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The Hunting Collective
Ep. 18: Cole Kramer
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2h22m
On this episode I'm joined by Cole Kramer out of Kodiak, Alaska, one of the top guides in mountain hunting today. Cole, a small town Kansas kid, was inspired by his Aunt and Uncle to venture North after high school and has since made a living guiding hunters in Alaska's harshest conditions.
Cole and I first met a few years back when I hadn't yet been on what I would call a true adventure hunt--think backcountry drop camps in sub-zero temps or hiking to 18,000 feet of elevation to kill a sheep. It's through those experiences that I was able to challenge myself, and watch Cole overcome hunting's roughest conditions with ease. I've also gotten to know him as a friend. On this episode Cole joined me at the Total Archery Challenge in Terry Peak, South Dakota for a weekend of shooting and a great conversation. We talked about how he came to be guide, how adventures sharpen the willing hunter, respecting bears, bear on bear violence, and our trip to Nepal chasing blue sheep. This is one of my favorite podcasts to date. Enjoy.
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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, and welcome to The Hunting Collective, episode number eighteen. I've been O'Brien today. I am joined by Col Kramer, Kodiak Alaska bear guide, mountain hunter and venturing badass. Cole is a great friend of mine, one of my favorite people on the planet Earth, someone I've traveled the far reaches of the world with, and I value him in his opinion among almost all others. This conversation goes into taxidermy, trophies, value systems, guiding bears, such a great bunch of great bear stories that you won't hear anywhere else, a guy like Cole, and our story of our adventure in Paul last year. So hopefully you enjoy all those things I certainly did. It's longer than our normal podcast. It could have been way longer than it actually is. I think it's one of our best. It'll stand up for a long time. This is episode number eighteen of The Hunting collect Hey, Cole, Hey Ben, nobody doing good. Thanks for having me on the podcast. Man, Oh well, it's my pleasure. I always like to start these conversations out, like for you to describe more. And it was certainly we're in interesting places for you to describe where we are, what we're doing. Well, folks, for those of you at home right now thinking about us, just put yourself in a nice relaxing moment and just think that you're back on a bus that you went to school and but yet it's a much nicer bus that has nice couches does and we're looking outside in the rain and fog at the total archery challenge up here at is it Terry Peak? It is Terry Peak in South Dakota. Terry Peak, South Dakota. Yeah, it is raining. It's been raining all day, which is not It turns out that doesn't work well for an outdoor archery shoot. No, when you can barely make out the targets, it's difficult. But I tell you what, there's a lot of hardcore people here just hitting the course up like nothing's going on. So just throwing on there, throwing on their rain gear doing it. Was it. We're just drinking hot cocoa and a bus. We are drinking hot coco and I do have my shoes off cooler black sin. Yeah. Well, now we're in the not just any bus, the public lands bus. That's right, Sam soholds awesome bus Yeah, he's been kind enough to let me use this as a studio for today. It's very nice. It's um, how would you describe the interior. It's rustic but also modern. Yeah, it's a modern rustic m Yeah, it's really nice. He's done what did you say, It took him about two months, two solid months of two months. Yeah, painted the outside and fabbed up well, framed up a hole four bunks back there, and the whole queen looked like maybe even a queen size bed in the back. Yeah. I think he actually rents out his slots here. I mean, I mean it's pretty expensive, so if anybody, if anybody wants to it's like an Airbnb on wheels. He'll drive to you wherever you are. That's actually not a bad idea for a business. No, no, it's not. Actually I have to let him know. Yeah, maybe he'll come in and join us. Um, he's outside selling T shirts right now for his public Lands tease. So you've got a lot of public land stuff going on, very trendy. He's got a really cool uh what is that a Waltin framed of Walt Waltin on the front of the bus or on the side of the bus and that his T shirts and whatnot in there, and a lot of folks coming in. Already, river running river runs through it. With all the rain and hail we've had here, it's quite interesting outside. Right at the moment, it was true of mud. Listen, anybody listening that thinks that my mobile airbnb idea is good, let me know, because I'd like to get I'd like to go into business, like to Colleck some royalties we like. You're like, hey man, I'm staying in Devon for the weekend. Like, I'll drive to you. You can stay at my bus. Maybe Sam and I can get in that. Anyhow, it's been a fun, fun weekend. We've shot many a foam target at various distances. I feel like we're supporting the arrow companies after this trip. Yeah, we are. And I'm I showed up here with my my favorite arrows. Ah. So listen, h you may you know you listen to this podcast, you may think a lot of sharp, sharp fellow. You know what a character sharp, thoughtful? You know it really has it all together. He knows this stuff. He's got a podcast. He's got a podcast. Not many people have podcasts. He must be special. But I showed up. So I will say Archery Country in Austin, Texas is one of my favorite places to be let alone, purchase archery paraphernalia from. They're awesome people, and I get my I went there, oh safe Sunday to get arrows. They know what airrors I shoot, so I got their air as they cut them for me inserts in, gave them to me. I didn't think much about it, you know. And I got here, uh, and they're the colors orange. Would you like him? They look great? Autumn orange is the color. And I got here and a few people either jokingly or seriously. I don't think I could pick up the sarcasm. We're like, oh, aluminum arrows, full fulluminum arrows. Yeah, aluminums. That's crazy. You're shooting old school. I was like, I thought about it, like did I get the wrong arrows? Did they give me the wrong arrows? So I took one of my autom orange arrows out of the quiver and looked at it and I said, oh, ship says aluminum orange. Keep in mind this has gone for several hours now. Yeah, at this point, and I'm telling everybody in our shooting group, I'm telling Sam and Cole, I got these aluminum arrows will probably fly different, you know there because it says a loom. I'm right on the shaft. I don't know how we got our wires crossed, and they gave me a loominum arrows. I wouldn't even think an art shop would even sell alumin of arrows anymore, with carbon and the other materials one might use for an arrow. And then not twenty minutes later, I looked down at my thing and Sam says, what kind of eras are they? And I said, well, there Eastern FM Jay's ship. It says automari. They are not allumin of arrows. And I'm an idiot, but they shot great, though they did shoot shoot great if you like gut shots and leg shots and hitting rocks. Yeah, hitting rocks. Well, you showed up prepared. It's not the arrow's fault. Let's let's get that. No, it's the Indians fault. It's the that's for sure. No, I will say, like when you show up to these things. I felt more prepared coming into this this weekend than I did I have for a lot of things that showing up with a bow. But I just whether it was string stretched from a hundred it's a new bow. I probably shot through it. Sat rode around in the truck for a day while we were coming back in a hundred and five degrees string stretch. Whatever act showed up here, the people's all twisted up. I was shooting about two ft left six inches low. Had to put on a new tape, and that took me a whole day of being terrible. You gotta dialed in the I gotta dialed in. At last eight targets of yesterday, I felt like I was finally getting there out of the fifty targets that we've shot. So anyway, just peek behind the curtain, as it were, to give you a little insight on how stupid I am at certain times. Cole knows all about about that. You know, I've enjoyed our times together, been and I have noticed a few things about you. But kind of like a little brother or something, I feel like, you know, it's okay. Sometimes we all have brain parts or whatever it is you call your personal Yeah, are you concerned about I'm totally used to it by now, so it doesn't really difect me. Seek help or I try to find some kind of like counseling or maybe read a book. There's probably some books that you could, yes, how not to not to be a dumbass, how not to be so forgetful. Yeah, it forgets off a lot. There's a lot going on, man, a whole lot going on. Well, that happens, It definitely happens. Listen, UM, tell people what you do for a living. Well, I have lived up in Kodiak, Alaska, I guess since two thousand and two after I graduated high school, and I am a hunting guide. UM run a small operation up there, and then still work for a few other outfitters in Alaska and some other parts some other parts of the world, and kind of just I just, you know, figured at some point when I take this career seriously, I gotta just hit it hard and I'm gonna pay the bills. So pretty much year round hunting guide around bears, Kodiak brown bears, yep, Kodiak brown bears, Sitka blacktailed deer, mountain goats, uh do a little bit of doll sheep up on the mainland, brown bears on the mainland as well on the peninsula. So um, and what ends up happening, you know, you know, punting with some of these guys multiple times clients, and they kind of want to continue the hunting with you, and so I'll help line up trips for them to kind of, you know, go wherever they their hearts desire. Most of my trips are all mountain trips. So Mexico, right, we do some trips, Yep, you gotta go with Dustin Rod down there to uh Mexico in the Baja on some desert sheep and then um, you know, uh, guys want to go to Azerbaijan or Nepal or places like that or um. Kind of try to help guys get lined up, but going wherever they want to go. Most of us they here that I've been there and they kind of want to And and you meet these other outfitters at these outdoor conventions and whatnot, and you spark up relationships and so you kinda you don't go different places. So it's yeah, it's um, it's been a pretty fun fun ride. Not ready, not ready to get off it yet, So I don't think you will. What why Codiac, Well, I have, um my aunt lives there. M My aunt and uncle moved up there from uh they were in the Coastguard. They were also from Kansas where I originally grew up by Pratt, Kansas, and my uncle was a station there. He was a H sixty pilot for that's the helicopters, like like a black Hawk for the Coastguard, and um, I went up there when I was eleven and just loved it. They invited me up there, um and went back up a few other times after that. I just absolutely loved it and thought to myself, you know, when I was probably thirteen or fourteen, I'm definitely gonna move there after high school. And my uncle was a huge influence on my life. Um, and so he invited me to come up there after high school and so yeah, definitely gonna do it, And so moved up week after high school. Unfortunately, he passed away an airplane crash, so shoot, when I guess it was about nine years ago potentially, I guess. So that was really bumm deal. But my aunt is still up there, um, so I get to see her quite often. So I was really blessed to have someone there, right. I wasn't totally blind on just going up to Alaska. I had a very very good stepping stone and very supportive family members there, So that was that was great. Shout out to Pratt Kansas. What's the population of prat Kansas? Pratt Kansas, I think is somewhere around people than I thought. Yeah, my best friends that there are are back there and great people, great town. Enjoy going back there each each year. And for sure, yeah, I mean I think guiding. When I think of guiding, you don't think of uh, you know, you think of a career in that industry. But you kind of flipped it over a little bit too. You know, have a name and have a reputation in the hunting industry, you know, all over with brands, with media, with all the things you've done. Is that was that intentional or did you just always stumbling all that? You know, it's kind of It's one I think it has to do with your past, whatever you're in and wanting to better your field that you're in. And for me, um, you know, I I just loved always talking about gear and exploring the types of gear that we're out there. You know, we had the old school Cabello stuff and then you know then I had a short stint like wearing Filson and things of that nature, like on my on my hunts and whatnot. But then then I thought, you know, this mountaineering stuff, that's that's the way to go. These mountaineer guys have got it figured out, you know. And so then I kind of got to the point where I got, you know, frustrated with UM trying to buy this this equipment with companies that did not support my industry as a hunter, and I thought, well, there's really no no reason for me to be supporting these types of people. And so that's when I started, uh, you know, going towards Sitka Gear and UM. It just kind of morphed into just trying to help a company. And they had plenty of great guys also with them, helping and other you know, athletes or whatnot. But from my point of view of what I was personally doing and seeing things either fail or what we're doing great, I just always felt the urge to call them and just say hey, this is great, or you know, this isn't doing so good, but trying to focus on constructive criticism. And that's kind of the way I've always been with the companies that I have, you know, in lined myself with these are these are this is gear? Or or things that I truly use, and not just because someone says, here, we'll give you some stuff for free because you're a guide or something. This is. These are things that I would much rather, um, turn down things for free and go buy something that I really want to use, rather than just taking free things. Um. It's not how I operate. Kodiak is not a place that would abide by that kind of no no. I I I remember a few times, um, getting on my satellite phone. I remember I had a set of rain gear that blew out a zipper on my leg. And you know, like on day five of a ten day hunting up in snow and rain, watching these rams, sitting over top of these rams with an archery hunter, and I got on my statphone and just you know, called the office and said, hey, guys, just letting you know, UM zipper blew out. Um. And they said, oh, so sorry, so sorry. You know, we'll we'll get that replaced. You know, no problem, we'll sing. I said, I know, but that's five days out and twenty miles away from me getting out of this place. You have to think about what people are going through and and not you know, so me I wasn't trying to call and yell at people. It was just like, please understand what people are going through wearing your your gear. I don't care if it's gear or a gun scope, whatever it is. As a company, you have to look at the most extreme end of things. And I got sick and tired of listening to people say, well, you're a guide. It's not gonna last for you. You You know, it's more mainly men for these consumers, you know, and this and that, well that's not a very good you know, and that that that wasn't coming from some of these the companies. Just I would hear that every once in a while from these these companies when I would say, uh, you know, these boots didn't really last well, but yeah, but you warm on this many hunts and then you know, and it's like right, and it's like, well, guys, you know, no matter what it is, right, I mean you That's the way I feel. And and luckily the companies that I'm in line with right now, I'm so blessed because that is what they base their things. If if I can wear it, or if the other guys that I'm associated with with these companies can wear it um or or use it, and we try to find all the faults so it doesn't happen to you. Does it still happen? It does, But I did. I guess getting back to I just really felt um getting back to what you were asking, did I see it? No, it just kind of morphed into that wanting to always help. I don't care about you know, um, as bad as it sounds, I don't really care about you know, how many likes or followers you're you get on all this social media because I just feel like, if I can help my hunters be more prepared, that's what I really care about. Because at the end of the day, I've been trying for years to get you to care more about social media. You just won't do it. No, It's just it's one of those things at the end of the day, you know, if I if I can help my hunters be prepared and when they show up, you know, because it's really hard sometimes for me to you know, get this person and you feel bad as a guide, you know, to get this person to spend all this extra money, whether we're on clothing, a gun, optics, whatever, it may be a pack but it's like, listen, I want you to be the most comfortable person that you can possibly be out here on the mountain, because this ten days could be the most miserable time of your entire life. And so if you go by our structure of gear and whatnot, I mean, it's my fault. If I tell you to get some in it and it fails on you on the hunt, well that's my fault. But I don't want to have you show up something that you think will work, but yet I know it won't work, And so I at least have to speak my piece. These people try to getting prepared and and you know, just be comfortable on the hunt. You know, it's like showing up in good shape. I take that very very seriously, physical conditioning and whatnot. I want people to be happy and and uh and and comfortable on these hunts. And so that's where it's all kind of That's what I really feel like is the most important in my aspect is preparing people and getting them ready for their hunts, and in these companies understanding on what these types of what these people can get into potentially. Well, yeah, because you wouldn't make you want to make gear for the harshest climates, right, you want to be a company you should want to. You shouldn't want to. I mean, yeah, you want to make a profit, but you should aspire to your world that's aspired to Kodiak and make make products that can stand up to that place. Because if we can stand up to Kodiak, do pretty good anywhere. That there's the reason why the Navy Seals have a training base there, and that's where you know they're testing out all their mountain gear, getting it lined out. And that's how I met John Barklow. You know, when I moved in two thousand two. I think Barklow moved there as well around two thousand two, and I met him. I was at a um at a volunteer search and rescue. My dad's a firefighter, and I always want to be a firefighter. But when the outfits of Workwood said, you know, if you really want to make a difference and like be more you know, helpful in the mountains, you maybe want to look at this mountain rescue team. And so I just joined a volunteer mountain rescue team with a bunch of the locals and and Barklow came in one time. I didn't know him. A buddy came in to explain gear to us, explain clothing and how it should be worn, because a lot of us, yeah, we're in a mountain rescue team, but we're just there as volunteers trying to help. We don't really know what we're doing. Okay, we're there to learn and to help people. And so Barklow is there and and gave a talk. I mean it just was ingrained in my head. It was like doors being like, wow, that makes sense. Okay, that makes sense because I was back in the day. When I say back to day, it makes it sound old, but like realistically, unless you were really paying attention to mountaineering stuff and following that kind of stuff. Remember, social media wasn't really like all these chat rooms and whatnot. Maybe they had, maybe they went on, but I didn't. I didn't look at any of that stuff. I didn't read any of that stuff. I would just go into these gear shops and think to myself, Oh, maybe this would work, maybe that would work, and we'd all come up with their own little systems or like you see systems at Cabela's that's on the same page. So I think you'd buy that whole set thinking about what was offered at Cabela's ten years ago. Think about what was offered at all ten years ago. How old is Sitka? Yeah, it's yeah, they were, It's about about them. They were just just becoming Yeah it's a leaven reality eleven years yeah, somewhere there. So they were a tiny outfit then just getting just getting going. And imagine you know what spawned out of that idea. UM is a move in in the hunting industry to go further but be comfortable as you're doing it, UM. And that's been it's been spurred on by companies like six your gear UM for for hunts to be more hardcore and to be you know, guided sometimes, but also just hey, this is the gear built for somebody that's gonna adventure. Sure, well, you just never know. I was just talking with a guy UM over there bay Portral it just a bit ago, you know, and he's gonna come up to go um blacktail hunting UM on Kodiak and and it was more and I was telling him about our experience and whatnot, and I said, you know, when you show up, just be prepared, you know. And and a lot of guys are you know, feel very comfortable about camping and this and that the other. But it's like you really don't understand until you're a hundred miles from anywhere and you're blowing eighty and it's snowing sideways in your camp is caving in on you, and things are getting real, like very very real, and so you really can't stress enough about being prepared with with the right gear and physically, mentally everything being prepared. And so we are very very blessed at this point in time. All everyone out there listening is we are all so blessed right now with with there are I mean, obviously I wear six Gear, that is what I've totally believe in, but there are other great companies out there right now that are making great gear, and that's what happens with companies that do that. Yet he is a great example of the same thing. You set the bar and then people are gonna come and chase that bar and try to jump it. And I think it's only good for hunters, that's really good for consumers. It's great because it keeps pushing people, you know, it keeps pushing um the other guys. And you know, when guys show up to my camp and I'm looking at what they're wearing, and I you know, I go over and I'm touching it or you don't know, and I ask questions and and we all have our opinions. But as a guide, UM, I get blessed with seen all the wonderful things that happened to clothing. And people can give their spiels all they want, but I get to see firsthand what actually happens to other guys clothing. And it could be the same brand I'm wearing, or it could be some other brand, and um, but I get to see the wear and tear. I don't care if it's packs, rain gear, whatever it is. Um. You know. Bottom line with me is I can guarantee you that I do not like being cold and wet. And I live on Kodiak Island and guide in the cheegatch and guide wherever shit happens around the world. I don't like being cold and wet, and I honestly can't remember the last time that I was miserable out in the environment, you know. Um. And but with that said, you have to understand how to where that. I mean, It's like me my MacBook Pro. I mean, I buy it and I'm thinking, oh sweet, look at all this cool stuff you can do. And well, I know how to turn it on, write some emails, so with some photos and and that's really all I really know how to do to do with it. But you know, when a guy really knows what they're doing with their gear or with that piece of equipment, it goes so much further. And um, I'm a huge, huge, huge, you know, advocate of just like I'm always watching my clients. I'm always paying attention to them while they're hiking, and I'm watching them get get hot. And a huge issue with people is they're wearing their rain gear and they're wearing too much clothing underneath or the wrong type of clothing underneath, and they sweat. Then before you know what, they're saying, all this ranger sucks. Man. I got wet, Well, it was raining and it's horrible and I got really cold, and it's like, well did you strip down? Did you? Were you wearing all your layers where? You know, all these people keep their jackets zipped all the way up. You know, it's a vicious cycle when you get uh, sweaty hot, and then all of a sudden, now you get cold, and but they don't want to unzip and let breathe. You know, well, yeah, vents. I mean all these top top flight rain gear all has vents in it. And that's right, that's right, and but it's it is. It is something where I have to almost argue with people sometimes like hey, you need to take that off. No, I'm good, Nope, you need to take it off, trust me. And it's like I have to. I almost had to treat some of my hunters like children sometimes because they're not used to. When I came up to Kodiak, I think I had it all though. I was square on, like I had the right you know, sick of puffy, all the down stuff I needed to have, had the right synthetics, right rain gear, but I don't have the right gloves. Remember we were skinning that deer and I'm like, my gloves. I had three pairs of gloves in my pack and they were all soaked and they were all screwed. Rightever, They're like, look at these gloves, My hands are hot. Did you want to pair of these? I got two on. Oh my god, I have three pairs of gloves and I ended up wearing my rubber gloves that I brought for taking rafts in and out of ever whatever on the way out because my hands are so cold. Right, So it's those little things, you know, I think I was probably there, But this is that you forget the right gloves or you don't think about what gloves you might have to have in those situations. Yeah, a lot, a lot of people aren't used to that, and and I do. I remember talking to John Barklow when he was UM came in and chatted with us about gear and I and we got two gloves and he said, man, gloves are the weakest point and in all gear. And I remember I remember saying something of that nature, saying, everyone is different. Everyone's circulation is different, you know, with their hands. Like me, I were mittens a lot because on the sides of my fingers if I have UM tighter fitting fingered gloves on, UM, I my circulation gets cut off and my hands get really cold. And the biggest misconception, I think, like when people are wearing mittens, even they'll wear a little liner glove on underneath it in their hands are like, oh man, I its are still cold. You know. It's like we'll take those off, you know, like I I do better with it, just my you know, being able to touch my own skin underneath the mitten and instead of having um, all these extra tight gloves on. The worst thing you can do is have tight gloves on. I feel and um, you know, I'll carry some handwarmers occasionally, and it's funny they'll sit in my bag forever, and then finally one day, like while I'm glassing for bears, I'll say, okay, maybe I'll break out those handworms. And it's always like, gosh, why didn't I freaking do that ten days ago? These are nice, but but gloves are a tough one, you know, they really really are. Everyone's circulation is different, but bottom line is you need to have like I wear a lot of times. I'll have a thin pair of leather gloves just for hiking in you know, I trip and stumble every every once I'm breaking branches out of the trail, So I like to have a light, um, a light set of leather gloves on, UM, so no thorns or anything can get through UM. And I'm not you know, tearing up the material of like a you know, some soft shell glove want breaking branches or using my machette or whatever. But um, you know, you need to have you need to think, Okay, what situations, you know, And maybe it's three pairs of gloves. You have a light a light pair, you know, maybe an insulating pair, and then a waterproof pair. And I'm really big advocate of like on these on these UM rain gloves and the waterproof gloves. They need to be a glove that you can take a liner out to dry. That's the only way you'll ever be able to dry them out in a in a spike camp scenario, pull the liner out. And a lot of times if they're wet, I'll put them in my little side pockets of my pants, you know, and I'll sleep with them in my in my side pockets of my pants. That's the only way you can dry them out. If you don't have a heating element in your tent of any sort. See, just wear your clothes, you know. And that was the other thing, you know, learning that from John years ago and um and just some of the guides I knew, you know, if you got wet in your gear, because no matter what you have, you're gonna sweat or whatever may happen. Right, I mean, how you could hit a hit a branch and it and it rips something on your pants or something like that, a rock or something, and and you're gonna get wet occasionally or fall in the river. That's the biggest thing that I think about when I have an extra set, an extra set of close at camp. I don't just change into those clothes when I get stinky, I change into those clothes. That's a backup pair for if I fall in the river and get wet or or something like that. I would fall in a creek or something like that, or my hunter get is hypothermic or whatever happened and maybe he falls on river. So it's a backup for that. But if you need to dry out, the only way you're gonna do that in a spike camp scenario is climb in your sleeping bag and dry out, you know, and you gotta wear it and it will seem a little bit uncomfortable at first, but it heats up. And that's that's mainly. With a synthetic bag, you can do that. I you know, can you get away with with with that dry down? Yeah, but it doesn't it won't handle the same way as a sythetic moisture. Well that the down, the down goes goes limp and over time, I don't care what what you have when it talks about this fantastic, amazing dry down stuff. I personally it wears out over time when you're when you are taking it out and and compressing, and you're taking it out, compressing out, compressing, you do that a billion times. Well it's you end up kind of wearing it out. But regardless um regards, it's just all this stuff's fascinating me. And I know we're in a time where it's very fascinating for a lot of people, you know, to learn about all this stuff. We're very very fortunate we are. We're fortunate to be in a bus or where both of us are. It's raining and poor. I mean it's it's it's miserable outside. Dude, it's just a mud puddle. Nobody is outside. This has been the hangout bus. It's funny. There'll be fiber you know, eight people hanging out in the bus and here we are podcasting and everyone has to stand outside while we're in there. All yeah, we're dicks. They're like, you have hot coke code. It's so warm with the bus calling. I've both taken naps in the bus today as well, it's very nice. Thank you saying for the bus. Very nice. I would say, like, I think you and I have a couple of pretty good stories to tell. I feel, ah, they might if we try to combine them both into one podcast, it might. This might end up be in three hours. I don't call it. What was it about hunting? We were hunting? Yeah, I don't really recall our adventures. Well, I'll walk you through them. Oh, I remember, Oh, I remember I was there. I don't know, I think, Um, I don't know, man. I remember being a different person, probably before I started working at YETI maybe before I started working at Peterson Sunning, and just being a regular hunter and thinking thinking about adventures, adventure type hunting or mountain hunting or things of that nature, has this law far off reality, And then also thinking at the time the gear needed to do that was silly. You know, nobody could ever afford it. Um, nobody would ever aspire to spend that much on the hunt and the gear, and what would you really get? Why wouldn't you just you know, stay home and shoot a white tail. I remember that being in my mind for a long time, and I don't know that I ever had the aspiration. I never read um hunting magazines or watched TV with some aspiration to go to the Yukon with Jim Shock, can shoot a moose or anything like that. I just always felt pretty happy at home and pretty normal, not not want to do those things. But as I've been lucky enough to do some of that stuff, it's changed me in a way that I don't know that i'll ever I'll ever be able to put my finger on or ever be able to explain. And I think you know, in my experience with you is like the consistent exposure to those strug is man, it makes you appreciate every little opportunity to have in life, whether it's go out to the bar with your buddies or go to a trade show, or take a shower, take a shower, clean socks. Yeah, I will remember that shower we took in Catman do for the rest of my not together shower And I mean it was Conserva water. You know, we're environmentalists, but yeah, those types of things when you when you come off with those adventures, and I don't I've tried to probably over time, explain what it feels like in the perspective it gives you and like, what, um, what the meaning is? And and I must. I was listening to Rogan's podcast with Dennis McKenna this morning. I was getting ready and they were talking about how psychedelics kind of give you this weird view of reality because you're in psychedelics, you start to see things in different lights. So Joe was talking about driving down a paved road and seeing thinking about this road normally, like it's a road, and I don't have to think about that anymore. It's a road, it's a paved road. I drive down it every day. I'm gonna shut my mind off and I don't have to think about what I'm actually doing because I'm driving on the road. Everybody does it, there's no need to examine it. But then when you know he expands his minds via psychedelics, he's thinking, damn, what am I doing this? We've chosen to pave over this area and roll over it and one ton machine like we're weird. Humans are weird. And I feel probably in a less aggressive way than the taking mushrooms, but coming back from these adventure hunts, man, I feel almost like that, like you're you're exposed to the harshness of the world, and then all the niceties of the world seem odd like, it seems like this, this thing that is normal to us is not normal to the world. Paved roads are not what nature and the natural world provided. We've done that the smooth over the rough points in our existence, and I remember, and I remember just thinking about that. Even in this morning, I was getting a share of thinking about hunting. Being exposed to true adventure hunting like you've done. Yeah, I think it changes you in ways that you're not really you never really know until maybe you're done with it retired. Yeah, it's it's definitely for me, That's what I believe. Obviously, when people UM call me and they want to book a hunt, you know, UM, they're they're they're you know, part of their goal and maybe the main part of their goal was to come on a brown bear hunt and get their bear um or their dear or you know, you want to go get your elk or wherever it. Maybe that's fine, But with me, UM, it has morphed into and I think this happened after spending so much time in the field and experiencing like what you mentioned, how you feel afterwards that I absolutely truly enjoy giving that feeling to people. Not to be um confused with a guide that loves breaking people and loves putting them to through misery. That is not absolutely not what I have ever enjoyed doing. Where you hear many guides who you hear about these stories, these young guides or whatever that just want to break their hunters. No, um, my, my absolute joy is doing exactly what you you said, is taking people, exposing them to um the elements and showing them that you can survive. We are okay, um, We're able to get through this and to do it in a fairly you know, easy manner once you do actually know how to do it. It's just I feel like that expands your mind. Even though the example you gave of being in a sleeping bag and being uncomfortable, you know, like your your it range your wet. First thing you want to do a strip off your clothes and getting sleem be comfortable. But if the quickest way to be warm the next day is to stay wet and getting your sleeping bag, then that's what you have to do. That's an expansion of what your your willingness to be miserable and you're It's an expansion of your mindset right as a human. You have to think when you're going to be out there. You always have to think ahead. I don't care what. I don't care what's It starts on the stage before you get on the airplane, when you hand them your backpack. Where is your rain gear? Is it in the bottom or is it on top? Maybe you have it on, maybe it don't, but always have it close by. It starts at the very very beginning um to every single point of your day of anything you do out there, you have to think ahead. Even if it's miserable, you have to go outside and do it. Do I really want to drop down a thousand feet to get water right now? No? But if I wake up at five am and want, you know, and want to stay up on the ridge line, you go look at these rams. I don't want to. I mean I want to get up and have coffee and have my oatmeal. I better go down and get the water right now, otherwise it's gonna be miserable in the morning or whatever. You know, just every aspect you know, tying your tent down appropriately. If you don't do it now, I call it the Chinese fire drill, no offense. But uh, in the middle of the night you wake up your tents flapping. It's something's broke. You gotta fix it. I mean, you have every single aspect. I micromanage everything out there to a t because I know what can happen over time, and you have to think about it. Um, well, how much time does that take to get normal? Because I found like and hunting with you or you know, doing all these types of hunts. As you get out there, I feel like the normal world, the real world that I live in, the day to day life dolls me up. Like about was a knife, I'd be rusty and doll after about a month. And then I get out there and it usually takes me a day or two to sharpen. And then by the time I'm done, I'm sharp as fuck. And then by and I go back and I feel depressed to be back and be getting rusty again. And I've had this. My wife talks about all the times, serious problem with getting back and being super depressed. Not right. I get through it, sure, but you feel like you're starting to get rusty again, and you can see it in your own mind. You're like, man, I'm starting to get frustrated by traffic, and I'm starting to get frustrated by my email not working, when I'm starting to get frustrated by my phone the text not going through, or something like are you frustrated with people? Yeah, frustrating and get people frustrated with people very easily because they don't they don't respect and they don't know what they have, where as us that do spend time out and I go back. You know, it's really really changed me in a anner to appreciate people like I probably you know, I've always loved my parents, but I guarantee you after um, being in the woods and being out with no contact or you know, because back in the day I didn't have a satellite phone. I mean i'd be with someone sometimes add a satellite phone, or maybe at radio or whatever. But um, I always I felt after a few circumstances that have happened with me, whether it be you know, almost falling off a mountain or bear charge of me and about grabbing me, um to just any little thing, you know, I go back and just appreciate my family, appreciate my friends. I remember, like the first few times I went home after moving to Alaska, and just seeing my friends, you know, all these pitily little things that people were whining and griping about, um uh, you know about oh well we don't like this guy anymore, we don't like this person more, or oh gosh, can you believe this? And I was just like, wow, I can't believe this, Like I I don't understand why these people are being like that, like because I just I remember seeing people that maybe I didn't really like him at one point in time, but I'd seem like, hey, how are you doing, how are you man? What's up? How are you? You know? And I got to a point where I could honestly say there was no one that I had an issue with, period or or I just appreciated things. And I think that that's what upsets me is when I see people squabbling over these frivolous things that mean nothing, and and to me, we are out there and we I mean, when we got back from our Codiac trip, which we can dive into whenever, but it's just we will after that trip. I mean obviously there that was you know for you guys, well for everyone. You know, there's some some big mental screws in that thing. And so when you when you come out of a trip like that, it's uh, it makes you appreciate it. So I like, as you're talking, I'm thinking about this could be a terrible analogy, but thinking about as you you know, if you're a knife and the regular life dolls you up, that makes it harder to cut through life. Right, So the dollars you become, the softer you become in regular life, the harder it is to get through situations because you don't have the ability to see the entire picture. So smaller things become harder to cut through because you're just soft and your doll and you you don't you're not sharp enough to tackle challenges. But then you go out and do these you know, whether it's ten days or five days, what, it doesn't matter the amount of time. With these things that challenge you to break through mental barriers and to break through physical berries into into you know, push yourself to two limits. Your your mind is expanded and you're sharper and you can cut through the bullshit of life so much faster because you don't have to because you have the ability to be like, that's a fucking matter. At least I don't have to walk down a thousand feet to get waters, like I'm in traffic. But I got air conditioning, I got heated seats, and I got sure sparkling water in a damn eddie cup. I'll be all right. Yeah, at least I don't have to wake up and and hike down to the creek and right and try to avoid bears while I get my water. Yeah you uh, yeah, you're sitting at your feet or feeling a little sword like, well, at least they're not wet. At least I'm not hiking twenty miles up a river, you know, with sopping wet, blistered feet. You know, I mean, like you say, every aspect is um is made a little bit easier in life, I think, and you appreciate more, um, going on adventures and so like for me, I really you know, Um, yes, I do happen to get blessed with harvesting some large animals in the guide in our guide service. Um, we live and work in an amazing place. Um yeah that's great. But I we take some really big brown bears and do we get tin foot bears? Yeah? We do, um, you know, but it it really I'm at a place out with with my hunting that my goals are to harvest old mature animals. Okay, it doesn't always have but that's what we strive for. I do. I honestly don't care about the I hate the numbers game, absolutely hate it. And I realized that's the way that we major animals and whatnot. And just so maybe when you're telling a story, how big was that whitetail, and you can tell him a score of it? Okay, now I got how big it was. I understand that, you know, And so yes, we do tell people, but I absolutely love it. When I I had a guy I talked to you the day was actually from pratt Um, but he called me. We haven't we haven't talked him forever. He's he's must be eight years older. Mean, I just barely knew hi when I was a kid. But he says, cool, you know, I'd really like to come up and do a sheep hunter, a bear hunt. I'm at that place now financially I think I can do it, Um, But I'm just you know, man, I've been out to call out with my buddies and I really really enjoy the adventure of that. And he goes, that's what I'm kind of looking for. He goes, I don't. I'm not really into the biggest um trophy and animal size, Like I don't even know really what that size is for these animals. But I'm really kind of looking for an adventure. And that's what I thankfully, that's what a lot of my hunters are here for, is an adventure. And they are there and they appreciate the animals there there to collect their meat as well. Um, And so it's it's that is what I love. I love the adventures. And people can say, well, maybe she's just not taking big animals, and so that's why that's why he's saying. It's it's you know, yeah, we take that. I just but I don't. I just want if I you know, it's why I don't typically put the size of the animals on my Instagram or whatever. I mean, I just hey, it's a great old mature bear. Okay. I don't need to a dick measuring contest with some guy whatever. I'm there to, um, you know, you know, show the respect of the animal to it's you know, try to have a nice photo whatever it may be. But that's what I have tried to expose people to these types of adventures to help grow them. You know, is it cool to hunt with someone that really knows their stuff in the field. Oh, it's awesome. I love it when it's a team effort, you know. That's what I try to do things as a team effort, not just um, be the dictator on the hunt and have to tell everyone what to do all the time. Um, it's a teamwork effort. But I also really love I get. I have some guys that are very new to hunting and they've hunted a little bit, but very new to mountain hunting. And it's really cool that they've absolutely there to soak it up like a sponge. They they ask a billion questions, but they ask it in the right way, you know. They ask it in a way that you know they're just wanting to learn, and they soak it up. There's no ego, you know, And that's what I really that's what I really I love doing now. Um. Well, not that we would be here to issue some referendum on the guiding community or outfit in community, but you know, what you're talking about is selling and the selling experience instead of an animal, you know, because you really can't sell the animals there's no you can't. If you if you can begin to predict, then it's no longer hunting. And so you can only sell the experience and say, like, here's an examples of things that we've done, animals that we've taken. Here's the examples. Right, this is what it is. It's a tapestry, big, small, blonde, brown, whatever. Um, But the experience is the same every time. You know, it's a struggle. You're gonna be challenged to be patient, and you're gonna be challenged to be tough. You're gonna be challenged to be um, you know, to embrace things that you don't don't understand and tackle challenges you couldn't imagine. But at the end, that is going to be always the same, and what will change is the result. Something will change along the way. Whether you kill a world record x y z or you kill representative x y z. Uh, Well, do you make a great shot or a bad shot? Like that's all those are part of the the end result of the experience that you'll have doing it. I don't you know, Like I said, I don't. Guiding is what it is. There's a lot of money in it, um, But I think that that whole community could do well to try to shift to you know, your mindset rather than um flip you know, trade shows with giant heads and trying to lwer people in based on that the idea that you could kill something big and those situations. Well, and with us, like with my brown bears, okay, um, with my personal mindset, and in most obviously all guides and hunters want to kill the biggest bear or the biggest as big as that. That's tip, that's tip, that's normal. Um. But with my mindset, I only we only like to kill old mature boars. Okay, those are the ones that are the issue, the problem. Bears that do know exact actually how to go through their life, whether and try to approach a sal that won't mate with him because she's got cubs, so no problem. He knows how to kill them because he knows that will set her back in the heat and so, and if she doesn't want to do that and she puts up a fight, then he just kills her and eats her too. Um. So with that said, I don't even I don't know. I've never heard a number from fishing game of the cub mortality. But we know it's high. And it's not just from the boars killing them. They die naturally, but I but I guarantee they they take out several thousand cups. Feel like, you know the other things you're thinking about from mortality rates to be predation gather. There's not a whole lot of predation on bear cubs. It's just with bears. I mean, I don't know what other bears other bears, um, yeah, and and like but we're yeah, and where I was going with that is as is a biologically like what what I we're trying to do is to harvest those old boars that are the problem ones, that that kill the other bears and therefore lower their population. Fishing game allows us to harvest you know, um whatever. We have a certain amount of tags or whatnot that they give for each area. By not they don't say, hey, okay, we'll let you guys kill some bears for rugs here, okay, and for trophy amounts. Okay, that's not it's it's too. It's for the population control, okay, for a conservation type of effort too, to have the right population of bears or to increase And so therefore with us targeting those old mature boars. We're actually increasing the amount of bears in our areas. It is unbelievable the amount of bears that used to be in our areas versus what are there now of where an area specifically that I've hunted for many, many many years thirteen years me, I don't recall but several years. And that I mean that area we would never see susand cups, and now I mean we see him every day, and I mean there there's been times where I've seen five sets of thousand cubs and they've all got two to three um salusand cups. So me deeply on the side, and you know, part of me, I could have a hunter there that's wanting to do he has his own agenda whatever. But to me, in my mind set, it's like me looking over my crop as a farmer, and I'm extremely pleased, no like seeing what what we have done. Okay, I don't feel like we're hunting too many bears or whatever. And truth be told, we're the first ones to step up as a guide because we get to see we're the first ones that step up and say maybe something to the biologist. Hey, you know, here's I'm thinking I'm seeing something going on here. I thinks I see it both ways, because obviously is a wonderful topic for people to hate on, and we've done so much to anth for more on there said the word anthrow promorphize. That's a big word. I don't know what that means. I just heard someone. I heard someone else say it on the podcast. Um with you know my kid, my kids got a bear stuffed animal. He was just in Montana. He got to hug on a big bear stuff animal. He has one. He has bear pajamas, he has a bear. Books about bears riding bikes, and but there doesn't have any books about bears eating cubs. We yeah, we don't that too often. But then so you know, you put that emotional element into it once you've already you know, given these this animal a certain personality or certain away for for our minds to shape them as as the in their being. And then you got a guy like yourself is talking about him at like a crop. Right. Um, this is very pragmatic way to look at It's very common sense way to look at it. I care about these animals, care about all animals, and if I can kill some harvest them, take the meat, give somebody an experience, and also is built in our model of conservation. Two. Hunting as a tool, right, and it brings value to every animal and brings money to conservation efforts. And it's a tool for wildlife biologists to say, Cole, you and everybody like you kill this many and here's the tags, and then it's up to you to set the market for those tags and say how much they're worth, how much the hunters are worth, the experience is worth, and the animal at the end of the day is worth. I don't know about you. I'd love to hear from you on this, because I'm sure you run into a lot of people that question what you do for a living. But to me, that's pretty great way to have a human interaction with bears, rather than let it go unchecked and let our interaction with them just kind of be you know, last it's less substantial, it's less true. Yeah. And you know if you when you when you when you book a hunt with me, you are coming on an amazing bear viewing trip. I mean we get to see and this goes with any outfitter. I'm just saying in general, when you book a brown bear hunt or whatnot. You were on the most awesome bear viewing trip that you could ever get it to go do. So you get to watch all these animals and if you want, if you want to offend me on a hunt, act like you don't care about the bears and you you don't care and you don't want to look at the bears. Because when I'm putting in the spotting scope on a soal and cup, look at the sow and cubs, and I've had some guys not care and not want to look at him and not you know, hey, no, just let me know when you see the big one. Okay, that offends me. I mean, I you want to upset me, That's what upsets me. Sure, I'm not gonna yell at someone, but it's just inside like, wow, what a prick? You know. I I love explaining things of people. It's my passion. Um. Bears are such an amazing animal. Absolutely love watching them. They do the most interesting things, funny things, um and just harsh things. I mean, it's mind blowing to me about how they can just run over and tackle a cub and just rip it apart. Oh yeah, how much how often do you see that I have only seen. I have probably three or four times. There was one time that totally amazed me. Um that we had a boar. We spooked a boar. We were trying to make a stock on him. We spooked him and he ran across the valley or not. Randy waddled and he went over and there was a sound a cub up there, and he went and he started going up to him, and it was a first year cub and he made his way up towards him, and the sound it was really steep face and she kept going or she abandoned her cub because she knew that, like, okay, I cannot withstand this big boar. He's gonna tear me up. She abandoned the cub, and the boar went over sniffed it, and I thought I was so upset. I mean, I was just freaking out in my mind, like, oh, I cannot believe that we screwed up this stock. He's gonna go over there, and he's now we just got this cub eaten. This sucks. And he went over and sniffed it, sat down and just like took a nap right next to it, and the cub just kind of scrambled away and got away from But that's like the only time that I've ever seen now whether or not that was his cub, you know, and he sniffed it knew it was. But um, that is the one time I've seen that. But I have seen three or four times um, cubs getting ripped apart or um or or seen like I saw like where there was a den and there was a boar that we actually went over on a stock because I could tell he was a boar, that I noticed another bear above it in the rocks, and then I noticed, finally I put it to to together it was blood in the snow and he had gotten in there and was eating the cubs out of a din. And the sow was above looking um, looking at him. Um, And so yeah it's it's UM. I'm pretty sure if anyone I don't care if you're you know, a non hunter or whatever, it maybe UM. I'm pretty sure if I was standing there with a gun and a non hunter who totally disagreed with bear hunting and loved animals, I saw this happening. I guarantee. After listening to these cubs being torn apart, screaming and the mom trying to get to the board of shoving her away, biting at her. I'm pretty sure you would say take your gun and shoot him. He's bad, shoot him, make him stop, as you would would in humans. I mean, you would say, make that person stop. Um. It's unbelievable. I'm pretty sure there's not a human that just said, well, I guess that's nature, not even as are describing it. Yeah, I mean it's We've we've killed a number of boars that if you, um, look on my instagram. Um, this spring, we had a a young lady that came hunting with us. Heard her her husband, Um, and we saw a set of salent cubs going across this hillside and I had kind of you know, I washed them, and they were going the other way, and they were quite a ways off, and then all of a sudden, you know, I looked back and UM, my other guide that was with us, he scrambling running over to look at the spotting scope where they were because they were going around a corner. So we had to run out another hundred yards around the valley to look back up this other side valley. And I'm like, oh, maybe he didn't see those salad cubs and he just saw the big sal and so he he it's the wrong bear or whatever. Well, those Salent cubs went through a ditch and there was a board lane in that ditch betted and the board jumped up and the sound cubs started running and he was going after him. He was his big fat bear and so he couldn't go very fast, but he was on or trail and that's what my guide saw. And so he hollers at me, and so we're looking at him and I was like, wow, man, he's man, he's a long ways off, you know. And I told I told the um, the our lady that we had with us, Lisa. I said, man, it's a long ways, but I'd really like to give it a go if you think, you know, if you think you're up for it. And I said, man, he's gonna go kill those cubs. And she's like, yep, yep. And here you got a mom right that's hunting and she's got, you know, a few kids, and she's like, yeah, we can't let him do that. And you know, you know, she got around great, but you want to talk about light of fire on her someone that that was hiking with the purpose to get there before dark. And um, we hustled over there and he had him backed up to a cliff. And you can see this on my Instagram. I have some video of it, um and photos of it. Uh and so uh, he had him backed up there and we made our stock. We got we were making our way to go to try to get above him, and she wanted to try to get him with her bow, but we knew that this was more important just to get this or killed. And so we as we got closer, UM, I said, man, this is gonna be extremely risky for us. The only shot we had would have put us about ten yards from the salad cubs. And if that is the apps, if you want to think about the worst possible scenario in life, you can get next to a piste off sal who's getting threatened, getting threatened, and here you are another threat to the side. They they're just a tornado. And so UM we the that they in and actually the trail we were going to go on to get closer to him. Um, they end up bailing over the board kept pushing them and they bailed over towards us and and I said, I'm I'm I'm sorry. There's no bow shot, like they're they're coming right at us, like you know, the salad cubs would have to go over us basically for for our egos to get a bow shot, you know what I mean. And so she glad, you know, she took up rifle and as soon as he came over, I mean, she smoked him. You know. In the sound cubs were about fifteen yards to our right, and I was hollering and yelling at him, trying to get him, you know, let him know like, hey, I'm a human, I'm here, go the other way. And so they went the other way and they were fine, you know, but um that it just it just gave you this different sense, and it made you feel like you did something like okay, wow, you can get something you well right. And and so you get to watch that that mother and her and her kids go off and they're fine. But when you think, okay, how many times does that happen? Because he won't give up. He's not fast, but he'll never give up, and he just keeps following him throughout the night. He'll catch him and he'll catch him. There will happen. We'll just think about, you know, you go back into how we treat bears, Just think about how that bears mind works and how our mind works. Our mind works like, oh my gosh, why would you do that? Why would you kill an innocent thing? But we have the ability that could passion to have that go through our minds. That bear that's a killing robot, Like he's not thinking, oh, these poor little beings. He's thinking, I gotta eat and I gotta fuck. Yep, that's what he's thinking. Yep. And and and for us to take an animal with a mindset like that and to turn it into cartoons, and to turn it into pajamas, and to turn into stuffed animals, and to turn it into winning the Pooh, I can't. I've always thought, and it's always it's almost like a thing that what a hunter would think, or some right wing person might think to think, Um, how screwed up that is. But if you are listening to this and you try to break down your mind, how fucked up it is to take an animal with the mindset that you just described, that is an evil monster that you just described, a heartless, fucking killing machine. And we take this evil, heartless monster and we attach our human emotion to it, and then we make cartoons like how fucked up is that? How funked up? And and yeah, and you know, you know it's like in the same same same breath. Then you watch this great animal out there, it's about appreciating this and and and you know they're the most amazing creatures to watch. But like you say, as as humans, we like to we're applying our logic to the situation. It's like, it's still a beautiful animal. It just is an animal. It is nothing more than an animal with animal instincts. And I'm sorry to say this and this and this could happen to meat any at any time. Um, But I think Timothy Treadwell found that out. Yeah. And these were his his his people people. You know, these were his compassion. He loved those bears. But they don't care. They do not care. Yeah. No, I think that's goes all the way back to like how you how your minded. Just once you see something like that, you see something that can be so beautiful at one moment, but then has no filter to resist the urge to do horrible, to do what it's horrible things for it to survive before at the flourish or for it, you know, in that case, bring us sound the heat and propagate it. It actually is mind blowing and scares me to death sometimes thinking about bear viewing trips with some of these people that are not hunters, and and they've seen a lot of bears, and I get it that they watch them all the time, but they take people so close to them to get photos. They're actually harassing the animals way more than US hunters or hunters. US hunters are stealthy. We do not want these bears knowing that we are here. We're glassing them from afar, and we are choosing a specific target to take out. Okay, the one specific. We don't need to go over and get pictures. I gotta tell my guys, I'm I'm sorry. I don't want to. You know, there's no reason to get close to this for a picture. Okay, excuse me. Um. Sometimes we call bears in, you know, but I only call a bear that we are going to shoot because it is extremely dangerous. They come up and they is something triggers in them. It could just be picking dandelions, eating them or whatever they're doing, you know, having a great day, rolling around like a little puppy, and all of a sudden, you trigger that predator since and they are coming and they are they are running or or they could be walking. It doesn't matter where. They're coming to eat you. Okay, you have made a sound that means you are struggling as an animal, like a predator's call or another bear call or whatever it is. Um, they're coming to kill you. And so they're not coming. He's like, oh cool, I want what that dying deers doing. And so they're coming to over and so I do not screw around with that. So I take it very seriously. I don't, you know, I don't just call them to come over to get pictures. And so what I say it scares me is like with these bear viewing people, they just get right up in their grill while they're feeding and they're like, oh, it's fine, we can get up here and get these photos of them, you know, And it's like, have you ever seen a bear like flip that switch when they do? I mean, what are you gonna do? Are you trained to take care of this? Yeah, you've got your pepper spray or whatever, but man, it is so I I I like to think that I am more even though I harvest bears we shoot bears, I almost you know, and I can probably piss off some of my bear viewing people there and Kodiac, but I mean I almost feel that we respect him more. Yeah, just watching him from Afar. I don't need to be a treat them like what they are. You're not. You're treating like what exactly that they are dangerous wild killing machines. Yeah, um yeah, they're beautiful, dangerous wild corrections spectacular. The thing is, I don't want to provoke and and this is and and understand what I say this to provoke an animal and then kill it and have to kill it because of what you did, because of you wanted to try to do you want the first desire to kill it and know why, like, hey, that's an old mature birth. That's a great one to take out. Now I call it now, I can pursue it because I know what it is. I understand it, and it's it's I've thought out reasoning. And it's not just some you know, the killing of lust where I see a bear and I want to run up a challenge and correct stab of a knife. But as as as unfortunately Mr Treadwell found he you know when that bear when those bears are sorry when that bear killed him and his growth and horrible thing, and I you know that. I mean, it's very very unfortunate. But that also cost I believe too, bears their lives, you know. And some people say, well, they deserved it, they killed someone. I realized that, But there bears, that's what they're bears, that's what they do. Do you deserve to get killed and you need a steak like you have to you have to live to and defend your family. And I'm sorry if I off anyone by saying it, but it's just it's one of those things where be very careful what you're doing when you're out there in the in the woods of and how you're treating your camps and whatnot, because the worst thing you could do is to just for your own good, to get a photo of some animal is to provoke it and then have to kill it, meaning like an unprovoked or you know that. Now it has to be we'll treat them as they are, as you say, treat them as they are. If you always treat him as a bear, then you'll be all right. If you you start treating him as a fuzzy thing to take pictures of and hang on your wall. Then you're not gonna be all right. You may be all right for your entire life or ten lifetimes, but that then it becomes up to the bear. Right, then it's up to the bear. And I think that goes for I don't know how many of those videos you've seen of those lions and whatnot in Africa that people decided to get out of the truck and and and get a little closer video of this cat that's lay in his tail, and I can't remember it was a lion. I think it was a line. There was like a video in India of a lady getting out of her car and the line just comes and takes her, just like a driving zoo or like a driving photo market. The line just comes takes her and she's gone. And she actually lived because I think her mother got out of the car to try to like chase after and grab her. Well, the lady that got initially grabbed lived. The lion comes back and kills a mother. And but that with that, if someone was there with the gun, would have killed that line, because if someone's human left, it would have just been killing what it was supposed to kill, which right at this point, luckily for us, is not humans. Right. Would you imagine like that switch right that that line goes through, that barrier goes through, and you've seen it. I've never seen this ship like that before, where it flicks the switch and becomes the nature takes over of the animal, the predatory. The predator takes over. We don't have like we have that switch. You and I both have it, but we just never It's so deep down we just never use it. I would never even think about having to use it. But the only time that like I could think of as like a human would be if you've got in a fight and and you get so route up your journal and that you were in you were you're in that mode of kill mode. You know you're in fight mode. Oh, and I've got a goal. I've also got a goal to find someone in the world that truly has lived the bulk of their life having to kill to survive. Mm hmm. Then I want to talk to that person for fucking ten hours and find out what's it like to have to kill to survive. And then because then we become a lot like that bear, Then that human becomes an animal just like that bear. And all the things, all the constructs of our society and our minds and the way that we view the world now through our brains goes away and deep down all the stuff that's buried in you comes out. And then how do you how do you then look at that animal if you have to kill it to survive. I'm sure there's a you know, plenty of African tribes still still having to do. But that's that's part of when you know, when you talk about that, I think about that a lot, like I want to talk to somebody because all right, we always talk about meat, and we talked about eating while meat is this like exalted thing that we you and I do, But at the end of the day, won't have to do that, right, we have a choice. We make the choice to do it because it fulfills us, but we don't have to do it to survive. We're not hungry when we shoot a deer. M Yeah, I mean even you know, I I know several people in Alaska that lives subsistence, true subsistence lifestyle. You know, Yes, they have a cabin or a house or whatnot they've built that they live in um, but they need to harvest these blacktailed deer. You know, um, if there's family of four or five kids or whatever it is, you know they need to harvest you know, seven or eight deer or whatever it is to get through the their winters in I realize all those amazing Alaska shows they have out there nowadays, of like, oh man, we've got to get this beautiful, beautiful appollarh No, but even those folks have a choice, right because they could get in their car, they could go intown airport, fly to town and choose to live there. Yeah, I'm talking about some motherfucker that doesn't have a choice. I don't know that just literally does not have a choice in their mind. They cannot think of a time or they could do what you and I do. I think the closest that you and I have probably experienced was with that was probably and I can't speak for you, but but to to look and to those people's eyes and to watch the Nepali people, oh yeah, all day long. I mean, and you almost feel foolish, You feel like an idiot, You feel like I shouldn't say almost, do you feel like an idiot? That's that the tangible there's tangible ways like you in the film that we put out for Yetti, you described it as like, oh, there were I'm wearing Italian hiking boots and they're wearing flip flops with duct tape. That's a tangible way to look at it, Like, that's a pretty good metaphor for the way they live their life and the way we live ours. But when you talk to these people, or at least try to gather some of their intelligence and the knowledge that they have, you realize you are a soft dummy, like you're The way that we've constructed our society is to strip away all the good things that these people innately just have and don't know that they have, for example, never having seen a chainsaw, you know, for example, looking at a tree and being like, well, I need that thing to fall over, and I need to cut it up so where can be warm. And all I have is this rusty, old fucking axe. It's gonna take me six months to cut that tree down. But that is the way my life. That's the only option that I have. You remember the guys in the village where we first camped that first night, Um, I remember when I got really sick that morning, Um, I ate something bad or did something and I had explosive vomiting. I mean, I don't remember the last time I've ever puked, and it was, I mean unbelievable how badly I puked. And but I remember sitting in my tent because we didn't go anywhere that day because they sent the porters ahead to go check the pass out to see how we were shooting rifles. Yeah, so I was so sick just in there and in my tent. But I remember hearing this guy chopping a tree and you know, like they fell a tree. It was it was it was a good sized tree, big old live oak, wasn't Yeah, And so I remember them chopping. I could just hear chop chop chopped, you know, across this valley, and you know it goes down. But then later on we went up to that house and they were they were they were cutting, they're cutting up all this board feet of lumber with hand saws and and trying to make like trim or bait or whatever it was for their home, like or these door frames or something. And and me, I come from a small building background, you know, and helping homebuilders out and doing finished work, and so it amazed me to go watch these guys. I got out of the the tent at that men. I just need to I want to go over and see what's going on over there. Like it amazed me. I've always thought, you know, back of my brand, man, it'd be really cool to go build a log cabin like the real way. And so I, you know, went over to go watch these guys work and it was unbelievable, very humbling. But for us to see that, and that's just their life, like that's what they do. We went out hunting with our twenty one porters in our uh Napoli pizza and our giant tents and stuff, went out hunting and came back and they were still shopping on that tree when we came back, remember uh, the same tree, Like three dudes just up there chopping away. It was a guy and his wife, and I think a kid. There's a kid there too, like a I mean eight or nine year old kid. And it's like, think about those people like we met them. They did not have the ability to think about an easier way to do that. They had never seen it. I mean, there were six days a walk from the nearest road in the middle of the you know, western himilayas like they didn't. They couldn't think. Well, you know I saw on TV a chained there's no dishes there, there's no like, no no dish TV. You know, I saw a home and garden about smartphones. People that were you can make your own change, They didn't. This was the only thing that they knew. And because it was the only thing that they knew, it was happy to them and I was. I was made a post on Instagram the other day about like when I was a kid hunting, Uh, we didn't know how to score a deer, so we didn't give a ship. And the point is, like we it was it was the time of my life that had almost zero perspective in regards to hunting. But I didn't need any perspective because I was happy shooting a deer, counting the points and hanging out with my dad. These people are the same way. They have zero perspective in our world, but they don't need perspective world. Right when I was first deer hunting, I also lived at Missouri, moved up to Lisa, Missouri for a while, and UM went to actually high school Lisa and North Um. But where I first went deer hunting with Grandpa Glenn, the guy who got me actually into hunting. I know, one of my family really hunted, but through some people at church. Uh, they introduced me to this guy, um Glenn and um. But regardless, he remember when he when he got us got or he took me down to his farm my first hunt. And I recall be or before the deer season, I said, you know, and I had seen on TV all these like whatever they do food plots, um, you know, put out stuff, you know, and I remember, Um Stephen and I were talking, which is Glenn's grandson, real grandson. We said, man, maybe we could get some of this or this and we could put out some of that stuff. And so we went to go tell that to Grandpa Glenn, and we we kind of like we're presenting what we wanted to do on his land. And he's like, boy, and god damn, horns are hard to eat. You're gonna learn that someday and just walk off and we're both just like what And the point is like we didn't care. We shot those we we we need we got meat. That's what he grew up in a very poor family and that's all they cared about was meat, and we'll talk about the reverse of the spectrum, right like we were talking about adventures ship we create this society makes us fucking soft, and then we go out to get adventure to sharpen up. And then on the opposite side, when society was a little rougher, there was men like you're like Grandpa Glenn, who did need to go out That Grandpa Glen, it sounds like a sharp dude, like he wasn't very dull. He wasn't going to McDonald's and picking up like and watching football Sunday. He was a sharp sounds like he was a sharp guy. And so generations passed. People were sharp and eately because they had to be to survive. Now we softened the funk out of that. Now you and I feel like entering is the way to like reverse osmosis. People hired me to make them feel pretty cool, like Grandpa, like people are to be like, well, give me what's it like to be self sufficient for seven days? Like this motherfucker's self sufficient everywhere? Like the pal was kind of like getting in a time machine and then being like, dude, this was not long ago. In the eight hundreds. People live like the folks that we met in Nepal. Yeah, that's three humans ago. Three humans ago. This is what it was. Now, we're so connected to everything. We suck at this. Well. When I was okay, so reading some of the books about Nepal, they talked about, like reading Snow Leopard and whatnot. Um, you know, they talked about how they would go through the mountains and they would stop in these villages and they would they would try to collect porters and as they went, some of the porters would drop out and they would try to get new ones from other villages. Guess what, That's exactly what they were still doing when we went. Remember they hiked in from the road with their core group, Mom and those guys, and then they would stop at some villages and pick up porters, okay, and they would just come in. There was no email sent it sent ahead of times saying hey, have your guys ready tomorrow. Whoever wants to go, they'll get paid. This not that I know of at least, but like literally, they show up, who wants to go? You drop what you're doing. It could be the acts and and and then they would go. And from what I understood, and I could be wrong, but um, you got like single load pay and then you got double load pay. Remember when we were hiking out, that poor guy sitting there. I mean, all these guys are like soaking what a twenty pounds or something, but like they he had just ginormous load. And I and we stopped along the way and we were almost up to the helly pad or whatever. But I said, hey, we need to help you. Yeah, you want some help. And he was like no, no, no, no, but his back was bad. And but one of the other guys said, no, he won't. He can't let you do that because if you take something from him, the others will see and then he won't collect his full pay because he he signed on for double loads and so then he would get paid more. And so but I mean, just just you know, for I guess what you say, folks that don't know what we're talking about. If we call and I went to Ne Paul a year and a half ago, you're in a couple of months ago for a blue sheep hunt in m l As. Then filmed it fre Jettie with Renan Osterk and ben ayres Camp before collected and so that you know this is the hunt we went on and I don't know that you and I like when we talk about this hunt. You know, hopefully we'll get old together and be able to talk about it many years from now, But like, I don't know that we'll sit around and like look at those blue sheet and be like, look how big the damn horns are on those sheep. We'll look remember that time, I remember my shot. We'll be talking about this kind of stuff, right because I do. I truly did feel at the time. In fact, I may have wrote this somewhere that it was like I've always thought, like if I got the time machine, where would I like to go? Like what uh period in human history would I like to travel to? And you go over there, and it's like getting in a time machine if you really examine the humans that you meet, because they do not have the capacity to to want as we do. They don't have the capacity to be vain that we have. They don't have the capacity to um, you know, they don't have mirrors to look in. They just lived their lives day by day and they're they're happy. They work hard when they're working, and they celebrate harder when they're celebrating, and they have a culture of reverence for everything. Yeah. When when um, that day, I think I went over into that house where they were cutting up the wood to use for the materials in their home. Um, we just walked in to this home, um and Sam shear and I did, and there was a lady there and then she had a young little daughter. And I'm not sure how old she was. She could have been twelve, I'm not I'm not really sure. Hard to tell, um, But she came over and looked at She had seen a camera before, right, but like she just looked at it and kind of pointed, and I just I took the camp and took a picture of her, and she smiled and then she was like she wanted to see it, and so she came over and I showed her the back and she was like you know and like just like then she started touching her hair and her face and she merely went outside and I was like, oh, wow, that was kind of okay. And she came back in and she looked a little different and then she was like, um like pointing to her, and I said, oh, you want another picture? So I took another picture, and she wanted to see it again and she felt I think better about herself on the second picture, but like the normal girl that wasn't very good. But she wrote her whole life cold. But she but there was no mirrors in that house, and I just think she's like, oh, I feel a little rough, like the way she looked herself. And we got she she had Marie Claire cosmetics. She was she was out of the back of her she was a Mary Kay sales. When she was trying to pick BMW, it was crazy how quickly she picked it up, picked up the way to be a human in our world. But yeah, that that kind of stuff. You know. I remember being over there and that this is the hamlet of dol Yarsa. You know how many thousands of people go to to you know, an hour and a half west or east of where we were too ever space camp thousands of people a year ago there Um and to what they told us, well, there was dozens of people maybe in a year's time, outsiders or Westerners or foreigners for lack of a better term, to visit that village. You know, that village was We took what a forty five minute an hour long helicopter ride, yeah, west of Katman. Do Um made one stop for fuel. I can't remember the town we stopped in for fuel. It said poker, and it wasn't poker. That wasn't poker. It might have been well not din't matter. But we're somewhere deep in the heart him lays uh and these people that it was astonishing. And then I remember thinking, like even reading Snow Leopard and not really picking up a lot of it, and and being really worried about not learning enough about the culture, like not coming back like a stupid American being like, oh, that was fun. But they're like, well, how is it over there? I'm like, well, it's dirty, but you can't really explain the culture because you know, Hinduism and Buddhism and those cast systems are complicated. Um. But then I got back, I feel like, you met those people, you learned about who they were. That's enough to get the perspective that you needed. You know. Yeah, it felt great too there. They are very loving people. I've been some other places in the world where they that feeling is just not quite there and you don't get to quite do the things that we just went and did, like walking into people's homes and whatnot. I've been in some places where I did not feel that welcome. And these people, they are such a loving people. Um, I mean, I couldn't believe how welcoming they were born from how much hardship. Think about the civil war that went on there, maybe a decade before we arrived, the catastrophic earthquake that happened three years I believe before we arrived. Less um people in the and dula Arsa telling us stories about the the I believe it was the police force coming in. Yeah, yeah, I can't here if they thought they were rebels or something of that nature. That that area was kind of the belly of the rebellion, the communist rebellion against the against the government, the dictator and the royal family playing those cast systems and that Um, I think it's Sawa was the one lady's hut that we went and sapping around the fire, and I think she was explaining that they all the men that were in that room were thought to be rebels and then we'll probably screwing this all up. But yeah, but police force came in and just shot them all. Yeah, as they got into an argument and they said, you guys are a part of and basically they weren't. They were just sitting there and enjoying their evening and these people with guns come in and shoot them all and drag them out and throw them into the water ditch where we were. You know, we're all sitting right there and seeing everything. And it's kind of like, oh, that sounds like a story they would have done hundreds of years ago. No, that happened two thousand and two, whatever it would have happened. Yeah, And then you know, Man Bahadur are a good main guide telling stories about during that same time period, being conscribed by Um. I believe it was by the rebels to be essentially be a poacher to feed the army. Um and all the things he had to go through. So yeah, I mean if you don't go, if you if you are incredulous enough to go through that experience and when somebody says how it wasn't, you'd be like killed a big sheep. Yeah, you are beyond repair. Yeah, you know, and people always like, oh, you're gonna what do you do? You just mount it and stuff like that. It's like, well, yes, of course I mount this beautiful animal. But like when when I want to me, yeah, sure, you can just do pictures or whatever. But to me, I like it when people come over to my home or wherever and I can show them, you know, this animal, this blue sheep. You know, a child could come over and see it and maybe put their hands on the hide and whatnot. But it's it's one of those things like to me, when I look at that and I don't care how big it is right on my amounts or whatever. It's just one of those things when you look at them and you but you remember. It's like a memory, you know. And that's what, like you said earlier, it doesn't really matter how big the horns are. Oh what did it measure? I don't, Oh, I have I've been asked by some people your sheet like, I have no idea. It was just a it was an old broke up ram that I have. Oh, I was so pumped to see that sheep. And I mean that was my dream, was to take an old ram that you know that probably won't live through the winter, you know, um or or very many more by any means, And so that was like amazing. I have no clue how those horns majored. We never did put a tape on him. It doesn't matter. I don't even think we ever thought about that. I know people ask me that too, like how big a sheep? And I'm like, listen, I have no idea. I can tell you that I think gets sad that, um, what you said about taxingmy is sad to me because you know, you and I went to Kodiak killed two two big old blacktailed deer. You guided me and I shot him, and there's so much more to that story than just that, but I had him. You know, Chris Komack, our mutual body made a great double pedalst amount for me, like beautiful, pendous gift of you know, for those animals to be like that, to be presented that way. And I had my sister in law came in my house and she was like, looking at it, really weird. She's like, oh, yeah, this must be really big ones. How you must feel really nice to show off how big your animals are. You killed like immediately going into the CNN, you know, the CNN, MSNBC bullshit media description of what tax to me is and I just immediate was like, and I just said to her, it's sad that you presume that's why that's there. It's sad to me that you your presumption in seeing that animal mounted in that way is that I want you to see how big it is. I'm sad for you. I would would love for you to ask me like where did that animal live? Tell me about the natural history of Kodiak blacktail deer, and tell me the story of how it came to be there. Yeah, it's it's okay as a non hunter or source ione to be curious um and asking questions. That's okay, you know, you can you can ask someone what why did you mount that? You know? But I think as as hunters, you know, and that kind of goes. You know, we could go off on all sorts of you know, rabbit trails on that. But be prepared as a person, be prepared to tell people and to educate people. Why do you do it? Don't be that redneck. Well that's two big ones to me, like especially like those deer and stuff like I mean that trip, what what an amazing memory and an amazing um uh respect to that animal to use that animal? Oh my god. Yeah. And I told her, I said, I have long since eating those those deer and I and I U yeah, yeah, and I try and I traveled with those deer their hides and their heads and their flesh from Alaska back here, and then we ate them right here, like then there they are. That's not them, but that's you know, that's a fasimile of what they were like. And as much as I love European mounts and as much like we were talking about this, and like the head of a white tail deer and a black tail deer and a cus deer looks just about the same, and like you're not. If I held up accused deer skull and a black tailed deer scull, you could, if you're a hunter and you know the animals, you could probably say that pick them out. But what a difference to see a whitetail mount and a blacktail codiac blacktail mount. It's like different different colors and different colors. And just so I was and I'm thinking, I want to see this animal the way it was. It's important to me to see that. And so yeah, that part sucks. I hate when people do that, but I also know why they do, because hunters have we've had a very bad like you said, it's did a fucking real bad job of making taxidermy. About what we're talking about you know, right, and it's artwork. You know, if you talk to Chris, like, this is art that he is trying to bring back and recreate life here. It should be when someone walks in, wow, that is a beautiful animal. Wow. And they may not know what type of animal it is, but to walk in somewhere and see a life size whatever it may be, you know, I mean it should it should not be a scary looking thing, you know. And so if it's good tax for me, it should be done beautifully. And it's great to be able to like take kids and and show them like, oh, this is ah, this is how big this is. This is how big that is. This is what this is? And why do they have that? Well, they have horns because of this reason, so to educate people. Um, but you know, it is what it is. But um, people are gonna hate. And you know, and we've done a bad Like homes, right, tax to me, in homes is normally gathered into a one room, right, we call it a trophy room. And I think that's part. You know, those things are just part of the probably you gather them all together like a collection rather than presenting him in your home is like a tapestry of your life, you know, which is what I want to try to do. I just I'm building a new home right now, and I think about, like how do I present my hunting life in this home as opposed to just like how do I stack them all up in a in a barn or something so people can see all of it together. I like it because like you walk from my room and you see that, Yes, hunting is happening in my life, but it's not. These animals aren't there as a collection of all the things I've done. It's it's my experiences, you know, personified and weird in a weird sense. So I I wonder and I you know, stuff that Chris connect does, like that ship will last forever, like those deer will last as long as I'm alive, and probably to my children, yeah, they're they're just you know, it's it's a great memory. Like I said, that's the way I look at it. I love. I love looking at something like that and looking at the beauty of it and just remembering that animal you know, and and knew that and and and know that we did the most respectful thing that we could after taking its life. Well, and then then those two deer's case. We we hunted those deer, you know, not a very it wasn't very spectacular, just like we could tell the story to hunt it. It was mostly just like Nepul would be the story of how cold it was and how windy it was. Um, that story the story of hunting him. Um, it was very much like you knew where the big deer hung out, or at least where somebody hung out. We went up, we found him, got lucky enough to get them both and a pretty um for that country, pretty easy scenarios with with a rifle. But then after that we ate him in camp for our survival and a sixty mile in our eight mile on our wind guests in December and Kodiak. We packed them into a raft, rafted down the river. That river froze. Then we pulled their fucking frozen heavy flesh heads out of the out of our rafts, build our camp back up, and then the next day hiked the frozen meat and heads six six deer, six full deer. Four or five of us hiked these things out. Was at a couple of miles we went I think it was four miles, four miles. I keep saying to I'll take four all four miles to our pickup point. Like that's my experience with that meat. And then it went into I went to a plane that went in the head too. Then it went to a plane, then it went to Kodiak, then it went in a cooler than it went with me to my home and went in my freezer. It's feeding your family, you know, it's it's the whole experience. Yeah, it's like Ben doesn't center and go man every like whenever we've told these stories, it's not like you're not telling people. You see how big these bucks whatever they were, giants bucks. But it was our adventure. What it was, uh you know, like we talked to you know, it was an unbelievable adventure and it it truly uh well, when you have those hardships, like going back to what we talked about earlier on, when you have those hardships, that makes you appreciate things and and and once you once we find because it end up taking as we did three trips to get you know, um, all this dear meat that we had corded up in our packs and and in our personal camp gear and everything you know out um to get picked up Um by plane, and so I mean all this hardship, Um, it all comes down. You know when every morsel that meat, when you're eating it, I mean, your your family is appreciative. But it's like as us as the hunter who pulled the trigger or hiked it out. I don't care. You don't have to pull the trigger. But when you help someone a part of that hunt and you're sitting there cutting your meat and and put it in your mouth, it's just like, wow, I remember this, I remember what we did. It's like putting life back in your fucking body. Yeah, it's it's like, hey, man, I told my wife all the time. We got in a little bit of a spat recently. And I've said this little podcast before, but like I've I've I've continually just said, like, hey, look, if you overcook a piece of meat, who am I I'm terrible I cook. I'm no uh no fancy cook. But like, let's have an idea of let's have an idea of like why I might get upset if the the last piece of Kodiak blacktail backstrap gets overcooked and left on the counter. Just if I'm upset, I'm not upset you for your cooking skills. I'm upset for the opportunity to consume more of that and will enjoy that in a way that I want to. So her and I keep coming back and forth. She keeps bringing it back to you're a dick. You keep making fun of my cooking. I'm like, no, no, I don't. It's not about that for me. I don't I appreciate that you cooked it. I just want you to understand that, like, it's important to me that we really, I have reverence for this piece of meat, that we don't just stew it up or we don't just like we think about it. We and and we celebrate it and and we don't just you know, throw it in a taco and you know, And so her and I maybe will never get on we probably will never get on the right wavelength with that, but we continue to go back to it because I'm like, I'm never going to not be upset if if um, the last tender loin is is cooked a hundred eighty degrees, not that she does that all the time. Sorry, you're wonderful here. I made some burn ins. Yeah, it says tender loin on the package, and so we yeah, we are always always going back and forth about that because I'm like, you gotta reverse herit and then get in the trigger. She's like, I'll just throw in the oven. It's fine. It tastes delicious, so it's always but yeah, that just goes back to me. I'm like, I can't go back and get this right. One of the things that I've always wanted to do um in my dining room, I always show to be cool. I just bought a house and I you know, started trying to put stuff together. But I always saw this little thought in my brain because I do appreciate so much of where my meat comes from. I want to have like a little TV screen or one of those like photo album things right there at the end table, like when you have like a group of people and have like photos of the hunt and of the animal going in the background, and maybe some people that like freaks out, but I'm talking to me personally, I feel like, what a way to remember how I got this or how my hunter got this animal and to just remember it's like in remembrance, you know what I mean, Like when you're in church and you and you go take the communion and you know, and you're praying and you're you're remembering, you know, And so for me, I always thought, man, that'd be really cool to have like just a little screen there, and maybe some people wouldn't even know what it was, because you don't want some people like because you know how that would go with some some people that aren't like, Okay, slide slide, sit down. I know you're hungry. You sit there and you watch every slide about this animal that I've killed. That's right. But no, for me though, I just think like it's just me by myself. I just think like it's like to pull the photo of that animal or a couple of pictures of the trip to me, that like makes me, I don't know, makes it more happy and makes me think about the respect part of it. You know, that would be for everyone. Your wife may not like that. What's that? That's what's in your mouth? Yeah, there's the gut pile. I mean there's been that's been. He pooed his pants before that. That was a picture. We're into, Paul, how many times total did you and I have too our pants? And like, let's get into let's I'm happy to get into what like what shooting your pants really like the definition of it, because we have the thing we called the shart right and which is just I mean, there's hundreds of those, you know. The problem. Yeah, sometimes I guess from what I've heard when um, when you go to places like that, Um, it's the types of food you eat, and maybe the richness of it. Um. Chris Kamack, the tax dermist is out there. It's looking in Chris. We're telling a really important story here. So anyways, Um, apparently the diet that you're fed sometimes and I think even Ranan and those guys said, yeah, typically when you come over here wants a trip, you know, you'll get you know, some stomach issue and everything's dirty. Uh, every like the water and you can't drink the water. The fruit is hard to eat because it's washed in the water. Uh yeah, I mean, and it's not like they I mean, the outfitter does a great job and good food and all that kind of stuff. It's not it's not really the point. It's like, it's just everything is done a little differently. And apparently it's fairly common to um get sick. And so it hit me first and I was explosive vomiting, you know, and so um it then, But it kind of passed through me fairly quick that one day, and then after that I was pretty good when I was doing the acclamation hikes and right, I'll be off. That's right. It's so when when I um, I remember just sitting in my tent and like the one time I would get out, I have to go to bathroom, And I mean, yeah, you'd be sitting there, think it's just a little gas and and you know how that goes, and all of a sudden, whoa, and you have to bail out of your tent because it's getting ready to get really messy inside you're sleeping back there were those those darn what do they call it the Tibetan sports or something. Yeah, but regardless, so that that went through me fairly quick. But it seemed like the next day, like the days after that's when it hit everyone, and I believe or noton was starting to feel like some stomach pains and this and that and the other. Um. But yeah, there was probably I think three out of four of us definitely had some scrub about our underpants, had some things happen. Well, this is an open forum, just discuss it freely. Yes, I do feel like you have to sugarcoat what right? I recall and and I mean Ranan's I don't think he'll get too upset, but I recall. But what was it that you know? We were asking, you know, each more, like hey, man, how you feeling You're doing okay? And and I remember I was either out of the tent or I could hear him in the tent, and it's like, hey, right on, how are you feeling this one? Uh? Um no, I'm feeling better. But last night was a little rough and I was and it's like, okay, what happens Like, um, well, I had to use the bathroom and I didn't make it out of my sleeping bags. I mean, you know. And and Derek, you just yeah, when it when it's getting ready to hit you, you don't. I mean, well, I here's my story, the story of my that's I feel a good way to the end the podcast. We're not gonna end on poop. Okay, yes we are, because that's our relationship. We've we've had more hard times with our underpants than uh. I was in the height of well it was right. It was as you were the morning before you went out and shot your sheep. When we got really into the area where we knew we could hunt. I've been puking all day. I couldn't really get out of my tent. Anytime I move I did, just my body would just like quiver with pain, stomach, head, just my whole existence was being attacked. And um, I would just be at some point during the night, I was puking in my vestibule and I distinctly remember you wake it up and gone, then are you okay. I'm like, I'm okay, just letting it rip in the vestibule and and and it was better. That was a rough time. Yeah, And and what was it the day before this all happened? I mean, you know, this kind of stuff hits you, like, especially like out too, sickness or whatnot. I mean, when you were hiking on the trail, it was fine. And then what was it when you stood up all of a sudden it I was in the snow all of a sudden. Was when those when are our donkeys or our mules got stuck in that past And we had just summoned the the very first summon out of camp. And yeah, we were going through a pass and it was like the north to have a mountain where there was really deep snow, and the donkeys were loaded with all this gear with the porters and it was too deep as snow. They were post holing, and so they had to offload all the stuff, and the porters were running a load of gear up and then we're gonna come back and grab the rest of it. And so we were just taking our time along over stopped while we were, and they were filming some of it and trying to get figure out what we're gonna do. And as we were stopped and nobody saw this, but I was like standing up and then all of a sudden, I wasn't standing up anymore, Like I was just sitting in the snow or laying in the snow or whatever. Okay, that's interesting. And then from then on it was just my head was gone, like my there, you know, my brain was just not functioning. We're seeing things. I saw that wolf and a little baby, and then you know, not only the scarier than that kind of stuff was that like walking but not gonna understand like if your arms removing or if your legs were moving, or if they were doing the right things, Like your brain is not talking to your extremities anymore because it doesn't have enough oxygen to really do his job. And that was scary. And then I got over that, thank god, because you guys were discussing my exit from that. We were going to use our emergency exit Plan Global Rescue to get Ben out because we thought there is because when you when I saw you find because we're on and I got to camp and I kept looking back with knocktors down the valleys, like where is Ben? You and Ben been airs? Where are you guys? And finally when I saw you guys pop out of those trees like a mile down or however far he was holding he's holding your hand or holding your arms, and I was like, oh, that's not good. And you guys were going one step at a time, and when when you finally got you there, I you know, we kind of just I just thought, Okay, it's only gonna get worse, like for you, like we have to go higher and further, like I just don't know this is gonna work. And yeah, we we were discussing how we're gonna you know, there was you know, because I think you you went through some this for a couple of days or how many days. Was that for that, I mean, that was just that one experience. But then I slept. So what I think happened, and what Ben was talking about was like I had I didn't get the flu. What I was getting the flu like I was getting the old cabman dow flu. At the same time, we hit that high altitude and I was so dehydrated, like my body was kind of battling everything that it just kind of attacked me all at once. I remember sitting down in the in the main tent with you guys and being so fucking cold. But it wasn't really that cold right day, but I was so fucking cold that I just felt like my whole body was breaking down. I was cold, I didn't really kind of didn't really know what was going on, and they put me in that big north Face poppy. Remember, I just sat against that chair and they have filmed interviews like what's going on, Ben, I'm like, I don't know, man, this amount was trying to kill me. Yeah, it's like, let's just go lay you down. You're like, no, leave me here, don't move me, don't touch me. And I went out and pee. I remember standing up to walk out and go pee, which I did, and realizing I could walk, and I was like, now I can make it to my tent. I went over to the tent, I laid down and slept for twelve hours or something, and then and they had give me diamox and giving me a bunch of anti nausea, you know, pump me full of stuff and full of fluid. Slept for twelve hours, and I think the diamox did its job, and I felt better when I woke up, better enough to eat breakfast with everybody. And then it was given the order to like, go hike up there and see if you can right. Well, at that point, because I think I had taken my ram um the day before and the goal was to get you the ram closest to camp. Well that was no, you hadn't taken your ram yet. When when that was happening, we we didn't even go to the next camp. Yeah, that was right, we had to go to the next That was the camp that was the kid were hiking to the cam we're hiking to when I had altude sickness wherever it was, that was yeah, that was the first camp. That was our first camp. And then the next morning they said hey go we all degree. We remember we did some interviews for the We did interviews for the film, and then I went off with Raju, one of our main guys. You went ahead and they said, go ahead, and if you have any troubles, that's right. We're pulling the plug on this bitch. That's right. And as we get going, I'm started feeling pretty good. Where you and I were laughing, but he's like, oh, you're better now, thank thank goodness. And we get going. We get up mon is way ahead of us. Our main guy, Mon is way ahead of us, scouting for sheep. Well, we finally we get up to where man is. He sees his sheep. He's trying to show me whe where it is. And as I'm looking up the valleys trying to find these sheep in the alpine, my stomach explodes, like I got what you had two days prior now, you know, post my altitude sickness or mountain sickness or whatever where I had going. Now I've got the secondary attack of immediately just doubled over in pain. And then I know you guys they READIO back and said, hey, we got some sheep. You guys all come forward out of camp. And by the time you get there, I'm already kind of laid up against the bank. Um. And it's a pretty bad way. But now it's not out to do sickness. Now it's you know, my stomach is turning a knot. And so we glass of sheep up. Mon gives us like, we're hunting now, We're not just walking. We're hunting now. Gives us the speech listen to Mon follow them on, and I'm like, I remember him talking. I'm just like, dude, this is the most miserable what is this? And remember we hi. Then we hiked forward to the next camp, right, and you guys are then again ahead of me. By the time I got there, I collapsed in the snow by the time I got there, and they put a tent up and I just crawled in that thing. And it was that night when I was puking out of the vest of you um. And then that evening, in the middle of the night, I get up, I've got to take a ship. I get ben airs or medic comes over to help me. I'm struggling. I'm like a week I haven't eaten anything for a while. And he gets me up and I pulled my pants down and it's just like it's I can't stand up. And I fell over in the snow and I laid in the snow my pants down and I let it fly. I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing with laughing. And in the night there was their nepoly porters came with their flashlights as I laid in the snow, and they were like, are you okay? Okay? I'm like, look at me. Do I look okay? I'm not okay? I am dying here? Yeah? You are? Yeah, And that's what you know. And that's when they said that. That's when they said you need to go up and shoot these sheep. Ben will not be able to get it round. They said, Ben's not gonna get Yeah. That was like decided upon that I was not going to be hunting. And I went in my tent while you went hunting. The next day and just laid there all day long, twenty four hours, just laying in my tent. They would bring me all types of food and every smell of every food they brought, maybe puke again they brought. They're like, what we bring curry chicken, Oh, we bring curry pizza up we bring curry tea, we brought you apple. Then It's so a full day of that. But then that evening you guys returned, and I was feeling like, I think I ate some rice or something. And then you guys got back and I saw your faces, and I was like, oh my god, Coal is one of the toughest people I know. For non Ostarch is probably the toughest person I've ever met. And they you guys looked like you've been through a battle. It was blowing. I remember it was blowing up top there, and we were so wind burnt. My lips were so chapped and burnt up. The roof of my mouth was burnt. I mean that was that was a big had been through and from my perspective, having like almost already being too weak to do very much at all. I remember I got up at one point during that day when you were out, you know, doing the real hard stuff, and I'm like, I think I could get to the creek down there. It was like a hundred yards away. I could make it to get back right well, And it was it was that what do we what do we say? Say? Listen? Um? I think I stayed back and I worked on the sheep that next day and they decided to take you for a little hike because they said, if you you gotta go try this otherwise. We remember they came there like you cut your sheep. And they came back and they said, can you go? Can you go hunting? I'm like, I can try, but I gotta light here more like I can't. I gotta eat something and try to like stand up. I haven't stood up, and you know, thirty hours, let me figure out how to get going here. And uh, then mom came back. I was like, there's a sheep close to camp. It's your only chance you will see you get up. You must get up your weekly and uh. He took me up there and we got up that freaking hill. But I couldn't. I said, look, I can't care anything, you know, I was, there's no ego and for me at that point, I was pretty weak and and and I just said, pack whatever you can in my pack and just get the rifle and let's go. And they yeah, we we we summited pry and know when we went up a thousand feet maybe feet, and it was pretty gradual and they were, you know, there there was like an old lady a crossing the road. They were always like, on to grab my elbow and then they helped me up. They were doing the best. Yeah they were. They understood I was in a bad way. Um, and mon let him on later said, you know, I didn't think there was no way. Yeah, and enter you like, no, he looked like pretty fit, I guess. But I like how they put that. And then they put in the video like it was talking about you. He's like he's yeah, but yeah. And then we got up there. We get up to these sheep and they're like three or four d yards away and we realized that they had not packed my range finder and I subsequently and I felt pretty Um, I felt pretty desperate to kill a sheep and get back out of there. And I took a shot I shouldn't have took because I didn't. We they were like three hundred and I'm like meters or yards, I don't three hundreds. It turns out, I mean I shot where it's back. One shot, sheep run away. I just remember thinking, well, you know, what a miserable, like, what a failure this is has been so close, so close, but there's no this is I feel better, but not strong enough and then yeah, to trying to go get water out of my Yeti bottle, and they had poured boiling water into my Yeti bottle, which, as anyone knows his Yetti bottle, it doesn't get any cooler with time. And so I went to take a large drink of water and poured boarding the water down my throat and on my face. Lovely experience, and then just lost it. Just lost it. And I feel bad it even to this day for losing it like I did, just like you know, just at at at my wits end with like this this continual right right things. And after seeing you go up and shoot a sheep, I'm like, man, I'm not that far away from this. You know, it's not it's not easy, but being healthy, I think I could do it, Like sure, I think I could do it. And then that night we all talked about it, and then we pretty much decided let's go. Like I got back to camp, I was feeling pretty shitty, but I got back all right. Well, I think that fire it was lit in you at that point in time, I could see that you were piste. Yeah, I was frustrated, and it was like it was good though, because I'm like, I think he looks better. He got up there, he you know, and yeah, they basically said, I mean, you can put it your way. But I know how we had it to our like okay, mom's, Mom's like, this is our only goal. And they're way the hell up there. They're up and over those mountains, and it's kind of like, do you really think he can make that? And it's like, well, that's the only thing we can do. I mean, we just have to try and otherwise than he can right, otherwise I'll start going back. Yeah, And and in truth be told, you know, you never said I can't do what. You were always like, yeah, let's let's try it. And we're all like, well, good, I don't think you can actually do it. I never thought in my mind. In my mind, I thought because I remember eating my first granola bar and feeling like that was a wind and I thought, well, that's a winet is possible. But then it just kept me like I said, you get a little winds, like I got a little food in me, got a little more sleep because I couldn't sleep us so sick, I never slept, So now I have no sleep I have, you know, I haven't. I wrote in my journal and read it a lot. It's just like just kind of listing the misery points. But then yeah, then we decided to say we can. We kind of have to. He said, this is the last last sheep that we know they're in this valley that you know. I said, way, it's like, we gotta get up. I remember them saying, I gotta get up at five am. We gotta hike up over this past. Yeah, it was kind of like showing us what we need to do, they pointed. And it's kind of like one of those things as a guy, you're like not sure if the person is gonna be able to do it right. Yeah, that's where we gotta go almost like can intimidate you or see how you're gonna you know. But I don't remember any specifics around that, any conversation now, I don't remember anywhere out of it. Still, Yeah, I don't remember any Like, I just remember getting back to the tent after I missed this sheep and and burn my face boiling water and sitting there and ben Airs coming over. Ben Airs is this gentle, beautiful person like coming over and just saying, like, what's upset? You're upset. I'm like, can you tell you about I'm a little bit upset. I wish this was going another way, buddy, Like I wish this. I wish I was healthy and fit, and I think I could do this, Like if I'm healthy and fit, I think I can get it done. Like I don't. Yeah, I often even now think back of what it would have been like if we were like I was healthy, for all of us, it would have been a whole different experience. Um, I'm glad it went the way I did, but sure, well, yeah, but it would be a whole different experience for you and for everybody else in the trip. Had I been yeah, but I thought, you know, yes. The next day it was. It was a beautiful day. We go up the valley, that huge pass we had to go over, and I'm thinking with every step, I'm like, oh, boy, one ft in front the other. But I have been around so many guys that once they are um faced with adversity, how they can break down. And you never did that day. You just kept putting one foot in front of the other and you'd have to sit down. You were weak. We'd get your water, but you just sit down and we'd you know, and you would you get up? Yep, I'm good, and you just one foot in front of the other. I had a few breakdowns that day though. I remember taking my tracking poles and I remember Roj, you're saying in what little English she could say, like I remember, remember we we go up this snowy pass and like it's literally I don't know how many feet of snow. It was four four snow that was iced over, so you would be stepping on the ice and hoping that you didn't fall through, and you started to fall through. You know, anybody that's hiked in that kind of country knows what your post holing and every steps like going another mile, you know, when you're in that situation and we're at what sixteen thousand feet at this point, something like that, sixteen five. Yeah, now we're post holing for what seemed to be hours. I mean it was hours to get up and we summoned this. You know, it was a pretty gradual valley, but for that place, it was a very long, long, just arduous gradual. It wasn't a climb, like we didn't have to climb hands and knees, but it was a long slog and postal on through this ice. It's cold and um. We get to the summit of this uh of that ascent and we look at across this valley and I remember thinking I made it up here because they're like, the sheep are up there, and I'm thinking, let me get my gun out and get it loaded because you know, you know, the sheep are gonna be around here. And then finally they spot him when we look across, I'm like, this fucker is there's a mile and a half. Yeah, they made it sound like they were right there because he went around the bowl and they waved us over. Sheep, sheep, sheep, and it's like, okay, right here. I'm like those sheep. I range. I'm like, wait what down there? And I ranged and it was like seventeen yards away and I looked at like that's too far. We're all like that far, he's not gonna make it, and we were. That was That was the one time where I thought this is over because it was hot as funk. Then remember it was burning our skin, like you know, the roof of your mouth is burning. My lips were chapter glare off the snow, glare off the snows, and it was actually fairly warm that day after, like you say, it got warm, and for being in that type of climate, it feels when it does break and you get that sun and no, when there it feels hot. Oh yeah, because there's just there's no there's not as much atmosphere. The air is thinner, so that sun is that much more intense. And so we're sitting on that ridge glass and the sheep and that sun is hitting me and I'm I'm just like I can't remember. I remember thinking like this is some real adventurous stupidity. I'm gonna go after these sheep, but I'm not sure how I'm gonna make it up out of here, because I'm thinking, well, we had to drop down almost two thousands. Yeah, so you gotta drop down feet after climbing three thousand and then go back up with the sheep and I gotta go back and I'm thinking, we're gonna have to camp down here, but we don't have any tents or anything with us, because it's like maybe you know, we left camp at six and maybe six hours later we summ it like that. That the thing I appreciated most about man, and I mean this from like a guide standpoint. There was no question in Mom's mind. Once he saw those once, like he kept pushing ahead to scout and look. Once he saw those sheep, there was no question at that point whether he was going to get you there or not. He knew it and he's like, we go down here and you don't like keephould we go here here here, and we'll go there, and like he was all about it. I was back there probably not on those guys are thinking what that is far Like I don't know if I would have been if I was guiding that time. I was thinking, that is a large drop off in a quite a bit of chunk a type of ways over there. And so for him to be that falsy to make the call to do it, um, you obviously have to be there to see it. But um, he just you know, and you guys just grabbed. There was not much talk about it. He said, you guys stay here, I'll take Ben and Raju and we next thing, you know, Raju and I and Mom are sliding on our asses down an icy cliff, I mean sliding to the point where and they were again treating me like a grandma, like trying to hold my legs from so I wouldn't flip, but we slid a thousand feet down a cliff on our butts and now you're wet, and it's like and so then after that we got down to the bottom. It was a pretty easy traverse up to the point where this where. But then we had to go up a big ridge to get to where we could lay down in the glasses sheet. And once we got there, that's when I knew. We got three fifty yards away, That's what I knew. I was like, oh wow, I'm here. I came all the way here, and I'm gonna kill this animal, and I knew it at that point I knew. I was like it was almost like I started looking back up at you guys who had stayed up in the hill, like how are we gonna get this thing out of here before you shot it? And then I laid you know, mon and I discussed which sheep was which, and I laid there and we were waiting for the sheep he's laying down to turn, and I just remember like thinking, being the most calm I had been in quite some time, not nervous, no pressure to kill it. I knew. I was like I didn't come like I didn't come all this way, and there's no way this thing is not going to die right here. It's not happening. And it was, you know, it was. He turned in his bed a little bit, stood up, and then laid back down to the point where I could get a bullet in him, and one shot and he stood up, ran a circle and fell over. And I didn't cheer. I didn't. I just put my face down my pack and kind of like cool, soaked it up, soaked it up a little bit, and then even getting over to the sheep. Now we gotta go down this little icy actually this little icy ravine and up over to the bench where they were at, and there's another three feet and then we gotta go. But I remember the mountain to the How would have it would have been to the south of us whatever, Yeah, I would have been the south because the sun was on. It was the most beautiful range I had ever seen. And I sat there with the game scout and he tried to explain to me that he had a snow leopard trapline. Oh right, yep, And I remember thinking, oh my god, that was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life, regardless of how I got there, and so those moments are special. Man, yep. I remember ran a seeing there just being blown away that like, wow, it's actually went down. This actually happened, Like I cannot believe it. Ben shot as sheep, and I mean, and I can honestly say that us three had um. I don't think there was any question or mind. The day or two before that, you weren't going you were going home probably on a helicopter, and this was not going to happen for you getting your sheep, and so for you to pull through on that, it was it was amazing because it was I love those success stories with my hunters, showing them what they can do, and so for you to pull through and you to do that is just amazing for us to see and you know, and no one you know, yeah sure people. Yeah. Unfortunately it wasn't shown on the on the video you guys did um, which I wish that was shown because the adversity and that was it was amazing that you you conquered that, you know, and so that was amazing in itself, and it was like on our way out, I just remember you were like a new man, you know, you were just I mean we were just hiking up and I just feel like, whoa Ben? I remember, like I remember when I finally was feeling good, right because you got sick and it was a day and then you like have a day to kind of day and a half. Well, my day and a half was, you know, well plus out to six. My day and a half was kind of in the ship, right, I had mine, and um, I finally felt good. I don't think it was because I killed a sheep. I just think it because I finally think the I think the exerted energy helped push things through your body quickly, or maybe and getting more hydrated, getting some food in you, all the above. What do you remember? Like, So we killed the sheep, we go, we do our pictures and all our stuff, and then we start hiking back to the summit where we saw the sheep from, and I remembered you. It was you and Ben Ranan would be good ways ahead of me the whole time, Like you guys would hike ahead of me and then stop and I eventually get there. You hike ahead of me and stop and I eventually get there. The moment when I felt the best was when we got to that summit and we were taking pictures and jacking around filming. I finally felt good, like I finally felt clear and good and healthy and happy and not even killing the sheep, not even getting like but getting up that because now I knew we were going down into camp and were going down into camp and I don't want to go up anymore for a while. Um. And then when we're going down through that valley where we had to post all up, we slid down on our butts and I remember sliding down with ben Airs like fucking cheering as we went. I think you went forward a little bit about us we were and Rogerie was sliding and every we're all sliding on the ice and cheering like a fucking roller coaster. And I was like, dude, that those experiences are. It was a spectacular day because I think everyone in camp, everyone was so excited for you that whoa, he did it, like he actually did it. And I guarantee you pushing through and doing that, that showed those guys that anything is possible out there, because there are people that show to those camps that cannot do it, they can't make it up the mountain, and so to have those people in camp that they help get through those times. That helps the next person to the other and it helps, you know, to tell these experiences and for them to put in their you know, their their memory bank, you know. But well, yeah that they you know, the hunt we went on before we had, you know, the Kodiak hunt. I came out of that thinking, like, man, I did pretty good and then really struggle. I put a hundred pounds of my pack and went four miles. We did it. Like I didn't get sick or falling the river. You know, I didn't grow up doing stuff that you've you've been doing for many more years than me. So for me, these things are monumental. They just are. And I'm not something fucking a don you know, average height to average build, don't really like these things for me are are just more monumental. I'm not afraid to say it. I give a ship. I have no ego about it. Like, these things for me are just a little bit the mountain a little bit taller than for other people. And and like I said, there's other people that can't do things that I can do the same. But I've always been quick to realize that these things are beyond the scope of what I ever thought I could could do. And so leaving that Kodiak on, I'm like, man, legit you put you had a bar like legit, and I hopped over it and I felt good to have done it. And then the Paul was like, I wasn't really sure what the bar was, but I knew it was. This is the hardest, but it's kind of a really screwed up moving bar and I shipped all over it. And then it's like, but that hunt's describes like the hardest mount hut in the world. It is hard, and I don't have a lot, you know, the one really you've been to Azuba, John had done those other things. Um, yeah, and I think you're right if you were healthy. You know that the the the obstacles in Nepal is mainly the altitude. Yeah, that's what the obstacle is. It's not I mean, it's a gradual client like you don't there some steep places, no doubt about it. But it's mainly the altitude. And but there you can be on Kodiak and turn it into the roughest, nastiest physical hunt, like chasing goats or deer something up a brushy hillside. In August or September and having to you know, beat your way through all that stuff. But I mean, there, I've been in so many places around the world where like I'm like, wow, I've said a new bar of ship here. This isn'tbelievable. Yeah, so you're you go through like days and days of no footing, no trails. We walked on most of our time hiking through Nepal was on old but not old. They're rarely fairly new hillside goat trail, goat and cheam trails, and so you know, we were hiking in high altitude. It was hard, and we hiked a long time for a lot for a for a few days. But it wasn't like what you do in Kodiak, where you've got to beat brush and slog through you know, bogs and stuff. We have a footing. So it was hard and just a hard and different way it was. I mean, it definitely set a new physical bar for me um on pushing because when I went up after my ram with with Mon, I kind of made the mistake of I'm going to stay with man and I am going to hike just as hard as these guys, not to you know, but just to like, I just felt like that's what I need to do. Well, You're in the hunt that way, and I'm wired that way, and and so that day pushed me extremely hard. I've never expanded my lung capacity to that size of like just breathing so hard, and and so that day I just remember like, wow, I cannot, you know. At the end of that day, I was so taxed and spent, But it was a different level because yes, I've gone through brushier and nastier type of things like on Kodiak or cheecats with sheep or whatever. But then I was like, I have never felt like that before. And I what I came away with on that huck because I've always thought about, you know, I'd like to go some of some of these big mountains sometime, you know. But I kind of came away with the feeling, you know, and what you know, waking up in the middle of the night not being able to breathe very well in camp that night. I think you and I both were really uneasy that night and we I remember getting out of my tent. I had to because I felt like I wasn't getting any air in my tent. But that uneasy feeling. It made me think to myself, I'm not so sure that I person really have a big desire to go climb on these really big mountains like I just you know, and I remember asking, right, honestly, does this ever get at me better? Like you guys are so used to this, And he's like, um, not, I mean it's no, it's really not that comfortable. And the guys that do it are just wired differently, and it's kind of like I guess like us. I mean, they just they pushed through it and they're mentally strong and and so for us to do these types of hunts no matter where it is, you know, it sounds mantola, but it's it's one of those things that I think it just it makes you appreciate things in life, getting back to what we talked about earlier on makes appreciate things in life, coming home to a nice, warm home, being there with your family, nice cooked meals, good gear, everything in a place like you and I were in that case, we were voluntailor really there no um. And this is why I think military members even think about us like you know, okay on a hunt, but like you paid for this, Um, I think you put yourself in the thing where you the environment is out to get you to a point where and you can't turn that off. It's relentless, like you can't turn it off. And then the in the normal world you can turn it off and you want, you can turn like if you're like, man, I'm really not feeling it today, I just like to after work, I'm gonna go home and wash them team to stay at home. Turn it off. You can turn it off. You had sick days, turn it off out there. I had sick days, but I couldn't turn it off because I either like the chord and get the helicopter to come or walk the funk out like, so you can't turn that off. You can't take an easy day out there, like you just have to push through it because there is no other way to be. And that's how those guys are. And then the more they push, the more they can push, and the next thing they know, they're standing in the top everest. You know. I think that's how that they described it to me. It's like you keep pushing the next thing you know you're the highest thing, and you just don't think about it why you're pushing, because otherwise you'd be like this scary, never mind that nowhere and you just never mind the oxygen in my brain. Babies. Anyway, we did. This is where we at two hours and seventeen minutes. Cold Cramer not goodness. We sure rambled on. We really did. I hope it was interesting for the folks out in the podcast land. He probably was, well, thank you for having me. I'm then I really appreciate it. You and I have many more adventures to come, and you know, at some point in time we're gonna do an enjoyable trip. No, I'm trying to think of one for you. We've done like several non hunting trips that were relatively enjoyable. You know. I think what we're gonna do next time is we're gonna blindfold you and then we go and you'll just be like, where are we going? Cold Surprise Pakistan. You are at the bottom of the ocean and you have diarrhea. How did you make me? Uh? Yep, you know, I just you know, I don't know why Hannah doesn't like me. Well, I will say Hannah told me today that she scheduled the photography session that year. Us so Cole's Smart Start Start Man he knows how to play things. He um for. As a thank you for Hannah, my wife, allowing me to come on these great adventures, she bought us a photography package too, because he's noticed. You had noticed when we're on our trips, I do like to look at photos of my family, especially on Nepal, when I was like, I hope I get to see these folks again. Yeah, be nice. Oh here, I enjoy senior little man and and uh telling your stories and yeah, yeah, so hopefully, yeah, we're gonna get some photos thanks to your gift of our family that I can look at you next. You've always done for me. Well, next time I'm shipping my pants with you, that I can look at those photos like, well, we'll have new sponsors. It depends felt diapers. Oh god, no, man, I'd like to say. I always say, you know, I'm thirty two and you're fifty five. I look like I Thank god. My girlfriend thinks they look good with great hair otherwise. But you know, we got a long ways to go in this this industry, this world, hunting world. So I'm sure they'll be numerous more things that we do that we'll have required two our podcast to unpack them, many many more adventures to come. Thank you, buddy. All right, thank you sir. That's it. That is all. Thank you Mr Cole Kramer so much for being the guy that you are being a part of my life. Truly appreciative, and I am also appreciated everyone listening through these first eighteen episodes and coming up to me at events this week at Total Archie Challenge, I probably talked to you know, fifty or sixty people that have listened to the podcast, and each one of you that have come up and chatted with me have been respectful. I just wanted to to shake hands and talk about this thing we're doing called the Hunting Collective, and and that keeps me going, that makes me excited about the future, and it's a bright future for us here. News regarding that future coming up real soon. I won't teach you much more than that, And in the meantime, you can go to the Hunting Collective dot com check out articles, videos, other podcasts. The last couple were great. We had Adam jan Kee on, we had Casey Butler from Hushing, We had Ryan Callahana First Light, Fred Eichler, John Gaye of b h A just a bunch of great conversations with a bunch of great people. Please right in, let us know how you like it, let us know who else we can have on and how we can do it better. As always, many, many, many, thank you, and we'll see you next time. Bye.
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