00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. In this episode number two and today's show, we put together possibly the greatest panel of saddle hunters in the history of podcasting to cover everything you need to know to become a saddle hunter. And now let's get to the show. And as I mentioned, we have an incredible roundtable of saddle hunters here today to cover everything from the basics of saddle hunting right up to the expert level tricks and tips and next level stuff, I think, more comprehensively than we've ever done before. In the show, we cover everything you could possibly need to know to get going with a saddle. And you'll hear me say this in the interview here in a few minutes, but I want to reiterate it here at the top. I think you guys have noticed that I'm not big on pushing gear. Hopefully over the years you've noticed that I'm not hammering you guys about needing this product or needing this one, or name dropping this brand or that brand. I really don't like doing that very much because just personally, when I'm consuming or listening or watching other hunting media, I find it really annoying when of the people are doing that, So I try to avoid that as much as possible. But in some cases, when I really am like very very interested, very excited, really jacked about something, I do think it's worth sharing. And this is one of those cases where, like, I truly, honestly am so personally excited about how saddle has changed my own hunting that I just can't help but share it with you guys and try to get some information out there for you guys, because I really do think this is an option that can help a lot of people, and based off the feedback and questions I've been getting over the last year since I first started talking about saddle hunting and using it myself, it seems like there's a lot of interest and intrigue out there from you guys too, so helping us cover off on all things saddle hunting, we have the d i Y deer hunting Guru and my good buddy Andy May. We have the godfather of saddle hunting and legendary Michigan bow hunter John Eberhardt, and we have super long time saddle hunters and now manufacturers of the Tethered brand saddle, Greg Godfrey and Ernie Power to round out the crew. So, without further ado, I welcome you to the Ultimate And just let me take this back. Imagine I didn't say that, and now just imagine this in an announcer's voice, like like a WWF announcer's voice, and I can't do it, So I'm not gonna do a good job here. But just imagine maybe Joe Rogan UFC announcers saying, welcome to the Ultimate Attle Hunting Roundtable. Boom boom boom. I'm so weird. I hope you guys enjoyed this one. All right, welcome to the Wired Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X. We're doing another one of those mobile podcasts, and it's particularly titled. When I say mobile podcast, I'm actually talking about the fact that we are recording this in a mobile studio. We're in a hotel or more of a suite. I guess he would say. We're a suite in south central Michigan, and I'm joined by an all star cast of mobile hunters saddling. We have from left or right. We got Ernie power from Tethered. How many years of saddle hunting experience do you have, Ernie, I over ten. But I'd have a hard time pinning it down, I really would. I just it's just something that I did and never kept track of until I joined the forum. And you know, I could go back and find like when I started on the form and when I started talking there. But as far as when I started saddle hunting, I was kind of doing it before I knew what saddle hunting was. I was a tree charmer for a bunch of years, and I just saw the advantage of using my work equipment for deer hunting. I didn't know saddle hunting was a thing at the time. I was just like, I spent so much time in a tree anyways, this is an easy way to get in and I don't have to carry a tree stand. And but back then, I mean I was, well, John will hate this, But I was hunting with the same equipment that I trimmed trees in, so it was soaked in gas and oil. It was full of metal banging, you know, metal carabeaners and clips and whatever. But I was primarily rifle hunting, so I could sit on a field edge and and watch the other side of the field and being pretty good shape at that point, UM, my sent control regiment had a lot to be desired. So the short answer to that is a long time saddle hunting. There you go, exactly, Andy May is our next all star. How many years in the saddle do you think you've been running? I started using a saddle probably two thousand three, two thousand fours when I when I first started, um, and then it's kind of been on and off since then, Um, due to just finding one that fit me best. You know, UM, definitely saw the value in just couldn't find the right fit for me until recently. But yeah, two thousand three, two thousand four of when I started. Our third guest has been running a settle longer than I think I might have been alive. John, how long? John Eberhard here, how long have you been using the saddle? For thirty eight years? You've been using a saddle longer than I have been a lot right there, started the first year they came out onto the market. You've been preaching the gospel or since I would never consider hunting out of anything else. What does it feel like to you today when you see this thing that you've been telling people about for years and years and years, saying you gotta try to sell Yeah, I try, Yeta try. No one was listening. No one's listening now. It's really the thing. It's quite buzzy right now. Everyone's trying it. Is it? Is it one or two things for you? Is it number one? Very uh fulfilling ingratiating that you finally finally got it. You feel like you finally did your job. People caught on? Or is it? These mastards are just like jumping on the train now. It's like being a Golden State Warriors fan. I've been I've been talking about this forever. No, it's it's the first one. I've been preaching it forever all three of my books. I've got a chapter to go to the saddle Honti each of my books. But as much as I tried to promote it, I wasn't very good at promoting it. And then Greg and Ernie great God for your and Ernie power from Tethered they got into it last year, jump both feet in and they have marketed it correctly. And they're the ones I credit the whole buzz to you know, Trophy Line. When even when Trophy Line came out with errors in the late nineteen nineties, you know, and then through the mid two thousand, you know, at two thousand and eight, I think is when they went out of business somewhere there. They just didn't market it very well. It just didn't catch on. Now, these guys, with social media the way it is today and Greg being a master at social media and Ernie being a master at engineering and getting things right, they're the ones that have brought it to where it's at. There is no way on God's green Earth, saddle hunting and the cult following it almost has right now would not be there without these two guys. So I credited them, and that brings us to our last man at the table, Greg Godfrey from Tethered. How long have you been rocking saddle? I have been rocking a saddle since two thousand nine, so right at this will probably be my tenth year. Tenth season. Yeah, this season, I've been doing it for one year. So so what I'm gonna do here is mostly just shut up and listen, because I've learned a lot in my one year. But I have realized there's lots and lots and lots more out there, and there's so many questions right now around saddle hunting because it's now becoming a thing that people have heard about. Now they are intrigued by it. More and more people are jumping on board and saying, hey, it actually works, it's actually pretty awesome. And so now there's all these all these additional questions, Well, tell me about this, tell me about that, What about this situation? What about that scenario? Is it gonna work for me? It couldn't work for this. Today, I'm hoping with this collection of people, we can drill into all those commonly asked questions. We can get in this next level pro tips from some of the most experienced people out there. Um And I don't think we have to do this given where we are today in the last couple of years, how far it's come along. But I still think we need to make a little bit of sales pitched as far as why should I consider a saddle So for each one of you, I'm curious one reason, like your top reason you can think of for why it's worth using a tree sale John Go, mobility, Andy Uh, decrease in bulk ernie. Um, I'm gonna say tree selection explain just a tiny bit um. I'm able to set up with a saddle and trees that I would walk away from in a normal tree stand, um, you know, and in a climbing if you're carrying a climbing tree stand, you're looking for the tree that works for your climbing tree stand. If you're carrying, you know, any kind of a lock on, you're looking for something that works for that. And with the saddle, I think it just opens up my doors a lot more. Um. One of my favorite types of trees would be a big gnarly oh that that starts out, you know, three or four ft across at the base, goes up seven ft, goes into a branch and a whole bunch of branches, and you can't get a climber in that tree. It's just not happening. You can get a lock on in there, but by the time you climb up to your lock on height and try and pull that lock on up through the branches and try and get it up there, you're making a just a nightmare of noise and uh. For me, it was just having that diversity of tree um. Well then and I just think it's more fun. It's the other thing, but um yeah, the the ability to hunt any tree instead of hunting for the tree that works with your equipment. Man, it's hard to pick one, but I would have to piggyback off what Andy said with the low bulk also the low weight. I mean they kind of go hand in hand. So if I had to pick another one, I'd probably say safety. But but for me, it was always the pursuit of the most ultra light efficient system I could possibly find. So if I had to pick one, I'd say weighty. Have experienced all those things since finally trying one, And I'll add one more thing, which is the fact that it can be a huge cost savings. Because I just went through my first off season with a saddle, and so usually most offseasons I'd be like, all right, I need like four more tree stands, gotta get another couple more sets, and I gotta upgrade my my portable stand or whatever. This year, I was like, oh, I'm prepping like fifteen new trees and I don't need a single tree Stand's gonna climb up my saddle, climb on down. I'm good to go. Nobody can steal it either. No, that's a that's something that at least I didn't think about as much on the front end, but this year was like, all right, I'm on board with that. I think, well, it's kind of like at the front end with costs, it can be a little daunting because if you were to go and look at everything you can buy, and if you're looking at it from a mobile perspective, and you're factoring in sticks and just saddle and then then all this other stuff can go with it, it can get up there pretty quick. But like you said, you buy once and cry once and then you're done when you're dumb. I'm hunting out of the same saddle for the last thirty eight years, so I'm gonna switch this this season. But I pointed out of the same exact one for thirty eight seasons, and probably six to seven different trees would prop during that time, I would say, And so your only additional cost every year is just like two two thousand tree pegs. That's that's actually a new hammer. But there's a lot more advantages. If I don't know, if you want to get into more advantages, we'll certainly get into a more Yeah, what else do you have, John, let's keep talking. Let's keep talking. Well, to go a little bit on what Ernie said. You know, it's when you're hunting a destination location. Typically with a tree stand, a lot of times you have to set up off the side of a destination location and sit on one or two runways that feed a destination spot, like a primary scrape area or white oak or apple tree or something. Whereas with a saddle, there's rarely a situation where there's not a tree at a destination spot that you can hunt. So that's one thing you can hide behind the tree us the tree as a buffer, especially at a destination area where you're gonna have multiple dolls and some fawns, maybe some subordinate bucks hanging out at an apple tree or at a white oak tree or some sort of a food location. Uh. You know, with a tree stand, you're kicked off to the side of the tree somewhat so you have a shot to that destination spot, whereas in the saddle, you is the tree as a buffer between you and the destination spot, so they can't see it. The drunks between you and the animal, and you just peek around to the corner and then when you get an opportunity to take the shot you want, you just slightly lean to your side and you take that shot and nobody. You know, public land hunting, nobody can hunt your spot when you're not there. You know, theft is one thing that nobody can hunt. Your tree stand when you're not there either, because it's with you. Um, there's just and safety. It's definitely safer than any tree stand out there because you are tethered to the tree from the moment you leave the ground til you put your feet back on the ground. I feel like that's one of those things. Though from the outside there's a lot of questions. I get so many questions, like you actually feel safe in that thing that looks sketchy, just like it's so so small, it's strang your waist. It seems less I mean, I think from an outsider of you, having not tried it, it just seems less comfortable to what we're used to versus just standing on a metal platform with a seat and you're wearing a full harness. Just so different. But once you actually try it, you realize, I don't know, I don't know how I could fly. I couldn't jump out of my saddle if I wanted to know. And another thing that I always like to point out is the difference in intent from the way you use them. So in a tree stand, your safety harness, first of all, if you wear one, your safety harness is designed to catch your fall. You've fallen, and then hopefully that thing catches you well. With the saddle, the difference and intent is that it's designed to prevent your fault. The difference in in catching and preventing is maybe subtle, but big at the same time, because if you fall from a tree stand, you know, if you have a tree stand harness, now it's hopefully saved you, and now you're dealing with self rescue. And there are lots and lots and lots of cases where people have gotten injured. And I believe John you probably know this more better than anyone, but I think there's even some cases where people have died from suspension trauma due to safe uh tree stand safety harness is Now obviously that's like the worst of the worst case scenarios, so it wouldn't be fair to focus on that, But it's also dishonest if you don't recognize that that threat is there. Whereas from a saddle. The worst thing that can happen is you could really flip upside down, maybe if you were doing some seriously acrobatic stuff, and then you know, you just have to pull yourself back up right. But the difference between preventing a fall and catching a fall is big. I imagine some serious bruises and pokes and scratches would be evidence of that too. I've I've yet to have to test the safety harness, but I always wondered, like that can't be a comfortable thing to fall, even even though you just follow two feet or something, swinging and bang against the true and maybe you hit your maybe you hit your ladder, maybe hit your climbing spikes, maybe you hit something. I believe you pinch some stuff that would be good. No, this is some fun. So so all that's to say, you're bringing us back to launch, bring us back to the lunch. I really just always started the conversation earlier. Today. You guys can just imagine how our conversations start here at lunch. Um. But all this is to say is that this is something This, this conversation we're about to have is something worth listening to. I've been kind of hammering for the last year. John's wand hammering it for decades. UM. This thing is legit. The whole saddle hunting idea really has been a light bulb moment for me personally. And there's I avoid talking about gear as much as possible because there's so many people out there in the hunting world who are talking about gear and pimping this product or pimping that product, and it just it's overwhelming. It's too much, it's annoying. Almost all of us just paid for And so because of that, even like companies that work with I don't do like hard talks about them a whole lot. I'll use it, I'll share my experiences, but I don't do hard sells at all. UM. This has been one of those products that ever since I started using saddle last year, that I actively have been excited to be like, hey, guys, I'm doing you a favor by telling you this is something worth looking at like it really is, UM. And so that's why I'm excited that we're all here together to get some really next level perspectives. I think we should cover some of the entry level questions. Still, we've talked about them before. I've done videos. John's done of a jillion interviews about them. We've all talked about the beginner stuff, but it's worth covering still and then we'll kind of work our way into that next level stuff. So at a high level, maybe maybe Greg, maybe maybe anyone wants to jump in here can kick us off with what are like the starter must have items, because I get a lot of questions right now, which pieces do I actually need, Like in the case of what you guys have a tether, there's a whole bunch of different accessories options, you can get the kit, you can do al kart, Um, what do I need to be dangerous and actually get out there? So at the at the outset, you've got to have a saddle, obviously, and there's a there's a handful of companies really only two or three right now that are making a commercially available product. Um, you don't have to buy my saddle. Uh, it's a good one, but you don't have to buy it. There's other ones out there. But you need a saddle, you need something to do to put your feet on, and you need a couple of ropes. Like John mentioned at the beginning, you're tethered to the tree from the ground to the two hunting height, but that takes a couple of different ropes. We use two rope systems. One we call a Lineman belt, which is a climbing assist rope. And then once you get to the top of your climbing method, you know, whatever you choose to use, whether it's screwing steps or freaking railroad crazy nails like John uses, or if you're using lone wolf sticks or helium six or whatever it is you choose to use to climb the tree. Once you get to the top and you've used your Lineman belt to climb, now you've got to tie yourself into the tree. We call that rope a tether. So at the end of the day, you're gonna need a saddle, you're gonna need a Lineman belt, you're gonna need a tether, and then you're gonna need something to rest your feet on. And you can do a million different You can do that a million different ways. I mean, just sitting around this room, we've probably tried fifty different ways to use for a platform. John loves his steps. I love a platform, um Mark. I know you've used a platform and probably some steps to same for you, Andy, and Ernie's used them all. I mean, I've stood on branches, I've stood on two hops of climbing sticks, so there's no shortage of things to do with your feet. But those are the four things that I think you absolutely must have. A saddle, a platform of some sort, and in a couple of ropes. Beyond that, it's just what works for your setup. Do you want pouches? Do you not want pouches? Do you want a way to hang your stuff in your in the tree? You can go that, you can go down the rabbit hole as far as you want with that. But just from a base perspective, I think you need about four things. So then what are the next level? A little accessories or things that you guys used. Because I've always kept pretty simple, I stick to just that. I don't like anything else up there with me. But I know a lot of people add things or take things and modify their saddle setups or different things like that. When you're going up there in the tree. What else? What if anyone, if there's anything else from does hop in with? Yeah? For me, uh, one of the the best things. I have a pretty bad lower back. I had a herniated disk and I got some pretty significant disc of generation. So, UM, sitting in a traditional tree stand is pretty uncomfortable for me no matter what it is, even like the summit climbers. Um. But with the saddle, um, you know, tethered makes uh this item called a backband, and it's just this really kind of small strap doesn't weigh anything, fits fits right in the little pouch on the side of the saddle. But UM, what that does is it gives me something to lean into and uh it it relieved. It puts my my lower back into a little bit of extension, which relieves the pressure on my disk. So it actually made a system that's much more comfortable for me to sit in for long periods all day, even if I need to UM. So that that for me, in particular, it was huge, Um, you know, just just keeping me out there longer, and and and you know, I'd sit all day in a tree stand, but I'd start to to fiddle, and I'd stand and sit and stand and sit because I just couldn't stay comfortable. So for me, that's a big one. Anything else guys grew in steps for me, I just use those cheap little one dollar screwing or bow holders. I'm talking about, not stuff bowling gun holders. They've been fined at the front register of any sporting good star. I usually use a Cranford one to get the whole started because a lot of times those real cheesy tense ones break. So I always started with a Cranford screwing gun and bowl holder because they're made out of really hard steal. And then I put the cheap ones in there and I leave those, but I'll put one of them to my left. You know, a lot of these guys are using these screwing bow holders where they fold and stuff and put. You know, that's nice if you're in a tree stand, because you need it to have it reach out in front of you. But when you're facing the tree, all you need is a little, tiny, little screwing bow holder right to your side. And then I always screw one in on the back side of the tree as well, so if I want to move around to the back side for a shot on the opposite side of the tree, I move my bow over to that and then I can move around my steps to the backside. And then I also use one inverted to upside down that I hang my backpack because I carry all my accessories in my backpack. And as far as it's just sending the tree, uh as you know what Greg was talking about a minute ago. You know you need you need a saddle, you need a lineman bell, you need a tree tether. Those are have to have and a platform or steps for your ring. But as far as the sending the tree, you use the same exact things you'd use to ascend on a hang on, so that would be no different As far as getting up to that. You talked about your backpack. What kind of different setups do you guys all bring to carry in over your gear. I've seen a lot of different people do this different ways and in a number of folks asking you know, how much gear do I have taken? How big of a setup do I need? What do you run? Earnie? Uh So, I hunt a lot of different weathers, um So I have different backpack setups based primarily on how much clothing I have to carry. Um in September, I don't need much the smallest backpack I can get away with and still carrying my stuff. But I'm a gadget guy. I still have too much stuff in the tree by most people's uh rules. But this year I'm I'm gonna be actually doing something new. We've got a new backpack that's primarily made for our predator platform. Um. And then the other thing I'm gonna be using a lot is in the past, I would always put a screw and holder to hang my backpack on the side of the tree. Um. We've got a new accessory gay or holder that are that our predator pack marries up too nicely. And the nice thing about that is I can pack for an early season hunt with my platform, with my climbing method and uh a kill kit, and the whole thing slips on my back. And then when I get to my tree, I hang that accessory hanger and then hang the predator pack. Well, at that point, the predator is no longer in it. So I've got a big dump pouch right in front of me. I love my pouches on my hips for my phone or whatever, but all my stuff that I need access to is gonna be right there in front of me. Uh. In that deal. As the weather gets worse and worse, my backpack gets big here. And primarily it's because I don't like to put my clothes on until I'm actually already been in the tree for an hour or so. Um, I get up there, I'm cold, all right, at least I'm hot. And then I wait till I start to get cold before I put those layers on. And so I need a way to carry all that clothing with me, have it in the tree, and then when it comes time, you know, slowly start piecing those on. So yeah, I mean, I don't like to carry more than I have to, but I have to carry a lot as it gets colder. So what about when you're going into hunt and how you're carrying all of your all of your stuff. And so the way I run it and I'm not very efficient. There's some guys who've got a really efficient system. I wish I was more like that. I do not have an engineering or gear mind, so I always am like a fumbling idiot, even when I try to like fine tune I'm doing it. You gotta be quieter, gotta be smarter, gotta be like slow as fast and fastest or was as fast as slow or slow as smooth. And that's what I'm going for. There you go, that's the thing I'm looking for. Um, I see, I flow it up even from the outset that said. I go in there and I usually throw my ropes in like two cargo pockets in this side of my pant, and then I got the platform on just inside my backpack, and I get my sticks on the outside of the backpack, and I'm wearing the saddle sneaking in the tree. I put the first stick up, and then I take a step up, throw the second stick up, and then I tie on my Before I do that, I would I would tie my pull rope to my platform at the bottom of the tree and my bow, and then I climb up with my lambman's belt, finish everything off, gets up, then pull up the platform, then pull up the bow and on some all set blah blah blah um. But I probably take too many trips up or too many trips down, or too many things going here and there. I've talked to some people who have got that nailed how they do it in a really quick efficient way. Who here has got the best efficient method for going in with a full setup like that. I think we probably all are pretty efficient. But man, I'm I I would oh myself if I had to take multiple trips up and down the tree. Hunt in southeast Georgia where it is degrees in November. So I have to be efficient and I have to be lightweight. And when I'm climbing with sticks, I'll climb a bunch of different ways. But on public land, I'll climb with sticks and I take one trip up the tree. So first stick goes on obviously on the ground. Uh, second one and third one get connected to my hips on left and right. And how are you connecting torps? I use little rubber gear ties like those night Eyes night Eyes rubber gear ties. Yeah, a lot of guys will make little loops of para cord that just fit over you know, the cleat of your climbing stick. You loop it in there. You can do it that way. There's there's several ways to do it. I used something on your settle. Then them onto one of the little molly hoops. The molly loops right there on the saddle. It's that's what they're there for. Um, go up. Second stick goes on off the left hip, Third stick goes on off the right hip. So now my hips are clear. Pull up my or hang my platform just like you do. UM and then climb on tether pull bow up, hang it done. I can go from the ground to completely set up. If I didn't bring camera gear, it takes me an extra few minutes to set up all my camera gear. But if I didn't bring camera gear, I could be set up in most trees. Unless it's really gnarly like Ernie was talking about, there's not many branches, not many splits, five or seven minutes from start to finish, from wound to tomb, from tip to tail. And best ascension method in your opinion for mobile like going in there with nothing like a pair of sticks both of the time, or what's your favorite? My favorite method isn't necessarily looked at nicely on certain properties. Um, hands down. If I have a choice, I'm using my spurs. Oh yeah, if I have the availability to use for there's no way to beat it. Um, Because then I don't care. I'm never gonna run out of sticks. I'm never gonna have to take more than one trip. I put my spurs on, I walk up to where I want to be, set my platform, stand on the platform, take my spurs off. Now I've seen this guy climb a tree and spurs multiple times. Now he can be up a tree thirty ft high. You pick the height in thirty seconds and you won't hear him make a sound. He did it for a living. Yeah, I mean he's that efficient with it. I'm not that efficient with it, but I'm pretty efficient taking my time, going slow, trying to be super safe with my set of spurs. I can you know ninety seconds, I can be up at hunting height and I promise you from ten feet away, you wouldn't have heard me make a sound. So it is hard to be But like Ernie said, it's not always legal. So when it's not legal, I I prefer to use sticks, and this year I'm running Hawke Helium st X, but I cut them down substantially. They come with a set of three. I cut them down to twenty two inches to where it's just a set of two. Uh, it's just two sticks for bulk. Like like Andy said, I don't like I'm small. I'm only five ft seven, so I don't like having the sticks on my back extend way up above my head or down below my butt. So I cut them down for um, basically for bulk. But then I also use climbing aids because again I'm I'm only five seven, so I don't have long legs like you. Unfortunately, my little smurf legs can only go so high, so I gotta use climbing aids to give me that little bit of extra umph so I can get to you know, twenty to twenty two ft depending on the tree, with only three climbing sticks. You can explain what you mean by aids and how you do that. So the aids they come from. The rock climbing world is nothing that we invented. It's not a new thing. I've been around for decades. But it's essentially a webbing ladder um and how how many rungs on the ladder can really depend Like some guys I know, like uh, they only use one, so they'll just have one eighter coming down off. And it's essentially a step and an extender made out of climbing rated webbing. I use a set of three, so I have three wrungs on my eighter and it hangs off my stick, so one to three and you CONNECTI I connect it ump around looped around the top of the stick, so I can take it up with me as I climb. So for me a short guy, when I tie my stick onto the tree, I'm at right about seven foot, so I get about seven ft per stick. That's pretty huge way sayings when you figure most guys, if you're using a standard lone wolf stick that you went to Cabella's and bought, you know, it's a thirty two inch stick, and you know, depending on how tall you are, you can only space that thing, you know, eighteen inches to two ft apart. So you're not getting more than about fifteen feet max with that scenario. So now if you're if you're willing to to learn and try new things, you know you can add these little things onto your your products and make a much more efficient So when I first started, I was climbing with five muddy pro sticks and it sucked and and I hated it. So I had to figure out a better way. And I mean I didn't figure out climbing eighters, but I discovered it and I love them. Now I won't use climbing sticks without them. Mine's even a little different. Um. In your modification video where you made your hockey liium cut downs, you moved the bottom steps. I just caught it off right there. Oh wow, that's really short. Well, I got the in Siam of a beagle. So it's like, I really can't take a high step, and so I use a five step eight or and a really small stick, um, because that's the only way I can pull it off. And I when I cut that stick down right at the bottom of that second step, it's barely wider than my hips walking in. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, So you're getting all your height from the aider. Yeah. Yeah, I mean if I could find a way to attach the aid without the stick, that made sense. I do that, right, hasn't when tried, like the wild Edge steps or any other things along those lines of just different styles, any pros and cons or thoughts on those. I've tried about every step, everybody's I've been sent just about everything ever made on steps and the wild Edge are just too bulky for me, you know, you to give I'm a I'm typically thirty feet up to my feet, So wild Edge, did you get to that height? You gotta you know, you gotta have a dozen of them at least. And that's a lot of bulk to me. Everything is about bulk when you're not in public land and you're bucking brush to get back to places, sticks and all that stuff. To me, don't get it. So everything for me is in a backpack, and if if I'm d I y in it. I'll have a Fannie pack, a three pocket fanny that's worn. My My saddle is actually in my backpack, rolled up about size of a softball. And then I wear a back or a fan any pack below my backpack, and it's got steps in it were either rope or strap ons or screwings demanding on public or private, and I'll just spin it around. I'll hook up my lineman belt for my saddle, put saddle on, put the lineman belt on, and hooked up the lineman belt. And as I go up the tree, just put the steps in as I'm going up. And one thing I wanted to touch on on what Ernie said that's really important about saddle hunting is dressing in the tree. You know, you mentioned you deal with weather. I'm in Michigan, so I deal with weather a lot too. And on an all day hunt, it's not uncommon for me to change out my upper layer of clothing for possibly five times a day. You know, early in the morning, I with my entry, I want to go in light, So I'm going in light as soon as my body cools off, which is still gonna be before daylight. Because I get this so early. My body cools off. Then I put on some layers. Maybe ten o'clock the sun comes up. I started overheating a little bit. I take off a layer. Well, with a tree stand with a safety harness hook to the back of your jacket, you gotta take all that stuff off. To change any layers. With the attle, you just simply slide it down your waist a little bit and now your whole upper body is totally free and it's really simple to change your clothing count. Yeah, that's a big deal, and that's a very good point. Now the lower body, same challenge, I guess, as you would have with a tree stand safety harness. Yeah, but typically it's your upper body that always has issues. You can moderate mostly with that. So yeah, what what about what other things? So we talked about the basic gear we need to be dangerous. We talked about the basic ways to get up and down. And I guess, Andy, do you have any different thing as far as how you're getting up and down? You use sticks most of the time, right, Um? Yeah, if I'm on public land, I run a set up like Greg, I have some modified Hawk heliums that I really like. With just a single loop movable eight or that I go, you know, as I climb, I move it with me um and then if I'm on like a permission piece or something, I usually use the Cranford screw in stuffs just in a little pouch and seemed to go in real easy. And I've been using those. I think I got the idea from you, John, like I don't know, fifteen years ago, and I've been running those ever since. Hard to argue with that. It's hard to beat him, Yeah, it's hard to beat him. So, yeah, if you've got time to to use the hand drill and go with bolts, that's probably the least bulk method that I know of. It takes a little bit of time to run the drill. But man actually practiced with that last night. Um, with the tree hopper drill and bolts. And yeah, so I sent you one. What do you think? Yeah, I do love the bulk of it, the lack of um. You know, you could fit that in just a little tiny pouch. It was a little more time consuming, not even a little it was. It was quite a bit more time consuming than say Cranford screwing. Um, but you make up like going up the tree, it is, but you make up a little bit coming down. You just pull those babies out. You don't really have to unscrew anything. So I'm gonna I'm gonna try it this year and see how I like it. Um It definitely I can see some benefit there. Whether I'm going to prefer it over the Cranford's, I don't. That's to be determined. I guess one nice thing about that too, though, is if you're gonna use the bolts system, you can go in in August with a cordless drill and pre drill all your holes. Then when you come back, it's just a matter of dropping the bolts in on the way up, pulling them out on the way down. And you can pre set fifty trees and have one set of bolts. So now your time for setup is nothing because you did it all preseason. And when we say bolts, what we're talking about For those that don't know, or these are grade eight bolts that are six inches long, right, and these are what what do you think it is? The breaking strength on those early yearnit I wouldn't know. It's a stupid strong like thousands of pounds. Right, It's basically like a six inch long grade eight bolt eight inch diameter, so you basically just drill out the little hole drop in your bolt, climb up that way. Go For what percentage of the time are you guys hunting pre prepped trees with your saddles versus showing up for the first time there? I know, well, I think most of the time with you, John, you have a lot of pre prep trees, right. I go into each season with probably forty pre prep trees. So for the rest of you guys, when you look at the fact that now, like your saddle hunters, now, I think lots of times when people think of tree stand hunters, you've got your pre prep locations and then you know, maybe you'll have a running gun set that you'll go to hop around every once in a while. But if you go into the season saying I'm a saddle hunter now and I'm not gonna do any of that, do you still like to go and have a lot of trees already ready, or do you say I'm gonna stave all that time I used to spend the summer and instead I'm going to scout or practices with my bow or do whatever else because I know I can just head and hunt. What are you guys doing well? If I could, I would always hunt a prepared tree. It's just easier. I don't sweat it's it's just easier. Um. But the way I hunt, I would say that I'm shooting or hunting from a prepared tree probably a sixty of the time. Um, probably sixty, I would guess is when I'm going in blind or to somewhere maybe I have scouted before, that I don't have a tree prepared and I'm you know, taking in my sticks or my spurs or bolts or whatever it is that I'm taking in. I'd probably say that's four out of ten hunts, and then six out of ten I'm I'm going to a tree that's prepared. But if I'm honting out of state, I'm I mean, every tree is is a is a running gun, whatever you wanna call it, a mobile a mobile hunt. So I mean, it really is scenario dependent for me. And when I come to like I mentioned earlier, I'm in the military, so I move a lot, and uh, you know, for the first couple of seasons, it's like mostly running gun and then as I've found little spots here and there, now I've probably got I've been in Georgia for three hunting seasons now, and I've probably got I don't know, maybe maybe a dozen trees prepped at any time that I could go in and hunt. So my preferred method is John style of prepping a tree in advance, but just doesn't always work out that way for me. That's funny because I like the adventure of a new tree. Um My pre prepped trees our last year's adventure trees. So I don't necessarily go prep a tree ahead of time unless it's something where I was like, yeah, I I really like this area that I sat one time last year, and then I might go in and do something like that. But most of the time I'm I do a lot of run and gun and just going and yeah. My anything that I would call pre prepped is a tree that I run and gunn hunted the year before. Where are you at, Andy, Yeah, Um, I run and gun often. Um, that's at least half the time you know I'm doing that. Um, there's some spots that you know, maybe some permission spots that I've had you know, for you know, several years that kind of historically have been like some good rut spots that yeah, you know you could sit in that tree or in the rut and you know it's it's a quality spot. So I'd say that those are prepped or ready to go, and I'll you know, I'll go and trim those. But I just don't have a ton of those. But um, you know, everything outside of the rut um, you know, for me, it's I'm it's usually kind of on the fly because I'm if I'm moving in on something, it's because I just found out about it, or i just observed it, or it's it's kind of fresh intel. So for me, you know, outside of the road, it's usually a running gun and a brand new spot that you know, I didn't have time to prep or it would have been too risky of a move. She would screwed the deer up I was going after. When it comes to picking trees or prepping trees, at least from my experience, when I'm going into hunt, whether it's in the summer and I'm prepping it for the season or it's in season, I'm approaching that process pretty similar to what I was doing in the past when I was going up there with a lone wolf and sticks or whatever. I mean, I'm looking for generally the same qualities in this tree. I'm looking generally in the same locations. The only things that jump out to me is being different out the gate would be number one. I'm setting up in the tree located a little bit different. In the past, I might have been trying to position myself towards where the deer we're gonna be, or using cover in some way, thinking much more about which direction the tree stands facing because you're stuck there. While in the tree saddle, I'm primarily I'm hanging behind the tree, and then I'm positioning myself to have good shots to my left and then are on either side. Um, but I'm curious. One of the things that a lot of people have asked, and I thought about this too. One of the benefits of hunting from the saddle is the fact that you can do what I just said. You can use the tree more easily to to hide yourself from from approaching deer, and you can adjust where you are on the tree so you keep the tree trunk in between you and the deer. Because of that, do you allow yourself or do you look at your tree selection differently? Because you're not as dependent on a bunch of other cover to protect you open the tree visually, So because I can move with the tree trunk, I can hide myself more. Could I get away with a slightly more open tree than I would want in a tree stand? Do any of you guys ever look at I look at everything when I'm picking out a tree. Yeah, that definitely comes into play. If you look at a tree and it's it's at least sixteen inches a diameter, you know you can hide behind at least I can because I'm small and you can too, Greg. But I did want to get back from me touch on one other thing. So we were talking about running gun. Uh. I killed my biggest buckover on a running gun in Iowa because I was like what you were talking. I was reacting to a visual at a distance. So I did a d I y freelance um in in. When I'm hunting in Michigan, get I hunt totally different than I do in any other state I've ever hunted. Our deer are so heavily pressured, and it's hard to do a freelance hunt without spooking something that's going to affect your hunt because there's so few mature bucks and if you're running gunning and you've got to be back in cover where there's you're gonna have any possible chance at a mature buck because because everything he does is a security cover oriented running and gunning is very difficult here Kansas, Iowa. You know, southern Illinois, running and gunning is pretty pretty simple because you can spook deer and it doesn't seem to affect it nearly as much. Um. But as as far as the trees, going back to the trees, and also I did want to say this, I may have forty trees prepped during the season at the beginning of the season, Um, I pry. It's a rare year that I would hunt ten of those trees because they change from year to year. You know what, a white oak may have acorns this year, or an apple tree may have apples, or a primary scrape area may be active this year and it's not going to be for the next two years, depending on crop rotations, so everything changes entry and exit routes. You know, one year, depending on the crop field, my location is next to my entry route might not allow me to hunt that tree effectively on a morning or an evening on whatever that tree is best suited for. But as far as picking out the tree for the location, uh, there's no question being able. In my opinion, hiding behind the tree makes a big difference. I actually look for trees that slightly lean. I liked on a slightly leaning tree because it's like standing on a ladder. You know, it's just more comfortable your your your back is more upright if not leaning forward, and the trees leaning away from you, away from you like on a ladder, and a slight lean on a slight lean tree because you I mean, I've hunted trees probably with a twenty degree tilt to them. And when you hunt a tree with that much of a lean, you can't really swing around to the backside because gravity takes are swinging and swinging you around. But you can hunt a tree with five degree lane and not have any problem moving around the tree in any direction. So I like a slightly leaning tree, and I and I gravitate like Earning was talking. I gravitate the big diameter trees where you can really hide. You know, I've shot deer out of a sling saddle as low as small as four inches in diameter, but pretty hard to hide buying a four inch tree. Yes, so what about branches in the tree? So you know, we're we're trying to look for cover, but at the same time, you want to be able to maneuver around and the saddle it's much more mobile and you're kind of maneuvering three inert degrees around it. If you've got a lot of branches in the tree coming out river which way from a tree stand, most people look at that as beneficial. Hides you in there and you're not gonna be moving around anyways in a saddle. One of the big perks of the fact that you can spin around and shoot to the other side. But if there's branches in the way, that becomes more difficult. Do you avoid trees like that, um and look for those more easy to move in a bigger trees so you're hidden stone, what do you how do you think about that? So you you can spin around the whole tree or you don't have to. I mean just because uh, you're boxed into a certain you know your zone of the tree based on branches. Well, if that works for where you anticipate the deer coming from. There's no reason you can't hunt that with the saddle anyways. I mean, just like if the if the branches created a zone on a tree that was great for a tree stand, but it was facing the wrong way, you wouldn't sit in that tree with a tree stand either, you know. So it's kind of like, just because I can't spin around the whole tree with my saddle doesn't mean the tree won't work. I mean, if if it's facing the right way, it's facing that down wind trail, uh, just below the main trail that you expect that buck to be running, well, end's perfect, you know, and you can still do that. But yeah, like John said, in a perfect world, you do have a tree that gives you three D sixty degree mobil around the tree you meant the help wind trailin trail. Yeah, I'm sorry, but you don't have to, you know what I mean. It's it's not like it's a deal breaker if you have some branches in the way. Sure it'll it'll limit your your shot or your ability to move around the tree, but you can you can certainly still make those shots, just like you couldn't a tree stand yeah, And I mean if you're in a tree stand and you've got a tree with a bunch of branches, you're naturally limiting your number of shots anyway. So at all things being equal, you're note worse off, right, Yeah, I guess that's what I was trying to say in a roundabout way. It's you're not really at a disadvantage compared to a tree stand, it's just maybe you don't get to use all of the advantages of a saddle set up. I've actually found that that type of tree in situation better for a saddle because, um, a lot of times when you have multiple branches or trunks coming up, Um, you know, it's hard to fit a big tree storm tree stand platform in there and something you know you might have to you might be able to get it in there, but you might have to put it out facing like an awkward direction. We have to stand up and turn to shoot. But with the saddle, I can usually find a hole where I can because my my my footprints so much smaller. Whether I'm using a ring of steps or the small predator platform or something that's I can usually find a smaller hole that I can fit in there. And yeah, you may not be able to shoot three sixty degrees, but I feel like you know, from my experience, I've been able to get into some of those trees, even more so than trying to fit you know, twenty four inch wide, you know platform up there. So I think this is what I think I should have rephrased my question, because we covered all really good stuff. But I want to get at the either or if you had to choose, If you've got two trees sitting in that perfect location, one of them has got lots of ship all over the place, it's gonna hide you very well, but it's gonna limit the ability to maneuver and get a bunch of different shottings. And let's say even let's take wind out of that. Maybe maybe somehow you've got sent control and you don't care, and there's trails every direction around you, there's deer could come from any directions. You want to have the best possible shot. Um, are you going to pick the tree that makes it so you are hidden? One, no question about it. But you're stuck with like one or two shots. You're not gonna be able to take advantage of the really cool flexibility of the saddle. Or you've got this tree that's just a couple of yards away and it just has a couple of branches coming out, So typically you look at it like, oh, man, I'm gonna be hung out to dry. But man, there's lots of different shot angles from that. I could shoot a deer no matter what, and I'm just gonna depend on my huting behind the trunk. I'll pick that tree every time. I'll pick that, I'll pick the second. You just get up a little bit higher so you're out of their purpor. I'll pick the second tree every time. And and even if you're not necessarily able to use the tree as cover, your profile on the tree looks more natural instead of a big blob on the side of the tree like you might be in a hang on tree. Stay in because you're exiting the tree at an angle. Your feet are toward the tree and whatever else. It's a much more natural angle for animals to see. It doesn't strike it as odd as quickly. Um you're less likely to get picked off. I believe in that situation because you know, minus a movement, you could pass for a big branch if you had to write. And I can say for certain that I get picked off less like on the profile view. I've had tons of deer look right up at me in a tree stand. But even when they come in from the side like catch me off guard or something, and and and they're seeing my side profile, I haven't had a dear look up at me in a saddle and you know pin me like that. That. Yeah, I think it's You're exactly right, and you come off looking much more natural part of the canopy. So do you re find yourself spreading your arms out to look even more like a branch liked Charles did when he was Carable hunting exactly interpret on top of the tree. I'm a branch, um were you know? I feel like you were about to say something John before I forgot already hold I was going to comment on what Andy said. Um, okay, that's really interesting that you guys all agree on that. And that's one of those things like even as I've been this summer prepping trees, this is the first summer they've really been prepping with a saddlin mind, And I've been asking myself that question over and over again. And I'm picking trees, and I've been leaning towards doing just that. I'd rather have slightly less cover but in the right spot and have the shots because I can make up for that with my positioning. It seems like every time I couldn't agree more, I did want to. I remember what it was now with a saddle, I don't think there's any question. After you've used a saddle while and you get comfortable with it, you have no issues going higher. So in a saddle, uh, you know, it's not a big deal if you're in a tree that's kind of small around in diameter and you want to get up an extra five or six ft higher and you wouldn't hang on. You know, when you're in a hangout and you're ut, you're looking at the abyss in front of you with the saddle your face and the tree hooked with a seven thousand pound rope, you know you're not gonna fall, and you've got the tree gives you a false sense of security in front of you. Also also, so I don't know about you, guys, I definitely higher since I've been using a saddle than I did in the seventies when I hunted with a tree stand. I was twenty to twenty five ft with tree stand and now I'm typically to thirty man. I I can attest to that because you came out and helped my buddy Dustin and I set up a tree to kind of demonstrate how you set up first saddle hunting everything. And I think you're under stilling how high you get. I think that's true. You got up there. I think Dustin messed me. He ranged found it, like from he got out there and ranged down to the ground. He said it was like close to thirty five yards or something like it was way up there, feet up there. I mean, in in in my own little way, I'm afraid of heights. I mean literally, I get that like clinched feeling on video games if I get too close to the edge of buildings like I just do. And uh, I definitely feel more secure in a saddle at height than I do anything else. Um, because I can feel the tension of the rope. There's no slack in the system. You can feel that support. Um. You know, with any kind of a normal safety harness, there's some slack built into the system. And you are set up so that you know you have those gotcha moments where you're you kinda lean a little bit and then you kind of stutter step and you're like, oh, you know, not often a tree stand you're gonna have those little pucker moments over the course of a hunt, and you don't have that in a tree saddle because you feel embraced and you feel connected the whole time. So safety check that off the list. Like, we all feel pretty good there. But now in the next issue that a lot of people get to is what come for so many questions that can't be comfortable? That looks crazy? Can you take naps? I get that one a lot too. How's the napping going to sleep all the time? Go ahead, Andy, you're going to say, I sleep. I get my tree two hours hour and after two hours for daylight, I sleep until daylight. It's funny, John, One of my favorite things I ever learned from you and and and this was years and years and years ago. And I've told you before how instrumental your books were early on in my like next step of becoming a deer hunter, and the idea of getting into your tree stands like two hours beforehand in the mornings changed my life because I had this whole new Rachel. I get in there an hour and a half or two hours before daylight. And then it was every morning the tree stand nap and it was such a great thing, like my favorite part of the hunt. And a couple of hour nap, I get out and I have to thank you for that. Well, the bridge, the bridge gives you a nice little surface. I put hand up and I got like this and I'm out. You know, it's much uh much easy year to to fall asleep if that's what you want to do. I know how to tree stand, you know, even with my my safety harness. Um. You know, sometimes you know, you've been hunting all day and it's mid day and you're kind of just like it's one of those slow days or something. You're kind of nodding off, and it's like every time you start going for yourself, you're like, you know that that's the pucker moment. I was just talking about. But as um as far as comfort though real quick. Um. You know I mentioned early on that you know, I got into saddle hunting in two thousand three or four, but I didn't stick with it because I couldn't find comfort in it. Um. I had I used an old saddle as called a trophy line. Um. You know, pretty heavy pretty bulky, but it just, um, I couldn't find comfort in it because I just tend to be real sensitive around my my low back and my hips. I get pretty bad sciatica nerve pains sometimes. Um. So my journey has been trying different saddles, making my own. Um you know, I actually made one out of fleece that kind of met my needs, but UM never felt maybe a comfortable with it. And then, uh, it wasn't until when you first you mentioned what we're eating lunch? You made yourself a tree set out of fleece. And then the first thing I thought is like Andy took an old north face and stitched together and just hung in. That thing's essentially what it is that terrifies me. Well, I should say I did have a professional lightweight rock tiving harness as a backup under that, so I was thinking totally tied into that. But it wasn't until um, I tried the mantis that I actually found comfort, like out of a commercial type settle, and why I chose that one over the fleece. It was much lighter. Um It's it's not nearly as as warm because it's a mesh material, but it just the way it sits or the way it just captures my body. Um, I've been able to be very, very comfortable in it, and that's something for me personally. I've had a hard time finding and a lot of saddle hunters can get comfortable in just about anything, and I'm not one of those guys. So for you, the big thing was having like the back strap, it was a big thing for you. What are some other things that you guys are doing to make it more comfortable? I know one thing for me was just figuring out the right height for my tether to attach. Um, can you guys a huge thing? Talk more about that or anything else you do. Yeah, I mean, so to begin with, it's a normal question that that can't be comfortable. That's completely normal. If you just see a video or a picture of it and you see this dude hanging out of a tree with thing under his butt, like, I get it, Like that doesn't look comfortable. But once you try it and you get your system dialed in, like and he was talking about once you get it figured out where it works for you, man, it is like a lightbulb and it just works. You know, tether height, it is a trick that you mentioned mark about where do you put your tether height on the tree? Now, what that means is for the for those maybe just hearing this for the first time. Your tether again, is that main safety rope that goes around the tree and attaches to your saddle. That is, that's your main life support. Uh. Like John said, it's like a seven thousand pound rated rope. It's super crazy strong. But where you attach that to the tree. I like to tell people to start at around forehead height. Start there, and then you can adjust that up or down. I actually go even lower than that. I go to about my Adam's apple, So we're kind of like where my neck meets my collar bone. That's about where I wear my tether. Where I tie my tether. Now I know guys that tied as high as they can reach above their head. Uh So there's no wrong way to do it, but it's important to spend some time in the backyard at ground level figuring that out. You don't want to figure that out twenty five ft in the air when a pope and young is staring at you. You want to figure that out in the in the season, you know, preseason, or you know at least in the backyard on the around where it's safe, so that's important. Where you put the saddle on your body is very important. Some guys like to wear up high above their waist where they would higher than they would put a belt. Not me. I wear it down underneath my butt, down below where I would wear my belt. Uh. And there's every kind of option in between. But the trick is to set it up in your backyard on the tree, move it up and down, squinch it up, loosen it, play with the micro fit adjusters, play with the saddle, kind of get it right, and then once you once you nail it, you know that it's nailed, and you're like, I got it this This works really really well. And the back support product that we have, the recliner, which is nothing more than a few pieces of webbing. You don't have to buy it from me. Go out and make one on your own, you know. Go go in your garage and find some old webbing or old fleece blanket and stitch it up, tie it up. It doesn't have to be fancy, but back support is a really big deal. Ours is pretty cool because it clips into your carabine er and it's got adjustments on both sides, so it's like idiot proof, but you could make one just as easily as you could buy one UM. But the back support thing was a huge game changer for me. I mean, once I figured that thing out and I started playing with you know, support up high kind of underneath my armpits for when I really wanted to, like recline, it's perfect. And then if i'm you know, getting ready to maybe it's you know, an hour before dark and it's starting to get the prime time, I'll slide that thing down a little bit, so I'm a little bit more ready to take a shot. But there's so many ways that you can get comfortable. If you're willing to spend fift twenty minutes in your backyard at ground level where it's safe and just play with everything you can, you can get it dialed in. Yeah, I made the mistake of not ever trying the back uh support last year, so I'm intrigued to give that a shot. And just it's we brought you one UM so you can you can try it, and it's it's you're gonna like it. I'm excited where you have where you have it tethered as far as high has a lot to do with your shot opportunities as well. When you get in a tree and you tether it as high as you can reach. If you're right handed and you're setting yourself up for a shot ninety degrees to your right, you know that lead is probably when you take a shot, it's going to be in the way of your elbow when you draw your bows. So by lowering the lead the tree tether also it puts that tether out of the way when you take shots to your to your right, to your left side, or whatever side you're gonna shoot. And another thing is that's so much more comfortable than anything in a tree stand because at the tree stand, you're sitting in a seat. It's got a nice soft cushion, but you're sitting ninety degrees basically, and with the saddle, you can adjust your drape at any moment at any time. I probably on an all days sit will adjust my drape twenty times. When you say adjust your drape, okay, there is a drape adjustment on the lead which comes down to your saddle. There's a real fast drape adjustment where you just if you're using the rope man drape adjuster or the proofs of either one. We gotta get John a tethered assory. So he starts using the terms. Ye, he's been doing his own words. But you can, you basically can let out a little bit of lead. So in other words, I like to sit with the majority of my weight in my seat, so my butt is supporting most of my weight, like sitting in a hammock in a yard, basically a hammock seed. Now when my if I sit there for three hours and my butt gets sore and I want to stand more upright, I just reach up, pull some lead up, and now I'm standing more upright. Some guys like to stand with their legs straight, so they've got all their weight on their feet and a little bit on their butt. Well, if it gets to the point where your feet gets sore from standing on steps or whatever, you're standing on a platform, all you gotta do is let a little bit of lead out, and you'd be shocked. You can let out just two inches a lead and it makes a world of difference and how comfortable you sit two inches long way. Yeah, it's uh, it's your story. That was a softball were dealt. I can't tell you how loud. That's what she said, was screaming the back of her mind. That was a softball. Yeah. The beauty thing is no two bodies are built the same, and sounds are so adjustable, and and maybe one brand works better than another in your particular body shape. But play around with it, um, Like we had talked about, little microadjustments make major changes in how things feel, and the only way you're going to figure it out is playing your yard. Um, I'm to the point now where I can set up blindfolded, and I know where my tether tie off point is, where my rotman's at, where I want the saddle, So within about fifteen seconds, I'm in what I would call my most comfortable position. So I was asked this continuing on with her any window. So when I said, what's your favorite position and and what how do you kind of alluded a little bit, But when you're actually in there, what do you guys find it be the most comfortable positions to be in your saddle because it's a whole bunch of different ways. You can kind of beet your feet on the platform and the steps and you're kind of leaned out. You can kind of stand almost all the way up right, you could be in almost like a seated position with your knees against the tree. You could straddle the tree, you could side saddle, go around the tree with your knees. There's a lot of different ways to do it. Whatever you guys found to be the most comfortable ways to spend long hours in the tree. Yeah. For me. For me, it's because of my my back issues, things to get stiff. It's kind of all the above. I'm I'm changing positions constantly. Sometimes I'm sitting more like John, and I'm kind of more sitting in the in the saddle, and then I'll adjust my to other or just the ropeman up a little higher so that I'm I'm more leaning and I'll put my knees kind of into the tree. Um, you know, sometimes I go to the side, um and just it just kind of depends. Um. But I'm I'm constantly adjusting. But it's nice about it. As opposed to a tree stand, it's it's all like it's all very slow, and it's all very minute, and and like you guys said, it makes a big difference. Where we're in a tree stand, I'm constantly standing and then and then sitting and you know, much more movement. But one thing I want to mention too, that was a big increasing comfort for me for like, for all days sits and stuff. That Predator platform made a huge difference in comfort for me. Um, the ring of steps. I did that for a lot of years and I still will do it. Um. But if I have a choice, UM, I go with the Predator platform, even though it is carrying a little more weight. Just for me personally, UM, it brings my legs together a little more so I don't have quite the hip pressure. Um. And it's just a little more comfortable on my feet. I think I have some pretty weak senset of feet or something, and I like that too. And you can every once in a while you want to just stand up like you're standing like a normal anywhere tree standard on the ground, and just having the ability to do that once in a while, it is really nice to be able to do a couple of times a day if you're all day setting or something. And sometimes you know, I'll stand up. The way the way we design the little Predator platform as we call it, like a pivot a pivot style platform, is I'll stand up on that thing pivot my feet around to where now my back is against the tree. My teather is coming over my shoulder and kind of pulling me back into the tree. And I'll just put my back against the tree sometimes and just stand there. And I'm also kind of like Andy, I'll use every single method during an all day sit. I'll stand, I'll lean, I'll sit side saddle, I'll straddle the tree. If the tree is not too big, I'll go around to the side and I'll put one knee into the tree and I'll sit that way. And it's kind of like what Andy mentioned about, You're making little adjustments slowly throughout the day to remain comfortable. So you know, if if I'm listening in my car driving to work and i hear that Greg just said, I'm gonna move around to this position, in that position, in this position, in that position, I'm thinking, oh, man, that's a lot of movement. Well, it's not because I'm doing it very slowly. I'm doing it very deliberately. I'm taking my time, I'm not making noise, and I'm doing it every thirty minutes, every hour, every hour and a half. Whenever I'm starting to get sore, I'll move a little, I'll just it And I'm like Andy said, I'm going slow, I'm paying attention, I'm being I'm being quiet, I'm looking around. I'm not just gonna go swinging around the tree. I will say, though, like if you are new, like this is your first year trying to saddle, pay attention to that because it is easy. It's so easy to move around, so easy, it's almost you could almost like I found myself a couple times, almost like I'm in a rocking chair. I'm not paying attention. I'm kind of just like comfortably and like whoa mark, you gotta pull yourself together here. So you're right, it's fun. It's fun to swing around, easy to swivel around and stuff. So do remember like, hey, you're right, Um, I am much more mobile than I would be in a tree stand, but you have to temper it with slowness, with the proper timing um, and so much of using a saddle, well, I'm from my small amount of experience, seems to be timing when you're getting position for the shot, timing when you make those readjustments. Timing a lot of the the flexibility of it is very dependent on how you utilize that flexibility. You can really you could screw yourself over a whole lot if you do it, you know, poorly timed. So I want to throw one thing in that andy. I'm like you, I move around all the time, probably twenty three times and then all day said. Um, but one thing, I definitely want to mention the new users if you're just something new, because I've seen lots of guys set up. But you know, during my workshops, I have people bring their saddles and they set up in them, and they always get new users always sit in a tree where they're they're back is beyond parallel to the tree trunk. In other words, their back is leaning backwards. And if you're sitting with no back support, if you don't have the back support that you guys were talking about a minute ago, and you're back is not parallel to the tree or four. If it's leaning backwards, you're gonna be uncomfortable very fast. If you don't have something supporting your back, you always want to be parallel to the trunk or leaning forward. And another thing is, um, you know you had mentioned some people like the saddle where it's up above their waist. If you have a saddle and it's up above your waist. What what that? That is kind of detrimental because what that does is it locks your upper body mobility into your lower body where you can't spin at the waist to shoot behind you. Once you bring something up into your lower back, it locks these two together, so you lose that ability to spin at the waist to shoot back behind you. Because because when you got that at belt level or below, you can spin around and you can easily shoot directly behind you ninety degrees, if not a hundred and twenty degrees. And as far as me, when I'm sitting in myself, my knees are bent probably three degrees. So I'm not like when I'm sitting in my saddle. I'm not like ninety degrees like you're sitting in a tree's in n ac My knees are only that like thirty degrees. One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is kneepads. I wear kneepads. I used to think I don't need them until the first hunt I used them. I won't go into those without them now. Um. I tend to find myself a lot of times with one knee on the tree, both feet on the platform, and my legs at like a forty five degree angle, So I'm kind of in the middle between leaning and sitting. I don't sit flat like you would sit at a ninety degree in a deep squat, so I'm kind of a hybrid between the two. I'm leaning, but I'm also kind of into the tree with one knee for support, and that also, you know, I we all try and set up so that I have to move as little as possible for the premier shot that I'm looking for. And when I'm in that position, I've got one knee on the tree, two ft on the platform, and a rope at my hips. It's hard to get much more stable than that for my setup. A couple of questions on On last questions and comfort, there's the common, somewhat common question of hip pinching. That's the thing that pass people with past saddles had concerns with. People. Wonder, you've got these two ropes pulling off either side of your hip, so you've got this pressure point right there, your hip points kind of Um, is there anything you guys recommend to avoid that, whether it be how you adjust your saddle or what you wear or has a lot to do. It's coming from. Yeah, you guys can probably address that for future reference. Yeah, bridge links definitely one. Uh. Saddle sizing. You know, if you don't have the right size for your particular body shape, Um, your tether height. Um. The higher your tether is, the steeper that tethered angle is, the more it's gonna feel like it's pulling up. And the more pressure you're gonna feel on the top of that saddle, the more you're gonna have stuff around your hips, the lower it is, and the more flat you can get that angle, I mean to a point, right, you don't want it horizontal, but UM to a point. Now, instead of all your weight being in the saddle, you're spreading some of that weight to your feet and it allows you the saddle is now pulling you towards the tree instead of pulling you up the tree. And that makes a big difference. That does make a big difference. And and let me those are all really good points to consider, but there's another way to look at that problem too. So imagine if if you went out and you hung your tree stand and it's the first first weekend of deer season, you haven't been in a tree in in a year essentially, and you went out and you tried to sit all day long, you would be so incredibly uncomfortable. Now fast forward a month and a half into the season. Now you can sit all day because your body has gotten accustomed to sitting in that tree stand and being still and being silent and focusing on your surroundings. It's the same thing with a saddle setup. I like to call it saddle shape because it takes your body just a little while to get used to the different geometry and the different physics. It's different to go from a tree stand where you're sitting on a metal seat versus being essentially suspended and hanging from a rope. The geometry is just different. The physics, it's just different. It's just gonna put pressure, support, whatever you wanna call it, in different regions of your body. I call it saddle shape. You gotta get your body used to it. Your hips gotta get used to it. Um When I go out and I hunt the first time in September, my hips are gonna hurt a little bit. And I've been saddle hunting for ten years. It's just because I gotta get used to it again, So don't don't overthink it. Sometimes if you're if you're new to a saddle and it's hurting in the backyard and your hips are getting a little tender, well that's normal. You know, as you get used to it and you start to figure it out more, you're gonna get it's gonna get better. Um, if it's unbearable, that's a different thing. Now you're probably looking at you know, do you have the wrong side eyes? And my tying in wrong? Am I wearing it way too high? Help above my belt? Is that uncomfortable? But if it's just a little uncomfortable, your hips are a little tender, a little sore, that might be normal, and it might just be that it's different. Genlemetree. You gotta get used to it, and you gotta get your body in saddle shape a little bit. The pressure, the pressure hits somewhere just even on a tree stand, like on your on your sitz bone. You know, after a while, it's like they'll start to get sore, and you you relieve it, You adjust, you stand, you you do what you need to do to kind of relieve that pressure. But when then in the saddle, it's really easy to do that by just making some microadjustments. You just change that pressure a little bit and it takes like next to no movement. But going back off the hip pinch thing, one thing that really helped me. Um. So when I used when I use a ring of steps, um, it's it's kind of uncomfortable on my feet. So what I tend to not put as much weight on my feet and put more weight into the saddle sitting. And when I do that, UM, I usually will straddle the tree, which you know, brings my legs out wider, which kind of makes the saddle I guess more dig into the side of my leg. Some people can handle it, it's not a big deal for me. It hits like a nerve and it will kind of make my legs go to sleep sometimes. So UM, when I have the choice, I prefer that platform. That made a huge difference in comfort to me, not only the bottom of my feet but just having my legs together. That that pinch that I was getting on the bottom of the saddle is like all but eliminated, you know, So that that right there for me. Um from a guy that struggled with hip pinch, that pretty much solved it. Yeah, I did. I did find that the platform for me too made it more comfortable. And I would say another thing back the platform. If you're coming from a tree stand hunting background and you're trying to go to a saddle, that's a really nice transition. Yeah you're comfort let's go. Okay, I understand what this. This is much smaller version than what I'm used to, but I can wrap my head around this. You stand on that, there's a certain comfort and you end stand up every once in a while and get repositioned. There was only one hunt all of last year that I was uncomfortable in my tree saddle, and it was an all day sit. And with your wife in the tree no no, sorry, thank goodness too, she would have been really mad with me. Um, I forgot my platform. I saw I had what I had, like I think, I had two random screwings I found at the bottom of the backpack. And I was with a cameraman and and the cameraman had to be on one side of the tree, and so I had to be in a tree that was leaning back towards me. The tree was leaning back. I had no platform, So I got one ft on a tree kind of one half feet on tree pegs leaning back, and it was an all day sit in the run. And yes, so I could never and I could never get stood up to readjust and ever, once in a while, I know I talked to you, I was trying to figure out how to properly adjust my hips still to get the weight coming out at the right angle, and that point I wasn't quite getting it right, so I kept on winding to readjust where my saddle was on mys But you can never stand up enough to get the pressure off just and so ever since then, I just said, you cannot, at least for if you're gonna be in wonky trees like that. The platform is really nice to have. Yeah, that was a recipe for disas. Yes it was a just a bad set up. Um. But this brings to mind another thing that I get a lot of questions about, and I have I had some preconceived notions, but I don't know. After you guys have talked to so many of the people, what about bigger men and women? Can settles work for really large people? I mean when I said really large, I don't know, but I mean I've talked tall guys and girls. Have you talking about in particularly. But but I mean, but someone listening might think, uh, is this gonna work for my shape and style and size? Do you have you guys talked to people and finally, hey, you know people over seven foot this isn't for you or people over I mean, is there any kind of have you heard any feedback the guys that were three or fifty pounds using it back in the old trophy line base, and they had It's basically comes to your ability to climb to the heights to use it, because it's gonna be just as comfortable as a sitting in a drestand for sure. It's you're just gonna have a bigger seat, that's all. What are you guys seen from the manufacturing side working with customers? Well, Taylor, look how big Taylor is. Taylor is a big guy, three h pounds and Taylor's like probably pushing four hundred pounds. He's he's a giant. Kidding Taylor. We love Taylor, Ernie, I mean, what do you think? Yeah, I mean it really at that point, it's just a matter of finding a saddle that's big enough for you. Um, the materials will hold it and if you can find one that's sized right, so that it'll that it will match your body size and whatever else. Um. And then it's you know when you try and say it's like a weight limit, well, I mean, are you three hundred pounds and four ft taller three pounds in six six right? That those are very two different body shapes. Um. You know, so it's a matter of what kind of fits your profile. But I've seen some really big guys. Uh. There was there was a guy and I don't know his name, but he showed up at the showdown and I believe it was Birmingham. Where that dude in Birmingham. I do remember that dude in Birmingham. He was that big, was that memorable? Yeah, yeah, know, he was a big dude. I'm gonna I'm gonna say he was. He was three. He was three and a half. I'm gonna say he was. He was three and a half. Like if you were fishing, you would amounted him. And he was a big dude. He was a big dude. Yeah, good for him. And he was rocking it. Yeah, I mean he he got up in in our saddle and uh, you know, he had tried on a few different brands and whatever else and I'm sure all of them felt like the knees on him, but it's like, uh, you know, it's just a matter of what works for each guy. Yeah, yeah, probably a comfort just every each in vidual is going to have a different comfort level with things like that, and it's worth trying them on. But I you know, John kind of mentioned this, But at the same time, a three fifty pound guy is not sitting on a on a tiny ultra light tree stand either. I mean, that's gonna be so incredibly uncomfortable, but you can do it. I mean, it's all a matter of Ernie hit the nail on the head of figuring out what size works for you and and putting some time into making it work. Yeah, and probably the the ascent, the method of ascension is a big one. To how comfortable do you feel doing a mobile running down with sticks or timing of tree pegs or whatever means you choose to do. That might be a factor to think about as well. And I would think stereotypically, you're bigger guys like the feel of a ladder, you know, a ladder, so because they they've got that nice structure that they can grab onto and it's you're not as concerned about foot placement on your way up the tree. You've got a big wrong to work on. And then when you get there, the seat is big, you've got room to sit in. So I mean, although we tell everybody to get in the saddle, I think some people just feel a lot more comfortable having a different type of a structure to work with. You know, the biggest guy that I know of that that has sat in this when we first launched a guy a fellow reached out. There was a professional wrestler. I don't remember w c W or WWF, but his name was Braun Stroman. And he's like he's he's massive. He's like six six three seventy. He wanted us to make but we ended up sending him an extra large and it was it was snug on him, but he but he made it work. Um and uh, I mean I can't imagine many people that big being willing to climb a tree to but uh, yeah, that's a big like a Brocker, like a brock Lesner. He makes er look like a little kid. Just see him standing next to each other and photos and and he makes Brock look tiny. It's like Greg standing next to Andy at that point it's like it's that extreme. So so we're safely up in a tree. We've got the right gear, we're feeling comfortable, we've took our nap uh, all the things you need to do. You've adjusted in the tree with as there's deer moving past. You're always hidding. You're seven eight nine hours into your all day. Sit man, this is a perfect hunt. It yet perfect. We just need one sixty to come by. Now. It's it's five fifteen in the evening. The sun's heading towards the horizon. The wind's sword as starting to die down. Where you really are here in the birds chirping again, and you hear the leaves crispin and crunching again. Got to be a writer. I got looking that I will work. This is all right, we're almost of the climax now. And then you hear that twig snap, and then that you perk up. But then there was always that second where is it a squirrel or is it a deer? And then you hear it again, or you hear the right cadence of the steps, and when you said, okay, yeah that's actually a deer. Now you're thinking bucker dough. You slowly turn your head. You see it's a buck. You see it's a mature shooter buck. You're going to try to get a shot this, dear. I want to know what is going through each of your guys minds and what process you go through to set yourself up for a shot in the saddle. Now, maybe each of you can describe a slightly different scenare of how that deer is coming in or what you would imagine. But I'm interested to hear how you what you're doing the tree because a little bit different than when if you're just sitting in a tree stand. Um, maybe John, you want to lead us off with how what what you're doing, what you're thinking about, how you properly get a good shot out of the saddle. The first thing is going to be where am I hunting. If I'm in a bedding area where he could turn and go any direction, I'm just gonna keep watching until I know he's going to make a movement to a direction where I may need to move. If I'm at a destination location, like at a primary scrape area, where I know he's going to come into the primary scrape area, I'm probably already set up for that shot because I set up to shoot to that primary scrape area. So it totally depends on the location. But let's just say, carte blanche, I see a buck and he's coming through the timber, through the swamp or whatever. You know, my first mindset is, Okay, where do you think your opportunity shot is going to be with the way he's moving in the direction he's heading. And then I may at that point, you know, well, before he gets close to me, I may move into position for that because it's always best to move into position as soon as you can so that you're not making any movements when they're closer in. Then if I need to move and make an adjustment as he gets closer and he's going to be in a different spot than what I assumed, then I will make that adjustment. But I'm always keeping my body behind the tree because it's so simple when you keep your body behind the tree to just just barely lean out to the side and take that shot. So it's always it's always keeping my body profile so he can't visually pick me, because that's a big big deal in the state I live in. And then just trying to figure out where he's actually going to end up where you're gonna get your shot and being in position for that shot. And it's kind of akin to the You'll have two decisions like this when I'm hunting from a tree stand usually you've got the decision of this depends on person. But do you want to be seated or standing? So a lots of times I'll stand if I'm in a tree, stand like to take the shot from standing positions. So I'll understand at this point this buck is far enough away, or at this point the bucks behind this cluster of trees, I can make my movements and then I stand, or if I'm a set okay, this is when I will adjust lightly to my shooting position. And then you've got that next decision of movement, which is when do you draw your boat? And that's gonna be something I have to think about regardless of what you're hunting from. Um, Andy, is there anything else going through your mind? Um? Are you or what about feet position? What about what's the ideal shooting position? Like should you be niece to the tree, should you be standing up more fully leaned back? We talked about all these different positions for comfort throughout the day, what's the ideal position for the shot? Go ahead? And yeah, I think first of all, I think, you know, I have nothing really to add. What about what you said about as far as what to think about when a deer's coming. I mean that's pretty much spot on, I think. Um. One thing, um, you know, shooting position. Um, obviously you know you got your your your kind of go to shots. You know, uh, straight to your left, Um, it's easy to make the shot. Like John said that you know kind of in front of the tree where you just kind of peek around just a little bit, and even straight behind you is a really easy shot. Um, if you're gonna go to your week's Um, that's always been uh a little more of a difficult shot for me. Um, you can you know, go around the tree, kind of go around the radius and and come from the backside and get to a certain point. Um. And now with the with the platform, it's you know what I like about that is that I can just kind of stand up on the platform and just kind of pivot bring my bowl over and it makes for me personally, it makes that shot much more easy. Um. But one thing I like about a lot of guys worry about shooting from the saddle. Um, I actually shoot really well from the saddle, and I think, you know it's because, UM usually when I'm when I'm about to make that shot, I try to, you know, if at all possible, kind of try to suck my knees into the tree and try to get more of a like a like a wider base. So I feel like I'm explain that when you say suck your knees of the tree, I try to make as much contact with the tree as possible up against the tree or maybe even slightly stri eddling. UM. So what that does for me, it gives me a more solid platform. You know, I don't feel like I'm trying to maintain balance from my feet all the way up. It's from my knees or maybe even like the inside of my thighs up. So it's much much less to um to stabilize. I feel more grounded to a point. And then another thing, UM two is is kind of when you're you're you know, at least in most angles or a lot of angles, when you're kind of hanging off the side of the tree. It puts you in that perfect t position. You know, for a lot of shots like that's really important, you know, as a bow hunter to try to maintain that position, especially if you're gonna, you know, if you're gonna try to take a shot out past you know, five yards. Those are long shots with a bow. You know, that stuff becomes super important and and a lot of times in that tree sattle, it just kind of locks you into that position because your hips are are supported by the saddle. And yeah, you got those examples where the deer comes in lower where you have to kind of, you know, compromise for him a little bit. But you know, I'm, like John said, I'm trying to I'm starting to to to kind of ease into the position as I see the deer coming. I'm trying to anticipate the whole where this is all going to happen. So I'm trying to do that as soon as possible and not while he's standing there or closer to the tree. Do you so, based off what you said, would you take just as long of a shot from tree saddle as you would take from a tree Standar Grumblin? Yeah, Um, I mean for me, I feel just as comfortable taking any length of shot out of the tree stand. It's all going to come down to the conditions of the weather, the deer's alert level, what I'm feeling comfortable with, you know at the time, that sort of thing. But I'm I've practiced out of it just as long as I have just shooting in my flip flops in the in the backyard, and I can shoot just as accurately out of it. Do you think that wind impact accuracy more from a tree settle or the same versus a tree stand? Um, wind as far as uh, like, if it's a really windy day. I mean, I'm just imagining like someone listening is going to think, oh, well, if I'm hanging from a rope, will I be moving in the tree more than I would have a tree stand. You're anchored in at least by your feet, if not more. Yeah, you can actually anchor and you know, kind of closer to you know, you know, the midline of your body or closer to the bow, you can you can kind of you can actually like shorten you know, that length from you know, if your feet to the bow at a normal tree stand, if you're standing two you know, your knees or the inside of your thighs, you can you can kind of really get tight to that tree and kind of use that more as as support. Now, I mean it's just like a tree stand. If it's blowing and your trees blown like this, Yeah, you know that that stuff is can affect you either way. But yeah, my favorite position to shoot from is with my knees into the tree at least one. I love to put a knee into the tree and then and so I'm supported with two ft my hips and a knee. That's my favorite way to do it. Um. But kind of getting back to what you talked about a minute ago about what goes through your head, So I think it's important to bring up like John really hit the nail on the head with describing the scenarios. But you gotta keep in mind also that in a in a traditional tree stand, you can't shoot behind you because the trees there. So you you've got I don't know a hundred eighty degrees that you can shoot in a traditional tree stand, maybe slightly more, but uh um, you can't shoot behind you in most scenarios. So in a in a saddle set up, let's I like to talk about it from the perspective of a clock. So if the trees at twelve o'clock directly in front of me. Six o'clock is to my back in a saddle set up, when I hear a deer coming from noon or one o'clock rotated counterclockwise back to nine all the way back to six six o'clock, so eighty degrees right there slightly more is a absolute piece of cake. That's the shot that I'm setting up for. That's the one that I that's the position I want the deer to come to. One of those positions on the clock from one o'clock to six o'clock where it comes becomes problematic and you have to start thinking when you hear those footsteps coming is if they're coming from the opposite way what Andy said is the weak side, which is from one o'clock down clockwise to about six o'clock. That's what the saddle hunting community would call the weak side. And there's a few different ways you can you can execute that shot. John would probably walk around to the top side of the tree and shoot it, or he'd kind of probably walk around backwards and then spin around counterclockwise to make that shot. So that's what I'm thinking when when I hear that deer coming is which direction is he coming from? Because if he's coming from or coming from my weak side where I'm not prepared, I'm going into. Okay, which method am I going to used to spin around to shoot that deer? Because in a tree stand I wouldn't be able to make that shot, but in a in a saddle I can make it. I just gotta figure out the most efficient way, the most efficient movement to do that, and hopefully that makes sense. It's kind of hard to talk through without being able to visualize it, but a clock kind of makes the most sense for me. Can I throw something in on that? And typically if I'm gonna because I I don't believe in taking a week shot, I think that's a ridiculous shot to take. I've taken one, you know, my thirty eight years of saddle hunting, and it was something where there was a big ten point chasing a doll and he stopped six yards right directly to my right and I'm right handed, so I had no option. I didn't have time to move around the tree to lift my bowl over and take that shot, and unfortunately I did it. But that's the only time I've ever taken that shot. But typically if I see something and it's gonna come to my weak side, which is gonna be my right side as a right hander, you know, I'll move around to my left typically if I have time, because once I move around to my left, now I still have the tree as a blocker between the deer. The deer and me. So deer's typically coming from like let's say five or four o'clock, and you are now as again as as the tree is our twelve o'clock, you are stepping around your twelve o'clock from your six, and you're stepping around clockwise direction around the tree, swiveling around the tree up to twelve, and then that three or four o'clock becomes a doable shot. Yeah, and I'm keeping the tree trunk. I still have the tree trunk to hide behind while he's still moving forward once I've made that move, because if he's moving forward and coming in from like said, say five o'clock, if I move around to my left or to my right, I'm sorry. If I move around to my three o'clock, then basically my whole body is going to be exposed to make in the drawing movement when he's within shooting distance. Whereas if I swing around at the twelve o'clock, my body is not going to be exposed. It's gonna behind the tree, and I just lean out to the side and take the shot. Do you need to adjust your tether or your your ropeman or your prusick not at all, or think about your tether when trying to make that dramatic of a move around the tree. I'll let anythink that one. I think it depends on the size of the tree. Exactly diameter of the tree. If it's I try to hunt in a tree that's gonna be basketball size or smaller at hunting height, and in that situation, I don't have to adjust anything. If you start getting into a really big tree, obviously, as you circle around the tree, the circumference of the tree starts eating up more rope and that's where things get problematic. And so it really depends on the size of the tree. Yeah, and and John and I were actually saying the same thing. If the deer comes in at at four o'clock or five o'clock, my we call it the weak side because it's hard to make that shot. But what my mind goes into is, Okay, what movement do I have to execute right now to turn that into a strong side shot. I've got it. John would walk around the top side of the tree to keep the tree in between him in the deer because he's hunting on a ring of steps around the tree. When I hunt from a platform, what I would do is I would stand up, turn around, and then basically I would be like shooting from a tree. Stand yeah, because I would be standing on my little platform, and then I would shoot at that. You can almost sometimes while in your leaned back position, just swiveling a whole hell of a lot. Absolutely shoot to four o'clock. The first mule deer I shot in Colorado, I did exactly that. The deer came in too, about five o'clock, and I just kept spinning. Luckily he was a little freaking for key and he he wouldn't have picked me. I mean, a mature buck would have probably seen me do it. But I just spun all around just like you said, and I shot him at five o'clock just by spending. It feels a little bit like should I be able to do this? But like you're surprisingly rock solid rocks absolutely long as you keep your saddle below belt level. If your saddle was riding the deer upper back, and you wouldn't be able to spin around and shoot it because you're upper body would be locked your lower body. And also we let me I got to touch on something real quick. We were talking about the you know, strength of shooting from a saddle versus the tree stand. Anytime you're shooting out of a saddle, you have three solid, hard points of body contact. You either got one knee and one foot on a step, or your knee in the tree and your weight in your butt. You got three solid points. When a lot of times when you're shooting out a tree stand, you stand up and you're balancing somewhat on two feet on a little tiny platform to take a shot, So you only got two points of body contact, plus you're balancing yourself when you're against a tree. The tree isn't moving, it's a solid rock, hard foundation, and you've got three points of body contact took to it. You hunt bigger trees than I do. I've been in trees that are definitely moving well, I have too, but I typically I try to find a bigger one. Have any of you guys gun hunted from a saddle? I shot two bucks last year with my rifle in the saddle. So this is another one. People are like, I don't know if that would work with a gun. Any considerations, any thoughts on how that works. I'll tell you it's I used the tree as a brace and then swivel, keeping the tree on the brace, keeping the gun on the tree. Um. I'm actually fairly new with the whole bull hunting gig and h. So for the longest time, all I did was rifle on um from a saddle. Yeah, yeah, um, and yeah, I had no issues whatsoever. Now most of my rifle kills are in bowl range, so I mean it could have been bow hunting or whatnot. Um. One thing though that I've started picking up that, I just think it's a lot of fun. I haven't been successful at it yet, though, is uh saddle hunting with a handgun. Um. Because it's that whole bulk weight everything right. I can carry that handgun on a chest holster. I got nothing. Even a bowl is big compared to that everything right, And so I can sit there with a handgun and there's no weak side, there's no movement there was because I can take that gun under my bridge, over my bridge back to the tree. Front tree of the tree, turnaround. I don't have to move at all to make the shot with a handgun. Now, I haven't been able to kill anything with a handgun, but in my mind that's all um for those who've been out there with a rifle. Any do you so it sounds like you used to use the tree, But as far as rests anything else, is there any other would you ever use the bridge itself to kind of rest against that? I've quite a few here with a gun out of his saddle, just like you guys, and I use I typically use the tree as arrested's. That's a solid rough, pretty good well, and it depends. Let's say you're in a saddle on a field edge and you're watching a field right, so you kind of know where you're expecting to see animals. On that deal, you can take um, one of those two parts swinging bull hooks, you know they were what ten inch sections, Screw that into the tree at a height that you think is appropriate, and now you've got actually a bar you can lay your rifle on for making the shot across the field. I ever thought of that. It's like the mobile running gunners, ladder stand or table in the exactly only from a guy who would make a table in the woods, can we get that kind of great little tip? But it does work, um, you know, and you can have yourself a real stable arm to lay your rifle on if you can predict I'm going to be watching this field in this direction, right, that's a great idea. So we took. So I shot to two bucks this past season out of my out of my saddle, and both of them must go back to the clock analogy. One of them was at nine o'clock. I mean that's like that's the saddle hunter's bread and butter right there. That's that's what you live for. And that one was so easy now that it was probably only fifty yards away, so I mean that was really easy. Uh. The other one was at I'm gonna say seven o'clock, so I had to spin away from the tree a little bit, and that one was slightly more difficult, uh, just because I felt like I was balancing just a little bit more pivoting away from the tree. But still it was only a thirty yard shot. I mean I could have made it with my bow and with a three D wind bag. I mean I only had to get close to the deer to kill it. So it was. It wasn't hard at all. I could imagine maybe swinging away from the tree to shoot at say six o'clock freehand and a longer shot. It might be a little difficult. That might that. I don't know if I would take that shot. But you know, if you could manage to like Ernie said, and hunt somewhere in front of you where you can use the tree as a brace, it's definitely doable. Well. And if he had to shoot a deer at six o'clock it's around, just let out a little late and you can do whatever you want. Yeah. True. So we've got the shot, We killed the buck. We climbed back down the trees stand or down out of the tree, got of him, took our pictures, went home. Now we're going back and chat with all of our buddies and our friends, saying, holy smokes, Bill, this thing actually works. It's more comfortable than I thought, it's easier than I thought, it's lighter than I thought, it's quicker to go up in the tree than I thought. And I don't need to buy twenty tree stands next year. But then your buddy Bill gets one and he tries it the next year and he gets back He's like, oh man, this went wrong. But this went wrong. This wasn't as cool as I though I was going to be. All these little mistakes the first time saddle hunters might do nipptoun in the butt. What is a thing or two you can think of as far as a common mistake that we can just nip right now and make sure that those common mistakes don't get made. I think Greg hit it right on then head earlier. You know, you need to practice in your yard first to weed out all those mistakes before you were ever getting a tree. And yeah, I think that's I think that's normal that you would encounter those types of things, little things because it's different. I mean, I always like to think back to the guys that were first using the old Baker climb and tree stands, or when you when you transition from a recurve to a compound bow, you had the same naysayers, ah that that wheelboat never work. My my recurves tried and true. I know exactly. It's gonnaway blah blah blah blah blah blah, same old stuff. So you just have to you have to put some time into figuring out your system. If you take a climb and tree stand and the very first time you go out in the woods and put it on a tree, you don't know how the locks work, how to make it safe, how to make sure it's connected right, how to do it quietly. You're gonna spook everything in the woods. You're gonna scare them all away, and you're probably not gonna be very safe, and you're gonna be uncomfortable. It's a learning curve. So you got to spend a couple of sessions in the backyard shooting your bow at ground level. If you will do that, if you will spend two sessions in your backyard fifteen or twenty minutes apiece, you will work out of the kinks right there. And then it's going to take you a few hunts to really work out the rest of that little tiny bit that you have left of learning curve. But you can figure out most of it in your backyard in thirty minutes. In my opinion, I could be wrong, but I that's that's been my experience with most folks. I think a lot of guys expect comfort immediately. They expected, you know, they hear all these benefits of it, and and they get it and they try it on and they get in the you know, try it in the backyard and it's like, you know, it's pinching my hips or this isn't comfortable, or you know, like you said, not only do you gotta get in saddle shape, but it's really important to get it dialed in. And it takes time, you know, and you've gotta you gotta do that before you go on the woods and hunt. Right, don't figure that out twenty five ft up right when the Pope and young is looking at you. Do it. Do it at a time, and it's worth just reiterate. And it's been said several times, but little tweaks in how you tighten things or how you position things make a big difference in how it feels. So like making that little adjustment, and he mentioned it might just be just as much as tightening something half an inch and all of a sudden, oh it's a lot better. But it's if you think right out of the box, it's going to be perfect, you know, no, because it's made to adjust for all sorts of different body types and sizes, right like you're supposed to adjust it to you and that guy, you know, going back to your example, the guy who went out in his saddle the first time and didn't like it. Um, he's comparing it to how many years has he had to dial in his climbing tree stand. Right when you first bought a climbing tree stand, it wasn't perfect, but he's he's used to that. Now, he's dialed in, he knows how to use that stand. Now he's gonna try something new and suspect the same efficiency, in the same comfort out of a new product. And you're just not gonna get that that that's gonna come with time. And that's where I think a lot of people just aren't pay enough to to to think about the first time they had a climbing tree stand. I mean, my first climbing tree stand was a tree lounge. And if there's a louder, more awkward stand up putting the tree than that, I don't know what it is. But I hunted with it for years and got to be where I could do it. Um. Then I moved into some other brands and whatever else. But you have to use the stuff and get familiar with it so that it becomes muscle memory. Like a process. You're like, Okay, yep, this is how I do this is how I do this. I'm in, I'm in, I'm going. You don't think about it and you're already in your comfort zone. But that doesn't happen the first day. I got a question for you, Mark, Why didn't Bill ask his buddy to show him how to use it? He's a stubborn basket. Bill wanted all the trees to himself. He didn't want the guy to figure it out. Because the first thing I tell people is throw, you know, put three or four targets out around the tree you're going to practice in. Put some steps or platform eighteen inches off the ground, and just shoot it all the different. Just practice shooting it all a different target it and none of your eighteen inches off the ground. You just get out and get your girls, get back in it, and just practice. That's exactly what I tell everyone. Practice right on the ground, at ground level shooting. You will work out most of the kinks right there. I'll add, though, take it one step further in practice, ascending to thea the hole. Get up, because you don't want to be practicing hanging all your sticks and pulling up your platform and pulling your bow on your backpack for the first time on opening day, and you know you already running an hour late, and your wife was mad at you, and you're stressed out, and you forgot your range finder, and then you don't remember how to get all these things up. No, get that taken care of in the summer, or at least a couple of days ahead of time. I mean last year, I got my saddle just in time, um, like two days before I left for my first hunt of the year. And so I took it out, went out for like a half hour, climbed up in two a tree once with it, got comfortable and there shot a few times and like, all right, I'm going And I killed a really nice buck three days later and felt, um, so it was really cool. I sent I sent a saddle to my brother last year. He wanted when he was going to hunt in Kentucky, and I told him the same thing that I tell everyone. I said, make sure you set it up in the backyard, practice your shooting, get comfortable. Of course Jack asked into it. He he threw it in his bag and drove to Kentucky and went out and hunted the first afternoon, just just in the thing, and then at the end of the hunt, or you know, during the middle of hunt. I can't remember. We were talking every day, but he's like, Greg, I don't know what you're talking about. He said, I was comfortable in this thing from the moment I put it on. I I don't know, Ernie, maybe you could add to this, but I would say probably maybe four or five out of ten guys say have that experience that it was perfect right out of the gate. And that's not just with our particular models of saddle that's just kind of saddle hunting in general. You know, maybe forty and guys kind of get it right away and then the other half or or you know, maybe it takes a little bit longer. I was in that where it took me some time and some figuring to get it done. So like Andy was in that same six where it took him some time and some figuring. So it's normal if it's uncomfortable, if it hurts a little bit, if you don't get it, it's normal. But those advantages that made you buy the thing in the first place, they're still there even if you don't figure it out right away. So keep that in mind. You know, man, this is gonna make me more efficient, it's gonna make me lighter, it's gonna make me quieter, it's gonna make me give me the ability to shoot around the tree. Remember that as you're trying to work through these things and figure out your system, that if you can figure it out, it's gonna make you a better hunter. I find that I don't know how to really relate this to any word other than I can say, if you kind of come in for a fitting, people get it a lot faster. I find this like with a knowledgeable person, Yeah, meet up with somebody who's used it and knows how to adjust that whatever else. I find this all the time at trade shows, that saddle demos, that anything where a guy can try it on, because I can look at somebody and be like, okay, you need this size, here's how you put on, here's how you do it. Sit in here, and then I'll walk them through a couple of the adjustments, and and they can feel and witness Okay, this adjustment, does this, this adjustment this, And usually within five minutes they're dialed in. But you're not gonna have that quick of a transition on your own. And it's interesting from the opposite side of it, being the friend showing to someone. And I alluded to this at the beginning, but this is one of the only things piece of gear I've actually been excited to bug my friends about. Like I'm like, dude, you need to try Like come, I got at my truck, come come try on to try it on. Seriously, you like it. Like vegans crust fits, they like to tell each other about the fact that they do it. It's it's something else. So here's the last question. And I asked my audience, the listeners what kind of questions they had for the saddle hunting gurus, and the most widely requested question that we need an answer from was this, And I wanted to have us all answer at the same time. So you say, if it's a yes, say I. If it's a no, say no. So I ask the question and then we'll go one to three and we're gonna answer. Okay, can you pee from a tree saddle? You can do one and two For me, I was you want some podcast gold let John described that process. I will not describe that process, but it's possible. Huh oh, I've done it. Many times. All right, well there you go, ladies and gentlemen, real careful. And one other thing on safety I want to throw in real quick. I have had two different fathers come to my workshops with their kids, teenage kids. One was a girl, one was a twelve year old boy, and the mothers would not let their kids hunt out at stands. They would only let them haut out of saddles because it was safe from a moment they left the ground to the moment they got back on the ground. And the one girl that came, they were from New York Dad and he brought his daughter and they were after this one big eight point and she ended up shooting it on and all days said in the rain. He didn't even want to go. She said, Dad, I want to go. We gotta go today. You gotta give me a rain soon. And she ended up killing that big away point was it was awful. We had an instance, uh, not that long ago, a couple of months ago, and uh we had a bunch of people around and we're trying on saddles and we had somebody in a saddle who had never been in one. Um we didn't know at the time necessarily, but he had a health issue, and in my backyard in his saddle, he went into a he was in the shop, it was on the concrete floor. He went into a full epileptic seizure. Um, zero control of any of his body parts. He kind of swung forward into the post, did his thing. We were able to kind of lower him down on whatever else, but that saddle kept him upright and off the floor. And and to add, he was not a small guy. He did not have the end seem of a beagle. He's too he's too fifty. If he had hit the ground, it would have been it would have been bad. So it was very fortunate that he was his you know, testing out that saddle. My mom was really paranoid. This is that mom that was a helicopter warrior. And so the only place I bow hunted for most of my younger life was right behind our house. We had three and a half acres. That's why I learned to bowhunt was our three and half acre property. And um we had a good number of deer and a few bucks here and there. But on her life, she would not allow me or my dad to put a tree stand up back there. You head out from the ground but if I had a tree saddle back when I was thirteen, I would have had a hell of a lot more bucks on my wall been spinning around like tethered. Got nothing to worry about? Are you an only child? No, I was the oldest though. Yeah. So with that, unless you guys have any other final thoughts you want to add. I got something. Um, there's a couple maybe for me that might might even be some of the biggest benefits out of saddle and I'll make it quick. But um, I guess I don't have any one type of style. The way I hunt. I often hunt from the ground. Um. I often go into um an area where I think a good deer is. And I don't have any plan as far as what tree I'm gonna be in. If I'm gonna be in a tree, um, you know, uh access all that stuff and with with the tree settle, what I like is that I can wear that in and I can without a problem. I can sneak through a standing cornfield without getting called it up on every stock. I can sneak through marsh grass without making all kinds of racket of my my tree stand um, you know, catching on the on the cat tails I can get into a spot and hunt from the ground and where my where my saddle? And I did that last year and and almost killed a great book in Ohio. Um I can carry my um my head's up decoy, and I can have the saddle on, and I could, you know, set that up, get twenty ft up in a tree. Or I can set it up, hunt from the ground and have everything I need on me or in my backpack, and I don't have to worry about taking this big twelve pounds stand off and and setting it. Or you know, if I spot, if I spot a buck bedded and now this might not happen often, I could stalk him if I want to with that thing on. And you know when we used it in we had we had those saddles on. We were prepared to get up in a tree. We were prepared to glass a book and sneak up on it. We were prepared to sit on the ground without any extra bulky gear that's catching on stuff. I mean you can adjust, uh you know, you know, if you're hunting on the ground or still hunting, all that stuff comes into play, and it's all in a very small package that's with you without the bulk and the extra weight of a tree stand. So that really fits my style. Well, I don't always get up in a tree, but I always have it on, so the option is always there. Well, what from our camp to where I ended up shooting my buck in Nebraska was over two miles? Right if I had been carrying a thirteen extra thirteen pounds stand bulky with me, what I've made it that far or what I've been like, Oh screw this. I was gonna stop in a mile and a half or something, but instead I was wearing my saddle. I made it the two two and a half miles or whatever it was. And then I spotted that buck and then it made a move, and then I realized there's no tree to get set up, and so I'm going to hunt from the ground. But I didn't have to worry about all this other stuff. I could just squat right in that cedar tree and super duper flexible, and then I killed that dear perfect. It's a fantastic point. We were with the other day, Ernie and I were in Iowa with the hunting public, and Zack Farrenball made that exact point, but he added a little caveat to it. He said, If I'm carrying that tree stand and it's and I'm going deep, he says, I almost feel obligate like I took it. I got to climb the tree and hunt out of it, right, And he said what you said, Andy, that you know, I'll wear the saddle now and I'll walk in and if I find a place on the ground, I don't feel bad about not climbing the tree or feel piste off that I just carried this boat anchor back here for you know, two miles. I think it's a really really it's versatile, but it's it's good insight to hear that. You know, a golfer doesn't carry one club a saddle. You don't have to be weirdos like me and Ernie that we only saddle and John like we only that hunt that way, a golfer carries more than one club. Right, So if you get a saddle, sometimes it will work for you and maybe sometimes it won't. You choose it when it makes sense, and choose it or leave it at home when it doesn't make sense. But the way you what you just brought up, Andy was really really good about you know, you could hunt from the ground it's really a versatile product. And I will say, for like in my position, having just started last year, after one year using it, where where I've settled as far as where I see saddle hunting fitting into my repertoire and moving forward is where I have tree stands already up from prior years. I'll keep hunting them because they're there, they're ready to go, but from here on out hunting new locations, whether it be mobile or even when I'm prepping spots like this year, I prepped a new farm and I only hung one tree stand because I wanted to have one tree stand for like a new hunter maybe who didn't have a saddle, just something otherwise. That was a bill. Bill, I got a question for you, Mark, Yeah, And you're the perfect guy to answer this because I remember last year when you did a little five or ten minute dissertation after you use the saddle um you had questioned how well it would work with the camera, and you found it to work very easy with the camera. A lot of people out there use cameras. Really good question. Yes, that was one of my big question marks leading into it. It sounded like it's gonna be tricky, but no, it actually worked better because when you're self filming, you've got this camera arm that has to attach to the tree, and when you're sitting against the tree, that camera arm is off to one side of you. So for me, I typically put up my right side so I could hold my ball and the left and I could adjust the flu ahead with her right to film. But when you're in that position you can film. You know, that's okay for using the clock idea again. But now I'm sitting with the tree is now at my so the trees at my twelve. Now I'm facing the six. I could film obviously from a six to nine, I could film maybe to ten or eleven, but you have to spin all the way around and then going to my left, I could film easily five four, three to one. But anything behind you you couldn't wrap the tree arm around you because there's only a couple of feet of lengthen arm. So really you couldn't film past three o'clock because you are in the way. So with the tree set, although I'm leaning out away from the tree, so now that arm moves inside of me, so now I can wrap around the tree much more either way to film. Never gotten the way and it was actually better than from a tree stand. That's my experience too. I've been filming my hunts for three seasons now. In I mean, I hate carrying a camera arm and it's stupid and bulky, and I hate it. Every every year I say I'm not gonna do it, and then I do it again anyway. But I have never once felt like the saddle got in the way of filming. It was. It was always easy. And again you can maneuver around it more too, with the whole fact you can move in the tree in the saddle better. That's another way. For some reason, the camera was in the way in my tree stand, I'm stuck with it. Now I can just swivel a just shoot around it. Well. And I've heard a couple of people too that if you have a dedicated cameraman that don't even bring an arm, they bring a shoulder mount camera because the saddle itself gives you so much flexibility to maneuver around the tree that you don't need the arm necessarily to make those moves. As uh, that's how is doing That's how they were doing it. Oh, you're saying for the guy who's filming. So if I'm a cameraman. Yes, I don't bring in arm anymore because I can actually just doing that use the body to adjust exactly. That's like it seems like a lot of movement to me, but maybe not. I've never tried it, but you know, interesting, don't where you're at, hands doesn't matter, doesn't matter. Just jump in the saddle with you and you just choke them out right. Oh, somebody did ask me, like, on a one to ten scale, how much more likely will my wife be into me if I use a saddle to hunt? We have answers. Yeah, I've got a second trial in the way, so question answer, and with that, I think we'll wrap it up. Thank you, Greg, John, Andy, Ernie. Absolutely thank you for the office. They appreciate it. And that is a rap one hell of a podcast, if I don't say so myself, I hope you enjoyed this one. If you haven't taken the leap in saddle hunting, you know, we were just hammering it hard for two hours, all about it. Um, you know what I think about it. I do think trying them on, feeling it out would be helpful. Feel free to reach out let me know what kind of questions you have. What concerns you might still have Hit me up on Instagram at wired to Hunt, or go to our Wired Hunt Facebook page leave a comment in question under this post. For this podcast, we'll do our best to answer those questions and get you more info if you need it. So until then, I know a lot of you guys are starting your hunting seasons here any day. Now. Wow, that's a crazy thing to say. I still can't believe it. As you're listening to this, I am either still driving or I've arrived in North Dakota and I'm setting up on a bluff doing some long distance scouting, and I am pumped. I'm so excited. This is the time of year we've been working towards four months and months and months, and now it's time to execute on that game plan. So I will leave you all with the most good luck I can possibly send your way. I'm gonna be sending all the good vibes that possible can't out to all of you folks listening. Good luck, have a great time, be safe, and until we chat next, stay Wired to Hunt.