00:00:03 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan in this episode number three sixties six and today I'm joined by the one and only Andre de Quisto to discuss the aggressive scouting and hunting tactics that have made him, in many people's eyes, one of the very best deer hunters in the country. All Right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Onyx. Today, we've got a heck of a show for you. This This is one that I've wanted to do for years and years but couldn't because our guest, Andre de Quisto, from from what I can see from the outside at least, was not interested in doing any kind of media or interviews or anything like this for quite a time. Now I think, gosh, I think it's been almost a decade, but that's changed, and for the first time ever, we've got the lone wolf, Andrea to Quisto here on the Wired Hunt Podcast. Now, I'm sure a lot of you guys have heard of Andre. You know about him, You've you've seen some of his stuff. Um, if you've listened to many of our podcasts over the years, you definitely heard a lot of other folks mentioned him as an influence. But if you're not familiar, here's the really quick rundown. Andre founded Lone Wolf Tree Stands and started the White Tail Addictions TV show back. I think this was in the early two thousand period ish, and during that time he made a name for himself with his deer hunting success and tactics. On top of the business kind of stuff. He he seemed to push the limit more than almost anyone else back then, and he was definitely one of the first well known hunters to popularize this mobile aggressive style of deer hunting. You know, if you've heard and I've talked about it, we've talked about in the podcast, this thing called the bumping dump tactic, for example, that's Andre's. He was also very aggressive with his hunting goals, targeting and successfully killing very specific deer and just the biggest of the big that was his thing. Um. And again this is pretty early on and he was doing this just consistently. At one point he even decided to specifically go out find and kill the state record typical buck in Wisconsin, and he ended up coming very close to that. He killed the number two buck and then I think I think it was the very next year he replaced his number two with another number two. So you know, this guy is he's on a different level. He's just he's just doing something different than a lot of people. Now. Eventually Andre decided to step away from things a bit. He sold the company, he ended white Tail Addictions, and kind of just stepped away from the public scene. But Andre's back now. He's launched a new company, it's called Lone Wolf Custom Gear, He's relaunched white Tail Addictions, uh, and he's kept on targeting those top tier white tail deer and as I mentioned, just doing this at a rate and with a degree of precision that's just about unmatched in the hunting world. Um. And I think what's what's so unique about Andre, more than just his success, is how many people point to him as being the guy that taught them how to hunt mature bucks, or who helped them jump to that next level, or who is in their opinion, the very best out there. I've talked to so many people and said, who do you think is the best deer hunter? You know, and they say, oh, Andre de Quisto and those people saying that those are guys who I think are the best of the best, So that that tells me something. From the outside looking in, it just it seems like andres Is is kind of the godfather of this aggressive, mobile kind of deer hunting culture that's picked up so much steam over the last decade. And that's all to say. I'm excited. I'm looking forward to this one. This is a conversation I've wanted to have and I'm glad we can share it with you guys. Now, a few caveats before we get into it. First, I do want to make it clear Andre is an experienced, very goal oriented hunter. You're gonna hear when he talks here. You're gonna hear that he specifically chooses to target the biggest bucks around and he focuses on antler score of those bucks to help quantify those goals and push him as a deer hunter. And I think it's great for anyone out there to have goals and to push yourself, and think it's great for each of us to do that in our own way. Now, I bring this up because I don't want you to listen to this conversation and hear how Andre quantifies his goals and talks about his goals and has his goals. I don't want you to hear that and then think that that's exactly what you have to do too. You don't. You can if you want, but you can do it your own way too. If you want to kill the first dear you see, great. If you want to pay attention to score, great. If you don't, that's great too. If you're gonna go out there and kill a year and a half old buck and you're having a blast, more power to you. Same thing. If you want to hold out for a three and a half year old or a seven and a half year old, hunt your own hunt. Don't feel pressured by anybody else. Enjoy yourself, that is the most important thing. Enjoy the whole experience. Enjoy the food, enjoy the landscape, enjoy the quiet, and yet enjoy targeting a buck or whatever kind of dear you are going after. Keep that in mind as we listen this one. Secondly, there is a decent amount of adult language in this episode, so heads up, folks. We have tried to filter some of that out, but there's still some in there. You have had fair warning. Feel free to listen on if you're okay with that, and if you are not okay with that, just go ahead and get this one. Check back in on our other episodes or the three hundred and sixty episodes we have preceding this. Lots of good stuff there. I just want to make sure we all have got that out of the way. So there we go. Qualifiers, caveats, heads up, side of the way. If you want to listen and learn from one of the most talented, focused, detail oriented, and deadly deer hunters out there, listen on alright now with me on the line is Andre Dquisto. Andre, Welcome to the show. Glad to be here. Yes, I I agree. I'm excited this is happening. You've been You've been someone on my radar ever since we started this podcast in two thousand thirteen. I think, Um, I've I've I've wanted to chat with you. Um, but you've you know, you haven't been doing a lot of these things until recently. So I'm really excited that now we can do it and have this conversation. There's there's a lot of people that are interested in and learning more from you, so I appreciate you making the time to do it. I'm glad too. It's it's interesting because especially this year, but really over the course of I don't know, the last five six years, so many of the people that have been on the show and people that have really influenced me and probably a lot of our listeners to really really good deer hunters, many of them have pointed to you as being a huge influence on them. I can't tell you how many people I have talked to have said, you know, Andre is probably the best deer hunter. I know, he's the one who taught me this thing or that thing. Um, there's like this this coaching tree of different people that all point to you as being this this big major factor on them, which which makes me wonder if if all these people are pointing to you as the best deer hunter, they know, who's the best deer hunter that you know, this is gonna this is gonna sound a little a little one side or loaded, but um, I thought about that many of times. You know, the best deer hunter out there is probably still still up and coming. Um and I know a lot of them, A lot of these guys on our White to addictions. A lot of the guys that come up, just the guys that you've talked about over the years, our phenomenal, phenomenal hunters. Um. But I'm gonna say, looking at somebody first hand and watching, UM, my son's probably not getting the credit due he is more aggressive. Um, he's kind of taking my style and and put it on Royds per se. Um. He gets more opportunities. And that's how always was. I wasn't always a great shot. I wasn't probably the best guy on arrange, but I was a guy that can get get myself more opportunities that dear to kill him. And I think he's he's he's molded out of that same cast per se. When he gets in his head, you know when he gets you okay, Um, you know it's a couple of days before that deer is on the ground. Um. He just he just fund from down and goes aggress of it. And so I'm gonna say, my son, okay, I like that from from afarest. Definitely seems like the apple didn't fall too far from the tree. Um. I gotta I gotta wonder though I've listened to your guys recent podcast series and and Cody and you are on there together and you guys have some kind of entertaining and forth. The father son. Yeah, yeah, there's always that interesting dynamic. So I gotta wonder. So you just gave him the big kudos. You just you just told everyone, tens of thousands of people out there that that Cody might be the best deer hunter out there that you know. So I gotta believe, though, there's something that he does that you just shake your head at and like think, what is he doing? Is there anything that comes to mind that you that Cody does that just either drives you nuts when it comes to deer hunting, or that you just can't believe he does it or surprises you. And a lot of you know, a lot of people think because he's he's my son and we have good leads of the property, this kid cut loose from me years ago, believe or not. He's living in a pretty big shot okay um. And he goes off on his own and and he figured stuff was on. He finally figured out once he said to me day and why the hell do you put these food pots up where we can't kill anything on him? They're set up all wrong. And I told months is, I don't want you to be able to just jump on a food plot and kill that deer. If you can figure out how to kill that deer that's going to that food plot, um, somewhere else or just not a property. I have the food plots in there. Basically the hold deer and keep them on this property. Um, but should become a better hunter, you know. So it's see all scenario. You know, we used to hunt over eight years ago. They used to be legal in Wisconsin. And b it's a tool, and it's a good tool, um, but I've seen too many guys get caught up in that trap and they're good at that, and then that's where it ends. And I'm gonna tell you once and then bucks get off them base and go and you're still hanging onto that ray of hope over there. You're you're just all burnt, your whole season up. So um, A good example of once there was a deer on here, we we probably didn't want to shoot, We're gonna let go, and it was getting towards the end and it's a pretty decent deer and I just kind of gave him the old kay to you know what if that deer as you can tie into him, take him down. And I was in the living room with my wife and I see this kid ripping up and down the streets. He had three stands on the back of his freaking a TV back. He went to one spot of the property another I'm like, what the hell is he doing? He killed that deer that night, just and he had all preset for probably different winds, and was gonna go at the different angles, but he just picked the you know, the first one and got it. And so he kind of reminds me of I was when I was younger. If I got pissed off, or a deer pissed me off, it wasn't to be too long before that thing was hitting the ground. I would just get into a different mode or a different attitude and just go at it. And now here I am, you know, thirty years older, and I'm up against me back thirty years ago, trying to trying to compete on the Saint Peter ground. So it's uh um, it's kind of a it's a new it's a new new turner, new chapter. I'll say that. Yeah, So I know that when you first got into deer hunting, you got into a current if I'm wrong on this, but does I understand that you first were into trapping, that was that was your thing, and then we got ahold of got ahold of a bow, and then that Alston took over your life. Um, what was it once you got into deer hunting that switched the light on for you? Where you went from you know, just just being out there hunting to all of a sudden hunting them down the way you do, like you describe, You've evolved and changed. Was there an aha moment? Yeah? The deer hunting, the deer hunting. I think we had made it clear in the pathwork. The deer hunting came in way later. I hunted with a bowl. Actually we started hunting with clubs before even had a bowl or a b by gun Um. I was taught by some older, older guys that were older brothers of a friend of mine, and watching somebody with their bare hands going through the woods and come out with rabbits and pheasants. Um, it's just just impressed the hell out of me. Um. These guys were like just in the military out of Vietnam and they were Um. I watched the guy literally take a pheasant out of midair with his bare hands. And I mean it just impressed the young kid, you know. So so we started doing that. We started clubbing along with him, and and then we got into trapping and snaring and we got um and I tell the story, people laugh. My first bowl kill was a rabbit. I ran out of arrows and I literally beat at the death and in the deep snow with the the re curve. Um. So, and I still have that raw mentality of I'm not still to this day a very good shot. I'm not real consistent on a range. But man, when it comes time to to put an arrow on an animal, it just seems like it's you know, instinctive, and instincts takeover and that arrow just hits home. So Um, I've always had that barbaric more thing. And I love scouting more than I do hunting, believe it or not. I enjoy more porking around looking at sign trails, tracks. Uh then I do sitting to me, sitting in the tree stand. You know, if we are boring, boring deal, it's a patient's game. UM, let's refining my skills over the years. Um. You know where you started out, you know, hunting generally I was never a big rod hunter because that's where luck to be would come into the case, and I have no luck. So well, you're hunting a specific deer, I think, um, uh, it's a whole different, full, different game. And I don't know why that I started doing that. I actually, um, just look back a bunch of pictures I had some years ago. There was a lot and guys don't realize that I was an absolute clown start now. Believe me. It wasn't always a skilled hunter. Um. And I could probably tell some stories that are embarrassing about starting out hunting and um, but it's just you know, being out there, being real perceptive. The way my my mind works, Um, I researched. I everything that I see, I don't just basically, you know, wander through the was namelessly. Everything I see here, I'm staking up. And when I've seen the currents happening, I learned something from its soul. Um. It's been a long long well it was. It been forty years now, so agatting back to that, looking at the pictures, there's a bunch of tiny little deer. I look at guys first year nowadays, I said, you should see my first year you know, you could put a grape fruit in between the the antlers of it. And there was a lot of small deer up until then. And I think you don't want to what really drove me? UM? I was always an athlete, UM a record type goal. Aren't at a guy? When I shot that first book and it was a one eight and it was like a score of something, UM, it gave me a goal to work for. I was always go orientated. And then it was like something lit up in me, and and every deer all the way up to like UM eighty in shirt. My score of a white tail had never never gone back, which I don't know if a lot of people know. I know I told a story before, but so if there was a one, then it went to one thirty two, then it went to one eight, then it went to I had I had a buck one year who was in the fifties. I let him go three different times to shoot a deer that was like one fifty seven, like five inches bigger than the one that was there. I was just had that set in my mind. So UM always been going atated, always about to score, and still to this day it's UM. You're always looking for something bigger than you had before, um you know, which which could get pretty tough nowadays too. So has that ever has that ever come back to bite you? Or have you ever felt like that's you ended up not being happy with something because of the score, or is it? Is it that gold driven thing always been good because I never shot anythings more than I wanted to. So whatever, I shop and I a whole ton of deer that are like a hundred and sixty nine inches. So when I once I started getting to the point where the deer were so big that you're you're probably not gonna, you know, find one for every five years, I set my goal to like net Boone and Crockett type deer and and it's weird, boy, I see it here, and I know, I just know they're going to be an inch short. That one that I took just missed the state record by like an inch and a half. Dude, I knew on the hoof it was gonna be about an inch and a half short. Ended up being an inch and and that's frustrating. But um so I never really made a mistake of going, you know, I'm looking for a one seventy and shoot, I'm one fifty. I just didn't happen. And it's you know, it's a million miles apart. So uh no, I never regretted. Really, Um, you know, my my goal was to shoot a typical and the tube on a range. My my ultimate goal was to have a state record someday in Wisconsin. I failed at that toise, Um, I shot one that would have been number two in Illinois one year to missed that number one, And then I always had this fantasy to shoot a world record typical book and that's like a needle in a haystack. But I'm gonna tell you there they're out there. Um they're getting shot with guns or finding sheds, and but it's still just you have no idea what you know, what accomplishing a goal like that could be. And I'm happy and sad to say I've been in the game with two that I think would have made it and I got my ass kicked both times. So um it was. It was a fun, fun run. Now I don't know if I if I got you know, fueling the tank to to ever achieved that again. But um, I'm not traveling states, you know, kind of parking in Iowa, I could shoot legally three bucks a year out here, and I don't you know, I shoot a buck here there. Um. And now that the show is back on and we're doing products, you know, things are changing a little bit. Yeah, that's that's what I was kind of wondering, was if if you still have that drive to try to chase that two others typical or that record. But it sounds like kind of settling into new set of goals. Yeah. Well, don't get me wrong, buddy, you told me where one's at, I'll probably there with to do it. Yeah. So somebody on our page made a statement like, well we should find a deer for Andre to hunt and um on some public just tell the colony is where of that and let him let him go at it. Dude, You find that dear and use the use the caliber number one. I'll be there camping out and I will I will go ahead them long and hard until I die. It's just that there's not you know, with cameras now you kind of know what your deults. Even on our property, we know just a lot everything that's on earlier. Um, So for you to have something on the piece that you're on that caliber, that's it. That's like winning a lot of really um or being awful lucky to it. So yeah, yeah, when it comes to you know what you would do in that situation. Let's say if someone said, I've got this buck. This probably a world record, Andre, come take a swing at it. Um. I want to kind of understand and how you would go about tracking down a buck like that. But before that, I kind of want to try to understand a little bit better how you approach this from the mental side of things, because I think when I listen to talk, when I see the things you do, you've got to really in a you know, an incredible sense of like the xs and os of deer hunting and how to set up and all that. But then you also have this mindset and this drive that I think separates you two and and and I'm curious if we were trying to recreate the next best deer hunter, and I told you that you could either give him your mental drive or your your mental kind of just state that you take in hunting. You can either give them that, or you can give them all of the XS and o's analogy you have, but not both. Which would you say is more important? You know, I wouldn't want to give him what I have. I think, and I don't know this for sure on all the studies on it, but people are realize that I'm the flexic and I have some learning kind of disabilities that are frustrating and older I get and I look at stuff totally different than other people do. And and I don't know if that helps in the game of white tail hunting, but it is frustrating in just the world of you know, navigating through through just life. So if a guy had to have that, if that's what helps me read sign more and and dissect things more, um I'd give them that ability. But I should help and wish it on him in his normal day to day is because um, I mean, I can't, like I explained things as simple as I'll walk up to a door handle and I'll grab ahold of it and open up. And I want to know why somebody designed that thing the shape that they did that, Why what what drew him to do that? Or these ice cubes that actually blocked the fluid from from a cup that you're drinking out of, Like what moron and creaking design and ice cube that you know, and it's there, it's everywhere. Why hasn't somebody changed that? Why hasn't somebody done some about So when I'm in the woods and I see stuff, it's, um, I give it. For example, we went we went to a spot in Quincy only once, and I took a friend of mine and we did some scouting and I just to this christ. I had part of my friends. But I went through a spot that I just thought had it through it. I was like, and I just walked him through it, and I watched him neandering through looking at us. What do you think of the spot? And he's looking up in the trees. Yeah, that sounds like you can get a tree stand in here? Like what is the having a good good a tree stand here or a spot you know, being able to put a stand in or having a decent spot for a tree stand You happen to do it. Anything you're looking for here, you look for the deer first, the tree stands a tool. Uh. You read the sign and you go hunt the spot and you apply when direction thermal stands to that and you go after him. Um, you made a statement about what I would do to go after him. I know somebody another podcast mentioned that I was talking to about me to somebody else and mentioned a friend of mine that it was kind of a little cocky and and he was kind of going to bathroom. No, No, he's really not. And I said, what are you talking about. I'm as cocky as they get when it comes to what I want to do. So I don't, man, I have all the confidence in the world. I will not be intimidated by just an animal. I've been in the game enough time. Um. So that's part of it where most guys are gonna have to get over. You're gonna have to kill some caliber animals under your belt and you comfortable. Otherwise you're gonna be shaking in your boots when they come in or um. But I mean I just like I said, I go after I go after it a lot, a lot harder and more confident than most most guys ever would so uh to the deer that we were hunting in Wisconsin, I had to shut to it the year before I came close to killing it. Thank god I didn't. It would have been you know, Boone Crockett that year. But just at the last second he throws up and just wouldn't step on a swamp, found a shot to it, and then we were, you know, had cameras out that was the old home cameras years ago, and me and a buddy of mine went to Walgreens and we were looking through the pictures and boom, there he was. Right. I look over my friend and his jaws dropped. I'm looking. We're looking around like it's just you know, somebody looking at they're gonna see this like it was funny. But he's like, he's like Storry said, well, and I'm just like ready to get the hill out of and what are you gonna do? I don't know what you're gonna do, but I'm gonna swamp and killing his buck. And I left and he just he didn't know what to do, you know, so kind of an experience hunter, but but a good guy. I went home and it just I tore all my ship out through it all on the freaking uh kitchen table, I started, what what do I need here? What I absolutely do not need. I'm gonna lighten the stuff started taking up silence and everything. I was getting ready for the game because the games felt to begin. Then I had some brainstorm that I was gonna take a camera with me. This is when we were doing the show and I was gonna go into the swamp and hunt this down and knee high muck. And I got in about two days and I thought, Okay, this this ain't gonna happen. This is a physical shift. So I needed that piece of information that I always need. I need to know where he betted. I know what he did last year. I kind of got some history of this here. I went into where I thought he was and I jumped that sucker out of his bed and I backed out, and I set up on that betting area and I just waited um to pre rut where he showed up last year on that field. And believe it or not, that deer showed up the same freaking day. It did because my brother was actually hunting that field and seeing that deer um the first day I showed up and it was running our our clover food plot there. So there, I kind of had enough to know that I'm not going to be able to go in there every day, in and out. You know, with all the filmings, it's a burden. You know. We lightened it up, we've made it easier, but it's it's it's again, it's more weight, it's more equipment. Um, so I basically uh took the knowledge and new and and set up and it and it all panned out and worked out. Um, he was better right where he was before made the move, and I was right there to put an air on him. So UM, I've heard you say in the past that you don't give a lot of value to year old sign that you mostly just prefer like red hot fresh sign. Um. But it sounds like maybe in some cases you do look at some of the older stuff or I guess, what do you find valuable from offseason scouting? What can we pick up? What are you doing? So on that deer, there was no age old sign. It was just the history of that deer living on that property. But I went and bumped him out of his bed a week before I killed him. So that's pretty red hot that he was living in there. And it's just seeing where the buck was bettered. I mean, there's nothing all the same capitiles, redbrush, no structural just that sweet spot that that deer probably grew up in. A Funny thing too, I was like the add this, I found a shed after that deer was harvested, and just the chips in the muck, And believe it or not, it was a shed to that deer. I still got that in my garage from two years earlier. I don't know if that was kind of some weird omen or whatever, but so that deer grew up on that property lived there. Um, you gotta be on red hot signs. You know all that information you got from last year that you know it's um where rubs were made and all that stuff. Stuff changes, and I've never, um, I've never been able to sit confident spot that I didn't know, like what was over the next hill or what I pictured that deer sitting there. I picture him in his bed, and I picture him. I wanted to get up and do what he's gonna do. So it's like I said, I think I come in the end of a totally different um aspect, and a lot of guys do that. Just will just sit there and all of a sudden, the deer will show up. You know. Um, I'm actually thinking this damn thing in You're wishing to found that trail and put them into scenario that I've played in my mind a million times and it's all coming together. It's um. Um, it's just like sports. You know, you you're practice in your mind that perfect volt or perfect lift or um, you've you've been here, you've lived already and now it's you know it's coming toolition. So um, So there's about ten tho things I want to drill into a little bit more on what you just mentioned. But but first, if if the red hot sign is is the very most important stuff, it's all that in season stuff. What what are you doing like right now until opening day? Is there is there something valuable that we can be getting preseason? For me? That that's all I need to know, right. I mean, I know this, um, and I may statement there's pieces of this property I haven't been on. Every year we shout help, we go to spots that you know, we just don't go into because it's just it doesn't it doesn't make any sense too. But I know this piece of property and style, if a deer shows up, I'm basically all about inventory. So I gotta know that that deer is there. And my biggest thing from all the years is and what what cameras really did for me is, um, I don't want to have to make a last minute decision. Um. Every time I've ever had to do that kind of screwed up. If it's a deer I want to harvest. If I'm already committed to that animal and I see him, man, there's a lot better chance that deer's getting killed. And you know here he's coming down a trail. He's at forty now he's produced. He big enough. You know my should I shoot him? Should? I? Not? Very very bad situation to be on. Um, it's it's just you know, ripe with mistakes. So UM, I like to do that inventory. No, they're there, and if that deer's on this property, I mean, if I can't tie into that deer in a season long, um, I think I'm not worth the salt. I'm made it. You know, do you do you have a buck that you've got your eyes on yet? Do you have the one picked out? Uh? We found some chats. Hopefully he's back and if it's invite one of those it feels back, it will be it's a one or none season. Um. Yeah, I'll go after him hard. I do have a pretty tough competitor to go against. Um, which it will make things a little more interesting. But UM, I'm not going to have him back office or UM. If it's out there, you know he's got the opportunity to get it, but yeah, it'll be it'll be a deer that I would be happy harveston and one that I love to play the game with um and hopefully doesn't just roll over and and and play debt on me. And he gives me a run for my money this year, and I have another good deal of memories to Yeah, I've heard that you liked those deer that make you work for him through a long period of ups and downs. I think I think I remember hearing you talking about a buck that was maybe your most memorable one took you just through the wringer and had all sorts of mishaps. Then when you finally killed them, it it means so much more, right, is that? Is that stity case? So I'm looking at that deer right now. It's in the living room and it's a it's a hundred and fifty seven inch growth. It shouldn't be in that room. But that deer there, uh, all of them probably gave me the biggest run for my money. So um, yeah, it's I don't know if it's I'm my mile's favorite, because she said I was the worst, almost killed her in birth and and the pain and agony she went through. There must be some kind of psychotic freaking bond with that type of misery that just um connects to the stuff so um that that dear dude, I had tears in my eyes. It was like the last freaking day I had the opportunity I could not get my bull back. I had the worst buck fever all that season built up, and I was like, and everything I could do is get that thing back. It was the ultimate ultimate high for a bull hunt that I've experienced. So what what did that buck teach you? Was there anything that after that season and all those trials and tribulations, is there anything point to like, Wow, I really came by all those challenges now learning this thing, I don't know if I really learned the last stitch effort where people talk about that right on the edge of that wind. I know that the setup that I set up the last final one because I've seen him from distance come come out of that area, and I knew it was gonna be a tough wind deal and I had to play it on the edge. He did come out, he started to win, and he started even easing a little more of my way to type, you know, to get as much as he could, and if you just took one more step you probably got he'd have got my sentiment gone. But I just played that one to the tea. Um. But like I said, he you know, he was running circles around me the whole year. So I don't I don't know if, but that was the thing that that that got me that specific beer. So, UM, that wind setup seems to be something that you've really fine tuned. Yeah, and we can go into depth about all of that. That's um. Yeah, it's the most important thing with with hunting, sun, sund control of winds and things like that. So yeah, I do want to break that down, but I want to I want to first figure out one thing. Um, this Buckey's mentioned you said that you were hunting all the way through the season. I'm not sure exactly how which part of the season it was, but I'm assuming it was most of the year. Um. I've heard you talk about that when you find a buck that you want, you start hunting him on October one, on opening day, and you stay on him. You just keep getting after and getting after him. And and what I don't understand is how you can do that without blowing them out of there, without busting your chances. I'm always so worried about you know, that's the thing. Everyone's so worried about that. How do you manage that? Well? You? I mean, it's experienced and it's you can't. So I've seen it enough because I scalped. Dude, I've I scaled so much and I take it right to the edge. I gets so close to some of these big books that you take. You take it a little too far. And dude, I've literally had it where I've just poking around some some thickets and cattails and red brusher. I think these things that are being this whole mess and I I turned on my left and here is this monster freaking stare minutes who as we make eye contact, boomies over you just all the time. Like I knew, I should have stopped at that freaking tree that I picked out before. I want to poke a little further and a little deeper. And sometimes you just take it a little but you you learn. And I'm gonna tell you right now, I don't care. And you got guys can argue up in your body. I've seen it so many times and done it so many times. You are not gonna burn a white tail out of his out of his home range. They'll run circles around you, he'll sit tight, still dark, or he'll know you're hunting, but um, you're not gonna do it. And then you get the guys all the time that to say, well, you know, and and and they're right, they got small properties and things of that nature. Um that they have to be a little more careful. What so that's that's probably not a technique for a guy that's got you know, ten acres a hunt or whatever. But I had a pretty substantial lease down in Illinois and used to have it to myself a lot of times. And I swear to god, them deer would come out. I see him come out of a a field edge, and they'd be freaking looking around, like where is he gonna where is he gonna come from from this time? That's the kind of look that they had in their face. And but if their range, uh and and you know some of these bigger here, dominant deer, they're they're in the king pin area. You can piss over their scrapes. They're gonna piss over you. They'll see where you're know where you're sitting a standing, I'll come and a rip and I treat that you're in there. They're sending you a message, you're sutting down message and it's a it's a it's an enjoying game. Man. You're getting me pumped and want to get out there and look around now again here, So I got work to do. Yeah, I don't want to get you in trouble and get you behind on orders or anything. So much of what you're doing is is just getting aggressive with that scouting and pinpointing exactly what they're doing, and then you're adjusting and then search more than a just but what does that look like just prior to the season. So I'm just trying to like ease our way into October one and opening day. What do you when does that scouting start? It's it's totally different if it's a whole new property that would have attacking or if it's the property since the property I know inside now, right, So I just need to know now my biggest thing right now, and I haven't done it. I need to get more cameras out and I need to get spread out more and I need to get a glimpse that this deer is back this year, and if he's back then from what I know about him from last year, I know he betted last year and his whole um, this whole scenario, I don't have to get as crazy as I I would to go in, you know, aggressively. I've already learned this piece of property. If this is a new piece of property, I want to learn a piece of property inside now, because I cannot stand, like I said, sitting in a tree stand and not knowing what is over that next hill and what's over the next hill there. I got this this mind that just as mechanical, and that I need to have all of that puzzle or pieces to start putting together. So I don't go in. You know, if you go go in a handful of a piece of puzzle and I just in my mind, it just won't work. So and the other thing I say too was this, I look at things different than other people. For you to just jump in and try and do what I do if you don't know how to read or um perceive, I'm going to the point now where uh you know, they said, you know you need to be reading that sign and get in there. You need to be in the spot that signs will be made next and ahead of that game, not like one step behind. Um. So coming up all the way reading sign, you know, I see a fresh track, I get on it right away. It seems like me. If you see something, you pounce on it right away. You don't ever want to sit because in two days it changes up. So if you're right there, right there, right there, you're in your best scenario. Um. But imagine now being able to know one enough that the seasons changing, the crops are coming down, is a different stage of the rout. You just start going and looking. You're gonna be where that deer is gonna be making us next sign. You're already step ahead of him. Um. And when you get into that state of the game, I mean your your chances go up. Um. Now, is that just experience that gets you from the point where you're hunting, you know, week goal sign to now predicting where sign is going to be? Is that just time? It's just from years and years of all. Like I said, I still enjoy the to stay looking around, and I did it again last year. There was one to hear during get killed by a neighbor. But a couple of years ago where I was doing on the fold of the front of mine. I'm sitting in the stand, I know, and and it's like, you know, this is it's a phenomenal spot. It's usually when I was spot it's like, man, it's just not happening. I gotta get get down and just over the freak just so I can talk about just over the hill, there was a freaking party going on. There was a doll and heating there, and that buckles in there chasing around. I could almost shot that thing if I would have been a good shot along just since I got shot that thing on the ground, it was not leaving a dolls tight. I tried to make a move to another stand where they were going through, and they just got around me. And it was like and I was sitting for two days there in the in an excellent spot actually, And you know, if I would have poked around a little bit more than I um like I normally do, I probably would have been over the hill sitting and got my opportunity out of the stand. So it's just you know, when that changes, and then that dog goes out of heat or whatever, he chases across the road or and go some other doll and it's you know, you're not gonna see that buck for another who those ones the late season, you know, so um, get out why it's hot, staying at while it's hot, don't ever backpedal. The biggest thing in UH tragedy ever seen is people saying that they don't want to over hunt the stand that it's they don't want to screw it up, or you know what it is. It's the feel of fear of failure. And I've failed so many fricking times at this. And if you're gonna sit and you're gonna worry about bumping that deer, messing up And that's what we've all been talked to d from all the articles, from all the years, you know, leave the think where you do this, do that, And I've just from experience learning it is totally not that way. Um. And you know, some guys could still argue with to this day. But I watched, you know, I I hunt betting areas. I'm seeing big bucket sit down on their beds come out of here. I'm watching, you know, groups of coyotes running them off their betting areas and turn right around, coming back right to the same bed. I'm watching, you know, myself bumping them out and I'm going right back to the bed. So I don't know where all that stuff came from, but I believe everything my eyes tell me, and not what anybody, um, you know, not what I hear anybody else calls me. So yeah, that's the that's the tough thing for so many people is everything they know is from somebody else, at least until they have ten fifteen years of their own experience to finally start pointing back on you know. And you know, guys, are these guys that we got on our crew, it's it's it's funny. And I had guys to me, you know, Um, they look at me to be a big serious hunter, and I want you pay so much attention to what you know, what I'm saying, I don't. I'm not. I'm not. I'm I'm thinking I'm not having it. Well, your little failures or what you're doing and all little piece of information that I can get and learn and I can maybe tell you something, honor. Um, I'm not. You know, they still think you can teach an old dog, you know, new tricks, but um, my mind is just that way. I could never ever have enough information or piece of the puzzle, or it's it's it's my it's a blessing, I guess, and it's a curse. I'll tell you in so Mac every night, all my best ideas come at three in the morning. Um, I think about him. They topped my head and I write them down. So it's um and a deer or two of these deer. I'm thinking. I literally a sitting I will sit here and think about a a deer, a fawn that's on his property, and just imagining if that's that's the one in five years you're gonna be here, Is you're gonna make it the kind OF's gonna get him? You know? Is he gonna he'll he'll leave you know at two and a half a couple of years, will you make it back? Somebody kill him? And all these things that just you know, you can't get that out of your head. Uh, it's been just a it's it's I'd like to turn it off if I could, for at least one minute, but I can't. I got, I got there's a lot of people listening right now that I feel a little bit better knowing that they're not the only one going crazy. For white tails sitting up late at night. It's it's a bug, that's uh, the bug you get bit by and you can never you can never get that first high back man. You just keep chasing it and chasing it, and um uh it's it's it's crazy. And I've seen some guys is crazy and crazy as me and uh getting back that too somebody. So everybody settles into what works for him too. So I mean there's guys that are successful, rattling guys successful calling I come from a big, high pressured area. Um my success came from land Low. And even though I'd have this kast and I messed everything up and start all up, I'm in a spot that's virgin, that hasn't been messed up. That I read the sign and I'm capturing that a little moment of time where you know, I'm gonna messed it up for everybody else in the fricking forty but I'm on the I will be on that that deer, and I mean it's almost it got scary. After a while. I could walk up and down the field edge, the big field edge hunter in the in that bigger north country years ago over the you'd have vast um timber land bordering up against some dairy farms, so some of them deer would come out that we'd shine late at night and there'd be deery. Nobody ever killed. You never see you can want to wear the hell is that, you know, living you never see him on poles, but that they could be coming from five miles back in the uh Cedar swamps and coming to the milk or clover fields, being in the middle of night, and so I have an opportunity to see a lot of that. But I could walk up and down the field, read design and almost be on a decent buck and be able to kill it just about every second time, which you know, I think that's some kind of knack that I got to be able to do that. Um, I can do it now and and and it's weird. Even good friends he used to think that I was lying to him. I had a buddy that filled up in Illinois once and I said, why the hell did you shoot that buck? There's just monsters everywhere on here. And he said, well, this is a decent bucket. I said, well, it's really not for here. I says, well, I lost it in the son. So I took it down. It was a nice bucket, so he filled up early and I felt sorry that you just have to burn a whole week sitting there as well. Grab the camera and you can follow me around. Then we went and scouted four new sits on that property. I could have shot four different bucks over one sixty and a. Uh. The last sit on an evening post on a pond, I could have shot a hundred and seventy four inch nine point. It came by us, but the pond drink came by. It went to full drawing at you videoed and he's like, what the frick was wrong with that? I said, there's a twelve point typical on his property. That's what I'm here for, and that's what I want. And I know it was one steventy four because the neighbor shot him shockedun season uh and it scored that. So we were in the camp too, and I was telling a few other guys every day. I was coming in and standing I seen this, and I seen enough that somebody got smart, you know, and said, yeah, right, what do you see this? What do you see today? Uh? You know this and that as well? No, you know, four bucks over one fifty and uh, and and this one here and he put you put it in the whole BCR and in the TV. And all the guys are looking with their jaws dropped, nobody seeing nothing. Um. But they're sitting in a stand at maybe an outfitter put up that was set up for the rut um. You know, all this going on all around them, and they're they're stuck in one spot. And I'm not like that though, And I've been like that from a little on. You know, you you go out of aggressive, you it's honey, hunt them down, you know, it's not sitting there waiting from the kill him Stoll. Yeah, I want to. I want to dissect what you mean by hunting down like that? So can you walk me through literally, Like, let's say you you hunt somewhere October, first opening day, and you don't kill your buck that night. When you say that, you're gonna start scout like literally the next day, are you walking around? Where do you walk around? What are you thinking about? Like? Give me the exact details my metholical annihilation of a property once you know, once you learn it, I do a perimeter check, I read everything going out of there, and then I can go in and dissect you inside of it. I learned the property. If I already learned it, and I have that and I'm hunting, I will be in my post in the morning. I will sit and and many of times I get down way too early because I'm so anxious and wanting to go poke around and look at look at news signs and work. I'm back a little further so I'll be in my stand when I get down in the morning. I'm fresh, I haven't been sweated up, i haven't been at a restaurant. All my clothes are clean. Everything. Now I get down and I do some looking around, and then I picked my next spot. I'll pick a spot maybe for a that i'll actually hunt on a morning and evening. Um spot, and then I'll hunt that, and I'll get down and look around. It's a daily, daily grind. Unless you think you got him pinned down and he's coming out of a certain draw every day and it's a matter of just tying into him, then you kind of leave it alone. But you've gotta things are things change up, you know. In October is a tough a tough time to hunt. Things are touchy. Thence control is very, very difficult then, and I just enjoy hunting. I'll set up on a deer a bedded and I'll hear him coughing and hacking in that bed, uh from us from before light. So when I get down, and he never got up and never moves out of it, and according to moon phase, he probably wasn't gonna But I'm a hunter. I'm there. You know, if a coyote bumped him, or for some reason maybe he did decided to get up and spread to make a move or wind change or whatever, I'm gonna be there. I'm not just gonna not hunt it. So um, like a wolf man, just get on it and just keep keep on him and read the sign and then and you'll you will be surprised. Uh, and what you'll find when you you start poking around. The grass sometimes is way greener on the other side of the hill. So when you stay poking around, what do you like? Are you just leaving your tree stand and heading back towards the truck in their house in the general direction and kind of looking here and there, or are you saying, I know there's a betting year here, I want to look at that that kind of thing. Yeah, So, um, forget about going back. If you did go back and get cleaned up. We do that once we find a nice spotsile rights there. Or if you're working a buck and you're trying to work him back, maybe he's coming out a little too late, so you're gonna try and get closer to bed, so you're gonna be Remember I talked about going too far and then and then getting a little too close. So you work your way back in and you uh, maybe set up another stand. Then you can go back the car, grab your stuff, read set up that stand. Maybe climbing there in the morning, are given an evening hunt and then and just keep doing that. You're not going to look for a whole another deer going to look for a whole another spots. You're kind of year after that one deer and you're trying to figure out on that at that time of year, what he's gonna do, where he's gonna be, and um, and and just keep methodically going after him, you know, and sometimes you got the spot where you don't need to you're you're in the right spot. It could be a matter of time with him getting up early enough and moving out. Perfect example that once is the last couple of days of the week of the season. Uh, friends of mine, I was hunting particular piece and the sign was there, the deer, a group of bucks is coming out awesome bottoms through this farm. Miland I had onto the golf course and their tracks were there every day, fresh coming through there, every day coming through a fresh And then he's like, what are you gonna do a burnier the rest of your week? Um, I got the best because the deer I want coming through here. I got a week left. What am I gonna go look for some other freaking deer in five days? And I held it out and held it out, and I killed one day for who knows our reasons. So people might have bumped them or whatever the hell. The deal was. They got up and they moved early and came through and I think that one was one sixty seven. It was a It was a nice bucket. I held him my hold to my my gun. So, um man, when you when you talk about, you know, moving in on this buck, you where he's not moving yet during daylight or not where you're at, so you're pushing a little farther. What is the sign that you're seeing that, Like, what's the threshold of sign that you have to pass to be okay, I need to set up here. Is it the first good rub or you have to have a a ton of fresh rubs? Like what makes you stop? So you'll see something? You'll go and you know there'll be mediocre signing around there, and all of a sudden you're you know you're you're getting in there and poke around and um, like last year there was a huge fresh, ripped up rubs already marketing deer markets territory. Often I uh, it was a buck that I didn't want to chase. But in science hindsight, the one I was after, I might have been running that same circuit when I dove in a little deeper. Um, I think it was a week later. I wish I would have dolved in a little deeper the first time I seen those rubs, because there was a rub line to this property, dude, besides your waist chest, that they had this empire interior just through all this uh major parts think just ripped ahead. I would I would have probably liked the gut on that a little earlier than I did. Um. Look, there's the kind of thing that if you sat on the field edge you know, and that's going on like a hundred and fifty yards in September, and you're sitting in there not do anything. Come out every night, and that deer's in there rubbing things and hanging back or doing whatever hell he's doing there. You know. So um, I'm telling you, you you get you look around, you're gonna see it. You look and you will find they are where they are. Just like fishing, I mean, what do you do? Just go beat the freaking water to a throp or start pumping shot into the fields hoping to hit a pheasant. Um, take a man, go find a fish, you know, pattern them and go after him, you know, and if they ain't biting, make them bite. Okay, mean so yeah, you I'm trying to think about the right way. I wanna I wanna process a perfect example how how aggressive a guy could get. So back in the day with everybody and your brother baiting everybody thought the big deer nocturnal, they don't come in. They don't come in because you're you're hunting over your bait. You're shooting everything that comes in there. I could literally go on a property. I can run the whole property, kick every freaking deer up on the property and go jump in the bait that deer was using in almost ninety per cent of time that deer would come in before dark. He got up off his ass, and he moved through his normal pattern circuit um. I'm doing one man drives on big deer. I'm loading up with lots I'm doing. I'm doing some aggressive stuff that you know, in the hands of the wrong guy might you know, it might not work from But I've showed a few other guys to do this and they're, uh, don't be doing it while I'm on the same piece of property you're at. You know, I don't want to be the one freaking everything up and they capitalize on it. But yeah, yes, you know, I know a big part of of you know, dialing in these deer is figuring out where they're betting. What are you doing? Like, what's the next step to try to dial in exactly where they're betting, Because you know, I think a lot of hunters have a situation like this where they think, I think this buck is betting in this swamp somewhere. There's like a five acre air he's somewhere, and I'm pretty sure he's betting in there. But I think with you you go more detail than that, right, Well, I do and I don't. So we have spots on here where there's uh and and I went and I walked at um walked at the shut hunting this year, Um that these bucks come out of this draw there. We know they're better just inside there, because that's I'll get up and they'll they'll come out. We didn't need to go in there and bump modity or know that, but we know that from experience. But now when I walked in there, actually for the first time I looked around, it's like, even if you wanted to go in there, these things are like freaking goats on the side of freaking cliffs and uh rock croppings that you're probably not gonna kill that buck right in that bed, but you can kill him in the corridor. And that's what my son, I think, like to do. He likes to get the corridors coming in and out of that uh uh that betting area where um again, I need that piece of information. It's like in my mind, if I see exactly where that buck is betting, and we had a piece um in Wisconsin that there was there's three betting areas on this property. One right behind the kennels, a guy had a like ten dogs in there, and all the big bucks are better right up against his farmhouse right back at the kennels. There was one in the uh, the middle of the swamp that I could go off right in there any day, walk right for that tree and knocked that big bastard in off there. Um. And then it was the third one was kind of more open on hedgerows where you can see a long way coming. Those big bucks on that property are going to be in one of those, just from years experience. During one of those, when the weekend come around and there's another ten guys hunting the property, all of the bucks will just run right up against that freaking uh that kennel and sit till freaking pitch dark. And you know who was sitting off at that kennel with about forty yards and watching him get up when the dogs started freaking barking at how? It was me? And at one time I screwed up and learned I ended up actually dragging a deer out of there, and somebody wanted the guys followed that drag back and started nosing around here. Had I had to back off a little bit, so he wouldn't find that that sweet spot. But um, those deer, you know, they get accustomed to whatever the pressure is. And then um and I would so a little snaker. I would get there and do my scouting on hunting on a Thursday a couple of days before, and then I let those guys have all the scraps for the weekend once once I got had my way with it. So there's a lot of different things you can do. Um, but you learn that stuff, and once you learn it, you don't I don't have to go there again. I could set up on you know, betting area be you know or um, you know when they pushed them up against the channels. Now there's nobody on the property and you're down maybe in that swamp or hanging down there, then they gotta go set up on a spot that's coming off there. So there's there's some things that other hunters out there that focus on. Betting area is a lot like to point to to help people like identify this is a buck betting area, this is a doughe betting area. Um, when you're out there, what are the things that help you differentiate? Is it simply a big rub and a big bed, or what is it that tells you, okay, this is a buck betting area, a big and I don't I hate that terminology buck betting area that just a million times a buck's betting areas where it's betting. It's going to be that new button monitor. It could be in my woods here. Um, during late season, it's in the middle of an open hardwoods during gun season, big huge bucks. I can look at right off my my porch at a big draw that's there, and I'll watch these slobs just come right up in there in bed. They're safe from all the gun hunters. Um. It is where it is now. There's areas that once you find them, even if a deer is killed, it seems like the bigger, more mature deer they're they're there for a reason. Okay. So where it drives you not to try and think of why it is? Forget about why it is? Why is it every time I walk for this draw, I jump a huge buck. I mean a guy, you know you do it two or three times, four times? You know at some point in time you gotta get in your brain. Now, I don't to hunt this spot here can deer's always here, you know. Uh. And when you find those spots their gold, then you don't have to be Then you can set up on him, stay out of there and evening hunt, slide in there for only morning hunts and the winds right and you think that's gonna be a good And you got a awesome and I got a bunch of spots like that. You've got awesome spots to hunt all the time, you know. Um. Yeah, So going back to your your your betting area. If you've got a buck that you know is betting in like a five acre piece of that swamp, learn where he's coming and out of here. Go look at the tracks. He leaves big tracks behind, you know uh. And and to identify a box bed, obviously a buck is a big animal, leaves a big track, It leaves a big freaking turn behind and uh leaves a little sign of aggression and stick your freaking nose in one. If you want to smell a buck bed, they smell like get um and does smell sweet. Same thing with the urine, I mean, if he's step pissing the freaking on the grass, take a whiff of it. You can tell a buck from a doll um. Yeah, yeah, I'm being serious that the dose well sweet, I could smell a freaking rutting buck from from a hunter yards away many And here's another thing that's funny. I I got two huge nose in my face, right, you know what it works? It's I joke about it. But I have a more sensitive smelling capability. I think that most people do. And my wife's like, why don't you you know you don't have that shirt's not dirty? You know, um, you don't need to wash it again. If if there's a shirt in my closet that's was not washed, I could sniff that some of uch. Honestly, as soon as I opened that tricking deal. And when I'm walking through the woods, I get senses of so if you can picture what a deer would to do it as nose, it's almost like walking into a fricking brick wall. That's how That's how good they can smell. Um. And you've got to get that in your head, um and learn that and then that that will help you a long ways. And this just chasing around, chasing around his white filter, that's a that's a major major um thing with his gears. That they're using them that nose their advantage all the time, and um when I learned to use it myself in my advantage. So so you you come on a buck or you come on a bed, and you you look at it. You see it's a big impression on the ground. You see there's some big turds. You take a whiff. It's got that bucky smell. What else do you do? I don't need to take the whip I got. I could, I could, I could see it's a bus bed already. So so that's the right now. I was just so we couldn't run him in a roald here we run to get inventory and stuff, and they're not hitting him this year for is good. And I'm telling my my buddy, I says, We've got this huge, huge buck bed right on the edge of the bean field in the grass, not even going back in Teptember, and he ain't a hundred yards from you know, your mineral and your corn filery to get a picture of him, and he's not even going over and not acknowledging it. So do you want to get a picture of him, You got to take your camera and go slide over to where where he's better, or where he's feeding them beans. You gotta start changing up and moving around, you know, you gotta read that. So if a guy is accustomed to doing this scenario, the fine inmentory every year this periodes death not a failure because they're not for some reason going to them. I got a theory of why they're not this year, but um, I don't know if it's right or not. But um, well, we got extremely um high amount of coons again this year, and it seems like every time, and I know they don't they don't really bother them. I've actually seen big light they'll kill raccoons that come to Bates late season and stuff. But I think with all that chaos and all that pistons ship on there and there's so much food from now, they don't need to be visiting that they you know that they're seeing everything going to that mineral from where he's better right now. He's not that far away on the edge of the field. So um, it could have something to do with that, or maybe this year they don't need to the minerals as much as they normally does. So those things that I would love to know the answer to that, but I don't but I I think I know enough about the outskirts around it too to help me in my endeavors. Here so interesting dialing back on the bed situation, like what if it's in season, you find a bed, think it's a buck? Are you like some guys will sit in it and think through where am I to hang a stand right here? I think I've heard you say that on one of the old videos out there, like what are the things you're breaking down at that point? Is it? Okay? So at that time of year, I'm not really um looking for a bed per se that there's not a deer in it. I'll be going and if I bump a deer out of that bed, I'm looking for the spot. I don't know what bucks, and at that it might be a pound white till um. So I'm not like a lot of these guys I guess looking for uh if if you're asking me for guys coming up in the state that they're in, I'm getting to give a bunch of different answers of what they should be doing versus somebody who's onto where the deer's already betted or onto this buck. Um um. I'm not out looking for new you know new new buck. There's a new spots already know where the bucks better than I'm I'm going after him, you know. So I'm kind of curious about both. Yeah, so both as far as on. So if you want to if you were going to find uh a buck's bed, then you think you just bumped them out of there, or you just think you're wander around and you came upon one. You know, you know where one's at. Yeah, I'm wondering. Yeah, you know, most guys have the tools. I would think to see where that beds that look at the lay of the land and check out the wind and then figure out a spot to set a stand for when he's coming back. Correct. Okay, So so's what you might do is you might spend all the time and effort and do that, and you might end up with a buck that you don't want. Same with scrapes. You know, I could sit there's so many scrapes on. I can sit scrapes all day long. But what if the beard that you're after is not working at scrape? You want to go waste the day sitting on a scrape that's got maybe four one towards coming through that are working at that you know your bucks not even he's on that. So um, I guess I'm in a different state than we're where. I gotta know, like I said, I gotta have all the piece of information. I don't like to douche it wind um. And even these stands we've got, we've got phenomenal stands that are just they're in right spots and they'll light up for short and time or they'll be great. I cannot stand just going and jumping in one of those without looking at the sign there first. I'll be up in that tree and I'll be just like thinking to myself, is it not even hot here yet? Or it's you know, I mean it just it just drives me a while. I gotta go there and literally physically check the trails again and almost like checking traps um. And there's spots too that I have. I'm like that too. I'll go and I'll they get I'll check a primary scrape and I'll watch you. I'll get nicked up a little bit. They're gonna be some branches tooot up a little bit, and then I'll check it like four days later, and then the little knick ups a little more addressed of and then all of a sudden, I'll check it, you know, a couple of days later, and some branches are broken off, and I'll come here one day in the sun of a bitch is just demolished. And then I learned on that spot because I was I would hunt that that area and I would not see ship until that tree got demolished. Then I learn it over the years, right, I dive in there and then big that big sun a bit should be up running, you know, daylight hours, just aggressive as hell, and it was the timing was right time to do it, you know. Uh. Over the years, I got a little more advanced. For now I could go sneak up to where he was held up. I call it a staging area um where that deer will hang out. He might get up before dark, but that was just they'll just hang out there and no spots you can find um us in grassy marshal areas. There'll be some worn out dead grass there. You can almost see like where two bucks might be sparring there, and they'll get up out of your beds and they'll stay there untill pitch dark and then move out. You know, if there's too much pressure, if you're on public or whatever. So, like I said, over time and over the years, as you you absorb all that stuff, you can. Um, it's just reads like it's almost written written on a sign there to me and and and some guys will just not not see it. I got some pretty advanced on her stood that I try and teach win the thermal stool, and they just just don't freaking get it, and they probably never will. I'm just for your say. So, UM, I know that back in the day, when it came to using trail cameras, you would just focused on using them for inventory during the summer. But I think you're using them more now recently, is that right? Like, how are you using cameras in season to help you fine tune this scouting portion to dial in? So you know that that scrape isn't just a couple and forties, it's it's the buck, right, It's I gotta say, I got I got a trail camera, soulf Um. It kind of is a really unfair advantage, Okay. So I explained the guys that years ago, everybody be in church, I'd be freaking in a swamp before the season up to my chest literally glassing huge Marsha's for a week before the season. Man, nobody, you know, nobody did that. Nobody had to wear it all or the gump to do it. Now, a guy could go slap a camera and do all what I did all weeks of work and have it in in two minutes. Okay, so again it's a two I use it. It's it's it's it's a value boot tool. Um. But I got so frustrated with him that I just got piste off that us, Like why am I going through all this work and you know, half these cameras are scared and dear, I can't see what the hell is in the picture, And I'm like freaking, I wouldn't spend a lot of money to do a camera because I got I got sick of wasted my time with him. Um, there was a deer on this property had the biggest white til track I've privacy seen and never got a glimpse of them, and and it was in the snow. It was a scrape, and I had set a camera. I've seen that track going through there, and I finally I went up and I've seen the track with through and I got I got this, I'm gonna see what the friakest thing has got in his head? Finally, you know, I think I got from the neck down. I got so freaking hot. I took that camera and just ripe pull it at the freaking blew in a million pieces, and I'm like, I'm done with this ship. I don't know if the stick behind it sag or whatever the hell it was that I thought, I can't take it anymore. You know, this is painful. So um, if I'm going to use a piece of equipment, I wanted to work right, so um. But yeah, so it's a it's a great tool, but uh, you gotta be careful because um, you know, especially with a lot of cells and all that, you can get too much in there, too much human intervention, especially during the season. A deer and velvet as a different animal than a deer and hard horn. Um. A deer on a on a on a mineral or a bait site is a different animal than one that's kind of back in a wild and back in the game. Sol Um, you don't want to Oh, the one kid was set in his camera and and I think another guy was an interest that came and hunt your property more because this kid's up and down, checking his camera every freaking day up and now on the whole I mean, you're just you're leaving your scent in, You're you're you know the deer pattern. You know, you gotta be smart about it, and I'll put it on maybe, uh, plot watcher, get way back and watch the whole thing and stay away from that intimate spot that you need to do your ambush and know also, um, but I think it's a valuable tool. It really is. And it's like I said, it's it's it's as uh, it's as valuable as as their standing beans late season. I mean they're both you know, criminally freaking great to use, and um, they give you an advantage. Not that the daring got the big advantage over here to start with, right, Yes, they have got the thing that the leg up on us in most cases. But with these cameras, do you kind of sent them in some low impact places and let them just be there all year, or do you move them throughout the season and get zeroed in closer and closer to where you think a buck is and kind of close in on a buck in a way. So we said them on a lot of scrapes now during during the season. And then areas where the scrapes have from a distance kind of away where deerill funnel through. Um, so if something comes through there, even you get anything that hits the scrape and you get a whole area of deer moving through that area. I used them all last year. It did not have any problems. You can watch my show. It just aired the other day, and I think they'll show you some video of whitetail on these scrapes during the season that are phenomenal. Cody literally he used cameras to chase the big buck down last year and he didn't. He didn't get the deer, but dude, he got onto it or close to it like seven different times, which I don't even know if I'm good enough to get onto a big deer that many times. Normally I'm like, if I'm pushing up, I got an opportunity or or close the third time to figure something out and beat there. I'm I'm lucky as hell. So um And he even actually said the deer that I shot he had on camera said before I saw said that I think that damn deer left the side of the the road. Now he's on he's on the other side in that morning, I see I think you're right. I think he went on my side road and he came through the drawers and he's done. So look, but we got some things we did do that these who walks, you're gonna see world class deer looking into that camera and not even you know they know something's there. I mean I kind of hide. Um, but it's it's not bothering them. Um, and it's it's a pretty pretty good deal to be able to have that where a lot of the other ones I had to look at that thing and run people on video mode. You can watch them with their asses in the air, in their tails is freaking hidden to the to the hill. So um, you just gotta be careful. You know what it is? Common sense? You know, a guy start using a little more. Um. My teacher told me you're not the brightest stuff, Bulgary says. But I think someone puts you in line ten different times for common sense. You've got more common sense in this whole class combined. So um. And I don't know if that's again just the way my mind works in that area. Um, but get me to spell something or a dual arithmetic. I'm I'm just kind of lost brother. We've all got our things. Um, so here's what I'm still one of the things I keep on wondering about. You've got You've got these cameras on scrapes. You are out there poking around, scouting sometimes daily. It sounds like going out there looking, searching, moving in. How do you do that in not push that deer to be more nocturnal, or how do you not push that deer to be doing a different thing tomorrow because you walk through today at that time of that year. I'm gonna tell you right now, they don't give a ship if you're a human. What's going on that deer? Um a lot of times does not give a ship. But you're doing what your he's concentrated on dolls, going on the heat and following them. And when you when you read that sign that that happens when um, when all of a sudden, uh, you'll have a trail coming up across the ridge or something and it's got huge, polished, freaking red, hot, freaking rubs. That's a dog going on the heat and she's got four days before she'll be bread. When you see that sign, you get on that and you get on it right away and that dear don't give a ship even if you're there, he's gonna still go up that dropt all that does no matter what, Like I told you, if I could have, if I could have ranged or knew the range that was at our had ability to shoot that deer. I think that there was a forty five yards that deer was standing in open fields staring at me, and I was watching that doll right on the edge of the woods standing there. He wasn't leaving that doll side. He didn't give a shift. I was standing there staring at him. If I could have took a pulp and hit that there, I could killed him off the ground probably, But um, that's the killable deer. That deer earlier in the year. Man, you got a tip toe around or you know, make sure you don't get too aggressive in this spot and that stuff that he's playing the game. He knows gen areas doesn't run circles around this though. Yeah, it was a winning rome. You know, take that season. You know you kinda don't bust in like a freaking bull or trying to cabin start what you can stay for distance field edge hunt. Look, you know then as it gets an October, it gets tougher. The only time. And I've had a whole season where I talked to guys that were did other shows. All their guys were not seeing ship. It went dead in October big time that year. And I was seeing freaking nice, mature deer every freaking day. The difference was I was shrick and crawling right up their asses and right in the beds with them, and they weren't going out of the bedding areas. They would get up mid twenty yards around a little bit, eat a little bit, PLoP back down. They were stand put there And if you weren't there, you could be forty fifty yards away and you were out of the game. Man. And those guys are all hunting, you know, probably there are normal spots or funnels or whatever, and they didn't miss the whole boat, you know. So so you're you're taking a little bit easier in the early season. But once you're getting some point oc told where you start pushing in those betting areas. I think I saw somewhere that well, isn't it kind of like when you can get aggressive is when that gets towards that that's a little pre rug when them, those are, you know, getting close to coming in and then there's competition. Um man, I had deer that would get done one of me and smell me and just beat the frick out of a tree that knew it was me after them, and just send them a sign like you know, you're in my house now, you know. And and I guess maybe a lot of guys aren't experienced that because you're not hunting. Maybe that caliber or that dominant deer in here, I don't, I don't know. You know, you're um if you're just sitting in the woods hoping at a bucket come by, I mean I would think they'd be pretty easy to capitalize on that, you know. Yeah, So so what about like you're doing this, you're aggressively pushing in there finding him. Do you ever is there ever situation where you say, oh, you know what, I gotta back out of here and give it time, or no, it's time to give up on this deer or do you just search and search, pushing, push and push. I never give up on the deer. Um. And again, you know, with my mentality, I don't I'll bump a deer. I don't mind bumping a deer. I think I learned that too from a property I had that was so overrun with deer you could not get to your stand or walk anywhere without jumping deer. Um, go to your scouting spot, don't worry about everything else around you, concentrate on you know, the job at hand. Go after that deer and be concerned about that and not like everything else. Um. Now, obviously you don't want to be running through your entire property with a bike and blowing everything out everywhere and just getting um um everything chaotic. Then you know, then you got a bunch of eyes and ears. Uh so on the ambush, you know, the weigh in the way out. Once you pick your spot, get in there, hunted, and get out and you'll define. Just think about how many I said done another I think a little podcast about guys. Think of how many trees that dead deer goes by and on a daily basis that you could have a tree standing and and and I think to myself, you can't pick one of them. That all those woods out there, there's something freaking wrong. Um, you might be on the right tree, but the deer might be coming an hour after dark. About going by that one or um, you know what I mean, it's or maybe you fiddling around your stand freaking you know, texting or whatever the hell you're doing a deer spot, you know, glare your noise or um. I did do a check up on a buddy ones, but I put him in on a spot that was stole red hot. He just wanted to fill a dough teg and he he wasn't seeing a dear I should there's absolutely a layer. I said, There's no way you cannot see a deer in here. There's thunders of them. You're sitting on a freaking bait. Um. So I went and glass this guy from from a distance away. I'm like, get the standing up, turn around, looking around. I mean, look a freak are you? And then so I'm watching him. I'm doing that right then I'm watching way out in the march, a whole group of goose all standing there like me, watching him doing the same ship. And I'm like, son, I'm a bit this is this is a comical. Somebody should have this on video. You know, it's funny though, but I mean it's sad, but it's funny. So is that what's going on in the in the guy's woods. I don't know, but look at some of these other guys. Look at the talent that's out there now that I've learned, um, and I've seen these guys grow and man, they're killing freaking machines. Now they've they've all of a sudden that I don't know what it is. What is that you asked me about? That aha moment when that lightbulb comes off that and I can't put my finger on it, but it's uh, um, Apparently the light bulb goes off for a lot of guys. And once they figure it out there, you know they're getting it done. And and here's another thing. So we got this new page two, and I'm really worried about what's great as all of these guys are opening up, the new guys coming up, and the last thing I want. I mean, it is intimidating to be around the guy shooting the calibrator. They're killing consistently. None of them guys started off killing Big Garrett. They were all freaking right where everybody is starting out today. And I would think that somebody and I know what I was talking that and shows and my generations, who I don't think we're that smart of a generation to tell your truth. And I always like gave a little stab at the next generation. They're kind of post season there, you know, but they're pretty educated, smart freaking kids, and that when I when I talked to that shows a lot of these guys had come and sense and they got it. And years ago I talked to guys the same way and they just wouldn't get it. So I think there's they got what it takes. Maybe they learned a little bit of tip pure and there, and then they perfect that, uh their style to their own. And they're saying, man, if somebody's you know, somebody's slaying big so um. You know, it's it's funny you you mentioned that, and and I was kind of thinking about this myself, trying to think about, you know, what I've seen and heard about you doing, and then what I've seen and heard about other guys doing that that have hunted with you or learned from you, and trying to figure out what's one of the what are the consistent things here? And one of the things I think maybe underlies everything is something you mentioned just a little while ago, which is getting rid of that feel of fear of failure. Once you get past that worry about Oh I'm unscrewed up, and you just start going for it. That seems to be something that you've got. And Justin Hollinsworth God, and Adam Hayes has got and whoever um that can more a more Mason cold type of hunter. He's a strategic, sit back and watch tool. He'll he'll do a little more observing. He's a he's a different type of guy. But don't don't get me wrong. When he sees he sees the opportunity, he gets right in there and gets it done. But um, so that's a different style. And Justin again, he's he's kind of been like right right to me. He's he he's as aggressive as he get now too. Um But yeah, everybody gets in that little um minds are a little niche and takes that. I'm gonna tell you that. The big thing though, what all of these guys got in in common. There's nobody anymore parks their ass in a stand for the entire season and just worries about over hunting it and not hunting it. These guys get their equipment and they go after it. And like I said, if if you've seen what I've seen, where you couldn't burn a white tail out of his habitat That's all you're doing is messing that thing up for day. And now you messed that spot up in that area. So back up a little bit. Um. You'll see a video that I had one one May that I I shot and actually hit a deer. Um. And because of the time of the year was I know he'd be coming through working in scrapes. Again, I changed my stand up literally not more than twenty five yards. That's some of us. Came through again, looked up in that stand nobody's there, came through again, and I just killed a bastard. Um, he does you know what I mean, He's gonna do what he's doing. I know what he's doing. Um, I'm not going away. Um. So yeah, I think uh the aggression. Like I said, I think my son's got that tim fold, he's he's got even a little more so. And some of these other guys that you said justin and through the just watch all these addiction shows watching some of these guys, do look at heath talk about a stealthy, freaking move, slipping in the back door man checking it out and setting up just that is what I call is surgically removed the white tail from the face of the earth man. It was all nothing left about it. Everything skill a hunter going with his tools and equipment and and and taking down a pretty impressive, pretty smart animals too. I would think, you know, yeah, yeah, that was a slick move when he put when I think you're talking about when he went in times when he thought that buck was going to leave his bed in the afternoon and then snuck in there behind him. That was that was impressive. Um. If we're talking about this aggressive stuff, though, we have to get into the details of what a lot of people think of as the most aggressive tactic, which you've I think popular eyes and people kind of look to you as the one who kind of first started doing this thing, which of course is the bumping dump. Um, you've talked about bumping a buck. We've talked about a couple different things that you're thinking about when you bump a buck. But tell me about the situation where you bump him and then you're saying, all right, now I'm gonna set up to to hunt him. How do you pull off the dump part after the bumping? Okay, So I don't think it sounds like an aggressive move, But to scout out an area and jump with your out his bed, I don't think that's a real really aggressive on that on that on anyhow, So I'll just put that out there. So, Um, that deer got bumped out of there. I almost think that I mentioned this before that it almost shows up that that deer got bumped, he got out of there without getting um, you know, hurt or taken, and he's it shows up that that that piece that he has figured out her bed works for him. So the deer feels better about that bed now because it just proved to him that the dude, the reason those deer are where they are is because you cannot get the one up them. And I'm not talking to you as a person. I'm talking about um. Perfect example. There's you can watch the firebuck should where dogs literally farm dogs all running deer all over there all the time. Ran that buck out of that bed and that's not a bit. Came right back to that same bed the next day to bed nett Okay, Um, if that was a person to be the same ship, you bumped me out of my bed, I got away, I'm coming back. This is a perfect spot for me. Who knows. Maybe those those dogs are chasing that deer for three days in a row, and he's and he's he sees them coming before they see where he's at. They dumped down a little bit low out of his sight. He bugs out of there, and then they chase the round some more. But it's a um. It's a great spot. It works for a deer, and I think that's why those big deer are there. Now Here's where it comes h There are beds that are good on knobs for all different wind directions where a deer can enter um and set up, and there are other spots that are only good for certain win directions. So if you're gonna do a bump and do the dump the next morning, I like to pay attention if it's gonna be the same wind for that. So if I'm scouting around, I jump a deer, I make a note that, Okay, it's the southwest wind today. If it's gonna be north west tomorrow or an east, I'm thinking maybe that there might not be on that spot. He might be on Spot B or something. You know. So UM, you can take an account that that deer preferred to UM bed certain areas in certain certain wind conditions and then you get in there, you've done your damage, right, get screwed up all you're here where it gets aggressive. Okay, the tuneing for a buck, I literally was in there. You talked about sent in an area, cut down, trimmed down trees for two hours to freaking set up this. You know, uh honey, locust blood from my freaking hands all over the tree and everything. UM. I don't know if I would have waited two days. If that they would have came in the next day and maybe you know, after getting up out of his bed then poking a little bit more would have sense some major ship going on and not coming back to that or um. But I was there the next morning from to grow right back in his bed and got it done, so I would like, I like to do that, get out of quick. And then once I learned that spot, dude, I got that stand already pre set, so you know, after a good rain or it's the wind directions right, oh man. It's it's so nice to be able to have a phenomenal spot for the morning to slide into and hunt instead of you know, a questionable um spot that you're heading in the morning. You know, because you know, I don't know if it's for you. But aren't morning spots the toughest ones for most hunters to find? For sure? A good morning spot definitely seems like it, and I would agree it's easy to get on the field. You can watch stuff coming out or when things get up and go to you know, through feeding, But um, the time of deer coming back or to get into that. A lot of times they'll be in there before you get in there, or you'll miss that boat. So how often is the bumping dump for you something you actually proactively go in there to do that. I know there's some one situation where you're scouting scouting scouting and you accidentally bump him and then you say, okay, I'm gonna make the best of the situation set up. But then the other is when you are thinking to yourself, all right, today I'm finding the dam buck. I'm gonna scout until I bump him, Like, is that a thing you do or is it usually the ladder? I'll do both of them. I'll do if if I don't know where that buck, is that better? Or if I'm scouting a new a lot of these deer that um, I didn't particularly going for that buck to bed that to bump the actual twenty for a buck. I was doing scouting to go hunt Frohm and jump him out of his bed to learn where he was actually at that. I think I don't know. For me, probably the most important piece of information of bulk hunter could have is um, knowing where dear beds, and then uh take into account. I don't know. People talked about the spokes on a wheel, Um, how close you can get to that to see if you've heard about the three days cycle, there on a three day cycle that you know, every third day, maybe I'll see that buck come through. I've heard some things like that. Is that something you've seen to be true? Well that was big years ago. Yeah, there there is. There's a three day cycle off the hubble that wheel, but there's a one day cycle if you're freaking in close enough and tight enough where he's betted, you're gonna see that dear just about every freaking day coming out of there, if you're off on that tangent. And today he decides to go run this side of the farm to look for some goals, and then tomorrow he runs off the total opposite side of the farm. Uh. Yeah, and it's three days before he gets back to that same one. You're sitting there, sitting there, sitting there, and all of a sudden, third day there he was again. There's a spot in there that's an everyday cycle. Um. That's where I'm kind of honing in on and trying to get closest to um. Dude, there's nothing more empowering about sitting in a tree stand and watching a slob just get right up out of his bed and uh and not even have a clue you're freaking there. It's it's uh, um, it's pretty phenomenal. And there's it's fun to watch them crawl back into their beds and see what they do it too. Um and a lot of guys doing that too. But all these bucks that crawl back into their beds and dead up in initially in the morning, they seem to be always you want to stick around a little longer because they always seem to get up and read situated or reposition a little bit um a little later too. So uh. And that's what I count out in that October is they're they're in there, They're in the bedding area. They're really not on a move. But they are up and doing a little bit of movement. You know, something could get them um clost enough. I don't know how many times I've climbed out of trees a huge buck better within fifty yards of me, and they even have a freaking clue. I was even there and just got the hell out, you know. So, so we gotta break down how you actually choose them the spot to set up, so you bump the buck out of there. You saw him run off, and let me take one step back. I'm assuming when you go into purposefully bump a deer that you're doing this with the wind in your face. So the wind's got tell me if I'm wrong? Is that true or not? So I really don't have because the train you can't keep I'm saying what you know, people talking about the way, dear move. You can't keep the women your face the whole time and get to it. You go through methodically. You gotta pay attention to most of us when we go scout, our eyes are pin to the ground looking for tracks, and you gotta get accustomed to being able to do a little of that. But you gotta you've gotta be looking up and getting a glimpse of that the worst thing in the world. I I hate it when I jump a deer and I don't get a glimpse of is rack. I mean, I hear big cage smashing through and I don't I don't know which one it was or if you know, I didn't get a good enough look at it. Um So you gotta custom yourself to it a little bit. But you're never gonna be able to just constantly do the old wind in the face and uh, just cover a lot of ground where you think that deer might be better. You're you're scouting, You're poking around. Now all of a sudden you bump them off a flat, right, Okay, it's a big flat there. He is better on that flat. Now, you just you got that bed. If he comes back to that bed, you gotta be able to shoot. I like to some of the people picked up the spot that they scout a little bit coming into that, like Cody. I want to be able to pick that spot, but still want to be able to hit that. The same with scrapes. You know, people set up down wint the scrapes. When I used to do that. I read the articles years ago or heard it, we're talking about it. I would sit down with the scrapes and I watched a buck coming from the totopos the way I worked with scrape and leave without me able to get in their own it. So I want to be able to shoot the scrape and I want to be able to shoot the bed. So, uh when direction you know, you know what it's gonna be. Next day, you're in there. Now he's out of there, you can set up your stand and you can slide in. Um, you can get in there the next morning and be and be set and be in for a good good night. So you're down wind of the bed there within shooting range of the bed. Well, no, not not not down when you want to be where that deer wherever he's coming in, can't smug. And now remember that deer is gonna most of the time you're gonna do like a jay hook into that bed. They're gonna look down around and then get that wind coming into your face. And if you're on the wrong side of that bed, even though you're down wind, um, he's gonna get you and he's gonna bug out. So you know you're taking the educated guests or you're gonna look at the sign and read it where you think he's gonna enter, and then you just strategically make sure that you just can't get your win. And the thing I love about mornings too. I know guys hate mornings, they hate getting them up with, and you're you got thermals all coming up. I just think it's such you've got worn out deer from running around all night, you know, Jason or whatever, I don't know. I think it's some of the best time to kill, killing really big deers on morning post, you know, getting back into their innet. October. So you talked about those thermals um and then also trying to get down wind of where a buck's gonna jay hook in there, and that all leads me to just trying to better understand your thoughts around setting up with wind. I know that you talk about trying to find these bulletproof sets. You you're not big man any direction anyway, that's it's uh. And I know the bulletproof because I'll have adult coyotes get down winto me and not even have a clue that I'm there. So you know something's going on with the draft of the wind, the way it's being taken out of there. Um, And they'll come from experience, and a lot of times the experience is what sucks is that first time in you're taking a gamble that you got this all figured out right, and you may sit that stand and the winds and the thermals might do some some goofy stuff that that you didn't anticipate, and then you all that time you took the stuff that stand all real nice, and it's in a wrong spot and now you gotta readjust it so and ain't like I did get this ship. You m right every time. But by doing that and learning that, I think I got a pretty good idea of I always think of it this way, if you want to think of where you'd want your scent to go more or less than um, where you'd love to be sitting and have that sent to goal and kind of think of it almost like you're banking, you know, pool game or something. Um, you're thinking a little deeper into them, Um, what could happen? Um? Because dude, you can be you can have to win right for you. And I've had deer in the big woods and big pines and all that literally win me from direction. You'd say there's absolutely no way in hell that deer got my sense and bugged out of there, and then all of a sudden, I always tell that story. One day I started snowing, and I watched the snow coming by me where I'm at the right way. Then I watched it hit the opening in the pines and go the other way, and all snows going up, you know, down that draw, and then another opening took the snow and went it did a big j hook right to where I did. With standing. I said, no, now, I now I figured out why that's done, But he did. He did send me. There's no way I could have known that or um back then. Anyhow, That's how I learned it. You know, I think about that stuff now, um, chryst, I think about my scent, the one thing off the tree I'm in getting on the right position that I would hit the tree and wrap around it to the left more than the right, just to throw that sent you know, a little different directions. So can you can you think of any example of some sets like this where you have you know, created or found a bulletproof set. Can you describe something that because I feel like this is one of those things that people hear about, but it's hard to country right. Uh. So you got some hill countries where you got uh, maybe you're on the top of knob. So I've had a lot of elk two in my past, so I've kind of learned um a lot of that from from hunting out. But so you got a wind direction coming that you're set up from a knob. Then you got a hill behind you that has thermals coming up. And as those thermals come up the hill, they're running into the wind direction coming across the top, and they create a chimney effect. And you have another hill to your left at the thermals are coming up, and you've got another one thing right, And all of a sudden, you got all this soft traft coming up, and you got one set blowing off and I can get deered down into me, the right of me, the left of me, and they just don't have a freaking clol. And here's the thing that's that's all the ship with sun control and all that is great to be good hygiene and all that, but there's nothing you can do to beat a white tails knows if he starts sniffing for you, he's gonna find you. So the only way to beat a big white tail's nose is that absolutely no sense coming off your body is getting to where he's at. And that's all got to do with the win direction of the terminal, doesn't have to do with your your suits and what you're washing with. Um. Yeah, you can get away with maybe a little bit more and a deer that's not as alarmed, there's accustomed to people or whatever. But if a deer is looking for you and wants to find you, if there's any amountitor that's got from you to that animal, he's gonna set smell you. But if there's no air or vapor from your body getting to him, there is no way in hell he's gonna bust you. Now, the only way is gonna bust you is if you're sitting there pissing your pants and the electricity is pouring off your body and you're so nervous. He's got that sixth sense. He actually senses you in that tree. Um, you know, nervousness or whatever it is, or you you know, you got your your eyes or your moving or whatever. So it's a it's a it's a it's a big game. I used to tell Cody learned learned to disappear, and it was and then he finally for that one vannage. So now I know what you mean about just disappearing. Just go away, man, Just there's nobody here, there's nothing happening. You find those spots, go they are They're very enjoyable to hunt, very empowering. Man. You you mentioned disappearing in the woods. I gotta ask about the eye thing I heard you have talked about. You think that deer can can see the white cere eyes are since you looking at them? Dude, I don't think anything. I know. A deer will look right down into your soul for your eyeballs, just like anybody else would. Um, you could look at me the wrong way across the bar boy, and you can say a lot of shifts to me through through a look. And so where I've learned um a lot on that is with filming with with binoculars, anything with a lens or. And I was I had coke bottles glasses when I started out, honey, and I would have to say that up for hunters is the biggest, um hindrance to the guys. If you wear glasses and you don't cover them up, So I took it a step further. Now I got rid of glasses. I had lastic surgery, but I still see them. Deer will look right and you can tell you And here here's how you can tell that they're looking at your eyes. That's all you gotta do. You get a doll that looks right in your eyes, you just splint them eyes, close them and we can just barely see her and just watch her flicker Carroll and go about her freaking business. Danger gone, and saying, with your binoculars, do you see what I'm staring at? You just take them binoculars and slowly tilt them down like a forty five degree angle. As soon as them binoculars go away from that deer seeing them, they just flicked her channel and go about their business. Danger gone. Um. So it's the same with eyes, it's the same with camera lenses. It's the same with binoculars, um and dude. When I get my head net down and my eyes covered, I get some big ship coming in that just looks right on through me and they don't even know what the frick is going on up there. So that's something a lot of guys don't do that. I don't know anybody who puts a set over where the head net you know what, Leave the head and net off and get two little rings that will go around your freaking eyes to cover your boot. It ain't your head you need to cover, it's your eyeballs. Yeah, I definitely. Oh, by the way, we got a head net coming out. Well, I've been always wanting to have one, but I don't know if. But uh, there's enough out there you can customize to make. I take the reader one so that you can see through and cut cut some on there. You'll try it sometimes. If you got deer that around you don't want to shoot, and you're waiting for a certain buck kick, just put the head net down and you can have it so you can simply and I can shoot through a head net. Um, if you're not comfortable for shooting one, just let everything go about. His business was near you, and then you can put the thing back up. If you're filming and glass and you're wanting to watch. But if you want something that's coming through that's not to get you, um, throw that thing down. I'll tell you man, you you will not get busted. And that you can wear a three piece suit up there on Okaming. As long as those eyes are covered, you'll be good. You'll be good to go. I'm gonna test that one this year. I like that. UM. Back to the wind thing. So something that I know a lot of people struggle with and I do too, is trying to figure out how to balance playing the wind so that you don't get winded, but then also trying to be in the spot where a buck thinks he's got the wind in his favor. And you always hear about hunting these like the wind, just cutting corners, trying to be just off the edge and stuff like that. And can you describe exactly how you think through that? You just you just gave me a scenario that in a situation that a buck is coming, he'll be concerned about how that's good for him. Like I said, a deer does not. UM. There's ways that they travel through there was there's way that they prefer to come into a bad leave a bed where they get spooked or alarmed. They want to bust out and run into the wind for a little bit and then look back around. Um. A deer cannot move through its entire life and day with the wind perfect room. It's impossible to do. So what you do is you pick your spot, pick your ambush spot, and that ambush spot is the spot you got I'm gonna manipulate. So when that deer comes through there, you want to make sure that that I don't know, it might not even be good for that animal right there, but it's gonna it's gonna be. Um, it's gonna be good for you because you're gonna be in the right you know, the right spot off it that he's not going to get your wind. And the other big thing is um, um, what was this thing about that the other day years ago? But deer would only trust this nose. It wouldn't even believe what I has seen unless it smells it along with it. I remember when that changed, when the volume of hunters and things. And I don't tell I don't. I don't know how a year and a half old buck that young. It's almost like it gets ingrained into genetics if those teach um teach her off spring from year to year what it is. But deer don't need the sent check anymore. They don't need to verify danger with their freaking os anymore. They've spotted your assid and they'll they'll be out of there or bug out. So you really got to be conscience on your setups with the vision and sent, but more importantly obviously sent because you can have the one up on the more they don't see you, and you're gonna see you what they're no. So um, same about a trail, you know, don't don't set up on the inside of a trail with the deer looking across the right the way you're going. You don't want to deer looking through your buddy, Believe me, I just want to You want him looking off somewhere and you've being off the side and not having it, you know, you even in his cone of vision. So throw that in along with your scent the right wind and you've you've been in an affordable tree stand. You set up and you manipulated that spot. That deer comes true, you're gonna get you know, you get your crack on them and maybe yeah, I hope. So you're you're not an advocate for any kind of scent control other than just play the wind right and I is that still true? No? So here's the thing. There's there's always room for sun control or sun control is gonna come in is maybe not a molested deer. Maybe it's a borderline. They're just getting a little hint of um. And if you know do it, there's always a good argument for I'm only need freakxt that takes a shower too three times a day. So but what's funny? You know what I you know my scent control. I use a dial stope, which they say if you want to keep deer out of your garden, to put shavings of that ship out there. I use all kinds of stuff in my clothing that they say, you know, is the worst thing you can use on it um. But I think what you want is antibacterial. You know, sweat don't smell until it hits bacteria and then heats created. Keeping you're sent control to a minimum is always going to be good. But what I'm saying is there's no freaking way if you think that you can be completely sent free where a food take showers in this and you think you're gonna be the deer's nose and you don't have guys at all. This deer came in down good, So what so deer came in down with you? I'm looking for the sun of a bitch. I watched you know, wind you from freaking treating ours way and never even get to where you even seen it. And there's dozens of deer that do that. Um, And if you pay attention, you'll you'll see that. So you still want good, good thing. But like I said, the only way to make sure deer has not sent you is that any vapor coming off your body cannot reach the area is at And there's only one way to do that is what some thermals, some vacuums, some wind direction because you know senil literally to drop the bottom of your tree and literally spill out against the wind somewhat. Um. So I've seen that too on my older winds. But start thinking about that. UM. I could tell you a little story out of Hunter too that I taught that lesson to and started coming big deer every year. Um, you're still there because I got something ringing on my phone here. Okay, that's just somebody uh coming so UM A friend of mine years ago, Todd fritzink Uh. You probably know him in the industry. He ended up becoming a very good season hunter uh and ended up with a tragedy. But when he was just green behind the ears and came to the Illinois was a big fan alone wolf. Um, he had it. I'm not gonna mention the suit. Everybody's gonna know what the suit is. And I'm not saying the suits uh don't work. But he had it in his head that he could put a magic suit on and be completely sent free. And even though he thought he was trying to play the wind um subconsciously. You think you got the shield of armor and you don't have a shield of armor. And I told him, how you got to start thinking about this whole deal. Uh, Now you've gotta suit you never washed before, that's probably contaminated. Uh you're thinking you can get away with this and get away with that. Why don't you just go in through the season thinking you can't get away with nothing, and go at it with such a fricking animal vengeance of wind direction, thermals and just you know where you step before you set your stand. Uh. That season he killed his first buck there on one of our releases, and uh because it was nothing but net. Ever since after that, he finally just got that part of it um and then you know, honed his skills as and and whatever style he ended up working for him when we'll started working for him. So, and it's like anybody you know so, And I'm not gonna go and say a guy that if you need that badge or that shield, and that's what gives you the confidence, and then you play the wind to a t, go for it. I'll give you a here here. It's a real good story for yourself. When I first started out years ago, sunk was the cover sense of the time. And then it turned into every thought, well, we were smart, and you don't use sunk because stunk sprays. It's alarms, and alarms are deer or whatever. So then it got to be um uh con piss, and it was it was ars arse. That was my badge. Man, I get that shift on and I'd be freaking invincible. One year, Um the industry went short. Nobody had it anywhere. I couldn't find shut kills what I used to use. I ran over at every store, ran across Tom and I was in. I was in a panic, Dude, the season's coming and I got no earth sent right, So I went that season with no cover scent. I've seen more and bigger deer than I ever seen in my entire freaking life. And I've never used the cover sent since and it's been nothing but um good time. So take that into an account that um, you know what I mean, you can get a false sense of security. That's so it might be hurting me man. Um, yeah, it seems to be like as as long as you don't use those things as a crutch, right, don't get don't get false confidence that uses a crutch. Always always play it and then all those little things might be a little bit bonus on top, but never short change the original. Yeah, and I still don't think you know, your average guy is gonna get. Um, do not realize how good at that the animal senses. When I watched the black bear getting run by some dogs in a hurricane, when I was in a tree stand and that thing must have been thirty and my wind was blowing right down the log and road, uh at probably twenty miles that bear hit that freaking logging road and a set of guy look like it hit a brick wall and turned on a dime, caught my scent like like that, not even a question that it was you know, a hint or whatever it is. It was that scent blowing there constantly hard. Uh. I think that the animals to see and that's gonna be hard to beat anything that can smell like that unless he just does not get us a whiffery at all. So if you can, if you can think that or picture that in your mind, even be able to um um picture that. I think you know, you might come in a little bit different way and then you don't want to get to it the other Here's another story I can say that was funny as hell. A guy that I was in Camp liss Um, I was hunting Wisconsin and he got up on a hunt two hours before anybody had to get out of bed to go hunt. And the son of a bitch had compulsion and was taking a shower and ship in bags and I'm like, I could use the street and I'm like, what the hell are you doing? You know, as the man, it's like this. When I got up, was time to get ready, and that I says, you must that ship must really really work for you if you're so you know, you're so animate about it um, And he told me, I, yeah, I used it all the time and I haven't seen it here yet. And he was hunting the whole season in Wisconsin. I said that's a possible. It is literally impossible to have not seen a freaking deer hunting in the woods an amount of times he was out there, and I'm like, and I just gave him a little bit of advice, So maybe you should uh forget about all that, get yourself a couple of extra you know, season gead out and start playing that wind a little bit more instead of that crutch. So um, and I've seen that time and time again, and it's just, um, it just stays so. And here's here's the thing that's I don't want to sound eric or anything when you ask me to about you think that they're seeing your eyes. Dude, I don't think nothing. Everything I tell you. I freaking know for a fact, I don't give a ship when any engineers say or what books there or whatever the hell that sho it is. If I'm telling you man, it's it's it's freaking golden because I've I've experienced it numerous numerous times. And um, and not to say that there's some weird ship that can happen. I've had deer come down one to me that I know becau's an away two and and it just it was a time of year that the deer just didn't give a ship. And I have other times you couldn't get anywhere near that damn deer. You you just bug out. So winning rome. You know the time of year, change up your your tactics, get more aggressive as it gets closer rut and enduring the ruck do you can get you want to do a bumping dump if you ain't seeing deer. You know the lockdown period. When there's a four day period you don't see a freaking deer, you wonder where all your bucks went. Get your ass down and go walk every ounce of that freaking property until you run into a bunch of bucks looking at you and a bunch of deer that ain't even running off, and just set of stand up and hang onto your freaking half brother, because you are in the game. There's a done heating there. It's got every buck on it right then and there. And if you're in the same little draw or the same one lot, you're gonna have the time of your life. And if your two draws over, you're gonna have three days before you see any bucks at all moving around again, because they're on one spot. So I've heard you say that you hate the rut, but there are certain situations like that. I guess where you can you can enjoy that, right, Well, that's why I hate the rut. That's the kind of ship you gotta do. Is too so this year and this property here, when that rut hits, all of a sudden, on here cameras, you'll start getting pictures of all kinds of small bucks, uh, smaller class deer, and literally every freaking buck is gone for weeks, which is amazing. You think they'd stick around and and they got the ones that came into the heat here earlier, got and there, and they're literally freaking gone. And you'll be just spinning your wheel for a couple um the week's hunting here, and all of a sudden, after the rut the late season, I'll see these things just coming in from across just vast open drop realms. There he is heading back to home, done chasing ship around for you know, three miles this way, three miles that way or so. That's why if you're looking for that deer, and I don't get me wrong, there's a ship thoad other bucks that will be traveling through here, and all these smaller ones running all over hell, you could kill, but the one I'm looking for, he's he is gone. I ain't got a prayer in the world of killing him because he's you know, held up with it. Go and heat two miles on a woodlot somewhere. Um, you're not coming back home tonight. Let's put it that way, you know. So, So in that kind of situation, is is your go to you know, aggressive move literally doing what you just said, Like in that situation, you will walk him down to find a bunch and well, now here so we got again cameras. This is the property that I know. Inside now this property here, there will be a short window during the rock when other you are doing just what my dear are doing. And I don't get it to the lay of the land. Here we've got the only cover in it's all big open stuff. But there'll be a spot I have in a wood lot that every year we'll get one nonresident deer that we've never had a picture of or any experience with it. Just it just seems like one maybe two. Um, that's huge. And I remember one year, Um it was coming at that time, and I knew where I needed to be. I needed to be in that stand the at that time, and my son beat me to that stand at that time and he had a flammer come through that he uh, he kind of messed up on but there. So I was talking about kind of knowing in advance where you need to be. That was my one hope from shooting a big deer that during the next three weeks on this property and that was it. I needed to be there and I wasn't there, So now I had to wait for late season, and then a bunch of the other deer moved back in and it was you know, you can go after whatever you wanted to then the there back. So um. It could be a different scenario in areas, whether it's just you know, like Dollar in Illinois, were along the river there, they'll get bucks coming in and they're just traveling, um from miles and miles away. During the ruck. You know, I went here looking for them. Everything is bright, looking for some stragglers or um. But if you're not looking for specific deer, man, get down and go find a don't heat and get them the whole game. We had one here your two year a deer. I don't know if you know this, and that probably a lot of guys don't want her. Deer gets injured a doll she's got a bone broke or an injury, they put off a stink where they smell literally that could do and heat. So one year we had an injured doll up in a draw here and I was on it on the side of my property, and every buck on the property was following that doll in and out of that draw. Every night. There was like thirteen bucks on her and Cody was on the other side. I said, do it. You can hunt all you want over there. I said, everything on this property is over here right now. Um. And they would follow around thinking that, you know, in four days or Somethingy're gonna get lucky or whatever hell doing. And she wasn't going to heat. She was just kind of thing from being injured. But the same with the doll that's going to heat. You can have your entire group of deer all living in one little small spot for a while on your property, and you know you're sitting, you know, half a mile away in another spot where it ain't happening. If you could sit there all day long, you're not getting no action. Brother. Yeah, the rut it is the highest of high as the lowest of lows. You either got it or you're down. Yeah, but here's the deal with this ruck. Good, here's what I'm like. But you know, the spots will have been one year in Milwaukee was on Wisconsin Avenue next to the bus stop. If you would have been in a telephone bowl hunting there, you just shot of open young that year he came through freaking that. I mean, that's the kind of ship you're dealing with. The rut. So that's when if you if it's but don't get me wrong, there's run hunters, and you can be you can capitalize on some pretty huge bucks in that rut because they're coming in from my deer are running around like that on somebody else's property. So the guy that sit in the right spot on the right day is going to get that crack at that deer where a little bit later when it gets the late season, he ain't never seen it again because it's coming back here in winter. And so, um, I just don't like hunting a deer that I've never I don't have a personal deal with that. Don't get me wrong, dude. You know a hundred nine years buck comes by under stee before he's getting a freaking arrow on it to actually. Um, But when I'm hunting the specific one i'm wanting, I'm not out just for a a rut buck or something personal, kill you know whatever, Keller. But most guys don't give a shot. They want to they want to kill Jesus during the ruck. If if a deer's on your property, it's funny because we'll have cameras out in a lot of spots, and um, a buck. I was after ones. Uh, the moon face said late, so when the deer were moving later, So I thought, you know what, I'm not in all days sitter, so I can't. So I'm gonna go out a little bit later, and then I'm gonna go sit through the midday when the action was happening. The damn morning that I freaking slept in, this monster was through my yard chasing a frickin door over hell, when I'm sitting here in breakfast, I shouldn't understand. And when I went and checked cameras, I could have been in four different freaking stands. I could have picked that morning and killed that buck on anyone of them. And where the hell was I, uh, you know, like an idiot? Uh, sipping a cup of coffee waiting for I was gonna go in a little later. So I made a bad decision on that one. But that's the kind of stuff that happens, and UM, you gotta go with it, man. Yeah, you just don't know. Man. Um, I feel well, I don't feel I literally have like thirty more topics that I think we did another part. I think we need another podcast. Brother, I know if you're if you're up for it, I think we should do it because I feel like we barely scratch the surface on some of this stuff. Um, but we're coming up on too. I get. I get no more bigger thrill. Then the guy that walks up to me in a shoal that's been hunting two years listen to some stuff we said, I took it the heart, tried it and went and shot to two giant bucks that year. Um, in ways that most average guys that think you're freaking knots that can't be done. Um and seeing seeing these guys get set off on the right foot. The worst thing that aggravates me the worst is to see people getting some false information or some gimmicky stuff and they get set off. The kids just destined for failure. Uh and I think that's just criminal to see that so um and what's really rewarding to me as all these guys have become friends all these years to see what the talent go from. You know, you know you're old when you you watched the guy growing his career twenty years um go from some pretty inexperienced guys to just um, some pretty stealthy, pretty um, pretty educative guys. Man. These guys are like I said, they're they're knocking some and you know what, there's a lot of big stuff to be knocking down these days too. I think years ago there wasn't so um. You know, you've got the right tools, You've got a little bit of right information and location, location, location brothers. So I know, and I feel sorry for some of the guys that are I cut my uh um my teeth on a lot of spots where you know, they don't have spot to hunt. They're hunting these high pressured areas with a lot of hunters. I learned to be a good hunter by hunting that type of scenario with ten acres with ten guys hunting it. Um. And you know, when you can come out of there and see three or four bucks in the night, end up under like your stand stage in Spern, and everybody else comes out and hasn't seen a deer in the night. It's kind of a pretty good feeling. That's you. You know, you're kind of figuring some stuff out. And um, and I said, it's empowering mental to learn it and just keep soaking it in and can you figure it out in the test situations and then you can do it anywhere? Yeah, And like I said, it's so, if you've seen that as much as I did, you you probably learned. Unless you're you can get hit in the head a couple of times and somebody walked up your popped in ahead a few times. You want to take note, he's probably gonna do it again. So but it just don't. And again, my mind works different. I take it in and I and I think about it always. I think about christ I think about tracks that I cut forty years of believe or not. Why are they pop into my head or a scenario. It's just it's it's ugly. Um. I'd like to be able to turn it off at one point here and just take a rest, But well, I'm not on my DNA. Yeah, well, we're gonna have to keep prying into this stuff and do some more investigating to figure it out. Because I think everyone's here in this right now has been learning a lot, and uh, it's helpful stuff. I want to I was just gonna say, I want to ask a few more, just a couple more quick questions because we're gonna kind of pivot and then wrap it up. UM, since we've taken a lot of your time here today, But what were you about to say before I jumped in? I lost my train of thought. I was gonna say something about the about like I said, the caliber guys out now that the kids in the amount of knowledge that we have with you know, with more about the weather and all. I think you have a you know, there's an old school guy that's alter that you know, it's a good hunter and keep getting it done it. I think these guys can can be educated and learning. I never thought that. I thought you were either born with um you know, the talent to be a good athlete or a good hunter, and it's something that you had. But I don't believe anymore. I believe that you can you can learn, and you can UM you can apply it right. You know I never could because, like I said, I just said, I messed up the mindor way I thought, so I had to learn it all my own. No, it certainly seems to have worked for you. Um, okay, last couple of questions real quick. This one is kind of hypothetical scenario that I've been asking a lot of people about lately, and I'm curious to get your thoughts on it. Let's say that I have control of the world and I'm going to take away your ability to hunt for the next ten years. I can't hunt for the next ten years unless you kill your target buck this year, and you've got only one day to do it, and you only get to pick one spot to kill him. If you had to guess right now, what's the day you're gonna pick that's gonna give your very best chances, And describe to me what you think that exact spot would be for this very high stakes hunts. I'm gonna tell you right now, I lost this game because I am not good enough to go in and pick the right day in the right time. On one, I have to have a process of hunting seeing developing. That would be like I'll tell you how I take my pick. I'll take a wheel with the days and throw the freaking roulette wheel, and I would take a dark and I will throw it out my property map, and I will give you that because that is exactly what you're asking me to predict. There is no freaking way on earth that you can figure that out. Now, that one in Wisconsin. That was a pretty good educated type of thing there. But I'm telling you, man, it's that's I guess I ain't hunting ever again. But uh, that's what I say that that's that's fair. That's a fair answer. Um, okay. And then one other kind of totally different topic. But I do think that it's worth just covering off on it a little bit because I think you've talked a lot about different mistakes that have happened throughout the course of your hunting career and how you learn from these different things. You set up in the wrong spot of DearS as something you figured out, you'll learn from it, you get better because of it. Um. One thing that I'm curious if you'd be willing to just give me a little bit of perspective on, is that there was game violation that I know that you had had an issue with back I don't know, a decade ago, and if someone googles you, this thing pops up, and I would love to hear you, know, your perspective on what happened, what you learn from that, because I think there's a lot of people who probably have committed some kind of infraction and didn't realize it, or they did and they all of a sudden. I'm glad you asked that, because this is what we've been wanting to get out since day one. So there's everybody's got their fans, and everybody's got their people that want to bash on them and call them. So back years ago, coming up, anybody, everybody wanted to be the world's best bull hunter, and anybody who shot really big deer always would have this overtone of being a you know, other jealous guys would call them poachers or that they did things illegal, and I'm gonna tell you right now, they weren't too far off. There was a lot of guys doing a lot of shady ship um over the years. So because if you can imagine me coming up in the class of deer that I'm shooting right under everybody's noses, right on the same properties. Um, there was always that people that that hated your wanted you to fail. So over the years, you can imagine the forty years of hunting, I've had a few and then guys, you know, they they'll they'll bring them up and they'll and I know some of the guys who would bring these things up. I know him from years ago. You talked about outright poachers. I've actually taking those guys as projects and change them. They literally believed that a trophy deer would not be moving around in daylight hours. So I ended up falling victim to being in my tree stand ten minutes too late one year there for the reason of catching a trespasser poacher that was not my property. No air knock, but a law enforcement jealous guy on a police department stick a warden after me who we find out later on was watching me for two weeks straight every day evening hunting. And can you imagine being watched for two weeks straight on the evening post and then never being a minute after getting down on the right times doing it, and then one day, uh, you're ten minutes after and you get you get a violation. Now it really rubbed me wrong. That anybody would think that I'd have to cheat with the success I've had, And what really was good in the years to come is taking up this video and filming showing the freaking world that tropey whitetailer up under feet midday and you don't have to be a poacher. Um was validation. So I made the mistake I shouldn't have been even though I got a ticket. The law reads that as long as you don't have an aerow knock, you're not constituting hunting. Who out there has not been in a tree stand ten minutes after closing hours, I'll call them all wires, and every one of us is in our tree stands ten minutes before the season opens in the morning, ready to go. So UM, I didn't. The mistake I made was having the success I've had over the years. And then another occurrence that happened was in the state of Illinois where I ordered licenses and the state of Illinois did not send me all the proper licenses but sent me a permit. Ended up going in the woods and uh never even got caught hunting, but ended up big headlines read of the enemies you know, uh, trophy hunter caught hunting with nold license in the and everybody and your brother if you read that article, would have thought I was the most reckless nuts running around without licenses hunting over bait. Just total freaking insult to uh but mine everybody else is intelligent when that's all that was forgotten, and it was forgotten on their part was a habitat stamp. You know, we had licenses bought, common mistake. They usually let you go by your habitat stamp and then go back to hunting. Not this guy. This is a boon and Crockett that you know, some of these haters are trying to take down and they and somebody had literally taken that. When you when you google that that article. Here's what somebody is doing. That article has gone away for years and somebody is purposely bringing it up to the forefront to damage credibility. So whoever that is, they're a loser. There. Probably ain't got much on her wall and her very yellous type hunter. Um. But all the occurrences I've had over the years, we're all just little mistakes. I've talked to dozens of guys who's done the same thing, even residents of Illinois that I forgot to buy her habitat stamp Um ran into a wrong situation where you know things have happened. But I'll tell you point blank to this day, Uh, if I was a cheater, I would have a world record on my wall right now, and I'd have freaking dozen world class of deer more than I have right now. Um, this ain't what it's all about for me. It's about me and this White Tale, and I never gave her ship. Would anybody else ever thought about me and my talents of deer hunting. So I'm glad we got that out. And now there's no question anybody. If you want to call me a poacher, you want to do whatever you want, call away. But if you want to just dial into white Tail Addictions and watch all of this ship going down for your plane and color, you can see it. So I appreciate you being willing to talk about that, because I do think it's yeah, and I think that what you bring up is it's not it's it's important just to understand in your situation. But I think it's also a really important reminder for just the average Joel out there, because every state you go to, there are so many different little changes and variations and regulations, and honestly, goodness, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some little thing I got wrong that I had no idea about. Um. So it's just a good attorney out to read half these laws and regulations and you know, just think of it for a for a guy who does that for a limit to try and take. And I think what they were trying to take me with was they were trying to get rid of baiting in Wisconsin, and they were trying to get a high profile hunter basically pot hunting illegal over abate or something too to verify their case. But that is so freaking uh. That is the lowest thing you can freaking do um to a real trophy hunter is to accuse them of that. And um, it's it's like I said, it's just you've got all the facts you can look at, you can say all you want. And I know every other trophy hunter that I know, all these other guys that come up have experienced the same thing. They'll be and you know what, it's not that way anymore. There's not the jealousy there was years ago because there's the caliber animal around and people are a lot of people are getting them. Like years ago. You gotta remember, not a lot of guys weren't killing deer, and they were not good hunters. They were pissed four hunters and they didn't have the talent to do it. And just because I couldn't do it and you could there, you've got to be doing something wrong. That's the mentality that they had, um and it's sad. And I think even at Ordin, what I think he found out is the world was pulled over his frecking eyes and he might have seen the lights of that. Somebody just painting me out to be a scumbag was really a scumbag of Saul. So yeah, well, I feel like the morals story here is leave the jealousy at home and always double check your regulations and exactly you need to um even knowing your regulations and needn't even knowing the facts. Uh, you gotta do everything completely right. If you gotta imagine being in the woods for four four decades, every day to season evening in late different states, you're bound to step in a hole uh here there, and just like speed, you know, you get a speeding ticket here there. But these guys want to paint this ship is like you got caught coaching a deer. You did some ship, Dude. That would be the lowest thing I could ever do to myself to take one illegally. It's it's it's cheating, and I don't need to cheat. I have enough tools, um to win that game on my own. So if anything, I would like to put a little van is in their court. You certainly the proof is in the pudding. Um. That being the case, I think there's probably a lot of people that hurt our conversation today and want more, um. You want to learn more about what you're doing. You're putting on a lot of stuff these days, between the podcasts and white Tail Addictions and all the content. Where can people go to to learn more about that stuff? And uh? And if they want to get some of these tools you talk about as far as gear, can you fill us in a little bit there too? Yeah, so you can. You can go to a loan World custom gear and you can attamp into our uh YouTube page are white Tail Addictions page? Justin Hollendsworth heads up our whole um saying there you can put in applications. We had a ton of applications. We actually have had to shut a balance here for guys wanting to get involved. We want to see some of the new guys. Again, you're seeing a lot of really big deer shot on these shows. We're not it's it's it just happens to be that way, but we're not all about it. So we do have some deer that are not that big that we understand. Our guys are in areas at the caliber animals are not that size, or you're hunting public or you're just starting out. We want those stories too. We would like to have a few women in there. And the equipment. We have some high end equipment. Uh, That's what I've always done. There's a lot of other stand manufacturers out there. There's extual p that have some uh some more reasonable ones, so you can you can go there and purchase uh some stands that are a good price, or you can UM. I think we have some of the best best designs in the tree stand industry UM with our new line of stands, and I think guys appreciate those good tools. I appreciate them, and it's the reason why I keep making them better and better is because I want better and better equipment for myself, so um, and then we have also a little, uh you know, a tiny little podcast with the attributes and tribulations between a son and his father that are kind of interesting. But we've always enjoyed yours and you came highly recommend did from numerous people, so I'll say that about you. That's why I took the time to give you a um this podcast. And I wouldn't mind. Like I said, there's so much stuff to cover, we could never cover it on one, and I enjoy coming back on so all right, well, I'm gonna hold to that because I really would like to keep talking. This has been a lot of fun. And if it wasn't for my wife texting me and telling me that the kids are getting pissed because they need to eat, keep on talking. I hear your brother, Well, Andre, thank you. I hope we can chat more soon before the season or soon after. And if not, though, good luck come October one. Hey, brother, luck got nothing to do with it. Remember that it's a good I'll leave you. I'll leave you with that. That's a good point. Alright, guys, there you go, the one and only Andre du Quisto quite quite the the chat I mean, there's a lot to take in. There, a lot of good stuff. Um. I do want to circle back on one thing, though, and just make make things very crystal clear. I asked Andre about his running with the game violation situation because I think it's a situation we can all learn from. I was not doing this because I want to any way normalize by violating hunting regulations. I want to make sure we say, hey, anyone can make a mistake, anyone can do something that's not quite right, and we all have to take responsibility for that, and we all need to learn from that. So what I take away from andres situation is just that each and every one of us has to double and triple check regulations. We've got to pay attention to the changes each year, and we need to do our very best to follow them to a t um. I mentioned when we were chatting a second ago that a lot of this, myself included, has maybe unwittingly done something wrong without knowing it. And I'm saying that not to imply that that's okay. I'm not saying, oh, it's the government's fault for having too many hunting regulations. I'm not condoning any kind of violation or high later. I'm simply saying, be careful, be responsible, don't let a silly mistake ruin your hunt, or your year, or the next few years of your hunting life. Um. This conversation has just been a great reminder for me to personally go back and reread the regulations for Michigan and other states. I'm going to just to make sure I've got a downpad. Uh, And that's that. I think I'd recommend everybody do the same too. It's it's on us to make sure we've got it right. So that's that's why I bring something like this up. I think we need to just we need to talk about these things. We need to think about these things. And it's not the most fun thing to talk about, um, but it's it's important. So sorry we have to wrap up on that note. But hey, this podcast is all about learning as much as we possibly could from Andre in all sorts of different ways. I think we did that. We've heard a lot lots take in so I'm gonna let you go. Now, let's just do on all this. Let's you grind it on out. See it as anything you can add to your hunting repertoire and uh hopefully it's going to help you sum this hunting season. So thank you for tuning in, thanks for following along, and until next time, stay wired to Hunt.