00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number four oh three, and today we're kicking off a new series in which we're diving deep into specific types of habitat with a roundtable of experts. And today that's hill country habitat and we're talking with Andy May, Joe Elsinger, and Justin Wright. All Right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X. Today we're kicking off a new series in this series is all about getting into the nitty gritty details of specific types of habitat across the country. If you were to look across the country, you can kind of bucket certain parts of you know, the deer hunting world. Within these these I guess, for lack of better world categories, you've got hill country, like what we're talking about today. You could say we've got agricultural land. You could say there's big woods habitat, there's swamps, there's mountains, there's open country. There's all these different types of ground we might spend our time hunting deer, and each one of these different locations and types can be found really in different parts of the country, but each of them requires a different set of ideas and skills and information and and even hunting philosophies. And so what we're trying to do over the next I don't know how many weeks it's gonna end up being, but we're going to get a collection of experts on these topics together to talk through all the different things they think about when it comes to these specific kinds of places we hunt. And this was inspired by my buddy Andy May. If you listen to the podcast, you know Andy. He's he's one of the very best deer hunters in the country. I'm convinced of that, and he does it all. D I y a lot of public land of private land by permission, and he he is one of these guys who I frequently looked to for inspiration or guidance. And and the interesting thing is that he came to me with this idea saying, hey, man, I am trying to learn more. This is one of the best guys out there in the world, saying I'm trying to learn more. And the way he was trying to learn more. It was by pulling in these groups of people who he viewed his experts on these topics and picking their brain. And so we got to think, and what if we did that, but instead of it just being, you know, on a phone by ourselves, what if we share that with everybody out there. What if we share that with all the deer hunters out there that are probably curious about the same thing. So I tasked Andy with coming up with the people he wants to hear from, the people that he views as being the most likely to teach him something new about each of these different habitat types. And then we set out to schedule these conversations and to get these groups of people together where each one of us can share our ideas and then balance ideas off each other, maybe argued from perspectives, maybe agree, maybe not. Today we're starting that, and today, as I mentioned, it's hill country. We've got Andy kind of leading the discussion. I'm sitting in as uh as ah, I don't know, steering the bus as we go kind of character. And then we're also joined by Joe al Singer and Justin Wright, and I have Andy introduced these guys here in a minute, so you can learn more about why he views them as the right expert to talk about Hell Country hunting. But I just gotta say, this is a riveting conversation. And yeah, I know when this episode is coming out, it's January, a lot of us are maybe taking a little time away from deer hunting. But now is the time to learn. Now was the time to be thinking. Now is the time to be planning for the next hunting season. And I think this conversation, if it does anything like what it did for me, it's gonna give you that kick in the butt to jump right back into it. And uh, I'm pretty excited about that. So with all that out of the way, I will just uh let you get right into it. I hope you enjoy it. And here we go with my conversation with Andy May, Joe Elsinger, and Justin right all right with me on the phone. We have got kind of the if you were, if you're if you're a superhero fan, you like those Marvel movies, imagine the Avengers of the deer hunting world. We've got Andy May, Justin Wright, and Joe Elsinger on the phone with me. I might be you know that character. If you have you've ever seen these movies, Samuel Jackson is the guy that I don't even know what his name is in the movies, but he's just kind of the guy that says, you do this, what do you think about this? And then he sits back in the office and lets them all do the fighting. That's kind of my role here tonight. So so what I wanna do? Um And and rather than do the whole like introduction thing that we do on a lot of podcasts, I don't think I'm gonna do that as normal because there's there's four of us and there's so much good stuff to talk about. UM. I want to begin with you, Andy, because you and I were having a conversation the other day, and the conversation is what sparked us doing this podcast, and I'd love to get you to explain that a little bit more. You were saying, I remember I was pacing back and forth in my living room as we were talking. You're stressing me out so much without you're saying, because you're saying, man, you know, I just feel like I've never been more frustrated in a hunting season than I was this past year. And I'm thinking to myself, Andy, you had one of the most successful hunting seasons like any normal person could ever ask for. You killed three or four really impressive mature white tail box, he killed a giant mule dere and still you were sitting here focusing on how can I get better? How can I learn more about this terrain? How could I figure out what to do in this kind of situation or this kind of situation. And you were telling me how you were, you know, reinvigorated and just chomping at the bit to get better, to to talk to more people, to get more ideas, and I it was it was, I don't know what it was. It was. It was maybe inspiring or maybe it made me hate you just a little bit more that you were going to get even better than you already hard And so what I what I wanted to just can you can you explain like where that? Can you explain your mindset after the season you have had and where you are now that has led you to pulling people like this together to have in depth conversations. How how did you get here? Andy? Why why do you think this way? Well? I think I kind of always I've always had that mindset I know, I've mentioned it in a lot of podcasts. You know, I think when I really think about my goal, you know, my main goals as a deer hunter is UM, I just want to I would just want to become the best hunter that I can be UM. And I always have. I've always had that real strong drive to learn in UM, seek out information from guys that I think are more knowledgeable than me and more skilled than me. UM. This year, I I'm not I'm I'm not asking anyone to feel sorry for me, but it's just how I feel this year. I did have some great success I had some phenomenal hunts UM, but I made some really key mistakes on some really big deer this year UM that have really left up a bad taste in my mouth. I take I take UH failure pretty hard. I Mean, the successes are great, UM, but when I fail at something that I did wrong or that I should have done that I could have done, man, those really stick with me. And I don't know, I guess it's just the way I'm wired. But there was a couple, I don't know, just a couple of situations and hunts and and times throughout the season where I just felt real frustrated. UM. You know, I had four great hunts, but I hunted more than I ever did this year, and there was a lot of time in between those and around those where you know, I felt, I don't know, I felt like I was really struggling and UM just not I wouldn't say lost, but I just felt like I wasn't on top of my game, I guess. And you know, none of us are going to be, you know, deadly a percent of the time, but you know, it does get a little frustrating with the majority of your season, you feel like that. I haven't felt like that in quite a while. I certainly have moments, but I guess I came out of the season, UM, not liking that feeling. And you said it best. I just felt, UM, I guess re energized to really really try to improve some of these areas that I feel uh I could improve in, UM and one of the areas UM that I certainly felt competent in, but I wouldn't say My confidence is the highest. UH is in hill country, UM, and I've been hunting more and more of that. I really like the hills. I feel I'm I feel like I'm maybe a little above average. But I know a couple of guys that I mean, as far as I'm concerned, there two of the best hill country guys UM in the country. I'm I know there's guys out there that we don't know. I'm sure they're not gonna agree with that, But I mean, I know deer and I know deer hunting, and I don't deer hunters, and these guys are some of the best. And they're not only some of the best deer hunters, are just some of the best guys. Um. They're consistent, they're d i y guys like like me. Um, they hunt a lot of pressured land. UM. I don't know. I just look up to him. And we're lucky enough to have both those guys on here now. So uh. The first guy, Joe L. Singer. UM. A lot of people you know Joe. He's been on a few podcasts. He's kind of a legend on the hunting Beast. Um Man. Joe is just he's just one of those guys that when you hear about his season and the way he hunts, UM, it kind of makes you feel like you don't know a whole lot. Um. He's just he his his hunts are very detail oriented. They're almost um they almost that he almost like engineers them in his mind with the way his setups are in the conditions and he takes so many things into account. And I just really admire the way he hunts and the way he goes about his hunts because it's a it's a little different than me. Um, we have some similarities, but uh, he just he just takes it to a whole new level, I think with his efficiency and I just he's just a guy that I've always learned from and I've always I've been fortunate enough to become friends with him and keep in contact with him, and I'm just really thankful for that because I've learned a lot from him. Um. The other guy on on the episode today is Justin Wright, who again another hunting beast guy. Um Man probably one of the most deadly guys I know. UM, a straight d I y hunter and he just every year, Um, he just kind of leaves me in awe with what he does on such limited time. Both these guys kind of like myself, maybe even more so definitely this year. UM. I mean these are family guys. These are guys that you know, don't hunt big leases. They don't hunt you know, big family farms. It's a it's a mix of you know, pressured private ground and in public and they travel around a different chunks and they're just as deadly as they come, and they're super efficient. So they're they're family men first, they're good guys first, their humble, but on such limited time they do things that just almost don't seem possible. And both of their specialties I think they're probably deadly just about any situation, but both their specialties are our hill country. And I just feel real fortunate to have them on this episode so that we can all kind of dive into their minds a little bit and learn. Um, it should be a good one. Yeah, Well, I'm I'm feeling the same way. I'm I'm excited. And these are the three of you are all three folks who all of us can learn from me, especially Um. I always feel like with Joe, he's he's of all the different Maybe not everyone, but if I can look at a lot of different people's hunting styles and the way they go about things, I see the way that Joe approaches it and his his analytical mindset. It seems very much like what I want to be, like what I what I try to get to, but I inevitably fall into these circular, circular arguments with myself that send me down different rabbit holes. And and one not of five times I pull it off right. But I feel like every time I get a chance to talk to you, it's going to it's gonna help me get a little bit closer to that goal destination. And and justin, I'm excited that we finally get to talk. Uh, and he has been talking to me about getting you on the podcast for a long time now, so I'm glad it's happening. And um, and I'm gonna kind of play, like I mentioned, I'm gonna kind of sit in the background a little bit and and maybe kind of play the audience member. I'll let Andy be the host. I'll let him drive the ship. He'll be the school bus driver, and I'm gonna be the kid in the back sea of the bus, the kid that's I'm not necessarily gonna be looking out the back window waving at all the other cars. But I will kind of let you guys have this conversation because I know Andy's wanted to have these talks with you guys in more detail, and I'm gonna listen in and when I'm confused by something, or if I hear something that I think other people might be wondering more about, or if you really get my curiosity going, I'll jump in. UM. But otherwise I want to kind of be a fly on the wall and just sit here, sit here in the circle of legends, and see what we can get into. So Andy, let's let's scratch your itch. Where do you want to start? Where? What are you dying to know from these guys to be in this conversation about hill country? All right, Well, let's just start with something that's kinda pretty basic. UM. This is this is what I do when I'm going into a new piece of hill country. When I'm looking at the topo maps, UM, I look for UM ridge systems. I call them dynamic ridge systems. I don't know if that's the right term, but I look for ridge systems that have a lot of terrain features, a lot of points jutting off in different directions. UM saddles benches. The more terrain and the more dynamic it is, the better UM. And those are the ridge systems that I'm kind of drawn to. And I tend to stay away from the ones that are more long um less points maybe you know, maybe just off that beIN ridge, maybe just one or two you know, secondary points. And I guess I've never really been told that that's a good or bad thing, but I wanted to get your guys opinions on that approach, UM, and maybe what if you could dive into what what you look for? If you're starting from scratch, you're going to a whole new piece of hill country, and uh, what you look for? So let's start with you, Joe, Yeah, than Sandy. UM. First off, thanks Mark for having us back on UM noise. Let's say that for justin to this should be a good conversation. But yeah, you're you're definitely feel flattered by your your guys descriptions. UM, maybe we can dive into some of the failures I've had this year, because I had some pretty good luck. But I have to admit that when um Andy described this season as you know, kind of focusing on what went wrong, I have that similar bank set where I royally screwed up a couple of times and and it bugs the economy. So definitely does not go right all the time. Or even most of time for me. So um, but anyway, c civic to this. So yeah, UM, all else being equal, and it really is, uh, the more rugged the ground the better in my opinion. It's just you know, the more terrain features you have, the better, um, hill country. UM, you know, but you don't get that often you can't you know, UM, you might have really you might be hunting properties that are really steep and rugged rugged, or you might be hunting properties that have just gentle rolling hills that funnel the deer way less aggressively. Um. And then um, you know, and some of the gentle hills you have to deal with. Really the the deer move more according to cover than terrain. Um. There's kind of a there's kind of a point where you know, when it becomes the hill has become so steep that the deer have to work going up and down them. That's when the terrain seems to be the dominant um factor and how deer move. And then when it's a little flatter, I couldn't tell you a slope, I couldn't tell you an elevation. UM. It's kind of case by case. We should think of it like that, where the flatter hills. UM, you know, you kind of have to focus more on the cover and additions, et cetera. UM, and the steeper stuff transitions can still be important, but terrain becomes the driving factor for how they move. UM. So yeah, I like points and saddles and UM, you know crows feet ridges where a whole bunch of points come together. That's one of the key areas that I would focus on. You know, when you have a whole bunch of secondary points come together, that's often a really killer area. UM, if the cover is reasonably good conducive for you know, betting on those ends of those points. UM. Benches are another thing, and it Benches are a thing that UM, I think our predecessors long ago kind of realize that wildlife travel on benches and bed on benches. But I don't hear much discussion about benches UM and current hunting community. And they're kind of hard to spot on a TAPLE map. You know, they're just where the contours gets based out a little bit. On the side hills, you have contours that are all stack tight. You know, you show the steep slope and makes the base out and make it tight again. Lots of bench, um, and deer bed on them and they travel on them. So the bigger the hills, they really like those benches, um, some of the three four hundred foot bluffs that I hunt, and they they I really spot those benches and don't seem like you know, the secrets out now talking about it, but don't seem like very many hunters try to hunt those. The wind can be dicey, but there's ways to you know, um hunts on those benches. So yeah, I guess that's a quick summary of where, um, how how I kind of look at it. Um. They basically similar to you Andy that the more more train features the better usually, Um, that really final deer. Yeah, it's interesting. Um, that's what I look for now. Um. But my first year hunting Iowa, UM, I was hunting hill country and I was on a ridge that had it was a CRP field on top, so they had an opening on the top that was good cover. It probably wouldn't hunt the inside corner, right I did. Yeah, but this ridge, this ridge was very long, UM, didn't have a lot of points uh coming off of it, so it was kind of you know, it lacked a lot of features. But on the end of that long point, um, just kind of a long, narrow point without much going on, was to this day the biggest typical buck um I've ever seen in Iowa. And it was interesting, you know. I mean, like now, I don't draw a lot of tension to those types of ridges, uh for some reason. But I did see a real big but I didn't see a lot of deer, but I did see a real big buck betted on the end of that. Yeah. And length the length of a ridge system. So if you're right hunting other times a year, you know de aren't moving as far. But rot um, those long ridges are megafunnels. You know, deer bucks are running up and down. So if you've got a ridge that system that's half a mile long or more and you can get in the middle of it, Um, that's even if you're not real close to betting. If it's peak rot and you know you've got decent deer population, you can have you know, just that's one of those things. Going blind, you could have a great hunt. I agree. Um. So the um particularly, I would say during the rot, you know, outside of the rout, you kind of have to look at more than micro features exactly where they're betting where they're feeding. Yeah, okay, hey Justin how about you, Yeah, I mean I would thinking back kind of also what both of you guys said, Um, I was talking about the long ridges, and I know that's something before I think, you know, you kind of look past those. UM. I have seen a lot of uh there in the ride. I've seen a lot of cruising on the side of those, um, you know, kind of going back and forth, uh, checking different doe groups and stuff, you know, on the ends of those grid business stuff. So I would agree with that. But for me, I wrote, I've mainly hunted more rolling hills. Um. I've got into a little bit of this steeper stuff the blow country here in the past few years, and it does seem like kind of what Joe said. It seems like the deer a little more predictable based on like the terrain, you know, drain features kind of funnel them a little more. But the rolling hills, for me, it's about diversity. I mean, I have to find diversity, you know, multiple different uh coverage just coming together. Um, because they really seemed to kind of like Joe said, they really seemed to stick to cover more so than kind of the terrain funnel on them. And I'll be honest, I think in the in the rolling kills the winds and suffer, they just seem to be a little bit more difficult because of the thermals don't have white and strong plate. You know. Is that you in like the secret drink um so me, Yeah, it's diversity. Um. I do have to say, I've seen a lot of I've kicked a lot of bucks. Uff. I kill a lot of bucks in these bowl shaped ridges. These bridges it's like so it would be like a ridge like in the shape of the seed, and it has several secondary points that shut down off of it, offering a you know, several different um points to bed on based on the winds and stuff. And I have seen a ton of box betting in those. M hmm. That's really one thing that I that I really looked for. I just had some really good love to quick with those. Yeah. So yeah, I mean you guys kind of get on it though, you know pretty much pretty much the same. I mean, you know, saddles and and all. That's the points. Uh, you know, that's all things I look for. But probably the first thing would be the bull. I don't know, I've just had a lot of u uh finding bucks better than Yeah, let's uh. I was gonna ask about bowls a little later. But since we're on that and we're talking about bucks betting, UM, let's talk about like we you know, you hear about the leeward side of the ridge, you know, on the points and whatnot, and and that's really the majority of what you hear about as far as the mature bucks betting, so we know that's one of the features. And now Justin and Joe you're mentioned you know these bowls, and I've seen that as well. Um. I've also seen him down low and I've also seen them bed just right at the right at the head of a drainage on a really thick hillside, like right at the right where drainage comes to, uh where it dies off at the top there below the ridge top, but at the head of the drainage. So can you guys, Justin, let's start with you. Why don't you go through some of the all the types of features that you have seen mature bucks bet on it besides just points, I've seen them bet download two um a lot of times. I don't know if that's more based on so like here, for instance, than the majority of the stuffy hunt. A lot of your access would be from the tops of these bridges. Um. And then guys will you know, they'll go up a certain distance and then they'll they'll shut down off this bridge and they'll hunt that. Well. I don't know if it's just you know, if the deer is gonna survive there, they're gonna have to do something to get away from that pressure, so they're gonna drop down a little bit lower. Um. I don't know about actually betting in the bottom, but um, I have seen them be a lot lower on the you know, like the points. Uh even I'm talking to ten ft from the bottom, you know. And again this is more so you're rolling hills. Um. I've seen a bed like you said, Andy, I've seen that is ahead of drainage systems. And I have seen them bed on just like a bench on the side, you know, especially in the lake. See that it seems like when the weather's cool and they're trying to get some sun, it all bed on the south basin slopes and getting out of the wind. Um Man, I have seen them bed of course on points you know, as the majority of the time on the secondary point, Um, is where you'll find them. Mm hmm, yeah. I mean even in the open you know, hardwoods, if you've got some blowdowns, three tops and stuff, it looks rather open, but you've got a little bit of cover there, and I've seen them bet on that and it could even be up on the very top of the ridge even. Um, I've seen a bet in a lot of a lot of weird places. I know that, you know, I think everybody believes and you know, put for the points, and I would say that's probably where they bed majority of time. But I have I've seen him in a lot of weird and odd places. And I'll jump in real quick and ask you follow up, justin uh, has it been pretty consistent that they use those features in relation to a certain wind direction? Like Andy mentioned, typically we'll hear about the leeward side of a ridge. Um, how do you think about wind when trying to predict you know, where these bucks might be betted in that kind of terrain? Yes, and no. Um, so I've seen the majority of the time, guest, I would say they're betting on, you know, the leeward side based on the wind direction and all that. But I have seen them. Like take a pole. Um, that's kind of hard to point, but like take a bowl and say the wind is coming over on like the east side of that bowl, and the buck may be betted on, uh, like the eastern side of the you know, the other ridge system like as a bowl shaped around on the other side of it. But the wind will kind of come up and go once you get into them. A lot of times you still find that the wind is doing something kind of funny. So it would like roll over that one ridge and cause like a swirling effect to where that deer can pretty much I mean anything around him. He's gonna he's gonna catch you. You know, he's gonna get a whiff of you at some point there. But I have seen a bed on windward float. Um. You know, it's not always the wind over the back thing. I think sometimes visual uh comes into play. Uh. You know, so in the winter times and stuff. You know, they like to get in suns, so they'll they'll get wherever they can do that. But I do believe no matter what, they have some sort of an advantage. They're not just gonna lay down in the spot that they're vulnerable wind. But yeah, I think a lot of times like that. Like I said, on the windward slope, I think the wind a lot of times. If you get right in those beds, you'll start to feel the wind doing some funny things as it swirls around or whatever makes sense. So Joe, you do you see some of those same things. Yeah, justin hit on a lot of the good points. Um. I expand on a thing or two that I've seen. Um. I think, um bucks, as they the lower they bed, the last a line they are to you know, the the theward slopes, um so a pie. Yeah, most of the time it seems like they are betting on the leeward side leeward point, um knobs and stuff as they bed down lower. Um. You really seeing break in that correlation. Um. And now you see it sometimes and not as often. Um. And for reference Herberty reference. You know some people have heard this before. But I run a lot of trick cameras. Um. I'm not hunting on my cameras. I'm doing it just to learn more about deer. So. UM. I leave cameras silk and spots for you know, three or four months, and then look at that. Look at the observations of and correlate them with weather data. UM. You know all that stuff UM, wind, temperature, UM pressure, humidity, UM, cloud cover, UH, time of year, all that jazz and UM. I see a ton of correlations, and sometimes I don't. I don't see them. You know, the deer move and bed very consistent, the window high down low, there's less that consistency UM. And I agree with justin UM. I see bucks that and all the time kind of low points or low benches so they can kind of look out across the bottom UM or a bowl. UM. They love betting around those perimeter those bowls UM. And you know that those those are kind of thermal HUB. I think, UH see a lot of times you'll see the rubs are scrape and they bucks dropped. They really like to drop down off off their bed down through that bowl and then kind off the other side. UM. I see that a lot and UM. The one thing I would have there is UM. When you're talking bottom, UM, when the bottom gets to a certain size, it seems like that's when bucks start betting down in it. And not just box, but those two UM and I don't know, hundred a couple hundred yards apartment yards across UM when deer start feeling more secure and bedding down in that bottom um, and I think it's a matter of they don't feel as trapped. It might be a little claustrophobic if it's real tight and constructed, the narrow um bottom, but a bigger bottom then they bed down in that cover and that's when they start treating that like you know, a bigger um, you know, swamp or um, marsh um, even though it might not be marshy or swampy, but they're betting out in that bigger bottom um, So bring out it. That's that's when I think I see them actually bet down in there, when it gets a little bigger. You have you have you seen Joe any you both Justin Andrew. You both mentioned many different types of spots within a hill country setting that they could be betted. As I'm listening to this, one of the first things I'm wondering is, well, how the hell do I figure out what they're using now? Right? They could be there, and they could be there, and they could be here, and if I was walking onto a neat piece of ground, I would just be swimming in all these different ideas. Um. One of the first things I'm thinking if I was trying to filter this down and make sense of it, I would say, okay, well, would the time of year change where they'd be betted? Do you see any correlation between wan time of the season, so early season versus the rut versus late season or anything like that that would give you guidance as to how to pick your most likely betting spots. Is that you know, in the early season, when there's lots of leaf cover, they're more likely to be betted high, and when it's a late season they're more likely better lower. I don't know, is there anything like that that comes to mind? Yeah, I definitely have. UM. So, you know, in hill country, I would say, general rule of thumb, majority of deer going to be bettered up high, but there are a lot of like like, it's not a big majority, it's a slight majority. Um. So tiny year is a big thing, and um, within that time of year, the biggest factor is, in my opinion, comfort besides hunting pressure and touch hunting pressure, but comfort. Um, late season deer are gonna favor those subtly exposures. Um, they're gonna be I don't know that they're going to be up high, but are going to be up high enough so they can get sune. They're not gonna be necessarily down in thick cover unless there's no sun if it's a blizzard. That's one of my favorite times hunt down in the bottom when a blizzard rolls through an hill country because all those deer dropped down to the bottom to get out of the wind of the snow. And I have had some crazy good hunts just seeing tons and tons of deer um buck hays and does and in in December, you know, like like weird stuff. UM in the middle of a blizzard. You know, UM down wall and early season, UM, they it's hot out. They favor of those cool north slopes um or or bottoms where they might be the bottom might be a little tighter um or has water in it and they'll be close water, so cooler down there. So UM comforts a big thing. And then hunting pressure there's another big variable, and that has a big impact UM and stead of for but UM when the pressures, you know, when access is up high, that pushes deer down. When access is down low, it pushes deer up. UM. It's wherever the hunters UM are. The thickest the deer going to be in the other elevation. Basically, Yeah, that makes sense. Justin would you add anything to to that question about how time of year might impact where they choose to bed. Yeah, absolutely, I think Joe spot on them there. Um. I will say I think Joe hunts, and I don't know you can correct me if I'm wrong here, Joe. But I think um in the hunt more rugged terrain up in the hills here, like I said, with the rolling hills, um, I will see a bit lower UM, and a lot I think a lot of that is to to you know, access being from the top and stuff. But even in the early season and stuff, I see him bend down lower UM, and I don't know if it is you know, he dropped down off in there, and it's it's generally it's a lot cooler down there. And the winds in the in the rolling hills will stay I don't want to say stay consistent because they're hard. They were consistent, but you'll fill them down in there. The wind will still be at the back, you know, even further down it um, because it's more you know, if a gradual slow versus like deep crop UM. But yeah, I would say, I mean, Joe, I would I would agree with all that. I do see him bending higher, it seems in the later season, and I think that's you know, get up high and gets fun. Um And on the generally it seems like late season can pretty much for the most part. Anyways, from what I see, it seems like they're betting more wind based, and I think it's a lot of times to get out of the wind, you know, to block the wind. Yeah, but uh yeah, I mean I think he pretty much get on everything. And justin when you say you're you're seeing them that lower, Um, is that like say half way down the hill or yeah, I don't want to down, I would say a half about halfway down, uh, Joe. Generally it kind of depends on two you know, where the covers at. Um. Even in the early season. Sometimes if it's a you know, a rather open area, it still seems like Bill, you know, they favor the cover. So if it the color covers, you know, on the bottom third even I've seen him bed down in there. Um, but uh yeah, I would say you know that one third. That was one thing that I think a lot of guys around here, you know that was preached a lot um on the Hunt the Beast, uh, and I agree with it in most cases, but I believe that you know, on the rolling hills there's exceptions to that and there, but they're just kind of bed. I mean, if you get a stronger win day or bed and lower light variable winds, think like they do that a little bit higher. Um, if there's so many variables those situations on with that. Uh, but yeah, I wanna circle back around to the bulls real quick because, uh, justin you and I had this conversation. You told me that you see some of your your biggest, most mature deer bed in those bowls, and they seem almost bulletproof. And I after you said that, I started thinking back because most of my hill country has been in Ohio, Iowa, and a little bit in Indiana and then in Kentucky. And there was an early season several years ago where Um, I was hunting a pretty nice buck and he was betted in that same type of train feature like a bowl, and I couldn't get in there without getting busted because I just could not get a consistent wind. And I got I went in there twice and got busted twice. But Joe, you I asked you about that, and you have found uh unique Uh circumstance are a set of conditions that you feel like you can hunt that effectively. Yeah, um, some of the time. And then I'll conclude this with a story about how it didn't work this year on me. But uh, yeah, so I see that too, and I think it's because of the popularity, um, the spreading popularity of you know, hill country hunting, and people focus on leeward slope, the military crest, the classic places where dear do move. But once the pressure is on up on the ridges, then you know, like I've said, I've seen that push down lower and the justice point. You know, I would stress to everybody listening, you know, think about how steep your hills are and if they're more role versus steep enough that a deer doesn't want to travel up and down it very easily. Um, you know, that really changes how they use it. And if they can bed you know, the entire slope versus they could you know, only top and bottom it's so steep, that's that's a big difference. Um. So down in those bowls, um, I have found there's two kind of two circumstances UM, that I found consistent WHIM and I'm I'm a fanatic about this. Like in the off season, I'm carrying milk weed with me scouting and sometimes if I like, I don't carry all the time, but I'll carry a couple of sticks and I'll try to get up in a tree and I'll drop milk weed, like in the spring, UM and just see what it does. UM. And I'll take note of those weather conditions and you know, try to figure out if I can have a consistent air current down low. So I've done a lot of experimenting UM. And I like situations where there's almost no whin and so the predominant activities just thermals um. That's a little tricky because of course you've got a thermal switch. UM. But say even like a cool, overcast day, you don't have much for rising thermals um, and the thermal switch might be happening pretty early in the afternoon or late in the morning, UM, and you can get like a consistent I really like those consistent down draft you know, early in the morning and down at night. And I set up right next to usually a big bowl. It usually it's got a ditch or something. And if I set up right next to that ditch, that's getting pulled down into the ditch fairly fairly well, um, and you can have a safe hunt that way, um. And the other circumstances. The opposite is a screaming wind over the hill over top, and this is usually for those deeper hills and um, this is something I don't know. It might be my favorite tactic. Get a screaming wind wind over a ridge, coming across the ridge and you're you're on the leeward side, except I'm way down at the bottom of the leeward side um, or wherever the deer are down low um, and the air is getting pulled back up that leeward side. So it's actually, um, it's a vacuum effect. That's what's causing it. It's not a rising therminal. It's a vacuum effect. Um. And if I get a twenty plus nine hour sustained wind over the ridge, I know I'm going to usually have a consistent updraft. UM. The Turkey thing there is wind dies down a lot of time. You know, first light, last light, there's a big buck around that's bag because then it starts to get swirling, but if you have that consistent wind. I've had situations where I have a consistent updraft and I'm dropping milkweed and it's going right over my head all the time. Like it's impossible for a deer smell on me unless it's fly it, you know. Um. And I love those situations because deer they think they're in this bulletproof situation down low where they're used to smell and everything, and I can get in there. Um. And I've killed a couple of big bucks doing that. UM, So you know that sounds all good and it works. I've got proof. But this year I was after a big old buck, um, big nine point typical split T two's and uh um he loved a bed on a low low benches around this big bowl. Uh, real rugged terrain. Um, and he loved to bed down there. Well, the bulls was kind of oriented northwest southeast, so with the northwest wind, uh, it was kind of I was going for a light northwest wind and a falling thermal. Those were aligned going down into the bowl. And UM, I set up right by the ditch. Um. He'd been there last year. This is the circumstances there. Last year, I checked my camera. Once I knew he was on camera. Um, I knew he was around this, he was alive. I figured he's done in the same spot. He was six years old this year, I estimated, and mid October. Um it was the second week October, I think, um my first or second out of the season. Um, and I set up got it. I snuck in there, up the ditch, called up a tree, perfect and that while the old deer he just dropped down into the bowl. And he dropped down into the ditch, which I never thought he would, about six yards down wind and I saw him, you know, and then he he he was down wind to me, but he was up on the rim of the ditch, and I did not think he couldn't smell me. My son was getting pulled down into this ditch. The ditch was fairly big. It was probably thirty feet across. And they dropped down to the ditch and boom, up came his head and that was that, you know. So he was murdered. Me. Now I had the last laugh because I put my brother down there a few weeks later, and not in exacts up but nearby, and um he killed him in early November. UM, so he's dead, but um, you know it was it's turkey. Hunting low is turkey. Hunting hills in general's turkey with their currents. The hunting low is really a turkey, So be prepared to screw up. Definitely. Yeah, justin have you ever have you ever attempted, uh anything or found a way to successfully hunt those those balls, well, like in the rolling hills and stuff. I understand what Joe's saying, and I can see that in the steeper train. Um, and it may still you may still get that instant situations with you know, the more gently rolling hills, but from my experience, it's just really hard to get any kind of a consistent wind in there. Um. I did find kind of a unique situation a few years ago, and uh it actually ended up being the biggest buck after put an arrow through. Um. What this situation was, there was a couple of guys that had found some find down on this bolt and they were they basically set up camp. They put a ladder stand down on the bottom, They put a uh hanging on on the side of this bridge, and I found it that the spring before that. I went in there to check it out, you know, because I do a lot of kind of in season scouting check in areas, and I'm looking for first sign in and around the perimeters of these bed in areas. But I knew that buck was in there. It was a great bed in area. Um. And once I've seen all that sign I've seen these ribbons and everything, I just kind of my billo. Well, then fast forward to that following spring, I went back in there and noticed the sign there. The buck was back in there. You see, the bed was being used. So the following year I was waiting for So let's see how this It's set up like the head of the bowl, so it's kind of a C shaped, you know bowl. The head of the bowl would have been facing to the west. Um. The buck was betting kind of on the southern side of the slope. But when coming over his back and I waited on a day it was eighty five degrees it was early October, and the wind was blowing out of the southwest. Well, it was blowing kind of over the head of this pole and then down into the bowl, blowing kind of with it out toward the mouth of it. And I set up on basically on the mouth of this bole as this buck dropped down off this point. He was swinging around, slinging down lower that bowl because there was still stand in there, and accountdent that deer was checking that area out. For one, I think most of the time to see him in the early season, it was rather thick down in there, so I think he would just safely drop down off this while I was set up on the northern side. And as he swung around got a whip, everything was clear and nobody was down on the bottom. He carried on about his white and he come on up, got an here on. Most of the time on the bowls, for me, I have to find either how they're entering or exiting the bowl in order to get another And a lot of times, I'll be honest, it has to be like on the front or something like that. It seems like these big old deers they just dropped down off and then things and they kind of hang up in there in the evenings and me and by the time they make it out of them, you're not getting a shot at it, or they dip into them, you know, way too early in the morning. Um, I will say, if you can find, if you know how that deer's entering that and you can manipulate the wind, you know, get blowing or get just down, you know, to where your thermals will be falling, dropping one further off to where he can't get it. But yeah, I mean I've had my poet more times than I've been successful in the balls. I'll say that, m justin, you're um most of the time when you're seeing a buck bedded around the side of a bowl, are you seeing it? Use them like that? It sounds like you are, Like when they get up, they're dropping down in you know, whether they're going across or at least you know so they you that's why they're there, right, And like you said earlier, a lot of times down in those bottoms, or at least from my experience, I find a lot of sign a lot of scrapes, a lot of rubs, and that's what drew the attention to those guys camped down. Yeah, they set up right over this stuff in that you know, obviously it's betting up on that side and you can watch that or hear them or whateverthing. So yeah, but yeah, I see the same thing justin you mentioned Sorry, any I'll jump in really quick. You had mentioned that one of the better ways you've found to actually hunt those spots is to find where they're entering and exiting the bowl, because that's a little bit safer for you, Um, for someone listening who doesn't exactly know how to pinpoint that entrance or exit. Could you describe what it is you're looking for to help you determine that, Yeah, this is how they're getting in and out the times saddles, To be quite honest with you, Um, if there's a slight little saddle that kind of dips off into that bowl, Gosh, a lot of times if that there is going to cross that in daylight hours, it's gonna be through something that something where um, you know he's safe and secure, not gonna be skyline. Um. And then a lot of times too, you know there's there may not be signed right on top of the ridge as far as like a rub or a scrape or something like that, but you can generally find sign kind of leading in or out of those bowls, you know, on the ridge there. Um. But yeah, I be honestly, a lot of them I've seen dip through staddles, and it may not be a big obvious sattle that shows up on a Topo map. Sometimes you just have to get out there and and gout it and you'll just see a a slight little dip in the in the ridge there, and that's where that will dip through. Yea. From my own it's someone one of my favorite. Uh, Like, saddles are important, but the bigger ones to attract hunters pretty easily. So, like you mentioned the ones when you find one that might drop you know, five ft or tennessee from the ridge. Yeah, you can't see it on a TAPO until you're walking through it and you're like, oh, you know, only my head sticking out, you know along the ridge. Those are those can be lethal. Yeah. Yeah, So that the hunt example that you just gave justin reminded me of something. Um, those guys were kind of set up in the bottom there where where there was some sign down there. And I remember seeing that you sent me that map at Topo, which was really cool to see how that hunt and folded by the way, but I remember the it was that, I remember it too. Yeah, yeah, that bottom was relatively tight, um, and I know I remember you know on the beast, you know, the consensus is, you know, don't hunt the bottoms, stay out of the bottoms, and it was it was ironic because every time I read that, or when I was reading that, there was actually um a spot in Iowa that UM I had killed two bucks um two years or two times that I hunted it in a row when I drew the tag, and then my my buddy killed one out of the same stand as a couple of trees over but same area. And it was in the bottom. But what was unique about this bottom and Joe, you touched about on this a little bit ago, but it was it was a wide bottom um. So what I loved about this spot was um it was where several points dropped down into the same direction. So there was like four or five points that were kind of all pointed down into this bottom, pointed in the general same area point of this general same direction, and at the bottom was actually like a like an overgrown like set aside field. And I would hunt that that bottom ran east and west, so anytime I had a west wind, I could get basically where all those points dumped down and converge. There was a lot of travel coming up and down those points and criss crossing, and I would get right at the bottom where all those travel routes converged with that west wind, but I would be just on the east side of where most of the criss crossing was going. And man, it was like, honestly, it literally would be like one sit and and I'm not super picky, like you know, I'm coming from Michigan. It's an out of state trip back. Then I would have two or three days to hunt. So I was shooting the first, you know, good buck that came by. But it was every time I had that wind, and it was in November. Man, the amount of deer I saw in bucks I saw cruising down through that area and I don't remember ever getting really busted as long as I had that consistent wind. But um, I mean it was it was quick, you know. I mean, if you're gonna wait for a five six year old buck, you know, a hundred fifty sixty inches or something might be a different story. But I was able to get an arrow in a good buck really quickly in that type of scenario. You have, you guys, ever found anything like that? Yeah, I got the first question for you, Andy, where the bucks moving in like that? You've seen down there moving consistently, you know, with that wind like where they're using in a confiscent way or they move in a consistent direction. Did you find her? Well, it just seemed like, honestly, it was it was always in that kind of November or through the ninth time frame. It's just seemed like a lot of cruising going on. To be honest with you, it looked like they were kind of more doing like point A to point B, but they were using these points as travel routes and they were crossing that bottom um kind of and that you know there there was like probably a seventy five yard radius where all those those ridges dumped down are those points dumped down, And there was tons and tons of buck signed right there in the bottom straps all around the edge. It was a set aside field and there was a lot of young uh you know, young tree drowth down there, like sapling sized trees, and it was just shredded. I mean, it had everything you'd want as far as his buck signed um, I mean, dose would come down off and there'd be you know, bucks following the dough. It was just a constant action. It was just one of those spots that was just dynamite. But I always remember that because everybody was staying, never hunt the bottoms. But I think, and we've talked about this a little bit, it's it's those steep bottoms that are really tough to hunt. It you get, you get one that as a decent width on it, if you hunt it with the right wind, you can hunt it effectively. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I got a question for you, Andy on that was that? And you may have mentioned this, was it rather steep the rain around there or was it more like gently bowling hills or I would say it's more probably what you're used to. Um. The only the only place I've hunted um that I think might be comparable to what a lot of the stuff Joe hunts is is southern Ohio and then one spot in Kentucky. And uh so, most most of my hill country I think has been more rolling to you know, medium size hills, not a ton of real steep, steep country. Yeah, I've got any example like that, like you were just mentioning, umactly taught that me and my dad both killed We've actually killed a few bucks out of and it's the wide bottom of the bottom itself is probably gosh, a hundred fifty yards wide or something like it, and we have found some very very consistent cruising and it's it's very similar to what you're saying. There's a lot of points that kind of shut right down into this bottom and it's just I don't know, it's it's always held a lot of deer. There is a a field kind of out from it um and the deer kind of you know, kind of hug that kind of like an inside corner um. But they got down through there and we've had a lot of right down in that bottom on you know, specific wind. Uh. Yeah, it's Joe, I think you you've described that. You call that a thermal hub. Correct, Yeah, yeah, so it's um thermal hubs. So I do believe they are using that to their sent advantage. But it is also the reason these hubs um they're also a terrain hub too. It's not just scent, but when you have both those line up, when it's the shortest distance from A to B and a deer, a buck can go through there and sent a lot of those surrounding points. He can know if there's a dope up there or I really think they use it for their defense too. I think they can check if there's hunters on the surrounding ridges by drumping down in those areas, so you know, they check what's around them and it's the fastest and you know, the most secure point from point A to point B. That's when there, that's when those super hot spuss like you guys described. I've you know a few of those two and then um, often it's like one specific or maybe two specific winds. Usually it's one specific wind you can get hunt out there. It's like you just have to sit, you know, and you might not get that wind one one one season. You know, I've been there where I'm like, yeah, you know, you know it deers in the area. You know, you know it's a hot spot that time of year. You don't have to wind, don't even try it down well you know. Yeah, I'm sure you guys have been there too, and you know you push it and never never seems to work when you push it with the wind, or you get that wind and you can't hunt that night. Yeah exactly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wanna. I wanna two things. Number One, Um, I've seen this exact same thing you're describing too in in my southern Ohio spots. The one spot I've hunted a decent bit of of hill country and and the exact thing. It seems like they'll be just a certain angle that you'll get that one consistent wind if you've got it. Um. But I just want to make one simple observation for people that are listening, UM to just kind of simplify a little bit. A lot of the examples you guys have all pointed to have all related to a turkey foot as you described it earlier, Joe, but in two different versions. There's the you could say, there's the turkey foot pointing down, which would be where all the fingers are pointing down. And that's the situation that you were talking about earlier today, Joe, when you're talking about hunting up top where those ridges and there's multiple ridges that come up to uh to a pinch point of sorts, where you would be at the top of those and all these ridges come up to it. So you've got the the downward facing turkey foot you want to hunt high, and then there's the inverted turkey foot where the ridges and the points are coming down to the bottom, and that's when you'd want to hunt low. In these spots that you're all describing. Assuming you can get the right wind. So so just a simple observation, look for those turkey foot type situations and take note is that the upward facing or the downward facing, and that's going to help you determine where that sweet spot of activity will likely be if you can get the wind right put it. Yeah, Yeah, that's that's very good. It's it's exactly it's the same feature. It's just exactly how you put it. You know, whether it's the top of the ridges or the bottom that makes that kind of hand shape, you know pattern. Yeah, So I got a question here in um I'm guessing or I guess I'm hoping that the answer is varied a little bit, but maybe they won't. But if I took you guys down to an area you're not familiar with, southern Ohio, Kentucky, down in Indiana hill country, something you had never hunted before, and you had one week during both season to get an arrow in a mature book, what just give me your kind of overall uh game plan, your strategy from the second you get boots on the ground, you leave your vehicle two the day you shoot that dear, and I would want I want two examples. I want one where let's call it just early season, you know, mid October, and then let's do the same thing more pre run those last couple of days of October into the first you know, week and a half in November. So let's let's start with you, Justin. And while you're thinking about your answer, Justin, I just gotta say, isn't this guy damn good at hosting? I feel like Andy's gonna steal my job. He's got some good questions here now exactly, all right, take it away, Justin. Okay, So we talked about points. We talked about areas that you know, Buck took me bad early season for me and Andy. I know. You know, listen, Joe, I think too. And I'm probably more aggressive than most of your guys in the hills, um, even on stuff that I know. Oh, I'm one of those guys that's not afraid to go bump here up and I do that a lot. And I have killed a lot of my books by doing that and getting back in there stay a couple of days later. And as both you know, Joe and Eady, no, I've killed several of them coming right back in that same day. UM, So that's gonna be my go to if I've got a short period of time that i can go on a new piece of ground that you know that I've never been on, never stepped foot on. Man, I'm going to aggressive. I'm going right forward, where's these deer bed and I'm going to bump him up, and I'm gonna look the area over and then based on what I find from there, then i'll hunt up boarding, you know. So what I think my best cancer to get the crack at that there is, um and it may be that same day. Um. I'm not opposed to bumping a deer up depending on how I spook him. If if I get him up, you know, and and he didn't get my wind, I feel confident in that. I've seen a lot of them turn and come right back in there or swing down wind of it, you know, um, and try to figure out what that was that bumped them up. UM, So that would be kind of what I'm doing. And I'm obviously I'm going to look, you know, for the for the thicker stuff. If there's any type of don't agg nearby, I'm probably gonna look at the secondary points of stuff that shut off the major ridge nearby that m bowls you don't think that we had mentioned. Hey, justin real quick, I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt, but no, you're funny. Go ahead, this bump a dump thing. And we've talked about this, and you you pull this off more than anyone I know, and you purposely do it, which I think is just so cool. Um, so correct me if I'm wrong here, Like uh, I would assume you know, if you're gonna purposefully do that, you're you're gonna you're gonna try to do this fairly early in the day obviously when they're beded, so you're gonna wait probably pass you know, mid morning at least, maybe going around lunchtime, maybe you know, one one o'clock, eleven to one o'clock somewhere in there. And obviously you're playing the wind, your winds in your favor, um, and you have an area that you're targeting based on wind direction in the train features that you've looked at on the map, and you're gonna kind of slip through there, and you're trying to you're trying to bump this deer like a soft bump. You don't want this deer to smell you. Um, if he sees you or hears you. Not a big deal. Um, that's kind of the goal. But it's you want a soft bump, not a violent bump, or you know you damn near step on him, or you don't want him to to wind you. And then once he's gone, you're quickly analyzing the situation and estimating where you think that deer is going to circle back down win to scent, check that bed and come back. And you've had great luck even on the same day of deer doing that. And I also would assume if you sat there that that afternoon and he didn't come back, you'd probably give it one more sit in the morning. Would that be accurate statement? That would be accurate? Maybe even another touch shot, you know, the following day, because I have seen to where and again this is gonna be win. I mean, say you jump him off of a point, you know, on a northwest wind or whatever in the next day is gonna be stout. Well, that could change things up. Um, but yeah, and you're you're absolutely correct. I'm not trying to just blowing completely out of the area. Ideally, you want him just to kind of jump up, you know, and just kind of trought off because I've seen that, and that's when I have had the best luck at him coming right back in that that same day. And a lot of times things like they hear me more so than than seeing and obviously not smelling me. Um, they'll just kind of just kind of, you know, shut off, like a deer that spooked, but not uh, they're not running out of the country by thing. And I've seen it so often to where they'll they will they'll just loop around and they'll try to figure out what that was. I had one um that it killed a couple of years ago literally came right back in on the exact trail that I walked into when I bumped him and he was filling the green. I'm sure that dear thought that that whatever it was, just like a coyote. If they run through and they bump them up, they probably circle around and do the same thing, come right back in there that since you know, an hour old, now that whatever it was has long gone, they slipped right back into the bedding area. Um. The only problem for him was I was still in there. I was still in there, and I was actually looking it over to pick a tree for the following day. And that hunt really opened my eye to it on you know, killing him on the same day, but I have done it and then you know, came back the following day or two days later, even five days later and kill them coming out of there. So that would be my my go to in the early seasons. UM for the free run, I'm probably gonna do the same thing, only I'm gonna be paying the more attention to where like the dough pockets are, the dough groups are, and then look at some sign you know, in and around them, maybe trying to even bump up some does trying to figure out exactly where they're laying down it and then looking you know it's down winds of those areas and trying to find setup accordingly do that, Yes, would be my my go too. There's uh I want to tell this story real quickly because it just it just it's uh the epitome of the type of hunter you are justin and I don't don't even know if this was hill country. You can allude to that, but that's more to do with your style. But you hunted uh different state this year. I'm not gonna dive into it, but it's it's actually uh spot that I told you about m and um just so happened that I knew several hunters that were hunting that same piece of public land while you were there, including one of the very best, John eberhard Um, and several other very accomplished hunters. And I don't think he was there that long, but some of those guys were there during your two weeks, um, and it sounds like it was some tough hunting, tons of pressure, and you are the only person out of all those people that pulled a deer out of there, and you pulled an absolute giant out of there in just a few days, and uh, it was just incredible. I mean it was just incredible. Um. But in you know, you told that we talked about this hunt, and you were on foot doing just exactly what you're talking about. Uh A lot of the time, kind of still hunting, trying to get into, you know, where a big buck was living, and if you needed to get him up on his feet and bump him, then so be it, because then now you know what you're hunting. But I don't know, I just did that. I dude, actually kicked that deer. I'm I'm almost a hunter percent to andy that I kicked that deer up. I didn't. I didn't actually see him take off. I just I've heard him. I got up there to the bed, I looked it over. There was plenty of signing there, and I think I killed him two days later coming back into the general area. That was just a giant zealous giants. This is justin is so good at that. I would I Andy said it just stay here from me too, like this is where he like, I've never seen anything like that. You know that that just fair woodsmanship. I'll understand. Then the deer um you mentioned something justin that I wanted to kind of call out, and that's you said. You know, when they get bumped, they come back. They don't pay as much attention to your sign your ground set. And I think that's true. And so a big buck moving through the woods gets human scent. He's on the move. If he locks up, he's worried. But he gets bumped out of somewhere. Deer places they live in North America. They're running into humans. You know, they're getting bumped up by people. So they get bumped up. And if he gets bumped up, maybe he knew you were a hunter a human. Um I do agree, Like once, if they smell you, thoughts go way down. But um, I think that um the um, I think that the deer if they get bumped up and come back, they knew somebody was walking through there, so they're like, oh, yeah, he was there two hours ago, and then he dies because Johnathan was still standing there, you know. So, um that's what they like. I think they're less worry about ground sent under those specific circumstances. You know, not gonna say. I mean, they might still lock up, but they seem to. If they think it's just somebody moving through, they're less worried, and they'll come and they'll be worried coming back. They'll probably sneak try to sneak back in, but it's not like them being on the move and then hitting ground cent that's when they freak out. You know, we're already yeah, yeah, spot on with it. Though. I actually got to watch that year from probably a good and I'm talking about a year until a few years ago. Um, I got to watch him that I like, I said, I bumped him on the same day he made a loop and came back in and I got him. But I watched him coming into the bed from a good I don't know, eighty ninety yards, you know, and it's just like a big buck moved through the woods. I mean he without a doubt, he had his nose to the ground, was spelling where I was. They could be steps. He stopped and he's just stand there and you know you'd look around. I mean he did that all the way and it took him forever to get in there. And uh, to say I held it together, it would be a lie. I was shaking like a leaf as you coming back in. But but it worked out, and that really opened my eyes to that. Uh. Like I said, I wasn't I wasn't there on purpose to do that that day. I was looking the area over, but it just so happened that I caught, you know, I caught movement out of the corner of my eye, and um, the restless history. You know, it worked out. So but I can tell you a lot of stories too that where you know, I've jumped the deer up and I you know, I set up for whatever they they would come back, and he did so. Yeah, And because of course it doesn't always work. I got a couple of follo up questions on that UM number one we hear about this bump and dump tactic, and it makes sense, but it seems like the real crux, like the real trick that separates your average Joe from the guy like you who's actually getting it done. And that wasn't a knock on you, Joe, You're no average show. I really admit I'm not really good at this tactic, Like I don't have a lot of confidence in it. Then let us say it's not because it doesn't work, you know, so feel feel free to use my name. I believe it works. It's just Justin's great at this. So then what separates what separates you from average Joe here on the line is that the trick seems to be in picking the right tree for the setup. Like that seems to be the really tricky spot is figuring out the way to set up, in anticipating how that buck's going to come back, in anticipating how he'll use the wind um. That seems just really tricky. There seems like a really narrow line you've got to walk between being in the right place to be close to being a range of whatever that trail or where that bed is, etcetera, etcetera. But then also anticipating how he's reacting to this bumpyhead. So question number one is I'd love more detail on how you're thinking through where you're going to set up. And then question number two is bumping dumps like this in hill country is that any different than in flatter terrain. I'm imagining that on some of these types of points or betting up a high on bowls these bucks, it's gonna be harder to get close to a buck like that without them seeing you from a distance because of their the way they use terrain to their advantage. It just seems harder. I'm thinking it would be harder to pull off a bump and dump without a buck bumping way sooner than you would ever build it close enough to know where he was betted. So just curious if there's anything when it comes to those types of hilly situations where it's just tough to get close enough to one to know where that bed was. So question one and to start to give you double double ammy there, but give me the real details on that setup in your thought process. First. Well, in the hills, I think you're correct, it is definitely hard to get close enough to see them because I think a lot of times they they get out of there before you were you know, aware of something even being there. Um. But then again I've also had you know, big box, really old pipe an area and they're the heck out of you when they jump up, you know, because you're right next to him or whatever. Um. But in the hills, I mean, with the terrain and everything, I'm usually once I jump one and I feel like that, you know, he didn't get my wind, um, and he didn't take off the bust off out of there like he was here to death. I'm usually looking at the terrain around um that year, I feel like it's going to try to get down wind of that. So if it's you know, say if it's a bowl, you know, he's probably gonna try to use that other side of the ridge to to come back in you know, well out of cider anything. But it's it's it's hard to explain to the situational based on the terrain around there. Um. I had a buddy and I think I sent this you Andy that did it. He went in and and was setting up on a deer and he bumping and the ridge. It was kind of like point this year was fed on well then the main ridge you know say, extend back to the south, and then there was kind of made a ninety right there. It looked around down to another point that dropped down. So I told him, I said, well, I would slip back on that bridge back there. You know that the wind was blown back in that direction. And sure enough that that deer just you know, he dropped down off that point a circle around and he started coming up this other point that would have probably been about it. I don't know, a hundred yards maybe eight hundred yards distance between there, and unfortunately he you know, the shot didn't go so well. Hegnessed, but the deer did. Dude, he came back and he was circling back around, and I'm confident he was circling back around us, you know, to figure out what that was, so the terrain would be um the number one thing for me. I'm looking at the rain and how I think that deer we'll get down winto that position that I was at down when his bed, how he'll loop back in sture. I don't always get it right, you know. There's there's definitely times where, like I said, I don't see him come back, and I'm sure maybe they looked a little further out than I. You know, it's justipated. But and what was your second question there, Mark on that? Well, yeah, so so one part one you kind of answered both of them together. Um, so it kind of worked out. But if you have anything else when it comes to the thought process, I'm picking the tree and or unique aspects in the hills, and you kind of combined them. But if there's anything else as far as picking the right tree in that situation, I'll take it Otherwise. Otherwise, Andy, you can jump in. Well, I ticking the tree and stuff. Um, actually a couple of them. I filled off the ground. I did it this year. Um, early season. I jumped one up, actually jumped this yere up right next to a road and he crossed that. He ran out across the road, which really shocked me that he went that direction, but across the road. So I looked at you know, I looked at it, um, and this was I mean, it's still country, but there was was kind of down off in the bottom and a wide bottom. And I looked it over and I knew about two fifty yards down. Uh, what it was is a blocket timber kind of like a train in the shape blocket timber. At the tip of that was a tree line that went down and split this field and it's kind of like in a wail. And then that went down and head and you know say, if you would go left, it would left let off to the bigger timber to the right was per centry. I felt pretty confident it that that deer was head in that direction. The sign leading out of that um pretty much told the story. So after I jumped him and I was looking over that timber is about an acre and a half size, I knew that I wasn't gonna be able to cover all that if he came back in, And as you got towards the tip of that, the winds kind of got punky up there. So I just looked at the situation over. I thought my best crack would be to move out of there, kind of walk off in a direction like going back to the road in case he try to, you know, follow me out, and uh. I walked out that direction and I kind of made a loop in the field. It dumped back in, dumped down off kind of in this little valley, and set up down there, thinking that deer would probably because I bumped him I think at three in the afternoon and that's when it's getting dark, at like six thirty almost seven, And it worked out. He came back in, Um, came down through there and just carried on out. Is the normal, you know, normal evening thinking. I was a long going and that was probably a two and a half to three hour stretch in between that. So as far as picking the right tree, I don't know. I just have to look the situation over. It's kind of a got feeling and sinkuble type thing, I guess, you know, just being in that situation because they're all they're all so different. It's hard to I mean, if I had, you know, an example in front of me or something, I could, you know, maybe go about the insternet a little better. But yeah, no, that's that's helpful. Um okay, I think I think and lets you want to correct me something wrong here? I think we need to hear Joe. Now answer your example as far as the the new property in southern Ohio, Kentucky. Right, that's right, Joe, so yep, brand new hill country ground. Uh, your strategy from start to finish early season and then rut yeah, um, go go yeah, um going in brand new. UM. I mean, I really admit it. It's distinctly different from justin. UM. I mean he's, as you guys could tell the last that's a mensis next level and that UM, you know, just kind of snooping around, bumping um. UM. That's that's incredible. UM. He's a hunter. I want to be when I go up, you know, in those circumstances. UM. So I like, I like to be efficient with my time. So UM, I do a lot of scouting. I pay attention two tracks, you know, I pay attention to hot sign and food source and all that. But really just to be efficient. If I'm saying, you know, it's a great big piece of property. You know, it's these thousands of akers, UM. And I'm mapping out. I'm I'm mapping out like potential betting UM based on like stem count and points UM, terrain features, UM funnels and and you know like the turkey feet um that we talked about UM, like on GPS, and and I'm mapping all that out ahead of time so I can go in. And basically I'm scouting too, and I want to be like I set offficient of my time. I'm going to swing a big loop through the area, and I'm my goal is to cover as much ground as efficiently as possible. And a lot of times like I'll have my bow with me, you know, and sticks and tree I use a tree saddle. Um so um it's white mobile. And if I hit a spot where I think it's worth setting up, you know, say acorns are fall in early season. Um, and there's you know around a fresh rubber two and you know, big tracks and it's you know, just up the it from a bunch of secondary points. Um. You know. Yeah, obviously I'll be looking for a set up or I might be just you know, um, I'm probably a little heavier handed than justin I don't think I quite quite as touch about stuffed and set up. And I'll come through. I'll just you know, run through it, but still with the mentality of like if I bump something, um, even if I bump it hard, I might come back there, you know a few days later, um, and I and I have um, you know done setting up head deer comeback. I re really admit I have not killed one doing that. I've come real close a couple of times, but I haven't. I don't I don't lie to you. Um. And it's it's and it's more just you know, being good at it, you know, with practice to get better at it. Um. So I like to have a real as much as you know, I like cyber scouting whatever. Um. I don't have high confidence until I put boots on the ground and walk through an area that's kind of my angle. Um. So I'll, like I said, it might be five acres that I'm dealing with, I'll put in eight miles you know, in one day and just swing a big loop and then I feel a lot more comfortable about Okay, you know where the dare distributed in that area? Where is the food right now? You know that very so much earlier season. Um, and it can depend you know, are the white oaks fall? And are the red oaks fall? And are there any white you know, are there any coinsmence woever? Are they you know? I mean per Simmons, you know I just mentioned, Um, there's different, Um, you know early seasons about what's hot right now. It's not last week, it's not next week. You've really got to be you know. They things shift really rapidly. Um. And then you know, my favorite time period is like the pre rut into the early ruts phases. Um, I just love hunting that time period. Bucks are moving more, but they're still really consistent, um, you know, not too erratic movement, just following dose and heat before any does coming there, hardly any does come into astrius. So then then it's more okay where the dough group and the bucks are nearby. They're not necessarily chasing or cruising yet, but the bucks are going to keep tats on those dough groups. So that's where it really I'll be focusing more on those like um, you know, the the high turkey feet or the low turkey seat as it talked about in that pre rot period, the thermal hubs on those spots because usually um, like those turkey seats, they a lot of times have does that are they around there too? And that's when the but you know that week build up into the rut, that's when a lot of time you start seeing bucks get visible in those areas where other times a year they might not be anywhere around there, um because they don't need to, you know, they don't care about it. Those UM that's kind of how I tackle It's it's um probably more um just focusing on strategy and preparation because that's kind of my style, you know, and that that's what I would stress. You know, Justin's that doesn't have you know, he's got the best style for him, not necessarily gonna be a sixth great step for anybody else. I've got the best. I'm you know, working on the best style for me. You know, so if you want to be the best tenor you can be buying something that works for you. Don't try to copy something else to somebody else. You know, you get ideas from mother, Yeah, you can get get ideas from somebody else, you know. You know I listened to Justin, you know, Andy, you Mark, Um, we listened to each other. But you know, um, I do think some people would kind of get hung up. Oh you know I'm doing what is doing? Yeah, you know that you've been you know, kind of waste, been in your wheels if you just just kind of replicate, don't try to replicate, you know, my final works for you. Yeah. I love that you guys answered that so differently, And I was I kind of thought you might, um, But you know, you guys are both you gos, both playing to your strengths like Joe, It's exactly how I thought you would answer that. Um. Your your hunts are very well thought out and very strategic and um and a lot of times you you anticipate exactly what is going to happen, even with your deer drives. I mean that everything is so exact, and I know it doesn't play out perfectly every time, but it plays out just the way you think enough for you to be successful on multiple big bucks a year on very limited time. And I just oppresses me so much. And then and justin like, um, you know, Jeal said it best man. Just on the fly woodmanship skills and more of that aggressive instinctual approach. Um, so cool. Um. You know I I I feel like I feel like I do a little bit of both of those styles, but I don't feel as seasoned as either of you in your style at all. Um. And that's why I love. I just love talking to you guys, because I learned so much. There's a couple of things after talking about that I want to expand on. One is food in the hills, but we'll get to that in a second. But so one of my things when I typically when I go to hill country, it's been every time. Actually it's been during the rut. I've never went early season, um, and I've always focused on terrain features, um, you know, thinking bucks are on the move. Um, I'm gonna play the odds and try to get in these terrain funnels, these train features that should funnel movement, um if assuming the bucks are moving. So I usually wait for a good weather pattern, the right time of year, the right conditions for that to happen, and I've had great luck with that. But you know, obviously I kill. I don't always kill the biggest deer in the woods and that in that you know, in that type of situation. So I guess my question for both of you is during the rut, do you do that same thing, um or do you still focus on some of these known buck betting areas or where this deer has been living most of the year. I know, I know Dan has talked about that he's still even during the rut, he's still bouncing around to some of those, um, those known buck betting areas. So I was curious to see what you guys do for me. Like when I go to an unfamiliar area, I don't know what buck is there, so I don't even know where a specific buck is living. And Joe, I know you are really keen into, really tune into where a lot of these books you're hunting are living. So I'm just curious during the rut, is it one strategy more than the other terrain versus betting, or is it more does what do you think? Let's go to Joe first? Yeah, um, well, I yeah, it depends of course, UM but I would probably so, I'm you're right like I'm I'm fanatical, you know, yeah, I you know I live in Iowa. Majority of my huntings in Iowa. Um, I'm able to hunt even I'm hunting a lot of public land, you know. Um ah, I'm able to hunt deer for several years. You know, we've got a good age structure. Everybody knows that. So I can you know, I cover a tunnel land to find these deer. They're not easy to find. They're not in every piece of public I can find, you know, five six year old ducks. Um, and I can you know? I My goal is to detect that deer, even when it's I spread myself so thin that I don't um, I might you know, I'll get a deer on truck came. I never hunted that property, you know. I was like, oh, that's a nice four year old, you know, and they hopefully I got him on camera, you know, on January. Um. Um, and he made it through this. You know, he's gonna be around next year, and maybe I'll get a couple of years of pictures um, and then I can really and and layer on scouting spring scouting on top of that, um, maybe a hunter or two after him, Like I get a couple of years of history with a deer, and I really map out exactly how he's using that area. And almost always they're not entirely we actually talked about this here earlier, but they're not entirely on a piece of public um. They're like, you're hunting a tiny little corner of the range. You've got like one opportunity or maybe a couple opportunities to kill that beer. He's a crossing public in daylight, or he's bet in one spot on public. So um. So what I'm going am answering to answer your question A long way around. I'm relying on that last year history and it's a rut um. Usually it's this buck was cruising through this area in daylight the last year or the last couple of years. UM, And it might be to a doe betting area. UM, I do target in the hills. I tend to think the bucks shift betting um into the rut, most of them do, UM, So they're betting tends in the rut, tends to be closer to the betting um. Sometimes they're bett and even in what would otherwise be a doe betting area if it's if it's thereout they might be laying down in there. UM. But they're doing it where I knew they were doing it last year. And that's what I really key in on. UM that that's what I just laser focus. I've I've got a UM probably a majority of my dear UM that from multi year history where I knew that buck like okay, like the last ten days of October is my time to kill this buck. I need this wind direction, I'm hot to that spot and that's my chance, you know. So that's what I'm teting. So it's not necessarily more dough betting or more. It might be dough betting. It might be just a buck cruising route. UM, it might be a buck betting UM uh spot Um, that really depends, but it's I'm detecting what it is well advance. So yeah, so a lot of a lot of it probably boils down to, uh, you know, your knowledge of the individual deer um. Like when I travel, I don't I don't have that. So I'm pretty be with any type of mature book. You know what it is. I would say your strategies rock solid. You know you're looking look at terrain, Um, you look at bill betting, and it's really um, those books are moving in between the dough betting areas if you're if you time it right, um, and it's not you know, right in the middle. Even if it's right in the middle of lockdown, they're still you know, might be up looking for another hot dough. But um, you know you just need to you want as many lawyers as possible, you know, you want like we talked about those turkey feet, you know, um, and being a thermal hub and the shortest distance between a point. That's what you need a key and on. You know, if you're not worried, you know, not worrying about dear history and I know the maths best majority Like that's what gets me super excited, Like I want to kill a buck that you know I've stalked and you know, assassinate him basically. Uh, but that's not everybody's situation. That's when yeah, you just you know, you die on on the train to cover the does. Um yeah, yeah, justin Uh, I'm guessing it's probably a combination of what Joe said and what I do, depending on your familiarity with with the deer in question, would that be accurate? Yeah? Um, So if we're talking a piece that I'm familiar with in the does and where they've bet at. I think Joe touched on this earlier. So generally I find myself trying to kill a buck that has better going private land. Well, you get into the rut and they will move closer to the dough group, and I know, you know, from experience, I know generally where that's gonna be, where the bucks in the move in at and better closer to the end. So I kind of I kind of base a lot of it on that on the history. But if we're going off of you know, something that I don't know, then yeah, it's gonna be terrain. It's definitely gonna be thrain. And if I can find the hot food stores like a you know, fay, it's a year, whether it's low acorns or whatever. And I find a spot this drop in those I'm not opposed even in the rud that stit up there, because that's gonna draw all that does in and the b they're gonna come through there and check them out. So you know, it's a it's a very age of it depends on I guess if I have history with the property, we're talking something new or something I've punn it. Mm hmm, okay, So that leads me to I know we're getting a little long here. I got just a couple more questions. This is this is awesome stuff acorns food in general, um, but specifically acorns. I'll admit that this is I'm pretty man, pretty green when it comes to acorns. UM. I mean, obviously it's not hard to find red and white acorns. It doesn't play a huge strategy for me personally around home. Um, sometimes it can, but not not a lot um. And I know in the hill country it can be everything. So I just wanna touch on how big of impact does that have on your strategy when it comes to chasing these older deer. So Justin and you and I talked about it a little bit. So why why don't you start with that? Man? It's you, um finding those It depends on the year to some years you have them. Just it just seems like they're everywhere. You know, find those those spots that that they are really congregate to. I guess you know that really is a hot Hey, this term fat free, I've heard um, but you know that's the best way to put it, a feat free that all the deer are really hitting. So this year, uh, we did not have acres at all. There was a few here and there when they were dropping. It was just like that's where the deer were. Um. But yeah, it's huge. Um, if you know where the bucks are betting, and you know when they're working for the egg, they a lot of them will hang up on those those acren freeze um on the way to you know an act feel So yeah, I mean it's huge. It gives you at least an idea of where you're going to drown. You know, where he's kind of heading off even if the if the eggs over here, but there's you know, acrons up on this bridge that you know isn't in the same direction. He may head their first hanging up and eat and work his way off down to the agg So it's huge. I mean it's huge. So like if if if the one one thing I noticed down in Ohio is like bucks tend to have like obviously they're they're a little they're little core range. You know, it might encompass you know, two or three bridges, maybe more, But I just noticed that I get pictures of them and see them repeatedly on, repeatedly on. You know, these two or three ridges, they got their little areas. So you're just looking for, like if you're after a particular buck, you're just looking for that concentration of acorns in that in that system. Because like I've I've always been and I think it's I think it's inbreded me from hunting Michigan. Um, at all costs, do not, like let the deer know that you're even in the area. Um. I've never had good luck once a deer and once I've bumped a deer of mature buck, I've never had good luck even seeing that deer again. I've I've told you that justin UM. So I'm trying to wrap my mind around more when I travel out of state that you know, deer are very different, and I'm starting to see that from state to state to state there they all behave and tolerate different things. Um. But like in hill country, let's say I'm trying to find that that were the hot like you said, hot feet tree or hot little area of acorns. Man, you can cover a lot of ground because there are a lot of these uh these pieces of hill country have oaks everywhere. And I was down in southern Ohio for New Year's and I did some had some scouting down there, and it was like I walked a ton of ground and then I found fresh acorns even on on uh January one, fresh acorns on the ground. Um. But man, I had to I sure had to walk a lot to find that. And it's just like it just I just thought about all the deer that I must have just educated, you know what I mean, alright going through that area. So that's something I struggle with, um as far as like looking for food um in the hill country and and having to cover so much ground to look for that. So I don't know, what do you what do you think on that? Well? Like are you talking? So you're how familiar are you with that? I mean, you know generally where the bucks are betting at anyways, I mean outside of even not even looking at the treat the food. I mean, you know, for the most part where Yeah, well, I guess I'm thinking I'm thinking more in terms of areas that I'm not familiar with that I haven't hunted before, because you know, my plan is the hunt some new hill country, So I'm thinking more in terms of in terms of that. So yeah, obviously, you know, when you when you have an idea where these bucks are betted and where they're living, it's it's easier to kind of work around at Yeah, well, I don't know. I mean for me, I would be looking for either or either trying to find where that that there is, you know obviously it's betting at. Or if I run into saying, you know, a wide oak or something up on the top of the ridge and it just has a ton of beer signed around it, well, if you can kind of work out on the perimeter of that. You know, for the most part, these books, even in the early seasons, they're going to have some sign you know, working toward it coming in grapes and stuff and grapes and big tracks and the scrapes and stuff. I mean I've told the I mean I've killed I've killed several bucks, um, just based off that alone. Big tracks in a scrape coming through there, not even being a hundred percent you know where the where the buck is betting at it. It's a gamble. Sometimes sometimes you set up on it and he maybe coming through there at night. But I think the sign for the early season, yes, early season, right justin yeah, yeah, absolutely they're going to be close by, right right. That would be my kind of go to. I would be looking for the sign on the perimeter of that tree, working out for it. You know, it's where Ford points or a pole you know. Let me talked about earlier some of those you're betting at. Okay, So I would go about it. Joe, what's your thoughts? Yeah, Um, a lot like what he said. So this past year we had a few more acorns I think around here eastern Iowa. Then what Justice said, there's still not a big crop. So by mid to late not mid to late November, um, they were gone um and the deer were back heavy on the crop field. UM. And I will say I mean a lot of people know this, but like you can tell immediately as if you're in farm country, you can tell immediately when they corns are falling because the deer deal there's no deer, but you know their corns are falling. You don't need to in set put in the woods to know that. So um, so you know that's something I watch for. Um. And when they show back up, there's not no way corns in the area or eat them all up, you know. Um, they showed back up in the crowd fields. Um. It's like I saw starting in the November, all of a sudden, deer really they became way more visible in the crowd field um beating does and stuff um uh. And and that's actually I found how it killed one of my books this past year is I found like the last spot I think, um that I knew about where there was still acorns in the ground in late November, and I killed it. Gin old monster deer Um that that I don't know. I think he's eight years old. Um. I can't prove it, but I have Victorial camera photo or two of him from several years ago. And his teeth there warn't flat to his gums. Um. So doing them he's coming to acorns um in hand. The does that were also drawn to that that oak flap so on. That's that's you know, late November, post rut um tail under the rutum early season, everything's you know, squished down. Most of the bucks are moving way less. UM. It gets tough in the real early season. One of the big things I've struggled with is sometimes those bucks are bed and virtually with an eye sight where they're feeding. Um. And that's you know, you find where they feed and you know you're in trouble already. Uh. Sometimes but if at the same time it can be real thick. So maybe they're better within a hundred yards view if you're finding you know, you've got to scrape near by, or you see a fresh rubber two and big tracks coming to a patch oak trees. UM, don't assume you spooked them. You might be better at you know, eight yards away, but you haven't seen it yet, so you can you can have some uh luck just scouting and blind um. When you know the area and you know where the oak trees are. UM, it does help a lot, obviously, and then you can just you know, you know how to get in check though and be like, you know, are they falling? Are there any acorns? Um? Is there? You know buck sign? If there's not, you know there might be. I really focus on those big tracks just like you do, justin you know, the area might be tore up, there might be even rubs. But if I'm not finding those big tracks, I'm like, there's probably a couple of little bucks running around. I'm not gonna waste a hunt. I'm going to keep going. Um and uh, you know, try to find a big set tracks or you know, if I see a rub and it's real, toss the ground that you know, something else to you in on um that big sea? Yeah yeah, do you see that? Generally? Joe, like with the smaller the year, are the ones easily hearing the woods up? Yeah? Yeah yeah, so around here might be a little different. Obviously we've got a fairly good air structure. But the two and three year olds there are the places up. Um they just um if most of the time, if I walk into an area, you know, and there's rubs everywhere, um they are particularly high off the ground, a lot of guys get super excited and I'm like, you know, I start looking. I want to see a big whopper set of tracks or a rub that's you know, waist hie on me and I'm a tell guy, um, and then I'm like, oh, you know, then my my nose starts twitching. People. Sorry, I'm gonna quick follow up question just for people that are newer to this, that are maybe thinking, what's a whopper set of tracks? How do you quantify that? What if you had to put some kind of measurement around that that would tell you like, yeah, that that's a big one. What would you tell someone I don't, um, so that varies like region of the country. Um, and you know some I know there's a role thumber. It's like, oh, it's a four finger track. Well, I've got big hand. I'm just a large, large guy. I've got big hands, and I've never seen a four finger track made by a deer. Like a four finger track is a probably a bowl elk on me. So, like, you know, I've gone around a major tracks. Other guys don't even do that, but like a big track for me, you know, if it gets to be two and a half inches or wider um and not splayed out, ignore those running tracks. You can get a big dough looking like a giant buck if it's running especially up you know, down down a hill or something. Um. I kind of ignore the split out tracks. In soft ground they all splay out, um. But in firmer ground, UM, I want a standing or walking track, you know two and a half inches. They're wider for around here. And I think it varies. I think it's some parts of the country might be bigger. Other parts of the country probably not nearly that big. Um. That's a that's a big buck. Um. And I will say I have seen a shock like a majority you find big track it's a big, big old deer. But um, A high number of bucks that I've killed actually had doe size feet, um, like big doe size feet. Um. Not a majority, but like I don't know, like like way more than you'd think. Um. I killed a buck this year. Um, he weighed two d forty pounds field dressed mid November. And that deer I have photos of his puff and that deer had a doe size huff um. And he had a huge body and he was a you know, a hundred and seventy plush it sixteen pointer, and he had a doe size foot so big they come in all shapes and sizes, and that's not that that's not not like I've got I could pull up half a dozen other deer that I've killed that weren't similar. But you find a big track that's a big buck, you know that's still a rule. So yeah, cool, just when you try to say something, no, I mean, I agree. I think it absolutely varies own size, just like on location, like Joe was saying, because I've seen it, Like you go from you know, Missouri to Illinois and there's an older age structor over there and the tracks over there that they are just there's a there's a big difference in a big buck track in the Surrey versus Illinois from from my experience. But going back earlier, one question, So when you had that you tell that one buck going to Akarns, did you know where he was betting it? Or was that you're just setting up on sign? Yeah, I was setting up on sign, but I knew the property, so I knew he was coming from you big overgrown kind of weed field. Um that they like to put that in, um so with our foul field like cr CRP a brush year um so um, I figured he was coming up that rich system from that sure enough. Um, that's what you know you did, but I did. That was the first deer I've killed in a few years that I did not know about him really, um in advance. Um, it was I was just I was taughting more your style where I was like that, this feels like a good spot. That's a good feeling. Though I I've really come. You know, a lot of times the deer I kill around home, like you know, northern Ohio, Michigan. A lot of times I know the deer. You know, I have some familiar familiarity with them, and it's cool and it's it's cool to learn that history. But I really love that feeling like we had when we were younger, when you you don't know what's out there. And uh, that's why that's what I get to experience when I travel. Um. And I just love that the element of surprise and know it's just if that if that book makes my heart skip, you know, I'm drawing back, and I just really love that. It's a it's such a cool feeling and a lot of with so much technology now these days, sell cameras and you know, people running all kinds of crap. It's like there's hardly any secrets left, you know what I mean? And I just I love I love traveling and just leaving the cameras at home and just hunting off instinct and sign and shooting what whatever gets me excited. Yeah, I agree with definitely something to be said by that. Yeah. I keep threatening myself one of these years, I'm just gonna leave all my cameras in the cupboard and do that. And I will, It's just I haven't done it yet. Well, you know what we gotta do, Joe's we gotta make a pact that one of these years you and Dan Johnson promise not to use trails podcast. Yeah. Well that's a perfect segue into my last question. Um, what is your guys trail camp strategy in the hills? Um? Where you like to put them, how you like to check them. If it's a mix of leaving them out year round and some of you check more frequently, What types of train features, scrapes, benches, saddles, give me the give me the rundown of of how you personally use truck cameras in the hills justin Um, Yeah, it depends on a lot what you said there, Like if if it's one I'm going to leave and and I'll admit this. I got this from Joe, you know, I think his scredity it is obviously found. So I've got to wear you know, the past four or five years, I've I've left a lot of cameras out and uh, I'll put them in right in near Betting. Um. It may be on a ditch crossing, you know, or a saddle leading out of a bowl like I was talking about earlier, or some something like that, some rain feature in there de Betting area, and I'll just leave that in there for the majority of the season. I've actually got some cameras out now that I put out in late August. Haven't been back to them yet. So but the other ones, I mean around fields and stuff like that, was I can flip in and check. Um. You know, I know we talked about this before. But the ones that you can get in like that, that you're probably not going to get daylight pictures on. But you're just trying to see what's in the area, see if there is a mature buck in the area, you know, and a lot of a lot of them. I'll throw up as I'm scouting if I see a big set of tracks, you know, leading out into a field, and I'll throw the camera up to try to get an idea what it is. Um. I mean yeah, a lot of its train features. I like ditch crossing. I really like ditch crossing to funnel steer down and a lot of times too you can get a good idea of just looking at this tract phone that its crossed, what's moving through there. So for me, if that would probably be the majority of my replacement right here at this cross mm hmm. How about you, Joe. Yeah, I like dis grassings too. Um So yeah, if anybody hasn't heard my spiel, I really focus on leaving them soaked. I'm just like justin Like I've got quite umb half a dozen cameras out yet early January right now that I haven't. I've been slowly picking them up over the last few weeks. Um, but um, I've got some cameras out and um I'll be looking at you know, when bucks were, what time of year they were on camera. I recognized the deer from past years, you know, and then all the weather conditions um hm for these spots. I really like thermal hubs too. Um. I love sticking them down like in a thermal hub and figuring out you know what what conditions and exactly thermal they are very time of year. Um. Like the annual pattern, there's really pretty consistent annual patterns with hubs and the deer bucket activity through them. Um. Usually within a few days every year it lights up. UM. Some hubs, I mean they some some hubs are used earlier season. Other hubs there are more used during the rut. It depends where the betting plays out and around them, but um, hubs are really major part. UM. I used to have cameras in more easy access areas and I still have. I have a couple um here and there, but I don't anymore. And it's really just because of time. UM, My time still limited. I just um, that's that's been the struggles both of you have gonna share a little bit. I am struggle to get out there and I have such a limited time. Um. You know whatever, hunted seven or eight times this year with a bow and it stressed me out, Like that's pretty pathetic over the course of two months. Um, and uh, I don't have time to stop and check a camera like I'll still speed scout. You know, once or twice a week, but like, just if I have a camera, that's one more thing I gotta do. So I've almost entirely now. And yeah, i'll check a camera speed scouting, but um, I don't want it to be an extra thing, so I'll just um, you know, cameras there, I hang them, and I start hanging them in July August. By September, I want them all out and most of them aren't going to get touched until December. So um, that's just kind of how it works. Um. Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's pretty much. And and um, since hopefully Dan Johnson is listening, I'll tell a quick story about another bucket up on um. In early November, I was after this great big wite eight pointer um and he was um he this. I knew where he was betting. He's down in Oxbow on public land and he was coming in out of there. Um he's coming out and out of there pretty consistent the previous year. Um and and um I figured he was still alive. Um. I went down there and I hunted, and I saw him. I plan on hunting a full day. Well work called my name, and I could only hunt the morning um and I saw him that morning from a distance, and my I had to climb down at noon, and Mike Gut said, Joe, you're making a mistake. But I just could not stay in the tree. And I picked that camera up in December and half an hour after I climbed down, and I did not check. So I bring the story up because I did not check that camera. That cameras thirty yards from my spand but I had across a bunch of trails check that camera, and I did. I left it there. I could see it from my stand. Half an hour after I climbed down, that darn buck came through and I could have killed him. So that one probably burns more than any other, uh encounter I had this year. You know, Yeah, I've heard that story and you know you just near it. People, I climbed down too early. Well this year was me so well what you pulled off though this year and such limited time with a ball during bowl seasons just I mean just incredible. I mean, you killed you killed two awesome bucks. I know it was a frustrating year for you, but yeah, man, just great stuff. Mark. You got any other questions for these guys, Well, I'll say, first off, UM, awesome work all three of you guys. As far as having a hell of an interesting conversation, I've I have really enjoyed kicking back and listening and just enjoying this as a listener really. Um. But I do want to give you as an opportunity for one last thought and and this is something I like to ask people on occasion. If if I were to give you a billboard on the side of the highway, and you could put any simple message there for hunters, and let's say we're gonna stick with a hill country theme. So if you could leave one last parting bit of wisdom that you had to put on a billboard. This could be one thing you want everyone to do, or or one thing that everyone should you know remember, or one thing you don't want people screw up on. Um. And if you could synthesize it down to that one simple phrase you would put on that billboard, Um, what would that be? And I'm actually gonna ask you Andy as well. UM, So, so Joe, tell me what would your hill country billboard side of the highway? B oh man? Um, I'd probably keep it pretty big and and you know, find your own way. Um. I think that's more important than any you know, the details. You look look at the differences between Andy and myself and Justin. You know, yeah there's overlap, but like, um, you know, um or or stick to the basics. That's another one. I guess, can I get two billboards? Uh? You know something like that? Um, look at like back bare and ball with in public. Um. I just love how he hunts. Uh you know, it's completely different how I hunt. Um, he sneaks around and even crazier and justice he's like or maybe he just carries the camera. Maybe he justin doesn't you know the same thing. But um, you know he's just honest feed all the time. He's not staying in very much like he's and he's you know, having crazy good luck in many different states. Um. You know he's learned through widmanship and attention to detail. And it's completely different than the strategy I've found that works for me. So um, you know, trying new stuff, listening to new listening to different people, but really, you know, trying to find it work for you. That's a hell of a lot of billboards. Now, Joe, But what about you, Justin? You got any ideal you know, kind of stole my my answer there. I was going to say in season, I was gonna stay in season scounting because for me, I had seen my success go through the roof by not being complacent, not just going up and finding a buck bed and then hunting near that buck bed or finding big sign or what you know, whatever it be, and just being complacent and hunting that to death, or hunting you know, when I get tapportunity just on that spot that I may have found two weeks ago. Because we all know so many things are happening out there. I mean, it's it's changing day by day. So I would say in season, I like it, and Andy, what do you got? Yeah? I think I think my answer stems from the fact that I typically have hunted, uh well, pretty much all of my hill country experience has been during the rut. But mine's gonna say ten to two, ten o'clock to two pm I have had during the rut um that time frame has been my most successful for seeing big deer on their feet, um more so than in any other type of terrain. My mornings tend to be a little slow, my evenings tend to be a little slow, and that's probably because of where I'm sitting. But man, that midday time frame, you know, when the conditions and then the timing of year is is right, just deadly, So keep your butt in the tree, tended to tended to well, you definitely win for keeping it nice and tight and billboard size. Yea. Well, Uh this has been This has been great, guys, all three of you. Thank you for taking the time. I learned a lot in this one. I'm I'm excited to listen to it again and think through everything. A lot of great stories to review. And uh, I know a lot of people are going to come out the other end of this one with something to work on and something to chew on. So thank you all. And uh, I know it's only January right now as we're speaking, but good luck and about nine months or whenever your next tithing season kicks up. Uh yeah, it's kicking off right now. You know. My my season ended January tenth. So I think both of these other guys in the same boat like this, this is where we earned the next year. That's right, good stuff right there? Great parting words. All right, that was a conversation, wasn't I Mean, there was some really good stuff and they're probably one of those episodes you need to listen to a time or two to collect it all and to make sense of it all. But man, I'm thrilled with how that turned out and excited for some of these other shows to come. Stay tuned on all that. Uh. Next week, we're hoping to have another one of these habitat deep dives, so so stay tuned. Make sure you're following Wired Hunt on Instagram and Facebook. We're gonna be posting more updates there as well as the white Tail Weekly newsletter that comes out every Monday with the latest content for myself and other people on the Mediator team that are focused on Whitetail stuff. So check it out, stay tuned, Thank you for your time and attention, and until next time, stay wired to Hunt. Yeah,