00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark kenyans episode number two eight seven, and today I'm joined by John Dudley, host of knock On TV and the knock On Podcast, to discuss the concept of mastery and the work, ethic and focus required to achieve that level of success in the world of archery and bow hunt. It all right, welcome to the Wired Hunt podcast, brought to you by Onyx, and today we've got John Dudley with us. And he's a guy that likely needs no introduction, but just in case you're not familiar with him. He is the host of knock On TV and the knock On Podcast. He's competed in an uncom noble number of professional archery competitions, and he's one of the, if not the leading expert and coach in the modern archery world. Now, as many of you know, the summer, we've been doing this kind of series of episodes in which we're chatting with different elite performers across all sorts of different fields about the rough teams and training regiments and practices that have led them to success and whatever it is they do, and then finding out how that can apply to hunting. So today with John, we're gonna take that idea and apply to archery. And this conversation we discussed some high level concepts around the idea of achieving mastery in a given field, and then we hear yet another perspective on how to prepare for high pressure situations and then finally dive deep into a whole slew of different expert level archery questions. And uh, I brought someone else on the show to help me do that, because you know, I take my archer pretty seriously, but I'm no means close to where John's at. Um I've still got a whole lot of learning to do as many No, I've been working through target panic issues lately, and uh, just just kind of following actually a lot of things that John is teaching to try to achieve that. So to dive in deeper than even I could go, I brought my buddy and frequent contributor Andy may on to help me do that. And if you heard episode two four, you know how serious Andy takes archery and the attention to detail that applies to that pursuit. So that thing the case, he seemed like the perfect guy to join me and co hosting this one, and I think he'll give us an even more unique perspective from John. So that is the plan. In just a minute here I'll be joined by both John Dudley and Andy May, and we're gonna dive into a fascinating conversation that I think can help but make all of us better archers and hunters. All right, now, joining me and Andy is John Dudley. Welcome back to the show. John, Thanks man. How's it going. It's good. I think the last time we chat on the podcast was maybe two or three years ago. Um, so it's been a long time coming. By making the time to do this, Yeah, you're welcome. Time flies. I was thinking the other I was thinking the other day for some reason, I thought I was only doing my podcast for about a year, and then I started going back and I thought, Okay, yeah, I don't even want to I don't even want to know how I blanked out that much time in my life. I feel the same way, especially with a with a kid. Now it's like a year passes and I have no idea what happened to it. Um, it's easy to let it get away from you. So, given the fact that time is money, in time is our most valuable commodity, I'm thinking rather than you know, the usual chit chat beating around the bush type of stuff that sometimes happens on podcasts, I kind of want to just jump right into the hairy stuff. Are you are you up for that? Gem? Yeah, that's fine. So we're doing this series UM this summer. We're we've been talking to a whole bunch of different people, um that are high achievers or high performers or peak performers and in some kind of field um, and just kind of studying all the different things that make those people tick. So what are the practices and the habits and the routines, what are their training regiments? Like, what's what are these key things that make people, um, really good at whatever it is that they do. And then trying to figure out, you know, how can we take stuff from those folks and apply that to what we're doing as hunters. You are like a perfect example like this, it seems from the outside looking at least because of the success you've achieved on the archery side, and then how you've applied that to bow hunting too, And with all that being the case, on top of your own experience, just like kind of watching you from far and listening to podcasts and seeing different things you've done, Like you surround yourself with a lot of people like this, whether it's Joe Rogan or Marcus ab Orr, Cameron Haynes or Andy Stump, whoever it is. I just feel like you've been able to to interact with a lot of people that have kind of achieved this like mastery of something or another. And I'm kind of curious when you hear that term, John mastery in your context, like what is the mean to you? What does it mean to achieve mastery of something? And then what do these people that you know that have achieved mastery? What stands out to you is is being consistent across all of them? Well, definitely work ethic is the most consistent. I think. I think people that have that they naturally gravitate to each other as well. You know, all of these really cool all of these really cool personalities that I've been really fortunate to kind of continue to snow snowball with it just it I think a lot of that continues to snowball because of there's a really cool time right now with social media where if you are kind of a positive force that way, you're more exposed to other people that that like that, and all of those people want those kinds of people around them, and so they so they naturally reach out. You know, I continue, he tried to. I continually try to avoid relationships that are that are negative or people that don't follow through with what they tell me that they're gonna do. You know, if if someone promises me something, it's like, I I get it. Sometimes you forget, but there comes a point in time where you've given him enough benefit of the doubt. And you know, if every single time you go in their bedroom so to speak, and you're stepping over a bunch of dirty crap on the floor, I mean it goes back to my first my very first roommate when I was set to play college football. You know, his room was a dump. Uh you know, he never did dishes, and he was always you know, barely did laundry, and you know what, he barely got by with grades. He was always late to practice and just that sort of behavior. It's it's just like it doesn't help someone who's trying to be positive. It kind of goes back to the very first time if anyone ever started lifting. You know, you kind of want to have a lift or lifting partner so you can have a spot, and all of a sudden that guy calls you and it's like, hey, I'm not gonna go today, and you're like, okay, no problem. And then the next day he's like, yeah, I'm gonna go, but then he doesn't show up, and you just you end up like adjusting yourself so much to try to meet people in the middle to where it never works. And I just really feel like if you have a good work ethic and you're willing to just continually pound at whatever it is you want to do, then you need other people that help you stay on that path and not you know, carrying carrying other people on your path gets really hard. I mean, if you're a good friend, you do it for people that are in need of support at certain times and then you know, depending on crap they're going through, But overall, you want people that if you know, if you if you sprain your ankle along the way and you know you've got some stuff that's bogging you down with work. You need people that are going to be able to pick you up and carry it for a short period of time. But I also don't want to be the guy that's getting carried every day. You know. It's like that old saying that you are the sum of the five people that you spend the most time with, right like that that that rubs off on you. It seems like, do you do you think that applies even within something just like hunting, Like if I'm a guy who really really really wants to get better at hunting, um, I feel like lots of times you fall into just a crowd of like your hunting buddies because they're local or because yeah, by circumstances became friends. Would you ever go so far as to say, like, hey, if you really are passionate about trying and take your hunt into the next level, you should actually like proactively seek out ways to kind of grow a higher um um, what's the right word? Just a group of people that will push you even further even in something like hunting, No question, I mean, no question, it's a it's a timeless thing. You know, if I still wanted to hang out with my high school friends. I'd probably still be you know, walking around Johnsburg talking about, you know, when we won the game against Round Lake in the last two minutes. You know, I mean to be like, but you kind of have to get out of that. And honestly, I've had I've had guys that that I was friends with, that I did you know, videos with, or was in production with, that were really passionate about hunting. But there's just a difference between the guys that they go out, they want to party. You know, they might be all gung ho about it the first night, but then they stay up and drink too late. Then they by the third day they can't get up. And you know guys that uh, I don't know. I've been on remote, remote islands with people on a hunt where I'm tagged out, my tags punched and they're the only one with the tag. I'm staying there to help them and they're not wanting to get out of bed at sunrise or just like, let me know, if you see something it's like no, this isn't like yeah, I'll do it. I'm gonna I'm gonna do it for the next three days that I'm here. But that's gonna be the last time I do it. You know, Um, you have to be willing to step out of those groups if you don't see that that group's going in a positive direction. And it's really really hard, honestly. You know, that's why so many businesses, um fail because people go into business with someone that's a really good friend and it's very rare that both friends have the same work ethic. And I've had way more endeavors fail because I tried to bring someone else on with me versus saying, you know, hey, I've got this cool idea. I'm just gonna freaking do it. It's gonna be cool, and I'll just make my friends part of it. You know, if they want to be part of it, they can be part of it. But the only way it's gonna work is is if I make it work. And I think you know, you have to be able to just rely on your rely on your own work ethic through that stuff. Yeah, when you when you talk about work ethic, UM, I think it's really easy to think about the ways that applies to stuff like your business, or how it applies to staying physically fit. UM. When it comes to you know, let's say archery. This is one of those things that the average guy or girl like, that's a hunter out there, right, They see that as you know, a prerect meal, get out and go hunt. But then there's someone who takes it to the next level where that work ethic becomes um. I don't know if you want to call it an obsession, but it goes from just like understanding a basic level of proficiency to then like trying to achieve again like that mastery thing when it comes to applying that to archery. For you, when you shifted from whenever it was a long long time ago, when you went from just enjoying shooting art for you to then realize and this is the thing that you wanted to master. Was there like any kind of flip you switched um in inside your mind? It was just something that really changed for you when you realize this is not something you just wanted fun with, it's something that you really wanted to um become elite. Like what was the big change inside of you when he made that switch. The change for me on anything that I just saw a sudden get fanatic about is it's things that I'm not good at. You know, I have a hard time. I have a hard time walking away from something. If I suck at it, you know I need to at least figure it out where in my own mind, I'm content with how I left. And archery is that's how it started for me. I sucked at it. The only reason I competed was because the first tournament I went to I couldn't even finish. I lost all my arrows before I was halfway through that first three D shoot, and you know I left there piste off. I wasn't probably fun to be around. And I went to a Gander mountain and bought another dozen arrows that didn't even have money for so I could go back and just finished until I got to the fort target. And then the next day I was in an archery shop just saying, Okay, what do I have to do? So I never get embarrassed like that again. And with hunting, it's the same thing. I'm fanatic about hunting and it And if you've ever heard any of my friends talk about me, now, I know that I kind of feel that way. I guess I don't recognize kind of I don't know the vibes that i've that I put off. But when animals trick me, or when I feel like I'm in a position where I've like outsmarted everything and then all of a sudden, they like pull this wild card out on me and I get beat or I eat a tag. I'm there the next year, like it. It really bothers me. It's seriously, you know, I'm I keep thinking about my last trip to France when I was hunting uh chamois in the in the Alps because the conditions really sucked. Um. We had like melting snow, then ice, then freezing snow. We had three guys up there trying to chase these things. It was so loud, you know. The closest I ever got to one was like a hundred and six yards, and I feel like the fact that I was defeated that bad. I want to go back, not necessarily because I think his sham sham was cool, because they're kind of dinky once I started looking at them. But it's like I just want to be able to say, you know, I completed the task and I evolved enough to make myself better. And that's really what I What triggers anything for me is if I'm not good at it, I just I just really have to put in the time and put in the work to do it, and honestly, things that I'm not good at, I it's my best motivation for for just continuing to try and do it. Andy, I feel like a lot of what John's here saying is very in line with what you and we were talking about just a couple of weeks ago, right, with just that obsession with trying to find the little inches of ways you can get better or something that stumped you at once, right, Yeah, Yeah, I see, I'm hearing a lot of similarities. Um, John, I was talking to like, you know, when I when I fail on a bow hunt, right or I miss an animal or something that it it affects me, um so powerfully that I obsess about that mistake, um, you know, for for months and months and months, and then I try to do you know, try to analyze that mistake, find out what I did wrong, and then take the steps to improve upon that so that it doesn't happen again. And I think that kind of goes along, you know, like with what you said, you know, just uh, you know, maybe something that you didn't perform, uh, you know as well as you had hoped, and you just kind of fixate on that, and you work at it, you know, at nauseum, to the point where now it's become a non issue. Now it's actually a strength. Is there ever a point where that because I'm the same way too in a lot of ways, um, but is there ever a point where that focus on like the little thing you did wrong, that that can go too far, that that obsession can go too far, like how do you how do you john keep that from getting too negative? Um? And instead use that as a possible kind of jumping off point for getting better. Well, there's a saying that I tell my students, or it's one that I was taught years and years ago, and I had I heard it, but I didn't really understand it, but it grew on me. And even after, you know, thirty years since I heard it, I still practice of sit but you know it goes Um, remember the past, prepare for the future, but play in the present. And that's what I do. I try to remember the past, but I definitely don't have regrets on the past. I just remember it and I let it. I let it affect what I'm preparing for in the present. And um, you know, I think, Um, you know, I just I just learned from it. It definitely makes me feel competitive. There's a competitive side of me that makes me, you know, not want to do it again. But I don't. I don't let it um. I don't let it drag me down. There's for the longest time when I was competing, my biggest downside was when I would make a shot. And this was a lot more of the more of a problem when I shot three D archery, because I started it as a competitive three D shooters, so I started on unknown yardages, so I would feel like I knew the yardage to the target, I had set my sight, and I really feel like I made I executed a very good shot, and then the arrow would land in an eight ring instead of a twelve. And it was really frustrating too, because you know, I was there to shoot a bow, but even when I made a perfect shot, I was being penalized because I wasn't able to judge perfectly and I had a really hard time with it, and I was, you know, I broke a lot of stabilizers, just stabbing them into the ground, and you know, there was you know, there I was. And honestly, a big part of it was when I started competing. I I came off a football field, and when I played football, I played on both sides of the ball. So if I did something wrong as a quarterback, if I threw an interception, I could just freaking hit someone, you know, like the you know, the next play and yeah, And honestly, it was like it was like a relief. So then in archery, when you're just shooting this arrow and it hits a phone target, like and you do something really bad, I didn't really know how to how to have like a pressure valve, so my pressure valve would just be like stabbing my stabilizer in the ground, or you know. There was There was one time I was one arrow away from shooting a perfect three sixty at seventy meters at my h at my house in Wisconsin, and I remember standing, I was shooting seventy meters and I had one arrow left, and I looked down the spotting scope and there were all I needed was one ten and I would have shot a perfect three sixty at seventy ms, which for me at the time I was in like my early stages of shooting with the teams. I really wanted that because I wanted to be able to say that I had shot a clean seventy mem around, which I know would be very rare. And when I shot at nine, I just like did this hammer toss with my bow and just launched this thing almost to the target and it landed in the ditch and I left it there. I mean, I was so piste off that I left it down there. And I remember one of my friends came over and he's like, hey, dude, there's a whole bow down in the ditch down there, and I'm like, yeah, you can have it if you want it. And I remember um being at a tournament not soon after that, and I made this shot I shot at nine. I got really piste. I mean I was like on fire. And I remember um Tim Strickland walked over to me, who Tim at the time was coaching a lot of Olympic recurve shooters. Tim walked over to me and he goes, you know, until you learn that that arrow that left your bow, you have no longer you no longer have control on it. He's like, until you learn that, you will never grow as an archer. He looked at me, he said, the only thing you have control over right now is those errors in that quiver, and he turned and walked away, and I and it it just sunk in and I'm like, you know what, ship, Yeah, no matter what I do, I can't pull that arrow back. Like it's history. It's it's gone. I can't change it. So then it got to the point where I started to find humor in that. You know, there's been times at Vegas where people have kind of looked at me like, hey, man, shut up, you're talking too loud. But I've literally said, like, hey, guys, do any of you want to freaking shoot the tin because the last asshole wanted to shoot a nine um, you know. And it it changed my output, you know, my how I looked at my mistakes changed my output. So it's a it's a fine line. Some people learn some people learn better from being really mad and like being hard on themselves and then people And for me, I am hard on myself because I will train hard enough to not make the mistake again, but I also don't let the mistake affect the effect the time that hasn't even happened yet. Yeah, I feel like so much of this, so much of archery, whether it be just competitive or preparing for bow hunting, it's such a mental thing. Like, of course it's a huge physical component to it, but a lot happens between your ears. Um, and I remember hearing you talk once UM about I don't know how and I don't know to degree you take this, but um, ideas around meditation or things that can kind of reset your mind just a little bit to refocus or to deal with something went wrong. UM. You talked once about like spinning um, some beads or something on a bracelet, I think, to help kind of recenter yourself before taking the next shot. Um. Are there any things like that that you still do now to either clear your head before a big shot competitively or in the tree stand, or or any other things on the mental side that have helped you become a better archer and bull hunter. Um. Yeah, meditation, certainly it's important. And one of the things that's important from a meditative side is that you can learn to control your heart rate, so um, or you can you can help maintain it and lower it if you really need to. So if you're in a pressure situation, just learning how to like breathe and focus on breathing. Essentially, what you're doing is you're retriggering your conscious thought process so that it's not actively thinking about a fight or flight syndrome. It's uh, you're trying to re kind of reset your conscious to where it's only occupied by the actual physical process of breathing. And then it will help you, UM, it will help naturally lower that heart rate because you're not dumping adrenaline still. You know, it's when you it's when you intently think about, like, this is the bigas buck I'll have ever shot. What are all my friends gonna think when I show them this um or some people are like, oh my god, he's so big. I don't want to miss this thing, you know, And it's like those are those are keywords that that can certainly trigger UM the conscious to to go into that fight or flight state. And when that happens, then your heart rates accelerated, your breathing gets heavier. You know, you kind of put yourself in a poor position for UM having a positive outcome. I feel like for me when I had like I had a bracelet that had little pieces of carbon arrows on it, and they were all they were all pieces of arrows off metals that are off arrows that I had, like won medals with so to speak. So to me, they had meanings, so I would just focus on shifting those things all the way around. And um. For a lot of people that that do meditate ation, you know, they actually have like meditative like be bands for the risk where they're they're kind of just actively thinking about moving that bead from one position to another position, from one position to another position. And what they're trying to do is just reset the conscious focus on the breathing and bringing into play. Guys that struggle with um, guys that struggle with target panic or buck fever. These are a lot of times it's people that one have never learned some of these small tricks that do for sure help you, Um, they do help you stabilize, but they also help you be able to somewhat tolerate that feeling. And if you haven't felt it, it feels way way UM it's like overtaking. You almost feel like there's just no way you can get it done. And then as soon as you let that arrow go, even if you see it missing, there's this huge like rush of like, oh, thank God, I got rid of that arrow. You know, and I've been there, you know, I've been in those situations. It's it's a terrible place to be in. Um. But you have to you have to do two things to get out of those situations. One, you have to be able to recognize when it's happening and know some of these little things to try to reset it where you're focusing on your process again and you're not focusing on the prize. UM. And then the second thing is acclamation. You know, being in those moments to where your intensity is high and you're you're kind of putting yourself in these like game day type situations. More often it just gets the be to the point where it's not scary. You know, it's it was scary the first time I got behind the wheel of a car. I mean the first time I ever got on a dirt, Like, I was scared. When someone's like, okay, you gotta do like one down, four up, and I'm like, what the hell does that mean? Um. So, but the more you do it, all of a sudden you just realize, okay, you know, I just jump on this thing and go. The subconscious is like doing all of it consciously, you're just thinking about the having fun part. So you have to be able to acclimate yourself. And I think that's a big reason why events like the Total Archery Challenge are really important for people that are also trying to get more involved with hunting, because you know, you get in these situations where you're shooting with a larger group, Um, people are all watching with their binoculars. You know, you're not wanting to essentially, you're wanting to put on a good performance in front of people. Um. When that happens, you feel nervous naturally, But the more you do it, you'll acclimate to it. So I really feel like a big part of this is just continually working hard to um, to like feel that pressure and be in some of those situations, and your performance overall will just continually get better because you've been there. Yeah. Andy, I know that you've you've been in some of these situations that John's talking about here. Um, we've talked about you and me, but I know you had some some questions for John right around this topic. Um, any of those come to mind? Yeah, Um, well, John, going off what you were just talking about, and UM trying to you know, kind of focus on the process and keep you know, I guess anxiety I always described as trying to keep the anxiety low by focusing on the process. Um. You know in your teachings, you know, you you promote uh, you know kind of that that back tension pulled through unanticipated UM style of release, UM, which I've adopted, UM and it's been a huge help for me. But what I what I found, UM, is that style of shooting as opposed to like the you know, the command style. UM. You know that that often leads to you know, some target panic and trigger punching, that sort of thing. It will always lead to it. Yeah, and just call it punching because whoever you know, I know Tim Gillingham likes to call a command style. But I'm just gonna tell you it's it's a you know, I can call people someone who like, you know, they they have command beer drinking habits, but in the end they're just drunks. Yeah yeah. So UM, but what I found is like this this unanticipated style of shooting. It's it's a very relaxing way to shoot. Like. UM. So I always go back to my story. You know, I I've been both hunting a long time and I had a lot of success, and I was always a trigger puncher, and I did okay. Um, you know, I I made some good shots. I made some bad shots. UM wounded some you know animals. But I obviously, you know, after um you know, studying your ways, I wasn't in control and I adopted you know, your teachings and put in the work, and now I shoot an unanticipated release and I've just found that I'm just so much more relaxed in the shot. Not only you know, at things like the Total Archery Challenge what I also participated, but like in that hunting scenario with that big buck standing there, like I I'm adrenaline is high, I'm excited, But it's that that style of shooting for me is just it's such a relaxing thing because I'm just focusing on um, you know that pull through motion or um, you know, focusing and just letting my pin flow. UM. Do you agree with that? Is that? Yeah? Well, I mean I think it's really important that people get to the conclusion that in order to gain control, you have to first lose it. And you know you lose you feel like you're losing the control when you really start training to get a surprise shot, you feel like you you feel like you have to know when that's gonna go off. But the reality is you are so much more stress free when you don't know when it goes off, but you do know where it's gonna go. You know. There there's this transition of yeah, you're nervous about something new, I get it, and there's some you know, Honestly, it used to be way harder to find that, And the reason why is because years ago people didn't know proper technique. So when they would try to shoot attention activated release or HNE release and their postures completely incorrect, or they don't know how to anchor properly. They a lot of other variables were happening at the same time, and they weren't sure of where things were going to go. But you know, the thing that I take the most pride in right now is when I open up all of our hashtags like knock On, knock on Nation School and knock the amount of people that could literally mirror my form that I struggled for years, uh to you know, to kind of perfect that took like so much time I came. It was like decades of like doing that, and then it just got to the point where as I taught, I just kept simplifying this down and like boiling it down to where I could teach someone that had never shot a bow and they dug and your look like me in like an hour, and I'm just looking at him like, damn it, you know, freaking wish I could have done that. But then those same people, um, those same people, all of a sudden just can take over a release like that and start to focus on this um surprise, unanticipated shot and they just they don't even think about it. It just feels so good. And honestly, when you're shooting good, archery is so fun. And and honestly, when you make this switch, there's this short little window that all of a sudden, you make this one shot that sticks out as I've never made a shot that good. It went off so easy, I freaking everything seemed like in slow motion. That arrow just pounded the center. It's like you kind of just have this standout moment of oh, yeah, that's what everyone's been talking about. And then once you get that and you can start to repeat that, you realize, like, this is super fun. And then when you go out into a hunting situation and this bowl of a lifetime steps out and you're just sitting there thinking about your process, and you know your your posture is good, your stance is good, and you draw back, you anchor properly, and you settle into that peep and the pins right there, and yeah, you're a little nervous, but you get your finger on that safety. You're you or off the safety, you're on the trigger, and you're just embracing that little bit of shake that you got from being nervous, and you pull through and that sound breaks and you just know you're like freaking dead, like that, you're dead, Like I know, I don't have a question of where the SHOT's going because I know what a good shot is now. I mean, once someone has that feeling in a hunting situation, it's like the best sense of accomplishment. You just realize that you've like jumped the biggest hurdle in this entire sport. I feel like I feel like they're are some people that think that, you know, to get ready for hunting season bow hunting, they pick up their bow a month before the season, start shooting it, making sure it's still hitting on the zero, and then they're good to go. But to achieve what you just described, that level of proficiency and confidence. Um, I know it takes a whole different commitment. What how would you describe what it takes as someone to get to that level? What kind of lifestyle? What kind of commitment does that take? If you had to if someone like, hey, how do I get to this point? How would you describe what would be necessary? Um to get to that point? Yeah? I mean like not I'm not saying shoot their entered arrows today and tomorrow and do this thing, this thing. More so, like what kind of commitment or what what amount of your life daily practice? What does it take to make that next level jump to that point? Well, I think the biggest commitment you're gonna have to make is not making excuses for yourself. I mean, if you want to say, like, you know, hey, I kind of I want to train that way, but I'm I want to command fire when I go hunting, well, okay, you're wasting everyone's time, you know. Uh, do you really want to be better? Do you really want to be different? Because if you do, then you could easily do what I do every single year when hunting seasons over, which is probably the time of year where I developed the most poor habits. Or you know, I would say my shots instead of being like on a level nine or ten, which is what I strive for when I'm training a lot. During the end of hunting season, I'm probably at a six or seven. I haven't shot very much. I've only you know, pulled arrows back on animals or maybe check my site marks here there, and you know, in between hunts, um. You know, I feel like I feel like when I decided to reset, which for me, it's always around the first December. UM. I actually and this year I pasted it. You know. If you go to the Knock on our True YouTube channel, there's a series called School of Knock, it was twelve weeks of this week, we're working on this. This week, we work on this, this week, we work on this, and it it just builds you to exactly what we're talking about in essentially a twelve. For me, I'm okay doing it low and slow. You know, there's days where I might be able to shoot twenty eras there's days where my goal is to shoot a hundred UM. But I try to do that, you know, the majority of the week, and I work on that one thing enough to where I feel like I've embedded it and I can move on to the next thing. There's so many people, and I just had, um, a variable, a very reputable person on like social media, and someone who's actually very very training oriented, like that's his whole thing's training. You know. He was saying like, um, you know, I want you to build a bow for me. And I told him, well, I'm not gonna oil to bow for you the way you're shooting right now, because you know, it's a reflection to me. You need to change because you're punching the trigger doesn't look good, you know. And so he just said, well what can I do? And I said, take this, I spell it all out right here, focus on this, do all of this, and then then then in the end, you're gonna be set up in a posture and in a in a placement where if I build you a bow, I know it will fit you properly, because they've always got right now doesn't even fit them properly in my opinion. So, um, you know, one of the things he said was, well, I don't have twelve weeks. And it's like, well, okay, you can do it, and you can do it and three or four, but you know you're you know the mentality. Now there's like a lot of people that just want to hack and some things like this, if you want to if you want to achieve mastery, which is what I think the theme of this program is take hack and throw it out the window. If you're looking for a short cut, like this isn't the place, you know, if you're looking for a shortcut, you're gonna be like of the other people out there that are struggling. If you're if you're really wanting to do something to where you're have potential to be the best at it, and at the end of your you know, your last day hunting, you can look back and say I did everything I could to be the best hunter I can. Then you need to look for where you need to look for, like the ability to work at it, not the ability to hack it. You know, that's what you need to look for. Yeah, that's a great point, John Hey. Going back to the shot execution, I had a question, UM, So I sometimes go back and forth with this, and I kind of wanted to get your opinion. Um, Sometimes when I draw back and I shoot, UM, and I can achieve an unanticipated shot either way. But sometimes I will draw back anchor, and I focus on the pulling through motion like you described and just letting my just let letting the pin flow, letting my aiming be kind of subconscious, and I can achieve that on intipate unanticipated shot. But I can also switch it. I can actually focus on just letting my pin flow and just keep saying, let it float, let it float, and then my shot execution happened subconsciously. Is there one better than the other or is it okay if the if the result is an unanticipated shot. Either way, yeah, the the goal is a surprise shot, you know. And there's certain times where if you've worked on one enough, you're not necessarily having to think of the other, Like when I'm really in practice and hopefully by like the end of that week or that end of that series. And this is normally what I do during indoor season, is kind of when I train to to perfect my form by the last week, all I'm doing is looking at the target. I'm just staring a hole into the X ring. I'm not like I'm counting through my steps in my head, you know, I'm going through stance, grip, shoulder anchor pete, you know. Poll I'm like going through these in my head. But I'm not like consciously thinking about what my release hands doing or consciously thinking about the poll. I'm just letting the subconscious do that stuff. But that takes an extreme amount of time. The fact that you've committed to it and you've worked at it enough it's allowing you to sometimes think about the poll, but other times you can just think about the float. And honestly, if you embrace that float, then you're not worried about being in the pocket. You know. That's what I when I call once you let off that safety. In between when you let off the safety or when you start applying pressure on a trigger, that moment between then and when that arrow goes off, that's that's kind of the pocket. And really the only thing that's happening during that time is you should be building pressure for the shop to go off, and you should also be seeing some movement in the front half of that bow, which is gonna be what you're seeing through your site and being able to embrace that float and realizing that, Okay, if I have a magnifying glass of my scope, I'm gonna see more. If it's windy out, I'm gonna see more. If I'm tired right now and I'm still trying to get my reps in, I'm gonna see more. If I'm shooting up hill or downhill, I'm gonna see more. But that's cool. I just want to be here. Let this shop break when it is, and I'm like totally comfortable with that. When you can make that step and if you personally have made that step, dude, that is a Jedi level step. It's very rare that people get to that. And I mean, that's how I feel when I shoot. I really could care less what I would score in backyard practice. Honestly, I'd I don't even care what I'd score at any of these total archery challenges. What I do care about is that I make good shots. And if I feel any sense of anxiety or unease of my mind during that pocket time, then to me, that's not a good shot. And all I'm striving for is being up there and making good shots and and letting, you know, letting the rest take care of itself, because it's my opinion that it takes care of itself way more times than not if you just focus on that. Yeah, well, I one of the biggest takeaways are. One of the things that you described that was so helpful for me early on, UM was that you strive to make a ten on your shot execution, not necessarily hit the ten ring, but your your goal is to score a ten on your shot execution. And when I kind of shifted focus to that to try to make that perfect shot every time, it it was just like you said, it didn't really matter what my pin was doing, and my pin was moving around, floating around, but it was, you know, it was always coming back to where I was looking at and and no matter where in the process my shot broke, the pin always seemed to find the middle, you know. And and and I just it kind of it just got the snowball rolling. I could became more and more comfortable with movement and just focusing on that that execution. And I'm just surprised, you know, sometimes like you feel like that shot break and it feels like you're end was you know, two and just to the left and you go up there and it's it's still in the middle, you know. And I just it was just such a big, just a big realization for me of how badly I was doing things wrong, you know, for so many years if you see that enough, like I remember John Barklow. UM, I'm sure you guys now I remember John Barklow told me he said, Dude, once I saw that happen enough times, He's like, I just kind of took it as like benefit of the doubt that as long as I'm doing my job behind the line like that weird weird ship like that, I'll go down and it won't. It won't. I'm like, I'm more expecting it to like land where I wanted to, if I'm just being dynamic versus um being surprised that it is off, you know, because he said, I've just I've kind of surprised myself so many times by thinking, oh, I should have two of them that are way left, and then I get down there and they're in the middle, and it's like whoa, Okay, Yeah, that's that's an awesome feeling. John. You going back to, like, you know, um letting your pain flow and nick accepting movement. Is there a time where you do things to minimize that? Um? Like I was talking with Mark, I, I actually use a rear bar um on my bow hunting setup, and I know that you don't really promote that but um, so for me, what I was noticing we both shoot Mark and I shoot Matthews bows, the grip runs a little lower in the system. They tend to be a little more top heavy. So what I found is like keeping my bow level um and you know, minimizing uh pin flow. I needed to add some some sideway and some and some weight to the rear to kind of minimize that. Otherwise I was like correcting it with my hand, which I didn't feel comfortable doing because then I felt like I was imparting, you know, hand tork. But I was wondering if you could just kind of touch on that, like your thoughts on that, you know, with the scenario that I just described, but also just like minimizing pin float, Like it's okay to accept some movement, but when is it excessive and when do you try to minimize it? Well, I kind of just based it off the fact of you know, if it's like, um, I don't know. One way I guess the way I'll talk about is I have a jeep and my wife as a jeep. My jeep is my jeeps lifted with thirty five's. My wife's is stock. Like if there's a lot of wind and you have a wrangler and you're going down the road like you're gonna move around. How my wife's moves around is like manageable. How mine moves around is not what I'd want my site pin to do. So I think you kind of you thrive to have something that you understand. If you're not being perfectly still, you're gonna see some movement, But you don't want the movement like very sporadic. You want it in like almost like a continual thing, like if it's if it's always just kind of moving down and coming up, moving down, coming up, moving down, coming up. Some of that movement might not even be because of the bow. It might be what your brain is wanting to do. It's I always feel like when I cover an object, my brain because it knows that's where it wants me to hit. My brain wants confirmation that that objects still there. So the subconscious actually lowers that just enough to where you can peek and see it again, and then it allows you to go back up and then you it's like, I don't believe it's still there. Can I just take a quick look, Oh yeah, it's still there. It's kind of like the peekaboo thing. Um, I'm I'm okay with that. But what I'm not okay with is when it's like down and up right over up, up up down, you know, like I don't like doing that because I'm I'm fighting something. I don't like that. If it's consistent, then I'm okay with it. Um. If you have a slow float, then yeah, you can certainly slow it down with mass um. But mass is really hard to mass is hard to tote around the timber. Um. Mass is sometimes hard to to deal with. If you are committed to shooting every day, mask can can somewhat come back and bite you. The better thing that you should do if you're not wanting to shoot counterweights, which I personally don't like sidebars for hunting. I think they're very impractical. Um. I personally would rather you use the canting option on your bow site, which is what they've always been designed for. If you set your second and third access on your site properly, those second third accesses they should be forward of the site, which allows you to turn your entire site housing you know, kind of left or right. So essentially, if you do always can't your bow slightly to the you know top land to the right. You can take your site and slightly move the bottom of that site to the right so that your site is perfectly vertical even though you're limb tip is slightly leaning, and your second third access will still be correct if you do it the proper way. UM, I would rather see that to compensate for a quarter of a bubble, then I would someone you know, trying to drag. There's just no way you would use like if if you were on your belly shooting access, like I was two weeks ago in Lena. I I mean, I remember looking at Joe and I'm like, could you imagine having a side rod on right now? And He's just like you take it off and throw it after your first stock, And I'm like, yeah, exactly, Yeah you would. Um. You know, sometimes depending on the terrain and how diverse you are and your hunting, sometimes you may be fine. I mean, I've got I've got a guy that's kind of part of our knock on staff that's filmed for me for a long time. He shoots like a twenty in stabilizer and a side rod. It's in a shoot through riser all the time for hunting. It's it's like one of the weirdest looking things I've ever seen. But he's totally comfortable with it. He's a target shooter that loves to hunt, so he just kind of more or less takes out a target setup that just has fixed pins and in an arrow with broadheads on it. Um, and he deals with it. But he's also in Wisconsin sitting in blinds or tree stands, like I think he did an elk hunt himself, maybe a year ago. But when I look at all the different places I go, man, imagine trying to drag a sidebar through canola early season in Alberta. He I mean, there's no way he could do it. It's not practical. Um. Something you talk about brought to mind, UM a topic that Andy, you and me were talking about last night. I'm and steal and the stealing idea you had been discussing with me here, which was when we're talking about pin float on the practice range is one thing. On actually in the field it's another. And I imagine that I'm a different range is practicing behind the house. Of course, you see more float becomes more erratic the smaller that target is because of how much further you are away from the target. So I'm curious. John Andy had been posing this idea to me, which is, how do you go about what's the best way to go about determining your maximum effective range? UM? And there's lots of different Everyone tosses out different numbers, and people like to debate what's an ethical range, what's not, what's effective, what's not, etcetera, etcetera. UM. And as I'm practicing out there and you see how much pain float you get and you start to become comfortable or not comfortable at a certain level, how do you go about determining what what a quality effect or what your maximum effective range is? And how should someone out are listening go about trying and figure that out for themselves. Is it just can you do what you know? Some people say, get get a whole group in a pie plate in three inches in whatever? Or is there a more methodical way that you go about approaching that. Well, the way I approach it is I just straight up look at someone and I'm like, can you guarantee me that you can put one in the vitals? And if they're like, well, I don't probably not, I'm like, okay, Well, then there's your answer. Um, you know, I think if you practice at distances long enough, Um, you know, you know, I'm not going to tell someone, you know, if if someone can hit it nine out of twelve, nine out of ten times they can hit you know, a pie plate at a hundred yards, but yet at their local club as soon as someone shoots, you know, every at the end of every three D round we do the everybody throw a dollar in a hat and shoot the iron bucket twenty yards and that guy goes out every time. Well guess what, I don't care how many you can shoot out at tenant a hundred. The guy unravels as soon as there's pressure on him. So you know, you there. I don't think there's a clear answer to that, you know, I know that me personally. Um, honestly, there's been several shots with with Joe Rogan, for example, there's been several shots where we've been in a position and he's wanting to make a shot and I'm like, you're not making that shot, and he's like, would you make that shot? And I would look at and be like no, and he's like, you could make that shot, And I'm like, with with what's going on now? Like I remember having this conversation with him, Um in Lenna. I it was it was a deer at sixty yards. Now, you know, Joe is more than capable than shooting at sixty yards. He's more capable of shooting at seventy or eighty. You know, I've seen him shoot. You know, he's a good shot. He doesn't like miss targets. He's a good shot. Um, he's definitely you know, I wouldn't say he's great, but like he's he's above average. He's you know, I don't I wouldn't question that he could hit it in the vitals, but when there was wind, and I know he hasn't shot his bow enough to know what is what that arrow is gonna do with a quarter bubble or half bubble. Um, it's an axis which they can jump through their own butthole to get away from an arrow if they want to. Um, you know, there's there's like factors in there where I just looked at him like, dude, I wouldn't take that shot. I shoot sixty yards probably fifty arrows a day in my backyard. But there's no like, there's no way I'd be able to tell him, And honestly, even when I when I was stalking in on my deer with Cam. We had the bucket fifty five yards and I'm like, I'm not gonna shoot him that far. And I freaking took the chance of belly crawling to the next tree where I could get behind it and and and kind of come up because I really didn't want to take a shot that far. I mean, because it's not about what I'm capable of doing. It's about what that animals doing. And if you hunt long enough, you know, you know, shooting a white tail deer in Wisconsin is a lot different than shooting a deer that's coming to a white tail deer. It's coming to a feeder in Texas. I mean, you know, a fifty yard shot at a white tail up here in the Midwest, it's just out in a food plot, cruising along, you know, chowing down on some turnups, no problem. Fifty yard shot at anything intact, like a deer in Texas it may not even be possible. Dude, I don't even know, but I wouldn't try it, you know. So it's it's really hard. You have to you have to have the you have to have the knowledge in the experience of being able to not only read the animal, but no the animal, and then more importantly like small factors like little wind guts you know, hasn't been raining. Do you know what your bow does when there's a little bit of water on your on your cable slide? Did you have your bow in the back of the truck going down the gravel road in Alberta where that red dust gets all over everything and it starts to slow down your speed. Little things like that, like, they all factor in. So there's just no way you can I can tell someone this is your effective distance? You know, Andy, where's your head out on that? Yeah? That makes a lot of sense. Um, you know, I it takes me back to uh, the last two years in Wyoming antelope hunting. Um. The first year, you know, I was feeling, you know, very confident, you know, shooting at some longer distances. I've been doing it for a lot of years practice, and I felt very competent at a certain range with conditions you know that were perfect. And the first year I I did shoot an antelope you know, at a longer range. It was dead palm, he was feeding. Um, you know, the situation was perfect. Fast forward to the following year, completely a different scenario. It was very windy. Um. I kind of went in there maybe a little overconfident, and I missed a shot um at the first antelope that I that I shot at, and it was it wasn't as long as that other shot. It was actually quite a bit shorter um. But it was windy and it was dusty, like you were saying, and it was you know, it was blowing me off target. And you know, I tried to wait for the wind to die down and and make a good shot, and you know it it blew. Not only was it blowing my bow off, it was also it's also just sailed my arrow. And I was like, oh my gosh, like what what am I do? And like that was a really dumb mistake and I and I realized that right after I did it, and I was like, you know, this is a completely different type of situation and I'm gonna have to get in close to get it done on these uh, you know, on an antelope this year. So I agree with it. It It just kind of goes back to, you know, the conditions and the whole scenario and and you really have to kind of take a look at that and you know, and uh, you know, I guess to make that make that decision with the factors that you have there. Yeah, it's a case by case type situation. Um. It's interesting when I yeah, I feel like I listened to you Andy talking to John, and I know you followed John's um ideas and practices very closely over the years. And and I've looked to you Andy as as a local mentor of mine. And I'm a few years still behind where year and I'm just figuring out how to I I had the tiger panic issues over the last couple of years. I've now switched to trying to implement at the anticipated release, been been using the silver back this year. John really liking that. Um. So I'm early in this stage though, and you're much further along Andy. Um as you're as you're looking at this, and as as you've heard John through his podcast and his YouTube videos all these different things he is putting out there. Um, you're at that. I think you're in the high end of the typical hunter out there. What are the next level things that you're still wondering from John as far as how to take your you know, I don't know if you've got a couple other ideas like that you're still struggling, You're you've got these small little inches, these little details that can probably take you to that next level. Um, what are those other things you're curious to hear from John? Because because I have all sorts of questions, but they're pretty basic still because I'm, you know, early in this journey. What else? What else do you need to know? Andy? Yeah? Well, well real quick, I wanted to tell John this is a really special podcast for me because, um, I I got tuned into your podcast I think you had just launched episode two and that was that was uh an episode that really cleared some things up for me. I was struggling with target panic really bad, and that two thousand thirteen, two thousand fourteen, uh, you know, two thousand twelve right around there, and UM, you know, I so I identified it pretty early, and you were the one guy that you know, helped me make sense of what was going on. And it was just so influential to me over the years. And I, you know, I jumped in, you know, head first, and I've never looked back. And I, you know, I was struggling with enjoying archery and now I love it more than ever and it's really spilled over into my success as a bull hunter. So thank you for that, um. But also, like you know, for those guys that maybe are what you would consider higher level, that have mastered this type of shot execution, you know, the guys like Joe or the guys that have you know, been doing it for a long time, what can those guys do, those guys that have already mastered that, what can those guys do to squeeze out that last little bit of accuracy or continue to improve? Is there is there something that you know, maybe you you kind of we're really high level archers that you coached to take them to that next up. Well, with really high level archers that end up eventually hitting some type of slump, what's amazing to all of them is that what I naturally do is just try to reset them back to the very beginning and instead of trying to instead of trying to like make adjustments afterwards, it's like take everything away and go back to like here's the shot process, Here's what I want you to think about. Here's a string. We're gonna just execute on a string. You know, I go back and try to just do a complete reboot and then obviously once they get the confidence that in, then they're able to get back on track. Um. Sometimes for the elite level guys that are somewhat struggling, there's a couple of things that can happen. One, they can just have expectations of themselves that they may not be capable of. Um. You know, it's it's like, as much as I want to be able to do, as much as I want to be able to go out and run, like like cam Haignes, I mean, I'm six man, no offense, I'm i am beat to the ground if I go out and try to put miles on like that every day. Like, there's certain things where I'm like, you know what, I feel like, I feel like I'm good when I'm running, but I'm you know, I'm I recognize the fact that I'm I'm kind of made to just be amid a mediocre runner, But I feel like I have a good technique and I'm good. I feel like I'm definitely doing it good enough to get by. UM. The other thing is some elite level guys or guys that have done it a long time and maybe they know what to do. Some of them really don't put in the time that you have to to be polished like some of these people. And that's a big thing for me. You know, when people ask me why I don't compete, there's just I don't have the time. You know, I would have my my twenty year old self would have beat would have beat me right now because my twenty year old self shop four or five, six, seven hours a day, and even if I wasn't doing it right, I did it wrong consistently and because it was just time and repetition. So I think as long as you're really recognizing the like for example, there's some people that have like natural like they're naturally shaky, like when they go to do things. You know, have you ever seen people where their hands kind of shake. If they're really focusing on something like that type of person, they're gonna deal with that, and it's it's gonna be hard to be is accurate as someone that's shooting a bow that their pin is super stable and they're making good shots. So you kind of need to be truthful on your self reflection of you know what, I'm really solid. I feel like I'm making great shots. I practice all the time, then okay, well, now your candidate to talk about a third thing. How much are you actually putting into fine tuning your arrow setups to really match your bow? And do you know your boat set up is set up properly to where it's maximizing the groups that your arrows can provide based on how the two of them team up together. Um. So some of those small little points start to come from small little things like you know, how many gadgets do you have constantly? There's some people that are just gadgety, people that have like you know, they have like weird d loops. They want to kiss her button, they want some kind of a weird new peep site. You know, they want this site that's got a fiber optic dot in the middle, the sticker that's a ring, um, you know, all these different things that are kind of, in my opinion, gadgety rather than just simplifying it and really focused on being able to um, really focusing on being able to kind of perfect what they're doing and know if what they're doing is uh, is gonna work. Um. There's people out there and I've done this. I've posted a picture a few days ago of this target bail and there was like three different groups of arrows on it. Each of those groups of arrows were all shot out of the exact same boat at ninety but every every single arrow group had a much different result on the paper. And those results were based on how those arrows matched the boat. And that's one thing you really have to know about. Andy. I know we've got we're running a time here, so I know you had one, maybe two other questions on this line of thinking. I'll let you let you send one more to wrap this up. John, like you, you know, everybody kind of looks up to you, you know, as a as an archery coach, and you know we see you make you know, great shots consistently and and uh you know certainly you know, highest of the highest far As archery skill level. But can you tell us I just want to kind of like humanize you a little bit and and ask you, um, you know, give us a reason why John Dudley might miss might miss um? I miss all the time? Okay, Well, what's what causes you to What causes you to miss? Um? Lack of practice? I mean lack of practice, uh, you know, lack of practices. One when I break down you know, a lot of the things that I talked about, I talk about them because I'm dealing with them. You know, when I make a post talking about the importance of shoulder position and how creeping, how creeping causes you to miss and where that miss is gonna go, it's because I've been doing it all morning, you know. Um you know there. That's that's why I practice. That's why I did that School Knox series because it's like, you know, and there were days where I showed people like, I can't shoot a three hundred to day, I can't, But my goal is to be shooting three hundreds with high you know, high upper twenty x counts by the end of this period. Because you know, I'm realistic. I know that I can't just pick up my boat anytime and shoot clean. Now, am I gonna? Can I sit down my bow and pick it up and be above average? Yeah? I think I'd feel comfortable saying that, But you know, I certainly do miss. You know, there's times where as soon as the shot breaks, I'm like, damn, it bubbles off, you know, and being able to to recognize, like why you miss is very important, and also being able to recognize what actually like some type of a technique or flaw that's broke down, like right as the share the arrows breaking. That's really important too, um, because it helps you identify you know, if I make a shot and the shop breaks and I kind of see the arrow come out a little sideways, like instantaneously, I'm thinking like grip pressure, and then all of a sudden, Oh, I feel the front of my riser pushing really hard on the front of my index finger. Dang, I was freaking putting a little front finger torque on that thing. Um. You know, I learned to recognize those. You know. It's not like I can't say I slop arrows around all day long, but you know, I really strive to get in into a rhythm and into a flow state and into a zone. And sometimes it may take meros to get there. Sometimes it may happen right off the bat, um, you know, but I certainly miss. I did a live feed the other day, and as I was talking, I was showing people how my sight work turned around and made a shot at thirty yards but had still had my sight set on fifty and just you know, totally blank the target. So you know, it's it's common for me. You know, it happens. I'm not I'm not a robot um. But again, this kind of goes full circle back to what we talked about at the very beginning. Is now I'm in a whole new position where it's like, you know what that happens, but at least I know why, and I'm not gonna let it happen on the next arrow. I'm gonna make corrections. And I think if you have that approach, then eventually you'll find this little click where you're just gonna be making really good shots. And sometimes you'll go out and be like, man, I couldn't miss tonight, And those are the best feeling days. But there's also days where you go out and you just feel like your shoes coming untied all the time. And honestly, on those days, I just kind of embrace the suck and just say it's not meant to be tonight. You know, I'm I'm shooting some hates. I really wanted to shoot twelve, so it might be a good night for me to go and you know, get some of these fletchings repaired, and get get this de loop you know, replaced, and and I'll do something archery related but not necessarily reinforced bad habits. I feel like everybody listening to this if they're a bowl hunter, which probably ninety seven or some of the folks listening to this one or bow hunters, we all want to get better. We're all at different levels though we all have kind of a different starting point where we're at right now, but we're all looking to take that next step. And you talk to people all the time that are trying to take that next step, and they look to you to figure out how to do that. Um, you've got to hear a lot of things from those people. You must hear explanations for why they're not doing that, or problems or questions or concerns or excuses. Is there something that you oftentimes just wish you could tell these people. Is there one thing that just jumps up over and over is like that challenge you wish you could give everyone, or the thing like everyone's looking for the magic bullet and you could say, well, I challenge you to do this, or or here's one thing I really wish people would start working on, would focus on. If you could leave people with one final challenge today or one final parting piece of advice that seems maybe somewhat universal. What would that be John, to wrap us up here, be honest with your work ethic. And again this is going right back to where we started. So there's people that feel like they might put in the effort, but deep down are you really like can you really answer that question? People that come and say, you know what, I tried the silver back, it just wasn't for me, And it's like, how long? How long did you try it? While I tried in a week? Okay, Well how much do you shoot in a week? You shoot three days a week? Well, yeah, maybe you know, sometimes four days? Okay, So you tried it four days and then you gave up on it. So that's not a fair time. So you really have to be truthful to yourself of what is your work ethic? And if you know your work ethics good, then also be truthful to yourself of are you looking at the right information. So I'm confident that if you're looking at the information that I give out, I'm confident that I'm giving out information that helps pool. And I'm confident in the information that I talked about or I don't talk about it. Um and if you can answer yes to both those things. I'm confident I did what you told me. I'm confident I'm putting in the time. Um. Then the last thing I'm gonna leave you with is trusted. This past weekend, I was actually um driving through Arizona and uh, well I drove. I flew into one place and I drove to another, and then I ended up flying out of another. Um. Actually I flew to one. Yeah, I picked up to fly to another, then drove to one, then flew back. But anyway, um on, while I was there, I was in Tucson, and UM, the buddy I was with, I'm like, I said, does PSC still have their like pro shop and their outdoor range? And he said, yeah, yeah they do. And I said, I'm like, I want to see it, because I said, the last time I was here was I think it was twenty five years prior. And uh and I remember I remember shooting there with like Terry and Michelle Ragsdale. They came out and shot after work like it was. It was pretty cool. So I walked into an Archer shop. There were several guys in there that once I started talking and saying, like I remember, Terry was over there, and Michelle was over there and they heard my voice and they kind of looked and they were like, oh my gosh, you're in here. And a couple of them had silver backs, they had knock on fletchings, and I said, oh, this looks really cool, and he's like, yeah, I did it all myself based on your videos. And just being able to say, dude, you did perfect, Now just trust it and shoot it. I think that's one of the biggest things for people, and it's the biggest things for high level archers that get in slumps that end up coming to me is all they want is the reassurance of what they're doing is right, and way more times than not, what you're doing is right. You just really got to put in time and put in undistracted focus. One of the things that's hard right now is people, um, people take and I'm I'm I'm bad about this. There's times where I practice where I'm uninterrupted and I'll just make a I'll make a picture post about a a shot that I've done, um that was an hour or two hours earlier. I'm not like trying when I'm doing live feeds, are trying to make posts or texting, my friends are talking during my practice. It's very uninterrupted. It's very interrupted practice, and it's not very good. Same things true with the weight round when people are like, dude, I go to the weight room every day, but I just never really change. And I'm like, hey, man, normally you're doing like three snapchats, you're freaking on Facebook, you're on Instagram, like you know, you're not actually going in there and being effective at what you're doing. So I just want to urge people that if you can look at yourself in the mirror and say I am I am willing to put in the time, and I'm confident that I did everything that you told me and I'm not like making excuses for things that might not feel comfortable this second, then the next thing is just trusted and just put in time because it takes. It's it's a proven fact psychologically it takes at least twenty one days to create a habit. So you have to commit to at least that before you can feel like you're not doing something the right way. And that's like you said, this is a perfect way to wrap it up, kind of coming full circle talking about the importance of that ethic developing these good habits, sticking to your guns on things like this, and just doing the work. So that the final thing I got to ask John is just where can people find more of this information from you? You talked about the fact that you're very confident that the information you're putting out there is quality and spot on, which which Andy and I can both personally test to. So so what would you recommend folks check out first to learn more? Um? Well, if you go to the knock On Archery YouTube channel, um, you can easily just type in, type in a subject that you're thinking about, you know, and then maybe put my put my name in front of it. Just John Dudley, how to shoot release, John Dudley, peep site, John Dudley anchor position, and you're there's just hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of videos in there on do that you know, are are about that? You know, how to fletch your narrow, how to set my sight up, how to tie a de loop, how to tie a knocking point, I mean anything, just put it in there and then every day, like my most my most frequented UM place is Instagram. You know, it's at knock On TV n O c K O N t V. I definitely post as I'm practicing, I post results afterwards. I do a lot of live feeds on there and make sure notifications are on because in the middle of practice, if I've made a mistake and I want to talk about it, I'll go on a live feed and and show you, or I'll also talk about things that I might be doing in the field or things that I might be packing for a camp. So that's really my channels. And honestly, if I wasn't doing what I'm doing now, there's no way I would be out there on these things I'm I'm there for I'm there for the archery community in the bow hunting community, so if you're interested, those are the places to be perfect all right, John, Well, can't thank you enough. This is as usual, always a lot of interesting stuff, a lot of education, and Andy and I both really appreciate it. So thanks for taking this time. Yeah, thanks you guys. Thank thanks John. And that is it for today. I gotta believe you're gonna leave this one inspired to start kicking some butt, whether that's with your bow or out in the woods. So don't let that energy fizz away. Get out there, and get after it hunting season. It is just on the horizon's gonna be here before we know it. So until next time, thank you for being here, and stay wired to hunt.