00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan in this episode number two hundred and fifty nine, and today in the show, we are breaking down the ridiculously successful two thousand eighteen hunting season had by my friend Andy May, with a goal of helping us all learn how to become more efficient bow hunters. Hey, guys, before we officially kick off the show, I wanted to just share a couple of quick thoughts. I guess as this is our last episode of two thousand eighteen, and this year has been It's been a big one. There. There's been so many changes and new projects and new partnerships, not to mention the changes in my regular life Allah having a baby and all that, and all along the way through all of that, you guys and girls the Wired hunt community have stuck along for the ride, and you followed along, and you've supported me and Wired to Hunt, and you've shared your stories and your feedback and your questions, and it's it's just something that I want you to know that I'm paying attention to and that I'm appreciating so so much. You know, I end each one of these episodes by saying thank you. Hopefully most of you guys are making it to the end and hearing that, but if not, if not, I wanted to make sure to bump this up to the very beginning because it's just that important. You need to hear this. You know, Wired Hunt is nothing without all of you, this community that you all have formed around this white tail hunting lifestyle, and then I've just been lucky enough to be able to serve through Wired Hunt. It is a badass thing. So I want to make sure you all knew that and moving on. As I mentioned, this is also the last episode of the year, so I want to wish you all a very merry Christmas and happy holidays. Hopefully you're gonna be able to get out there and still do some hunting here before the end of the year. Um hopefully have some snow, some cold weather, maybe get a delicious Christmas backstrap on the grill for the holidays, all those good things I hope earn your future. And one other Christmas related thing, little house cleaning item that I guess I should mention here is that we do still have promo on Wired Hunt hats, shirts and details. Just head it over to the meat eater dot com if you're interested. You'll see the store there. You can use the promo code wired at checkout and that's w I R E D. And that is it from me here on the front end. We've got a really interesting episode for you today. Were one of the very best deer hunters that I personally know, and every time that I get him on the podcast, I'm particularly excited because I know that he's gonna have some thoughts and some experiences that are gonna help me and all of you. So let's just get right to it, all right. Welcome to another episode of the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Onyx, and I'm here today with my good buddy Andy May and uh and Andy's kind of interesting. I was just sitting here thinking about this for like five don't even not five years, but for several years, probably two to three years, I was begging you to come onto the podcast, and you would never do it. And then finally, like we broke the seal last summer, and now all of a sudden, I feel like you're liking it because you keep on accepting my invitations to come back. So I'm glad that you opened up to it a little bit. Yeah, I was very reluctant at first. Um, I actually had, you know, hunting Beast asked me and a couple other people, and it just it was just a little out of my comfort zone. I guess, Um that was the only reason. I was just you know, nervous I'd sound like an idiot, and just I didn't feel like I'd be real interest thing to talk to. But you know, once we did it, it was fine, just like talking you know, with anybody about hunting. So it works. Yeah. Man, the key for me is that I just accepted that I sound like an idiot, and I just just embraced that and move forward. Yeah, that's been the key to my success. Um. So, so you know, we we've had a handful of podcast together now over the last year and a half or so. UM, We've dove into a couple different topics. You were on one of the Q and a podcast with me and Dan. You were on the show obviously where you only broke down on Nebraska hunt together. Um, but but you and we got to talk in the other day when we were covering Frank just about how you had, you know, and like you do every year. You had such an incredible season here in two thousand eighteen, and me and Corey and Further and Dustin we're all kind of standing around like, jeez ol Pete, like, how does he have so much success every single year without like almost no vacation time. Um, It's not like you've got some huge, fancy farm or anything. I mean, you're hunting public land or by permission stuff. You're doing it after work or a little weekends here and there. And somehow this year you killed a mule deer and antelope. Uh, two mature bucks in Michigan and amature buck in Ohio. Um, and that's just kind of the norm for you. You're we kind of on a group text message thread. Me and my buddies just refer to you as like the machine, and we say that very negatively and with a lot of bitterness. So, so, any what I'm what I'm wanting to do today, If you're up for it, um, and if you're not, feel we can just hang it up and we can guards. But if you're if you're down, I kind of wanted to just kind of walk through your season kind of here, kind of use the two thousand eighteen season, I guess as as like this example that maybe the rest of us can learn from and kind of try to break down how you are so damn efficient, how you do this stuff on a pretty short amount of time, well, you know, without a lot of the advantages that some other people might have. UM, so, so yeah, your name is that? Is that a game plan? Yup for? Yeah? Yeah, let's let's go for it, all right? Cool? Um, Before we do go any further, I just gotta say this was a particularly cool year. I feel like because you know, we've we've we've talked for quite a number of years now. You did a couple of podcasts with us in the past, but I feel like we started hanging out a little bit more this year. You've been helping me try to deal with some archery issues I've been having, and then we got to do that hunt together, um, and then I got to help you recover your big Michigan buck, and then you came and help me recover my buck here um in December. It's just been neat to be able to take you know, what was for a long time I felt like a mentorship from Afar. I felt I was trying to learn from you and kind of dig into what you're doing from from a distance, and this year to be able to do that kind of a little bit more um in person, uh, bouncing ideas back and forth your text a lot, I guess without getting too cheesy, I just want to, you know, thank you for that. It's been. It's been really helpful. So it's been cool, Yeah, no problem, it was. It was fun kind of following along um with you, you know, specifically on on the big one here in Michigan and strategizing together. And I really enjoyed that, not to mention, you know, our hunt in Nebraska. So it's been my pleasure. Yeah, it's been. It's been a good time. So so when I was out in Montana the first week in September, I think, I think this is right crib if I'm wrong from on my dates, but I'm pretty sure when I was out there in Montana chasing whitetails, you were out in Wyoming at the very same time, right, that was when they're going on yep, yep exactly. So you're out there on an antelope and mule deer hunt. You had two tags. Um, well, let's start there. I know we're mostly white tail focused, but I feel like, you know, you just started dabbling into western hunt in the last two years, and and really quickly you've kind of developed a knack for at least as far as antalope and Muley's. Um, can you can you give us the quick overview of of what that trip was like and and how you were able to pull it off on such a quick quick turn on Yeah, UM, well it kind of started, um last year in two thousand seventeen, I went out to that area just on an antelope hunt and was successful out there, went out there with a couple of buddies, and obviously, um, you know, there's an abundance of game out there, so while we were out there, UM, we for sure had our eyes on the white tails and the mule e's and and um, you know, it's considered like a general area or a general region in Wyoming. UM at the time, it didn't take any points to draw, so it's considered more of an opportunity area rather than like a limited entry UM. So you know, it's not an area you go expecting to kill, you know. Boone and Crockett caliber type critters. But everything we saw out there, uh, you know, we felt like we felt like it was definitely worth coming back. Um. We had a blast, and we you know, we saw plenty of animals that you know, we would have been happy with. We don't worry too much about size or score. So we UM, we made the plan. Um you know, applied for the antelope tag again and the mule deer tag. So we all went out there, except for one one body. He only did our deer. And we went out there and UM, so we already had a fairly three of us already had a fairly good idea of the lay of the land where the public boundaries were. UM, we were able to call a few landowners out there and UM, you know, pay a trespass fee to the access is UM you know, thousands and thousands of acres of public land because there's specifically in the area we were, and there was a giant, giant chunks of public that's landlocked, and UM, it's unfortunate, but you can't get to it without permission from one of the surrounding UM landowners, and a lot of them aren't real friendly about giving permission. And you know, I want to charge money for it, so we went that route. We found some good deals. Um. So you know, we literally had gosh, you know, more acreage than you could ever dream of hunting, pretty much all to ourselves. Of the pressure was very very low. Um. But um, we got out there a few days before the deer season opened, so antelope opens mid mid August. We got out there the last couple of days of August, and the plan was to antelope hunt for a few days and then you know, kind of switch our focus over to deer. So um, and if I'm right, this was this is a rare situation for you where you actually were able to take a pretty decent amount of time off of work. Because of your job, you don't get to do that too often. But didn't you have like five day days off so you would be able to have a full week and weekends if you need it? Is that right? Yeah? Yeah? Well, I uh, you know, I had some sick time saved up. And we're we do get um, we do get a couple of personal days a year. Um. That's that's considered our our time off. Because you know, I work in a school. Our vacations are you know, spring break, Christmas, break that sort of thing, so we don't get like weeks off, but you can use those personal days, you know, wherever you want. UM, and I just chose to kind of use them all for this trip because it was you know, for me, this is maybe not once in a lifetime, but this was the first time I had ever done anything like this. UM, you know, to this uh this length, I guess did you feel given given that? Um? And started to interrupt you. I mean, you are a very experienced hunter. You've done it a lot when it comes to white tails, but like you said, this is a pretty new thing. You did the antelope deal last year, but this is your first time chasing Muley's only your second time ever in this area at all. Um, coming into the hunt, what did you have a high confidence level? Were you just kind of winging it and hoping it was going to go well? I mean, where was your head at at the beginning of this thing? Yeah? Well, it's funny you say that because I was gonna kind of allude to this later um in the discussion, but I'll mention it now. UM. And I kind of saw it this year because I hunted with you know, I hunted with you. I hunted with three different buddies in Wyoming, and I really see, um, I guess a difference and and maybe the confidence you know, of different hunters. And it's it's not nothing negative. Um. You know, I'm not trying to say any one way is bad or anything, but um, when we were in Wyoming, um, I mean, we were all excited. But after the first few days of kind of driving around and scouting, we saw very few deer, like very few, and you know, guys started to get a little worried. Um, you know, rightly. So it's expensive, expensive, tag time away from the family, and you know, I could see some guys maybe getting a little maybe panicky. You know, I'd say that maybe a little panicky, maybe not enjoying the hunt as much as they could have. I mean they were. We still all had a blast, don't get me wrong, but I just could see that. But inside, I always felt like we would figure it out. We're all good hunters. We just we got the time. We're going to figure out the deer. We're gonna find them. And I mentioned that to a couple of friends. I was like, just don't worry about it. We're gonna We're gonna find them. You know, we're we're the type of guys that go out there and we're hunting, you know, dark to dark, and you know, we're not really stopping to take lunch or rest or naps. I mean, we're full bored the whole time. So I knew it would happen. Confidence, at least on my end of finding mule Deer was was high. I knew we would with time, the same same way in Nebraska. We were a little worried. We're a little like, oh, you know, yeah, low deer numbers, this isn't quite expected. But deep down I felt like we were going to find dear you know, I mean, we know how to do that, so um and then and I felt like we even though in the beginning we were kind of like joking, like kind of darkly joking like oh, this could get rough, you know, there was no negative attitude. That was something that you know, I thought was so important. We had to keep a positive attitude about it and stay stay, stay, keep that that sense of confidence. Otherwise it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy if you don't. Yeah, yeah, so I didn't to answer your question. I guess that was a long way of answering it. But I didn't go there thinking, you know, oh yeah, I'm gonna shoot a good mule deer. But I had full confidence that I was gonna find them, that all of us were going to find them and get into them and have some opportunities, gotcha. And that's the kind of what I figured. I feel like there's some people who I think, I think confidence and in a general hunting skills that can translate from species to species. If there's a certain level of stick tutiveness that I think you have, and that a lot of you know, a lot of other people I talked to have um that they're they're gonna make it happen. They'll figure it out, they're gonna observe, they're gonna try things, and they're gonna keep adjusting and learning um off of whatever mistakes they make. I think that's a real consistent thing I see across the best hunters I know. UM. So, so you head it in there with with a level of confidence that you guys will be able to figure it out. The first few days that was pretty slim pickings. You're not seeing the deer. Where do you go from there? Yeah, Well, the first few days we focused on the antelope. That was a you know that that's one man. I recommend that for everyone to go out and chase the antalope with a bow. UM. Very difficult. Um. You know, they live in an area that's uh, they like the planes. They like to be able to see you know, long distances. So spotting and stock real tricky. And I had my work cut out last year. I got one on my third stock ever. UM. So I was like, oh, hey, you know, I'm pretty good at this, but uh, you know this year, you know, I felt like I wasn't so good at I think I had I don't know, gosh ten or twelve you know failed stocks um. And it was just you know, it was just not working out where the antelope were. It wasn't real conducive to getting close and or you know, the real high winds, so the long range shots weren't really you know effective. But you know, I ended up focusing you know on some water. It seemed like it was real dry there, so there's big concentrations near water. Um. And you know, instead of like kind of driving around and looking for good ones, we just started kind of focusing more on those you know, those small areas that had water because there wasn't a lot of it around, and uh, you know, we ended up having some luck. Um. I ended up getting one and at actually two of my buddies um both missed, and then another guy came back during the rifle season ended up getting one. So we went one for one for three, I guess I should say on antelope. So they were tricky this year, they were, they were difficult, um. But then we then we you know, we've changed the focus to meal there and that's what everybody was I guess most excited about because it was our first time and uh, you know, like I said, very few deer um the first few days and I don't gosh, I don't even know if we saw any books, um, but we just started spreading our wings. You know, we're hunting in groups of two for the most part. You know, if two guys went this way on this piece, and two guys went this way and this piece, and opening day came and a buddy of mine, um, a buddy of mine justin Actually he ended up hunting this piece of public um all day long, all by himself. I don't know how many miles he put on, but it was it was some you know, real high tempts and a lot of like open like desert type canyon brutal, brutal conditions, and he ended up getting on right in the I don't know, the last twenty minutes of shooting light. He end up getting a nice two by two. And he even said because the lack of deer sightings, he shot a buck that you know, maybe he wished he would have passed on. He was super happy with it. But because the low deer numbers are you know, having trouble finding dear he you know, he took the shot and made a great shot and he didn't go far. So we started off on a good note. Um, but then we just started, uh you know, doing the glassing thing basically, you know, setting up on different vantage points and glassing just like you see on you know, the guys, the experts, the expert meal deer on YouTube and stuff. We took that approach. Um used glass and tried to find you know, a buck that it was worth going after. Um and me specifically. Um. I think it was second day of the season. Um glassed up a good one. Uh. He you know, I couldn't tell what he was I could just tell he was really wide, and you know, I was basically I was like, well, you know what, let's do it. This in the first stock, first stock of my Wyoming trip. And I was so pumped and I don't know, kind of a long story of getting but I crossed a lot of ground, gotten a ditch or river bottom ditch, and sneaked through a lot of belly crawling. Um the last fifty yards, took my boots off and got to within uh, twenty five yards of a group I think it was six bucks, and came to full draw, popped my head up over the hill and um, you know, there he was and I noticed he was a three by three probably twenty two inches wide. Was just a beautiful buck. But it was the second day of the season and I decided to pass. And uh had all that on video, which was which was pretty cool. Um yeah, so that that was neat and I was like, right then, I was just addicted to this type of honey. I'm like, this is this is the stuff right here, And you know, like I love sitting in a tree stand too, and I can you know, I love that style of ambush hunting, but this was this was different, and I was just I was in heaven and I really something I want to do, you know, many many more times in the future. For sure. I can attest to that, because in Nebraska, at least once every day you'd be like, man, I kind of really want to get out there and look for some mule there. Yeah, I've been bit by the bug. But so anyway, um, you know a lot of you know, cool hunts in between. Um, there's this, there's this public peace that. Um we noticed actually uh one of my buddies said he was driving down the road, you know, back to the cabin, and he said, man, there's a big beast group of mule deer in this field. So we got on the map and we looked and they were they had crossed what we figured out what they had come down out of the public and crossed and they were in this this rancher's field. So drove by the next day we kind of marked where we saw him. So we I just made an educated guests like imagine like these you know, fairly decent sized mountains, hills, canyons, and then a big flat of sage, um, you know for a good I don't know, a quarter mile. And I was like, okay, if they you know, they're bedded up there and they can't they kind of sneak through this this sage somehow. So I found like a little low spot, um where I assume, like if that, you know, if there was gonna be some some bucks coming out of those hills, they kind of want to stay hidden. So it was one of those scenarios where there's no cover. So my hunt was big clear on my stomach, like in in the sage bushes, and I completely just uh, you know, I went with my instinct of where I thought they would come through, and it ended up being one of the coolest hunts because a big parade of bucks came out of those hills and one just giant, and they came down and they were coming and I was I was about fifty yards out of range, and I tried kind of belly crawling commando crawling over there and and getting closer, but I just wasn't able to do it. So I ended up hunkering down, letting them pass right by me, and then UM just kind of watched where they entered the field. So now I knew where to set up how I knew like I saw him do it once. I was like Okay, now, now we can get them the next day. So the next day, UM, I had a buddy that he had shot and missed. The antil open was kind of down and um he set up on that spot. Actually I walked him. Um, it was weird. This public is the boundary is fifty yards off the road, but you can't you can't cross onto it there, So you have to you have to go down and perk or park at this access and to get where these mule there were coming out of this hill, it was it was about a I don't know, a mile and a quarter. So you gotta go down, park down here and then walk basically along the road because along the road was private. Um, it was kind of a weird setup. But I walked him to the spot where those deer had come out of the hills and walked right through and I said, you know, just lave lay right here and you know they're they're moving earlier, going to see you, and you'll be able to shift a little bit if you need to. And he hunkered down, was texting me back and forth, and they ended up coming down and they were they were just off a little bit of where they were the night before. But he ended up getting a shot at the big one he and he ended up missing. So it's, uh, it's kind of a heartbreaker. He had a couple tough two days, but really a cool, exciting hunt. UM. And then let's see, my buck was about twenty I don't know, maybe twenty minutes down the road on another piece, and same type of deal. I got up, you know, set up in the dark up on the hill, and UM was glassing down. I was in a spot where I could see three canyons, and it starts getting daylight and I look on the opposite side hill and I see two bucks feeding. And it was really interesting because this area of where we were at Wyoming, I would call it like desert ish. It's kind of like desert mule deer, really dry, prairie grass, um, you know, very very little green unless it's irrigated. And uh, on the side hill there was just a little bit of green just I mean just a little bit of green grass like new growth, just a few inches of it. And those deer were right on that spot similar to what we saw in Nebraska, you know. I mean it's just like that stuff was like a premium there. They were hitting it like a like a food plot almost and uh that day, the wind was whipping and I see him over there, and I'm like, you know, everyone says, okay, you know, glass him, you know, watch them bed, you know, and then you can sneak up to them. I'm in their bed. That's the best way to do it. And I was glass at him, and it was like it was real windy, and I was just like, man, I think I can I think I can get over there now. I mean it was it was two canyons over so it was a good way and I'm I'm in the wide open. So what I had to do. What I decided to do, I was going to go after him right now. I said, I think if I run, I can get over there and get shot. So I kind of belly crawled backwards, you know, keeping my eye on them, and snuck around this hill. And then right when I was out of you, I just started sprinting and I went around my hill and I went way up wind. That that was the only risky parties I had to go up wind of these deer. The reason I risked that is two reasons. One it was blowing thirty and two I thought if I can get enough up wind, I think I'll be safe. So I just sprinted straight away from him until I thought I was safe. Then I sprinted straight uh to the to the west, and then I circled back around and they were just on the side of this I call it a mountain. It wasn't really a mountain, but you know mountain us to us Michigan guys um a big hill. And as I was sprinting across, I looked and I knew there was three humps in this hill, and I knew they were feeding right under the third hump. So I got on the back side of the hill that they were on, and then I just started sidehilling it. And you know that by now I'm I'm kind of out of breast, so I'm slowing down. I'm trying to get my heart right down because i know there's gonna be a shot coming up. And I finally I get to the the kind of the base of the hill and I'm counting the hump. So I see the first hump, and I'm going the second hump, and now I'm at the base of the third hump, and I'm like, okay, he's right there, right over this edge. So I peek up kind of like crawl up to the top and I peeped my eyes over and they're both still right there. And uh, you know, I was thinking, like, you know how they say, like you don't have to be like, you know, super you know, in super great fitness to to do this hunting stuff, and you don't. You definitely don't. And I'm not saying I'm super fit, but I was thinking, like, there's probably a lot of guys that couldn't have done that. Um, you know, I when I did my track, it ended up being just under three quarters of a mile that I ran. And this was a flat train either, right, we're talking to some canyon stuff, right, yeah. Yeah, I was up and down, up and down, yep, yep. And it was just I don't know, the adrenaline was going and you know what I mean, it just I just went for it. But there might have been you know, I think I think out there, you know, if obviously, if you could be in some decent shape, it definitely helps. You know, a lot of walking, a lot of hiking. Um, you know, when some guys maybe get tired or sore, you know, make you want to quit, you know, but um, it. Uh. It ended up working out. And I got to that spot, peeked myles open over the edge and they were right there feeding. So I ranged him and there was two and both of them were pretty nice, but I obviously raised the bigger one, UM, and he was at sixty one yards and it was it was an interesting setup because, like I said, there was some really high winds, but where I was, I was just on the leeward side of the hill, so I wasn't feeling any wind, but they were in the wind, so I kind of forgot about the wind and what what it was gonna do to the arrow. UM. I drew back and I was, you know, pretty nervous, but I was, I was, you know, trying to settle the pin, get steady. Um excited, I guess, I should say. And I just let that pin float, put it right in the pocket there and pulled, you know, pulled with my back tension until the shot went off. Went off. Everything felt perfect, and I just saw that arrow start drifting and I ended up hitting him. I ended up hitting him about four inches back of where I was aiming, and it was all wind drift, I know, it was. I actually saw the arrow just kind of drift. So not a bad shot by any means, but not perfect. So I was a little, you know, a little rattled by that. UM. He took off, ran down the canyon, and you know, for the next the next three hours were like the most intense, um exhilarating, panicking um hunt, you know, that part of a hunt that I've ever experienced. UM. I was hoping that, you know, he was going to die in that canyon. And I got down on my knees and I just started glass in the bottom. And I don't know, about ten minutes after I shot, I see him walking out and I'm like, oh, no, you know. And then I can see the whole and I'm like, man, gosh, it doesn't look that bad, but you know, it's obviously not perfect. You know. Then I was thinking, liver looked like a liver, didn't look like guts. It looked like a liver. Shot And he comes out, he beds down, and I'm glassing him. Over the next couple hours, I'm just like, uh, you know, committed to knock taking my eyes off this this buck. And I'm just down glassing him intently, and he gets up four or five times, gets up beds gets up again, run, you know, walks thirty you know, thirty yards beds down and keeps doing that, and then all of a sudden, he gets up from like his fourth or fifth bed and he starts walking kind of away from me, and he's starting to circle around the mountain. And so he's now he's getting to a point where like he's going to get out of you. And I'm like, oh crap. You know, in between me and the edge of that that hill there's probably three canyons, and I'm like, oh boy, here we go. So as soon as he he goes around the corner where I can't see him, I just start huffing it. I grabbed my bow. I go down one canyon, up the next, down, up, down, up, just in time to peek over and see him go and bed down again. And it happened one more time. He ended up getting up one more time and going around the corner, and again I had to go back down to canyon, back up around. It was just there's just so much emotion, um, and I just it was excitement. It was I felt terrible that this deer was suffering. Um, I knew he was going to die. And now At this point, I'm thinking, I just want to get an arrow in him and and and finish this off, because at first I thought he was gonna he was gonna expire pretty quickly, and you know, he didn't um. So now I was fully attended on getting another arrow into him. And finally he he betted under this big tree, and where I was at, I ranged him and he was like a hundred and ten yards or something, and I was like, oh man. So then I ranged this hill. There was this peak between him and I and I ranged that and it said I think it was forty five from where I was at. And I was like, okay, if I can get to that peak, you know, and he's betted right there, I'm gonna have a shot. So I snucked down belly crawl or crawled on my hands and knees kind of up the side. He'll just trying to be real quiet, and I peeked my head over and he's still there, and uh, you know, it's one of those situations where I just like had to calm down and catch my breath. I see him right there, arranged him, drew back and put the finishing arrow into him, and he he was done. You know a few seconds after that, so it was yeah, it was I mean I felt like crying, I felt like cheering. It was just it was so many different emotions in uh, in a you know, a couple hours span. Like I was just toast. I was, um, so you know, not exactly um, you know how you wanted to go down, but it doesn't always go down the way you wanted to, you know. And I'm glad I was able to glad as I was able to finish him off. But yeah, that was pretty much pretty much the Wyoming hunt. Um intense, Yeah, intense and fun and uh, you know the guys I were with, that was something that stood out. Just just good guys and I really enjoy I really enjoy those types of hunts, you know, or maybe not hunting right with a guy, but you know, you gotta guys to come back to camp too, talk about things and strategize. Yeah, I wish I had a situation like that here in Michigan. I was just thinking about that today actually, Like I love hunting kind of close to home, but at the same time, I miss that camp camaraderie type element to it. I feel like we almost need like a local camp that during the hunting season, when you're hunting, you don't go home to your wife. You go to the camp, all your bodies to the camp for a while, at least at least a few nights a year or something like that. So you can still have that trip type of social aspect even when you're hunting the local spots. But that would be fun. But but looking looking back on that trip, if you could like pin it down again, you know, this is your first time ever hunting meal, do it and you're able to figure it out in a handful of days and get it done because you guys left. You guys left early, right, if I remember right, We ended up leaving a couple of days early because the guy I was with um that we drove down two vehicles we had both tagged out. So yeah, So so what do you think wasn't that, you know, other than being able to get a good shot, other than you'll make the stock and everything. Was there anything that you think helped you figure this out so quickly and on your first meal der hunt killed great buck. Was it your preparation beforehand or was it the fact that you well, well, I guess I shouldn't answer. I just let you answer. Well, UM, my preparation beforehand was a ton of map reading. Um. I had marked every water source within fifty miles over there. Um, So I had all that marked. I had probably thirty glassing points marked. So I didn't want to go there and be searching for this stuff. I wanted to have them marked on a map and just go and kind of pick off those spots one by one. Now, it didn't end up happen exactly like that. Um. What we found out was a lot of these big hills that you see in these big giant canyons. You know. I was I was thinking in my head, I'd get up on these the highest spots possible and glass into these giant canyons, and I'd see deer all over, and I picked when and go after. Well, what I found rather quickly was these these deer were hiding in actually really small pockets, small smaller canyons, canyons that you can't see from the the highest peak you have to. It's it's very chopped up land. And some of these Uh. In fact, that the little canyon or the cut that these two bucks were going to bed in, I mean, it was really small. All I mean, you wouldn't see them unless you were right on the hill I was at, you know what I mean. So they were still Um, you know, they were still hiding even though they were out in the open, if that makes sense. Um, you know they were clearly visible from where I was at, but from a road in no way. UM. So I don't know. I think I think we were just able to um find the pattern quick. UM. I definitely was prepared with the maps. UM. I knew the areas, I knew kind of where I wanted to start. Um, my shooting was prepared. Um. Would it be fair to say that you from from Afar? I feel like something that you did here and something the sense that you do in a lot of your white tones too, is that you're not afraid to seek them out, Like you don't get stuck. Just okay, this is the bottom to go, and I'm just stick it out and hunt there and hunt there and hunt there, and you keep doing the same thing. It doesn't work. I feel like I always hear about you having a plan to start, and then if that doesn't work, then you're checking out the next area. Then you're checking out the next area, then you're checking out the next area until you find them, and then you keep adjusting and adjusting. Um that kind of sounds like that's what you did in this case. Yeah, that's that's you described it perfectly. And I guess I was trying to find the words there. But yeah, it's more of like a systematic approach, um aggressive, but um, you know this time of year, I really just wanted to lay eyes on one and then um, you know, kind of work on you know, the stocking and get some practice in with that. And you know, I was able to make it happen on my first two stocks. I got within within bow range. But yeah, it's just it's just I guess, relentless, um looking, you know, like you said, going from one potential spot to the next, to the next to the next, and not wasting any time. Like we knew we were on a short hunt, so we really just kind of, you know, went all in on this hunt and um, you know their dear Um. You know, like I said before, I feel like with enough time we can narrow down, we can find them. And then it was just a matter of time of finding one that we were interested in going after. Yeah, and and like I said, then, I feel like you take a similar approach to hunting white tails too, especially in Michigan. It seems like because I feel like every year you've got a whole bunch of different places and then you are systematically working your way through those places until you find the deer you want to hunt. Ump Rip me if I'm wrong on that, but but I think that's true, And if so, can you can you tell me how you did that this year, because it certainly sounds like you did it pretty well. But before we get to that, I want take a quick second here to think our partners at White Tailed Properties and here from one of their land specialists about some scouting advice that, believe it or not, we're all gonna be able to start plying here pretty soon because the season is almost done. In postseason scouting is just ahead of us. This week with white Tail Properties, we are joined by Justin Mason, a land specialist out of Illinois, and Justin is going to be telling us about what are some of his favorite scouting strategies for this time of year, And am I go to spot at the end of winter has to be kind of those thick betting sanctuary areas, um you know, primarily I'm doing two things late winter, starting to look you know, for sheds, but then also trying to figure out, you know, if I can nail down specifically more of the deer pattern travel patterns. So I'll usually go into the kind of the south facing slopes up towards the top of the ridge, find some of that thicker habitat with maybe some locust trees, because oftentimes they'll go to those locust pods and feet on them, or honeysuckle, anything kind of the thicker the better, so that I can really dive into and see how how they're traveling through it, and uh, you know, hopefully I can score and pick up the shed. If you'd like to learn more and to see the properties that Justin currently has listed for sale, visit white tail properties dot com. Backslash Mason that's m A. S. O N. I also want to take a second here to thank our partners at Onyx. And I'm actually here sitting looking at my Onyx hunt app with my son who's eleven months old. He's currently on my lap and maybe you can hear him. He's touching the phone and touching the microphone. He's a big fan of the Onyx Hunt app and apparently at this very moment big fan of the mic stand. But what we both like about this app is that it helps me find quality places to hunt. I actually was able to shoot a buck this year for the first time while having a son got to share that moment with him. He got to touch that buck, look at the antlers. And I use the Onyx Hunt app quite often during hunt for that deer as I was constantly thinking about where to hunt, where the wind was going, where this deer might be, and always having the maps available on my phone were a huge benefit. So I would definitely recommend checking out on x. If you're interested in a mobile hunting map application, you can find it over on your mobile app store of choice or check out Onyx maps dot com. Yeah, um with Michigan, Um, I do use that approach. Um, you know, I know these I know, I know all the areas I hunt really really well, and just like you, um, you know the areas that you've hunted for years and years. You're a very uh you know, an astute hunter. You you look at the y on everything and you know, why is this happening? When is this happening? And you know, I start to see trends. I start to see trends in certain areas, I start to see trends in certain deer. So uh, basically what I do is is I kind of try to time my hunts um and and time my efforts to win those areas or those particular deer are most vulnerable. UM. So for instance, like, um, you know, there might be I got some spots that are that tend to be good early season, but during the rut there's like no deer there, so I focused my time there in the early season, and vice versa. I have some spots that are just tend to heat up during the rut or late October. Um, there's sometimes there's a certain buck that you know has shown vulnerability the last couple of years in late October or you know that first week in November, or sometimes it's early season, so I try to I start to develop a plan like that, you know, in all the areas I hunt, UM, and with that obviously trying to find, you know, a handful of deer that I'm interested in going after. UM. It doesn't always happen like that, but that's I think that's kind of why or how I'm able to have consistent success and and be efficient like as you say, Um, you know I have I know where I want to be late October, and it's not just one spot. There might be two or three spots. Um, how might be more than that? Yeah, I started interrupted. I was going to ask how many different quote unquote spots did you have like lined up that you could hunt this year? And let's just say in Michigan. Um, I'm trying to kind of wrap my head around how many different options you're kind of bouncing around with as possibilities. Yeah, Um, there's probably maybe a dozen between like you know, shared permission, private land, and some and some public pieces that I try to uh kind of keep tabs on. I like to know what's going on there that I scout regularly that I feel uh real confident in what the deer herd is like, if there's a good one in there, if there's potential for good ones in there. Um, So you know, I'm always losing ground. I'm always trying to scout new pieces. So it's it's a constant evolution. But um, you know I'll throw northern Ohio in there too, because I live right near the border. There's a couple areas that I hunt down there too, same type of thing. I'm really starting to learn patterns. So when a good one shows up, Um, you know, when a good one shows up on any of these pieces, I'm I'm usually I know the spots where I can kill them, and I know the time of year that they tend to be, when those spots tend to heat up. I guess, um like like like you said, I don't remember who said it, but like knowing your DNA of the farm, was that Drury? Yeah, Terry Drewy always talks about that, No knowing the DNA your farm, perfect example. Yeah, So it's just kind of knowing when that area of the area you're hunting has the highest potential, and you know, that's when I focus my efforts and I don't push it. Now. I might try to, you know, do a little scouting here, you know, on the outskirts and maybe checking some cameras and doing some glassing, and that's what kind of what led to my my November buck in Michigan this year. But um, I really try to just focus my time when it's most effective in those spots, in those areas, And I mean that's really what it comes down to. But then if there's an individual book that I'm after, there tends to be you know, there can be some trends there too. Um. You know, so it really depends on the situation. Um. But that's I think. Once I started really looking at that stuff and focusing on that stuff and trying to kind of I guess time my hunts when things were most productive, my success started going up more. Um And for anyone listening and started to jump in here. But anyone who's listening, if you didn't listen to the podcast that me and Andy did off of our Nebraska hunt about two months ago or whatever that was, you you really should go back and listen to that. I won't believe belabor you guys this again. But Andy walked through this whole process, the whole process that you use as far as journaling all of your hunts, documenting all this information. I gotta believe that that's a huge part of the reason why you're able to so effectively figure out the DNA of each of these different spots. It's because you were meticulous about taking note of everything, observing everything, and and documenting it so you can go back and look and say, oh, well, wow, over the last ten years, the last five years. This was a trend on this property, and this is a different trend on this other property. I mean, all that stuff over half a decade or decade can kind of disappear into the nethers of your brain if you're not finding a way to actually document it. Um, and you do a damn good job of doing it. Seems like, yeah, that that definitely helps. And I really like looking back at that. And I also have you know, I think I've told you before. I for whatever reason, I forget what my wife tells me, you know, an hour before. But I have really good recall with deer stuff. UM, So you know, I do have really good recall. I can remember, um. You know, I can remember what this book did last year, you know, during this time and without having to go back to my notes so much so, UM that helps, you know. UM. And another thing too, that kind of it was more at least with my November book this year and in the Ohio Buck for that matter. A lot of the a lot of my success happens with finding, um, acting on like recent information, like right now, like the current information that I can get, whether it's a track, whether it's a sighting. Um, whether it's a trail camp picture, uh, an observation, UM, but heaven, being able to capitalize on that and move in right then and there, similar to how you did with Frank, you know. I mean he he hung around a little bit, but you were able to move in quickly when he was there and when he was with that hot dough, And I mean you came really close several times to get them. UM. But being able to do that, UM, and being able to capitalize that by bye bye, being able to jump in there right when that sign tells you to UM is huge. And I I'm in a decent situation around home here because I'm able to scout a lot, even though I can't hunt all of time. UM. You know, I'll check cameras at lunch, or I'll go walk afield edge at lunch and look for tracks. Um. I'm scouting constantly. I like to know what the deer a doing. I like to know, um, you know, if a big buck has showed up. So I'm I'm trying as much as I can to to kind of figure that out as the season goes along, so I can capitalize on a moment's notice, you know, glassing before work. I'm almost never go to work. I'll get up early and I'll go glass um or the days I can't hunt, you know, if if nothing's going on, I'll I'll try to you know, try to do something that will help me be successful. But that has been also a big, huge help. And you know, just being able to to recognize when you need to get in there. And obviously you missed some things, but if you look hard enough, in your persistent and committed I think you one can you know, capitalize on a lot of those situations. Yeah. So something that when it comes to this whole, this is something I'm trying to get better at. And I think for example, this year it worked out for me with Frank, um is finding ways to learn about an area without impacting that area. So you know, with Frank, I just you know, I was fortunate that I could easily watch a large, a decent chunk of this property without needing to go in there and hunt it. So I kind of the long distance observation thing, um. But I'm always trying to figure out what different spots, you know, how can you watch it or learn it, or check cameras or do scouting without you know, pressuring those deer, and you were telling me, you were telling me. I don't think we talked about this on the last podcast, but you share with me an example of a of a late season buck that you had found last year and you almost got a shot at him, I think during rifle season or muzzle over season, I can't remember which, and then you're hoping he would come back this year and you do the same thing. But you were just gonna constantly monitor cameras in a in a in a spot where you can get to um without spoken though, how do you then? This is something I talked to a lot of people about. This is kind of one of those like seecret sauce things like it's it's the silver bullet. How do you keep tabs on recent intel without educating the deer? How how does that work? In your mind? Yeah, I think it depends on the area. You know, obviously, an area that's you know, more chopped up and open, Like maybe if there's there there's like there's one spot that's pretty close to my work and um, you know, I'm able to check cameras there pretty often, you know, as often as I like, really, so what what I do is I'll check cameras, or I'll go walk the perimeter of the crop field and I'll look for tracks. I'll check those cameras. But where I'm walking and where I'm scouting is not where I hunt. It's not where I set up to kill. But I do like to get that information. So you know, I might check and um, I might check the cameras and there's nothing, you know, and then a few days later nothing. But these are in areas. Keep in mind again where I don't care if I really bump a deer here because it's nowhere near where I'm hunting. Um, it's more or less I want to know if they're in the area because this is where they come. It's usually after dark. But if one shows up, then I feel like, you know, if one starts using the area, then I feel like I know where I can I can get them. So that's one example. Um. You know another example, you know, there's this other um area hunt that's you know, has a big swamp. He can't really you know, tracks, and that sort of thing is a little bit harder. So I might go in and check a camera, but I'm checking it, you know, I'm trying to do it on a real I try to check cameras on two situations, rain or really windy dry conditions, like so you know, if you get a week with no rain and then it's real windy, those are really tough conditions to a deer descentia on the ground. Um, and you know, just the cover, so I use any means necessary. UM, glassing too, you know, I use a lot of glassing. So it really depends on on that the situation you're in and the type of property you're hunting or the type of you know, what the covers like on that piece of public or whatever. So it really just depends. Um. You know, it's kind of a tough there's not not a one size fits all for that question. I guess, yeah, no, no, there's definitely not. Um. So so then I guess walk me through, because you you alluded to a couple of these upcoming hunts where you were doing some of these things. But let's start in mid October, we had this cold front hit. Um, I was all excited about the cold front hitting. It was like October twelfth or something or I don't know, somewhere in that ballpark and uh, one of these nights it was kind of rainy and cold, and I get the text message from you saying you shot a big one. How did that? I'll come to me. Yeah, that was an interesting one because this was a buck that you know, he had some history with. UM. In fact, uh, two years ago. What's really interesting about this book is two years ago. I've only seen him one time and that was two years ago and it was on November four. But where I saw him, he was standing in the exact same spot where I shot him this year. Yeah, which is really interesting and not not the same time of year. Um. You know, this was mid October when I got him, and I saw him during the rut two years ago. Um, but two years ago he also, that's not true. I did see him. I saw him late season also, so he showed up late season again and I had already UM shot a couple of bucks in Michigan and he was a good deer. Then he had you know, the mule deer split and UM, so I decided to let him go and just pray, you know that he wasn't gonna get shot. UM. This area does get quite a bit of pressure around, but I think I think as far as you know, your average Michigan property. There's more guys passing some deer, you know, in this general area. So there tends to be a few that slipped through the cracks and get to that you know, three, four, sometimes even five, you know, Um it's not many, but usually there's you know, maybe one like that. Um. So, anyway, we two years in a row or two years ago, and last year he showed up late season, and so we just kind of my buddy and I just figured that would be the chance, you know, that we we'd have at this book. And on October twelve, on the day you're you're talking about, there was a cold front and some like kind of light rain, real good conditions for deer movement. But you know, if I'm being completely honest, I was in there after a different deer um and was set up the way my my my partner, my buddy was set up in one spot and I was set up in another, and we can you know, when we do hunt together, we don't get out as much together as as we used to, but when we do hunt together, it's usually in a strategic way where you know, if the deer does show, there's a really good chance and one of us will get a crack at him. We kind of kind of hunt off each other and try to cover all the bases. So, um, we were actually after a different deer that was had been visible and showing some vulnerability. And you know, out of the blue, I look up, you know, in the rain, and this this buck is standing there, and I immediately know who he is? This spot? Why? Why, why you wanted to be there? Why he was there? Yeah. Um, it's a like a set aside field. Um, really tall we grasses. Um. So it's it's a field where it serves as betting. Um. You know that we routinely see you know, decent books bed in this stuff and in specific spots in that field. I might add, um, you're in and year out, and um, they just feel they feel really comfortable moving through that. If if I could hunt any type of habitat, it would be like set aside, like CRP, like the tall grass stuff. I just love that. And uh, the deers just really seemed to feel comfortable in there. Um. So you know, it's not uncommon for you know, especially in October, you know, mid October, late October to have a good good buck betting and one of the beds in this field. Um, I was not expecting that book. Um, but I was expecting this other book, which was a ten point um. And I can't say for sure that buck that I ended up killing came out of the bed um that I that I think he did. Um, but he certainly came from that direction. And and that's a spot where we've routinely seen um, you know, big bucks bed and my buddy Mike has killed one out of there, and I've passed a few out of there, and it's a to describe it. Maybe this will help some listeners. You know, if you got a field, a crp field, um, imagine it's kind of like rolling hills and it all tapers down into one really low spot, and you know, you normally hear about bucks wanting to bed high where they can see well year in and year out. That low spot specifically by there's like a bunch of young saplings in there, but it's the lowest spot in the field, and there's a buck betted there often, especially on a west wind, which it was that day. So it's what what I think they do and what I've seen him do. You know, as you know, darkness approaches, you know, half an hour before light. They they rise out of this bed and they just kind of stand there and they just drinking all those thermals coming down to them, and literally for nearly you know, degrees on a west wind, like, everything's just kind of coming right down to that spot. It's one of those thermal sinks right exactly exactly that comes right down to there. So we we it's not a spot I anticipated, but um, I don't know. It's four or five, maybe six years ago now we uh have videoed a real big buck in there and um my buddy Mike ended up shooting that deer a day or two later. Um. But yeah, it's just a spot that they routinely use and and I think that's why. It just gives them all the advantage of being able to smell the surrounding area everything in that field. And this is a pretty decently high deer density area. So when doles come into that CRP and and move towards the food sources and stuff like, they can smell all that. They can just sit right in that low spot and get all those thermals. So then how do you get away with hunting where you did? So the trick is you need a west wind. Okay, So where I'm at in relation to the where the bed is, I'm almost h perfectly south. Okay. So if there's a west wind, it's blowing me right right, Uh, not even past the bed, It's blowing me behind the bed. Does that make sense? Yeah, So like on a you know, if you were if it was a dead, calm night, that would be more of a risky situation. But anytime there's a west west, northwest, even a northwest, that stands money and just because it's in line, it's almost in line with that bed, it just it blows right behind them, If that makes sense. So you get set up in that, I imagine, tell me if I'm wrong. But did you choose to hunt this property that night because the front came through and you're thinking, man, these are great conditions. I know this is a spot where there's this good buck Tonight's to night to be in there? Or what was the rationale behind making that strike on that day? Yeah? Well that's interesting because this this piece, Um, you know, I hunt it with a friend, um, one of my best buddies. And I don't hunt that place like I normally hunt. Um. I hunt that place very conservatively as does he because we're trying to I guess, uh, you know, I'm not trying to ruin his season by being overly aggressive, and he's trying. That's that's pretty much where he hunts all the time. Um, So we hunt a little more passively, to be honest. We hunt in spots where if the deer are moving well, you know, you can have some success. If they're not moving well, then you know you're you're probably out of the game, if that makes sense. So, um, you know we we we hunted for. We set up spots for longevity. Even though I only hunted, you know, a couple of times a year, it's set up to hunt for to kind of promote longevity of the season. I guess you should say, I guess you could say, but there are certain time frames that we know, you know, these certain spots on this property can heat up, and um, mid October. We've routinely have had good hunts in mid October during cold front. So, yeah, you're exactly right. That's why we were out there that day. There was a you know, a good drop in temperature and you a light light rain and uh, you know, just everything kind of set up for good deer movement. So you're there. He shows up exact same place you saw him two years earlier, Yeah, which was kind of strange. Um literally standing in the same spot. Go in a different direction, but standing in the same spot. Um yep. And he kind of comes in and I think he I almost say, he kind of crusted that hill and he locked onto me, and I was like, oh my god, like how how did he even know? Like how does he know? Like I'm blended in so perfectly, and he just like stared a hole into me, and I was just like, this is I was in such ah because I thought he had busted me and I wasn't moving or doing anything, but he did catch me off guard. I just wasn't expecting, you know, a buck like that to just appear out of nowhere. You weren't like hung out in a tiny tree either, right, This is like a big oak or something like that. Yeah, I'm not sure what kind of tree it is, but it's a big bushy tree, some tons of limbs and branches and stuff. I mean, you're you're tucked in there, tucked in their good And I don't know if he was staring at that because he maybe he had winded a hunter and there before I don't know, but he definitely locked on and I just held still, and I don't know, maybe twenty seconds went by. We were just kind of both stating there, motionless, and then I saw him flickers tail and then I knew. I knew it was I was going to get a shot. So he started walking. That the best feeling too, you know, when when you're when they're locked on, you think you're busted, and then they do that tail flick that just says that just says okay, yeah, I'm all right. Yeah yeah, And if you can just you know, I've been in that situation so many times, you can just hold still and be patient and wait them out. Sometimes it's it's minutes, you know. Sometimes it's ten minutes. Yeah, sometimes it's ten fifteen minutes, that's right. But yeah, it was a relief, to say the least. But then he started walking and I was like, okay, you know, he's in range. Whenever he stops, we're good to go. So he ended up stopping naturally, which is, you know, what I always want, and I drew back and shot and hit him, and he took off, and it was kind of one of those weird deals where you know, I didn't wasn't sure where I hit him, and you know, I was. That's kind of why I called you initially, because I was like, you know, a deer, you know, I was. I was kind of freaked out. It was the deer, the size of the deer, have a little bit of history with and I wasn't sure on the hit, and I was like, I just felt better maybe getting a dog out there. You know, I'm not super confident, to be honest with you, in my tracking skills. I'm I'm red, green, color blind. I don't know if you know that, buddy. So I have a really hard time. I'm getting better at it because I'm I'm starting to get better at other things, seeing other things. Um, but yeah, I usually like to have some couple of friends come out just as back up, and you know, and then and then we have a mutual friend that has a an awesome tracking dog. So I felt it felt more comfortable given the situation, and because it was about to rain, just started raining right after the shot, right, yeah, immediately after the shot, it started coming down and started coming down pretty good too. So yeah, so then we uh, you know, we had her buddy Andy come out with the dog and uh, she's a rock star, she is. Yeah, we had we had definitely had trouble um you know, finding first blood. Um, I don't know that I would have found it. I feel, I feel I for sure would have found the deer eventually. But the way the dog picked it up instantly, it was it was it just felt so good. Yeah, she was. She was on it like in just a matter of minutes. And then she was kind of heading down the hill and we're heading in the direction where of the deer. I was gone. We started down this crest and we look up and we can see my uh nocturnal, my lighted knock glowing in the darkness. And I was like, oh, Like I felt a sense of relief because I knew, I knew I didn't get a pass through. I saw that the arrow actually stay in the deer. But then I thought, well what if you you know, what if you wiggled it out and it's just my arrow? You know. So there was like relief and then panic, and we ended up going up there and in their lay. So it was a really cool moment with U. You know, again, what I lived for just being around friends Um, I just love that, not not just for my recoveries, but for their recoveries to I just I really enjoyed that part of the hunt. Yeah, that is that's a special thing to be a part of. I was. I was really glad to be there, and that was is a really really awesome buck. I don't I don't think you did you've you've done it justice in describing him. Yet. He's a super huge body, big necked. I mean this is October twelve or whatever. He had full blown like rutt neck going on, and a typical eight pointer, right, but just the most mass you could ever ask for on an eight point. He's tight and tall, just tons of mass and then these deep splits on both G twos, right yeah, Yeah, he's got the deep mule deer splits on both G twos, and I mean it's I know there's heavier deer out there, but uh, you know around the bases and that first part of the main being that's the that's the one of the heaviest deer I've ever seen. The masses just insane. But yeah, he's a really cool, like one of a kind deer for sure. He's like one of those ones that you just you know, you'll never shoot one like it. Yeah. Yeah, that's I was blown away by that deer. Its just an awesome buck. Yeah. Um, So you kicked off your Michigan season while there. Now from that point on, we can skip Nebraska. We covered Nebraska already pretty good. Yeah, but walk me through the rest of your Michigan season because you had two more, two more good opportunities, right yeah. Um gosh, it was you know, late October November. I just had some phenomenal hunts. I don't know if you remember, but I was texting a multiple times where you know, I was like, every time you hunted, you haven't been awesome. And it was one of those years where what, for whatever reason, call it lock, call it you know, just being dialed in. I don't know, but I was routinely getting on good bucks. It wasn't every hunt, but um, I was routinely having encounters and having close calls, and you know, and they weren't. It's not like these are all in one spot. These were all in different areas. But I was, and what I apologize, were always jumping in on you. But can you tell me, I mean right, you were there was no rut there's no rut vacation. There was no big trip, right. This is you were hunting weekends and then some evenings after work, Is that right? Or what what else were you doing? If that's not the case. Yeah, that's the case. And it's funny because I really haven't hunted much during the rut in Michigan the last few years. I usually that's usually when I try to hunt out of state more um. But this year, because of Wyoming, UM, I was really limited on what I could you know, make work um, you know during the rest of the season. So I was actually kind of excited too to hunt the Rutton Michigan because I knew there were some good ones around and um, you know, I know, I know these areas and uh, I just never give them the time they deserved during November just because I'm I've asked for reasons of hunting new lands and seeing new places and all that kind of stuff. But it was kind of cool to hang around home. And yeah, I was really aggressive with my inseason scouting, and that goes back to, you know, to kind of really being tuned into what's going on, um in each area. You know when things are hot and you know, I was Can you describe a couple of specific examples of what you're doing at that time of year that was aggressive in that way? Yeah, just um, I guess, uh, you know, I was really trying to focus in on certain areas when you know where in the past they've been good during that time frame, and it just seemed like I was always on the mark with it this year, or doing a lot of in season scouting. There's a lot of times I had that that mantis saddle and predator platform. I used that this year, and I was just kind of gung hole about, you know, hanging and hunting and being mobile, and so I did. I used that a lot, and it was just really kind of a few a few hunts, just kind of going in and hunting and setting up on hot sign or setting up on the ground still hunting. I mean, I was trying it all. I tried the I had a hunt with a bow mounted decoy UM and had an awesome encounter with that. UM. I was really just being real aggressive because I I already had a buck down and I was like kind of, I guess, shooting for the stars and and just trying to make every hunt, trying to make every hunt count I wanted. I wanted it to be a real UM. I guess dialed in kill set that I felt really confident going in UM that I would have success or I was going to try to make it happen. So that was kind of my strategy. So it's kind of like, would you would it be fair to say than a lot of those cases you were kind of swinging for the fences with each hunt and it was either gonna be a home run or a complete strikeout probably, And would I be right in saying that The reason you can do that was because you had so many other options lined up. So if you swung for the home run on this spot and it didn't work out, it's okay that you blew out this little thicket or whatever because you knew you've got seven other spots you can go and try it to, right. Yeah, yeah, totally. Well you gotta remember too, I you know, I I set up my season ahead of time too. I guess I would never go into a season with having scouted two areas. You know, I would never go into a season of scouted five areas. You know, I'm going to go into each and every season having plan A and A backup, and a backup for that, and a backup for that, a backup for that. And you know, I I enjoy scouting as much as hunting, So I feel like I'm more than prepared. I'm overprepared, if that makes sense, And I would it would, I've said this before. I would have to be extremely unlucky to not at least have some success, because I mean, I I do scout. I scout year round whenever I have free time. That's what I'm doing. I don't do much else. Um, so that that helps a lot. I mean that's huge for me. And I'm not saying that's what everybody needs to do or should do. It's just what I do. So so what walk us through? Then? In Michigan, you're you're getting aggressive, you're shooting for the stars on each hunt. Every um, maybe describe the shot you did get or or if you encounters or whatever you want to share on that front. Yeah, well, um, yeah, I'll talk about the November twelve buck. And then I did have a uh two good hunts in northern Ohio during that time frame, two which actually led to my kill in Ohio in late November. But so this the buck I got on November twelve. Again. This this was a buck I knew about as a buck that I had seen in the summer and had had observed. Um, I was able to actually visually find this dear's track after I observed him. I was able to walk the field edge, right, you know, and I like to do that, yeah, this summer. So you saw him in the summer, and then you actually said, Okay, I saw that buck. I want to hunt that buck, so I want to go find this track. You actually did that, ye, I did that. Yeah, any anytime there's a chance to I mean, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna risk at all to go to go look at a track, but if I can, uh, if I can get that piece, that can help me a lot um And I haven't always been able to do that on all my books, but this one in particular, I was able to. Um So, anyway, he had a fairly unique track. I think I posted a picture of this online. But he had one toe that kind of curled over and was a little bit longer than the other one. So just you know, I didn't know at the time that this that would help me um in killing this buck, but it ends up helping me. Um just one of those things. He was not. I knew if I had an opportunity at this year, I would shoot him because he's incredibly unique also, but he was not the book I was, you know, the buck I really wanted. The book I really wanted was a different nine pointer that I told you about on the way to Nebraska. That was. That was the one. But um, I kind of knew, you know, if I if I saw this buck, I wouldn't be able to h you know, I wouldn't be able to hold off because he has a really kind of freakish, you know, goofball um. But anyway, you get you got you gotta describe what the heck that means. Yeah, yeah, okay, So he's got this perfect side, right, he's got this perfect side of five, like a beautiful half of a ten point, and then his his other side of the antler it it has a brow time, and then the main beam starts squiggling up and down, up and down, up and down, almost like a I don't even know how you'd explain it, like a worm, like you know, like a worm all curved up up and down, up and down like a wave almost. But they're all points. So he's got he's got eight on that side, and then he's got at the end of all those little waves he's got he had two big giant hooks. One was like seven inches and then then the one that was still on there he had up breaking one off, but the other one's like nine. So just like I mean, just a freak, you know, just a really strange odd rack. Um. But anyway, I had seen him a couple of times from like observation stands in October, way off, way off where I couldn't He's on peace of private that I can't access, and I was like, man, he is really cool, Like you see him and you just know it's him. And um, So anyway, this is at a spot near my work where I routinely and I don't do this everywhere, so I don't want, you know, the listeners to think this is the way I do things. But this is a spot where I check a camera often every two days, every three days. Um, because it's in a spot where I don't hunt. It's it's in a it's in a an egg on the you know, near an egg field. Um. I'll walk the edge of the egg field and I'll check the camera. I go the same way in the same way out every time, and I just check it often. And all I want to know is when a deer is coming through. Uh. If a deer is going to come through, it's kind of hard to explain come through the cover where I do hunt. This is where they end up. And you're getting these pictures there probably at nighttime, right and you're there. Yeah, Well, I'm mainly looking for the Big Nine, and there's nothing. There's no pictures, there's no tracks. I mean, this is a spot where if there's a big track, it's it's going to be the Big Nine or the only other deer that this head any size was this one. So I was only I was focused on the Big Nine with the back of my mind knowing that this freak is out there somewhere. But between mid October and you know, early November, mid November, I I didn't see that goofball one. Um, I had no pictures, no tracks, nothing. I assumed he got shot because most dear in the series just get shot. Um. But it's still one of those spots where I haven't set up where I checked the camera often. I don't care if I they smell me here because I'm hunting them two yards away. In fact, it doesn't bother me at all. They come at night. This is a spot where they end up at night. So it's November. What day did I go out there? I shot him on the twelve, so it must have been the tenth. I can't remember it was the tenth or the eleventh. But I go out there, check the camera. Yep, midday. I usually do it right at my lunch. Um. There's a couple of spots where I you know, a couple of spots where I'm kind of I'll do some scouting, you know, maybe check a camera, maybe kind of go uh, you know, just I get an hour for lunch. So that there's I'm lucky in the fact that I've got some spots near my work where I can get out and just check some low impact spots like this. And I checked the camera and I didn't have anything on the camera. But on my way back out, like I said, I walked the perimeter of this field, I see a track and it's a big one and I'm like, oh, I hadn't seen one there all year. And I look and it's that track, the one with the curve foot the longer toe than the other, and I was like, man, that's it, that's that freake deer. So I had no idea if it was, you know, I didn't know what time, you know, the day that happened. I assumed at night. This is a spot where, you know, where are these dear bed I can't get close to Okay, I can't hunt it, um, So I'm hunting off of that in some thick cover. But they do come over into this field, but it's usually at night. But the reason I decided to sit, even though I don't I knew he was coming into this area, even though I didn't know when exactly, you know, everything about this told me, you know, if I'm gonna have a chance at him, I'm gonna sit back here at this spot. And I have this spot picked out because it's it funnels down between some train features and some water. So when deer kind of work off this big piece of private and they come through this area and then over to this field, and there's a there's a small doverd over there too. So every year around this time it starts to attract bucks. And this is not an area that usually gets a lot of buck activity, but I've killed one there November four twelve and the fourteen. Um so that that that funnel that I'm talking about is way off this field. It's way back in some really thick security cover. And I come in a completely different way that to hip waiters. So as soon as I saw that track, I was like, Okay, now I gotta start sitting that spot. And I had not sit that spot yet. And in fact, the funny thing is I've killed three bucks out of that stand, and they were all the first time I sat at it. So in the past I had done it more with timing, you know, I sat there in November fourteen because I knew, you know, that time of years is when the bucks tend to start coming through that area because they start to I don't know what it is if that hurt that little doe group there, you know, comes in, you know, if they have a couple of does that come in right at that time or what, But that just always seems to be that kind of November four through is that little window there where that particular spot heats up you can hunt it October, you know, Halloween, nothing, and it's just it's been like that. I don't know why it's just goes back to you know, just knowing knowing your areas, I guess. But anyway, UM, so like I said, you gotta I get into this spot using hip waiters. You gotta walk through basically this high water and you come in way behind all of that cover, so you're coming in kind of the backside. And there's another another couple of people that hunt have hunted up in that field that I was talking about, so that that field gets some pressure so it keeps the deer back in this cover where I was hunting. Um, and I snuck in there and I got up in that spot. I got up in that tree. This was after work, and you know, I was just sitting there and I, I don't know, it was one of those things I was kind of probably daydreaming. I should have seen this buck coming from a long ways away, but I didn't. And uh, I kind of look up and he's like at thirty five yards closing in fast. And this was about thirty minutes of daylight left and I see him and I see that big old hook coming off the one side, and I was like, oh man, there he is. So that that track led me to to sitting that spot for at that time frame. Um, I probably was going to start. You know, I always put in a set or two before the gun season there because it routinely heats up during that time and this year was no different. But I just I just caught his track and that was the deer that I was moving in on. And it's just one of those situations where the terrain and that water they don't have to go through that funnel, but they almost always do. It's just a really it's just a really high percentage spot. If you can just stay out, if you can stay out and wait till the time is right, it's it's just money. But if you is your access an important part of making that spot work too, because I feel like spots that are way back on the cover are so tricky to hunt when you're trying to go in for an afternoon set like that. How'd you pull it off with a blowing every thing out? Yeah? Well, what I do is I go through this this water, this high water. You know, most people I guess that would probably hunt that would go through the bean field and go through the cover and you know, oh there's a funnel that they're going through. A lot of the thick stuff and would would totally bump at least the doe groups out. There's not a lot of there's never any books that've been there, but they would definitely blow out that cover. So where I come in is there's some high water. Um. So you just put on you know, put on some hip waiters and you just kind of slowly go through the water and I come up low and then up kind of up over the terrain feature I was talking about was basically just a little knob or a hill and then I'm I have a tree prepped right there, so you know, I don't I don't know, occasionally bump a deer going in, but very rarely because it's it's it's high water. Usually the deer in that water. So yeah, it's it's a it's a unique spot. Um. And like I said, if you hunt it, you know, if you go in there and you hunt October one in October tenth and and you know you do that, you ruin the spot. You you educate the deer that are living in there, which is a small go herd um. So it's just it's just one of those spots that can really be good if you can be patient. Yeah, and I feel like in past it was either past podcast conversation or maybe an article you've written for word hunt in past years, you alluded to it with this case that the three kills you have in this property were all the first time. And don't you have record of some crazy number of your kills that were first hunt in a stand for the year. Isn't it just a very significant portion of your kills? Yeah, I have to go back and and update because there's been I did have a statu a couple of years ago. I'd have to go back and look at that, but I mean it was over sevent of the time. It's the first sit um. Yeah, so I mean that there's a lot to be said for that. But there are definitely spots out there, and some guys will argue this, but there are definitely spots out there that you can if the access is good and you're not bumping deer, you can you can hunt it repeatedly. It's just it's those spots are kind of rare um and what I what I do in those spots is I try to I try to identify when that area is I have the highest percentage of getting that kill. You know, if it's late October. Okay, fine, if I have really good access, Yeah, if I have the opportunity, I might, I might sit a spot like that three or four times in a row. I've done that before and just really hammer that time frame. Um, you know when it's when it's your chances are best. But those those spots are hard to find. Um. But when you do that, man, they can certainly be uh, they can certainly be really good. Yeah. I feel like one of the of course, you've got to have your wind plan nailed down to get a spot you can hunt over and over and over again. But then also I feel like you need that access and entry or entry and exit nailed So I I have a spot like this where in the past I'd hunted one time and then trying to get out of there, you just blew out all sorts of deer. Every time you go out of there, you're gonna blow out deer because it's right near food sources. M Um. But I finally, this is well documented. I've talked about this many times in the past in the podcast. This is this little area where it killed Frank um where I found out. As long as I get someone to drive through these fields and spook off the deer or pick me up or something like that. If I get that, I can get out of there and deer will be right back at the next day. And so this year the spot I killed Frank, I hunted either that, hunted that ground blind where that I killed him out of I don't know, five times maybe before I shot him, and then to two other stands within you know, like a four acre five acre area. I mean, I hunted that little tiny four acre chunk a bunch. I mean, basically that's all I had, because that's what I kept showing up. And I don't think it could have done that unless I've really been careful of the wind and sent control and everything and then had that exit strategy nailed. Yeah, yeah, you you when when I look at that place, I couldn't believe you were getting away with what you were getting away with. But that's the thing. You know from experience, you know that way better than I do. You know what you can get away with and and and you are also taking some maybe some risks, uh, you know, because because you know, the deer was there and we didn't know how long he was going to be there, and um, he had a history of you know, not being a homebody, so you're maybe taking some risk, but you you know what you can get away with on your farm, and it really paid off. Man. That was that was well done. Yeah, it was funny every time, you know, Just like you said, I I did think that every time I went in there, I was like, oh gosh, I can't believe I'm going back in here again. This is the third time, this is the fourth time, this is the fifth time. So every time I'm thinking, this is the last time I'm gonna get away with this. But I have to do it because this is the only spot has been showing up. And fortunately Um was able to keep getting away with it more and more until finally he slipped up. But but I think when you find those little spots, you gotta really figure out the nuances there that that make them work. Otherwise the time that first set the second set, that's really your golden opportunity. Yeah. Yeah, And I think a lot of times, you know, I got some some guys, I know, some friends you know that that i'd call them hardcore hunters, And you know, I think I think that's where most of the mistakes are made, is just not recognizing that and you know, maybe jumping in a little too soon just because they got the itch to hunt and you know, they got a food plot and you know, or or this is their you know, their family farm or whatever, and they're just kind of going in with no real plan, with no real intel, just to sit. And you know, if if you don't have that preparation or don't gain that knowledge, you know, that intimate knowledge of the areas you're hunting, I feel like you're at a real disadvantage. And it's not easy to do because it does take some commitment and some time to really uh you know, to really learn those, like you said, those nuances of of each area. So um, yeah, it's just you know, it's it's it's a tough thing to to do. It takes time, but man, it just it just pays off huge. Yeah, definitely does so. So speaking then of kind of figuring out the nuances of spots and all that, that kind of transition is nicely I feel like to your Ohio story because this is kind of a situation where you learn something new this year, right, Yeah, yeah, Ohio. This year Ohio's kind of bed my nemesis. Um, you know, you hear about how good Ohio is, and you know, I've that's that's one state I have struggled into consistently. Uh, you know, shoot big bucks in and and I don't hunt. It's nice to hear that makes me feel a bit better somewhere. Yeah, I don't hunt it much. Um, you know, I I rarely hunt it over you know, five or six times a year. That's probably a big part of it. And the area hunt is northwestern Ohio, which is you know, the county I'm in is, and I think the bottom five you know for trophy bucks in Ohio. So it's it's not a real great spot, but it's close to home and gives me another tag and another opportunity. But had some luck there over the years, for sure. Um. And it's consists of a lot of open ground like this is big farming country flat and the cover consists of really small wood lots anywhere from you know, a couple of acres too. You know, if you had one that was like seven to ten acres, that's pretty big one. Um. So it you know it low deer density. Uh, you know that the buck quality I think can be good, but I think the you know, they just don't. A lot of deer don't survive there. They do a lot of deer drives and and there's just not a lot of places for him to hunt. But um, there's a spot I hunt down there. Um, and there's quite a few other people that that hunt in this area. And I'll go back to early November. I was I went out to this spot. There's a nice little funnel there where I've had some luck in the past. I killed the buck there in two thousand and eight, the same funnel, and I went in and I was wearing my gilly suit and I was hunting from the ground, and basically I was just trying to stay mobile. Um. I wanted to kind of, you know, work on some ground hunting. I always try to try to, you know, I like to improve in different areas of my hunting. And I hunted from the ground quite a bit, um, and I like to do that more and more. It seems like I'm on the ground more and more these days. But anyway, I wanted to, you know, just do a lot of still hunting kind of glassing and see what I could come up with. And I knew there was a couple of good ones in the area there was a ten point and an eight point that I almost shot. Almost shot the eight point late October, right when we got back from Nebraska. Um. But the ten point um looks like a probably a probably a three year old buck um if I had to guess, but he was one, you know that I would have looked at hard too. And so anyway, the gist of that hunt was I came, you know, as as prime time was approaching. I was kind of like sneaking through, you know, the edge of this field and down into this cover and I just got tucked into this cover where I could see this real skinny field. I can't see it from the road at all, and there's a low spot and a lot of times, like at dusk, deer will come out into this the skinny field and the slow spot, and I was just kind of working up to that edge, and I was working up to that to that I was just gonna sit the rest of the night because I hadn't seen anything prior. And I'm kind of like hunched over, kind of sneaking down the edge just inside the cover, and all of a sudden, I see this deer break into the field and I'm like, oh man, I got down on one knee and I put my glass up and it's that wide tin and I was like, oh man, here he is. He's like angling right towards me, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is really gonna happen. Like I I didn't have other than a picture of this, dear, I didn't know anything out him. I just know during the run there's a few spots where, you know, if deer moving, this is where they tend to go through and through the skinny field on this low spot, they can't be seen from the horizon in any direction, so it's just a real popular spot for them to get from one patch cover to the next. And I'm setting up or I'm setting I'm sitting there and he's kind of angling towards me, working his way into into range. And he stops and he looks back from the way he came. I'm like, oh man, there must be more deer coming or something. And then all of a sudden, he just takes off and I'm like, oh gosh, he like runs right by me, no shot, And then I'm just kind of sitting there like trying to figure out what happened. And then all of a sudden, I see this guy walk out into the field and he's carrying a crossbow and I'm like, he got getting me like serious, like primetime, you know, walking around, And then I thought to myself, I was like, wait a minute, I'm doing the same thing, you know. Yeah, So I couldn't end up talking to the guy. I mean, obviously it w wasn't wasn't mad at him. He didn't know and he was just doing the same thing. He was just out kind of sneaking around, and um, I didn't know he was out there, and he didn't know I was out there. So we exchanged numbers and he uh, he was planning on gun hunting that area with his brother, um, and he just kind of telling me, you know what the what they're plan was and all that. So I actually came out the very next day to set up on that ten point and I was like, okay, he came through here, and this was a long shot. My confidence in this time was was low, but I could hunt and it was the only thing I had really to go on. So I went back about you know, fifty yards where that deer came through the cover, and I set up and I didn't see a deer that night. But I did see his ladder stand. He had a big, giant, elaborate ladder stand, a sent Wick ten yards in front of it, and a pea bottle and the instead of rattling antlers up there, and I was like, oh man, Like I was like, guess you know, I gotta I gotta rethink this area and get out of here. So that hunt was a bust um. And then I don't know if you weeks go by, um the season and where you keeping tabs on this at all? As those few weeks went violent, did you swing down and check cameras or anything at all? Or we just waiting. I checked cameras one time, Um I went and I don't remember exactly the day, but it was it was probably a week or so after hunting was winding down a little bit, you know, Michigan gun season was under way, and um, you know, I was trying to get you know, the kids out and you know, just family stuff, and so hunting was winding down a little bit for me. I still had my Ohio tech, but I, I don't know it was satisfied with my season, but I wanted to, uh, you know, still giving hones stuffort in Ohio because I had some time, um, but I wasn't really planning on gun hunting down there. Um. So anyway, I checked the camera I don't know a week or so after that, and there was nothing on it. So I just end up pulling that camera and didn't hunt for well, I didn't hunt again until the day I went out there, um and end up getting my buck. But I went out on the November and I was gonna basically just go scout. I was gonna put another camera up, and the gun season had started. Ah, I can't remember what day it was. I think it was the six of November. So this is this is gun season had already started here, and this is a spot where Okay, it's a a landowner that lets he pretty much lets anybody hunt if you ask what he's real particular about certain things. He he tells some people they can bow hunt, he tells some people they can gun hunt, and it's just kind of his way to kind of keep control of everything. And quite a few people out there. But usually, uh, you know, I'm one of the guys that's allowed to bow hunt. So even during gun season, I can only bow hunt. But usually during the archery season not too bad, maybe a couple of guys out there. UM. So I was out there scouting UM, and basically my plan was to try to find, you know, some cover an area of of the property where you know, maybe the pressure hadn't been so high I could maybe get into some deer. I was gonna pop a camera up. I didn't have a plan other than just to do some end season scouting and try to find something to go off of. And what I did find out was that these guys had been doing quite a bit of deer drives. And that's the kind of big thing down there during on season deer drives, you know, pretty much every day of the gun season. And I went and kind of scouted some areas where I thought maybe the deer had been pushed into. And I was wasn't seeing much um and pretty much was kinda gonna call it quits on this this particular property and go check out a new area. And I was actually on my way out, on my way out back to the car, so imagine a big rolling hill of cut beans, and I was going walking back and there's this this low spot that kind of I don't know, between two gradual hills, the beans kind of go down to this low spot and that low spot, it's almost like kind of like a little drainage connects the big chunk of cover. When I say big, it's not big, but the thickest chunk of cover where you know, I had the encounter with the ten point where those guys have been doing a lot of their drives. Um, you know that sort of thing. This drainage connects that all the way for about I don't know, about a half mile through open ground, completely open ground, not a tree anywhere, to this little patch of woods right up by the road. And as I hit that low spot, I look and I see running tracks. I could see them from quite a way away. And I get up there and I look, and I'm like, man, these are big tracks. So I don't have any idea what you know what the deer looks like. I hadn't never seen these tracks before. I just they looked fresh. The deer's running and it's heading towards that patch of cover up by the by the road, the wood little wood lot. So I just start walking them. I'm down low, so imagine I'm down low. You know, you can't nothing can be seen when you're down in this little drainage from you know, any road or any surrounding area. It's it's it's low enough where anything could travel down there and not be seen. And uh, I just start following the tracks and i start approaching the wood lot, and I'm like, gosh, I wonder, you know, I wonder if he's in here. And this is a wood lite. I feel embarrassed to say, like I've never even looked at because you can see it from you can see it from the road, and you know those woods that almost look like, you know, like you can see into them, you know, I mean, they're like real wide open, there's no undergrowth. So I just now, it never struck me as an area that a mature deer would ever use, and I don't think it is under normal circumstances. I've seen deer in there. I've seen a couple, like a dough on a fawn pop out of it at dusk um, but I've never even thought about hunting it um, just because of the lack of cover. Um. But there is it's it's kind of like a rolling hill, hardwoods open and then at the very top there is a little thicket there. But it's small, and it's I mean literally next to the road, and then on the other side it's next to like a a small little highway kind of. It's not like a just a little two lane, you know, country highway. So it's like real close to a lot of action. But anyway, I sneak up and I sneak up to this wood lot and I just kinda you come down low, and then you start coming up to the wood lot, so you're low and you're walking up to the edge. And I peek in there and I see a deer in there about sixty yards and walking straight away from me, and all I see was just like giantly wide rack and I immediately dropped to a knee, and I was like, oh my gosh, Like was he just did he just run out of there? Like when I was scouting, I didn't know, or like was it from a deer drive? Has has he been in there? I didn't know. All these things were going through my mind, and I just watched him and he walks down into this ravine. The way this this woods is set up, there's like a ravine that goes in there and then it kind of goes up into this hill to a knob on top where there's a thicket, and I see him walking down into the ravine and I was just I had no bow, nothing, so I was like completely unprepared. I was basically on a scouting mission and that was it. So I just quickly backed out of there and I got to my car and immediately got on my phone. It looked like what the wind was going to be doing the next day or two, and called the wife and figured out what the plan was. And I couldn't get out hunting until twenty nine, which was two days. And I looked at the wind and everything looked good. I think, I it wasn't perfect, but I thought I could. Uh, if he was in there, I thought that I could. I could. If I can get in there without bumping him, I got a chance. I got a really good chance. In fact, I called my buddy Mike, and I said, if he's in there, if he's in there and I can get set up without spooking him, I said, I'm gonna I think I'm gonna shoot him. And uh, I just felt like it's just one of those small woodlots where like if you can get in there, I just where is he gonna go you know, everything around him is is wide open. I just don't see him, you know, go on out in the wide open field and in the middle of a gun season. But the real question was was even gonna be in there? Is he hiding out in there because the gun pressure. That was my that was my instinct, you know, that he was hiding out in their up while it's would he could, he'd be in that type of tiny woodlot. So um, I went in and I set up right. Initially, my plan was I wore I had my saddle on, but my initial thought was I'm not gonna be able to get up into a tree because it's just gonna be too risky. So I was just gonna try to work my way low and that the ravine again, get right under the edge, and then just kind of scoop my way in just a little bit, just so that I could see because it's so wide opening there. But as I got closer and closer, I was like, man, he's not gonna be in this wide open stuff. He's gonna be up in that thicket on the top, especially with the way the wind was blowing. My wind was blowing me towards that direction. But it was kind of like just missing it. And I said, if if he's you know, if he's gonna be like on the leeward side, it's he's gonna be up in that thicket just off the other side. So that's kind of what I banked on. I was just like, you know, if he's in here, that's where he's gonna be, you know. And I kind of I peeked in the woods and you can see. I mean, if there's deer and there the that side of the woods, you can see forever. So I looked glassed all around. I was like, there's nothing. So he's either not in here or he's up in that thicket. So I was able to set up in a tree. I got set up with my sticks, got all set up on the the settle and everything. I felt real good, and I just waited, and you know, nothing happens. Nothing happens. I just keep glassing up of that thicket up there. You can't see. You can just see the edge where it gets and then when I say thick, it's probably about the size of like a square foot house. I mean, it's not big. And then and then it goes down the backside, so there's like a little a little knob there, and I'm sitting and then all of a sudden, it's kind of dying down in the evening, and I hear something walking up there. I hear footsteps like in the leaves, and I'm like, oh my gosh. I was like, he's I just setting myself as like he's up there. I can't believe this, you know, It's just it was my adrenaline started just pouring and my heart was going and I was like, for whatever reason, I got really worked up on this diard. I think because it was like such a long shot, you know, and such a unique opportunity. It just I wasn't expecting anything like this during the middle of the Ohio gun season, you know. So I'm sitting there and I hear him moving around, and then all of a sudden, I see his antler's crest and then he starts walking. He comes over the top of the hill, and then he starts walking down to that same ravine I saw him walking down. So he comes down, he kind of side hills down to that ravine. So he's walking the exact opposite way that he was when I first saw him two days prior. And he's coming and I'm I'm like right at the base of that ravine, like just up the other kind of creates a v you know, like one one hill goes down, then there's a ravine and I'm on the other side hill, so I can shoot the ravine and shoot across. And he comes right down and he ends up I don't know, sixteen yards from me, and I shot him and he takes off going back down, back down the ravine and he tumbles over about I don't know, fifty or sixty yards away, and that was it. Yeah, it was. It was incredible in this deer. Uh, he he was run down. He's an old deer. Um. I didn't know what he was at first, but he's an older deer that I have had some pictures of and after talking with unfortunately, uh, the word got out real quick that I had gotten this deer because those other guys were out gun hunting that day and not that I you know, it was intentionally going to try to hide it from anybody, but it just you know, on areas where there's other guys hunting, it's a lot of times that can just lead towards, you know, some bad luck for you. In the future. But yeah, it was just one of those things, right. There was no way around it because I was by myself, and I went up and talked to the landowner, and then those guys were there and they found out that I had shot it, and we all went and got it. And they had had pictures of that deer um from this year and last year. I had pictures of him last year, and one of those, I said, actually shot that buck last year in the neck with a gun. And there's a picture of him that was given to me with a giant wound in his neck. So he's a really cool dear. He's super wide, super long main beams. But man, he was in rough shape. He was in really rough shape, and I think I get the sense that he probably wouldn't have made it. Um. He's his spine was sticking out, his hips were really bony, his his body size looked really run down, like more than more than you would expect, like a a buck that rutted hard, you know what I mean. He looked like he was just really in bad shape. So yeah, man, just crazy crazy hunt. Um. You know, a lot of luck involved there, But um, I'm glad, i I'm glad I didn't give up on Ohio because I was really close to just you know, with all those guys out there and doing deer drives and stuff like, I didn't have a whole lot of confidence in the area, you know. Yeah, Well, well you said this to me back in October when we did our Nebraska podcast, when you said, Uh, it's very humble of you to say that it was luck, but very rarely is that really the case. Usually there's you know, the older dog is what is it? Uh? Luck is where preparation meets opportunity. UM. I think that by doing all the preparation and knowing how to make the right decisions at the right times and how to adjust that that kind of stuff is what allows you to take advantage of luck when it does come your way. UM. So as as I hear you say, kind of walk us through this whole, this whole season of years. Um and when I think about the fact this is not an anomaly. Last year you killed I don't know, three or four bucks, and the year before that you did it. In the year before that you did it, and the year before you did that. Um And and as alluded to, you're always doing this just efficient is the only word I keep coming back to, just more efficiently than anyone I know. Um. And as I'm trying to pick this apart listening to you and from seeing what you're doing in the past, I'm going to try to nail down. Let me give you a couple of things that I think are like my takeaways from trying to learn as much as I can from you, and then you tell me what you would add. Um, it seems like your success and the ability to to achieve so so much hunting success without a big, fancy property, without a whole ton of time, without a bunch of vacation days, is that number one year level of scouting in the off season and in season is just next level. Just more work goes into that than almost anything, probably more than hunters out there. Number two. Part of that preparation, part of that scouting is you have so many different options available that once the hunting season comes, you can cycle through them and you can be in the right spots at the right times based off experience, or you go in there either scouting or observing or thing and then adjusting as you go through, and then you swing for the fence with many, many of your hunts, you're either kind of observing or you're going for the kill, and you know that you can go for that kill, and it can be a high risk hunt because you've got another spot you can go to, and another spot you can go to, and another spot you go to. So because of that, your hunts are disproportionately high odds for success compared to the average guy or girl because you are doing kill sets almost only to the kill sets are learning. Kill sets are learning, and you do that all year round and you don't give up, and then you've gained experience of the years to be able to make the right adjustments when necessary. When I try to drill down at a at a base level, if I'm trying to like oversimplify this, that's how maybe I would paint the Andy May success model. Um, did it get it right? Or what would you add if there's anything else makes you se efficient? I think I think you know. I think that's it. I really do. I think you held it. Um, you know all the scouting, the preparation. Um, you know that's something I enjoy. So to me, that's just normal, and I sometimes forget that. I don't forget. I'm aware of it, but sometimes I don't always I guess think of that. You know, not everybody does that or not everybody does it as much um as I do. And there's certainly are guys that do and some guys that do it more. But that that plays a huge role in uh. And and and probably that's the number one factor is just you know, knowing your area and being prepared and having you know, having like you said, a lot of spots to go. Um, you know, and AND's kind of setting those up, kind of setting the groundwork up for success. Um. And then you know, I always try to two locate you know, four or five bucks if if I'm just talking Michigan and northern Ohio, because I consider that kind of my home ground. Um, you know, I try to locate four or five bucks, the four or five best books I can find. Usually they're the most mature bucks. And you know, um that's those are the ones I tend to focus or uh you know, focus around and try to learn as much as I can. And um, you know, if I only had one or two, uh, you know, I don't think you see as much success. Um. You know, I think our buddy Joe Elsinger said the same thing. I think he takes a similar approach. He tries to find like six or seven bucks to focus on, knowing that he won't be successful on you know, two or three or four of them, but he will be successful on a couple. Um. So I think, you know, I think there's that goes a long way, you know, kind of doing the prep and the groundwork to make sure that your season is set up for success and not going into the season with without a plan, you know, and just hoping that you know, a big one is going to show up, you know, on your spot during the rut or um. You know, I think I think guys would would be I would have a better chance of success having a couple of scenarios set up like that. Um, you know, utilize everything, utilize public knock on doors, you know, do whatever you canada um to kind of set up several of those situations, and then you know, I think I think you'll be able to have more success doing it that way. Yeah, yeah, I know. UM, And we've talked about this in the past, that that I'm self aware enough about myself to be able to recognize that as a spot that I need to improve on. I I have fallen victim to sometimes settling for a couple of spots I know I've got and UM although they're usually pretty decent UM and then I have a few years found myself having that bite me in the butt. So I think that this conversation is just another great reminder for me that this offseason got to keep on ramping it up, keep ramping it up every year, and to your point, always try to have plan for success. I think the way you put it, there is nice plan for have a plan for success that is not asking for luck. You're not depending on luck, You're not depending on it just happening this year. You've got a plan A, and if that doesn't work, there's Plan B. And if that doesn't work, this plan c d E F UM. I think if you want to be consistent, that's the right way to go about it. So Andy Man, I just I'm I'm glad that you um I have been so generous with your time and knowledge and experience because it helped me a lot personally, and I guarantee you it's help. It's helping a lot of people have been listening over the last year and a half two years since UM super being able to start talking here, so so thanks to Andy. Yeah, no problem, man, it's it's fun. I love talking about hunting and get a little more comfortable with it on the podcast. So anytime, anytime you want to talk hunting, I'm I'm game. I think I think you're going to be stuck doing a bunch more because I enjoy these and uh, man, if if if every year, if we hunt together, if our seasons go as well as I did this year, we're gonna have to play a whole lot more hunts together because this is a good year for us. Yeah, no, kidd, And I was gonna say, like, you know, we're talking about you know, my season here, but you had a pretty magical season yourself, So I think you think you're on the right track. Man, for sure, you got it. You gotta good game plan, and I see, let's see good seasons in your future for sure. Yeah. Well, like like like both of us often like to say, you always just gotta keep getting better, right, always learning, always improving, and uh, that's that's my game plan moving forward. So with that, Andy, I'll let to go. Let's talk soon, all right, buddy, thank you, And with that, the only thing I will add just to echo what I mentioned at the top of the show is Merry Christmas, thank you and until next year, stay wired. Tony