00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number three thirty seven, and today in the show, we have got a fascinating discussion on the merits of the traveling hunter lifestyle and spot and stock hunting big white tales from the ground. All right, welcome to the wired ton podcast, brought to you by on X. Today, I am joined by Tony Treach for what ends up being or I guess it ended up being a really real cool conversation. I just got done recording this one. And Tony is not a hunting industry guy. He's not working full time in this line of work. Rather, he actually started and built up a construction company up in my neck of the woods of northern Michigan. Um was, I'm going to claim them as my neck of the woods since I love that area. But he has built his career and really his whole lifestyle in such a way that Tony is able to travel the country every single fall in search of deer and elk another big game, and he does it for two three four months a year. And I'm not just saying he goes out there for a week in September and then a week in October and then a week in November. No, he goes out there NonStop, like he'll take off in August and he won't come home until November, that kind of thing. And he's living out of a tent or the back of his truck, and he's hunting all sorts of critters across the West and the Great Plains, and and he used to spend a lot of time in the Midwest. And he's basically he's basically living this dream that a whole lot of us have, and he's doing it with a tremendous amount of success and of particular interest to me and probably to a lot of you. A big part of that success has come in the form of chasing and killing a whole lot of big, mature bucks. And he's doing it uniquely by botting, stalking, decoying, and calling him in on the ground. And I'm pretty sure this is right. Tony's done this without having used a tree stand since two thousand twelve. So today in the show, I'm grilling Tony on these two main topics Number one, How he's able to pull off this traveling vagabond hunting lifestyle for months at a time. What that's like, the good and the bad? You know? How does he balance his travel with family obligations, some d I y camping tips, and a whole bunch of stuff along those lines. And then we get into the nitty gritty of his aggressive approach to hunting big white tails on the ground. And I'm telling you what, this one's fascinating. It just got me really really excited, So I can't wait for you guys to hear it. But the corps there before that, you guys ever had that where words are in your mind and then when they get to your mouth, it's like you get stumbled up on your tongue. Happens to me a whole lot, just unfortunately I do it in front of tens of thousands of people have to hear me sound like an idiot, So sorry for that. But what A trying to say is that before that, I want to give you an update on the shed hunting trash collecting thing that Dan and I were brainstorming last week. Again another example of us sounding like idiots. Um, we've decided on a hashtag for that, and we're gonna call it times in Trash, So the hashtag sign and then times and Trash. I hope you guys will join Dan and I this spring. When you go out shed hunting, just bring along a trash bag and pick up trash throughout your walk, simple as that. And if you want to post a pick with your trash on Instagram, use that times and Trash hashtag, and maybe you know, give a couple of words of encouragement to others out there to do the same. Um. I'll be keeping an eye on the hashtag and just at random pick some folks to send some prizes out to nothing bigger, crazy, But I do want to just give some folks, you know, a little bit of extra incentive to do this and just you know, give you a pat in the back for doing a good thing. Um. So I'm gonna set out some word hunt stickers, maybe some signed copies of that wild Country, maybe a wired hunt yet you rambler stuff like that. So yeah, hopefully, hopefully it's just a fun way to get some room right there, to get see a whole lot of that's happening today. I'm hoping this is a good way to just remind us all to try to keep our wild places clean. And I gotta be honest, I'm I'm not always good about it. I get so focused on the task, as I do in many cases, I get tunnel vision and I just probably walk right by stuff without even thinking about it. And I realized how bad that I typically probably do, because yesterday I went out shed hunting and I brought my trash bag and I was much more focused on looking for trash. And when I started really paying attention to it, man, it was kind of depressing how bad it was that you couldn't walk fifty yards without seeing some more junk out there, And it just it was just a good reminder that I need to be better at this kind of thing, and maybe we, maybe a lot of us, can do a little bit better. I know a lot of people have been doing this a lot in the past, So kudos everyone out there who's been better than me at picking up trash out there in the woods. Thank you for inspiring me to try to get a little bit better. And thanks to the wire hunt fans several of you who suggested this to me over the previous months and which led to us trying this out so times in trash. That's the hashtag hashtag, not the hashtag having a hell of a day here, guys, that is the hashtag poster picks. I'll be keeping an eye out. And that's my final update. And now enough of all that, enough of my rambling, uh Tom tongue tumbling, miss Ques. Let's just get to this chat with Tony Treach. I think you guys really gonna enjoy this one, all right with me? Now on the line is Tony Treach. Welcome to show. Tony, Hey, thanks, Mark, glad to be on. I'm glad to make this happen. You're you're up in my neck of the woods, aren't you? Kind of the northern part of Michigan. Yep, Travis City. Nice sweet. I'm down in the southern part of the state. But my family deer Camp is just about a half hour south you there, so I love that part of the state. It's a great place. We're gonna talk about that later because I grew up about a half mile or a half hour south of here, too, so like pretty close. Nice. Yes, when we get off everyone to talk specifics, that's great. It's it's definitely that whole area, the northern lower kind of form the foundation of my outdoor passions, you know. And it's funny I keep finding and maybe I'm biased here, but it just seems like Michigan, especially West and Northwest Michigan, breeds just really really good sportsmen and women, really passionate hunters and anglers and also writers. I mean, um, you're up there. My buddy Steve Ronelli's from there. Um, you know you've got heavyway that spent time up there. Jim Harrison spent time up there. A whole lot of outdoors people seem to have had that that Michigan influence. Ones. Well, that's a pretty uh prestigious group to have my name in the way. I'm not sure if Well, hey, you're you're from everything. I've senior one hell of a hunter, and uh, you've you've done some different cool projects across the outdoor world too. So I've been kind of distantly aware of you for some time. And then I came across an article in Field and Stream last year I think I wish you were featured, and I got really intrigued, and I put you on my list of like people I really need to talk to eventually, and and somehow I got distracted and never ended up following up with you. But I'm glad we're finally doing it because you do a lot of things uniquely. But there's two things in particular that stand out to me that, um, they really intrigue me. You and any anytime you're jumping here and correct me if I'm if I'm off based on any of these things, I'm seeing about you and reading about you and hearing from you. But it seems like you have built a life for yourself that's pretty unique compared to most people. You've kind of built a world and a yearly schedule and a career that has centered on hunting and allowing yourself to go and hunt and adventure as much as you possibly want. Um Am I right in that you have kind of very thoughtfully crafted your life to create the time and space and freedom to to hunt this way. Is that right? Cool? Yeah, that's uh, that's true. Um. I started a business in my early twenties as a carpenter. Uh realized real fast, if I want to spend time hunting, it was going to have to you know, there was basically that was the only way. It was to be my own boss and U and I, you know, measure that the people that worked for me and the people that I worked with no that you know, it's it's kind of this thing when to fall rolls around, Tony is going to be gone, and it's it's definitely evolved over the years from just being gone maybe a couple of weeks at a time, traveling around the Midwest in Illinois and Iowa, Ohio and Kansas, to now traveling all across the country and the mountains. And the biggest biggest hurdle for me is, you know, with that is is managing the people. And but I've been pretty lucky that I against good people and it's it's it's worked out so far. So you're you're from some of the things I've heard. You're sometimes taken off in July or August and then not coming back till what November or December or something like that. Is that is that accurate? Uh? There has been years yet last year I think you got left or I guess it was. This past year, it was wasn't as bad. Well, if you asked, my wife should probably tell you it was bad, But it wasn't as bad as two those two those nights left July at something like that, you know, and then that range of last two weeks of a wi somewhere here because I had a Nevada tag and early Nevada tag that I wanted to scout for and I've never been in the unit. I was just going off from Smithfold from another friend and uh, and then you know, I just basically had hunts lined up all you know, you know, all across the West right up until well pretty much the end of November. And usually I'll try to get home, you know, sometime in late October before I leave again for the White Tail Rep. That's like a whole other separate thing. But that year I didn't get to and I was gone almost almost four months ago there spent this past year was only I think it was just shy of three months. So so a lot of people, I think a lot of people dream of doing something like that, right, this idea of just hunting NonStop tour in the country, checking off all these bucket list hunts. A lot of people like that idea, um, but not a whole lot of people actually do it. Why why do you do Why do you actually do it? Why? Like, what's at the root of this being like a reality of your life. I realized, like it's really easy to say, well, I just love to hunt, but there's gonna be something deeper that has that has led you to like this very extreme. UM, I think it's fair to say, like an extreme lifestyle choice. What um probably the biggest reasons no one's told me. No. Uh, I just recently got married so that you know, and I've vend her for three seasons before I before I put a ring on her fingers, so she knows what she's influenced. But but we actually joked about putting in the pre nup field agreements, you know that I would we we you know, agreed on three months to a year instead of four. But I've just I've I got really good at what I did for a living. Um Like, so in my area, you know, I'm yeah, basically a KURP free subcontractor, and then I have reputation of being one of the best. So myself, my guys were in high demand and people that wanted us. You know, it came with the with the expectation that you know, I'm not going to be there for these months and they know that, UM, if I wasn't good at what I did, I probably wouldn't have been able to demand that extra clause in the contract, so to speak. But because we were really good, we had a great reputation of getting things done the right way and not taking advantage of situations and you know, you know, treating people right. And because of that, um, everything just kind of fell into place. And and I had great employees too, you know, it's I've had, you know, for the last twenty years, I've had some fantastic men working for me. And um, if it wasn't for that, you know, if I had never found good employees, and you know, you can't do something like that. Um. As far as the maybe in my nature like what makes it possible, it's just it's probably the same reason the mountains are are so intriguing to me now, uh, and I spend more time there than I do in the Midwest. It's just because there's there's there's a little bit of a mispeak to it that like the next what's over the next mountain? You know, what's the next you know, it's it's just there's there's something always calling me to go a little bit further and try something new. Yeah, you definitely can can relate to that. Do you think that? And I gotta believe it's probably something both. But I'm curious how you think about it. Do you look at this. Is it more so the hunting itself? Is it the fact that you just love the hunt? Or is it the adventures side of things and like the whole travel and journey of months at a time living off grid, because that, unless this has changed recently, as I understand it, you're pretty much camping the whole time. I don't think you get hotels and things like that typically. Um, what is it? Is it the combination issue? Is that one of the other that really makes this thing such a thing? Or or just described to me the different facets of this kind of expedition of swords good questions Mark, So that's a yeah, yeah, that's a good that's a good question. I think that there's part. I don't think that because I do it all different types of hunting. So it's backpack. Some of it's you know, I have like I set up a car camp in your right, I don't use the hotel rooms. I think I stayed in the hotel room one time last year, um or last season, I mean the and that was just because I got done super late at night. No, it was covered in elk blood. But the yeah, it was. It was a good day. The I don't think it is necessarily the hunt. Um, I shouldn't say that. It isn't actually the punging of the tag. It's the look. The thing I look forward to the most. And that probably would explain it better is scouting season. Yeah, and and and this also is one of my big secrets that helped me be successful at take and giant animals every years. Get there early, put the time in scouting. I'd much rather have a week of scouting in three days of honey or four days of hunting than you know, one or two days they look around and then ten days of hunting. Um, that scouting is key, and that scouting is also my favorite time of the year. Like you give me ten days you know, just cruising around looking for it doesn't matter if it's Kansas white tails, you know, on the prairie, or if it's Colorado up in the high country in August above timberline, scouting with a camera and trying to find that buck that I want to you know, okay, you know be my target. Like, okay, this is what we're gonna this is the guy we're gonna go after. That's that's my favorite time, the barn hunt. Yeah, man, I can totally relate to that. I love those days proceeding the hunt, when you're watching and looking and and enjoying everything around the hunt. Still you're basically hunting, but it's there's still that anticipation that that's pretty awesome. So okay, so let's let's dig in a little further into what this is actually what's the reality of this kind of thing, because again I'm thinking, I know there's a lot of people out there that's sitting their cubicle and dream of living your life, dream of that lifestyle. Um, I'm sure it's not all rainbows and butterflies though, um So, what is what are some of the best things of of this kind of lifestyle or about this your your two or three or four month voyage. What are the some of the things that stand out is like the best unexpected moments, Like, of course, we know seeing a big box great and we know that, um, you know, getting a deer in the ground is gonna be a great thing. But what are a couple of the little things that just make the inside of you smile. And then on the flip side, what are a couple of the things about this lifestyle, about that two or three or fourth trip that are just like the the the unknown ship that you deal with that most people wouldn't think about. What are a few things on both sides of the coin to stand out? Boy? Um? You know, I think that probably they both revolve around the same thing, and that's people I get to meet, and I have met some amazing people on the side of the mountain that are friends this day. People in every state, Um. And you know, you can see some cool, crazy animal stuff if you're in the woods, you know, whether it be the Midwest or the mountains for hundred and twenty days a year, you're going to see some stuff that not many of the people are seeing. And I've seen some crazy things happen. I've seen animals doing things that maybe you know, most people don't see. So that's that's always cool. Um. The worst things that can happen are back to the people thing. It's you know, I'm away from the people I love for a long time. Um, And every year I make the you know, my wife now and I we've always made the agreement that you know, if I tag out early somewhere and I still have you know, if I have, you know, maybe six days before the next hunt starters, maybe I'll only scout four days and I'll fly literally just parked the truck at a at an airport, fly home for a night or two, and then fly back to that airport and then jump back the truck and start over again. But it just never seems to happen. It's like I'm always running behind, um and I'm literally racing from from from mountain, you know, from state to state, and it's not I mean, sometimes you tag out early and it's like, wow, I got you know, I can leisurely now drive from New Mexico to to Mountana, which if anybody has never done that before, you're basically driving from Canada to Mexico and it's long. It's further than it is from Michigan to Nevada. And I did that trip three times last year. Um. It's it's not always just relaxing and fun and it's uh, it's just go go, go, go go to you know, And it's and it's my fault. I mean I piled too many tags on a lot of times, and um, I'm not I'm not just hunting premium you know, limited entry tags them, I'm a lot of I'm not any tag I can get a lot of times. I'm just trying to throught my schedule. And it sometimes becomes a little bit of aware. You know, wears on a guy and you missed the people at home, you missed your dogs, you even you know, I missed my co workers, the guys that you on the job site. The uh you know, you're with modern technology, you'll we always got everybody readed our fingertips, and we can, you know, chat and text with people and friends. But um, when when I'm out there for that long even I mean when I run into a gas station, you know, I'm I'm chatty catty, which is not my normal personality. Uh. And people probably you know, they don't know me, so they don't think anything of it. But I mean, you just you can only talk to yourself, but without going somewhat crazy for so long before you you need a little bit of And well that's what the things I was curious about is is I've done a lot of these solo trips myself. Um, but they're always they've always been you know, seven to twelve days. Um. And even in that period where I'm all by myself on a hunt of some kind, camping on the back of my truck, even then it starts to I like it a lot, but you still do start to feel a little bit that loneliness or a little bit of that kind of inside your head cabin fever. Um. How do you how do you deal with that when you're doing that for a hundred twenty days? Or is it? Was it simply what you just said. You just talked to folks at the gas station or at the diner and stuff like that. Is there any other things that you're doing to to stay sane? Well, I think I probably started talking to myself on the on the second day. They're second way from home. Um, it's that that starts pretty quick. It's when I start to argue with myself. That's when I know there's a problem. But the the I'm I'm how you say this, Um, I can I can focus on focusing on problems pretty pretty well. And when I have a target animal, if I if you know, if I've found an animal, even if I haven't seen him in a long time, if I as long as I know it's there. It's super easy for me to focus and stay like I mean literally, I wake up in the morning with one thought in my mind the whole day, hunt hard, go to bed, you know, in a tent somewhere on the side of the mountain wherever my day ended, and the next day start over again. And then ten days can go by before I realize like, oh crap, I'm out of food and I gotta hike back the truck or whatever. So it's it's only when I don't have that I would just say that point of focus. Yes, So you go somewhere and you scout for five days, you don't find anything. I don't find anything I want to hunt. That's when things start turning and get weird. Or if I've had I've had literally had you know, my buckshot out from nderneath me. I've I've literally had uh judy scoping pictures of a of a of a book that I found a couple days before I was on my way to another because I stopped in that state to just scout for like four or five days. I was leaving that state go to another state to scout and then hunt, and I'm having dinner at a little restaurant and I look at my phone on Instagram and I saw the same book, but I just took pictures of an hour or two ago in the same bed. Someone else literally just found him. That's that's I mean, he hadn't even moved yet, like he was still there. And you know, your heart thinks. It's at times like that, it's where it's really hard to just to keep it together. And but if I guess, if there's if that carrots out in front of me, if I can, you know, if I can see the end, then it's really easy for me to just buckle down, focus on what I gotta do and get it done, and they move on to the next day. It's funny you mentioned that, Um, you know, when you're so focused on something I found personally, when I'm hunting or fishing in particular for me, fly fishing in in particular, bow hunting. Um, when I'm involved in one of those two things, almost nothing else can get in my head. Like for for that five hours or that ten hours or that seven days, I'm fully enveloped and consumed by this thing, and I don't think about politics, and I don't think about the crap. That's going on at home or some weird tiff with a friend or something going on with work. Um, I can just be wholly consumed by this one thing. And that's always been something that I think is is really unique that I don't know if I can find that anywhere else in the world in my life. Um, that's something that's always drawn me to these things. I think. Is that something that's true for you too? I means that's part of what pulls you out doing these things for so long? Is it too? I don't want to say it's an escape, um, but maybe maybe there's a little bit of that to what I like about it. I'm not sure how exactly I would explain it, But does anything that resonate with you? Yeah, No, that there's definitely a different feeling. I get what I mean Literally when I'm when I'm pulling up to a trailhead and there's a big mountain in front of me, and there's you're not thinking about anything else, Like it's just I've got a big task in front of me. And maybe it's somewhere you've been, maybe it's somewhere you haven't been, but either way, it's there's a gigantic puzzle in front of that you've got to figure out and it's gonna take everything, you know, if you want to do it, you know, get the most out of It's gonna take everything you've got to get it done. And it's the same thing in the Midwest too. I mean, um, you know, the problems are different, but it's it's uh, it's well with any trip, no matter where you're going. I guess as far as your on that same line of thought, you have to have everything settled and good at home before you can go on a trip and be away from home doing you know, doing a hunt like that for that for any length of time. Otherwise when you do get them out and you're still gonna be worrying about the problems you left at home. Everything has to be buckled up and tied, you know, tidy at home before you can really enjoy anything you know, out there. So it's but that's a great point speaking along those lines. One of the things that that you know, I've talked about for years and years here on the podcast with with my buddy Dan, We've always talked about the challenges of of how you can balance your love for hunting with your obligations at home and with your relationships? Um, how what does that look like for you? Um? With your now wife? Um how? I think one of the biggest things that a lot of people have a hard time with is trying to explain to their significant other. And maybe it's maybe it's a wife, or maybe it's maybe the hunters of female and she's got a husband who doesn't get it, whatever it is, explaining like why this matters so much? Explaining why you have to go off for a seven day trip or a seven week trip. Um, how have you gone about trying to explain that to your girlfriend and now your wife and and haven't makes sense to her? Or or is the reason she's your wife now because she just innately got it? Yeah? That there, there's probably a little bit of both there she uh literally like on our first date, I'm you know, I learned real quick. You better explain it to him up front kind of what you do with your life because if or there's going to be a big surprise later for one of you. And so she knew exactly what she was getting into. And you know, I think they all would, uh, Like when when you tell someone that you you know, like when I tell somebody I hunt a lot. You know, You're like, oh, yeah, how much like woll usually, you know, three or four months. We're like, oh yeah, we you know, we hunt birds in September and then all the different scenes. I'm like, no, no no, I mean I'm gone for three or four months straight. And so literally I remember telling Jody that over the phone, um, and she, uh, She's like, what do you mean? And I think we were facetimeing, and I literally like I took my phone and I just kind of like I was in my living room and I just kind of like made a little three sixty spin so she could see all because I've got a there's I don't even know how many heads in the house. And she's like, oh, that's a different type of art than I was thinking would be on the walls in the house. But so she knew she was getting into um, and she's seen the passion, ah, that I have for it, and she knows I'm a pretty passionate guy about everything. And I remember, you know, after she knew me for a while, and she looked at some of the pictures that I'd take these, you know, I say, after I got something on the ground, Um, and she could see the type of smile that I had. She's like, she's like, she's remember her saying like, I don't I've never seen a smile like this, Like I don't like, I don't, I don't know that. I've never seen you that happy before. Um. And a couple of years ago I got a chance to take her with me. She was able to get some time off from her work to go on a scouting trip up in Colorado the high country and late July, mid July, and you know, hike Upbove Timberly and is just beautiful, big green basins, and she got to see all kinds of animals, and um, I think she I think she kind of fell in love with it too. And I think she understood. I mean, she she gets whites it means so much to me, and um, she realizes that that's just it's part of who I am. Yeah, that's great to find a partner like that, who can you know, appreciate that and and support you in that way. So this raises an interesting question though, because you have someone who understands why you love this and who's been out there with you and and has found joy in it too. Um, why do you choose to do most of this stuff solo? Though? Um, I know I've got friends that wonder why I like to take off for these trips on my own. Um My, my wife thinks, you know why, it's got to be lonely or boring or dangerous or something. Um. And I certainly do like doing some trips with friends. There's a certain different kind of fun with that. But there's something special about taking off on your own and just being with yourself and the mission in front of you. Um, what's what's that for you? Why is that an important part of what you do? Or maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's not an important part. Well, I think it started out it's just a matter of I was I was more effective, it was more lethal alone. Um. When I realized that when I was hunting in the Midwest, but with buddies who weren't as careful about how they got to their true stands or got out at night, or they weren't as careful about you know, Uh, they're sent setups or playing the win and it's like I just got sick of dealing with And I love the guys are that they're you know, they're they're great guys, and I just got to the point where I'm like, I don't want to have to deal with everybody else's mistakes. I've got enough of my own. And I started hunting on my own, and I started killing bigger, better animals. And so when I went to the mountains and started doing out there, I just it was natural to be alone. And even though I didn't know what I was doing. Thank God for a couple of great websites out there that you know, you know, you're you can really learn a lot about that. But I it's and and and honestly, I have hunted with somebody. I think that this is two years in a row now. I've hunted with a with a guy that I met on the side of the mountain in Wyoming. We've we became friends when we met, and then he invited me to hunt with him and just a general dreary and Wyoming the last couple of years. And I spent a week with him the last two years. But it's it's, uh, it's not it's not hard for me to be alone. I think that, Okay, I'm very comfortable and I don't like, you know, I don't get scared. I don't get lonely. I mean, since I don't get lonely. I missed my family and friends. But it's not I don't need There's no nothing in me that just says I, you know, I need to have people around all the time. That's and that's probably my my true you know, that's that's kind of why I am. I've always just been a little bit of a loner in Um. If the friends are around, great, If not, that's great too. But it definitely has his challenges, especially in the mountains when you get something down. But it's the I actually look forward to hunting now probably with people. Those are like almost my you know hunt woman that I was talking about about my buddy Derek. Um, we didn't shoot deer last year, neither of us here, and it was one of my most memorable hunts of the year. There's a lot of fun, but so it's one of the hunts down that I look forward to. And uh, I'm sure there'll be more in the future where I'm not alone. But suspending so much time on the road doing this kind of thing. Um, I gotta believe you've you've put your gear through the ringer, you've put your whole camp life process through the ringer, you figure some stuff out by Now, Um, what are a few of the most crucial pieces of gear that you've come across that just make living on the road or living you know, pull off on National forest land or somewhere. What are a couple of things that stand out? Is, man, this thing is the ticket, or maybe it's a customized piece of year or something is Is there a couple of things that stand out? Is something that jee has just changed your life in some small way. Oh, this is funny. It has really not much to do with hunting. But it's one of those little little pump showers that I think it's made by Nemo, and it's just this little teeny You put a couple of gallons of water in it and step by it with your foot and it's just got like a six ft hose on the end of it, and it is a game changer. Like I Yeah, without that thing, there are a lot of hunts that I'd be I'd be running a hundred miles back every couple of days for a shour because there's no other good sources of water, no cricks to jump in, and um, that thing is save me a lot of few on time. UM, good food, Um, when you're gone that like, so when I leave, my whole truck is packed for you know, for that entire time. I've got a little trailer I pull behind me with freezers and coolers and uh, the last couple of years, I've taken a quad literally a small the smallest format for a TV I could find, just because I beat my truck up so much over the years. And the whole back of the trucks just full of gear but but very organized, and all of those things in there, Like there's nothing in the truck I don't need, and there's a bunch of things that I have spears of. But one of the most important things that that's so something I ever looked for a few years is food because when you're living off from dehydrated freeze, dried food for that long um, and snack bars and jerky and you know just you know, you know, the lightweight things that we take up the mountains with us, or the things that we have a tent somewhere. It is just it it gets old real fast. Your body doesn't doesn't do well with it. And I would say food is one of the like good like good good freeze dried food and there are some really good options out there now. Um, and good bars like you have to be really careful with that stuff. You know, you're you're average, and I think they're getting better. But the old stand by, like you know what they called power bars or whatever. Those things are just pullsh sugar and a bunch of them work. And there's a bunch of healthy ones now. But yeah, a shower and good food basically as the key things that that people wouldn't think of that are pretty key of the truck. Yeah, So what's what's the food of choice? What's your favorite brands or meals or bars? Um? What ends up in your truck when you head out for these things? Well, the bars and oh there's so many new ones out there. It's almost like I think there's three a far different brands in my in my hometown now. Um, so I'm always trying to do bars and that and that's I really haven't settled down one. Um. As far as freeze ride food food, Um, there's a small company called Off Grid Food Company and they make absolutely fantastic freeze drig food and it's uh, I want to say, it's all organic. All they're like, there's no like if you if anyone's ever eaten Mountain House for a long time, you know it's just pactful of SODI and the I think that's part part of it. I think it's just part of the way to keep it keep its shelf life. But I want to say off Gride only uses sea salt, so it's it's it's got a lot of sea salt in it, but it's it's naturally healthy salt um. So the difference the way I feel after eating Avery five days first or fifty versus H Mountain House is substantial. And H and they're He's good. They're good people too. There's nothing better than finding a product you love and then getting to me the people that the they're behind it and there they're great dudes. So that's awesome. I when I talked to someone like you and hear about the things that you're doing out there, it gives me this itch to get out and do something like that too. It gives me I already had that that it's right now this time of year, I've got crazy cabin fever. I just want to get out doing some something different and take off on a road trip and head off in the mountains or whatever might be. Um, but I'm definitely getting that again just hearing you describing, you know, the trips that you're going on, and I'm getting inspired. Who has inspired you when it comes to this stuff? Is there Is there a a person or is there a book or a writer or a movie or anything out there that has kind of inspired this wander lust or sense of adventure in you. Boy, that's a good one. Um. Oh my god. My dad was the guy that had me in a tree stam when I was eight years old, you know, tell me to be quiet, uh for you know, But he never I don't think he ever hung out of the state until I was out of high school. Um. And I'm taking him back to Kansas this year with me for the first time and who knows how long. Um. He's definitely been my biggest inspiration in the hunting side of my life. But as far as inspiration for getting and doing doing the you know, the hunting away from home, there wasn't. When I started doing around the Midwest, I really didn't know if anybody else that was doing it. Um, I'm sure there was, it just was prior to the internet or what maybe Internet but social media, and there wasn't there just wasn't anybody that I knew of doing it. Um. When I started transition to the mountains and the plains from the Midwest, Aaron Snyder, the now president of Kafaro, was one of guys that, you know, it was one of the guys that back in the days on the forums and stuff, he was willing to help guys and ah, he helped me um a lot. So you know, I reached out to him at it out of a necessity. I bought a backpack that was just killing me, UM, and I reached out to him. And it wasn't even the backpack that that he sold, but he helped me, you know, figure out how to get fit to me and then he gave me some advice on my next backpack purchase, which was one of theirs. And oh my god. Yeah, so he was he was a big help. But that I mean, I don't I've never really really been someone too like idolize anybody. So it's just been there's been some people that have helped me along the way. But um, discourage men. Yeah. Yeah. The rock slide was like I said before that if it wasn't for you know, like the information is on the internet, uh, like in place with like rock Slabry, you know, I write for sometimes they that helps guys like I didn't know anything. You know, it helps guys that you want. You're in the Midwest and you want to come out of the mountains and do a d I y hunt, you can literally, Yeah, there's guys in there that will help you, and there's information that will help you with whatever you want. I didn't it really. It takes a lot of pain on alerting to it, for sure. And that's that's basically all. I did a lot of great resources out there. So so as I understand it was somewhere around two thousand and eleven. Oh, I guess maybe I'm totally wrong on that. Um. But at some point, as you start heading out west, more and more often started doing the whole mountain thing, the prairie hunting. UM. I think I read somewhere that somewhere around two thousand eleven you realize that when it came to white tails, you didn't want to use a tree stand anymore. You decided to ditch the standard game that you been doing forever and stay on the ground. Um. First off, is that correct? And then secondly, how did you come to this epiphany that you were going to be a more lethal hunter on the ground than in a tree. That is that there's a lot there there. That's a whole podcast. The So I grew up like like I said, I was in the tree stand and my dad was kind of one of those guys, was not afraid of heights, and none of his hunting buddies would climb his tree stands, and I was up there at eight years old with them, And so my tree stands became the same way. When I was hut in the Midwest, none of my buddies would use my stands because it was not uncommon for me to be a thirty plus near And I saw it once. Um. Not not that they had any effect on me, not want to hunting them anymore. But I've lived the whole you know, sitting a tree stand all day, all of November, every single day of the month. I've done that the whole program. So I understand all how effective it can can be when you're in the right places. Um. It wasn't until I was in Kansas, um, my very first year there, and the guys that invited me to come with them. They were actually rifle hunters. And so my first year, the first three years in Kansas where you're actually hlping my the rifle. Um, we got there and the one you know, they had hunted previously. They're just bird hunting. And the rancher always told me, hey, you guys were never shoot shoot some of these brown you know rats as he called them. Just come on out here and anytime you want. And like, I mean, he's a rancher that has just who knows how much property and knows everybody else. And so he met us that we met him at this this four corner out the middle of nowhere when it's just flat as a pancake. I can't I can't see a treaty. We pull over on side of road there is this truck and me to the reductions. He was like, well, I wanted to meet here because we've got the northwest section to us here and then across the road, I've got the first half of this section. And then you know, we got and he's and he's pointing all the you know, and he's talking in all this different stuff. I'm looking around, like, where the hell are we gonna kill a deer here there's not a single tree, there's not a bush. And then we we drove from the spot to spot and he showed us probably fifteen spots that afternoon, and there was one property that had some like a little river about, you know, something like a choke thick little river bottom section, and all of us just our I just lit up on that, like that's what we're gonna be hunting. And uh, that first opening day came and we were all kind of covering different corners of that little Brushing Creek brot on that we had phone and we saw some bucks, nothing, nothing good. But all of us when we got back, we're like, oh, yeah, I was seeing but I was glassing up deer like way out in the middle of the grass, just betted there. They were walking around and they bed in the grass and they just disappeared. And it took us a while to realize it. The deer there weren't They weren't. They weren't living where there was trees. They weren't staying when they were trees. They weren't. I mean, they go through there, they've moved through there, but they weren't using it for betting. They weren't using it for it was just a travel corridor. It was all. It wasn't It wasn't even one that they used often. Um. And that's obviously gonna change in different areas where there's more trees or whenever. But for us it became a out of necessity. It's like, well, there's no sense in having a tree stand or even a ground blind at this point. We just gotta stay mobile and use our glass and then find them and then put a plan together. Um. And that's how that's how it started. I think that same year that I went down there, um at eleven or twelve, wanted two uh in I guess what was before that? Actually that that year in Kansas, but a couple years later was my last year in Illinois that I hung out of a tree standing. Um. I haven't went back. I always keep one. I was keeping a little more from the back of the truck, just in case I find that one spot where whatever. I know, there's there's situations I've came across from, like dang it, if I just if if I just sit on this water hole, that bowl is gonna come in and that buck's gonna he's using it every day. It's dry, So there's I'm not ignorant to the fact that I'm missing some opportunities by sticking to the ground only. UM and I and I'm not counted out. But I'm having so much more fun on the ground. It's um, you know, rack rattling him in, decoined him in, calling him um, just spotting stock, sneaking, you know, crawling up on a bed a bettered buck is It's just so much more fun than sitting there freasing your tail off. UM. And I think that I was one us had more fun too. I was killing bigger, better bucks every year doing it. And three I I mean, I was just sick of sitting in the tree stands, the the the it just it just became something that I just didn't a tool that I just don't use anymore. So I want to get I want to get into the nitty gritty of of how you actually pull off a hunt like this. So I want to get into the actual step by step process of finding deer and stalking them down on the ground. But before before we get into how you actually do that, I've heard you talk about pulling this off in places like Kansas or Montana. UM, different planes kind of open prairie type habitat doing this ground pound for white tails. But do you think that anything you've done there and had success, could that be replicated or could some of that translate to trying to hunt on the ground in somewhere like Iowa or Michigan or Pennsylvania in certain circumstances like is there any way that this could work somewhere else? Or does this strategies this prairie only. Uh, it's a good question. I am not hunted Pennsylvania. I've I've killed Michigan deer on the ground, my best Michigan buck I killed on the ground. Um, it's very terrained, it's it's it's a percent terrain dependent. Um. If it's open enough where you can see them and either see where they're going to or coming from, have them patterned, or see them bed, then it's doable. Um. All you need is a lack of other eyes from other deer to pick you off and to know where their location is. And then it's just a manner of putting in you know, the variables, lining everything up and in your favor, and you know, don't let them see a smelly herriot and slide in and get an arrow on them. I mean it's I think a lot of guys over think it sometimes. Um, But I know I've hunted in Illinois and Iowa and a lot of spots where there's the deer just don't bed where you are gonna be able to see them. So it's in those spots where I've hunted in the Midwest most of them it's probably not work. Um. Maybe there are some spot out to western I would it be better. But where I hunted there, it was you know those two were they were you know, buried in like a tick where they were sleeping. So um, terrain and cover dependent. Yeah, yeah, Okay, So then let's reverb though back to what sounds like is your favorite kind of area for this kind of thing, which is that open ground kind of country? Um? First off, I have started hunting some of these states of hunting Nebraska, North Dakota, Montana for white tails, and I've fallen in love with that great plains habitat and and just everything about it. Um, and have loved now taking my favorite game animal and chasing it in this different kind of setting. Why is it for you that it's so much fun or so different or so compelling that from what it sounds like. It seems like almost all of your white tail hunting now is is out in those kinds of place, or at least a good part of it. Why is that so it means it just the ability to track them on the ground, or is there something more to it? I think, Uh, well, I mean you grew in Michigan, you know what it's like there. I mean, we have how many hunters in the field and opening Dave, I mean, it's a whole lot name on gas right, Like everybody meets and outdoors here and we kill a couple hundred thousand year a here. Um. You go to Kansas and they look at their numbers. They killed fifty thousand and sixty thousand a year. That's it. Um. You go out there during riful season, you'll see people driving around, you'll see orange in the trucks, and you'll see people hunting. You go out there and during both season, I know exactly who I'm going to see. It's the same guys I see every single year down there. They don't know what they're doing. They're really great guys. They try to help them out. They don't listen to me. They think I'm crazy for not for you know, for not hunting in my tree stand on the one tree on my property that you know that we hand down there. It's like and so part of it is that I've got I mean, it's crazy. I knock on doors and I don't get told no during both seating down there. People Just it's so that that's a wonderful part of it. Um. The the way that the white tails act in those open prairie areas to whether it be uh Nebraska, Eastern Montana, Kansas, they are very, very very aggressive. And I think it's just because this is also my theory on why they have so many more broken times like I've I don't remember last Kansas shot that doesn't have didn't have broken times. Now the one I got this year, he broke one overnight in the night when I first found him to when I found him the next morning and killed him. Um, I think that you take two big, aggressive mature bucks in the rud in Iowa, there are five yards away from each other on the same property, walking in opposite directions, parallel with each other. They aren't gonna see each other. Most likely, there's too many terrain changes, there's too many you know, tricks streams, trees, whatever, it's thick. They can't see each other. They're not gonna fight today. You take the same two bucks in Kansas, same distance apart. There, they see each other and they're gonna close that five hund yards and they're gonna square off. And I see it happen all the time. I think they fight way more out there, and it makes them way more susceptible to decoy, more susceptible to rattling and calling. And I mean, you you want to talk about excitement. Uh. I think it's four years now. I've been using the little heads up decoy thing. I stick on the pipe bow and there's a little mountain in front of my behind my stabilizer. I stick to decoy on that thing. And every single year since I started using it in Kansas, it's part of the it's part of why and how I killed the box. I mean, they see that and they just pin their ears back and they don't look at you again. They're coming in there and they're gonna come kick your ass. I swear to God. The big older bucks see that, and they don't. You could you could move around, you can shuffle. It's like they don't even they don't even look again. Their eyes roll back like a moose like you see in the movies, and their head starts wobbling back and forth, and they just put on a show and walk great to you. Um, it's and that that stuff happens more often than than not. It's that's probably because I'm turning the biggest ould simature bucks. The younger ones would neck that way and the but um, there's nothing more exciting than that. So it's it's easy for me not you know what, My time is valuable, right, and so I've got all these different states in tags lined up, you know, for me to take time out of remember to go hunting Illinois. It's tough anymore because going on sitting a tree stand and hope something comes by, or you don't want to go to Kansas or you know, Nebraska and make something happen. Yeah, I get that. I can see the appeal to that for sure. Um, So I want to I want to talk a lot more about that whole decoy thing you're doing. But before that, I want to I want to rewind a little bit and and try to walk through the entire process, and then we'll get to the decoin part. When we get to that in your hunt. But let's let's say we're heading out for a hypothetical trip like this, um, or how about this. I want to go out and do a hunt like this myself this year and for the last like five years, I've been heading out west at the beginning of September to do a western whitetail hunt and um. And I've got a certain way I have gone gone about it. But I've always focused on the river bottoms. I've never focused on the open country like you have. I've I've found a I would always look for a piece of public land that has a river running through it with a bunch of cotton woods and you know, Russian olive cover and stuff like that, something that's gonna get those deer down into that tight space. And then I would observe and then hang tree stands based off what I saw bed defeed patterns and an ambush from in that kind of way. UM. But you seem like you've got a very different way to do it. How do you go about is finding the starting point? Because for me, it's looking online and finding those river bottoms that intercept with public land and that's my starting point. But when you're looking for the kind of place that has your kind of hunting in that kind of white tail experience, what are you looking for to just like figure out where to start when you're scouting maps or whatever. Well, basically, you know, it's it's I look for God, you know, it's most of most of my I do a lot of East scouting. I guess you could say, like you're talking there in the mountains, but as far as the Midwest or you know, the plains and stuff. All my all my hunting spots that I hunt now and I used now have came from firsthand being there, being in the area and just looking on with my you know, boots on the ground um or you know, more often in that area you're sitting up behind the wheel, um and just covering ground and looking and then knocking on doors. I think that you know, obviously they need they need food, and you know, there's never a problem with you food. There's usually not a problem with water. The most of the good luck that I have this type of hunting is in November, so at that point the bucks aren't thinking about food anyways. Um So, if you can find the doors, there's most likely going to be bucks around. Um, and that's and that's basically it. And then it's just a matter of you know, you all listen seeing in Kansas knocking on doors to me getting as much acquiring as much permission as possible. And a lot of that land that I have permission to hunt on is open to anybody that asks. I mean, it's not it's not like I have sole permission on it. Um. They'll say yes to just about anybody, as long as you know you promised to close gates and don't leave any trash and don't drive over their fields. It's there's just it's just as quite as much as you can look for those and keep watching those groups, and eventually a buck will show up. And it's it's really it's a lot simpler to me, it's a lot simpler than than uh. And then there's less variables than them when you're hunting in the mountains. Um, it's just a matter of, uh, just gotta just gotta find the doves. Okay, that that makes sense. I like that. Let's say then that we or I I'm gonna keep my hypothetical me into this. Um, I decided that I'm going to try this kind of hunting. I found an area in eastern Montana or North Dakota or South Dakota, or Kansas or Nebraska. I found some stuff. It's got some big, open grassy hills. There's some river bottom. There's a few little ponds there, a little bit of everything. It looks kind of good. And either I've got a bunch of free permission, or there's public land and a bunch of it that I can roam. Now I'm heading out there, and I arrive, and you're with me, and you're my You're my guide telling me what we should do, how we should start hunting, or how we start scouting. We just arrive, walk me through what we're doing next. Are we gonna spend the first morning, first night scouting, or or just just walk me through what you're gonna say. Let's let's do this. Let's imagine it's mid day, uh, and what would what we do is drive around and find all the high points and whether it be the farmer's burn, if he has a ladder that goes up the side of it, or a silo, or maybe an oil well or an oil retainer retainer um or maybe just a hill, and those could be all the spots that we're gonna cover the last two hours in the first two hours of every day, and we're gonna sit up there and we're gonna glass and we're gonna we're gonna rush from one spot the next we're gonna be at one of them. Uh. You know, if there's one of those spots, maybe there's maybe there's one of those that you there's a potential for bucks for dear to be all the way around at three year and sixty degrees. We're not I try to get to that one first thing in the morning because we're gonna be bumping deer. We're gonna save that one until it is after it's daylight and we can kind of slide in from one way or the other. But um, we'll want to be at one of them at first at daylight, and then it's just a matter of covering ground and find them. Uh. One of the things that we realized we were doing wrong in Kansas, uh right away. It took us a year to figured out, but we were doing it wrong right away. And what has what I mean was the old mentality of get into your trees, stand or you're blind or whatever, you know, a half hour sometimes an hour before be like heck. I remember sleeping in a stand in Illinois all night long because I couldn't figure out. I couldn't figure out how to get into the stand at night or in the morning. And I literally took a sleeping bag and I went in at night in the afternoon and hunted it and then I stayed up there and because I didn't know how to get in there in in the morning, and did you kill kill About the next day with that devotion, I pushed him of the next guy and he the next property over and he killed him. That was part of my young and dumb They haired ears. But so we were literally I mean bumping deer, just moving to our you know, our spots and unless you have and I think that's one of the I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that are the hardest things to overcome for Midwestern hunters, getting too in from your stands without being seen. And I think it's one of the most broken you know, like rules of like you can't let that happen, and guys do every single time. But that was what we were doing out there. We were moving in in the dark and then we'd see dear you know, prequeerters a mile off whatever looking back at us when one daylight finally broke. I think that once we realized that and we started waiting. I mean, there's there's mornings I'm sitting in my truck until it's daylight, trucks off and just sitting there waiting, and and then I'll move up to my glass knob because there could be something in between. And as there is, he might bound over, Your might bound over and then blow the ones out that you know that I'd be seen once I get up to the glass job. It's just not it's not worth the risk you gotta, you know, taking care of all the variables and getting all that, all the little things squared away. That's not not one I'm willing to compromise on. It's how how much? So so back to the getting your glass and knobs? How much time will you spend in each spot before you say, okay, it's time to move on to the next one if you haven't found a buck you're interested in. So that's question number one, And then question number two is how many chances will you give a spot? Because I've debated this a lot myself, right, I've got a handful of different locations, and I I'll go the one night and check nothing. I'll go back the next morning. Nothing that I'm thinking, do I just cross it off or do I have to keep coming back? Um? How much time per and then how many different times will you go back and look? Well, this is if we're doing it in November, I think you're gonna you're gonna have already a handle on or you're if you don't, you're going to figure out real quick how how the ruts are doing in your area. And you're gonna know pretty quick when you get their few see does and they're up feeding. There's no buck with him. He's not there. I mean maybe it's maybe he's just tired, dead tired, and he's you know, laying over and cut stubble. You just can't haven't picked him out yet. But I don't give it too long. I mean, as soon as I have everything, you know, tree and sixty degree you know, sweep of what I can see. If I've covered everything, I'm moving to the next spot because I've got a bunch of spots to glass and I've got a lot of you know, you know, if I can if I can glass ten less more, that's better than five. It's better than I think I should. I say that it's better to quickly yet thoroughly glass ten spots. Then is really just pick apart five? Um? Now that's only I'm always saying that because it's during the run. Now, if this was October, be a completely different game. If it were in the mountains where you know you're picking apart, uh, you know, and in thicker terrain, it's when they're gonna be betted. It's completely different game. But right, you know, in November active. You know, sometimes I don't think those guys, those bucks don't don't lay down for days on end. All they're doing is you know, keep trying to keep his dough or get a new one or whatever. And I think it, you know, if you're in the right spot, you're gonna know it. Now how many times I keep coming back, uh boy? And definitely I've literally there's there's spots that I stopped in glass just because it's I can see so much from it. Uh And I've probably never made a stop from that spot. And they've probably got dozens of those spots. Um, but every year one of them, you know, like one new spot of like, oh, we got something here, and then you know, and then you have you moved to a different spot where you got a better angle on them, and you know, you just try to keep your eyes on them until until they either you know, bed or start feeding or whatever. Slowdown once once once say how you know? How would you say it make themselves vulnerable, vulnerable to a play of some sort. But I heard you once talking about how one of the biggest challenges of this part of your strategy is just trying to get elevated enough to be able to get hanggled down. And and you kind of jokingly said that you wanted to someday mount a ladder to the top of your truck topper you can get up there and look, have you ever did you ever actually do that? Or do you ever have any other good tricks for getting a better advantage? Uh? I have not mountled the ladder. Um. I've stood on the top of my truck a lot. Um. Anybody that buys used truck for me, Uh, hopefully hasn't looked up on top because there's probably some scratches on top of the cab the cab. But um, and sometimes that's all you need. I mean, but when I'm saying in these high points and stuff, I mean a lot of them erely you know, twenty difference, but just a gentle rolling hill if you and you might have be two miles away from where you think that you are going to be, but it would be two miles away to the high point. So it's it's not always close proximity either. So you've gotta have good glass. But I think that just getting creative with your with your advantage points. Um. I haven't went as far as to knock on a door, not for permission to hunt their property, but just maybe to climb their burn but I've thought about it. There are a couple of spots where that I know that you know without X, you can tell they don't know much property. They they only got five ten acres. There's there's really no no honey on there. There there's no good there's not gonna be any good honey on their property. But they've got a gorgeous burns thirty ft high in the back behind their house. And if I could get on top of that thing and I'd be able to see everything. So maybe one of these years I'm gonna stop that place and ask him. But that's that's the way my mind works on him. Out there, I'm looking for for anything, and I've climbed silos. Um. But I'm also someone that's not afraid to hide, you know, with my to work. Um. Um, you know that's uncomfortable up there, So it's yeah, that's it's everything down there because it's pretty flat. It all comes down to getting eyes on them. Now. One of the things that I a big paradigm shift, I guess for me when it came to glassing and finding game was realizing how much it helps to use a tripod with your binos. I never used to do that, and um, a friend finally just showed me what a difference it made, And now I'll never go out in this kind of hunt without that. Um. Is that something that helps you? Is there are there any other tips or piece of gear or anything else that's led you to become a more effective scouting with the glass kind of guy? No, that you nailed it right there. Good glass, good tripod, A tripod that can like for the type of honey that we're talking about. I like a full hight one so I don't have to I don't have to sit down on the ground like you know, there's no sense to find the high spot and then sitting down. Um, So I literally will run to these these high spots and then most of the time I'm not I'm not even taking time to sit, and I'm you know, I'm standing up and I'm you know, I've got a full you know, six ft tall tripod or whatever, you know, and it's I want something that I can the binals on. And that is uh. Yeah. People who haven't done it don't understand. Maybe they've kind of take for grantum overseeing like is like how I just over talking that because I'm trying to still a product or something. It is huge. The difference between handling the paramin aculars and looking through them sitting on a drypod is huge. You will find so many more animals, um, but get as good as glass as you can. Um, And uh, it's you know, the good good glass isn't isn't cheap, so it's it's investment. But that that is as far as we're finding animals. Yeah, ONEX on your phone is a must, or your similar product for land mapping software, good glass, good boots, good tires on your truck. Um, I don't know how many flats I've had over the years, and uh, yeah, there's it's it's all simple stuff that goes wrong. But usually but it's the it's the that's simple stuff that will screw up everything when it's you don't have it either. All right, So we've been here on the ground and wherever we're at. We're in Nebraska, we'll say, and we've been looking and maybe evening number two we finally spot well, actually, before we even say that, tell me this, do you And I think I already know the answer. But if you spot a shooter whatever that is for you on this given hunt, Um, are you gonna go and and change your position or try to make a move or will you see a shooter? But think to yourself, Man, I don't know how I can make a plan on him right now. So instead of keeping eyes on him, I'm going to move to this other area and check and see if there's a hontable buck there or is it Once you see a shooter buck like, you're staying on him until it's dark or until he makes a mistake. What's your thought process there? When I see something that is in the terms of you know, gets my blood going and it's something that my my brain says, this is when we be very very happy with all my focuses on him. Um, And things happen when you put yourself in the best available Uh what's what's we're looking for the best available proximity. So say he's out in a big, wide open flat. He's got you know, two or three doors with him, and there's another a couple of satellite bucks you're trying to move in, and they're all kind of spread out around him, and there's just no way in. Um, and you're half mile away on you know a little bit of a rise where you can just see over and there. Well, maybe you can't get all the way to him, but maybe you can circle down and get the wind where it's quartering. Uh. Maybe not right straight down wind, because that's I can't stand being right straight down one of them, because that's where they always expecting her to come from. But maybe get on that quartering side of them and then just get as close as you can and then see what happens. Um, Maybe they'll move, Maybe they'll move right to you. I've literally had him as walked up to me like I'm just dumb lucked Um, maybe one of those little bucks will come in there and challenge them, and he'll run and chase him off, and they'll run right past. Yet, um, so I get as close as I can without being detected. And sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes you get stark and you gotta sneak back out and start over the next day. But I yeah, if I find something I want to that I'm gonna be happy with, I put my arrow through or both through. It's my focus is on him, and um, even even if it's not a like slam dunk opportunity, like oh my god, he's bedded right there, and so I can just walk up that little crick bottom, pop out of the top, sneak over there and just slam dunk shot. I will still get his you know, put his meat variables in my favor, get as close as I can, or at least in the position the best position I think I can be in, and then just wait him out. So you're saying, even if even if he's moving, even if he's covering ground, you're not gonna stay in your spot and watching watch and watch to see where he beds or ends up. You'd rather just get after him. Once you spot him and if he's moving, if he's moving, I'm gonna try to keep my eyes on him. Um no, I'm sorry, I was thinking I was seen in my head like you're kind of just feed in an area, or if they're moving, he's moving, and if it's morning, I'm expecting him to to bed soon, I'm gonna I'm gonna keep my eyes on that. That's how I killed my bot this last year. I mean I found him ready at daylight and he moved and I had I had to take my eyes off me because he went over the you know, I just could not see him from from the side of the country mile you know, square section that was on. I had to drive all the way around the other side and find a new high spot and then we pick him up and thank god, he was still on his speed. But yeah, it's it's do whatever you can to keep your eyes on him too, to find find ready beds. Okay, so watch them until he stops for a long time or beds, and then you make your move. Um what then, like what is going? And I know this is very situation dependent. Every situation is a little different, but just kind of generically, what are the what's the checklist of things or the handful of things that are going through your mind as you you packed up your tripod and your buy nose or your spot and scope and say, okay, I'm going for it. What are the next steps? The next thing you're thinking in your mind as you figure out how you're gonna get closer, how are you going to make your stock? So on a white tail in this situation, if I if I've watched him, I'm he's betted student, he's betted, and he's got a doll with him. Most likely, um, not very often you're gonna find a mature about Uh. He's not one that I'm gonna want to kill in this area you're in, you know, in the Midwest in November alone. So he's gonna have a dough with them. They're gonna they're gonna bed somewhere where they think they have the advantage of the wind and their site. Um, in these areas where it's a little more open, the wind is your friend. Uh, not just from keeping your scent away, but for noise too. They don't really, they don't rely on their ears nearly as much as uh, you know, a more of a Midwest, a thicker traditional Midwest white tail. That's uh soys wind you're there and lots of dry brush, always just clanking together. But they'll bed somewhere where they can see. They rely on their eyes more and then obviously they use their nose just as much as any way till uh so. So I say I've got them bedded uh you on a fence line or something, whereas tumbled the Tumbleweedsy're all piled up, and those those things will get like ten ft high piles of tumbleweeds and they will bed RADI inside them sometimes um but wind break two. But so find out where they're betted move in and at that point I'm not I'm gonna I'm gonna ditch the dry the tripod in the glass. All I'm moving in with is a range finder, binoculars or a range finder, my bow in her gun, mostly most times as a bow hunt, though, and I'll probably take my railian handlers and I'll have that decoy am out of the front of my bow. I'll also take a little steak for that decoy too, so I can stick it out by itself in the ground, but it mounts to my bow and I can shoot the bow with it on there and it doesn't hinder it at all unless it's windy. Um, And I'll move in from a quartering angle. I don't want to be straight now wind. I don't want to be you know they're gonna they're gonna be looking down wind, so I want to be I want to be to the point where the wind is almost wrong. Um. Another thing you tend to get out in the planes is more consistent winds. You don't have is made. You know, you don't have his made trees or you know, all these things that black wind and makes swirling winds just aren't there. No, you still get ridges and bottoms and stuff that you know, like low low and high spots that create uh eddies and the air currents, and that can mess up your wind. But most of the time you get a much more consistent wind you would in other places. So you can risk that, you can put yourself in a risk your position than you could in other areas because you know that you know your winds only twenty degrees awesome offered him, which might only be like twenty yards if he stood up in twenty yards are right, he smells, but he's not going to and if he doesn't get up, you're gonna shoot him because you're gonna be inside his own by that point. And then I'll just move in as quickly as I can before they get up, because as you know, as I said, they fight so much more down there. If you've got a hot dog, which if you find him a tour buck, he's probably gonna you know, he's almost always got a hot dog, because he's he's the man, right, He's the one that's out there kicking all the ard years asked, and he's the one that's like, all right, he's that still is mine. But he's always gonna have challengers around, and they're gonna come up and they're gonna constantly be bugging him. So it's not uncommon for him to be getting up every minutes and having to run off a little buck, which is a great time for for you. Or two, if you're hopefully already in position within your you know, effective lethal range with your weapon. Two, show him your decoy and that usually doesn't take much and just flashing that deep, you know, holding your bow up. He sees it and his he'll usually look at you, look at the r buck, pin his ears back and just come over like almost like he's trying to make you know, loud racket with his with his front paws as he slams him in the dirt, you know, just clanking his way over to you. Um, if there's no other bucks to keep keep getting them up, you can. I've stayed out you yards and tickle the anlers, you know, railon anilers together to kind of like pique his interest. And then as soon as you know, he picks his head up, you know, he sees the decoy, and you know again they come in. Um. It doesn't always work that way, but with the older monitor box, yeah, if they see that decoy, they're coming in. And yeah, and I'll be honest with you, in a perfect world, I don't care if he sees that decoy. I just want to get him killed, right, So the decoy is kind of my out if I can, if I can, if he beds the spot where I can sneak up and shoot them without ever seeing me or me ever making a noise, that's that's the main goal. But that hardly ever happens. Um without without varying how would you say, elevation changes in the terrain, It's hard to do a traditional spot and stock where you literally can get you know, a height advantage where you can shoot them in their beds most time in these in these plain states, you need them to stand up and make the next move, I should say the last move, um for it to happen. And that's that's the usually way it goes down. Can you can you describe a little bit for people that aren't familiar, um, this heads up decoy that you're using, and how exactly that works? And then and then once you describe on the basics, you know, I'm curious about a little more detail of how you're using it, Like if you have to cover a hundred yards or maybe it's a fifty yard stretch of open ground to the next pat to cover, you could hunker down and and this the deer going to see you. Will you consider sprinting across that with the decoy in front of you? Um? Or or is it much more conservative uses? I'm guessing give me the give me the basis of what it is, and then describe some situations where you will use it and how Yeah, what's It's not a full deer silhouette. It is just a basically like a you know, like like the old school neck mounts, Like everybody gets shoulder mount now of a deer on the wall, but you remember, like seeing months before it was just like a neck mount. Telling like that was kind of weird that half the mounts gone. That's about all it is. So it's like it's not real tall, it's not real big. I mean usually I'm in a kneeling, crouched position. When when when I'm you know, ready for the deer to be when I should say when I'm ready to the deer to see me, you know, so they technically they can see part of my legs, my shoulders, but they just seem to look right through me. Um. I wouldn't go as ours to say i'd feel safe, you know, just stand up covering ground. I have used it, uh As I was sneaking up on a buck face in the opposite way, and as soon as he'd like start moving his head and I just I just hunger down, told it in front of me, and he would just kind of like look over and look away. But he never did catch me moving. Um. But I was also being very careful. I wasn't uh you know, And that was the last that was moving him for a second shot after a bad first shot, So that was there situation. But I wouldn't say I routinely trusted to cover my my motion. It's not real big but that. But the heads up decoy is pretty pretty awesome. It's got a and it's not just white to lay off for him for all different animals. Um, the meal every one works great too. Um. The turkey one works amazing. But excuse me. It has a carbon rod in the bottom of it that slides into a sleeve that amounts right in front of your stabilizer pole. And it doesn't weigh hardly anything. Um. The antlers are foam and they can you can take them off and they slybrate inside the body of the decoy, which is like a thin clock material. Um, it doesn't wait. You can toss right in your backpack. You can hold it, you know, if you're hunt with a buddy, he can literally just hold him with his hand. Um. And then so there's a ground steak to the It's it's pretty simple. It's pretty ingenious. Um. You know you're basically shooting. Uh, it's just to the side of your bow. The only downside to it is the wind if it's if it's windy. Uh, I would. That's when I keep that little ground steak, which I think they you know, they made it for tricky hunting, so you get pick that thing out in front of you with the turkey silhouette there. But I use it for white tails and Meally's too, because it's when it's windy. It's just if it's really windy. You know, you don't want that. It's like having a sail on your bow. So you've got this, You've got a mount into your boat and you can use it in the scenario like you describe where you'll flash it once and then the deal will come in. Um Uh, will you I think maybe you mentioned this or maybe I heard you say it before, but will you also use it as you know, just like someone might use a big decoy when sitting in a tree stand. You'll have it and you'll see a deer way off from the distance, and then you'll start rattling or calling, and then once he looks in your direction, then you flash it and then he sees the second part of the equation that makes him think, Okay, yeah, there's definitely something going on there. Um and do you keep it up the whole way until they come in? Or will you flash it and put it down and then prepare for the shot. Um, it sounds like you can shoot with it mount into your boat, right, Oh absolutely, yep. You know it's uh most of the time is attached to the boat or in a ground stake. I'm not I'm not really going back and forth with that up and down. I will. I think just that having a little bit of move movement. Um. You know, it's it's weird. You think that they would see the bow attatched to it, but they just look right through you and the bow and you can just you know, I've had I've rattled and Bucks said he had no interest in killing m hm. And they're ys from me, staring at the decoy. There's I'm like kneeling in grass. It's like, you know, a foottop foot high. They came in from behind me, so I'm completely you know, there's nothing I don't even hide behind. And he's looked at that thing, and I just rocked the bow back and forth in the decoy and he just you could just see the hair pop up on there on the back of his neck and he just comes a little closer. It's like, but this thing is only you know, three ft tall, and the decoy and here I am, you know, hunter, an a pound guy with a backpack and the bows and he they can't even They just for bucks on the rut. I mean they just look right through you. Yeah. And that's and the and and and that's why I don't hunt try stands anymore. That's gonna be pretty intense. I I'm tempted to jump right to how you handle the next moment, but I want to rewind just a little bit because I want to dive a little bit further into the stock um. Is there anything else that you do or that you're thinking about two uh, to have a more successful stock into that range? Any tips for being quiet or or things other than we talked about the wind um, But are there any other little things that you do to help close the distance or to get that final ten yards closer for the shot, or anything else is on your mind when it comes to pulling that part off without the decoy involved. There's probably things that I'm just taking for granted that everybody knows. But it's you know, one thing about the planes, they're they're a little cactus and birds everywhere. Make sure you have some good um you know, pants with protective knee protective knee kneepads are not a bad idea. Um. The you're gonna get, you're gonna get just filthy crawling and through this, you know. I mean, if you've got our handheld the release or wrist or wrist release, I would suggest tucking that thing inside your sleeves, having make sure you have sleeves that you can typen up around your wrists, because like crawling across the dry, dusty or or muddy wet field you are, I mean, the last thing you want is to get up there and you finally you got within range. He stands up and you go to you know, clip your release on your loop, and it's just cape full of dust and rocks and it won't you won't function, Um the terrain. It's funny. I bet I put my equipment for there is a much abuse hunting that way as I do hunt in the mountains. Um, it's just crawling around and that stuff is can ters. Are you up? But um yeah, I think that you really would make this make or break the stock um copal shoes that you know I stopped using maybe the traditional hunting boots a long time ago. Um, back when I was just hunting the Midwest. You know, I lived in a parallel across uh rubber boots all year long, and I still love them. I still have them, but I don't get to use them as much anymore. You know, I'm I'm using you know, whether I'm into mountains or on the plains, I'm usually using a almost like a light hiker or a light mountaineering boot nowadays. And that's kind of my go to. You know, it's nimble, it's it's yeah, I can, I can move through just about anything without having no worry about thorns or you know, rocks, brush whatever, um. And yet the same time it's protecting my ankles and you know, from rolling over in the mountains. But all so you don't need the you don't hunt the scenes bid every day, so you don't need that that rubber boot for send protection like like you wouldn't stand hunting. But so yeah, there's probably it's it's mostly just common sense on the stock. Then, you know, mister, I don't see you here, your smell you there you go. Okay, let's let's touch a little bit more on one other thing you mentioned there, which was maybe tickling the times together or calling. Um, from everything I've heard and seen and some things you've mentioned too, it sounds like ratley and calling is particularly effective in your mind in some of these places. Would you agree with that? And then okay? Then secondly, talk to me a little bit more about how specifically you are using those two tools. Are you I'm interested in your call sequence or your rattling sequence, or when's the right time to do it, when's not the right time to do it? Um, walk me through the Tony treat one on one on rattling and calling. Well, in a perfect world, they don't have to, you know, a perfect world. My morning's gonna start with me at at a high point glassing and I'm gonna see him bed and then I'm just gonna walk up to him and shoot him. Uh that's the perfect world. How it usually happens is maybe I do find him, but now he's better in a spot where uh, you know, I can maybe sneak in get close. But now he's gotta doe with them. They could stand up and feed or way, maybe I want him to. I want to draw his attention over here. In that case, I'm going to use him more of just kind of a curiosity thing. And I'm gonna make a light of as sound as I can. I don't even want him to really know for sure what he hurt. I want him to think, you know, what did I just hear? What? What is that? A? You know? Isn't that two bucks? Burn? Um? That's probably the more often the way I end up using him. Um. But let's say I don't find anything, you know, for the first hour or two glass and and it's it gets to be nine o'clock in the morning, and now at this point everything's betted up. Uh. That's when I will make my and and this only only really I shouldn't say don't like works in certain areas. I've only had luck with it in certain areas. Um. And it's this is when I'll go to the you know, the spots that might have a little bit thickier, thicker brushire areas where I can I can get close to where they're betting out in these these open grassier areas or brushy brushing areas without them seeing me, and set up set up a decoy out in front of me a little ways. Maybe I'll have another one right by my side. And that's when I mean I carry it. My set of rain amblers are like you know, it's a one sixty class buck. It's these are big solid amblers that I found a long time ago, and they make great sound. I mean I used to do a lot of shut on and I've got a lot of sheds. It takes the right set of antlers to make the right sound. Oh my god, I absolutely I always wonderful. Yeah, I cannot stand all those fake plastic ones out there. I think I actually heard Stephen talking about Ronella on one of his podcasts, about one of those little pack racks or whatever you like, and I was just shaking my head and like, oh my god, what are you doing. I just have the bulk of carrying a big set antlers. That's the thing that always to tears me. Well do you like the bulk of carrying the big antlers out? Might you might have to carry him in? The sound they make is so different. And I mean I could go out in my house welcover and I've got like ten match sets and there's two of them over there that are magical, and I mean they just have a sound to them and I am not bashl with them. I've just about broke my phones before. I'm too proud to cut off the brow points. But I should cut off the brow points. But it's hard to cut the brow points off a nice set of sheds. But um, but I just once I get set up in a spot like that, I I just let it rip. I mean I don't, I don't do it. There's nothing general, there's nothing particularly ab out it, and I want to make as much noise. I want them to think that all hell is breaking loose. There's a hot dough or two, and there's two bucks over here trying to kill each other for and man, I it's it's worked very very well. Um. And even when it doesn't work well to the point where you're you know, you find a buck that you want to you know, like, holy crap, here comes on hunteer, you're still having fun because little bucks are running over top of you, and sometimes they're running the absolite way because they're scared. But um, it's yeah, good, good things happen when you're allowed out there. But but that's a totally different situation than you know, sneaking up as close as you can to them and then being quiet. And that's that's pretty much the only ways I use them, and you know it's it's either a late morning set up early or late afternoon and early evening set up where I don't have a play, I don't know one's at and it's just almost like a cool and call set up, um, where I'm allowed and aggressive, or it's a last minute Uh you know, I've got a book located, I'm in tight and I'm tickling them to get him up. I gotta believe that, Um, I gotta believe that the shot experience, the whole process is different for those two scenarios. There's gotta be the there's the situation where you sneak up on one and maybe you don't need to use a call at all. You just slip right in and then you get a shot with that dear being unaware of your presence at all, versus the shot where you rattle one in, it sees your decoy and it comes in righty to kick your ass. Um, Can you walk me through how you handle the shot, those moments of truth, the shot process itself, and anything unique to either one of those scenarios. I just black out and wake up. There's dead animals laid around when I was younger, actually that is what happened. But um, I think it's easier for me now with the deco way when because they've made the last move and you know, they've penn their ears back or whatever, and they're coming and I'm being forced into a situation, uh, you know, he's coming, he's coming, he's you know, he's okay. So now he's at like point blank range because a lot of times they'll just keep walking to you. I mean, eventually they're gonna get to a point when their ten yards or ten feet and they're gonna like there's some moment hopefully they're going to realize you're not a buck. So you've got to shoot him before that. You're you're in this. You know, the m or media, how was you call it? Ethics? Ethics, police might not like this, but you are forced with a lot of frontal and quartering two shots. Um because of that with the decoy, because they're coming to kick your ass. They're not trying to move around you, They're coming right to you. Whereas with you know, if I'm finding a better and I'm sneaking up there and he's just laying there, I'm not being forced to make the shot. He's not moving in I don't have you know, the clock's not ticking and that way it's Then then I have questions, Should I wait? Just should away from the stand? Do I have a window to his vitals? Um? Is this? You know? What is the best situation? And then I still have questions? Um. The young younger me was just as soon as I could see his chest, I'm in a zip and arrow. Threat. Older me gets asked more questions of myself now and gets gets me in troublesometimes. Um. I had both situations this year, Uh, my first book in Colorado this year. I was able to sneak up to him and he never knew I was there. Um, And I decided to wait. That could have went horribly wrong. Um, because he eventually he did stand up and just you know, spin around like a dog in his bed three times, and before he lay back down, I shot him. But fifteen minutes later, the wind took a dramatic hundred e degree change because of front came in a big storm and the thermals were going straight down the hill hill at that point. If he had waited until that happened, he would have winned me. So I got really lucky there, whereas maybe I should have taken the shot earlier. I mean I could see his chest, but he was you know, obviously you have more of a room for you know, room for errors when they stand up. And I just waited for that and it worked out. And then in Kansas, you know that buck maybe he was this year, he was bettered with a dough and I could just see the tips of his antlers. I knew he was there, but I had no shot, and I was about fifty yards from him. I tickled the antlers together. Um. And actually I don't even know if it was that necessarily, because another buck came into, Um, a little little buck was coming in, and they got up to kind of think more more or less deal with him than the noise I was making. But the second he saw that that decoy, he just pinned his ears back and started walking to me. And then at that point it's like, well, I've got an arrow on the string. This is what I wanted. He's coming and he's making them, he's making decision for me. I'm going to be shooting here soon, so I think it's it's easier for me when when they make the last move. Either way, anything you've learned about taking that quartering two or frontal shot. Um as far as making that as as lethal as possible, do you have a range, like, hey, they gotta be within this range for me to take that shot. Or where exactly are you placing it? Um? Any any details on on pulling that kind of thing off. Well, Number one, I shoot a heavy arrow. That's uh, you know, it's think it's around five five or fifteen grains seventy pounds. You know, I've got a whoy turbo that's spitting them out there pretty fast, even for a heavy bow, So it's got a lot of thump to it. If you're shooting a three fifty grain arrow and pounds have drawed, you know, maybe an older bow that isn't so fast, this might not be the right play for you. UM. I mean, if I hit the scapula, I'm probably going through it. If I hit the where the where the leg bone thickens out below the scapula, I don't think anyone's getting through that. UM. I have hit that before, you know, it's been over a dozen years ago. But uh, that that's a thick bone down there. However, the ribs in front of the shoulder are not much different than the ribs behind them the shoulder. Um. With that being said, if you can a quartering too with you know, it's just like when they're walking. You know, if you if you with a corter in a way, when that leg goes forward, you want to slip the girl in front behind it. Well, when they're walking to you, when the leg goes back, you want to slip that girl in front of it. Um. I've had great luck. I mean I've literally had full uh pastors when I you know, on a quarter and two shots that went in front of the front shoulder and exited out back through the rear um and zipped across the wheat field. I mean lots of them, uh with white tails. You know, I use a cut on contact brought at an iron. Will you know it's a fixed head. I don't use mechanicals. And and that's one of the reasons I don't want, you know, I've I've heard horror stories of mechanicals on you know, a hard quartering shot. You know, catch a rib and and uh plants along you know, your skim along the outside. And it's the last thing I want. So you know, it's it's not like an elk. With an elk, you've got to be really careful. Those ribs are way thicker, you know, and you've got to aim for that hole in the thoracic area, you know. But the base of their throat. The white tail basically I think of, you know, just putting the arrow to the center h point of their chest from whatever angle I'm at, and it's never never failed me. But tell me, tell tell me this. I feel like this would be a good way to wrap this up because we're I've been hanging ivan holding here for a long time, and I'm having fun with this one. So I'm selfishly getting as much as I can, um, because I love hunting these kinds of places, So I really want to I want to add this to my repertoire um. But is there is there any one example from all your years of this style of white tail hunting that comes to mind to you is like the perfect, the perfect encapsulation of this whole way of hunting. Um. Is there a story like that, a single hunt that just kind of wraps a bow on this whole thing, that you could walk us through how you did this and that that illustrates this whole thing. Nicely. Uh you want one that went uh like almost perfect, but took a like actually I see that, Like I can tell you about this last year, I guess, But in the end I got my dear. But it was I had two different arrows hit a offense. Um it sounds like how of a story? Oh my god? Yeah, it was so this book I got just this last year. Um, I was down there for probably a week and I didn't Um, I just was not seeing what I was Uh, you know we used to see and uh in Kansas, you you get the opportunity to draw, you know, in either either species tag so and I did not draw this year. I only had the wait till only so kind of you know, cuts you right there and and half of what bucks you looking for? And then I just I mean I had seen bucks probably as high as one sixty, but I just wasn't. I wasn't willing to cut my tang on one nowadays, you know, you know, basically I had I had a guy tell me a long time ago. Ah, if you don't when you first see that buck, if it's not a no brainer, if it's not a holy crap, I gotta that's that's the one if that, if that feeling isn't there, you gotta pass. If you have to, if there's a second of doubt in your head, if you have to tell, if you have to argue with or negotiate with yourself, whether or not it's a shooter, it's not. Yeah, And I learned the hard way is right, and I don't you know, it's so nowadays I'm pretty pretty picky. And I just wasn't seeing when I was, like, you know, I wanted to see and the pheasant hunting was good, so I was killing some pheasants. Um, but you know, I just wasn't seeing any bucks. And then I h I wanted to see. It was like the third day of pheasants season. Maybe um, I just used that as a time refens don't really the actual date. But I was coming back from this class and it was already to the point where now I wasn't even I was. I was leaving my last classing point and I was heading back to the ranch to get a nice rest, and a buck across the road in front of me, and it was the first really old mature buy I had seen last year, and you know, I stopped the truck and jumped out with the binoculars and he, you know, was a couple hundred yards outside road with some dos and I got to watch him a little bit. Um. The next morning, I was on a different high spot, you know, maybe about a mile from there, where I could cover that whole area and for a lot of it. And just luckily he was the very first year I saw, and he had a dope. He had a couple of hour bucks that were shadowing him and he kept running them off. He had broken off the brow one of his brow points already, which they're both really big brow points, they're like six seven inches um. So he'd done that overnight, and I just waited him out. He he probably took man it. It took longer than thirty or nine o'clock before he finally betted. But in that time, you know, he'd went, you know, almost in the middle of the section, so you know, a half mile from each county road and over the edge where I couldn't see him. That was the one I was telling you earlier. I had to drive all the way around find lar high point over there, and luckily I picked him up again before he laid down. And I mean the whole the whole section. I have permission to hunt on um from three different landowners. UM. Certain you have to worry about the fences as far as uh, you know, property lines go. I just had to worry about the fences. The fact that he was bed in a long one. Um, it was super easy. I mean there was no stock. I just grabbed my boat and the decoy and walked because he was on the other side of a littleknoll. And once I got I wasn't even with it going to be within sight of him until I was like forty or fifty yards, So I basically just got to where I could see the sailor tips knelt down in the cut Milo. Um. You know there's a lot of times in those areas they will the mile will be like a terraced off on the hills where they have like little flat spot and then it drops down the flat spot and it drops down. I think it just makes it easier for them to harvest it and maybe helps with erosion. But it makes for great little spots to kneel behind um and cover you maybe your lower half when you're showing the decoy. And there was a little buck that kept coming up and I tried tick on the ailers to him to get him a stand up, and I could see his years twitch. He'd turned his head a little bit, but he wouldn't stand up. And so I think in the end it was thenar buck that got him and his dope on his feet. And she saw me and walked her over to me. And she saw me first. I mean she was probably twenty yards from me. But so when he saw me the decoy, now he sees not only has his dough walked away from him a little bit while he was preoccupied with this little buck. There's not a little buck over there in the cut milo which is me and has has dough was walking over there towards it. She's just curious what I am, because she's they're obviously the does are a little more but they don't have testosterone wrong and at that time of the year, so they're a little more curious as to what you are and white til doose are. Actually, I usially don't like him to get that close because a lot of times they will blow out and script the whole thing. But she didn't. He saw me and just pinned his years back in just third, you know, doing that moose walk where this kind of tipped their head left and right back, and he's just coming. And it's to the point where I I drew my bow bag and I'm thinking he's gonna stop. He's at thirties, okay that I know that fence post is thirty, and he just keeps coming, like I gotta let down. And now I gotta shift a little bit because if you know, the stocks are telling off, I can't really swing my my bow through. I've kind of gotta go up and around. And the door was looking at me like, I don't this this buck doesn't look right. But the but the I swear to cathless older bucks, once they get in their head that they're gonna scare you off and run you off, they just they get the googly eye thing and they roll their eyes back, their ears are pin back, and they're just they're coming, and you well, there's a Bucks that I was kind of just messed around with in the past, like I had no intention of shooting up and yell at them to get him to leave. Um, but this guy's coming and he's coming, and he finally gets to the point where you know he's gotta he's either got to jump the fence to me or now he's gonna be going further away, and and he just stops and he's just standing there is that moving his head. I'm like, all right, I'm just gonna shoot it right through the the fence. I mean it's barbedware fence. There's four strands of it. I mean, there's only two of them that are in play. And it's really I mean, this is this is the closest shot I've had in a long time. What are the odds of it hitting it? And it hits it and the arrow instantly goes down and back and oh no, and you could you could see by the you know the way you could hear it too. The it wasn't the standard like you know, thumb sound. It was more of a a smack because you know that the arrow was also coming at him kind of sideways. You know, it didn't it wasn't good And aside throwing our arroline, you know, he had instantly made a jump. So now he's up five yards further, which is you know, no change in pin and one of the odds of it hitting the fence again apparently pretty good because it hit again and it went britween to speak, but he got getting this time, he only walks a little further. Um and by this time, you know, and and I'll admit, I'm I'm for azzing, like I'm like, I cannot believe. What are the odds this happening. I've put all this work in this now and and now it's I'm shooting like a you know, a jackass. I you know, and you feel bad, right because you know it's supposed to be quick, you know, clean kill and I so so long story short, I am out of arrows very quickly here and I've got two arrows in them, and you know, this is one of those days that ends well. But um, there was moments in it where I like this. You know, there's a moment where I'm like, I need more arrows. I absolutely this. I did everything right up until when I didn't. And now you did hit him. It hit the barrow and then him. Okay, for some reason I thought it ricochet off and you missed both. But okay, so you hit him. He's still got him. First yarrow hit him, and it was a legal shot, like it's low it's maybe diaphraghim, maybe liver, but maybe on the other side of the diaphraghim. I would later find out what it was it was behind it, um, but he's just so hopped up on kicking your boot. He doesn't even care that he just got hit. Did not care. Second arrow hit the hit the wire when when low between his legs, he didn't even acknowledge it. Um. He moved out a little further. I want to say the third arrow connected, um, but he was walking away at that point and it wasn't you know, it was basically replay the first shot. Um. And then he laid down and I tried to speak in and get another one in him, and I couldn't get any closer than that fence because climbing the fence he would have picked me off and him. You know, I know it was and he's still at that point, I didn't think any clue what I was. I mean, he's he can still see him, so um, and I was last two shots just caught. You know, he's laying down in brush and I tried to squeeze him through there and he just didn't. It didn't connect. And eventually I'm sitting there along that fence line. Now he's moved opia. We basically moved up fifty yards forward because those laid back down. He's laid back down. He's not doing good. I'm like just expecting from him, you know, his head will go down and I'm thinking he's going to die. And the other buck comes back, literally scoops up that dough hops the fence with her and they take off, and that buck watches him, and I'm just like, they can just stay there, buddy, it's time, you know, just stay there. He got up and he walked over that fence and m hmm. I didn't think he was gonna be able to do it, and he kind of like high sighted himself for a bit, you know, he tried to jump it and he then he slipped over and he made it and he started walking after him, and I, yeah, I know. So I ran back the truck as fast as I could. I got more, you know, load of the boat with arrows, drove her up, and now I gotta drive back around the other side of the block again where I have a view of that side where I originally spot him in the morning. Got over there. They're all three laying down the field and um, you know, basically never left that field. Um, but it involved me waiting waiting. Uh, probably not as long as I should have, because if I had just never moved in on him to get another air on him, he would have just died right there and for a couple of hours. But I tried to slide in and ended sooner and I actually had the decoy on the boat. That was one of those times when I'm crossing that little opening area just hoping if he does turn over here and see because there's nothing really in between us, um that he will see decoy. And I was able to getting our arrow on him again, but the wind caught that decoy and it wasn't a good shot, and it was I've had This conversation was a one of the worst and best days I've had in a long time, because you know, in the end, I got the buck I wanted, but there was there were tears from it, and uh, you know, I felt like ship because I you know, what started off as a simple mistake and a barbed wire moved on to me rushing things, not uh not taking my time and just letting him rest and stiffing up and die pushing it, um, you know, not thinking you know ahead of time about what the wind's gonna do. With with this decoy on there, just you know, I didn't a time came when my good judgment kind and how I should move along with it kind of went out the window and I was I just had one thing in mind, and I was getting the dead as soon as possible, and in the end it worked out. But um, yeah, it's that that might not be the type of story you were thinking about to inter wrap it up with, but that was the the one that's most pressing in my mind because of may maybe for not the reasons of grand or but reasons of it taught me a lesson. So yeah, no, I think that's that's an important I think that kind of story makes me think of a few things. Number one, it it reminds us all that you can do everything right and still every once in a while those nightmare scenarios will happen, um, because we are chasing a wild animal and just stuff happens, um, So you better be prepared for it as best as possible. And you know, like like you did, even though it didn't turn out as didn't turn out the way you wanted to you, you know, you tried to end it as quickly as possible. You tried to do the most ethical possible next thing. Um. And then it also just for me when you hear those kinds of stories, you just can't help but have this admiration for an animal that can just keep on living. And it's just unbelievable that the toughness and the will to live that these critters have. I mean, they are survival machines. Um, that's for sure. Oh, I uh, I don't know, man, I'm fired up. I am just after hearing this. I just I'm ready to get out there is what I'm ready to do. This is uh, this is fun stuff. Yeah, Tag season is upon us. I'm before we started podcast, I was going through my my Utah app that's going in this afternoon, and one by one the state's applications will all be in and then for you know, it will be scouting time and then right back into it all the never ending cycle continues, hopefully. Yes. Is there is there any place that if folks, if folks listen to this and we're really interested in treat and wanted to either see some of your writing or fall along with your hunts or anything, is there anywhere that you would tell people to go for them to connect with you or to to learn more. My Instagram is probably the best place to follow along. And that's just Tony treats. I guess there's an underscore between the names on Instagram. Um, I don't really. I mean I write for Rod Slide uh and I'm on their staff, but I don't. I'm not exclusive. So my articles pop up in do magazines. Cool, awesome, Well, Tony, I I really enjoyed this one. This is something that's kind of near and dear to my heart, these kinds of areas. So I am I'm making a plan to try to add this kind of hunting to to my repertoire. And it was awesome to be able to pick your brain about it. So thanks for taking so much time to do that. Well, thank you, Mark. It's that pleasure being at And get some water man, you're struggle. I got fraud right here to last second. It happens. I've had to happen a time or two myself. So yeah, it's getting over a cold, so it's been tough. That's no fun. Well, thank you Tony again, and let's stay in touch. Sounds good. Thanks and that's a rap, my friends. Thank you for tuning in. Thanks for being a part of one hell of a great community. Um, the wire Dunk listeners, all of you guys out there that are avid hunters and new hunters and mentors and conservationists and just lovers of wildlife and wild places and the folks that walk the walk just don't talk to talk. Um nam, I think you guys are awesome. I'm proud to be chatting with you weekly and proud to call you guys my friends, colleagues, community, and UM, I think I'm gonna stop talking now and just let you get outside. Hopefully you're shed hunting, picking up trash, scouting, having a good time. Hopefully that's some sunshine here soon. So until next time, thank you, and stay wired to Hunt.