00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the wire to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this episode number three and seven, and today on the show, I'm joined by New York bow hunter Jesse Coots to discuss the importance of being what he calls a freestyle hunter when targeting big old bucks. Okay, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X, and I gotta apologize to you guys here in advance for my voice. I am dealing with a bit of a cold here. But I did have a great guest on it that I chatted with before I got my cold, so the rest of the interview is gonna sound better. My guest today is Jesse Boots, and you might remember him from episode number two hundred. This was years ago now, in which we had a panel of some of the very best d I Y deer hunters on the podcast answer a series of frequently asked questions and Jesse was one of those guests. And after speaking with him, I realized that there was just a lot more we needed to cover. I wanted to dive deep into what he was really focused on. He is just a very, very successful d I y bow hunter, and he's done it in a lot of different places. He's done in the East Coast, He's done in the Midwest, out on the plains, in the Rocky Mountain West, all over the place. So today I wanted to dive deep into how he targets big Old Bucks and how those tactics changed from one area to the next. It's a really interesting conversation. He's got a lot to share. But before we get into that, I do want to just take a second to kind of, I guess properly set expectations here or kind of lay just a foundational thing to just keep in mind throughout this conversation, because in this chat, you're gonna hear that Jesse is really very focused on chasing big Bucks. That's what Jesse's personal goals revolve around, and many other hunters too. But I do just want to make it clear that it doesn't have to be that way for everyone. Right, we have a lot of different listeners out there, and I know that some of you are out there wanting to kill a big buck. Some of you want to kill an old buck. Some of you want to kill any buck, and others are just trying to get your first dear at all, any dear. And I want to say at the outset that you know, every one of those goals is good and admirable and and and they're each awesome. We need to hunt for our own reasons and with our own goals and expectations. So don't let me or Dan or Jesse or anyone else out there you've ever heard in the podcast or that you encounter entailor life. Don't let any of those folks make you feel like you need to do something like what they're doing. We each need to hunt our own hunt. You know, this has been particularly on my mind the last couple of days because on my first hunt here in Michigan, I was after that four and a half year old buck I'm calling trans I was telling you guys about its last week, I wrote radio. I saw him on October one, then on the second I went in for the kill. Now I didn't end up seeing him that night, but I did see another really really nice buck. It's this deer I've seen a bunch this summer and early fall. I've been calling him the Big nine, and he was just a gorgeous deer. He's right in that D thirty class type size and with I don't know minutes left a daylight. He shows up on that very first hunt for me in Michigan and he's standing there at ten yards broadside for like fifteen minutes, and I haven't dead to rights. I could take a shot easily at any point, and I have to make this decision. What do I do? This would probably be I'm pretty sure it would be the second biggest buck I would have ever killed in Michigan from an aisler standpoint, if I were to take him. But after looking at pictures of him and video of him in the preseason and then seeing him in person, it was just clear to me he was not a four and a half yeld deer. He was a three and a half year old, but a four and a half year old bucker older was my goal for this season on this specific property. I know there's a chance to kill mature deer here. I know there's a chance for these deer to make it another year, possibly at least, So that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to kill four and a half year old and and really wanted that dear to be trained. The deer I have some history with, so that being the case, I decided to know what this dear I'm watching right here. He is an awesome deer. Here's a beautiful deer, and I just like to watch him tonight and the rest of the year, hopefully and maybe he'll make it, maybe not, but I want to keep hunting. And that was that was pretty awesome. It was such a cool encounter and experience to just get to sit there and watch this great deer up close and not feel at all pressure like I have to shoot this deer because it's a big deer and it would be, you know, people really excited about it. I didn't feel that pressure. I just enjoyed the hunt for what it was and I end void my decision and I'm one glad I did that. But it was interesting. I shared this on social media after the hunt, and I was surprised by how many people attacked it, people saying I was jaded or a trophy hunting asshole, or crazy or stupid or whatever it was. And I was like, man, I'm the one hunting here. If it's a decision that makes me happy, Why the hell should you care? Why should you be critiquing me for what I do? And and I'm sure everybody else out there has experienced something like this in your own personal lives. Maybe it's because you passed on a deer. Maybe it's because you shot a deer that somebody thought you shouldn't have. And I'm just here to tell you that that's b s. We just we just don't need to take it. You know. In my case, yeah, I might not end up killing the old buck that I'm after. I might have blown my only chance at a really good Michigan buck, But that's okay with me. I personally want something different out of my season this year. That's a personal decision. I'm a percent happy with it. At my point in my hunting journey, I don't need to shoot the first year I see, or the first buck or the first nice buck. I want to push myself. I want to extend my season. I want to see what might happen along the way, what I might learn. Um And we all have that same right in whichever way you want to go with it. We each get to choose what kind of season we want, what kind of goals, what kind of experience. What deer will pull the trigger on or what dear will pass, that's up to you, that's up to me. So just remember that if it makes you happy, as long as it's legal, do it. Don't let anyone's Monday morning quarterbacking impact how you feel about your decisions or the decisions you make. And then remember to give everyone the same grace too. That's my I don't know my Thursday morning lecture for you, it's on my mind. I just want to make sure everyone feels comfortable hunting their own hunt. With that all said, as we get into our conversation to tay with Jesse, you are going to hear about his aggressive personal goals to try and kill Big Bucks. And even if that doesn't match with your mindset or your goals, think about the process he outlines and how that might be applicable to your own goals. Because the cool thing is that something that will work for big old Bucks, it will also work for younger Bucks. And if it works for younger Bucks, it will also work for does very often. If it works on you know, public land, it's also gonna work on private land. So you can find ways to make this stuff applicable. To your own situation. So I think we can all learn something from this one. And Jesse is a no nonsense kind of guy. He he just calls it like he sees it, So be prepared for that and be prepared to learn some interesting new ideas. All right, we are here with a repeat guest, Mr Jesse Coots. Welcome back to the show. Jesse, thanks for having to be here. Hey, I'm really excited to have you. Um. You know, when you were on last time, it was our two episode and we did this big roundtable with with a group of different people, and that was the first time we got to chat. Our mutual friend Andy had had kind of brought me u or brought you to my attention, introduced us. So after that chat, I just got to thinking that you had such an interesting perspective, like a very no bullshit perspective that I appreciated. Um, And so ever since i've wanted, I've kind of had on my back burn. I gotta get Jesse back on. I gotta get Jesse back on because it just seemed like so much more we could cover. Well, finally we're doing it. So I appreciate you making the time in in the midst of hunting season to to do this. Cool dude, Well, thanks for the kind of word you Uh, I appreciate it. You kind of staffed your decks with that last uh, that last group Joe and Andy. Um, I mean I think those guys could they could literally mumble out just thought processes and you would do well if you could just keep having people like that on the show. Yeah, they said things that I've tried to uh point out to people, and they started off the top of their head, and it's like, yeah, these guys get it. So yeah, I'm honored to be a to any conversation with those caliber guys. They really got it. Well, you're the you're the star attraction now today and I'm confident we're gonna get in some really interesting stuff too. And and as we're kind of talking about, you know, you mentioned Andy and Joe and how they've really got it figured out. Um, you obviously come to things with your own perspective too. And one of the things that I've taken from doing this podcast for oh, I don't know five plus years now and talking to hundreds of different, really really good deer hunters across the country is that everyone's got a different way this skin the cat. Like there's no one way to be a good deer hunter. There's many, many different ways, and oftentimes they're wildly I'm almost opposite, Like one guy might be really good doing X, and then one guy might be really good doing why, which is like completely against what X was, but still they managed to get it done. But what I think is interesting about you based off of that conversation we had, and then also, um, some stuff I read about you a while back. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you describe yourself as a free style hunter, so you're not devoted to like, you don't have a way you like to do kind of a little bit of everything. Is that? Is that still true? And if so, why why do you like that diverse approach? Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Uh, you're a pretty adverbant guy. Uh. In general to pick up on how, um, so many different guys have so many different techniques and and and reasons for it. And when you had mentioned that you want to do this podcast, I thought about some things. Um, you know, just in my mindset what I've been strong at and I thought, you know, I got to make sure to be clear when I when I say anything, um that this is my opinion and this is strictly stuff that has worked for me because I'll listen to someone else or I don't really sounds bad and I don't really listen to podcast and I don't really watch TV. Um, but I have not amount I'll touch a TV show and I'll just do like this guy's a clown, you know. And I have all respect in the world for pcenty guys in uh, but I'll think of myself to the clown like this is this is a joke. Anybody my wife gets killed a gagger buckere like this is stupid. However, the point that he his technique is working for him in his situation, and uh, I think that's one thing that screws a lot of guys, especially guys that um not the thing. I don't want to use the term jump on the band like the guys want to cure all or you know, they just they want somebody to tell him do this this mission, You're gonna kill big deer. And I'm here to tell you, like, do not any anything I give you. Uh, this is this is a style that works in this area or that area, and truthfully, the way I hunt in my home state is completely different than the way I hunt when I go to Ohio. And then when I go from Ohio to Illinois, that style is actually different. Um. And when I go to Kansas, it's different than all three of them are in the same with North Dakota. So um, I think that's why I love that, like I love the change of things and and figuring. I love puzzles, I love playing chess. It's fun and to figure that out. So if you if you get stuck in the mindst that, Okay, I've got the buck roller and I've got these huge antlers. Um, I'm gonna do the buck roller and smash these antlers together and this hardwoods and I'm gonna have bucks running in. Well, he's act to ensure that you're in the same circumstances that that guy on TV is in. And if if you are, and you might call in a gag or buck, but if you're not, you're probably gonna scare every three in a hand year old out of the woods. So um, So you're exactly right. And I've been extremely um, I don't know successful in the fact that it seems like every state I go to Um, I just run into people. And uh, I have always had a knack for running into like really good, really good dudes. And uh most of these good dudes have turned out to be killers. And uh I've made friends via you know, both site and archery talk and stuff like that years ago. I probably haven't been on a social media page in ten years. But those little connections I made, um like, blossomed into great friendships along with other friends from them. And the interesting thing is when you hunt, um, like, if you're gonna ask me how I scout my home state, I can nail it. And then when you say, but there's a big difference and how I'm gonna scout out of state, um, And guys need to decide for that, and not only out of state, but what state. And then you know, like for instance, when you hunt Kansas, I mean you can go to eastern Kansas. It's completely different than western Kansas. UM, so you've got to be able to be there first, you know. And I always try I love analogy, so it's you know, if you're wrestling against the guy who's a phenomenal takedown technician, UM, you do better figure out how to be good on the mat. Quick, because as soon as he takes you to the mat, you're gonna have to reverse him and work not let him stand up, you know what I mean. And it's the same. It's the same with uh. You know, if you're hunting high pressure, White tells you better learn where everyone else is hunting, and you better learn to be deadly on your your entrance, in your escape and not let the deer know that you're there. Um where you know, and you can't call some of these guys call like maniacs. But when you go to a place like Kansas where there just is no deer, um, I'm sorry, Western kans where the deer population is extremely low, it's opposite. Then here the bucks that are there, you need to be very vocal. They are looking for fights, you know, they're literally looking for other deers. So everything everything changes. So I would totally consider myself a freestyle hunter. There's guys that that are phenomenal decoyers, um, and I would never decoy in my home state. Very few places I would decoy. However, I actually shot a deer last year on a decoy in Kansas. Juff. It's just ridiculously deadly that that Garrett Rowe from Heads Up Decoy makes those and it's almost like cheating, unbelievable, and but that's that's a technique that would not work here. Like, you know, but you have to be able to decipher you're you know, the style and what works. So having connections from different places and then just listening to them is important. So then how do you, though, determine which styles work in your area? Like I gotta imagine if I were to put myself in the shoes of somebody just even listening to the to this podcast over the years, they've heard all these different guys and now they're hearing you. Um, how like what's your mindset when you start getting new ideas from people and then you need to go home and say, Okay, will that work here? Will this work here? Well? This thing? Like do you actively take these ideas in your head and you say, Okay, I think there's a chance, but I just don't know if it will work here. So I'm gonna do it for two hunts this year, or I'm gonna try it once on a swing for the fences with this crazy idea here and we're gonna find out, you know, can this work in New York or No. What's just like the way you think through the filter of how do I how do I see what makes sense for where I'm at versus what's some other guy kind of thing? Sure? So, um, you know, if you're if you're twenty years old, I think it's going to be difficult for you to process someone's input. And I think that's where you struggle a lot because really you've only been hunting for eight or ten years. Um, you don't have a lot of history with hunting. If I'm forty two now and when someone tells me, um, a style or this has been working a lot for me. It's just for instance, Um, the decoy thing that that my buddy Matt turned me on to Travis turned me on too. I got a bunch of great friends I've made over the last fifteen years bow hunt in Kansas, and um, I'm getting advice from not good bow hunters, but like high end, upper echelon. No joke, Like, they're not telling me this to stroke their ego. They're literally being like, listen, dude, this is what you need to do when you get down in those Yucca plants. You know, if somebody like that gives you advice, like I stopped talking and I literally try and absorb everything that he's saying and try and really put it into my mind. And with that being said, I can also think about situations I've been in the past and think, like, you know what, He's right. I remember stalking this one buck and that buck. Actually, and this is true, I was stalking a buck and belly trawling into a buck and I was within bow range, but I wanted to get this yucca plant a little closer. And another deer came over the hill and thought I was a deer and literally started posturing towards me. And if I had had a decoy to just stick up, like, I didn't want to shoot the one that caught me. I want to shoot the bed in one. And you know, when he made these comments about how deadly these decoys are, it's like, yeah, he's right. I'm gonna go out on a limb and get one of Garrett's decoys and you know, do exactly what he said. And he's right. You can literally if you're if you set it up right, um, if you do it, well, it's it's just it's really amazing. It's a blast. I mean, if your board. Just go to Kansas, even if you don't have a tag and just go out on walk in hunting area with a with a decoy and decoy. Dear. It's uh, it's ridiculous. I mean, I hate breathing people, but know that I hate for people to know that secret. But I don't know. It's it's so much fun. But don't don't try and do that in Ohio. Like you're not going to do that in a hard woods and you're just not gonna get away with that in certain places. Um. But but that's how I would and not. It's just like life. You can't be afraid to fail. If somebody gives you great advice and says, listen, you're a very talented welders. Um, set aside forty dollars and start your own business. You have with the takes, do this, there's some this. If that guy is a self made multimillionaire who's very successful, I would take his advice and I would quit my job and start doing it. So you know, if you're talking to some guy at the grocery store that's smoking a cigarette and he's got Walmart camel on, um, you know, and he's telling you how he killed this hundred and fifty deer. Well, I've great in my opinion, you got lucky in so but I still listen to a story. If it's if it's his first big buck, you know that's it. But if he's killing him every year like that, I might listen to him. But chances are he's a clown. So you know, if if if a high end guy is giving you advice, um, you know you gotta you gotta listen to it and then think in your own mind, like could I have used you know, how it does it work in the past? And um, I think I'm probably really outside of the box and a lot of my hunting stuff because um, I've hunted a lot. I've hunted a lot of different states, and every state is really can be a different style. And then you know, hunting pressure changes it. At the time of the season changes it. Um, the lay of the ground changes it. And you know it's just the amount of fear that are there changing. So many things change it. And when you start weighing in all these different variables, it changes your style and it makes you a more you know, a killer, I mean, and you could probably bounce that off somebody like like a I mean, he's killing a great deer and elk and stuff in numerous different states and you don't mean to, but when you're doing that, you know, it's it's literally like cross training. You know, it's you're just becoming you know, more adaptable. And then you put it like things I've done out West, I've I've put the work here that I never did. You know, twenty years ago, I carried junk binoculars like on a strap around my neck. You know, it literally looked like a like a a Little League player going out with his fleets on his neck. It was a complete joke. And you know, the first couple of times I hunted out West, um, I was like, man, I gotta change my my optics and change how I do this. And then I hunted with a really elite guy, Matt Schienberg, and he, uh, his his glassing was just to all we did and it was so much fun and it was like this is that was an Arizona But still the idea I write down, I was like, I am going to become a master of optics and a master of asking. And you know, I don't care where you hunt if you are not really using your optics a lot. You're you know, you're really missing them, You're missing some stuff. So you know that's just stuff you'll learn. But uh but yeah, somebody gives you a good pointer, yeah, you know, I try it. And there's just oddball things, um that that come up. Like, for instance, one time I was hunting this spot here and I was after a good buck and I knew I needed to stay away from him to really pin down where it was going to be. And I was so pissed because it was windy, and uh, I don't know. I mean, this isn't the middle of nowhere, but I don't know where this cardboard box blows into this um elfelfa field and I was just like, oh my gosh, like this one is like I can't get down and move this box because it's getting to be prime time and the stupid boxes in the middle of the field, and every year that came out of that thicket walked to that box and sniffed it and like inspected, including the buck I wanted to kill. And I was like, you've got You've got to be kidding me. So I literally got down and got out of there, you know, at dark, and then went back the next day at noon, grabbed that box and I got it out of there, and I put a white five gallon tail there, so I wanted to change it, and um, I shot that buck, you know. And the crazy thing is some dude, um Zeke Feiffer or something. I think that's his name, and excuse me for botching his name. Like two years later, yeah, yeah, exactly, like two years later wrote an article about putting a five gallon tail out and I smiled and thought, that kid is so on, that is so spot Um he wrote an article like he had to have had the same experience that it was a wonderful article. And had I not had that experience, I would have been like, that's the dumbest Do not do that. Do not put a man made oil, you know. I literally put a fifteen forty reteller t that I filled my deson up with oil barrel out there, and every year came to it and was curious with it. And I didn't shoot that deer like he wasn't like on it on it, but he went around it, which pushed him closer to me. I smoked him. It's just those odd things that you you have to be observant and when you notice something. I mean a lot of people, including myself, would be pissed about that cardboard box. Instead I was pissed about it, but I observed that, hey, this is a cause and effect of this, and maybe I can use this by a technique I used very often. I don't really hunt elsa fields, um so, but it worked. It was just amazing for that. So well, it's interesting, you know, as you're as you're talking through all this, it makes me think of one of the kind of things I preach all the time, which is just go and put yourself in new experiences. Like there's almost no easier way to become a better hunter than to just force yourself out of your comfort zone. I mean, so many people I think get stuck in like I always hunt this farm every year. Is where I hunt in my home state, is where I live. Um it's my spot. That's where I hunt. And they just do that year after year after year after year, and they wonder why, you know, things aren't changing, why they're not having a different level of success, why they've stagnated. But I think if you simply, without anything else, just force yourself to go new places and then based off what you just said, I'll add to that hunt with new people, hunt new states and new places and go out there with some new people ever once in a while, and then do what you just said. Listen, actually listen process what they say. That right there, I think can just take you leaps and bounds because you have to. Then every time you go somewhere new, every time you're in that new situation, you're forced to play that game of chess in a new way. If you're doing it in the same farm every day all the time, it's you're not you're not growing. Like the only way to and I'm preaching the quiet here, I realized, but the only way to get like stronger muscles, right, you gotta tear them down a little bit. You have to stress them enough to actual muscle fibers start to start to break just a little, and then they grow back stronger. Like the same thing is the case with the hunter. You need to stress yourself, put yourself a new challenging situations might break you down at first, but then you figure it out and you become better. I mean, that's basically what we're saying right that. I'm You're like, that's a you're an impressive dude to pick up on that. That is hundred and like to keep. My whole life changed. When I was like twenty, I was a killer, just a flat out killer, not a big buck killer. Just a killer. Like we were poor, we needed meat. Like I just killed everything in my pay if I had a tag, things were getting killed. But I wanted to kill big deer like I was good at shooting. Just just getting things killed. That that's it. I was not a big buck killer. And when I was about twenty, it was just frustrating because I would find big buck sign. I would you know, bump big deer. I knew there was a big deer in the area, and there was a tree I can walk I know right the tree I was sitting in. And I was sitting in this tree you one day. It was a beautiful fall day, and exactly what you just said was happening to me. I was sitting on my spot that my father had showed me where the hunt. He had showed me how we walk in, where to sit. I was doing the same rigamarole. And I was thinking to myself, Man, I am doing everything how everyone is telling me to do it. You know, I'm doing exactly what my dad said. I'm doing exactly what John says, I'm doing exactly what Tom says, like and I am just getting like average results. And then I thought I literally luckily for me, which sounds bad. I had a falling out with my dad, like literally then like that's when we kind of parted ways, and I started to question everything my father had ever, uh you know, told me about you know, ever taught me. Not that he was a bad guy or anything, but I just questioned everything. And I remember sitting there thinking like, you know what, my dad is not a very good hunter. He's a gun hunter. He's killed one deer with a bow and arrow, Like, why am I taking advice from this guy? And then I thought John is not a very good hunter. He's a gun hunter. Like I started thinking like all these guys that are giving me all this advice, like I'm not protecting anything myself. I'm just doing what people tell me to do. It. I sat in this tree and I literally thought, like I bumped the deer every time here. I know they're a deer here, Why am I bumping them? And then it's like it's a morning hunt. Why did I just walk through that whole field that they're eating in to get in here, and my my wind is blowing into the bedding grounds. And I remember sitting there and I thought this is stupid, and I had I was in a junk climber. I climbed down the tree, put it on my bat. It was prime time, and I thought, I've already ruined this fro getting out of here. And I walked out of there. And this was before the internet, and I literally drew a map in my mind of what that woods and what that. I still have the map what that looked like, and drew in the fields and then figured out that I needed to attack this obviously from the down wind side. I was attacking with the wind in my back. So I went in that night and I sat in a hedgerow and just glass in a place I've never sat, and I couldn't believe the deer that trickled out of the stickt and why they trickled out everywhere except for the spot I was this morning that morning. So I reevaluated that and attacked that wood the next day from the down wind side. And I only went in just a little bit, and uh, the deer I saw, I mean, I then I was in the deer that had no idea I was there. And I could tell these deer were a little spooky. They were looking up to where I had always sat. I was only a hundred yards difference in this wood, but um they knew. They were actually hugging the down wind side of the woods to check and see if I was there, and right down I was like, I got it, Like I'm this is I learned something. I now I'm a student and I was so excited to have figured this out on my own. And I literally said to myself, I'm throwing like I am deleting my memory of anything anyone has ever told me. And I am only going to put into play things that I know are facts. And right now I know the way that I attack the woods entrance and escape is very important because I just learned this today. You know when I shot my first, Um, I shot out my first pope and young buck that year, and I shot a pope and young buck in my home state every year since that except or last year. Is the first year in my life I didn't shoot a a deer in this state just from laziness. But I mean, it just turns down to if you, if you, you gotta think for yourself. So anything I say on this podcast today, you know, take it with a grain of salt. Think about what I say, but don't take it for gold. You know, don't don't think like, oh, he said this, I gotta do that. You gotta put it into play, and you gotta think about like is this going to work in my block? Can I attack this from the down wind? Um? Can I get away with attacking from the upland or you know, you gotta put these own things in the play. And once I started doing that, I really like, I really don't watch TV show, Like I don't watch any hunting shows. They you know, I've enjoyed them, Um, I've probably watched them fifteen years ago. And then it was like, this is just hindering me, Like this doesn't even do any good. I wouldn't tell anybody like don't watch those. But anything I've learned is literally from actual experience or from other people's you know, friends that are killers, um, And they said, you know, they've given me pointers about things that have worked for them, and I've I've put it into play, and it's like and some of the stuff people have told me it's like I disagree with Like it's like, no, I'm not, it's not it does not work. But um, other people who have told me stuff and it's like this sounds absurd and and it's um it works for their area. My body, Matt palm kust won't go ahead. I would like to hear what you're inst about, Matt. Ll So, Matt, Um, I drew a mule deer tag one time and I was, you know, my goal was it was a big news to me, is a big mule. You know, I don't come from the older country. And you know, Matt's extremely tom cool and he's like yeah, you know, and he I don't want him to be like, you know, hunt here here, you know, I just um, I'm just going hunt. And I love that and he's great and the fact that you know, he'll tell me what kind of terrain to look for whatever. And anyways, I found a couple of gagger bucks. You know, two of them were they were big. I mean two of them were had to have grossed over two hundred. So I was pretty tickled. The problem for me was, um, they were on and off um public you know, walk in hunting area. But anyways, this one evening in particular, I glassed this buck up that I was looking for, and he was finally on this public but it was literally like a quarter section which is a hundred what is it a hundred six acres, which seems like a ton, but that is not much. That's like a little tiny. It's nothing like they are on and off the quarter section and sack and and this buck was in the middle, and it's all like crp, that's that's up to your chest. And I had a flip phone and I called Matt and like, dude, this book is and he was hugh he did with a big buck. I'm like, dude, this buck is in the middle of this field. I'm like I'm losing light. I'm like, man, I go you know, I was just kind of taking his brain, like I don't even know what to do. And Maths like do they have a dough with him? And I'm like, yeah, I think he does. Like he hasn't left a spot, and Math's like, man, you don't have much light. He's like, um, I'm like I have no cover. He's like just literally he goes just run right at him. He goes try and hold your bowl up or something like its antlers. He's like, just run at him. He's like he if he sees you, he's gonna get on alert. But if that dough doesn't see you, if she stays there, he's staying. He's like, literally run up to that here and shoot him. And his advice was something, you know, something to that effect. And I was like, dude, I cannot. I cannot run up to this deer and shoot him. And he's like, all right, well, he's like that's what I would do. He's like, that's first of all. He's like, you don't have much choice. And definitely, I'm pretty sure that buck is going to stay there. And I'm like, all right, I'm going for it. Through it. You're right. I mean, he's not coming back on this public land anytime soon, I don't think. And uh, I put my boat, you know. I put my phone down and grabbed my boat and just sprinted and I closed, you know, I closed a lot of distance fast and just ran it this dear and I got within sixty yards of him, and I literally just ran out of light and didn't have it. I was going up this hill on him and just didn't have enough elevation. But that Buck stood there. I could have shot him in the back, you know, but I couldn't get an arrow into his vitals. If I had, you know, probably a recurve, I could have locked an arcing shot. But the point is like I would have never done that, Like, there's no way I would have gotten within sixty years yards of that dear Um. But his experience in his terrain and his type of ground, um, and in that exact setting that worked, and like in in I would I don't know figure that out. So that kid really advanced me um a lot, just with that tip, you know. And and then you throw in his tip and and Travis's tip and Garrett Rose tip of using that decoy, and it's like, man, those guys advanced me just with those two tips, using that decoy. And how do you use it? Um? It would take a fellow five or six years of just stumbling, just accidentally learning this. So when you can pick up those tips from killers like those guys, I mean, they saved me, you know, they put me on a different level fast and um being open to their ideas. Uh, it just it makes it deadly. Yeah, And and it sounds like again it's it's finding the right things that work for specific places. So so those tactics worked really great in that wide open country, it wouldn't work in New York. Let's take like an example period. I'd like to get your perspective on how to hunt a certain time frame and then how that would be different in New York versus Ohio, versus Kansas or something like that. Um So I remember hearing you talk about I can't remember if we talked about this or if this was something you told Andy Andy told me. Um, but the fact that you really like, especially in New York hunting kind of early early or into the October lull, like that time period, you really focus on trying to get it done in New York and then you travel elsewhere across the state. Um So when this podcast airs, it's going to be right about middle of October, right in that ballpark. So people right now are thinking, how do I get on a buck between like the tenth and the twentie or something like that. So when you're thinking of that time frame for you, UM, maybe let's first talk New York because it sounds like you're focused in New York quite a bit at that time. How are you approaching your hunt's trying to get a big mature buck on the ground at that time of year. Yeah. So, Um, first of all, I don't I don't believe in October law at all. Like, it's not these deer do not. These deer are eating, walking, pooping. There's no laws. Uh, there's a ton of crops up and the weather is changing, the crops are changing. That's there is no law. I've got so many great deer in the law that people talk about. It's a lull of of knowledge, is all it is. Deer are still living in the woods. They're still there. You know, there's thousands of acres of corn up, you know, all they can't find them. Yeah, it's because all the soybeans went from green to brown. They're not eating soybeans now. They're you know, they're eating the corn all day and they're they're in the lf delfa at night. You know. There there is no law. But so when I attack, and I think I have a an extreme advantage over a lot of guys in big buck states, and the fact that I don't live in a big buck state. Um, I live in a state that could be a mega state if our politics were different. But um, I live in a state that if you work hard, you can kill a hundred deer. Um, your average guy here is probably thrilled to kill like a hundred hundred and tennant deers. So it's a big advantage for me and the fact that I don't get stressed out over um, there's not a hundred deer, Like I've got to get this deer killed before I go Ohio or Kansas the Illinois. I literally will you know, I find a hundred thirty deer and it's like, yeah, that's good enough. I'm killing them because it's only gonna get so big here, Like I'm not, you know, it's fine to leave where my friends at Ohio and Kansas in Illinois, I mean they're literally they're like, yeah, I got a hundred seventy in in this blockwoods and you know, there's a one ninety six over here, and I mean, these poor guys they can't go anywhere because how can you leave that? But that's a big advantage. It's a big advantage for me. It was like it doesn't matter, Um, I personally think everybody should kill like if I'm a white tailer, I mean, I love the elk and mulet these but um, I mean a white tails are really what I know, and it's you should really kill a big white tail in your home states. It's it's really easy if you sit down and figure out you know, the certain there's certain etiquette that you have to have. UM in my style where I live. UM, I personally think it's easy if you talk to other people and I think it's difficult. But we have a very big where I live. It's it's all agriculture, UM, big crop fields where you know your average field is probably uh hundred fifty acres and then your average woods is trobe of like fifty to seventy acres. UM. Would that be insaide? In my opinion, it's great because it's it's so easy. You can pick these deer up all summer. UM, you can glass them. You can find big deer if you're just smart about it. You've you've got to scout them. UM. And scouting, in my opinion, is not walking through the woods, you know, looking for deer tracks. All you're doing is screwing everything up, Like stay out of the woods, use good optics, get a I thought, get a good head, get a good paramunoculars. They don't have to be super expensive. But the more money you can spend on optics, you'll have them forever and they'll be good. Um, find whatever your piece of ground is. And like what you were saying earlier, if you're hunting Grandma's and you've been hunting it forever, yes, that's nice that you have that, but Uncle Tom still hunts it, and your dad hunts it, and your cousin Tony hunts it. Like they shoot everything that moves, there's probably not big deer there. So if you really want to kill big deer, you have to hunt where big deer are. Um. If you're not seeing big deer on grandma Grandpa's like leaves, go somewhere else and start finding big deer. Um to get permission on places and scout the scout daylights out of them. Uh. And that's that's all I do. I mean, it's really my style has changed. When I was twenty years old or one, it was almost obscene how much all I did was worked and scout for deer, and at dark I took girls out. That was it. Like, that's that's all my life. Yeah, it's a great I lived an amazing life. Um, And if you're serious, and once like I think in my mindset, like I I I, everything is black and white for me. There isn't much gray area in life. And if I do something that I'm either all in or I have no interest in it. And hunting has been that way for me. And um, I really went went from a knucklehead, like just an average blowhard that you know it was happy to even get a shot at a ninety here too. You know, two years later I wouldn't shoot anything under one thirty, which on our state is like you know, that's like the equipment a shooting at one sixty or one seventy and Kansas and that that came from knowledge and when I when I realized, you know, how to attack things and this and that I realized like, man, I'm doing something already that people aren't doing. And then when I started scouting, and I started realizing, like man, I saw more good dear that first year I actually scouted than I had ever seen in a lifetime. And you hear these people talk like, oh, these dear ghosts. No they're not. They're not ghosts. They're literally, and in a respectful way, they're dumb animals like human beings are smart we are smart. Animals are dumb, So like, mentally, get that, uh, get that out of your head that they're going to outsmart you. Deer have wonderful senses. They have great vision, they have great hearing, and they have great noses. Like, don't don't give them a reason to smell you, see you, or hear you. They're not gonna outthink you. They're literally getting hit in the road. They're not smart. So once I realized like that that they're very habitual, um, I learned their habits, and then I learned how to keep myself out of their instincts. And it's it's pretty easy. Um So in my home state, that's how I do it. I glass them up and I'll be like, I try and find like three or four good areas that I can hunt. Um. When I was a kid, I would literally leave every morning at sun up if I was at work. I worked hard so that my bosses could not complain when I was like, I'm gonna go look for deer for a half an hour. I know not everybody could do that, but I literally was a maniac when I'm working, so that they were so happy with me that they couldn't fire me. And I would go look for deer at sun up and glass and then I would go back to work and work like a maniac and then get out of work. And if we went to a graduation party or a wedding in the evening, when it came prying time, I would literally be like, Hey, I gotta go. I am gonna go look for deer. I'm gonna go look for deer for this last forty five minutes. And I know that my wife was is wonderful and she'd just be like, yep, you know whatever, this is what he does. And a lot of times I would just slip away from the wedding go look for big deer, even if it was two hours from my house. It's like, man, there might be a big deer here. And that's the mindset, Like if you're not that little, you know that first half hour a light, in that last half hour at light, I mean that's when you're getting most of your information. If you don't have a lot of time to scout and stuff, just you have to make time. You know. It's kind of like exercising people. You can teach people like oh you if you do this this and this and eat this, you know you're gonna be in great shape. Yeah, well, people still have to do it, like you have to actually do that. And it's the same with with scouting and killing big deer. You know, you can, you have you can tell people all the information they want, but they have you actually have to apply it. And one of the things with scouting and killing big deer, if you're gonna kill big deer, you have to you have to hunt where big deer are. And the hunt with where big deer are, you have to learn where big deer are, and you got to scout them. So you got to put in the legwork and scout and not just sticking cameras all over the place, like actually go out and visually see them and know that, Okay, he stepped out of here, he stepped out on this edge. The wind is doing this. Ah, this is why he came from there. And oh, you know what, he keeps looking behind him. Why is he looking behind him? You know, I'm ready to go, man, This one buck keeps looking behind him in the woods. Sit there and after sunset you see a gagger step out, and it's like, that's why he kept looking behind him. And even though you know so I mean, it's those little things. It's like you got to put in that effort. And um, you know I get luck all the time. People always like, oh, you're so lucky, and it's like, I'm irish, but I don't believe in law. This isn't this a luck. This is a little bit of thought process and a little bit of effort and then a little bit of execution. Like I'm just putting the pieces together. And you know, I look at my circle of friends and if you like you, I'm sure if you look at my phone for the last month with a dead elk that are laying on the ground, it's unbelievable. And now and you know, come white tail season, Uh, it's gonna be my phone just blows up. And when I really think about the guys that I converse with, um, we all think differently but exactly the same. I know that's odd, but like they have the exact same mindset and we can they really have it, and and the not of nobody's a trade of work. Like none of these guys are lazy. They're all putting in that little bit of effort. And you know, you can kill a good deer every three or four years anybody can do that, but I mean I struggle to not. I don't know which one I'm gonna kill, you know, And those guys are the same way, like, well, I can't. I don't want to kill this and I don't want to kill that one. And um, that's the problem you have when you when you actually figure things out. It's like I just passed up a hundred deer in New York. I mean, that's stupid. I shouldn't have done that. But that's there's a good problem to have, you know. Let's let's get two brass tacks. Then let's continue down with this example. So, so it's mid October and you're getting out every night you can if you're not hunting, and your glass and you're scouting. You did that in the summer. Now it sounds like you're still going to do that at times during the season. Let's say you spot a gagger, you spot the buck you want to shoot. He steps out into a field some kind of food source, and you spot him last life. So now I want to know what's going through your head, and then what's your stunt? Like, how did do you just go right and set up right where you saw him step out, what are you thinking about? And then and then what happens if he doesn't show up that night? What do you do the second day? And it's interesting as I'm reading this out, as saying this to you, this is exactly this scenario that happened to me over the last three days, Like exactly on October one, I glassed an area I saw the buck I wanted to get a shot at. He came out the next day. I moved in and tried to hunt where I saw him the second day. Because I didn't see him that night, I went back in for one more hunt in that spot, and I thought, with the wind direction we had, it would actually be better for him, a little bit riskier for me. But I decided, you know what, that might actually be what he needs to to come back out again, because this is a closer wind to what he moved on when I saw him two days ago. So I tried one more hunt. It didn't work out. Now it's today. Now I'm making a new decision. I'm changing things up and take one more stab at him, but in a different kind of way. Um, I'm curious, though, what what's your mindset? How do you approach that you spot a big buck. Now what do you do over the next couple of days to try to move in on him? Right? So you know, again, if that's in my home state, I'm probably going to be hunting a piece of ground that I know extremely well. That that I know, um, how they travel in that woods and and where they bed and all that. And if you have that knowledge, now you're one step up. Uh And and truthfully, I I really I like to kill my dear and for a year, for other than before I had kids, I killed them all, like my New York dear, Like the first day or two, that's when you need to kill deer because everybody else isn't in the woods screwing it up. But say it's it's this time. We're in your scenario, in your situation, and you see a good buck. There's a reason he's there. Um. And I would also take into account what other deer are with him, and if I've seen him with those other deer, if he's still running in a bit of a bachelor group, if he singled himself off, I mean, if he's in a bachelor group, and you you know, just for instance, um, I kill a real wide buck, you're I don't know ten or twelve years ago, and uh, he was with two deer two bucks all the time, like these same two bucks. And then these two bucks would show up. Um it was almost like he used them as a guard. Like these two little thing bets would just go everywhere, and I pretty much patterned to those deer. He would always show up behind him. It might be ten that's behind them, but he would be there. And I killed this deer. He actually came out into a bit of a it's just a grown up field and it's like a CRP field. And I saw these two small bucks and anyways, that buck staged up and he never moved from that corner. But I only I was in a sputting observation stand I wasn't even trying to kill anything. And I saw those little bucks, and I paid attention to what those little deer did. And those little deer did everything that the rest of the deer do when they go the way they went, So I knew where they were gonna go gonna go and where they were gonna feed. And there was there was a steel that's a different piece of property, and I thought they're gonna go over into these these um sleybeans and probably eat soybeans in this hidden field and uh in the dark. And then they're either going to bed in that woods across the street, which they tend to. Um. So I kind of watched what those other deer were doing, and whatever the two smallest bucks did, I figured that buck is gonna follow suit. And I killed him the following morning because they did just that. I figured they're either going to bed across that road, which he did. Um, they went over and eight sleybeans, and I went out and glass them. Um literally a sun up, I'm glassing these deer. They're coming down this little draw. But anyways, glassed them and I knew what stand to get in and I spooked deer that were in the woods, but I didn't spook the deer that I wanted to kill. Um. And so in that circumstance, it's kind of a tough one. But paying attention to all not just that deer, but like the cause and effect and where he might go as there other food sources. Is he going to stay here? Now there's another geer I killed one time. Um, he was your typical like h like an old man, like you know, he's like all of us. He's like, I'm getting like, I like people and stuff, but I would just as soon stay at home on a Friday night and have four or five beers by myself. And you know, like, no, I don't want to go to the bars, and I don't want to be around a ton of people. If I do, it's like a small group. And I think Big Bucks of that way. Um, you don't want to dick They don't want to dick around with all these little morons. They literally want to push them away and were they just want to walk alone. They want to go to their own spot. And when I see a big Buck that is private. Man, he's killable. Like I like that, Um, because there's less you know, where all the other deer are gonna go. He's not gonna go there, and you can kind of figure out where the next best spot is. So um, you know, there's so much that that comes into play. I think I should just come out there and get a Michigan tag and try and kill this thing for you. He's point, we'll do it together. I'm gonna try to get done tonights before you can get out here. But if not, I'll give you a yeah, Well we'll we'll we'll both shoot on three, right, and you just shoot on two. You But but yeah, so you know, you'd have to have some history with a deer to really be able to know him that. I mean, it's just a deer. You know. If I'm chasing a deer in my home state, um, I probably know him really well. Like I'm already gonna know. Like if he's in this field and he's gonna be here at dark and he hasn't moved off this field that dark, he's probably happy here and he's gonna he's gotta bed here. He's gonna bed in this field, eat all night, and get up and walk into this little thicket. But if at sun uh, if that, you know, half an hour before dark, he's already out of that field in two fields over, I mean, good, who knows where he's gonna be. You gotta figure out, um, you know, you gotta figure out where he's gonna bed over there is he gonna come back? But if he's hanging out in that in that pocket, he might be there in the night. I would hunt a good you know, I would figure out how going in that woods in the morning. But that would come down to having really intimate knowledge, um all of that. I think it's harder to kill one on a morning front when you have seen him in the evening, because now he's got ten twelve hours to cover ground and dick around, who knows where he's gonna be. But when you can put one to bed and you watch him walk into a thicket, that's when you can really cheat in on them. And that's when you have to know the bedding grounds, know the other gear nowhere, everything beds, and that's when you gotta be risky and and take chances. And uh um, that's I love killing him that way, you know, putting them the bag and then' and I'll literally call my wife and like I cannot get the kids off the school bus. I just the buck I'm after. Literally, I glass him this morning. He's in he's in the pines and when he comes out of there, the wind is going to be a southwest wind and I'm going to drill him right here. I'm killing this deer to night. I would say it's like chance. I like, my knaves are sharp, the urn owners hooked up on like silling this deer and uh and she she'll be like, yeah, he said he's gonna kill that tonight. But I don't say that very often. I mean, normally I don't go for the throats. But if you have that scenario and you bet him up, that's the way to kill him. So if I were you, I would really try and pinwheel where he is um and sit tight on him and then slip in and and cut his throat on an evening hunt, because they get him to follow him up on a morning is tough. They just they can cover so much ground. Yeah, and unfortunately in this case, I do know the deer pretty well. I watched him a lot last year, passed on him last year. I've got a pretty darn good idea of the general zone he's betting in most of the time. Um, So tonight I'm kind of doing in the first two nights because I saw him moving daylight out to this food source that I originally didn't think he would come out too. But I saw him. I was like, I'll take a couple of easy shots. It's low impact starting the outside, and now today I'm gonna push in deeper and go inside closer to where I think he he will be betted. So we'll see how it goes. Um. We have to. That's cool, that's smart. I always tell people cheat their way in and some guys don't get it. But um, when you when I try not to break up a you know, go into a woods very much. I'm really trying to hunt on the property of them. But when you do, a lot of times I'll go ten feet into it woods, like when I'm when I'm trying to sneak in on one like that unless I really know it well, but especially on morning hunt, like I just tiptoe into the woods ten feet hanging stand um, and then if I'm not seeing what I want to, I'll go thirty more yards in. And that's smart. Like I it's a lot of work, and a lot of guys don't want to do that. They want to and they want to chomp in there and be heard of it. But you know, the more information you get on that deer, that's that's what what's gonna kill him. Yeah, Now, how would this be or would this be any different if you were hunting in Ohio or Kansas, um or how how would your state your strategy start differing when you went to one of these different states. As we're you know, somewhere in October yeah. So, um, when you're hunting your home state, you know the ground extremely well and you know who Kennan can't be on the ground, or you know, you know like okay, man, I gotta go for a throat because everybody's in here, or hey, this is a little pocket that I know, nobody's hunting here. I got time. When you go out of state, um, I I pretty much just walk in or public land. UM. I do have a couple of places over the years I've gotten, especially in Kansas, that are just that are great private pieces. Um. But they pretty much almost give anybody permission anything. But you know, there's a different there's a different aggressiveness that I admittedly turned on when UM I hunt out of state, and UM, I wouldn't call it a desperation, but my hunting style has really changed. I think everybody changes, and I should probably touch based on that. When you were talking about scouting, Like when I was a kid, I scouted like a maniac, and really for the past fifteen years, I've scouted really hard. I'll know where there's six or seven shooters. Um. Now they have kids in in a business and soccer practices of the kids and all this stuff. Like that's out the window. I really mean, I do not scout like a meniac anymore. But I don't have to. I know I know where a good deer is going to be, and I know that all I gotta do is glass them up, and I know the ground, like I know how I'm going to kill him. Really not that hard here to get them killed anymore. I've gotten extremely aggressive. I used to wait and be patient. I'm gonna try and get this dear. I hope he comes here, and you know this is a good area I'm gonna I used to just kill him a patients and now I'm literally like, yeah, I can't let it. I can't. You know, today's face Friday. I can't hut again until Wednesday. Like if I think that deer is somewhere, I'm gonna kill him. And I have a great confidence in the fact that now I'm either going to kill him or oh well, I blew them out of here. I have I don't know how many raps, I mean, they're I have antlers every I have tons of good kills into my belt, so if I blow one out of there, I don't really care, Whereas I would almost make myself throw up if I if I blew a big buck out. So I really think hunting with that mindset like not caring, Like I like not that I don't care, but it's not gonna be the end of my life. This is not going to be a big blemish in my hunting career. If I bump this bucker or if he runs over and somebody else kills him, it doesn't hurt me anymore. It's no big deal. And all that's done has made me even more deadly because now I'm like, yep, I don't care if this I got a good feeling about it. I'm going after this dear. He's in trouble. And when you go into it with that attitude, it's kind of like truthully, it's like killing deer or anything in life that it's kind of like dating girls. One time I was at a bar when I wasn't illegal to drink, and these two beautiful girls came in and all the guys in the bar, my buddies, like, man, we're like a nobody went and talk to them, and I made a joke. I'm like, I'm gonna go just flirt them up and tell him I'm gorgeous. And I just want to flirted with these girls and talk to him. And you know, it was way over my head with these two beautiful women. I think I was like eighteen, I shouldn't even been in a bar, and nobody talks to these girls because they're so hot. You know. There, I did something that you know, I was aggressive about it. I just learned them to talk to him. And in eighteen I learned like, yeah, nobody's talking to these beautiful women. And truthfully, I've always dated beautiful women because I don't think anybody's talking to him there and people are inconfident to go talk to him. And killing deer is the same way. If I know where there's a big deer, even trouble, I'm gonna go kill them. And and other people tip toe around it or they you know their their tactics are weak and have a good have know what you're gonna say to these pretty girls and freaking go for it. And the same thing with a deer. You know what the wind is, and I have some balls and go in there and and uh and get them killed, you know, do it with do it with some uh conviction and some confidence and some some evidence to back up your what you're doing and it works. I mean, I really thought my hunting career was kind of gonna go downhill because they wasn't spending the time that I used to. Dude, it's easier for me to kill deer now than it ever has been because I just don't care. I mean I do caresh saying that in a sarcastic way, like I don't if I don't kill ader this year, and I don't, I have piles of them, it doesn't matter. I want, Yeah, I want to kill one, but I don't really matter. And that takes the edge off. So so what are the what are the things that you are doing when you say like you know, I don't care, so I'm going to be aggressive because you don't have the time, You're gonna just go for it. Like, what's an example of something you're doing now that you would call the aggressive going for the throat kind of move, you know? For I might think in my head, it's like, well, like what I was what I'm doing tonight. I know that I'm gonna I'm pushing in much farther into the property than I usually would early, and I know that the wind direction, like some deer will win me, like it's inevitable some deer gonna win me. But I believe that based off everything I know about this deer, based of all the history, I think there's a damn good chance that he'll use this wind in a certain way which will put him buy me. And either it's gonna be I'm gonna kill him, or you know, I want to blow some deer and maybe he'll do something different and maybe he'll he'll win me too. But I've got a good feeling I'm going into the kill zone. UM, high risk, high reward kind of situation, Like what are those situations for you? Now you're doing this kind of thing? What does that look like? Yeah, and that's the right add a team to have. UM. I always say like high risk, high reward, and I'm a dent behind that. However, I pad my bets extremely well, Like you know, I will go into a a spot and and say, oh, you know, I mean, you're gonna kill them. But truthfully, I already know so much about this deer and so much about this area, like I'm probably gonna kill him, Like I don't think, you know, I'm trying to be cool and say, oh, it doesn't matter I'm gonna you know, high risk, high reward. Um, it is a high risk, but it's extremely well calculated risk. Like I wouldn't make that risk if the wind was bad, I'd be like, no, I can't go after the steers tonight. Uh And you get that too, and uh, like I don't want to preach to people like, yeah, go in and go after him, Like, if everything's perfect, definitely go in and go after him. Um. You know, when those two girls walk in the bar, if they have two dudes with them, do not go over and say the things that you were going to stay here that wait till the girls are alone and then say it. It's the same thing with the deer. So yeah, I killed them. I killed I had a guy show me a picture of a drop time buck. This was quite a while ago, I don't know, seven or eight years ago, and I had I had glassed the deer. He's a really nice I think he was four and a half, which for us is um, I mean that's a dinosaur around here. People they just don't live to that age. And he was he was actually he was a good deer. Uh. He I wanted him to live another year and he was living in this pocket that not a lot of people had permission on, and um, I was not going to kill him. And this dude shows me the picture of this deer and he has permission on this ground and I'm like, oh yeah, you know that's great. And he's like, I'm gonna kill this year and I thought, man, so it sounds d but it's like, screw it. I'm gonna like is this if this deer shows up where I think he is, this kid, this guy's gonna blow him out of this would And of course, so I go and I just laughed. And of course that deer showed up that you know, the finally the first evening, I looked for him because this guy blew him out. So it's like, I'm gonna put this deer to sleep, you know, I'm gonna I watched him that whole evening. In the morning, I went in and put that deer to sleep, just like we were talking. And it's like I'm killing this deer, Like this deer knows that all the pressure everybody came into the woods. It was the opening day. I think I killed him the second day and that was the thing. It's like, I'm killing this deer and I hung a stand for him, which that's I don't like hanging stands, Like, uh, I'm always amazed how guys will hang stands in July, you know, and they're all proud that they got all their stands trimmed and everything. And it's like, okay, that's great for the rut, like if you put it in a gray rut spot. But like they're hanging these off the wall stands, and it's like, man, you guys must know more than me, because it seems like a lot of times like this, a block will happen to come out like just out of half it, he'll come out this trail and this, you know, this would be the perfect tree. And so a lot of times I'll hang a stand for a deer and it sucks because you're you're screwing up the you know, you're sweating, you're hanging a stand quick. But if you're efficient about it doesn't have the perfect you don't have any shooting leanes trim but um, that's when you know. That's when you're going for his throat. But I would only do that with that knowledge and information, and I figured, you know what I mean, they're gonna kill this deer um or blow them out of here, and you know, I I killed him. So that and that was work. That was great, But it also came down I knew the deer, I knew his escape patterns, and I knew where he was living. He was going back between these two woods. And I figured once these guys hit this wood, this guy was hunting him, that buddy of hunting them. I mean, they were all going to try and kill this deer. We all went in there and completely blew this deer out of the woods. And once they did that, they pushed him over to actually they can hunt where I killed them too. But um, they pushed him over there and I killed them. But it came with knowledge. It wasn't like um, you know, and I didn't have to stand there. If I wouldn't have taken that risk, I wouldn't have that opportunity. There's there's a there's a million there. There's a million other stories that I went for deer and blew them out. So I don't want you to think that every time I go for him, I get them. But it's I would say, it's really poice seven. At the time of the time, if I decide, like I'm I'm I'm gonna go for I'm gonna push the envelope. Um, I'm gonna get this deer. You you get them, but it comes with a calculated risk. There's knowledge behind it. And I'm not just gonna go sit in my lucky stand. And if I don't have a reason, like it's I don't know. Our season has been open. We just stay of the fourth Since our fourth day, I haven't even been hunting yet, um because I haven't found anything worth shooting. I'm not hunting deer or I'm I want to hunt a deer. Um. And when I go sit like, there's if I'm sitting in a tree stands, there's like I'm after something. Otherwise I'm just sitting in what I always call observation stands. They're skyscrapers. They're really high, and usually they're in spots that I can see three or four different either fields or travel corridors or something, and I'm, you know, I'm getting education. And then once I realized like, oh man, this is the place, you know, I gotta get in there. He's gonna bed. Then I slip in and go for those. And I think a lot of guys are like that. Like, I don't think you see that on the TV shows and stuff because they can't do that on the TV show you know there, and they don't have to. They're hunting, you know, mega beautiful river bottoms and stuff. And I hate them that for that, But we don't hate them for that. But if I was a multi millionaire, I would buy Beautiful all my buddies. Yeah, And we always always say that. People will be like, oh, I hate that show is ridiculous, and it's like, yeah, it was ridiculous. But if I was a multi millionaire, I would actually own a beautiful river about But I enjoy watching run past Me. But yeah, but that's why they don't see that on most TV shows. They can't. You can't hunt that way. One of these one of these aggressive moves of sorts. One of the things that I hear from so many of the best deer hunters out there is trying to hunt a buck when he has the wind in his favor to a degree, And we kind of we talked about wind a little bit last time on on our last podcast conversation a couple of years ago. But I want to dive into this just a little bit further because it's something that I'm trying to implement myself more and more. You know, early on, I was always obsessed with the wind, but always obsessed with how do I hunt so that the there's the very least chance of any deer winding me. I need the wind as safe as possible. I was always obsessing over that. But then you start seeing more and more. And this is not a rule, um, but it seems like maybe more often than not, these bucks that get old and big are typically smart about how they move around on a landscape, and they like to not again not saying they always do, but it seems like a lot of times they like to have the wind or use the wind in some way. So maybe that means they're moving into the wind or quartering to the wind, or the winds, you know, coming across their face as they head into a food source or when they go into bed. That seems to be something that I'm trying to pay attention to more, and a lot of other guys are too. So this is all to say, as I'm thinking about when you want to when you want to hunt a spot, you want to try to find a way that the wind is seemingly that the deer would want to approach this area because he thinks that he's able to smell it's ahead of him. But also somehow just cut the corner of it with your wind so that he doesn't wind you even though he thinks he's getting into an area safely. And so I'm trying to do Yeah, so it's okay. So one more thing, though, I'm just gonna add one more addendum to this, one little thing, and then I want to hear your thoughts. So that sounds really good. But every time I ever try it, it always seems way easier said than done, because you get a addicted wind of let's say, west southwest wind or whatever. And if if it stays and it really is west southwest, or if it really is west whatever I want, if it's really west, and I set up just perfectly cutting the angle, and I know the buckwell, and I think he's gonna come from just here, it'll be fine. But then so many times you get what they call west wind, but it's west southwest for five minutes, and it's west northwest for ten minutes, and then's due north for thirty seconds, and then it's west for the rest of the time. It's always moving around. You can never get it just seems like to me it's so hard to get a perfectly consistent as forecasted wind. So how do you if this is something you do, how do you think about cutting the corner on a deer being aggressive, but then also knowing like man, mother nature is finicky and it's never quite as you expect, right right, yeah, and those are with all of that, um there, you know I'm not I'm not very sandy. I'm the and all the apps with the winds and all that jazz. Um. I literally go out and check the wind. I have. I love aviation, so I have a wind sock, and I watched the windsock. I watched the tree leaves. And you can't bank on what whatever you know, whatever the phone tells you it's going to be. It is amazing how accurate it is. But that's where it comes down to hunting your home ground. You've got to know that. Okay, when I stepped outside of my house, there's a big woods here, that wind is actually gonna show me southwest. Um. But when I get down uh where I want to hunt, four miles from here, there's a big rolling hill and then there's a hill that comes up heavy on the east, and it seems like when the wind hits that, no matter what the southwest wind is at home, it seems to blow out of the south more because it swirls off that. So it's funny how wherever you are the wind is going to be dictated to the by the surrounding. The corn will change it. So if there's corn up, like I like hunting fields, would edges with the corn up, Um, I can't. I can't hunt some of this stuff. When the corn comes off, it changes the wind. So being a being a wind geek is extremely important and having balls and saying, uh this, I know this deer is gonna be better knowing the ground and knowing like he's gonna be better here. This is how he's gonna come out. Um. And I know that all these little bucks are over here, so I know that this buck is not gonna want to deal with them. He's gonna cut this edge. I'm going for it. Now, you're gonna spook all those little bucks good. I don't want them there anywhere, like I don't. I don't want to deal with them. And there's other times it's like, man, once the deer get past me, they're going to spook. Um, I'm okay with that one time, Like I will do that, just just that time. I'm going to kill him, and I'll kill a lot of deer where it's like, man, I add every day that walks out, they spook and I like try and spook, but I'm literally like shaking my hand like fun, like you know, yeah, and I want them to like leave and go far enough. Wait that buck doesn't see them standing there. And uh, there was one spot in particular that I feel two good deer coming out of this corner and it's literally that it's like every deer that came out, and I'm I'm almost like anxious, like sick to my stomach that I'm spooking these deer until that buck comes out and you can see him chewing his cut and it's like, yes, he has no deer has no idea. I get done, and you almost get this arrogance. I get giddy. I'm literally like he had this deer is done, Like I got it. You are I never say I got it until I got but it's like, yeah, you're not getting out of your lives. It's just like a miracle Um. But that comes with hunting, not just hunting for a long time, but hunting that area for a long time, and hunting having tons of experience and and screwing things up. But when you screw it up, figure out why you screwed it up and what went wrong there, and put it in your put it in your little book of knowledge for next time, and you get enough of those little note it's the odds are in your favor, um. But taking those chances is good, but it has to be calculated. I feel bad, like, now a bunch of people are going to run out, and I know you have a huge podcast following. I'm afraid like a bunch of guys are gonna screw up their ground and hate me. Calculation balancing. There's there's certain times to go for the home run, and then there's a whole bunch of other times where it's better to be safe, Scout glass um. And so so you're right, it definitely comes down to making those calculated decisions. Now, I guess with that in mind, what are the things going on in your head that help you determine should I go for the home run or should I play it safe? Like is it I gotta believe it's probably a mix of what you saw, like the intel you have is maybe a mix of what are the conditions, And then maybe it's a mixture of like how much time do I have or what's the hunting pressure? Uh? Is that right? Are there other things? Yeah? You're on. I mean, at this point in my life, it's like, all right, can I you know, if I see a good like if I see a big one, I am going to be extremely aggressive on that deer because I don't you know, you used to hunt. I mean I would literally hunt every day of the hunting season, you know, years ago. Um, I enjoy it. I just can't do that anymore. And now I look at it. It's like, man, I think about how much time I would rather take two days off work and hunt like a maniac once I find a big one and do as much research and kill him in two days than to take two weeks off like a lot of you guys take two or three weeks off to hunt their home state. And it's like that's ridiculous, Like you should really be able to get this deer killed. I would rather go a hundred and ten percent for a little bit of time to get him killed than to go mediocre. Uh pace and uh and and that has a lot to do with it. Like, you know, if I think he's in a killable spot, I'm definitely going for it. However, there's been you know, Joe had made a phenomenal comment in that previous episode. It was an episode two or something that you had done um about and I won't I'll screw it up, I won't build a quota. But he had made a comment that really struck home with me. And he's like he made a comment about there's a there's a spot in his woods or there's there'll be a spot in the woods that it just has all this great sign there's trails everywhere and there's well up scrapes and it's it's just perfect if I could just get down in there. But I know that's an unhuntable spot. Like you, it's never right there. The entrance and escape is wrong. The wind switches all the time, and they're all you're gonna do is ruin it. Yes, learn that, learn that discipline that this isn't unhunt Like there are spots that you don't try and hunt that don't even put a camera in there. You're just screwing it up. Stay out of that. It might only be a hundred yard radius. Um, nothing is right in there, like you. You can't you can't attack them in there. Let don't let them know that you're in the area. Stay out of that and just hunt the periphery and in and do it right, and you're gonna kill stuff. But people don't do that. They see all this sign and they're like, all, my god, I'm planting to stand in here, and it's like, uh, you just literally ruined this would But the only pid thing for somebody like me is once I see that stand, I know good. This guy just blew all that. He's going to blow these deer out of here. I'm gonna hunt the escape routes and people literally funnel deer for me in all these places I hunt because not that they're stupid, but they're they're not paying attention to the cause and effect of what they're doing. So go ruin the best spot in the woods and then they come. Then they come to me on the escape routes and it's like perfect, and you drill them. Um, so knowing when to go for it, I mean it's kind of like you know when a poker player knows when to make a bluff. I mean, you just gotta know it, and it comes from experience, and you gotta go out there and whatever you do every night, Like I remember right making notes because I think Dwight Chu or somebody had, you know, said that, like he I don't know if it was Dwight, but somebody had written. They wrote down like everything every day's hunt. And I did that for like a year, and then I was like, I've never went back and read any of those notes, but I can remember every hunt pretty much, every wind direction and every I can tell you every deer I've ever shot, how part of the distance was. Like you can't get that stuff out of your mind. And when you have all that recollection, um, it's just knowledge. But don't be afraid to look back on it in your mind and be like, yeah, I don't remember, you know, I remember hunting this and I could never get away with getting in here. Well take that into account, like that should teach you something like every time I go in here, I blowed your out and I've never killed a deer in here. Stay out of there. There are thoughts like that that you can't hunt. And when Joe made that comment. It was like, yeah, this dude the killer. He knows, he knows to stay out of that, and he knows to just let them feel comfortable and let their guard down, and they're gonna get killed. And you know, like I I like the idea that deer are these smart old deer and all this stuff. They're not animals. They have great instincts and are very habitual. Um, a buck is definitely gonna put his nose in the wind, I think. And he's definitely good. He's I mean a lot. How many times have you seen a good buck step into a field but not quite into it. He's still got you know, all the briers and brush standing right in front of him, and he just stands out for forty five minutes and it's like, dude, step out. He's just that's his habit. He's just that's what. He's a lazy buck. And I think he's gotten old because he happens to not like to go out into the field until it's start. He's not smart, he just that's his habit and that habit has gotten mold. So once you figure that, okay, he's gonna come out here, just you figure out how to beat his system, and that's it seems to work. You know, it's just the thought process. A random comment you made a little back a little while back ago. I just want to get a little more information on before we move forward. You were talking about wind and how different local things on your property might change is wind and you've got to know how they all these things impact it. You said that standing corn changes the wind for you, and when the corn comes out that changes things again. How do you see standing corn or corn fields getting cleared change the wind direction. Uh, It's it's not like I could put a science behind it and say, oh, you know, when the corn is up, it it definitely guddens the wind. Or when the corn is up, you know there's this one spot it has this nice rolling hill and um, there's a certain spot down on this hedgerow that whether there's corn or not there there doesn't seem to ever be any wind. It's like this little dead zone. When the corn is up, that spot is huge, like it's a hundred yards You get a hundred yards in there, but when the corn is off, there's like this twenty yard pocket that it just always seems to be dead and just paying attention as I'm walking places like and the wind was just beating me in the back and now it's extremely dead here. I've taken the time to walk back up a hill before and then they're like, yeah, the wind is still blowing hard right here, and then walk back down and it's like it's not blowing hard here. But just observing those little things. Um, there's just different places that I can't explain why it is, but that's how it is. And and I've been observant to know, like the winds is going to do this in this spot when it's when it's doing this when it's a north wind up here, Um, it's gonna be a northwest wind in this spot. And that's a That's actually another thing that I'm a maniac for his odd winds. Man, if I get an east wind, something is gonna die. Like today it was actually an east wind. I have to go check out check the window now, but um it was an east wind. Uh here And may east winds driving wild because there's so many spots that I can't hunt because I really need I set everything up for a southwest wind. But man, when you get an east wind, especially when a deer in my opinion, beds with the southwest wind when he goes in and definitely does put his nose um in the wind, and then all of a sudden the wind changed up. He still wants to go out to where he had planned on going. And if the wind is it his back and he hasn't been pressured bad, he's gonna walk out there. He's still smelling the wind all around him. He's gonna use his eyes and his hearing to make sure that everything ahead of him is okay. He's gonna feel very confident that he's gonna be able to see everything and hear everything, and he's gonna be able to smell everything behind them. So they walk with her. In my opinion, somebody out there is gonna be like, oh, this guy is stupid. They don't walk with their you know knows not in the wind. But I'm here to tell you they walk with her, knows with the wind that they're back. Um. They have wonderful ice fight in wonderful vision. Um. And if I can catch an odd wind like that, something's gonna If there's a big one, I'm gonna that's a great hunting odd wind like And when you hang stand sets if I have a good thicket or something, um, and I know, like, okay, they tend to come out here, they tend to come out there. If I'm pin a deer down, I'll hang a southwest stand for him. But if I can sneak in there and hanging east wind stands, oh man, I will hang on east wind stand and if the soon as the wind changes on in that stand. And that's what I'm actually hoping to get lucky, um and and have a good betting area exposed to me from an angle that I usually can't get in on. And that's so exciting. I get giddy. It's like, man, when there's an east wind, that's why say, oh my god, I can I cannot wait. I hope this doesn't change. Um. But the disciplined level is when you get in that east wind stand and you're in early and everything is good, and then that wind switches and it starts blowing into the bedding grounds, get out, like, don't be that guy that just sits there and then let's just scent blow in there for the next two hours. Just know that the gig is up and get out and recircle and use that night is a is a scouting tool and see what happens, because a lot of guys just sit there and it's like, Nope, the gig is up, get out. And I've done it too. I've sat there and then it's like, ah, I screwed this up. I should have left that. Yeah. Yeah, So you mentioned that you know, lots of times a buck will like to use the wind, but on occasion they will walk with the wind to their backs to get in certain spots. And you've talked about that lots of times. There might be a big old buck that hangs up at the edge of the field. Um, there's certain things you've seen over and over over your years of chasing the biggest holdest bucks around. Are there any other Now? I know these aren't rules, there's nothing like, if there's anything that's true about big mature bucks that they're all different, But are there any other high level trends that you've kind of seen over the years as far as what makes them mature buck different than a young buck, as far as their behavior, what they do any other like key things you're always thinking about and mature bucks probably gonna do this, mature bucks probably going to do that. That helped guide you you know a couple of things. For instance, learn they're not. I mean I would say these big bucks are nocturnal and this and that. Um, I think they're I think they are observant things that, um they don't like to be bothered. And I think that's the big thing that in our we like instant gratification, especially with these trail cameras and stuff. And I think this supplies to like my home state and some of these high pressure states more than it would um in other states. Um going in and out of the woods and screwing them up and driving your four wheeler, um, putting checking your trail cameras, uh even every two weeks. It's like, dude, just stay out of there. Like I literally don't put trail cameras in any I don't really run them too much, but if I do, I literally I don't put them on food sources too much. Like I try and put them, um like where they might cross the road just to see what's in there, because I don't want to screw They know that you're in there, like they if you walk into my house with buddy boots, like I'm gonna know, like Jesus, these aren't my boot tracks like somebody's in my house, and I'm pretty sure when you go walking through their stuff and keep checking stuff, like they're onto that and I've noticed, you know, I'll get a picture of a of a dough profile broadside and then all of a sudden it's looking at the camera, and then all of a sudden it's noses on the camera, and then all of a sudden it's walking away, and it's like, yeah, that that they knew that that cameras They're like, I'm not a big fan of that type of stuff. So that's something I don't know. It's find a little trick to killing big bucks. But the other thing I was gonna say is, um, I can't believe how many people like if if you have the day off and you have the day to hunt and it is hard, but especially during the rut, like do not do not go home? Like hunt all if you're in a good spot and the wind is good and you are out to hunt, especially if it's the rut and you're in a big buck state. Um, I've shot a lot of good deer between eleven and one o'clock. Um, they're on their feet, especially if they're not pressured or they're chasing dose. But um, I can't believe there's a there's actually a swayeping feel by my house and we will see deer at noon. Um, I'll just pop around in this corner and there's this kind of hidden little draw and there's there's just doze out there. There'll be ten does out there in the middle of the day. Hell and people, a lot of times it's like nine o'clock. I'm getting out of my stand and it's like, you might want to sit there till eleven. I would at least push a little bit harder um in in Uh, like, stay off your phone. I'm kind of bad about it too, but I know people, it's like, you gotta be kidding me. There's this one spot I hunt and it's a it's a hedgerow, and then there's this two huge fields behind it, and there's a drainage ditch, and then there's another hedgerow. And I've glass this one guy that hunts a young guy. He hunts this far hedgerow and uh, I glasped. I don't know how many deer come out of his headrow hed his freaking head down in his phone. They all went behind him. I watched it was gun season. I know his kid would have shot everything that moved. He never saw any of those, dude, they couldn't have been thirty yards behind him, but he was on his phone the whole If I would have had a camera, I would have loved to have recorded that. But you know, is there a work like stay focused on your job like work if you're hunting, Like stay focused on the task at hand, and like I get on my phone every now and there, text guys or something, but man like focus on the task at hand. Yeah, that's that's key, and it's easy these days. There's so many opportunities for distraction with us phones in your pockets. So that's good. It's definitely good reminder. I've been I was biting the ass on that one once, So I know what you're saying, ye big buck tips. I mean, that's it's tough to say, like, oh, you know, look for this. But you know one thing you could do is pay attention to how the crops change and how the deer changed to um like guys. You know, guys are uh literally a place I hut. Somebody had a go and heat sent wick out already, and it's kind of like, what are you doing? You know what? I hate to be rude, but it's like that this is not you're gonna kill an immature deer off that it's oddly curious of what this is. And yeah, I think you're gonna tip the deer off that. Okay, some idiots you're already putting sentwis up, so that would be a big buck tip, Like don't do that. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. One kind of off the wall not off the wall topic, but we're kind of pivoting from what we've been talking about here. We've talked a lot about, you know, how to know when to go in for the kill, how to find him, how to glass him up, how to determine how mature buck's gonna behave versus them mature buck. Um. Doing all this stuff, killing a big mature buck every year, all of this takes a lot of energy. It takes a lot of time. I think for a lot of us we can obsess over it. Um, how do you think about that side of your life, being a successful hunter and then balancing your family, because I know you've got a family, You've got daughters, Um, how do you manage those things and try to keep it in balance or or make it all work somehow. Yeah, that's an extremely important Um, that's extremely important point. Uh, in a huge point. And that's the point that I've excelled at extremely well. Anywhere I go, people are like, man, what you know, what does your wife say? Um? And my first of all, don't ever date somebody that is not in the hunting. It's not gonna work. Steps number one. If your girlfriend is complaining, like, just move on, she's never gonna be happy. And and just get it over with. But that's a that's a fact, Like you're if your girlfriend is not like something that you're passionate about, like it's just get it over with. Get There's tons of cool chicks out there, Um, Mary, a good woman would be step one. And uh, that's the biggest step. But that's a great point because I have personally, especially when my kids were little, pushed envelope of ringing myself out like mentally, physically, financially, um where it's not even fun and I haven't I've set myself up for failure. One year in Kansas, I think it might have been the first year, kind of a second year at hunt in Kansas. Um, you know it was a big deal to me to make this work financially, my business that I had just started with tying. I don't know if I had actually started my business. I was broke. Um. We had a brand new baby at home. This tag I don't know how much the tags were then six bucks or something. I mean, six hundred bucks might as well have been like ten grands. Me it was. It was everything to me. Um. The whole trip was exhausting. Um. I was after I found a really good book and I just wore myself out. And I knew that when I got home, like um, money was going to be tight. And my wife never complained, but she was struggling at home trying to take care of the baby and try that you cannot do like I was not ready and I did. I actually missed that deer, but dear that I finally got a shot at. Um. I got screwed on that dear so many times, but by other people, but I ended up getting a shot at this dear. And it was so desperate for me to kill this deer and accomplish the goal that I just I botched something that I'm really like, I'm really good at killing things, like I'm really, I understand when to move, how to move, when to take a shot, when not to shoot. And I did something like the killing part is never a problem problem for me, and I botched it and it came down to not having my home life perfect. Um, when you leave for if you're leaving for a hunt or a punting season is coming, you got to work like a maniac and have money banked so that the heat bill isn't a problem. But the money isn't a problem. You've got a bank. What if you have three thousand dollars a month and build make sure you have six thousand dollars set aside or whatever. It might only be five, but mentally be okay that I'm going hunting and it doesn't matter. M Make sure you have your crap around the house picked up, make sure they law in his mode. Make sure your wife is in a good mood and she's happy, and she's okay that you're going away. Try and I try, And I always say this, like, I try and set up the babysitters and make sure the kids are taken care of and they've got rides from here to there. My wife truthfully kind of does that, but I make sure that she's got it done, you know, because when you call home and she's like, this is not this is a pain in the ass, and I've got to figure out how to get you know, cricket to this practice and our other daughter to that practice. It takes away from your thought process, that's what's important. And a lot of guys take that for granted, including myself. I did that that hunt and that hut like broke me. I hated hunting a three piste just it wasn't I failed, and I don't like sailing. And I remember after that thinking like I'm not gonna put myself in that situation, like if I can't. I didn't go the next year because I couldn't have word too and I just worked like a maniac. And now when I go hunting, I got If the money isn't set aside and my wife isn't happy and things aren't taken care of, I don't need to go. And it's a good feeling because like I have, like I have more good animals killed than probably anybody deserves to have in a lifetime already. So I could hang up my hat from hunting and have a just a phenomenal do it yourself career. People will be like, Wow, that's amazing. So if I don't get one, it's not a big deal. But the pressure is off, and it's really good to take the pressure off yourself. I don't like killing big stuff. I don't want to go somewhere and not kill something. But if I don't, it's not a big like I'm not I'm not worried about it. I really enjoy the It sounds corny, but I enjoyed the journey now, you know, when I was younger, it was more of the destination. I had to show success. And having a good wife and a stable, happy kid makes me mean that's huge. Like if my kids are on the phone, I mean, in a couple of times, they've been like Daddy, come home. You know, especially Elconi, They're like come home. And it's like, oh, you're breaking my heart. But I'm not afraid to tell them either. Listen, Daddy works hard. I work hard for you, and this is a big I love this stuff. I want you to be proud of me, and I wants you to cheer for me. I don't want to hear you just crying. You're a good kid, and I do everything I can do to make you happy. This makes me happy. And someday, when you're old enough, you were coming with me. Okay, so be happy for me. Don't be crying on the phone. Tell me you're proud of me, and tell me to kill big things. And my girl kids will be like, Daddy, you kill a big one, you know, and they're great. And now they're old enough that that they don't even need that speech, like they're they're cheering for me, and uh, that is just that's the best. You know, that that's how it has to be. But it always wasn't always that way. You know. I strung myself out like anybody. So when you get your ducks in a row, um, that's huge. If your girlfriend is complaining or you know, if you have a girlfriend and she's bitching and complaining about that, I would literally just say, look, here's the deal, something I really care about. If there's something you really care about, I will support you and help you do it. But don't bring me down complaining about something I'm passionate about. It's never gonna change. So get that out of the way before you go dating somebody, no matter what it is. If you're in the cars or whatever, like somebody's complaining about something you love, like you might want to change directions. Yeah, yeah, that's that's some wise, some wise words to have at the front end of the relationship. I'm gonna end up. Everybody's gonna end the over pressure in their deer because they're gonna go for the deer's throw and they're gonn end up breaking up with your girlfriends. Podcast, so contact you're putting together, we're gonna we're gonna title this one the home record with Jesse Coots. Yeah, yeah, that could be true. However, the funny thing is I call at the big animals and I have a wonderful family life. So there again, it works for me, it might for you. This is what works for me. Yeah, all my buddies here, this this is they're gonna be like a shocker. So so we gotta wrap this one up, Jesse, because I need to go run a couple of errands for my family and then run out into the woods. Um, do you have any final last uh, any final last words or things you want to share with the folks before we sign off here? Yeah, you know, so we didn't. I didn't get a big itinerary shoot from me. And I wasn't sure. I sat down before and I'm like, what are the important things to me that if you want to um, if you want to kill big deer and I were a couple of things down and we didn't touch base on and one of the things I was gonna say, if you want to kill big deer, like we had said, you gotta hunt where big deer are, um. And once you're hunting where big deer are, do not shoot little deer. You will never kill big deer. Even if you're like, wow, I didn't get one this year, Stop shooting little deer. If you shoot little dear, be happy that you're shooting little dear. Don't cry that you're not shooting big deer. And I think the biggest tip a guy could have if he, especially a young guy, well anybody, if you really want to get good at hunting and killing big deer, you have to learn to be a killer. UM. I think you should start out. I mean, while I was a kid, I was very fortunate that my parents weren't around much. UM. I had BB guns and bow and arrows and flame shots. Sparrows were not safe. Woodchuck's, I mean, the neighbor's horse farm paid me to shoot every woodchuck. Um. I learned how to sneak up on stuff, I learned how to move. Being a killer is probably the biggest asset you can have. UM. And if you know, a lot of guys are like, oh, you know what, I've shot tender with the bow, and it's like that is not that's great, but you need to kill tenderer tend dough a year with the bow. And there were years where I would get uh in my home state has liberal freaking dough tags and I got tons of dote and just shot the daylights out of him for fifteen years. After I killed ten deer a year, and and then you hunt other states. I mean, by the time I was done, I was killing fifteen or twenty deer a year with a bow. That makes you so confident and so good at hunting, um that when the pressure of a big buck is on, this is something you've done two hundred times, Like this is not a big deal. I'm got to flipping arrows to his bucks chest. And when he gets to this pocket, I know when to move and when not to move. And if he gets through that pocket, I don't care because I know I'm going to shoot him quarter in away when he gets the bat pocket. Whereas when you don't have that experience on your belt, everything's a panics. So if you really want to be a a good hunter, um, hunt wood chucks with the bow and arrow, hunt rabbits with the bow and arrow, shoot as many does, don't shoot and even gun season, I shoot him with the bow and arrow. Um, just become proficient with the bow and arrow and shoot everything that moves. Meanwhile, drive past a horse passer and look at horses. It sounds morbid, but I literally look at every angle and figure out how it's shoot that force. And you have to have that mindset. And it sounds evil, but like everything is a target and you're not thinking that way, you're you're out of the groove. And uh, if you can get nuisance permits, or you can get if your state allows transferable dotags, get as many doughtegs as you can. And before you try and really kill big bucks, like kill everything in your path. Learn to be a good hunter and hunt and kill everything. And I really think you should become I cut all my own deer. Um. I know a deer's body inside and out. I know if I hit him here exactly what organ is there and what tendon is there, and what the cause and effectives. I think that stuff really matters. It matters to me. It's helped me a ton um for it will be some of my my other tips is be a murderer, be a killer. I know it's it's not correct to say that you should harvest deer, but I don't harvest them. I kill things like that's I kill things and I butcher it, and I put it in my freeer and I feed my family. I I've over seen anything. I'm killing deer, uh. And I think to be a proficient big buck killer you have to learn how to kill everything. That's what you're saying. That was my pointer on that. But but I could go on all day, and I really appreciate you having me on them. I'm honored to be on. I vote. I'm not really a podcast guy, but I've heard so many good things since I was on your last time. I had no idea what a wonderful uh podcast this is and how highly people think of you and your podcast across the country. So I'm honored to be on it and be a part of it. Well, thank you Jesse. I I really appreciate it too, and I think, uh, you share a lot of things that will help folks, and you don't mince words, and yeah, a few people might not like that, but I think a lot of people will appreciate one from you too, and that's a that's a cool thing. So thank you for that, and good luck with the rest of your two thousand hunting season. You got it, my friend. Thank you, and keep in touch. I'm sure we'll, uh, we'll catch up again. I'll call you a night after I shoot that big one. All right, I'm looking forward to my friend. And if you don't shoot him, call me and tell me where he wasn't. We were literally hash this out, and that's what's cool about having a great hunting circle on. I've called friends and my dude, this buck is doing this, this and this, and every year cyber six people call me and be like, hey, I'm gonna send you a topograph of Matt. This is where that bucket is. Like what should I do? That's fun. It's a lot of fun. Yeah exactly, Yeah, yeah, for sure, dude, we'll bust of luck. Keep it, keep it touch my friend, and call me anytime. Thanks. Jesse. All right, that's gonna do it for us today. I hope you enjoyed this one. You can foul along with all of our future episodes by subscribing to this podcast. Make sure you are also subscribed to the meat Eater YouTube channel. You're gonna see our new videos over there. We just dropped this week a new episode of the Back forty video series, so check that out to see the progress for making on that property. If you're not also, I'm gonna keep on hitting me up with some subscription ideas here. If you're not subscribed for white Tail Weekly, that's our newsletter coming from meat either where you can get updates on all of our new white Tail content coming out from the team there. Make sure you had to v meat eater dot com to do that as well. That will also give you an opportunity you'll find out how to win a hunt with Steve and I on the Back forty. So lots of cool stuff coming up. You can find it all over the media to your website and until next time, good luck out there hunting. Stay tuned for a lot more interesting stuff from us here, and stay wired to hunt