognize that that's a problem you've had two, Is that right? Yeah? Definitely definitely something I struggled with and had my moments and work in progress still right, I mean always. I mean it's cool to get excited, man, you know, like that's not It's not a bad thing by any means, you know, but uh, it just you gotta make sure it doesn't impede um you in your goal. You know, absolutely absolutely what's next? Uh if I had to, if I do I have to say one? You know you don't have to, but if something, if something came to mind, you couldn't time to throw me into the display to Actually you're the only way to meeting Yeah, I was. I was just wondering if I had to say one, because there's a lot of them. You can you can, you can set it out, or we can we can just move on. Yeah, let's let's move on. Man. I I thank you. Okay, Casey's gonna here we go. Uh, I would say, uh kind of in the same boat as me. Sometimes what Casey thought about me, at least as the analysis print paralysis, UM, I thought, you know, just sometimes just like you know, you obviously this stuff is such a passion for you, man, and and you've been doing it for so long. You just you know, you want to make big decisions and make them right. And uh, sometimes uh, that's a tough thing to do, man, because there's so many variables and you have time. It's not like, you know, like in a football game, you just kind of like either you throw it or you don't, and it's either picked off or it gets caught for touchdown ors and in complete, you know. So it's a little different with deer hunting. You you make most of the time until the bucks right in front of you. You're making decisions that you kind of have some time to make, you know. I wonder if it would be this is this is the only a weird nerd like me would ever think of this. But I wonder if you put like a self imposed time restriction on your decisions. So it's like every time I got to spotting, like I gotta pick a tree, and I might sit there and do what you're talking about, Tyler, and like debate back and forth this and that. I need to just have like a an app ready to go on my phone at all times. Okay, decision time, and I hit that button. I've got five minutes and I have to make a decision in those five minutes. I wonder if that would help. The issue would be once you get into your tree, you sit there for hours thinking about how dumb you are. Decision very very true, a lot of self loving Yeah exactly. Yeah, but uh, Mark, I do think that after a mean to you, it's probably good for us to be nice to you. Um. I think what's cool is that like even through your you know, your media outlets that you have it, we have seen the growth in the change you know, you've you've taken steps and done things to address things that you've had a hard time with, you know, And I think that all of us, um, self evaluation is huge man. Like, as a hunter, you have to be able to self evaluate. You have to be able to not just leave a hunt and say, well I didn't get one. You need you know? Why is the question? Yes? Why? And this is all relative, right, Like, if your goal is to go out and just have an opportunity to go hunting, then maybe you don't need to do that. But if your if your goal is to go out and become a better hunter, then I think that, uh, you know, for sure, you need to be able to self evaluate, um and not be too proud to know your own flaws. Yeah. Another thing that I like about you, Mark is and I'm really just have I appreciative of what you do and that you have a big voice, because I think that you're very solid um solidly in the middle, like understanding of different uh mentalities and different thoughts in different ways of hunting, and obviously a proponent of conservation man, and just you know, getting people involved, um, you know, speaking to the experts and speaking to the guys who also you know, are new to this. But I really appreciate and I'm glad that you have a big voice because uh, you do a really good job. Man. I do appreciate you guys saying that. And I didn't I didn't pay him to say this. Guys, everyone else listening, this wasn't pretty planned. You can yeah you can't. Could we have PayPal take a sound clip? And uh and on that note, it is time to wrap it up. So where where can people go to see all the stuff you guys are doing. It's uh, it's good stuff. I've enjoyed it, and I'm glad we've got to have this conversation. So everyone that's listening to this and enjoyed it is gonna want to go see these big giant bucks that you're finding out there and secretly chasing down in secret states. So what where can they find it? Yeah? Sure, man, so um our podcast is the Element Podcast, and that's kind of uh uh similar to a lot of podcasts where you have a weekly show and then we have some special things we do that are more intensive when it comes to like map scouting or we do have a false series called Big Bug Breakdowns where we do storytype stuff. But hopefully you'll be on that this year. Man, if you shoot a big buck, we'll have you on. Sign me up. Yeah. And then uh, we have you know the social media outlets that everyone hates to love, you know, Facebook, Instagram. All that is the Element Wild dot com. Funny enough, the Element was taken, so we had to add the Wild on the then and then yeah, the website, yeah, the the Element Wild dot com is is our You're at the Element Wild. I guess I got that. Yeah, yeah, sorry, it's all yeah, unfortunately the Element Wild because we don't have twenty grand to spend on the Element dot com, you know. Yeah, and then uh, our YouTube channel, Tyler is actually our master YouTube expert. He's a he's a great video editor and does a really good job on that. So if you just search the Element or the Element Hunting on YouTube. You'll be able to find all the hunts that we've discussed today and some others as well. I would advise not going back too far because it gets real weird. I feel the same way about my old stuff too. Yeah, thank you guys for taking the time to chat this is This has been fun, and uh, I definitely want to circle back with you after the season or mid season or something and see how all this is going for you. Sure, absolutely, Mark sounds great, man. I hope you have a great dear Season'd appreciate it. Right back at you, all right, And that's a rap for us today. Definitely check out what these guys are doing on YouTube, check out their podcast. It's all good stuff, lots to learn from. So until next time, appreciate your listening. Best of luck. If you've got a hunting trip coming on up, if you're heading out to go chase Western critters, or have an early season late August or early September opener for white tails, shoot straight, have fun. It's here. The good stuff has arrived. One white tail season is kicking off and I couldn't be more excited. So good luck out there, have fun, and until next UM, stay wired to hung MHM