00:00:01 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to episode number forty of The Hunting Collective. I happen to be Ben O'Brien and also happened to be in Bozeman, Montana with my friends Joannest Patelis and uh first time guests on the show, Randy Newburgh. Randy Newburg of Fresh Tracks and many other awesome pieces of content on his platform. So we love Randy. Just to say, what a good dude. What a pleasure to sit in a room and talk with Randy and have Janni at our side. It was a great conversation around ethics, moral principles, as it were ethical questions that you all submitted and we tried our best to answer. But they're always interesting to to bat around, interesting to um I d eight on and and find ways to express some pretty complicated ideas and hopefully UM way that are clear and I can clarify some of your issues out there in the woods. So without further ado, please enjoy Randy Newburg and honest tell us, Mr Randy Newburgh, how are you, sir? I'm so close to perfect, Ben, you couldn't measure the difference, and I wouldn't try. Thanks for having me, Thank you for being on nice. But tell us how are you. How are you doing? I'm doing well, thank you. Yes, we're randy. We're just coming off the meat Eater Christmas party, the first ever Bozeman Meat Eater Christmas party. Um, it was a good a good time, but I was most struck by the like the amount of actual good game and other seafood that we actually, hey, we should have invited you. Now I feel bad. I'm telling you how great it was. It's all right. I could have brought something over. You know, I had a bison tag this year, and I could have brought some bison. Yeah, you got a few steaks, and I do. But you know, I get it. Yeah, I'll get over it next year. Yanni, you injected a secret deer ham. Mm hmm, I never did get I wanted to before we start, get your method on that, because it was If anybody saw my instagram, it was one of the best wild game hams I've ever eat in my life. So please the secret deer definitely helps because it is one tender little animal. But my neighbor did the same exact process with a young mule deer's ham for Thanksgiving, and I had some of it a couple of days later leftovers and it was equally good, tender, juicy. But yeah, I didn't do anything special, just took Brian recipe out of the old Meat Eater cookbook that better go out and one. If you want one before the next hunting season, get ordered it now because they're back ordered. You'll get it about yeah June. Um no, I'm joking there. I won't take that long that there's more coming. I don't know exactly when. But anyways, I made a Brian and I did two hams, and uh, I think I just injected them twice. But I have one of those, um, I don't know what they call. It's just like a meat injector. It's like it's a it looks like a stainless steel giant needle. It's but it's not sharp like a needle. And the end of the what would be the needle has three or four little ports. You fill it up with Brian and you just jamming into that ham and push it in there. And I don't know I did that twenty or thirty times per ham until the Brian stort of starts squirting out of the holes you've been making. And uh, I might I think I only did that twice. I did when I first put it in the brine, and then maybe two days later, and I brined it for I put it on Saturday morning and we started cooking at Wednesday at about two or three in the afternoon, So five days and uh yeah. There might have been a couple of gray spots right around the bone where Brian didn't quite reach. Didn't matter to me. But it was good, fantastic, fantastic. We smoked it for I don't know, four to six hours around yeah, something something like that. It was. It was pretty unbelievable. You you ever seeking to your hunted, right, I have not, because listen to you guys talk about this. I have a full let's a blacktail ham in my freether right now, off fault hind quarter, trying to figure out what to do with that. This may be the way to go. Yeah, what I like about it when you brian it and then smoke it, it seems like it gives you much better leftovers than with just a roast. Roasts are good. You can then slice them into a sandwich. But it's like that hamminess of it, you know what the Brian does. Um, the last one we did. We did it for a little cooking special we did, and my daughter and I the other daughter in my wife just weren't that into it. So she and I ate on it for a good week. Well and yeah, it's just like because you've brind it and smoked. It's just it's cured, right, not going bad. No, it's a sandwich for however long you wanted to be. Well, yeah, we'd have it in the morn with eggs. We make a sandwich, then we reheat it and have with some mustard in the evening. It's the way, it's the life. That's the life. Well normally, normally, well, we bullshit way more. We would probably bullshit for another hour. That's what I excel at. Yeah, me too. That's why I'm sure. That's why I'm here is the Janice has been on my platforms before, so he knows that I'm below average at everything other than b Yeah, I try to be. I try to be just just under average at everything in life. So not to increase expectations, right, I'd like to keep them right there at average. But for some reason, we were talking about this before we hit record um. For some reason, ethics has been something that like people have been sending me and I'm sure sending for the media podcast, and I'm sure you're any like these ethical quandaries, these ponderings that people have that they can't answer. They you know, they trust the three of us somehow to answer them. Oh, I don't, I don't know, I don't get it. Don't ask me why. Speaking merely for myself, I could be misplaced trust, But yes, me too. But that's what makes the ethics thing interesting and a struggle. And that's something we'd like to talk about, right, because it is based off your like personal moral compass. And I'm not saying that everybody wrote in doesn't have a strong one, but just maybe on this one particular question or topic they have, it's just wavering a little bit and they're just looking for maybe a little bit of guidance or just some other people's opinions. Yeah, I mean, hunting is such a varied practice, right. You do things that you have different perspectives, different experiences, different traditions, and the way that things happen, and like when your traditions, um, the way you do things collide with someone else is sometimes it could seem like something on the ethical is happening, which is that's just the way we do it right. And I, I said, on a nonprofit board for thirteen years, and our goal was about hunting behavior and hunting ethics. And one of the things that was very common to the quandaries presented to us is how people can can conflated, conflicted, can confused, whatever term you want to say. Uh. They seem to use the term hunter ethics as a way to speak of their personal preferences. And there's a hunter who's serious indoe philosophy. He's a professor at Cornell University. His name is Jim Tantillo. And Jim was very good at talking about the true essence of what is an f what what is ethics, and what is personal preference. So I whenever someone uses the word ethics, I start having this real almost like then my intentas are vibrating. Is this a question about true ethics or is this just someone saying this is my personal way of doing things and someone else does it differently and I want confirmation that I'm doing it right and they're doing it wrong or and I I don't want to say I stray away from it, but a lot of times I will do it or my response will be kind of what you just said, Ben, is that this might be a cultural, geographic, whatever difference in how we do it, but is it truly an ethical issue? Yeah? And I think you know every conversation we have around ethics, when you hear the question or you hear the story, what you're thinking is it is this an ethics situation or are you just wondering why you're ways different than someone else? Right? Like it just it always ends up that way. Can you just, in Layman's terms, kind of explain a little bit about how how he differentiated the two, like what was the main difference between ethics and just like your personal way? Well, Jim is one of these people who have a brain bigger than my body. So I'm going to destroy it by trying to summarize the You take someone with a PhD and philosophy and ask an accountant to explain what they're talking about, you're heading down the wrong path to start with. Uh. But he, Jim does a very good job of, in a brief system or a brief term, explaining the kind of how we as us human culture arrived at this notion of ethics. There are certain accepted norms and certain unaccepted norms. Now, the norm is usually the motivation and the person feelings of why or or what you're doing in contrast to how you your motives versus others. Okay, a preference is, well, I shoot a traditional bow rather than a countpound bow. Some people will try to mix it up as an ethics argument. No, it's not. Some people will say, well, I hunt bears over bait, but or someone will say I spot in stock them, but those other guys out of the hun him over bait. That's not an ethics issue. That is really an issue related to preferences, right. Uh. Your motive for either of them is to go out and get some some food and fill a tack. How you do it, there's not usually an ethics issue. Yeah, And most of the things that we'll we'll tackle here this afternoon are your first reaction a lot of times as well. It depends, it depends on what your motivation is, on what your value system is, on the angle at which you come at this, you know, And I think that's like moral principles in general are just tough to define. You know. It's such a man, it's it's such a malleable idea that it's almost scary to like dive into and try to answer these things because there's there's no answer. There's sometimes where you d have to draw an ethical line, like that is an ethical one. You damn well know it, sir, I mean you know it. I think we often feel that we as hunters are different than the rest of society, when we're really nothing more than a cross section of the bigger society. And if you step out of the hunting world into any other part of our society, there are the same ethics questions. Obviously they have a different contact and a different discussion about them. But every activity in society has its ethics. Whether we're talking business, whether we're talking about volunteerism, whether we're talking about the elopment of landscapes, whatever it is, you end up in the same areas of discussion about what's ethical not ethical. Very often in those same discussions people use a sideboard of well, legal is my sideboard, and I'm willing to come inside that even further to define what my creed or my ethic is. Yeah, but we're no difference than the rest of the society. We think we are, but we're not yeah, And I think it's good the hunting community in recent time that you can probably you know, having your experience UM much deeper than mine. But I think in recent years that there's been a more self awareness, like more like, hey, we this is complex, this is we are killing something here, rather than just we do it this way and don't question us. I think there's more given the fact that we had four hundred and seventy one people message Instagram with different things they were wondering about, Like people are willing to go there, They're willing to do it. It's definitely a modern human luxury to sit around and think about these things. That is truely honest, that that is very true. I think if there's a and you get into that modern luxury discussion in the hunting world, when you see cultural traditions that are not considered offensive, say in the out just outlying areas of Africa, compared to what it is in the United States or even where the person comes from. So h a U. S. Citizen who goes to Africa and does certain things is going to be judged way differently than someone who lives in Africa and does certain things. And we we just put really critical, uh, microscopes on people based on what their background is based done where they're from geographically, and back to your point of luxury. Since we in the United States have luxuries beyond most of the rest of the world, we're going to get judged differently than somebody from South America and the rainforest or someone from Sub Saharan Africa or something. Yeah. I mean it's and it's much like, as you know, especially in hunting, the national world doesn't really have any ethical quand elk aren't like wondering should we mow down this pasture because we're hungry and wolves are like, I don't know if we should take that calf down. Yeah, you know what, we got them kind of pinned into this box canyon feeling a little on us. Not fair, it's not fair. Let's let him get back out in into the prairie where we can have a longer chase and then if we get one we'll feel good about now. They're just like A to B A to B. And when you get into ethics versus preferences, there are some that are just so if you step back and you weren't a hunter, the hypocrisy of it to someone who's not a hunter is glaring and I shoot grouse on the ground. I am unapologetic that I shoot grouse out of trees, Grouse on the ground, Grouse that fly, not just with your bulb while your old, but with a shotgun. If I come up to a tree and there are three grouse up in that tree, there's gonna be three grouse on the ground. You're coming home now. There there are people who would say in the same with peasants. So here here's my contradiction. I don't shoot pheasants on the ground, okay. But to a non hunter who's not familiar with our customs, they would say, why would you flush an animal where you have a greater likelihood of missing or you know, not a complete lethal kill. Why is that considered your norm? You don't flush an elk, You don't flush you dear are your weight? So to those not in the hunting world, they look at us like you people have some really crazy ideas about what's right and what's wrong. Yeah, we were talking about it yesterday around the European UM feeling on bow hunting. Most of Europe they're like, we're just done. That's it's either illegal in some places, or they just it's just frowned upon. Starting to change a little bit. Some places I know of, but traditionally you go over there, it's like, we shoot things with rifles because that's the most effective tool, right that there is. But at the same time, and I've only been Bulgarian, Germany and some other places, but at the same time they shoot running game, they do driven hunts. I'm like, wait a minute, I could maybe get with you on the first part, but the second, Like what that doesn't mean you could shoot shoot running things because you have rifles. You should still approach it as you should try to make make ethically it should probably be standing. I would say, I mean fishing with my wife as a contradiction, my wife has a statement that she says all the time, if you hook them, you cook them. So those who listen to my platforms know that my wife is a fanatic while angler, and while I are as good at table fires, you're going to find in the fresh waters in North America, the limit in Montana's five. When we go there, once she has her five fish were done. Then when I catch my five fish, she's on me. Let's go, honey, we're into him. Yeah, you know, we've been searching for three days. We found them. That's not going out And she just crosses her arms and give me this. No, this is about acquiring food, and don't be thumping and messing with these poor fish and taking them out of the water. And I know some people listening are gonna be like, man, your wife's got some issues. But it's just her value system of where she's at with that. And I would say that's the biggest reason. And even though we live in the fly fishing capital of the world, or some would say here in Bozeman, Montana, the sour looks she got when we first moved here, where I knock a trout on the head and throat and the cooler and we're gonna eat it. That almost the That's where she part of what drove her to become more of a walleye fisherman. While anglers don't have quite the what would I say, the the worry about having to release every fish as the trowal world does. So I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I'm just saying here's two people living in the same household who have completely different perspectives or somewhat different perspectives just on something. Fish and fish get treated in the eyes of our society differently than mammals, differently than bird, differently than I was just gonna say, I find that, like I always tell cash re LEAs fly fisherman, somebody's like, I'm gonna catching least fisherman. I'm like, that's an interesting way to put it. But hunting has already had society is kind of already showing its light on hunting and said, what's going on over there? I don't really like that. I don't know if I don't like that, that doesn't seem ethical. Fishing, especially fly fishing, hasn't hasn't gotten that yet, like that it hasn't been where um, a guy with a fish, a giant fish that he caught that he knows he's gonna throw back is getting called out on social media and because it's just I would say, it's probably just the thing that they're catching, rather than if they were catching an elkins throw out it back be different. So I just throw those out there to give the audience some contact of how I look at this and answer these questions is I try to sort out what's a true ethic dilemma ethical dilemma versus what's just someone's preference or someone that's good. I like that we should start off each question. I think it's a real ethical questions. I think that is. And if if we get through these and we only find one ethical dilemma, I've got hundreds more. But I want to add to your thought Ranny about how you know people from the outside look at us, going, really, why do you guys think of it that way? Or do this or do that. One of my neighbors UM, as an archaeologist. She works here out of the university, and she listens to UM. I don't know if she's I should tell her to listen to the High Collective, but she listens to the Meteor podcast. She's not a hunter, but she listens to it from an archaeologists point of view of just like, how come this group of people thinks like this? And it's so interesting to her to like hear us like go back and forth and why you know we put limits and rules and the different things, and she just finds it fascinating, probably fascinating and positively humorous a time. Yeah, yeah, And I think that's only happening now because we're willing to have these conversations like in the past. I'm sure you can attest this, Randy, but it just wasn't. My dad would always say, just don't talk about it, you know, don't if you talk about it, the anti hunters might find out, you know, but not that it was what we were doing was wrong or illegal. It was just like, let's not worry about it, Like, let's do what we did we know to be right in ethical and if we posted out there to the world, we might have to change it. He must be just young enough. We're like posting out to the world was a thing when you were a kid. Because we never had that conversation and we hunted. We left Michigan and went to Wisconsin to deer hunt, and we had to drive through Chicago. So on the way back, I mean, my dad had every version of deer strap to We never actually did on the hood, but we certainly we definitely had deer on the top. We'd have him on those uh like the little care you can stick into your hitch just back there, and um, I definitely remember getting a few scals rolling through Chicago, But my dad wasn't speaking of my dad have so my head, hello, I will um. But he was not. He know, we never had that conversation. He wasn't worried about it. I think my you know, I don't know if we ever drive had it directly about social media or anything, but more just you know, this is our thing and this is what we do. And I think that was a prevailing thought of that of that generation, maybe thirty three years at the stage. I know you told me your song is I'm like, I don't know, I'm gonna I'm yeah. I mean, do you feel like it? You know, you saw a change in that, in the way that it has been treated. I do. Uh. I saw a lot of discussion of it happening in the nineties, but we were still in the print world at that time, mostly a little bit of TV. I uh. I often say that most of society, not just hunting, was not ready for social media. Yeah. You look at how we interact with each other on platforms, and I going to read the comments on my YouTube channel or my my Facebook page, and not just the Hunting room, but across my personal page also. Well, we as a society still aren't prepared for interacting with the anonymity that comes with that. Uh, and I think in the hunting world we weren't prepared for that. And we see it also just in the manner in which some of our messaging happens. We see messaging that just you shake your head and say, really, did you? Yeah? Do you thought that was appropriate? Okay? But yeah, I've seen a big change in that. I think social media or digital media maybe would be the better way to say it has brought hunting to a point where we have to have this discussion. If we aren't having these discussions daily, someone else other people are having these discussions about it, and uh, we probably don't. You want the conclude. Jan's a very discussion to drive where we're going with this. Yeah, yeah, it's I think it's very very healthy. Yeah. Well, let's let's get into some of these They are varied, and they are some of them are deep deep. Um. This is from Kevin Thompson. Kevin and a fellow Maryland or so shout out to that. Um. He said, I hunt mostly the Patuxent River State Park in Howard County and my friends family farm down in Calvert County. In short, my question around ethics is regarding crow hunting. My dad brought me up in the woods on crow hunting because it was a way to go introduce safe gun use and the idea of hunting. We never kept our kill. He still enjoys crow hunting, but I find it harder to rationalize as I've grown older and begun to hunt more and dive deeper into my own ethics of the sport. I love the time of in in the woods with him, but I find it hard to shoot a handful of crows and leave them for foxes. Might be over analyzing, but I want to see if you, Randy or the Eagle had thoughts on this. What do you think Randy Uh, As someone who's never crow hunted, I it's hard for me to put myself in those shoes because I I don't know what the cultural norms are in in Maryland about crow hunting. I don't know how it evolved or a lot of things have you have evolved from back in our our history where we viewed wildlife as a competitor for other resources, whether it's the game, dam manager and I believe crow that one time, we're deemed to be like like any predator. Yeah yeah, And so they get viewed a little differently over time. Some of those views of that have changed. I think just the fact that this is a son talking about his his father. Generationally we have different views because of how we've evolved and how we engage and interact with other hunters. Uh, what I would get back to, what's his dad's motive for shooting crows? Is it? Is it back to the old Hey, you know the farmer is tired of the crow is great and problems or is he had the mindset that crows are what are ruining the nesting of woodcock and rough grouse and whatever else there might be His dad might have a completely different view of why he's doing this. And so yeah, he says here to introduce safegun use and like what hunting is, which might be an oxymoron's like, that's not really what hunting is, not walking around the shooting the thing and leaving it lay right. Um, so we have that to go on. But even still, I think, I think I when I think about this type of thing, I think, as hunters, and whether we would admit it or not, we like when the gloves come off right. We like when it's a wild hog and we can shoot it out of a helicopter. Like there's something attractive to that because the ethics are so that can be stressful, and it can be confusing and complex to like a dress. Even this, um So, crows being you know, being from Maryland, I never knew a whole bunch of people at hunting crows, but I didn't have a few, and it was always around this is a nuisance animal. It's you know, it's a it's a nice way to spend your Saturday. It's leisurely because it's not wrapped in this ethical you know, quandary that we all have around what we kill. So I think for me, this is a good This is a pretty solid ethical question, especially around the relationship with the person who taught you how to hunt and going back to them and saying, hey, you remember the way you taught me. I now I am questioning the way that you taught me how to hunt or or the way that we did it. And I think this this is something that I've gone through with my dad. I'm like, hey, dad, remember the way that we did it when I was a kid. We don't. I'm not doing that anymore. Um So, I think even that it's probably a you know, generationally, you know, appropriate thing to to discuss and explorer. You know, if you ever hunt crows? Never have you know a few people that have? And do you have any feeling like you need to like you want to? No? No, definitely not. I mean again, for me personally, I think that, like all predators, they're part of the ecosystem. And I feel like, now sort of that's how science, game management and all that stuff looks at We're not just looking at it like oh, we need more else, so let's kill every wolf and every mountain lion and every grizzly bear. We've realized that that's not like the best way to have this like big happy hunting world, right, Um so yeah, it's it's not for me, but again it's legal. Do I think it's ethnically wrong to go and kill some stuff and let it lie? I mean, we do it with all kinds of predators, And I think that if we just said, if it wasn't crows, but let's say if it was chipmunks, Right, they're not even a predator, but they're kind of like a past. You can consider a raven or a crow a past. I guess you can't shoot ravens, right, only crows, But you know, no one's gonna have any ethical problem about you shooting too many chipmunks. Okay, maybe some ardent you know, real animal over but most hunters aren't gonna have this conversation over a chipmunk, right. Yeah, that's like that hierarchy of what we care about, right, they're greater. This is a perfect illustration of how we place certain values on some species and no value or a little value on other. Yeah. And if you you know, if you talk to an ecologist, they would say, like a healthy ecosystem very important, all things biodiversity, all things very important, you know. So let's not think of a predator or something we can kill a nauseum and you know, an unglit or a game animal something we should like really protect, like they all if we're doing it right, we're managing them all correctly, I don't. I mean, if someone called me up and said, hey, you want to go on a crow shoot, because I've never done it, I'd say, well, what do we do with the crows? And if they said, wow, we just leave them lay out there? Thing? And this is just my own personal yeah value is I think No, I'm I'm not interested. Yeah, No, I would say that too, But then someone might throw it back at me and say, well, you trapple out of nuisance beaver for people in Bozeman, Montana. Yeah, what's the difference. Well, I have friends like Joannas who like to eat them. We're also talking about beaver gloves, which I'm very interested and I salvage the hides, I said allegedly castors, I said all edged details. Ah, but so I'd have to look in the mirror and say, am I judging that person differently than some of my own behaviors? And yeah, because sometimes, yeah, I think it gets tricky where we look at someone else doing it and you and doing in your head, you can go, you know what, the only reason you could be going out there to do that is for fun? Yeah, right, Yeah, and then you're like, I don't like it because you're shooting stuff just for fun. But now back to this guy's story, I feel like his dad is just like it's another way to be out in the woods, right, And maybe I think what he needs to do and he needs to have a conversation with his dad about it and say, you know what, man, I want to still go out and shoot a bunch of stuff. Let's go and uh find some rabbits. Yeah, a lot of people. And now that I'm thinking about, I got a buddy that bates crows, like put the little decoys out. They put like a little poly of corn and sit there and just whack crows all day. And nobody's eating crows. Very few, very few. If someone is, please let us know. But I think that sound advice. I think I think it's it's say, hey, look, honey, is always fun. I mean, there's always some fun in it, um, But in this case, is there something else we can do to be having fun that doesn't involve, um, killing a bunch of crows? Or is like, hey, is this better for where we live, our you know, our place, our ecosystem. If it is, then let's keep doing it and let's have fun, and let's let's feel like we're ethically sound and we're doing all right in disregard um. Next one, and this is one I think that could go a while. But this comes from Scott Henry and he says, how do you feel about hunters using wild game to feed their dogs? This is a common practice among water fowler's and it's never sat right with me. I'm not talking scraps. Either they will go out shoot a limited birds with zero intention of eating said birds themselves. However, the birds aren't going to waste in quotation marks, they are being used as pet food. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and in general, feeding wild games, feeding wild game to your dogs. Randy, WHOA that that one strikes me as worrisome from the standpoint of it's in most states, feeding ducks or geese to your dog would be considered illegal. Yeah, it would be. That would be all right. So if we you can go under want and waste. Right, So if we say that the the absolute furthest side board in the discussion of ethics is legal, and we'll move in from there. This is even outside the sideboard of legal. I that one I have some ethical issues with if if you say I'm going to go out there for the sole purpose of shooting these and and you justify it by saying, well, I'm going to feed it to my dog. I've heard the same thing about spring bear in Montana. People say, oh, yeah, I shoot him my salvage to meat, but I feed it to my dog. Yes, all right, Uh, technically that's you know, that's illegal. So yeah, I think most people, when they analyze ethics, I would say, if it's outside the legal confines that our society has developed through our our process of governance and laws, if we really are a society of laws, it seems as though being outside the legal sideboards certainly puts it in the non ethical part. Yeah, yeah, that's a neat like, that's an easy one, and like and in this case, if yeah, if if you're going hunting to kill, you know, a game animal, and you intend to just feed it to your dogs, don't do that. We could probably say. Without none of us are wearing badges, we can all say, don't do that. And if someone in your group is doing it, tell him to stop doing it, because that is not the reason here. I think the next level would be in the case of hey, I'm just feeding them scraps, or I'm feeding them cut the meat that I don't like, or cut some meat that we don't have time to cook, or I'm just feeding them the shanks. Just just let ut you in the shanks. I think that probably happens a lot because it's attached to a bone and it would be easy to do. That's what are the thoughts around that, like how ethic you know, like this is something you could eat, but you're handing it over to Yeah, that's your dog. But I think that's where the discussion gets a little foggy here. Most states will say, let's use a big game animal. For instance, Most states in their regulations say what is the required salvage of meat or use of meat that you have to take from the field to not violate their rules they call want and waste. If you don't comply with that, you are subject to a citation for wasting in this game animal. So in most instances it's going to be front quarter, hind, quarterbackstraps, tenderloin. Some do or don't say the next meat. None of them say anything about the heart, the organs of living kidneys, and the ribs. Alaska is famous for strict one waste, but most states are famous for our pretty lax. So I'll use an example of a friend of mine who has probably raised my self introspection or whatever, if that's the term, the introspection of my own activities more than anybody. And and he's avidel hunter, only Hans Cawalc because he it's for him. It's strictly about food there. They're nothing about the aniler part of it that interests him in the least. He salvages as much of it as he can and down to every everything he can carry out of there. But a lot of the parts he boils or he processes or uses for dog and he takes it to the next level of He's not a big fan of how commercially processed dog food is made, what that does to the landscape, what that does to I mean, if you look at how dog foods made, there's that's a that's a can of ethics, societal ethics that might really, yeah, what can hunters do to help that out? So his theory is, I'm one, I'm not going to participate in that system. My dog is my closest non human friend, and I want them to have the highest ality food, just like I'm getting nice quality food. So livers, tongues, pieces that maybe he's not using, he brings back and he he feeds to his dog. And so some would say, well, what's the difference between an edible part, like you said, the liver, Why is it okay to feed that to your dog but not the breast off of allard yeah, now I've heard I've heard some people say. In fact, the friend Andrew McKean, well, I'm sure we all know. Well, um, him and I had this conversation one time around one waste laws, because I'm like, is a universal one and waste law something we should pursue, and he just it's like, man, that's that's that's tough, and it's tough. And his point was like, I think it could make criminals out of the squeamish, Like it could make criminals out of folks who would prefer not to eat these things, Like I could, I could see that. But I also like, even in I was just reading them Montana, that's a little far fetched. I mean, if you all a sudden said sure you guys start eating hoofs and eyeballs. Yeah, but I mean if you what around internal Oregan though, if you said you must take the liver, you must take the heart, you must take the paunch, like you could go far that far. But in Montana they say for big game animals, all four quarters above the hawk, including loin and backstrap, fall into the category of of one waist. Hunters who can't use the wild game meat could donate it to a neighbor, friend or local food bank. And it's like, are you donating it to your dog like man's best friend? Well, yeah, is it any different? Is it any different? Let's say you're not eating either anything you kill. Is it any different to feed it to your dog or to dropped off at the food bank. If we're talking about ethics of you going out there and killing and then either eating it yourself consuming it or not, does it matter if you if it goes to the dog or go to the food bank. Yeah, Because if it's a question of just replacement, like you're you know, like this wild game is replacing factory farms something or or store bought something. In that case, there is a direct line too. You know this this is still doing some good. Whether it just really depends like to the level of what you're doing it. You know, if you're flopping a backstrap down for your dog, I mean, I got I gotta tell you, you'd have to really give me, you have to really give me a good reason, yeah, that that's not going into your belly or somebody one of your family members or your neighbor or something. We'd have to have a really deep conversation about that. Yeah, but see, I think this is beyond that. I think it's more about, like, is it ethically okay to shoot stuff and not eat it? That's I think that's the core of Yeah, that's the core of this question, and that was the core of the first one too. I mean that, like, if they were eating the crows, that email would have never came in, that message would have never came in. And back to the point of where ethics becomes a discussion of motives and preferences. Is usually a discussion of how or mechanisms and tools used. I think if it if both these questions are a discussion of the ethics of shooting something with no intend of eating it, most of society, even most of the hunting community, is going to say that deserves some some scrutiny, Yeah, some ethical Look, yeah, I think we could probably all just just not agree on that. It's not universe. None of these things are universal. But as if you're a non hunter or even an anti hunter, I it is hard to sit in a room with somebody who doesn't go hunting and say, I shot that and killed it, but I didn't need it. I mean, you're gonna you're gonna be in a fight or an argument pretty quickly, and your rationalization is going to seem whether it's altruistic or whether you think it's right, it's going to seem selfish regardless of how you talk around it. Like there's just no way to get around that. Um coyote. I mean, you know, we had we had the question last time about shooting coyotes and what that means. I mean, it's the same thing because you don't nobody's eating him. Well, you know what my buddy Bendricks wrote in you know Bendricks, he's Kyle eating fool. I've got his recipe, and uh, next time I run across Kyle it shoot him a reply about crows and it's gonna die and I'm gonna eat it. He was saying that back in the day, he felt like some of our indigenous would that was like the meal you served when guests were over wasn't necessarily kyo, but to be dog or a wolf. And some of the northern indigenous people of the North Marin continent, yeah, they eate wolf all the time. Our friend Ryan Callahan was very excited to try to cook and eat one of his friends over there in Idaho shot a wolf recently. It was very excited to get some of that meat and cooking and eat it. I don't think he was able to get it in time, but he was excited to do it and see I would eat it. I'm not. I don't have any problem with it. What like, how do you how did we get to a point where society, like, culturally we just don't think of these things as edible creatures, like we just don't. Um, I speaking of the wolf issue. Um. When Montana opened their wolf season, Steve called me and said, because I told him I was going wolf onund and he said, well, if you guys get one, let's cook it. And this was way back before either of our platforms where the size they are today. And so we hunted for eleven days. We finally shot a wolf fair in Montana and skinned it. Got it already. I'm you know, put this thing in the freezer and Steph and I are going to look like it's very red, very red. Yeah, I mean not supid, better than a black bear? Yeah? Lightly? Yeah, No, I mean obviously not like like like you don't have any store. Um. So I take it to the fish wildlife and parks off us here in Montana. You gotta bring them in and and they way, They checked the teeth, everything else. And I'm talking to the biologist and the biologist says, what are you gonna do with it? Well, we're gonna eat it. And instantly the biologist says, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. Wait a second. Here, this biologist had worked on the introduction team and had been monitoring the health of all these colored wolves. The disease what killed a lot of them, and this biologist said, I would strongly recommend against that. What And I said, We'll just cook it enough to get rid of whatever's there in. The biologist said I would suggest not eating that, which struck me. So about a month later, Steve reaches out to me and says, what did you do with the wolf? I told him what I just did do And I don't think Steve was convinced that we couldn't cook it out of that. So point is, how do we get to that stage? I think our concern for human health sometimes is so hyper sensitive that we'll take zero risk. And as a think about wolves have been on this landscape since forever, oh other people's prior cultures, prior societies didn't have back to your point on as a luxuries didn't have the luxury of Saint Juan. I'm I'm not going to take that risk. They looked at and said, I'm hungry. Yeah, I'm hungry. Right. I took a lot of I took a lot of risk in trying to harvest whatever this animal. I'm going to eat this thing. I so ever, since that, I've struggled with the idea that we didn't eat that wolf at the recommendation of a biologist talk about and that's just a comes back to the modern luxury we we started around, you know were I I saw it around Havelina like always, oh, skunk pig. You know that the cowboys in Texas wouldn't even touch him, they kill him on site, wouldn't even touch him, you know. When I got down there, like, yeah, if you shoot a hobling, just leave it, like I just put in the bushes. And the first time I shot one, I like, why not, just let's try to eat it? Oh they stink? Well yeah, I mean I've shot a lot of stinky old Like the smell of an animal doesn't translate. Always taste the meat. And we cooked the first one shot we cooked up, and I'm like, this is delicious. What are we talking about? And every time that we would go back that same ranch, I'd be excited to shoot one and skin and eat it. And so I just perspective like cultural norms that' say this thing is this way, and and it likely was just the cowboys and the ranch hands there would shoot him and smell them and not want to touch him, and it and it grew from there. It's just like a cultural norm in Texas. Um. I'm you know, I hate that that, you know, with our transplanting of wolves and our fear of you know, disease, that we've probably implanted that in our culture now that it's you know, I know we have because nobody's sitting around going I'd love to eat. Though somebody says I just ate a coyo. You look at them like they're crazy. I'll take that to the next step. My son just shot a bowl out in Wyoming in the absolute core of their chronic wasting disease area. People have asked, that's so you're gonna eat it. Yeah, I'm gonna eat it. You can get it tested first. You're not gonna eat it, really there's been no proven Yeah, but like the like Brian Richards, the like own c w D in our country, might be the most knowledgeable person about it. He says, you hate to be the first one. I'm back to that point of risks. Your risks are sold. Yes, I'm I'm eating it. We've already started, so I'm far down that path already. Would you go like full bone in neck, groast like stuff like that? Obviously, when you're hunting in a c w D endemic area, you're not gonna you gotta leave the bones behind and yeah, yeah, and you're not gonna have a spinal tissue or any of that stuff that you bring with you. So I you know, in some listening are probably saying, well, Randy, why did you let a biology just talk to you out of eating a wolf? But yeah, everybody says you shouldn't eat You should get every animal tested in a c w D area, and if it's positive, you should junk it. Well, a couple of reasons why I won't junk it is where am I gonna junk it? In Montana? If it's infected? If I go dump it somewhere, am I going to spread a hotspot to c w D on the landscape. Someone to say no, because it's not brain tissue landfills where you're supposed to a lot of Yeah, there's get a lot of folks are in the hotspots are like dumpsters where you can write. Yeah, So I'm gonna take my risk. Yeah, what the hell I this elk is? It's if it's got c w D man c w D O tastes pretty damn good. They're gonna come out with the seasoning at CWD on it tastes delicious. All right, let's see what else we got. This one came this, This one came in a bunch of different forms, and I'll just read this one. Um, I must have got fifty of these. So you're out hunting and this came from Tommy Kato. You're so you're out hunting. The first critter that walks by is limping pretty badly. It's obvious that it was either on the losing end of a fight or had survived another hunter's porch shop placement, and the wound has healed. It's not the animal you're after. Whether that would be a big giant buck is Steve Ronella puts it or a dough but you have a tag and can legally hunt it. Should you take that animal understanding that there may be significant meat loss around the old wound, and in an efort to spirit from what would be a slow what could be a slow, painful death. I think the answer is pretty cut and dry. If a deer slash elk runs by in front of you and was just shot and still bleeding, you finished the job. But what about something that has healed but the animal is clearly struggling as a result of the injury. So there's lots to unpack there for sure. But Yanna, you want to tackle Listen first, I can try. Um. I don't think we hunters and people just happened to be out in the field with a weapon need to be playing uh guide out there and interfering. Um, you can just la let nature be do its thing. And I don't think you need to feel bad that there's an animal out there suffering. We don't even know that they actually do suffer. He might just be doing his thing, And I think you can't in that moment probably make that decision, know for sure that if I shoot it now, it's gonna die now versus it dying in a week. You don't know that there's just especially with the wound that's healed over. Um, I did do it once I saw one had been hit on the mule deer dough had been hit on the highway ahead of me, and I was in the middle of the road just like barely could lift up its head, you know, And so we pulled off. And that was back when I thought it was a little bit more of a cowboy than I actually was. I used to always have a pistol kicking around pre kids, you know, just the pistols laying around in the car. And so yeah, we pulled her off into the ditch and uh, you know, shot her and just left her. Um for that kind of reason, right, Um, probably should have. I don't know. We've tried. I've tried to salvage road kill meat and it didn't work out good. Um, So I don't know if there would have been something salvage or not. But yeah, I don't know. I don't feel like it's really it's like not our ethical responsibility to be out there like be like, oh that animals suffering and now I'm gonna, you know, play god and take it out of its misery. You see that a lot though. You surely see that a lot. See that around animals calling defences, You see that a lot around road kill. Yeah, I feel like the hunter maybe feels responsible for for that animal's life, having been directly involved in the taking of some Yeah, I would agree with what Jana said, But then I have to look at when I was presented with that situation. Uh As in New Mexico, You're a prong horn archery prong horn tag in a unit that was considered by most to be a very sought after trophy prong horn unit, And I'm sitting in the blind and incomes this buck. That's it's an average buck. It's not the anywhere near the top end of what people think of when you say the planes of St. Augustine in New Mexico. But it is limping really, really bad. And at first, when I was watching it way out there, I'm thinking about, O coyot will take care of that problem. You know that that that antelope is not going to make it that long. And then the thing comes walking into the waterhole, and over the course of a half hour it takes for that prong horn to get to the water hole, I'm now faced. I'm face to face with this problem. I I can't deny it. It's on camera, it's a film. I'm gonna have to decide what I'm going to do when this prong horn comes into that water hole and he keeps coming, and it keeps coming, and it is laboring hard, and I'll admit to having this dilemma of do I shoot that prong horn or do I not? And for me with archery, now, did you let me ask you a question? Did you know? Did you Were you thinking that it was a hunter induced injury or I couldn't. It was limping severely. I had no idea why I was limping. But it gets to the water hole at twenty yards and you can see that this is this animal is having a tough go of it, and at that point in time, I said, you know what I would. I was just making this decision of do I want to keep hunting and try to shoot one of these huge prong horn this area is noted for, or do I want to shoot this animal? Just because in that close twenty yard face to face engagement, it's it's way less abstract than when you see it out there at five hundred yards and it comes in waters, and I said, you know what, and I shot it, And to this day, I i've personally I feel good about that. Now, what I've not felt good about it? If I let it go away, I suspect it would have went off and I would have not that much different for it. But at that point in time, in that situation, with that intersection of all these things going through my mind, I decided to shoot it and got over there and looked at had a deformed hoof, that's why it was limping. It had a hoof that looked like a big long elf slipper like Santa Elms, where I had never seen that in a problem right before. So he'd figured out how to make a living out there, even limping like that. So why was I so concerned? I guess it's just all of us who hunt. I hope we have some compassion for the animals that did us. And I would say that was one of those instances where my compassion or worry and maybe I'm putting some human traits or characteristics or emotions to what that animal was going through. Back to your point, you honest, maybe it had it had Maybe it had really no worried at all, just life as he yeah, and uh, but as a hunter, I said, well, I think I'm gonna take care of this until I shot it and it went ten yards and into that story. Doesn't make me any you know, any better internally for doing it. I don't know. Make sure it tastes good. I know that, but that really ends up being the motivation behind it, right, is like how it makes you feel? Right, Yeah, that's It's an interesting This is to me an interesting one because if I if you were just a straight predator, you'd be like, oh, easy, yeah, easy, I'll take it done. That's right. If you were hungry, right, you're like, oh, oh my god, that's the preferent one. Yeah, that's the perfect one. It can barely get away, So you'd be thinking about that. But at the same time, yeah, maybe I don't even have to burn a bullet or walk over and inform tackle it, like like, so you have that. But they're the other part. I think why this and this always comes up. This came up a lot in my reading of all these readers. Listener and read your feedback, is like, this is a unique situation for a hunter, someone holding a hunting license, you know, possibly also a game manager or whatever. But as far as like just regular populace, this is a unique experience for a hunter. And and if someone else, if you're out hiking and you see a limping animal and you don't hold a hunting license, what are you going to do? Like there is no responsibility other than keep on hiking. I think it's unique to hunters to some degree. But as someone who's had to make the decision in the last however many years with two of my labs as they got older, I I took it to the vet, and the vet usually lets the pet owner make the decision, and I felt even a more powerful dilemma there. Why because this animal lived in my house, almost part of my family for for years. But I think the rest of society is faced with that decision with the other animals we love. It was very heart wrenching to decide that Merle and Copper had reached the point and now I'm I'm judge and jury. Is Meral really feeling that bad that he he should be put down? I had to make that decision and ask him. Yeah. I still to this day whenever I go out to his kennel and I see his doghouse, there the thought entered my mind, Why well, why was it? Why did I feel that I had to intervene there? Why didn't I just let the natural course of events take place. I think we as society, whether we're hunters or not hunters, we take our societal norms or our societal where he's and we place it into that situation. Yeah, I mean, and also as ya, he was kind of getting that, like, mercy is a virtue that we'd all you don't like to have, you know, And like, so I wish I could have asked merral his thoughts. Maybe he would have said, don't put me down, man, I'm still yeah here, or you're most late man sucks, Yeah, knocked me down. So I do think, uh, as we interact with all of the other living creatures of this society, Uh, we do put ourselves in those situations. Maybe we don't think of it in that context. I do think of it in that in text with my my two dogs that had to make that decision with and it sucks. I've got it. My wife's got a sixteen year old dog now and it's staff and it's part partly blind, and yeah, we're gonna be faced with another decision the same as I felt some of those same emotions when that prong horn was coming into my blink, other than I intended to eat. Yeah, the big difference is that you don't really know it and you didn't eat it. But still the same, Like, that's still the same general quandary you struggle with the same thing. Have you ever had to do that? Yeah, I put a dog and he pops down. Yes, six years ago, is my wife's dog. But yeah, because we had two folks in town, we had a big meeting here at the media to incorporated this. We had two folks in town who one April Fokey found out her dog had cancer and Brodie Henderson found out their dog was was going to be put down within days, just in and I've I've owned dogs, but not in my adult life. And so you see that hit people with you know, in Brodie's case and in April's case, they were both now having to make these decisions like when you know, when are we gonna do this, How are we gonna do it, How are we gonna tell the children, how we're gonna present this in some kind of positive way, because it has to happen. I mean that's your right. I mean, that's that's way heavier than should I shoot this limping antelope that's walking into the water. I've never I've never had I've never had the a wounded animal come across that I felt like I could have shot and didn't. I've never had I've never had that. But I feel I really do feel like I agree with Joanni. I feel like that's well put the way that you What I would tell this gentleman, is is it's not your responsibility. You you have the choice. You bought a hunting lecesnse. You can choose whichever animal you would like like as long as you can effectively take it. So if that's what you choose, there's some virtue in that. Great. But if you don't choose that, don't feel guilty that animals are of natural world is a harsh, damn place, and so you're not making it any easier on anybody by but inserting too much mercy into it. Can I flip that question? Sure? On my platforms, on my website, my podcast, I threw it out the other way. You hit an animal, do you keep hunting? Yeah? Yeah, we had this. I had this discussion with Mark kennying around white Tails yesterday and no is my answer. And there's been a if you throw that question out there, be prepared for about fo Uh. Yeah. I don't necessarily judge anyone by what they do or don't do in that situation, but I think it's a worthwhile discussion. It is, Yeah, it very much is, because there's a lot of different situations that comment. We were talking yesterday about just the value of the knowledge you have to, like there was possibility of being a hunter. You have to have the knowledge to know did I kill this thing or not. You have to be able to track it and read its blood. You have to be able to understand how it would use the terrain and where it might go, and property boundaries and all. It's gonna run on the public land, well, it's rifle season. It's probably gonna get probably gonna get dumped pretty quickly. Um. But I think that just all that to me goes back to if you've done your part by being proficient with your weapon of choice, understanding how to track it and recover an animal properly. That's really probably the first step in making that and answering that question, have you done all those things? First, Alaska for black beards, they make that decision for you. If you hit an animal, you're done. Well most a lot of outfitters do, but a ton of outfitters, right, And so I threw the question out there, should that be a law for all species? Why? Why? Why did black bears? Wouldn't that make Alaska? Wouldn't that make us more ethical? Wouldn't that make like if you knew you had one arrow to shoot and that was it, and that was all you had, you shot it, it was over, and it hit the animal, it was over, wouldn't you be I would hope that, you know. I guess for me, do you do you feel like you should legislate something that you hope people would come to whatever? And it may not be this, but whatever the topic is, should you legislate that or should you let it get that that's the people of their own doing. That's a tough one. Waste is like it should just be a societal norm, right, Yeah? And I have my way of answering that people have seen how I answer that. I give myself one animal, but if I hit it, i'm whether it's a superficial wound. I hunt that animal until I have to leave. If I don't find it, I'm done, or if I when I have to leave, you know, I'm not going to go look for another one. And some people have seen me do that and say, well, that's stupid, And I get that. You know, I'm afforded a luxury that a lot of people maybe aren't. I get the hunt a lot. My freezers seldom empty. Now if my freezer was empty and it's the last weekend of the rifle season and I'd hit one that I couldn't recover and here comes another one that that's a completely different contact of which that person has to analyze and make that decision than some guy like me who gets to hunt Tanna hunt's a year and I'm never going to be without wild game in my freezer. That's a big one. I mean, I think, yeah, if for sure, if you're hungry, you're going to be making decisions like you're you were less concerned with the animal. Like if you're you're way less concerned, you're more concerned with your own personal need to get sustenance, then you are worried about is this right to do? Like? Then that that's the luxury we're talking about here, Like there's just if you can I think remove that would be like I have zero wild meat. I really don't want to go to the store. But then you can still say, hey, you can still go to the store. Don't remove your ethics because you don't have any while meat. You can still go and get it some chicken until you can figure it out. Um, And there's always other seasons of things to go and kill. So I mean you can still argue, hey, man, like that that's the game here. The fact is we don't have to hunt to eat. Yeah, that's the fact. Like we want to and we know it enriches us and does a lot of things for us, but we don't have to. And so I just feel like it like all these things come down to some of these things, not all of them come down to does it change our behavior in a positive way? Like if we want like one waste, is that way? You know? It's like that's a in some ways an ethical um construct we've build into a law. Yeah, or like does this activity make us behave more in a more positive way with the intended purpose while we're after, which is to kill something effectively quickly and get it home and eat it. You know, I mean a lot of our regulations evolved from things that don't necessarily have anything to do with ethics. Yeah, they have to do with societal norms. Yeah, I mean clearly you talked about it on your platform. This is something that came up many, many times on this discussion. So it's something that a lot of people are thinking about and experiencing shortly, because that's you know, and it goes back to hunting with i'll you know a lot of the trends of i'll hunt with the boat during rifle season because it's I like the experience better. We're like, well, I don't know that the deer LEXI experience better. Like that's probably probably something to think about. We got a lot of people right in from Australia. I appreciate you guys down under. This was Alan Curtis. He says, why if hunters are after the quickest possible kill, does the head shots seem like an option that's not even on the table. Coming from Roux shooting in West Australia, I'm assuming kangaroo watching deer shot through the vitals has always been a curious point, with the head shot never never ever taken. What do you think head shots. I think the question starts is our head shots are they actually more ethical? Well, a true head shot is probably the most ethical thing there is, But a nose shot, or a jaw shot or an ear shot it probably if if you ask, the deer would be or the elk or whatever, would probably be the least ethical thing. Uh yeah, and I'm I'm assuming we're all talking firearms of course, but um yeah, I mean it's it's a room for air situation. Yeah, it's a much smaller target, is what it comes down to you. Um, our buddy Parker Hall who works for APHIST Wildlife Services, Um, those guys all shoot when they're out doing like big deer calls. It's always head shots. It's actually always the back of the head because you do have a bigger target there than if you take a profile shot on the head. Um. But again, I mean those guys are pretty much a trained sniper, right And uh, I think for most of us just out in the field, it's like an elk at two or fifty yards. Man, it's like I'm definitely gonna choose the big trash can lid vital zone, the big more stationary target that doesn't know yeah, exactly. Um, Yeah, you have ever hunt moves with any of the Athabaskans in Northern Alaska in Canada, m they had their head shooters. Yeah, they hunt moves with two forty three's and stuff that we would uh, you know, most of us would be like what are you doing with two forty three or seven m M O eight or whatever? Pretty much all head shots. They got a lot of moose meat to show for it. Yeah, and well, and again with that animal doesn't have quite the flight instinct of deer and elk, right, you're probably getting a lot closer more often bigger head. Um doesn't. Moose doesn't move around too much a lot kind of stands there and can browse the same you know, patch of willows for hours sometimes. Yeah, well, it's just the end. It's the animal too. We shoot turkeys in the face all the time. That's kind of the that's kind of the point there. I've always and I argue I feel like when I'm turkey hunting this year, and that like a couple of years ago I experienced like, you know, I really wanted archery hunt for turkeys, and I was in at the camp of all archery hunters for birds, and the wound rate was like one to one. Would one kill one? And I'm thinking we could have had shotguns here and everyone we wounded would have been stone dead and there wouldn't be a giant rage size hole in its breast. Me. Yeah, I'm not archery hunted turkeys. If I had that result to be pretty quick for me to I'm done. I'm done as of now, like I'm just done, you know, I'm done. But and there's other things, like, you know, people think baiting bears is unethical, but when it comes to shooting them, it's a whole lot easier if they're sitting in front of a barrel and selecting for bores rather than Souther's. Yeah, that I'd say bear baiting is probably one where this preference versus ethics things is so easy to distill it as just about always that's a preference, not in ethics in the least. Uh. And I see how many people get themselves wrapped around the act on that issue. And so when you go there and then people say, well, what about baiting for deer? Yeah, quite to say, I don't care if people bait for deer, if that's how they do it, and what they want to do. It's not for me. Uh. I do worry about, you know, the disease bread things that relate to unnatural feeding of deer. But as far as a decision of how you're gonna take that deer, you know, I don't care if you bait him. My own care if you whatever. Yeah, well, yeah, it's personal preference. And you said that like the bare baiting of the deer baiting is is the thing where you're like, oh, fair chase, that doesn't count. And I'm like, if it's if we're just erasing that for a minute and saying, what's what's fair to the death of the animal? It's coming in close, munching on some corn being stationary. I'm sitting there stationary. It's I have a rifle. I'm now shooting it in a in a better scenario than if it was walking across the cornfield and I'm the other side of the cornfield. Like, that's a more ethical way to kill it. Maybe not a fair chase way to hunt it, right, So what are we out there really to do? Play at this? And there's another one I was just reading on here that I was like, man, this is a perfect one. And this came in a lot just around I think, knowing that you were coming on Randy Debt. Guys are like I, I, you know, I go on an outfitted hunt, and I do a lot of public land hunting, and I feel guilty about these outfitted hunts, Like I feel like it's not fair, Chase, I feel like I didn't do any of the work. I feel so guilty about letting an outfitter do a lot of the heavy lifting for me that I'm never gonna do it again. What's your thoughts around these ethics? And like that's a preference, that that's completely it's not even close, it's completely preference. And this came in a lot around like people, I think because we've been we've reinforced this public landowner, We've reinforced like this is the trend and this is the cool thing to do. People are feeling guilty about their way of doing it or specifically in this case, an outfited trip. I don't know who's saying what man to make that people start to feel like that because I feel like it's sorry it happens, but if it happens by us, mosis though man, Like I I am surprised how many because I started our platforms in two thousand and eight, and the y is the same today. It's to promote self guided public land hunting and create advocates for that cost. It's never changed. It had nothing to do with anti public or anti private land hunting or anti outfitting hunting. It's more it's more like, hey, by the way, you can also do this out here, and it's not that hard. There's great opportunities out here. You're paying into it anyway as well. So to that person's question, I struggle to even see that as a dilemma for somebody. I've been on three guided hunts. I had a blast. Were they anymore gratifying or less gratifying when it came to the end result? Well, on one of them, I didn't even fill a tag Arizona strip mealder back in two thousand seven, before I started our platforms. I got so much satisfaction out of that hunt that outfitter busted his ass, and so did I. And he told me, he said, I've never had a client that hunted all ten days of this season, but if you want to, that's what we're gonna do. And we did. Is one of the funnest hunts. Just he's a great guy. Yeah, we're out on public land, the Arizona Strip here, it's not an exclusive place where you include other people. If people are that worried about oh I didn't get out of it, you know someone else did all the work, Well, that's a different issue. I don't think that's an ethics issue. That's just what do I want out of my experience issue? And it's a preference thing. Like some people are very fine going to a trade show, meeting an outfitter, flying across the country hunting with them, getting an animal, bring them me back. That is a fantastic way to experience hunting. Yeah, And it's just different because the beauty of going on an outfitted hunt man is that you're probably gonna get to hunt with somebody that is a real expert in hunting that animal, and like the knowledge you're gonna gain there, you want have to go and hunt the same amount by yourself for five to ten years, or you could just be with that one person for a week and then gain all sorts of knowledge you know about that species and about that hunt and uh, yeah, come home with some stuff to eat. We've talked about that before on this podcast, and I put it that. I put it this way, like I want to hunt. I just want to hunt private land, public land, outfit, a non outfitted friends, family, Like I feel like it's all great. I will develop and have developed personal preferences around what I feel like it's the best version of it. But that should not change anybody else's version of it. No, And if someone wants to judge a person because of either there how they grew up hunting, the fact that just geographically maybe they're in a place where there's not lots of public land, or they enjoy hunting species, were they by law you have to use an outfit or whatever it is. Get over that quick. Judging people based on the I I think that kind of stuff is really damaging for hunting. You know, when I started our platforms, I was caught really off guard when a lot of people in the outfitting industry thought I was going after him. Yeah, it was not that at all. I've never I refer so many people to outfitters who contact me and say, hey, I love that outcome, but I live in Maryland and I don't have the time or resources, and I send them to I have all kinds outfitters I send people to. So I found it curious that people thought that somehow by promoting one type of hunting to make the an awareness that you can go do that. And it was a response. It was my response to seeing people say, oh, I'll never be able to do that. Oh I can't afford that. Are you just promoting an inclusive version of hunting? That's what you're doing. It's not That doesn't mean that something that's exclusive is inherently bad, man. It's so. Yeah, if a lot of people are thinking that or feeling that, I would encourage them to, uh, just go and hunt and don't don't worry about that. And it's certainly not an ethical question. But I would say I didn't get that quite a lot in these in these readings. Um, here's one that that's connected to that. Corey uh Skassic says, I went on my first elk in this past October. It was through an outfitter and a drop camp on public land. Is it unethical of me to hunt the same trailhead next year using the information I've gained. I wouldn't be back. I wouldn't go back to exactly where we went, but I stick to the same area, wondering what your thoughts are. I'm gonna leave that one to be honest, because he's done a lot of helping people. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'd have that happen often. Um oh yeah, where you A couple of years later you glass of somebody run into money trail and you're like, oh, when I showed you this, are we hunting together around here? Um? So is it ethically wrong to do that? I think this falls into the ethical I think this is an ethics question, like what it's it's a intellectual property ethics question, I think, and there's a lot of these in hunting. So because it seems like you're cheating a little bit, I guess for for me, the answered no, I would never do that, But I get that some people. Hey, that's part of what I thought I was paying for when I came hunting with you. I wanted to learn a bunch of stuff. I want to learn how to hunt elk or call elk, or how to what you need, what kind of camp you set up? And you know that if you don't like that, then you should have charged me more. Yeah, I mean with this with this fella here, and I would say I would like, Corey, listen, if you got to ask the question, you're a you know the answer, broly. If you're like, should I do this, that's probably let's probably back it off a little back from where we're out because that means so he's and he's dancing around it here and somebody's like, I wouldn't be all the way back in where we were, Like yeah, yeah, but but you're still using what you learned from that that person to kind of compete with that person, you know. Yeah, And there's really just like on a on an elk hunt out west these days, as good as the hunting is in so many of these states, you just don't need to do that and don't even have to cross. But yeah, use that to use what you learned for that outfit, or to go maybe in the same state, maybe the same unit, but just not the same trailhead man, Like, just there's other places to go. I would say I think that because I mean, sure, like you'll be out there and it'll be kind of non at you a little bit, but when you're walking down the trail and you run into that guy, to that aufhitic guy, you're gonna feel like a real dick, you know, like, sorry, so you had that happen a bunch of times? Yeah? Not. I mean it was always like something I gut it. But you know know the guy would come in and be like, hey, I guess who I ran into, you know, over on the MASA. Wow for me. Again, I don't think it's ethic hoole, but I agree if you've been if you got to ask yourself that question, you probably know that. Yeah. That's like as a father. Now I'm like, listen, if you gotta, can I have that? But I mean, you know, you know, I don't even know this one. I'd be interested to hear you guys thought on this. And I read this, I first thought at that it's not worth it, but then I read it again, I'm like that, Um, this guy's names Tyler Ham, he said. My buddy and I are Yukon resident hunters, and we hunt year round every weekend. We're pretty spoiled. We both agree hunting Grid, we both agreed we hunt grizzlies because we're scared of them. After being charged too many times and having camps be destroyed by them, we are just sick of them. What are your thoughts on that this is from a person that has tried to co exist with grizzlies on a weekly basis and had troubles. Mhm. It's interesting because I think, yeah, I mean here here, I think this goes back to like the British Columbia grizzly situation and maybe even some of our gers, the situations in the Greater Yellowstone. This is somebody who's saying, I'm around these things every day and I'm killing them because I don't want him to eat me. M hm uh oh. In the Yukon, they you know, they have different opportunities slash situations than than what we have. I I've had my share Gridley bear encounters here in Montana. If we had no limits or seasons on them, would I feel comfortable going and shooting them because I'm afraid of them? No? Would I shoot at them because they're messing around in my camp? Maybe? I know it's hard for me to answer that one because of I'm not in that situation. But yeah, I read that too, and I'm like, I'm not sure where this falls, but it's interesting. It certainly is interesting because I'm never, hopefully never gonna be in that situation. But um, I don't know if i'd blame him, I don't. I wouldn't call what you're doing hunting called self defense. But I think he's saying that he's haunting them. He's not saying he shoot them just when there's a charge or they're in their camp. He's developed this like rage where its getting rid of some bears, and maybe that's gonna make life easier on them. But you've always but you've I've I've met many hunters, I would say a lot of hunters that have this like personal disdain for a certain animal. Boy, do I hate X? If I see one trouble like, okay, well that seems odd. So for this person's question, I guess take it to its eventual conclusion. So you're gonna go remove all grizzly bears from the Yukon landscape just to make it safe for you and others. Yeah, that's I mean, that's where it eventually goes to. If if that is the the motive for yeah, I'd say at the turn of the century, we were killing animals that that in mass for for reasons similar to this, but also just for market reasons, and we we shut that off, like that's what our value system and our model conservation kind of like, okay, we got to do better than that. I mean, grizzly bears are serious interruption to places I hunt and what you have to do to keep a clean camp, what you have to do. I hunt differently when I'm in grizzly country. This year we filmed two hunts here in Montana that we were in grizzly bears like crazy. I didn't see them but their tracks, And people said, well, I thought you always get to your glassing spot before the sun comes up. Yeah. I do accept in these places of grizzly country because one time I walked right up on a grizzly bear in the dark. It was no one really hard looking down. What's that track? Well then when it got daylight, I realized what that track was because about three yards up the hill is the grizzly bear walking in front of me and whoa. So does it change how I haunt and how I have to run my camp and everything else? Yeah? It does. Does it create some risk? Yeah? And I always always preface this statement, but someday when I'm a grizzly bear turd, everyone's gonna say, see, that's as you get. My dad said, I never be ship well. But for me, I'm willing to accept those risks on the landscape to know that grizzly bears are there. Yeah, just my personal I could see being in the Yukon and having a little slightly skewed, but I still don't. It's not hunting with that. That's not hunting. It's not. It's a different when you have like a vendetta against animal, it's not. That's not it. Man. The motivation becomes skewed, then you're in trouble. Um. You got to address the the waterfowl one, because this is another one that came in a ton. This is just one from Josh Cook. He says, I was recently hunting geese with friends and ran into this ethics question. The limit here in Colorado was five geeks per day per hunter. We each had about three or four birds on the ground when a huge flock worked in our spread. After all the shooting excitement, we realized we had one. We had shot one bird over our limit. How do you handle this situation? This also came into the form like what how do I make that decision? I've got I can shoot two geese and there's seventeen of them, you know, in our feet up in our decoys, and there's four shooters. What do we do? I think came in a lot of ways. Um. I know we're not all seen as expert water fowlers, but you know this stuff you keep this to run into. Yeah, I think it's pretty simple. You just stick to the ball and if you want over, then you got to call a game warden and tell them. Right. Yeah, I think in that situation, if you did something that happens you admit to, most game boardings will go back further and say, all right, if if you know you're that close to your limit, all right, are you gonna have a discussion among your group that hey, we're just gonna mp our our shotguns into this flock and one guy yeah, and we'll worry about it later. Or are we going to make sure that we don't get in this situation and say, all right, we've got three left in our limit, only one or two guys are going to shoot when the flocks come in. And yeah, when you're and when you're shooting multi species, it gets even tougher, like, oh I can shoot one more of these one more of these three come in and you shoot with a shotgun, it's spray, it's some level. So this thing drops like, oh, that's not right. And I think the other thing you can do is is reported, self report, and always self report. And I'm with you, honest. Usually the most of the wardens, I know, if you explain the situation, they'll say, Hey, I'm gonna take your goose from you. But it's not going to be the end of the world. Yeah. And but if you're out there doing it and you get a reputation and somebody tells the game order, hey, I was hunting across the field from these guys and they are their party hunting and they're shooting too many and he comes over and catches you. Yeah, good luck with that. Speaking of party hunting, party hunting is legal where I grew up in Minnesota. Really yeah, yeah, Wisconsin to where we hunted. Yeah, I think of it would have been. I never thought of when I was coming up. I mean, this probably is not the right thing to say, but my dad, but that's growing up hunting. Like, there's six of us here. If six deer come out, I expect you're gonna dump every one of them. That was the expectation. And if you go to that part of the Midwest, there's not even a second thought given to party hunting. It's just the accepted norm. You say that out here in the West, where no state I know of allows party hunting, Oh my goodness, you better get ready to have yourself lit up. I've been in states where guys like archery hunters are damned because they're selective and the in the rifle season, they're doing deer drives and stuff, and they're just like these assholes over here with their properties where they only shoot a couple of deer a year. They're out there, they're creating sanctuaries where our deer. You know, this deer won't come over on us because we chase them around to shoot them. And that's that's a real like, that's a real pushing pool. And some of these, like rural communities, I've seen it a lot of places, a lot of places. I guess one thing that bothers me and I may be expressed it too much in the last two weeks is how judgmental we as a hunting community do you have become. And I don't know if that's just based on when you when you're the minority. You always feel you're under the microscope, you feel you're under pressure, and so maybe you have a tendency to lash out quicker or for reasons that maybe you shouldn't. But I'll use an example. My son drew a great late season out tag in Wyoming a week before Thanksgiving. We go down there. The first day, we see eighty four bulls out on the winter range and he gets to hunt one week a year because he lives in Oregon, and he's just really busy at that point in his life, building his career. And these are and there there are some really really nice bulls, and he passed on every one of them. He made a half hearted attempt to stock one of them and it was a four yard shot, and he said, no, it's not the shot I want. I think it was just wasn't He just wasn't ready. The amount of people who have called him on our YouTube channel a spoiled rotten Prima Donna bloss silvers boom. But you know, I would have shot the first. And so then the next day he ends up shooting a bowl, a really nice bowl, and at the time he shoots it, we're sitting there and I'm like the two year old black lab man. I'm in my tails wagon, I'm hooting and yelling. And he's a very deliberate person and he takes this very very seriously, and when he shoots the bowl, uh, he always has this feeling of, oh my goodness, I just killed an animal. He's that's just who and how he is where I'm over there hugging him, and I'm so excited because of the you know, this is the culmination and it's a great triple. The way people judge the fact that he wasn't doing cartwheels in the handstands was very interesting and peculiar to me. And then the way that people call him a trophy hunter. Hey, yeah, yeah, and that's fine. I mean that's part of what we do, you know, you take it as part of the territory. But it gets me to the question of is it trophy hunting to say? And I hate the term meat hunter versus trophy To me, that's the dumbest thing we ever talked about. And when people, maybe I'm overly sensitive, when people try to split the hunting community based on some motive of trophy versus some motive of meat. I don't think there's a distinction there in most instances. Um. But it gets me to the point of a lot of these things that people bring up as ethics or ethical dilemmas is part of it. Just we as a community are becoming very judgmental from the from the from a distance of what we see or what we hear, and that's just a natural response to how we feel our pastime is under scrutiny or is it just inherent in human nature that we judge people, And now we have platforms by which we can express those judgments without any context. And I think any behavior someone does, any activity and hunting be prepared for that scrutiny if you are inefficial. Yeah. And I think we put ourselves there, you know, the three of us in this room and a lot of folks that we hang out with put ourselves out there too, you know. And then generally you're doing it, you know, and you are doing it for good reasons, like you want to express ideas, you want to have an exchange, you want you want to put yourself out there too, to express what you feel is important in trying to positively impact folks. I think that's im you know, I know a lot of folks that would be deemed as influencers in our space, and I can think of very few of them that I don't like as people. I just and I get it all the time. The ex person does it this way, and what a you know, what a douche or what I can't believe this person would do this this way. I'm like, I've met that person, hunted with them, and what the funk are you talking about? Like it may come across this way, but you're looking You're coming not from a place of like lifting that hunter up before he does anything, or or he or she does anything. You're you're looking to judge. And that's where I I've done that in the past, and I'm trying to erase that from my vocabulary and my actions, like because I think it's just the problem I have is where we start. Like if you start from you click on a your Instagram account or you click on your social media and you start from like looking for for things to judge, You're always going to find something one and you're always going to be like either angry or upset and what the hell are you doing it for? You know? And it sounds like you need to work on being a better human something. But I think it's it's I don't know if it's everywhere, but I think it's in politics to people get so tribal. But but I guess the point is all of these questions you got, are someone overlaying their perspective with however much or however little context and information on the actions usually of somebody else. Yes, and that it were more comfortable with the kind of the safe defense or the safe rationalis Oh, that's un ethical, and so ethics ethos becomes the spear to point and poke the other person with. Yeah, that's a great I mean, that's the greatest point of all of this is that, like you're not sitting down with yourself and asking yourself, am I ethical? Because that's a pretty easy one. We already addressed it around Like if you're asking a question, probably already know the answer because that's a like that's an intrinsic like, that's the intrinsic way to handle these these questions. I'm asking myself, do I feel good about this? Is it legal? Okay? That's first, and then do I feel good about it? Do I feel right about it? And that's what you should do. Rather than is it legal, it was everybody else doing it? Is everybody else? Because that then it becomes extrinsic, and you're starting to do things for the pleasure of others rather than for the satisfaction of yourself. And that's what that's what worries me a little bit about not not these questions. These questions are fine. People wonder and they like to hear it discussed, but um, and it may later help them have that intrinsic dialogue. But there's a lot of people that are acting on social media to to make others happy and to make it make what they do seem the right way. That's pretty easy to see once you look hard enough. I can't imagine that some of the critics to them as you guys get on your platforms. Also, yeah, there's gotta be times where it's you know, is it ever tiresome to yawning like you're you're close to it? Like, is there ever a point where I feel like mine's pretty healthy? I think yours is probably pretty healthy too. I mean, guys, I wouldn't say the criticisms are kind of far and few between. Really, Yeah, yeah, um, I mean they do come in if it's worthy. If it's a worthy criticism, we address it. But if it's someone that's just you know, blowing hot air man, then just like life's too short. Yeah, I got somebody to comment on my stuff. Get out of Montana. That's a fair criticism. Yeah, your bastard, go back to California. Stuff like that. You're like, oh, wow, okay, well you know what, he's probably been here three years, so he's Yeah, it's clearly bought in. Yeah, it's it's you know, we're humans. We're we're gonna have emotions and feelings based on what our life experiences are, and everyone's going to have a different way of expressing those. Some won't or someone'll do it very articulately, and some are just assholes. And there there are some people a very small percentage, and like you, honest, I'm thankful that of my audience is just there for the positive experience. But there are some people who wake up with the motto of I'm not happy till you're not happy. Yeah, and and then social media just tends to amplify whatever you are. Anyway, if you're a super positive person and like you wake up your life's great. I love my wife, I love my kids, I love my job. You're probably going on Facebook or Instagram going like great photo, dude. Like if you wake up you're like, oh my god, another day. Like I'd like to drag somebody down to my level so I feel a little bit better. Like that's true. But I think in the hunting industry, just because we all care about it so much, it's highly it is. It bothers him. Man when I see I haven't had it. I'm sure I will some day sometime, but I see my friends in the industry getting it and I and it makes me cringe because I think it it starts from a place of judgment, and boy, that's like somebody who's a mass of following or a mass to influence. They've done it for, you know, some reason, and normally it's pretty good reason. Um. However, it twists and turns in its story about Yeah, but I think all hunters um should just be willing to have the conversation, which I think is great because in your platform, Randy, and then media, your podcast and on this one, like, those conversations are had all the time. And well, if we aren't having those conversations ourselves, ah, one day we're gonna wake up and the rest of society has had that conversation for us, and and we aren't gonna like the conclusion they arrive at it. That that's my feeling. It's well, you look at British Columbia, look at the grizzly bear situation, right, you know, like there's arguments on both sides, but somebody didn't get get to Vancouver and say like, hey, we're working on this. They're working on it. Even in my personal and professional life, I've had criticisms along the way that we're really helpful to me and I think maybe a better business person maybe made me a better husband, made me a better father. Hopefully they may not have been what I wanted to hear at the time, but uh, and then I've also we've all had our share of criticisms where it's like, you know what, thanks, but you're clueless. You know, appreciate, appreciate that, but that's not how Yeah, you've my My statement that I've learned from my grandma is you've made mistaken me for someone who gives a shit about your opinion. I like your grandma right now, Well, my grandma had more one liners. I most of them would not be fair for a podcast, but um, let's end on this. I think this was probably a little lighter hearted, probably not even ethics, but we'll go there anyway. This guy named Mark Coleman. He says, when your wife spots a new piece of gear that you didn't really need but you did really want, and you bought that piece of gear in stealth mode, is it unethical to nonchalantly say, oh, I've had that for a while. It was someone who gived lots of marital advice, like Randy. When I read that, I'm like, oh, yeah, you honestly sat in on a few of my podcasts where I've given marital advice. Actually, Steve and I got interviewed by Pat Durkin for the n R, a magazine about marital about marital advice because he'd heard so much of it on our podcast. That one's a pretty easy one. I had never lied to my wife, but I got a lot of good advice. If you guys want of another podcast about we probably should just how to make it so that you're you and your spouse can reach your thirtieth wedding anniversary like mine will be hearing about seven weeks and get to hunt and fish as much as I do. Stop at your limited wallye. There you go. That help. Don't lie my My first, always, my first point of of advice is be more concerned about peace than justice. That's like the default, and lying usually results in neither justice or peace. More lying usually Yeah. Yeah. If you want to see the result of lying u and having to just cover another one, just watch the news every night. Yeah, he needs to be better at hiding. Does hiding new gear counts lying? No? No, if you don't ever just say you can't notnch long and be like, oh that I never I never got that. So I've always been the carrot the reward kind of person that. Uh yeah. So for my wife, she gets the calendar anytime I'm not hunting. So the other eight months out of the year, if my wife wants to go to the big city and do whatever, I'm gonna do it and smile like I'm having the time of my life. And when we built our new house, uh, she wanted new furnishings. And I looked at that and this is the typical hunter angler. I'm looking at that thing, you know, many rifles and optics and stuff. Yeah, and so we came to an agreement, and not everyone's probably gonna do this, is that we would take fifteen percent on the budget that the house cost and she'd get brand new furnishings and we just treated as part of the package. But I didn't wanna if there's a charge on the credit card for a new whatever, I don't you know, I I would expect the same accommodation. That's right, best deal I ever made. I just made a very similar It wasn't a deal in those numbers, but it was we're building a house, right, we had I had this dream. It's like, because my wife always says this ship like she'll say it's my dream table. I'm like, I don't know what's that mean? A dream you've been dreaming of a table? Probably say like, oh, it's a dream curtain. It was like that's her way of saying, I really wanted this is what I want. And so I had this dream similar to have like a third car, like a third garage where I would that I would build into like a butcher shop, and and we had that added onto the build, like that would that would happen? And I started thinking, like I started getting to the point where you know, my wife's moving to a place where I'm I'm gonna be going a lot. I'm gonna run off to go hunting. She wanted some better cabinets, some better flooring, some better this better that I'm like, I just said, honey, I'm gonna be gone a lot. You know this. You've been married to me. You know I'm gonna take that money from the from this third car garage, and I'm going to give it to you to use and whatever way that you want. So that way, when I'm gone during elk season, you can walk on those new floors, and when you're in the care nice kitchen with your half of elks brought out across the top butcher, and you'll be like, see told you. I was trying to establish this benevolence, but I don't know if it will work or not. Well, we we have another deal at our house that my wife and our sister go on some vacations. Uh, and my wife and I go do our thing too. But the deal is when she comes back from a vacation, I never look at the bank statement or the credit card and say a word yeah. And when I come back from a hunting trip or I do something. The words never said about what it costs. Now, if I started getting outside the side the bounds of or she did, I'm sure we'd have a discussion. But when you think about that, you know, when when this person talks about gear, you think about how many things in life really aren't that important over arguing. And maybe this just comes with age or or length of relationship. Uh, those kinds of things really aren't worth arguing over. They're they're often expressions of some other perceived unfairness, and it expresses itself. And you know that new piece of gear you got there, that's that's problematic and we need to talk about that. Well, there's a form of car they get, Yettie. A buddy of mine name is Andy Holland, who's one of the first employees ever Yettie. When he was there, c c O for a long time, UM or CFO, I'm sorry for a long time. He told me one time, he said, Well, we do. My wife and I we have an account that pays all the bills and takes care of all the living, and then each of us has our own account. Each month, we get a certain amount of money that's ours to spend on whatever we want, and neither of us can criticize or even even at some point see Randy's playing out a large some So that's we ready got to talk about business opportunities. But Randy has a large money clip of cash that he uses in the same way. I'm assuming because that's that's that's what Andy told me said. You know, she never touches my little kitty, and I don't touch hers, and it's perfect. Yeah, there's no way too. So this big wide und dollar bills. I don't know why I had it in my pocket today other than I I gotta be careful leaving it on the counter. My wife will grab something. But we each have our own allowance. The household budget gives us each and allowance each month, uh of dollars and anything that you can sell, sell, salvage, otherwise convert to money that's yours. And so I my one friend calls it his sock drawer money. Uh so this is my You've been saving yours for quite a while. Oh yeah, I So when I sell my muskrats or sell my beaver, when I do some trapping, that that out goes, that goes in there. When I recycle some old stuff, that man, I haven't used that for twelve years. Out to sell that when I sell some of my old decoys. I used to collect duct decoys. And every once in a while someone will say, I've heard you have this. Yeah I do. I'll pay you here you go green stuff. So that that's how it's solved. I don't know what my wife's equivalent of that is. It's something good. I don't rummage through her purse looking to see how much soccer o money she has. But so that's that's scow the waters at our house also, and that's also life living living life with an accountant. Yeah, for he knows that cash is the only way to really have money. Yeah, for those who didn't know. In my other life, I am a c p A. So yeah, maybe I approach this differently than Yeah. I feel like three accounts a pocket full of cash is probably more. It's probably more beneficial for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is funny. I I used to use an outside production company instead of having all my own employees. And we're in Galina, Alaska. I tell the production company, do not let your employees show up with credit cards, send them with a Gobba cash. Well, I show up, I got four thousand dollars of cash in my pocket. And because I know what happened out there, well, whether aid lays us, we've got to go to some local person there. And hey, you know our flight now got too Fairbanks got canceled for three days because of the weather. We need a room. Yep, hundred dollars for you, hundred dollars for you, and you and you and you, so five hundred dollars a night to sleep in this really really rough place. And the production crew guys are pulling out their debit cards and credit cards, and this guy's rolling on the ground laughing. Sorry, boys, you can sleep out in the rain and the cold tonight. Uh. Fortunately I had my big water cash and bailed us out of that situation. But cash is a very handy thing to have. Now. It's a generational thing though too, like cash is such a such a foreign object of millennials. It is my camera guys. Everyone on my crew is thirty or younger. They never have more than two dollars with them and probably feel like cash is a weird thing to happen. Yeah, and they told me they're using debit cards. First of all, if you've ever done anything related well, and you wouldn't if you were in a c p A. But we have to go to these classes every year to maintain our certificate. One of them is fraud. Well, the number one compromised vehicle in the world is a debit card. If you're listening to this, do not use a debit card, not a credit card. A credit card is okay, a debit card, don't use it. And so my my guys are always using debit cards, and I almost threatened to fire them. I'm like, if you don't get rid of that debit card, I think I'm gonna have to fire you because I've told you about ten times now. I'm gonna quietly slide mine into the trash camp. I would and ask any banker if they have a debit card. No, they all use credit cards. Why because they see the amount of fraud and compromise. It happens people that have been act And when you think about it, when someone steals gets your compromises your debit card, there's dealing right out of your bank account, whereas if they compromise your credit card, they're stealing from the credit card company. Those companies are they've got people on staff to go and recover that and prevent that. Good luck recovering your bank account. They just got cleaned out. It should be changing live. None of this other ethical stuff we talked about helped you at all. This is it to your point? It is a generational thing. It drives me nuts. We'll stop out of place and uh, I'll ask one of the guys, hey, can you run in and crab that? And they don't have me cash with him. Oh, I handed my credit card. Now, that's fine, and take care of it. But I would feel if I leave the house in the morning, there's three things I look for. I have my phone, do I have my keys? And do I have my cash? Yeah? I'm in, I'm in. I want to be paying something. Roll around. Someone's going to see me out in the dark street here and roll me. Well, Randy carry's guns as well. That's right. There's nothing on this body that's worth dying for. Yeah. I don't leave my house without my guns, my big wads of cash, my jewelry. I should have said the other part. Yeah, if you went out in my car right now, I am heavily. I'm very able to protect myself. Let's put that way, all right. I think we got it all figured out right, Yehnny, we know we've got to come back, look a lot more to do. But thanks for everybody who will endeavored to send us these ponderings and we uh, we appreciate it. Yeah, good questions. Yeah, there are some really good ones in there, and we'll we'll definitely do it again. So don't be shy send them along, even if we don't ask for him, because I know you're not. So thanks for Randy. Thanks for having me. Guys really appreciate it. Welcome to month, Welcome to Bosman. How long you've been here about two coming up on two and a half weeks, But you're old time, you're almost homes Yeah, it's it's honest, your honest, you've been here what five years now? He's an all crushed you could run for political office there long enough. No, I have two weeks and I'm feeling I'm feeling settled. I'm feeling settled. As my wife said, when I look at the mountains, I feel good like I love you, honey. No. Thanks for what you guys produce. Thanks for the content you're doing, and I follow a lot of your stuff. You guys have really good discussions across all your platforms, and I think the value of having platforms in our world media platforms. Maybe I'm wrong in this, but I feel strongly that when you are blessed with the trust audience is placed in you, you need to use it to explore some of these issues, to have these discussions. And if you don't, if you're if you shy away from these discussions, and I don't care if it's politics, ethics, whatever it is, are you really giving back to your audience or are our pastime of hunting to the degree you could, yeah, we're Maybe that's judging too much, but I hope people feel encouraged to to have these discussions. They're never easy. You're gonna get some criticism no matter what you do, but it further stuff. Yeah, I think we're all happily centrist and we're happily pro nuance here. I like that it's uncomfortable, but usually if you go and take uncomfortable things all you come out the other end. Or I'm happy to have anybody that listens, that thinks the way I do about that you know, and the way that you do, and the way that Yanni doesn't. Steve Ornella and everybody else. I mean, I'm happy that there's people out there that share those values, take the time to listen to these types of things. Well, thanks for having me. Guys really appreciate it. Thank you, Randy. We appreciate you. That's it. That's all episode number forty in the books. Thanks to Randy and honest but specifically Randy, because he doesn't work here, Jannest does. And but of those guys, it couldn't be more sound minds to to take on some of those questions. And I really admire and I am a fan of Randy Newberg and what he does for our community. Um, I can't say enough about him and his willingness to come and sit and spend two hours' acting around with us when he's a very busy, manful lot to do. So thanks to Randy for that. Thanks to all of you for submitting your questions. We got way more than I ever thought possible. So, UM, if we didn't get to yours and didn't get your response to on on Instagram, thank you, thank you for sending these questions in and we'll probably do this again. UM, so tell your friends if you don't mind UM about this one. What else what else, what else? Well, you could also go to the Mediator dot com. You could definitely do that. You can read some stories that are there and things of that nature, and then you can subscribe to the newsletter that's there. You could visit the store and there's some Hunting Collective merge in the store, so then you could he's supporting a nice pro nuance anti bullshit t shirt. Definitely do that. Um Or you could just get a wonderful hoodie with the Hunting Collective podcast logo on the front. It's pretty cool, it's gray, it's nice. I like it. Um There's other things you can do. There's Mediator apparel, there's wine to Hunt apparel. There's all kinds of stuff in there that you can go and do at the Meteor dot com. If there's anything else, I'm forgetting. I'll probably get to it next time for episode forty one, but until then, thank you, thank you, thank you. Bye.