00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyanton's episode number two hundred and sixty six, and today on the show, we're joined by Kip Adams of the Quality Deer Management Association for discussion of the state of white tails in two thousand nineteen. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Onyx. And today in the show, we've got Kip Adams, the director of Conservation for the Quality Deer Management Association, and we're gonna chat with Kip about the recently released two thousand nineteen white Tail Report. Um. We've done this almost every year since the beginning of the podcast. Each year Quto made puts out this report and then we kind of have this state of the white tail discussion with Kip, kind of like the State of the Union address, but this is like the state of the Union for deer. UM. So that's what's gonna happen here shortly. But I do have Dan the Man Johnson here uh for our pregame show, which we haven't got to do in a few weeks so, and this is future mark here. Quick heads up if you do not care to hear about the random stories and crazy thoughts and deer hunting and shed hunting plans that Dan and I have that we discussed here in our pregame show. If you just want to get to the interview the kip, you can fast forward to maybe like the seventeen and a half eighteen minute mark to get right into that. But I highly suggest you stick around for the weirdness. It's been too too long. Dan, and I've actually been thinking a lot about you lately. I don't know if you could. I don't know if you could feel that. And and I've been thinking about you lately late at night while I've been laying in bed. I think I've been feeling that same way too. More don't want to, but it's for it's for very different reasons that I imagine why you're imagining me is because alright, just bit it out, start to watch. I'm actually reading a book where the character's name is nine fingers. Really yeah, guy's name is Logan nine fingers. And now just the whole time, I've just been picturing you, know when you I don't know. You don't read much, can you read? So what I think when you when you read books, lots of times you imagine what the person, the character might look like. So I just imagine this guy looking exactly like you. So you are this character in this book. Um, pretty badass character though. You You walk around with the sword and you kill a bunch of people. So so yeah, you're you've got a good character. Um, it's a good book. It's called I think it's called By the Blade Itself or The Blade Itself something like that, kind of like a Game of Thrones type book. Kind of nerdy but but gritty. I've been doing some Game of Throne in Yeah. I like the show. Yeah, I just started watching it last month. So how far are you into it? I'm on season three right now. Season three okay, so no spoilers. I won't tell you too much. But it's good. It's really good, and it gets you thinking about Yeah, I've been thinking about you. I'm glad you're you're watching Game of Thrones now. And um, if you pick up reading at some point and this will be a book, I'll send you too as well. So so that's all I got for the introd egge, folks, We're gonna go to Kip Adams now Dan Johnson and then uh and then you hang up all right like your style? How are you? Man? It's been too long. I know, I know, I don't know. Has uh your mouth been watering as much as mine to get out and do some shed hunting. Yeah, man, that is exactly what I was hoping we talked about, because that's especially we just had. You know, I'm sure you guys had the same thing. Tons of snow and cold and then now this warm spell, so all the snow has melted here, and um, it just looks like prime as you would say, scooping. It looks like prime scooping weather or scooping conditions, I should say, right, I'll tell you what an Instagram. There's some guys are not close to me, but in I guess in Iowa who have been finding some good sheds already. So it makes me want to get out even more. I know, I am very tempted to go out and do like an early walk, you know, at least for me. I never want to go out too much too early and start pushing things around before most of you have dropped at the same time, though, like you said, there are antlers out there, and you hate to have antlers laying around and then get chewed up. You know, right right, when do you think you're gonna start? When's your first shed plan? Well, that's funny, you asked Mark Kenyon, because there is a chance if I can swindle my mom into watching the kids, I might go on a walk Saturday with the wife. Nice main farm down south. Yeah, and not dig into the timber at all, but probably just the field edges, um where all the corn was this year, and we had some late corn and I even think we had some snow on the ground before before the harvest. So the last time I checked there was still I mean this was December, but uh still a lot of corn left on the ground from when they did the combining, and uh the beans were standing late. So hopefully some of the pods and stuff dropped off and um, hopefully that just kept the deer in the area late season. And I have kind of a repeat of late February last year when I found it was nine in one day. You know, what's the what's the situation in that little honey hoole? Is that where you saw the good food still on top of the ground. Right, it was the same field, but the let's see, this year, the corn was closer to the road as opposed to last year it was closer to the back fence line. And I'm not sure, you know, I don't know if you've ever tried to shed hunt in corn stubble. Yeah, it's not easy. And I felt like if I just go back and forth every row, maybe i'd try to, you know, i'd find some matching sets, but you know, try to match up, especially the big one. But you know I'm not going to do that, just not enough time. So you know, you hit the you hit the power places, and you move on the buffer strips. Right, absolutely. Yeah. I um, I'm a little concerned at least for my local shed hunting because you know, on the main Michigan spot, I have an average of one shed antler a year across all the properties that can shed hunt in that area, and I already have that one shed for year. So I'm worried that I haven't even started shed hunting. I have the one shed because I think I told you, um neighbor shots that buck survivor, right, I told you that story and he found a shed on the property I can hunt while he was tracking the deer, so he gave me that shed. Um. So I'm a little worried that I haven't even started yet and my shed ending is already maxed out. So traveling will probably be the name of the game for me. But yeah, I think probably mid February when I'll start maybe hitting it hard, but I'm probably tempted to do a little edgewalking, maybe even this weekend too. Yeah, it would have been nice to get out there a little bit, even before the snow melted, just to see their travel patterns through the snow and see almost where you need to concentrate. But man, a majority of the snow, I think like six of the snow is already melted, and even down south is even more so. Um. And it almost sounds like we're gonna get some snow later tonight or in tomorrow a little bit, and then it's gonna warm up again and thaw again. So Saturday could just be a mud fest. Um, speaking of snow coming in and melting off and then getting poured down again. I am trying, well, it's hard to say right now. In the past, I've always playing my Iowa shed hunting trips based off of like when the group's gonna go, and and kind of try to coordinate things with some some of my buddies here in Michigan, so we all drive out together. But I think this year I'm gonna try to stay a little more flexible and try to just make it out there when it seems like you guys have a good snow melt and just make sure that the conditions are right. Um. But I'm gonna try to get out there for like a week maybe and maybe early to mid March, depending on conditions. So we'll have to see if your schedule lines up at all to come do some walking with us again. Yeah. Absolutely. I don't know, dude. I just the older I get, the more I love hunting. I don't know what did it? Why? Really? I mean I love doing all the other things like early season scouting and doing the tree stand work and the running gun and the actual hunting, But there's something about shed hunting that I just I don't know. I'm drawn, Tom, I'm right there with you. Um. I know you don't have a whole lot of flexibility and schedule and stuff sometimes, but if you can somehow sneak away and you want to do a long drive. I'm hitting out heading out west again for some shed hunting in late March two. And um, where are you thinking? Probably North Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, somewhere around there, um, give or take. I don't. I have zero set plans yet, but I'll probably go to Montana for sure, because I'll go there for some media related stuff and hit some of the properties I know around there. Um, but I wouldn't mind trying to extend it and hit some stuff on the way or something. Yeah. Absolutely, And that's a good transition because as of right now, other than thinking about shed hunting, I've all so been doing a lot of thinking and early planning on what I'm gonna do for my Western trips next year. And I'm going to do the elk hunt, right, and then I've got the tentative. Right when I asked the wife, she was in a good mood. So I might be doing a second Western trip, a mule deer hunt in South Dakota. So if I do make a like a Western marchish type, you know, shed hunt thing, I think that what I'm gonna try to do is go to some of the places that I've scouted through Onyx and get you know, get some boots on the ground and at least just get a lay of the land out there and you know, call it shed hunting, but really scouting without giving out too much detail. Are you talking like southwest south central? Like it must be southwest right for Mely's. Uh, well, they have Muley's all over South Dakota. So I've there's basically if you cut the state in half, east west. I've had people give me information all like just all on the west west coast or west side of the state. Yeah, so north or northwest, southwest? Um? North, I think it's northeast of the Black Hills. Yes, so okay, yeah, that whole I mean, that whole area is pretty awesome. I mean you would you would love that terrain. I drive through it a lot when I'm going back and forth from Montana, and every time I drive through, I'm just kind of salvating, just wondering why aren't I why I'm not hunting here right right? And that's the you know, I got, I got some good intel, I got some good you know that I started doing my research. Um, and now it's just a matter of making it happen. Uh, I don't know. That's so I've been spending a lot of time on on X lately. It's easy to get sucked into that. Oh man, it's so easy to Yeah, I got I've got like two different things that will end up sucking my time in at night. If I'm not geting a book, I'm either looking at on X, looking at like public land stuff, trying to find different places to hunt, look at river bottoms or scouting this thing or that thing, or I'm looking online at properties for sale. I'm doing like one of two different things, either looking at properties I dream of buying, or looking at d I Y stuff I want to dream of exploring, right, um, and not sleeping. So we're both we're both inflicted in that way. Um, how did you manage like this? Are you cutting back on some of the rut stuff? No? Um, I don't know yet, right, I mean, I don't know. I there, I'm to the point now with I think I told you a little bit about this, But I'm to the point now with the Sportsman's Nation that I might be getting close to being able to step away from it, right and step away from my job and and potentially do this full time. Uh, you know, the next two or three months, probably actually up until June will tell me a lot. And if I can get the things that need to be gotten done done, then I'll be able to have a lot more freedom in my schedule. A k A hunt in Michigan, All right, I was just gonna say that was the next thing out of my mouth, right, so I would, Uh, I gotta make a lot of you know, some things happen yet, and if I can make that happen, you know, everything becomes a lot more flexible. And um, I really want to do I really want to do this mule to your hunt, which I think I'll probably be doing any way, regardless of if that happens. You know, my wife has given me I'm in a good mood now approval. I don't know if you know what that means. But when you take it and run though, right, that's right, that's right. So she'll be mad at me then, But right now she said, yeah, that's you know, she said, yeah, that's okay. But you're you're gonna do what you want anyway. So I don't know, I don't know what that means. That means you're setting proper expectations. Dan, that's good. Exactly What a sound like though, is like you're taking this week long trip to Colorado for elk. You're gonna spend however long it's gonna be out hunting mule deer. I'm gonna draw an Iowa white tail tag this year. It sounds like someone should be watching over your Iowa ground, taking care of it, monitoring trail cameras, taking a deer too, to make sure it's being properly managed. I know a guy that might help you with that. How many points do you have? I think all three. I don't know if that'll get you in my spot, but it might. I don't know. I'm in I'm in the zone south of where you typically hunt. Yes, yeah, so yeah usually I think that from what I've always heard that that was like a three or four point zone probably so, um so yeah, it's that's definitely not sure thing. I'll probably apply for the usual spot I do, um because it should be a sure thing there. But um well, that'd that would be. That's something we need to talk about a little further afterwards, because if you have enough points to draw my zone, I might be able to find some spots for you that you know they would, they'd be better than anything. Probably you hunted up in that north zone. But you might have to fight some fight with some other people. But you're doing that already. Yeah, a bunch of people. Is it like when you say fight stuff? Is it like arm wrestle? Is it? I mean, what kind of fight are we talking? Because I'm not well equipped for nest arm wrestles, but I'm kind of quick. I'm slightly surprising in certain ways. I might be able to take a guy. Yeah, you're tall, you're lanky. The lanky guys always seemed to get it done long arm, long arms arms right, so at least when you're trying to slap them to get away from you, you can keep the distance. And that's my style too, lots of slaps. Um. Yeah, dude, we should talk about it some more. Um My buddy Dustin was supposed to co out in hunt, Iowa this year. Corey hunted last year. He's not coming. Josh was talking about coming hunting in this year, but all of them are. They're all bailing. So now I'm the probably only one coming out, So my my plans are very much up in the air. But Um, it's all exciting. I'm already fully gung ho for shud hunting and it's before you know it, we'll be out there hold the bows again. So absolutely, And that's one thing, man, I'm so freaking busy right now that just with work and everything and family and and planning, and it's like I get to bed and my brain is not shut off because I know I need to be, you know, shooting my bow or doing something bow related, and I'm not and I need I need to be. So it's almost like I need to spend an hour at the end of the day, even if it's just drawing my bow back ten times. I need to be doing it. But I've been a I've been a bum when it comes to that. Yeah, I I admittedly have not been doing very well the last month either. But one thing I did do, which I need to do it again, but I set up a very short range archery range in my office. Literally it's just ten yards through a closet, but that's just enough where you can just practice like your release, you know, draw back and just focus on a perfect surprise release. And that was something that helped me all out last year. Um that you know, when you can't get outside. It's just a nice way you can get you know, a few shots and every night, just to keep that form. And I don't know, just work on some of your fundamentals. That probably helps better than nothing, right, Right, My luck is I'd probably blow through the target and put it ahole in my dry wall, or worse yet, like hit something electrical and it just like the worst case scenario happens and I burned my whole house down. Uh. I can't remember who this was. It might be our buddy, I don't want to a friend of ours. Um once was doing this inside of his house, shooting at a target inside the house, trying to practice during the offseason. And if I remember correctly, he missed the target, went through the drywall and burst a waterline. No ship, yeah, burst of waterline. So really be careful about how you set up your indoor range, right, absolutely, absolutely? Oh man, well, um we probably should. We probably should wrap this one up and get kiped on here. But um, let's chat more soon about shed hunting and uh impossible, Iowa double teams and and maybe Michigan. There you go. I like it all right, Let's take a quick break here, So we want to thank our friends at Morton Buildings for their support of this podcast. And Morton Buildings are the builders of wood frame, steel covered buildings that can be used for all sorts of different things related to what I think you and I probably want to do with a hunting property or a home or a storage facility. They can they can build pull barns, they can build garages, actually Paul Barn houses all sorts of different types of storage facilities, Lots of options out there, very customizable, and as I've mentioned over the past couple episodes, I've kind of been dreaming about having a Poul Barn house of my own someday. I imagine one where you've got maybe a quarter of it is a large open garage area, and then the other three cors of the building are this really open space. I imagine vault ceilings, very high ceilings, with a big open area that includes like your living room, your kitchen, your dining area. That's all kind of one big opening, and then there's gonna be aloft where a couple of bedrooms are gonna be. That's kind of like my dream little home that maybe if I someday can can afford to get a little hunting property or by a little spot maybe out in Montana. Someday I want to put that pol barn house on it. And Morton Buildings they seem to be the ones to do this kind of job. They have several things that make them particularly an interesting option. They've got some exclusive energy Performer installation which is gonna help make for more efficient heating and cooling. They have high ribs steel that requires almost no maintenance at all. And now through February two, nineteen, there are some special promotional prices for Morton Buildings, so you can learn more about that at Morton Buildings dot com. All right here with me on the line now is Kip Adams. Welcome back to the show. Kip, Hey, thanks for having me Mark always going to talk to you. Yeah, I agree. I feel like somehow I left the ball drop last year because every year since we've had the podcast, I believe we've had you on the show to do kind of a state of the white Tails address, as you kind of each year do your white Tail report and kind of share your fightings here with us, and somehow I forgot to get ahold of you do that last year. So I'm glad that we're back on it. Um, I know there's will be a lot of interesting stuff to dive into. But before we get to that, kid, I actually wanted to um to to to poke and pride you to tell a story, at least at least one story. Here, Kip, I saw you killed an awesome buck out in North Dakota, and I haven't got to hear what happened. Could you tell us that story? I sure can. And uh, and yes, that's correct, Mark. I was very fortunate and got to shoot a really nice dear on my friends land in North Dakota. And uh, there's actually a kind of two unique parts about that. Is one, Um, I met this guy through q d m A a number of years ago with a dear Stewart class and we we've remained very close friends since and hunting together numerous times. So it's it's always nice to get to go there. And uh, you know, the real value was just being with him and seeing him in the hunt. But Uh, I was very lucky this this past November, actually, my friend's young son was hunting and we were a few days into the hunt. My friend's young son had not shot a buck yet, and uh, and I was joking with my friend, said, hey, you got to take a selfie while you're in the stand. You know that'll bring your son good luck. Every time I take my daughter or my young son hunting, the first thing we do is again to stand, we take a selfie of ourselves, and you know that that's supposed to be good to the dear gods and bring us luck. Really, the the morning that I shot this deer, it was it was less than an hour after late, and I was in the stand, and uh, my buddy, I knew my buddy and his young son were in the stand several miles away, and uh and I had texted him. And I'm normally very vigial when I'm on stand. You know, I may check a text or whatever, but I'm I'm mostly impredator mode at that point, and you know, I'm w any. I text him and said, hey, you need to send me, you know, a selfie for good luck. And uh so I'm watching and I'm having I'm sitting above with this river, real thick right parient habitat kind of open around it, but clumps of trees. So the spot that I thought I would have the most like most likely to see deer was. It was a very narrow crossing, so I had to be on guard for sure, because when something came in it could get out of it very quickly, and then I likely would never see it again. And uh so, anyway, I just text my body, said, hey, you need to send me a picture, you know, to bring Hunter good luck today. That's his boy's name, and uh so I set my phone down and watching, and literally a minute later it buzzes and I look and I can see a picture, so I know it's my buddy sending and I literally picked my phone up smiled because a there's a dad, you know, proud bad and his young son. And I started to respond and thank Gosh Mark for whatever reason. I look back up and this deer that I shot had busted into this narrow opening and was quickly closing the I set the phone out quickly through my binoculars up and saw that he luckily had he had stopped momentarily, had this big heavy chest and he turned his head and I saw that one of his uh tailer has had a big heavy blade on it, and I knew this year is at least four years old, certainly well than what my buddy would want us to shoot on his land. You know, I grabbed my rifle and immediately safety off, and so actually seeing the deer to pulling the trigger happened very very quickly. Literally got at the deer, just ran a few steps and dropped, and then you know, and then the real nerves hit you. And I looked back down and my I had just started to compose the text back to my buddy, telling him this will bring luck today, and at the smile of myself and saying, oh my gosh, you know it did bring you luck for me, not necessarily for him. So I responded to his text and said, great, you know that's a great picture. You know today is going to be the day. I can feel it thinking you don't talk about him, but you know I would tell them later how the whole sequence of events worked out. So so I guess the self he was good luck, but I turned out to be good luck for me. That the second part of that that actually it was uniquely so anybody turned out to be what I thought initially was it was a four and a half year old deer. After I got the jaw out and got a good look at it, it actually was five and a half and the incisors to Matson's lab. So those will come back here in a couple of months and I'll know for sure, but at least by tooth were it was five and a half. But I posted that on my Instagram page later. And I'm not one to share oh look what I shot, like, I've never done that, but I will always share information, you know, to try to help others be more successful hunting. And uh that what I was stating with this was, you know, it was mid November. My friend and his father had thousands and thousands of trail camera pictures of deer in their farm. You know, they scoured all the time. They had never seen this, dear. So what I had said was, you know, boy, today, you know I was blessed to get this. Here's the point of this. You know they had all his intel never see us. So you know, even if you're not seeing what you want, it's made November. Just go hunting. You never know what could happen. So I post that literally, you know, an hour later, I get a message from somebody that I do not know through Instagram that they said, hey, you know, where are you hunting? Intrth Dakota and they sent me a picture. Uh. Anyway, it turns out there was a picture of the buck that I shot. They had trail camera pictures of it. They had actually watched it h during the summer, had seen it alive, had trail camera pictures. The rack was very unique, so there was no doubt it was the same deer. Long story short, Uh, these people are from North Dakota. UM. The wife's father is a friend of my friend's father who from out there, and they know each other. It turns out they had land pretty close together. So I mean, we're lucky. I shot an incredible deer. I made some new friends out of it. Um. It was just a really really special deer and special story all the way around. That's great. That is awesome to see. Um all that all that great camaraderie with your buddy there you're hunting, and then, like you said, having someone kind enough to reach out and share pictures of you. That's that's kind of the you sometimes hear about the the downside of people taking deer hunting so seriously, and people getting jealous and and letting deer get in the way of friendships and things like that, And this is the exact opposite of that, the very um, the very best of what we can be as deer hunters. And I think that's a a great example of that. Oh, I agree, I agree, that's terrific. Um. So it sounds like where you set up in that spot, it was. It kind of sounds like a great kind of pinch point type situation for cruising buxs during the rut. Was that the setup, and it really was. It was you know, rivers tend to, as you know, tend to be great movement corridors anyway, you know, and a lot of deer coming in into and out they'll use those to travel long distances. And just the way that the brush patches were arranged, you know, it was kind of going from cover piece of cover to cover and because you know, it's perfect place for those to be in there and lay in bed, and so I think he was taking advantage of the train to make it most likely to be able to get from one point to another, but then hitting those brush patches on the way just to see if any other deer were laying there or betted. So, um, they really worked that well for me that morning. I'm very lucky for sure. Yeah, that's a that's a great kind of spot to be in in mid November, no doubt about that. UM. We'll congrats, Kip. That's a beautiful, beautiful deer awesome story too. Thank you very much, Mark, I appreciate that. Yeah. So so let's let's get right into I guess the meat and potatoes here, though you and and I think Matt Ross still is involved with the white Tail Report to you guys put out a heck of a document every year. UM. For those who aren't familiar with this, can you give us a quick rundown of what the white Tail Report is, um, and why you guys do that every year? Sure? The white Tail Report is a really a state of the Union look at what's going on in the white tails world. And we started this just over a decade ago to provide today's information on deer harvest age structures, the biggest concerns impacting deer herds, big regular regulation changes of that kind of thing for for deer hunters and for natural resource professionals and deer managers and in the media all throughout the white tails range. You know, there was no one consolidated source for all of this information. So every fall we survey every state and provincial WALEFE agency and UH and get information from them on the prior years deer harvest age structure, that harvest, timing of the harvest, and then the biggest issues impact in deer management in their state or profits. And then we put all this data together, compile it, and then go through and analyze it and see what we think will be most important, are most meaningful and helpful for deer managers and hunters, and then we put it together in this document that includes three parts. Part one is a deer harvest information state by state and province by province information on a number of antlerd buck seter shot and then uh, you know how many bucks are killed per square a mile per one deer hunters, how this compares to prior years. So it's a nice way to be able to look at how your state compares to other states in your region or other states in the country, just to see what's going on within the deer hunting world. And we find it very helpful. I literally have every one of these on my desk and use them on a regular basis. It's a it's a great source of information and UH, I tell folkus you know, if you're a deer nut. You want to get your hands on one of these just to see this kind of information and kind of how your state pairs to to others. Yeah, it really is fascinating information, and it's it's available for free to download. Right, folks, just need to go to the cut May website and you can get the whole document this year, in all the previous years still too, right, that's scratch up all free downloads and they're all listed right at our website. Yeah, it's it's great. I'm kind of cure. As you mentioned, this is about ten years guys have been doing it. Have you seen any changes in the quality of reporting and tracking from the state agencies? Have Have they started to track more things and provide more data now that there's people like you asking for this stuff? Have you noticed anything on those lines? We have had noticed a big difference in the two thousand and nineteen report that we just published, as is the eleventh annual copy of it. So back in two thousand and nine when we first did it, UM state WALRT agencies get asked or get provided surveys from you know, outdoor writers and different folks. Throughout the course of the years, and I remember when I was in New Hampshires, dear by, I'll just not remember those. And at times it can be a little overwhelming, you know, asking for all this information. So the very first year we did this, um it was met with some resistance by some agencies that you know, I handle a lot of the stuff. I don't have time for this or um. But I kept egging them and pushing them and hey, you know, can we please get this you know, this is what we're doing. But you know, we certainly get information from all the agencies then and we still go now, but we get it from the vast majority now. So in the early years we had to pay teeth from some of them to try to get information. But then over the course of time we found out that, you know, they started using it as well, and it was useful for them and helpful for them. So as soon as they realize, well, yeah, this is good and helpful, then we can get the data a little easier, which is good. And and I tell every state's dear biologists each year when we send the survey, hey, you know, we want this to be helpful to you. If there's any questions that you would like to include on here that you think would be helpful or help you in your job, you know, let me know, and we're glad to include those. So over the other last eleven years we've we've had several questions that were um asked by State Wilife Agency biologists such as you know it it would be nice to know, you know whatever, you know this is around the country. So uh yeah, so it's nice to put those in. We try to make it helpful to them. Today, it's a lot easier to get it's a much better cooperation between us and the agencies, you know, with them submitting this information. So yeah, that's a good thing, a very good thing. Yeah, that's great. So that being the case, you're getting more data than ever, higher quality data than ever. And you've been doing this for eleven years now, you've seen kind of some ups and downs. I remember, gosh, I don't remember if it was two in fourteen or fifteen, or somewhere between thirteen and fifteen in that ballpark, I remember we kind of had a little bit of a rough patch as far as um harvest trends and disease, and there was there was some concern within the white tailed world are the good old days behind us. Maybe, Um, there's some sense of concern if you look at things at a very high level right now, Kip, how what's your sense of things? What what is the state of white tails today in two thousand nineteen. Well, there's a lot of really positive trends in the white tailed world. Um, I'm an optimist, so I tend to see things with a glass half fool anyway. But there are some some really positive trends such as things like, uh, what you we talked about, we had two thousand and fourteens kind of a year or wild things were just really not good from a harvest end from a disease end um, but certainly from the buck harvest side, we have really recovered from that. And uh, we're are buck harvest rates are getting up to some pretty historic numbers. Or we've returned to killing a lot of bucks, which hunters certainly like. And uh, the one thing about it that that's very different from the past is that the age structure of those bucks is considerably older today. So you know, we're we're killing some really high numbers, but rather than the majority of them being one and a half, you know, today we have a very balanced age structure in the harvest where only about a third of them are are yealing bucks about another third or two and a half years old, and full third today are at least three and a half. You know, so we're killing a pile of dear today bucks that are three and a half, four and a half, five and a half are older. And so that's pretty special. And man, that really gets to two hunters excited. Yeah. Absolutely, And kind of along those lines, I saw an interesting thing kind of speaking to the tracking, the new tracking, I saw that you're also now able to get some dough age structure data, which I thought was was something I hadn't remember seeing in past years. I thought that was interesting. I'm correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think I saw the the largest group of dough harvested across the nation war three and a half or older as well. Is that is that correct? That is correct? And yeah, the dough age structure is different in the box um in, but it was different in that by far the biggest segment of those are three and a half or older. And we started that a few years into this, probably just to see, hey, what what percentage of all the analysts you're taking our bonds. Um, that's always interesting for hunters. And then uh, we started looking at that data and realize, now this is really good. You know, we need to incorporate this annually. So we have included that the last few years, and it is good to watch, hey, percentage of all the ant lost harvests that are fonds, you know versus yearlings and then those hitting that older stage class. So if for nothing else, it's it's pretty apparent in some stage, you know, the difference between percentages of those that are three and a half and older versus percentages of bucks that make it to the overage class. It's pretty eye opening for for some hunters and and even some some wilife agencies. Yeah, I imagine. So going back to the buck side of things on the age structure, Um, when we chatted two years ago during our last podcast like this, I remember that we talked about how the the number or the percentage of bucks that are three and a half are older, that number had I think was the highest that had ever been and I think you had said something along the lines of we expect that it will probably just stay around here. We don't think it's gonna keep trending up. This is probably like the natural UM, the natural point that it's going to fluctuate around, give or take. It seems like that it's kind of been the case now. It's kind of been around that, give or take one third or so. UM. As you look at our our breakout of age structure harvest across the nation, do you feel like we're kind of reaching the equilibrium across the board or do you see any dramatic changes coming in the future. I think that we have probably hit a very good point from from a health standpoint, both from a herd health and UH and hunter opportunities point UM. What I do foreseeing the future is I am guessing you're gonna start seeing an increased number of yearling bucks again and in a decreased number of older bucks UM directly as a result of the increased bread of c w D. So I think that for a while we will see some change, not a huge change, but but some And I think there's really two parts of that mark. One is you have some states that once they find out the f c w D, they are encouraging hunters to reverting to shooting yearling bucks UM, which has met with some disapproval from from some hunters. Um, not all states are doing that, though my home state of Pennsylvania is Is is firmly supportive of maintaining the antler restrictions and UH and keeping those in place and making sure that they provide some additional harvest effort to the antalist side, you know. So, So I don't think Pennsylvania's age structure is going to change a lot anytime soon. But we have seen that in some states that the find c w D and start encouraging hunters to shoot yelling bucks again. So I think it will change a little because of that, and then long term, I think it will change. And we're starting to see this, uh in the endemic area of Wisconsin right now. Um, when c w D has been in an area for a long time and uh, you just start seeing that age structure there start to decline because you're just not ending up with a lot of bucks getting it into those real advanced age classes. So so I think that what we have right now from a national harvest a structure for bucks is probably as good as it's going to get. And we might start seeing a slip here in a little bit in the coming years. Yeah, I definitely want to dive into excuse me, I want to dive into the questions around managing in c w D areas and age structure and should you be just killing every buck or should we still be trying to manage for older age classes? Um. But I guess before I go down that wormhole, because imagine that will take us further and further down. UM, I want to stick just to the generic harvest questions. One one more thing here, and that is around doe harvest. Um. Because you mentioned that buck harvest is up, but I saw that doe harvest is down, and it's down quite significantly over the last ten years. What do you make of all that? How you're write it is down, it's down close during the last ten years. And I think there's a couple of things for that one. Um. As the cd M movement really has been going to pass two decades, you know, just like anything, a pendulum kind of swings both ways, and a while back we kind of had the pendulum swinging all the way over to really aggressive dough harvest, and right now I think it's just kind of swinging back the other way a little bit. Because there are a bunch of analyst harvest opportunities and numerous states the hunters just are not taking advantage of. Your home state of Michigan is a perfect example, you know, in parts of southern Michigan, where the hunters routinely take a lot more bucks than they do antlaist deer, even though the DNR is begging them to shoot more deer. So so I think there's a little bit of that mark where you have some folks just unwilling uh to to shoot enough ant li list deer um. And also there are places where we just simply can shoot doesn't many analysts dear anymore? Um. During the last decade, you know, we had some really aggressive antalyist harvest where states were trying to balance deer herbs with a habitat, you know, and and hunters responded to that challenge and did that. So there are some agencies and now just provide fewer antalysts others opportunities because they don't need to shoot as many analysts here. So that's playing into it a little bit as well as faon recruitment rates continue to decline and particularly throughout the Southeast, mostly from prenation concerns. So when you have you know, a much higher mortality rate on phones, and you're just not bringing as many phones into those populations just simply can't withstand the same analyst harvest as the past. So it's it's not a one size fits all answer everywhere, but that there are I think those are the three primary reasons that are causing this big reduction and antalysts harvest, and you just kind of have to look at whatever states specific situation they're in to figure out, you know, which of those main three are most applicable. Yes, it seems like this is kind of to your to your point about the pendulum, this is a little bit of us seeing the results of some of the changes coming from those years of two thousand thirteen fourteen fifteen, where there was concerned about you know, populations and issues with disease and issues with all these different worries we had at that point, and into what you alluded to, A bunch of states did change their regulations there that next year. I remember Ohio cut back on dough tags a lot, a whole bunch of states cut back a little bit. So we're probably we're still seeing some of that today. But you mentioned faun recruitment too, and I recall back in two thousand and seventeen, that was again one of the things we talked about how we're seeing a little bit of a negative trend with faun recruitment. Um, can you for those who aren't familiar with what faun recruitment is, can you just explain that once and then just elaborate a little bit more on what that trend is we're seeing, um, and and a little bit more about predation versus habitat and how those things might impact it. Sure. The fawn recruitment rate is the number of fons that survives their first about six months of life and uh and are alive day one of your hunting season. So, and it's expressed as the number of fawns per adult dough in the population. So the obviously a lot more fonds that hit the ground in the spring that die to predation, disease, cars, etcetera. So the fon recruitment rate is a measure of the number that are born but also then survive to be eligible for harvest on day one of a hunting season. So it's essentially a measure of those that lived to be about six months of age. And that is an important statistic because it's a it's a big measure of how productive that deer herd is. You know, how many phons are being recruited. Um, that's directly impacted by habitat quality and predation rate, etcetera. So that as much as anything, gives you a good feel for how many analysts deer can we take from a population to keep it healthy and sustainable? Uh, you know, and it also means about, you know, how many bucks are we going to be recruiting into these deer herds because about every other phon born as a butt fond so fon recruitment rate is a very important measure for deer managers to to monitor, and we do that in this report that just to keep track over time of how that changes on the state by state basis, because that gives you a lot of information on numbers of antilists deer that you should be harvested annually. So, so would that being the case you mentioned that fawn recruitment rate has been dropping, especially in the southeast. I think I remember you saying, Um, how dramatic has this been? And is it to a point of alarm? Is it something to be expected? Um? What do we make of that. Well, over the last few years, it does seem to have bottomed out, so we've kind of hit I think, as low as we're going to go, which which is a good sign. But to give you an idea, we've been monitoring this since two thousand. Uh and in two thousand, across the US, the average of fawn recruitment rate was point eight one falls per doe, so you know, for every adult go out there, they recruited point eight falls into the deer. Now, the first thing listeners who aren't familiars will say, it's wait a minute. You know those have twins, and that is true, but you know, less than half of those twins survived to be six months of age, so point eight one falls per dough back in two thousand. Today that has dropped to point six five fons per dough, so esventially what that means is, you know today it takes three dos to to recruit two fonds, so that is very different from the past. And uh. In fact, this past year there's only two states in the entire country that recruit at least one faon per bell. Uh that those being Illinois and Kentucky. To a very productive states obviously, so the farm recruipver rates are always lower than many people think, but they have they have changed dramatically since two thousand and but it does appear over the last few years they have kind of plateaued, which hopefully means they're not going to go any lower and we can start managing more effectively at those levels. So is there uh? I imagine it's probably a combination of all the above. But from your perspective, what would you would you point to any one thing that you already mentioned that being predation or would you say it's something like predation and habitat and any other factors that have led to this decline since two thousand and and then the fall up to that question would be, then what's our response moving forward? Is there? What would you recommend we as managers be thinking about to try to move that number back up in the right direction. Um. I think the biggest reasons for this are predation as one of them. Habitat is a big one. Um over throughout the Midwest, much of that particularly agricultural Midwest, you know, the most limiting habitat component already is covered for deer and with loss of CRP during the big corn years. You know, we lost a quarter of all of the land that was enrolled in CRP programs UM through you know, that's the most successful habitat program from through the federal gund we've ever had. And there was millions and millions of acres lost front of our great cover that we're put back into road crop productions. So that's a huge loss for you know, for those deer and uh that was kind of through the Midwest and much of the forested parts of the country. We have forces that are maturing, so a mature fourth don't provide anywhere near the fawning cover that young force do. So so that's the habitat component kind of outside the Midwest. So yeah, increased predation, UM, loss of habitat, and I think in some places um uh nutrition was playing a factor. You know, we have rising deer herbs again in many areas, and if as soon as you end up with the more deer than you really should have in a certain area, um, first thing that gets impacted as their health and then fawning. So UM, I think those are the big three measures with with predation and habitat lost by far being the biggest two. Yeah, you referenced the CRP issues over the past few years, how they've they've been reducing the maximum number of acres eligible to be part of the conservation reserve program and a new farm bill just got approved recently. Um, kid, are you familiar with the details of that new bill and and are you aware of how that looks as far as conservation measures for deer and deer hunters? Is it is? It looks like a good farm bill for for what we're up to. Um, what are your thoughts on that. I am not familiar mark with all of the ins and outs of that then Uh, Um, I need to become familiar with it. I just haven't since that thing finally got signed. Yeah, it was. It was a lengthy process from what I want I understand. I haven't got to dive into it too much myself, either, But I did see um that the max limit for CRP was raised a little bit over what it was a couple of years ago, UM, but not very significantly. So I have heard that some folks in the conservation in the wildlife space, we're a little disappointed with that. Um. But that's as That's as far as I went on that front. But I'll be interested to see. I definitely think to your point, it's been such a successful program, so helpful to wildlife out there. Um, we need that, we need that crap. Um. You mentioned maturing forests. Something in the White Tail Report, UM that I found interesting was what you guys are calling the Young Force initiative, which seems to be an effort to try to um address what you talked about with it, with the challenges of maturing force. Is that something you can speak to a little bit and and what's going on there and why that's a concern for for deer and dear owners. Absolutely, we are huge supporters of the jung Force initiative, and we're fortunate enough to have an employee based out of New York who works specifically with landowners to help encourage them and then help them get more young forest on their properties. And essentially, we know from from a deer habitat perspective that mature forest provide very little food and cover for deer. Somewhere between fifty and a hundred pounds of browse barakers, that's it. And uh, young forests can provide upwards of seven hundred and fifty two thousand pounds of food Baraker, and they provide tremendous cover, you know, the cover that farms need to survive, cover that adults need UH to feel secure on properties. So young forest and that's essentially you know, forested area that is anywhere from zero to about ten years of age. So think of you know, those thick areas that we're just you know, you can't see film, it's hard to walk film. You know, those places are perfect for deer from a food and cover perspective. But unfortunately, you know, many of the forests in the United States, as they mature, you know, they just have become far less valuable for deer. So this initiative helps provide information for landowners of the benefits of having young forests on their property for not just deer, but there's a whole suite of wall like species that really benefit from that component of the habitat component. So our guy works every day with folks, shows them what they can do to get that, how that will benefit them, how help them meet their personal goals on their property, and then UH helps walk them through the process to actually make that happen. And this is a really really good program for deer and a whole host of other wildlife species. Yeah, I thought that was really interesting and it's funny. I you know, came from a family who kind of was of the old guard when it came to trees. You know, I always thought you had a plant trees, you don't want to cut down trees. So my my grandpa was always planting trees and all of our old fields on our on our deer farm, our dear property of north And it was sacrilege to cut down a tree that was living, because that just seemed like not the right thing to do, right. You want to help grow things, um, not kill unnecessarily. And you know, he we had no idea back at the time that oftentimes setting things back is actually the very best thing you can do for wildlife. But I think there are a lot of well meaning people out there who care about conservation, care about wildlife and wild places, and they see a tim or harvest or something they think that's a bad thing. And there I think I think it's fair say in some cases maybe certain ways that can be done isn't as as good as possible, but there certainly are very uh, there are plenty of positive things that timber harvests done in a sustainable way can do. Um, just a lot of a lot of folks maybe don't realize that. So there's a little bit of a pr problem, I think, don't you think absolutely no, there definitely definitely is. And I grew up in very much the same way as you described, with you know, protecting trees and not cutting, and so we kind of loved our wild life to death, I guess from that perspective, and the mature trees are certainly needed and particularly feel like where you do, or even farther north where I do. You know, we need some of that cover for for winter, covering that. But you know there's a lot of tree, a lot of deer, you know, they live their entire life, you know, and never see a mature tree. You know, think of South Texas and you know Western Kansas, places that donors would love to go. You know, there's no huge trees there. So there don't need them nearly as much as as we think they do. Yeah, they certainly, they certainly appreciate diversity and habitat and edge and openings, um, all those things that are so crucial for We're not like you said, deer can survive in a whole lot of different situations, but they certainly do better with some things present. And um I was I was reading a recent issue of Quality White Tails, and there was an article talking about this on public lands and how many many of our national forests, especially in the southeast and northeast of the country, are reaching a high level maturity and and then just there's there's very little active management happening. You get out west, there's there's a little more management going on. There's certainly a lot of fire out there that is naturally setting things back and opening things up on the understory and revitalizing um kind of the the younger growth. But that's not happening on the eastern side of the country. So we're getting many of these same issues that you just talked about, not just on private lands, but also on public lands, these very large pieces of public land, and the whole pr issue. I just brought up the fact that a lot of people that are probably well meaning, they don't want timber harvest because they think that's going to be bad for wildlife, um or for you know, the natural landscape. But many cases right there actually loving it to death by not allowing active management. And in this article, um I thought the author did a nice job of talking about the fact that this is an opportunity where we can actually help as deer hunters and deer managers. We can actually help with a public resource by getting involved in meetings and making our voices heard and start spreading the good word about Hey, like, there are some positive things that can be achieved with some active management in these places that can help benefit all of us, whether you hunt or hike or whatever. Um are you familiar with with what Bruce was writing about in that National Forest article, Kip, Are you talking about Bruce Ingram? Yes? Yes, Yeah, I thought that he did a very good job of that, a very good job. Yeah. I think that just as a great reminder for any of us, even if you don't own land, UM, you certainly can find in a way to make a positive difference by just getting your voice out there locally. There's lots of different meetings going on around public management of some of these national forests and larger, larger public places, and that's a great chance to get involved and um share share this kind of information because a lot of people don't realize it. UM. So I thought that was that was worth noting. Yeah, I thought he did a good job in along those lines. That's why I'm so proud of one of our new five year goals at Q and May you knows to double the number of habitat projects that are volunteers do on public lands. And we have so many branches that like to do that. And you know, as an organization, we don't have the ability to purchase a bunch of lands to then open them up to hunting, but that doesn't mean we can't help public lands. And so that's the niche that we've taken. Hey, you know what, we may not be able to buy them, but we absolutely can help make what we have now better for folks, and uh so, particularly the North. More of our northern branches get involved with the habitat enhancement of public lands, and our southern branches to this point, but we look forward to having a lot more of our folks are doing that. And man, I think that is great for everybody all the way around. Agree. I think that's so great that I've been seeing some of that happened here in Michigan, and um, I'd like to personally get involved with some more of it because I think, you know, I know that you guys, a QT May, you're working hard to make sure that deer hunters out there know that you guys are representing not just people that manage deer on their own land, but but all deer hunters. And I think this is a really great way, um that you know, members of this organization are stepping up and doing that very thing, you know, helping improve the quality of hunting, whether you own land or not, and helping our entire herd, whether it's on private land or public land. Um. I think that's that's really walking the walk. And I was I was glad to see that happening. All right, let's take one last quick break to think our partners at Onyx. And Onyx is the producer of the Onyx Hunt app, which is just about the most handy and useful mobile application I know as a deer hunter, constantly using this thing that provides aerial view maps, topographic maps. It shows you property lines, public land borders, you can mark waypoints, you can share way points, you can see weather data. It's uh, it's it's kind of always in my rotation of tools. I'm using an actually an interesting use case of it that I just was working with yesterday I think it was driving down the road head to the grocery store and I see a field just full of deer, I mean thirty forty deer all feeding out there on some corn stubble, and I'm thinking to myself, man, I'd love to shed hunt that adjacent timberlot. What do I do in that case? I just pulled out my Onyx hunt app on my phone. I look to see who the landowners were, and I'm like, okay, I can go see where that person lives. Go walk up to the door, knock on it, try to get shed hunting permission. So I haven't done that yet, but I do know who I need to talk to, and that is one of my favorite things to do with Onyx. So if you would like to learn more about Onyx or try it out your own, you can go to your mobile app store of choice and download it, or head over to onyx maps dot com. I want to ask about something we brought up a little bit ago, though, Kip. I want to rewind the tape just a little bit and get back to c w D because I feel like if if I were taking the temperature of the white tail hunting community and asking them, you know, what do you think the state is of of white tail these days, whether it be the quality of hunting or or just what's kind of bubbling into the surface as far as tensions or questions or debates. And it's been around for quite a while now that the talk around c w D, but I do feel like more recently there's been there's been a little bit more of a vocal pushback on c w D management, on c w D as an issue at all, um some some kind of somewhat prominent voices dissenting on the public the most common opinions on it. So I guess that's a long winded way of me saying, Kip, where do you feel we stand right now with c w D as far as the threat it poses, as far as our reaction to it, And what are your thoughts on some of the I don't know if you want to call them deniers or the naysayers on how we're trying to manage c to B Where where are you at on all this and where do you feel like when we look at the state of things, which do we stand as a whole? H I've either been conducting research on deer or managing deer hunters for for over twenty five years now, and c w D is by far the single biggest issue that has arisen during my career and I'm guessing will be for for the remainder of my career. C w D is is very important. UM. I think that is a huge issue. But I also think that's one of the most complex and most misunderstood issues UM, partly because of the way that it attacks a deerheart. UM. If you take a look at the wildlife experts today, who are who are researching this and who are are studying this UM, there's a lot we don't know about the disease. UM. You know, when we've put millions of ours and then a lot of time into it. Uh, there is a lot we do know, but there's still a lot we don't know. And because of that, that creates room for a lot of people to argue or you know, dismiss a management technique strategy that somebody else has suggested. So there's there's no doubt that we have a lot yet to learn. However, if you take a look at the vast majority of the people who are really studying this UM, the by far most of them side on this side that hey, you know, this is a really big issue and something that has warmed and uh, the attention that it's getting. Um, there are certainly some who don't believe that, some wildlife experts that that are on the other side of the issue. Um. If you take a look though, that the number of folks on who don't think this is a big deal and that this is all blown smoke, the number is is very small and uh. And I think one big difference between the two sides is the side that tends to say that this is not a big deal and hunters don't need to be concerned. Um. Almost all the folks on that side worked primarily with captive deer hurts. Um, and this is nothing negative at all to captive deer or deer farmers. That's not what I mean. I share that to say, the vast majority of deer researchers and managers who work with wild deer with free range and deer think that this is a really big issue. And I think it's important for the hunter to understand that when when they hear, you know, all this is an issue or this is not, I think they really need to take a look at who's saying that you know, and what what side of the fence are they coming from? And uh, So I think there are certainly some things that we know with regard to c w D that can help. From the captive side. For instance, you know, there's the one genotype of deer that appears to be a little more resistant to the disease and uh and captive folks are you know, are breeding that to help them, And I think that's great, uh for us. On the free ranging side, that doesn't really help us though, because that genotype does exist in the wild, but it doesn't do very well with mother nature. She reads them out quickly, so you know, unless you can take care of that animal and then from an animal husbandry and like you can inside offense, it doesn't really help us. So I think it's very important for hunters to just realize, you know, who is given them information, you know, and what what animals are manage it. So we've fall on the side of we're taking care of free ranging deer and this is a really big issue for them, but by far the biggest issue of my time and then probably yours as well. So I think that states have tried a few different things. M I'm very encouraged to see states like Pennsylvania now actually trying something different, you know, an alternative management strategy, which I think is very good because we don't have a lot of success stories what we've done so far. However, what we do know is that if we don't uh find a success story or change what is going on, you know, the future of deer hunting is not good for any of us. And we have so many hunters that say, well, I'm not in all these dead deer. You know, it's just really a big deal. It really is, because even though we don't find a lot of dead deer from it, the research shows that do with c w D die at three times the rate that those that don't. They just end up dying to predators or guns or cars or something else first. So we don't see that oh yeah, this was impacted by c w D. So since hunters don't see it and they think it's not a big deal. But but that's not true, that's not true at all. So ut I think it's a huge deal. Um. I think that it warrants the attention that we give it. And man, I really wish that from the wildlife community side, you know, we could be a little more on the same page with what we are actually saying or what information we're sharing, because it doesn't do any of us any good to spread, you know, inaccuracies like we don't know if it's a disease or it's just a condition. That that's not true at all. We know absolutely it's a disease, but hunters are kind of scared of it. So if they hear somebody say what they want to hear, boy, they really gravitate to that and then hope the problem is going to go away. But that's not the case of this, and Mark, this is not going to go away with us without us alt. Are there any other common inaccuracies that you hear getting put out there today that every time you hear it makes you cringe? Like, are there any other like very popular inaccuracies that you want to correct? Your real quick the big ones you know, I often hear as well. We don't find dead deer all over the place. So these deer, even if they have c w D, you know, they're still reproducing. So we're okay, Um, that's that's not true because since they die at three times the rate of other deer, you know, at some point, when you get enough of that deerhood that is CWD positive, they are going to be dying, you know, quicker than they can reproduce themselves. So our deer herbs start dropping and dropping. And you take any deer head right now, all of a sudden, you add you know, a twenty or thirty percent mortality rate on top of that. That is very quickly you can realize, wow, I'm going to have a lot less deer to shoot in the future. I'm gonna see a lot fewer deer um. So that that is a big one part. Because a c w D insultrates a deer herd. You know, we don't really notice any difference until it gets to the point where it has affected a large portion of it, and then we are going to see dramatic population to clients. If the thing is though, once it gets to that point, you know, we have no way of stopping it. So we need to stop it right now, or at least slow the spread. While there's only you know, one or two or maybe even five percent of a deer herd is uh impacted. You know, once we get to what we're seeing in Wisconsin, now, you know we're or CWD positive. You know, we're gonna start seeing major changes in that Wisconsin deer heard in the near future, and unfortunately we can't stop it. So we need all these other states need to stop in their place before they get to what was consint is about to experience. Yeah. So so that brings us to the next big point of contention for a lot of people, which are the management strategies in places where they do find CWD. So a lot of people point to, you know, one of the commonly held grapes is that while we found out we had c w D, and then you know, then the agencies just kill all the deer or they come and they wipe out the deer herds. They kill way more deer than the disease does. Um, so there's a lot of concern around that. Um, where do you feel like things? I know you mentioned that we haven't really found a great successful example yet of the right management or reactive strategy is to c w D. But the Pennsylvania is trying something different. Um, can you speak to what Pennsylvania's trying and or where you and qtm A see the best opportunities lying as far as the next thing to try sure. I think that that there has never been an issue that's going to require more cooperation and partnership between the state wilife agencies and hunters than this. Never before we needed to work more closely together. So we encourage agencies to reach out and partner with hunters and unprecedented levels share information, um, you know, do everything possible to provide multiple, multiple opportunities for the information why this is important, how this can help? So I think that is what has to happen. And from the hunters, they need to engage the agency, you know, and ask questions, ask how they can help, you know, how they can be a part of the solution for this. So a good example about it right now, what's going on in Pennsylvania, And this certainly is not without convention. Here there's a lot of hunters very upset. But in one of our disease management areas of two counties of Bedford and Blair Counties, the Game Commission has been monitoring the prevalence rate to c w D since two thousand and twelve when I was first identified there. And essentially what's happened has that's gone from you know, less than one percent of the deer habit and it's climbed right up now to about five percent of the deer habit and if you take a look at that, it's following the same c w D prevalence rate trajectory that Wisconsin and West Virginia have. So if we continue what we're doing right now, which is, you know, trying to manage it and shoot some extra deer, it's very realistic market in the next decade that prevalence rate is going to go from five percent of the deer to the deer so not good. We know if what we're doing right now continues, the future is very bleak. That's not going to be good. So with the Game Commission said, hey, let's do this. We want to reduce the number of deer in that area to a certain level. And the good thing is they feel that looking at data from Colorado and Illinois, they both have some success stories of doing what are doing something very similar to what the Pennsylvania Game Commission is going to try. Now by reducing those numbers, they can maintain the prevalence rate where it is and not allowed me to climb. And that's really what we need to do is slow the spread of this disease until the science can catch up and you know, and help us solve this problem. So what the Game Commission said is, we know, if we continue what we're doing now, the future is not good. However, let's go in reduce the number of deer and try to hold this rate right at this five cent level. So to do that, they increase the antalyst tags for that area. They increased our d map coupons, which is Deer Management Assistance Program coupons, which allow landowners to harvest additional antalysts deer. You know, we want to take this deer level down to what they're saying, there's two thousand deer in this study area. So hunters got the first chance to do that, and they certainly took some. They didn't take as many as a game commission wanted. So here in the very near future, Wildlife Services is going through the U. S d A. It's going to go in and sharp shoot some additional deer to bring that deer herd down to about two thousand. They think that they can hold the level there. Well, what's going to happen is, you know, hunters here, Oh my gosh, they're killing all these deer. You know, and then you see the size. It's a deer slaughter, it's a dearer eradication, and those are the things that we really have to guard against because, yes, they are taking some there, they're probably going to shoot about two thousand deer in there. However, they're not eradicating the deer. There's still going to be a very honorable population left. And what the deer bods from the Game Commission estimate is once they reach that target goal, the deer density in that area is still going to be equivalent to the average deer density in every state that surrounds Pennsylvania. So there'll be fewer deer, yes, but still a very honorable population, you know, and in the name of protecting our future. So that is very good. So we support that. Now, what really needs to happen is better messaging from the Game Commission to just be out talking to hunters everywhere saying we're not eradicating deer. We're not, you know, eliminating your dear herd. You know, we are reducing it, but you're still gonna have a very honorable population, and kind of explain all that. You know. Messaging I think is key on this because you know, a lot of hunters don't hear from the game commissioner, hear what's happening, and as soon as their body tells them all they're gonna wipe all the deer out, Well, then they are just a bad trash and then that's not good for anybody. Yeah, it seems like so much of c w D management is hunter management, and that you have to find a way to address the disease concerns while also maintaining collaboration with the hunting public right and I feel like that's where we're losing in some areas in some states, there's a lot of nectivity around it. One, um, one aspect of this in which I know that I've read some stuff from you guys where you've specifically that it's really important to try to address c w D in a way that still maintains hunter engagement. And one of the things you talked about was maintaining the ability for hunters to still managed for older age class box and hunt older age class box if they if they choose to do so, because that's obviously been something that a lot of hunters are interested in doing these days. Um So this brings us to one of the management strategies c w D. You, here's some folks saying, well, Buck are if I if I get if you've got this ratio right, correct me if I'm wrong, But I believe that on average two out of three c w D positives are Bucks, So Bucks, for whatever reasons, seem to have it more often. And then also I think I remember reading that older age class Bucks tend to have it more often. Um, if I'm wrong there too, But all that's to say that I've heard some people say that some people that are very aggressive with managing c w D has said we gotta kill them all, like kill or sorry. They want to kill Bucks right away. So they're saying, no more managing for older age class Bucks. We're gonna kill them in a year and a half old. Um, while I've heard others say, well, does that mean you can't have any kind of quality deer management anymore? While also caring about c w D. What what is your take on that? Kip? And I know that QDA may has has kind of shared some thoughts on that as well. Can you elaborate? Sure? There's really two different main strategies of agencies have taken with regard to managing c w D, you know, focus on harvest effor really on the buck side to drive that age structure young. And many states have followed that. Those are the states that then remove the ant the restriction on yearling bucks and you try to kill those years before they can disperse, because you have bucks tend to have a higher prevalence rate than those and then as they get older, that prevalence rate increases. So on paper, it says, you know what the best way to fight this disease is to keep populations low and to keep age structures very young. And U That works great on paper, but that's not the real world. And you know, in the in the real world, you need hunters to execute your plan. So you can have the best CWD plan from your state Wilde agency, but if hunters don't support it, they're not going to execute it. And if they don't execute it, you know it's not gonna work. So what we have said is sure we understand that oldest bucks tend to have a higher prevalence rate to c w D. However, for hunters to want to stay engage and in you to be supportive of agency programs and harvest analyst, dear, you know, they need to be motivated, and in many cases that motivation comes from the opportunity to photograph and hunt older bucks. So we feel this far better to have some older bucks in the population if that keeps hunters engaged and then keeps them supporting the agency harvesting at Lewis deer and supporting overall wildlife programs. So that that is our take on it, and partly that comes from research out of Wisconsin that shows that, uh, from the dough side, if for an adult dough is CWD positive, uh, any of her relatives nearby are ten times more likely to be c w D positive than another dough in area that's not related to her. So essentially what happens is, you know these aunt Lewis dear they can become reservoirs of c w D. You know that we may never get rid of. So we don't think that you should allow all these bucks to become fully mature. That's not it at all, But we think it's far it are to allow some of them to do that, to keep those hunters hunting and keep those ant lists, deer herbs or anti aside, you know, trimmed down, so the deer herds don't grow, you know, to be far too high and then spread it from the antles side as well. And that's really the tax that Pennsylvania has taken. You know, they maintain their antly restrictions. They are really focused on effort, harvest effort on the antlest side and UH and Q and ay's opinion, and in my professional opinion, that is a better tax to take. And then partly because UM with regard to UH sex ratio differences in CWD prevalence, some states tend to be you know, a lot more positive in bucks. As you said, nationally, about two thirds of vologer that a CW deposit that we've identified our bucks. Some of that's a little bit of a sampling bias though, where we just sample a lot more bucks, because you have some states like Pennsylvania and Illinois and Texas that of all the deer they found it CBD positive, it's a lot closer to fifty bucks and does so so it's not always just the bus um. We have to really do a good job to manage both sides of the deer population to be effective at this. Yeah. So so everything you just said there I think supports what I'm next going to say, and you set it yourself a few minutes ago. That being that, a lot of what we're trying to do, it seems from a management side of things with c w D is simply stem the stem, that stem the tide a little bit, slow things down enough so that the research and science can catch up until we can find real concrete solutions. Um, is there anything on the research side over the last year or two and anything positive that's worth sharing? Have we learn anything new that's substantial? Have have there been any advances or anything encouraging that's that's worth the mentioning? Well, there there's always continue to try to develop a better live animal test, which is very good. Um, we don't have a great one yet, but just the fact that we continue to try to find one is very good. Uh. They're recognizing the need to have a quicker and more reliable field test for hunters as more hunters now have to hunt in these areas you know, as you know in Michigan where if you shoot a deer in the c deer you have it tested. Anyway, you will have it tested. And then Uh, Michigan last year said a goal of having the fastest turnaround time in the country hunter turns that test in, they get the results within two weeks. And for hunters who are not impacted by as I think two weeks, you have to wait two weeks to know. Um that is much clearer than others. So that's a long time to have to wake. So if we had a more quicker test, you know, the hunters could find out you know, within you know, a day or an hour or something. You know, we're not there yet, but that would be so helpful. And at least people are looking to try to do that. UM So no success story there yet, but the fact that we are looking and trying just lets us know that, you know, we are one step closer to the up and and that's very important. Yeah. I actually just saw an article yesterday, I think UM talking about a new test that they're working on over in Minnesota. I think the University of Minnesota is is seeking some funding for this. I think they just asked for a two million dollar grant from the state legislature to to look at something that it's I can't remember exactly how this works, but there's a way that they're able to take samples from even something like saliva or deer droppings and they can test it and instead of a two week turnaround period on getting that positive result back or whatever result back, they can now see a positive or negative result back and just hours with this new tool they have kind of it's more of a camera based tool. UM. So I don't I don't know if that's gonna end up being something that ends up being the solution, but it was interesting to see something new being tried there, and UM, like you said, we we certainly need some some wins on that front. I also saw um and wrote about this late last year. There's been a handful of different bills introduced nationally to try to increase funding for new research UM and an additional testing and science done around this. I think that's that's an easy thing that we as deer hunters can do is kind of get behind some of those things, right kick and encourage our lawmakers to to to appropriate some funding to that research, to to prioritize that kind of stuff. UM. Is there anything on that front that you think is worth us mentioning and touching on? Absolutely? And you are exactly right. You know. Back in another early two thousand's one CWD was first identified in Wisconsin and uh, there was a fair amount of federal funding funding I'm sorry, you know, close to twenty million dollars a year to provide help and information on that. And really once they decided that, you know what, this probably cannot impact humans, almost all of that federal funding dried up. So because of that, there's a real lack of funds for research today on this. So yeah, those bills that you mentioned, there's actually three main bills that would all help tremendously from from the government and with regard to funding for research and funding for state agencies to try alternative management strategies. Um, those are really big. So yeah, that's something every hunter can do is let their his or her legislator no, you know what, I support these, you know, please you support them as well, and they'll take a big sportsman's push to make that happen. But that would that would be a huge step forward in the battle against c w D. Yeah, I'll make sure to include in the links on this podcast post the names of those specific bills and and how you can take some action on that and let your lawmakers know, because I think that's that's a simple thing we can do that could really help whether you. You You know, and I mentioned this last December when I wrote about this, whether you believe everything we're talking about here that CWD really isn't a big issue, or even if you are on the other set of issue and you think it's all overblown. Either way, both all of us want answers, right, We want more research to clarify whatever position is, and so getting funding for that additional research UM is crucial. And we all want answers, whether that's going to agree without our preconceived notions or not. We need answers, and I think this is one way to do that. So highly recommend everyone, if you've got an extra five minutes to just send a quick email to your senators or your representatives and UM and ask them to focus on that kind of stuff and keep I know you're you're coming up on time here, So I guess I kind of just want to give you an opportunity to to a share if there's if there's anything else to top of your mind as far as what's encouraging or what's concerning moving forward. UM would love to hear any final other points you think are worth mentioning, and if not anything on that front, just what call to action you might have for all of us as far as UM what we use deer hunters can do moving forward to make sure the state of white tails is even more positive in two thousand twenty got you. Well, there's a tremendous amount of other information in the white Tail Report that the hunters would be interested in, such as where you can use tracking dogs to to locate multi big game, UM do processors, what states you what do wildlife surveys or habitat surveys, and a whole host of other things. But the one point that I will end with and in action market. This is the first time that I have shared this data because I just found this out and uh it actually every year in the report where I said we have the total number of antlid bucks harvest and anatalists deer harvested UM this year that that total list actually lacks one state, which is Alabama, because there was an issue with their deer harvest numbers that wasn't resolved by the time we published our report. So we published the data from everybody accept them. Well, now I have their data. So this literally is the first time that I have shared this information with anybody. So you you have to sell ss of this um last year to the two thousand seventeen hunting season, uh is the first time since, so it's been a long time. The season was the first season since the season that hunters in the US shot more antler bucks than antalyst deer. There's a big deal, you know, in the first time ever, we shot more analysts deer and then got on the road to really balance and deer hers of habitat and being good deer stewarts, and uh, following that, we had big gaps. You know, we shot way more analysts in the bucks. But the last few years that's been getting closer and closer and closer together for the reasons that we talked about early in this show, where we're just not shooting as many analysts deer as the past, and now that we have Alabama's data, and last year, for the first time since, we shot more antler bucks than analysts deer. So that's a milestone, you know, in waite tail deer management in the United States. So you're gonna hear a lot more about it, and you literally have the data first. So so what do you take from that, kid, when you say it's a milestone, do you view as a positive milestone as a negative milestone as Uh, I'm not sure. I mean, we talked a little bit about this earlier, like, what does it mean that dope antlers doe harvest has been going down? But when you see this kind of shifting of the equilibrium at a high level, what does that mean? I don't see it as a positive thing. Uh. And partly because in the vast majority of deer management programs, we need to harvest more ant lily list deer than antler bucks annually to have a healthy situation. Now, there are certainly some states that should shoot more bucks annually than than analysts here, places like northern New England. Um. And there are some states like even Nebraska, that aren't as productive as much of the country, so they just simply can't sustain h harvesting as many analysts here as bucks annually. However, for the vast majority of states, we absolutely should be shooting more does than bucks on it in any given year. Um So, the fact that last year we shot more antler bucks than does is not a positive sign for us. For a handful of state that's okay, but big scale across the US, that is not a good thing. And uh, even you know, we don't have to be shooting twice as many analyst deist bucks nationally, but the total at the end of the year. Uh, we're focused on too much effort on the buck side of up and not enough on the anialist side and too many states. Interesting. Well, UM, that is that is very interesting to hear, and to your point, it's probably something that we need to talk about more about why that's happening and what weice hunters need to be thinking about moving forward and making sure that we're not um getting too tied up in in targeting big mature bucks and big antlers and and forgetting about the management responsibilities really that we have to um. But that's probably a conversation for another day. So kip. For folks that want to find the White Tail Report who want to learn more about the Quality Deer Management Association and become members, um, where can they find that stuff? That's all our website market QDMA dot com And uh, and we'd love to say that that q d m A is where deer hunters belong. So anybody's deer hunter would love to have them be a member and help support the future of hunting excellent. Well, I can't, um, I can't recommend what you guys are doing enough to other folks out there if you're not a member of the q D may yet. It's really a terrific organization. As you can see from what Kip has shared, just the knowledge and resource of data they have out there for hunters is is is second to none, and they're doing a lot of great things for what we care about as well. Not to mention, they're keeping Further employed. And if Further is not employed, what's the wire tup podcast? So very good. So Kip, thank you so much for taking the time to be with your day. Absolutely, it's always good to talk to you my friends. You have a good day too, And there you have a guys another podcast in the books. I think the only thing worth mentioning right now is just I mean, you know, I say it all the time, but it's one of those things where I tell my wife you know, I love you. I tell her that all the time, but sometimes maybe I wonder that I tell her too many any times, and now she doesn't it doesn't mean anything. She just heard me say it so many times that now it's just kind of an assumed deal. Um. So maybe I'm making a mistake here by thanking you guys every week on the podcast, because maybe you just here and you don't even think twice about it. But I'm just gonna keep on doing it because it's not something I'm just thrown out there. It really is the truth. Every morning, I wake up and I go to my office and I start working on a podcast or an article or an Instagram story or whatever is I'm doing that day, and I have to pinch myself and I have to remind myself how nuts it is that I get to talk about deer hunting in the outdoors and and write about it and share my thoughts and experiences about it. I get to do that every day. It's such a blessing. It's something that I I do not take for granted, and I find it to be a responsibility that I take very seriously to us. Isn't just something I'm doing for myself. I'm trying to find a way to do something that that's helping and serving people too. And uh, and I thank you because you guys are the ones who make all that possible. So thank you for listening to this podcast. And I think I will just wrap it up by saying until then, until next time, stay wired to huh.