00:00:04 Speaker 1: Clean your Gun, Janiorbo where the Uncollective show calling Hunters new and all uncollective show with thanks or fancs that opinions are subjective. You're listening to the whole collecting. Hey, everybody, welcome, it's another episode of The Hunting Collective. I've been O'Brien, Episode one coming to you. It's almost Turkey season. We are excited, Phil, Are you excited? Yes, I'm excited. We just got This is a sneak peek for the episode. We just got done talking to Tony Peterson and uh, you know, Eric Hall, My my, my numbers getting higher. It's getting high, eric um. Yes, we we just got finished going through some of the ins and outs of Turkey hunting with Tony Peterson. Tony is a writer and a expert in all things really all things hunting, bird dogs, white tails, turkeys. He is a currently a new member of the Mediator team in a lot of ways, and you're gonna be hearing from him in a lot of specifically white tail ways coming up real soon on our platform. So we wanted to have him on we We can't get into specifics about exactly what he's gonna be doing, but a lot of cool things in the in the books, and he's one of the best public land hunters in public land turkey hunters out there, so we had him on. We're excited about that as we prepare Phil for your first hunt. We're only about a month away. Do you have anything. We talked about this at length with Tony, but like, you know, you just gotta give the people a little taste of what it might be like to have you out there for your first You feel like when you kill this turkey, you're gonna celebrate, You're gonna scream. Are you gonna feel relieved? Are you gonna be like, all right, let's go? That was great? Do you do? You just take people through what your emotions might be with your first turkey only a month away? Do we're waiting for this? We've been waiting for this for for literally a year probably, and now we're coming up on the time when it's gonna happen. Yeah, we were gonna be We were gonna be in Texas about this time last year. So yeah, it's been it's been over a year, um, and we've been through a lot. We've been through pandemics, we've been through Barry Gilbert that's that's true. Wow, We've we've been through vlarious geist, We've we've eaten veggie burgers. I mean, we've done a lot since this time when you decided you might want to go hunt, and then we we got Chuck Norris and David hasse off to convince you. Yeah, man, my my good friends were actually getting dinner tomorrow. Um, I can't, I can't wait. I'm really good guys. Yeah, flying out here just to see me. Honestly, I mean, like, I don't. I'm sure the moment, the moment will be thrilling, and the moments leading up to that big moment will will also be exciting. Um, I don't. I don't see myself hooting and holler in and and and take in a grip and grin. I mean maybe I will. I don't know. I just I I kind of. Um. Yeah, it's it's it's hard to look from the from the outside in on on something I haven't experienced yet. But I think I think I'll take it in stride. Yeah, I think you will too. I think you will too. Um, there's there's just so much to think of, but this is gonna be our first podcast obviously. Well we're we plan to do another podcast when Phil and I go to the range. Hopefully we can pull together. Maybe honest Pitelis will come with us, maybe Cal will come with us. Who knows. We'll do another podcast at the range, and then, UM, you'll likely be i'd say second week of May, third week of May, you'll be hearing live and in color. Not live and in color, but in color and in your ears. Fill on his first hunt from from start to finish. We're gonna make an audio symphony for you of of Phil's first hunt, so everybody can get ready for that. UM. One thing, Hey, can I do a couple of corrections real quick? Phil, plea you mind? UM. I don't often go back and listen to shows that we've done, but try not to because I don't know if anybody should like to hear the sound of their own voice, but I particularly don't. UM, but a couple of folks rode in, and particularly some people that I really respect within back country owners and anglers, to to ask me or to call me out a little bit and ask questions around my position on archery seasons in Montana, specifically for elk and crossbows. Um. It's it's something that I don't. I don't know that everyone. Obviously most opinions, not everyone will agree, but it's something that UM groups that I belong to and and in the leadership's positions for don't agree with my particular view on the crossbows during archery elk season. UM. I wanted to say a couple of things. One, Uh, Phil, do you remember this part of the conversation. You think I should rehash a little bit of of how it is. Well, I think it's something it's been a while. I may just like a quicker recap, a quick recap of it, and I'm gonna make it simple. Um. Very there's a there's a contingent of Montana hunters who would like to to not allow crossbows into the archery elk season for many reasons, primary of those being that it would increase the harvest rate, UM increase success rates, which would increase which would then increase the harvest, which would then possibly um force Montana fishing game to shorten the season to manage for that increase in success. My feeling, and again it's not in my opic opinion. A lot of people have a lot of other more intricate ways to present their their opposition to crossbows during this season. My feeling is that quite simply, if there is a more effective killing tool to be used, we should use it, UM, and that we should be thinking about the efficacy of our hunting and if we have to shorten our seasons so we have to adjust the way we do things to make it more efficient within an archery season, that's what we should do. There's a lot of people that disagree with that point. There's a lot of people that agree with it. UM. That's I'm boiling it down so we can move on. But that's basically where we are. UM. I've heard from a lot of people that either agree or disagree. But one thing, after going back into listening to it in my conversation with Dr James Tantillo from Cornell, one thing I'd like to apologize for and correct is the way that I approached anyone that had opposition to my opinion. Because there's a lot of people I really respect that opposed my opinion. Uh. I was way way too flippant in the way that I described someone who would like to restrict crossbow used during archery season. I think I called him selfish. UH. If I didn't call them out right selfish. I made it seem like they were being selfish. Um, I was dismissive of the opinion, and it it wasn't. The way that I was acting was not going to foster the dialogue that I want to foster and the way that we try to approach these important and complex issues on this show. So I apologize for that. Uh, it wasn't. I was caught up in a conversation and I'd let out, um a framing of of that issue in a way I shouldn't have. So I apologized for that. It's not that everyone that disagrees with me is selfish and I'm and I'm self righteous. It's that that's the way that came across. That's not the way it should have came across. So I guess what I just wanted to say was it's is a disagreement or a difference of opinion on the topic is exactly what we're here to suss out to figure out. But the way that I went about approaching, uh, setting up that debate or my side and and possibly the other side, was was unfortunate. It's it's it didn't shine well on me. So I apologize for that, and everybody listened to episode one six nine. Hopefully we can. I can. I can learn from that and be a better representative of these dialogues, a better representative of everyone that listens to this year program. And so, um, we won't belabor that. But that's my my apology for that philt. I don't know that. I probably could go back and listen to all my podcasts and apologize for something I said in each one, I bet, but this particular one came to light, and so I'm apologizing for it. I don't really have any excuse for it other than I sounded like a jackass. So any commentary, Philip, uh No. But I don't envy your position. Bandon the thought of having an entire backlog of hours of things that you say into a microphone when sometimes you're still processing your thoughts and opinions, but then someone can go back and and hold like eight hundred things against you. Um, it's not a fun place to be in, I would assume. But hey, I think it's important to address some of the some of the more the ones that stick out to you. I think that's good. Yeah, well, I think particularly when it comes to some of these issues I sit on the national board for the North American Board for Backcleunchry, Hunters and Anglers, and I take that position seriously. I take that as a position of leadership. And someone isn't trusting me to not only think through the way that I approach things, but how I approach things. And so UM even with our conversation today about mentoring being a mentor to you UM or to promoting THHD as a place where other people can come to be mentored or mentor themselves, is UM is important. I think all these positions we put ourselves in of leadership, it's important to address um the positions that we're in and not act like well, it's it's tough to be in a position of of leadership or a position that's I'm I'm here voluntarily and you're not really here voluntarily unfortunately. But I am so that I think this all goes well into a bit of a controversy that's laid out across the Mediator Lands Escape and really across the hunting community over the last week or so. UM. So i'd like to address that, Phil, if you don't mind, before we get to Tony Peterson. It's something that obviously I feel very strongly about I've shaped my life around the hunting community. I've shaped my life around trying to grow it and trying to be a positive force within it. UM. It's it's something that is not only my job, but it's a community of people that I care about. This is an extremely important thing for me personally, UM and for the listener of this podcast. The article that Matt Rinnella wrote was called the Case against Hunter Recruitment. Now this for this, for this particular show, let's try to set set the stage here for this particular program, we are hosted by owned by a part of the Meat Eater Network Media to Podcast Network Media Incorporated. The company itself which has a myriad of different voices across the landscape when it comes to white tales or mules in Arkansas, UM, where guys with mustaches here in Bozeman. We have a myriad of voices across this country, and and all of those voices I respect. All of those voices. I want to be heard, and I'm I'm happy to be a part of a company where we can hear them and I can work with those individuals to help tell our story as hunters, to help promote what we do, and that that is both internally and externally. Internally amongst the hunting community, we need to promote a a a more inclusive culture. We need to promote a better way of thinking about the ethics and morality of killing. And we need to find a way to then take that to the broader external audience and help explain to them why we of this thing so much, and when they try to vilify us, we go at them as if we've talked about on this show so many times the level head and explain to them why our value system around honey is so important, both personally but also on an ecosystem level. So I say all that to say, a lot of people, A lot of people, A lot of people I would I think I could call friends. A lot of people that would would I would call industry friends, acquaintances within the industry. Are are are pretty piste off about this article called the Case against Hunter Recruitment by Matt Rinella. Matt is the brother of Steve Ronnella, the founder of our company. He's also a research ecologist who I've hung out with a few times and and I find to be a great person, and he's devoted his life to hunting a conservation. Um. You've heard him on Meat Eater podcasts, We've done live shows with him. I did a few live shows with him. He's an hilarious guy. Um And and anybody that listens to the media channels knows that for years now he's been debating the merits of hunter recruitment with his brother and with anybody that will probably listen. Um And And really it's antithetical to what we do here at at Meat Eater. I don't want to get caught up in and listing Meat Eater or Steve Ronella, or my or anyone else's resume when it comes to hunter recruitment. But I feel like we've done a pretty good job. Um, I'm proud of that. And this article, the case against our three, the case against hunter recruitment. Matt makes a whole lot of points, almost none of which I agree with. And if Matt was in this room right now, she's not, we probably have a nice argument about it. We'd go back and forth. I would state in my case, he would state his case. We would go on from there. It's different. I understand when it is in the public forum, when he's writing an article and it's different. I understand when there's a four word to this article by by his brother Steve and and it shows up on our radar, I understand all those things are different. After I'm not going to go through the point by point of this article. If you'd like to read it, you can go to the medior dot com, or you can just search the Case against the Hunter Recruitment. You'll find mats article. You can read it and decide for yourself what you would like to do with it. Whether it pushes you to have debates amongst your friends, whether it pushes you to think a little bit more about hunter recruitment and how to do it. Um is. Really it's up to you. So what I will say about this article itself and kind of the reaction there was. There was an article posted it in Outdoor Life as a rebuttal to uh Matt's article, and there was also an article posted by Lydia of Hunters of Color which I read. I I just feel like we're in a position now where there's a there's a couple different ways we can go. And I just explained the way that I see this first, As I said a little bit a minute ago, I absolutely positively. I think about our three hunter recruitment and how to do it more than I think about just about anything else. Turkey turkey hunting, say maybe turkey hunting right now. It's something that I believe Holly in. We're building our t a C cult here and our family of th C listeners around this idea that it is not only intrigral to our community that we we promote hunting and bring people hunting, it's integral to us. Everything is better when you're teaching someone and helping them to follow your passion. Everything is better when you're doing that. And as I've said before, I feel like if someone approaches you and says i'd like to learn I would like to go hunting, and you don't know them, and you tell them no, and ain't good for you. It's not a good look. It looks selfish, It looks like we have an insular culture rather than accepting one. So it's just not a good look. But I'll follow that up with saying, matt Rinella is somebody that I know that I I know to be a good person and I know to be uh, somebody I'd like to listen to and hear out his thoughts. So I definitely I read uh all the articles in different rebuttals and some of the outcry online about Matt's article, and but as a way of getting to the point, as with most op ed pieces, most opinion pieces on any website, and that's clearly what Matt's article is, his argument against organized Arthur efforts. It just does not capture the sentiment of everyone here in Meat Eat or doesn't that capture my sentiment? And I think that's probably obvious given what you're listening to right now. But I also think acknowledging that there is a case to be made against our three and being open to that reasoning is as important as anything we can do. It's extremely important whether I agree with Matt or not, it's important to hear him out. This whole dialogue can spark llthy debate, which I think is happening right now, or it can be conflated into damning an entire company, an entire brand. We can do either one or both. But I don't think that everyone at our company, this podcast, or guys like Mark Kenyon or Ryan Callahan who have fought for years for access and for Hunter recruitment. Mark Kennon Kenny himself and I have worked very hard to donate our back forty property or sixty four acres in Michigan to the National Deer Association for exactly our three efforts for hunter recruitment. We just did a whole big giveaway in an episode about that. So conflating Matt Ronella's opinion with our entire company, our entire brand, everyone in it. It's just not fair, um, same way as if there's somebody that wrote an opinion you agreed with on our website and you and you said, man Meetater is the best because of this opinion. I don't disagree that that we could have been a little bit more forward that this was was an opinion, not our opinion. But I have to read the article is pretty clear that's what's going on. I think hunter recruitment groups like Hunters of Color are and in groups now like THC are important and vital for the future of our community. But as for Matt, I'll defend his right to state his case even though I don't agree. Still, the year the new Hunter for me still gonna keep on going. I understand if you've probably not read this article, and you've not read um the outdoor Life or Hunters of Color rebuttals to the article that you might not understand what I'm talking about, but go and do it and then come back and listen to this again, because it really boils down to how do we grow hunting, how do we grow its acceptance in society, and how do we grow tolerance and community inside? And that's it for me. I was passionate about this idea as I am anything I've ever said on this podcast, and I promise you the future of my career, the future of Meat Eater, in the future of everyone talking into microphones or looking into cameras, that this company will be fraught with debates like this, but also will be marked by us pushing forward into the future and trying to get more people to understand what we do and come be a part of it. If you've ever watched anyone in our company, from the Meat eat or flagship Netflix show to Cows we Can Review, to Janice's Mediator Hunts, You'll know what I'm talking about, and you'll know that's our mission. So I'm not gonna fight over it, but I will state my passion clearly. And now we're gonna teach Phil how to Turkey Hunt, on to Phil and Tony J. Peterson, writer Turkey Hunter Extraordinary. Tony Peterson, how are you, sir? I am excellent, buddy. How are you doing. I'm doing good, man, I'm doing good. It's uh. I was just telling you we had like a windstorm at our house last night. So it's been we have powers. That's been a sketchy day, but it's sunny outside. Yesterday was like fifty five degrees, man, which means which means it's it's time to start thinking about It's not time to start thinking about turkeys. It's time to start like getting our gear ready, like because I guess you guys, when is your last season open up there here in Minnesota? Is the fourteenth? Okay, so yeah, you're like us for the eleven roughly here in Montana. So uh, it's time. Though. I'm going to Texas on Wednesday. It's gonna be It's gonna be fun. Texas is always fun for turkeys, isn't it. Like Yeah, Well, there's a lot of things we could do with this conversation. We could probably list our favorite turkey destinations, and I gotta say like, Texas is one of my top only because you just bought. You go to Walmart and you get four four turkey Texas. They just don't care. And most landowners are like, hey, listen, if it doesn't have horns or antlers, do whatever you want. Yeah, Texas is a wonderful destination for a turkey hunter. Yeah it is. Yeah, the ridos are fun. We're going down south near the border and then for the last well not the last couple of days, but a couple of days of the Southern Zone season, and then going up to the Northern Zone by Austin for the opening day of their of their season on the on the fourth it is, or the third. Oh, man, it's gonna be. It's the beginning of it all. I know. It's awesome. All right, Well, we got a lot to do. Phils here, say he's still here. He's hanging on. Hey, how's it going, Tony Ben? What does that mean? What are you implying? What? Oh? You just normally you're not here for the interview poor part of the show. Oh, that's right. This is a special occasion though, And also I just mean, like, you know, mentally, physically, you're just hanging on at this point, I'm doing oh with th HC. Of course I'm always just barely hanging on with th HD. But in general, I would say I'm doing I'm doing pretty well. I'm I'm feeling I'm feeling good, feeling optimistic. Good. Well, it's a big you got a you got a big couple of months here. You got about we have about a month to prepare for your first ever hunt, first ever turkey hunt. And I mean we get people were asking me the day have you ever shot a shotgun a gentleman at a church? My wife and I go to sorry to ask me all these questions like I don't know, I'm pretty sure that you never shot a shotgun for the purposes of of hitting anything. That that is correct? Yes, perfect, Okay, let me make that clear. Um, Tony, do you have any preliminary questions before we get get to the subject at hand, because basically Phil is gonna go hunt first week in May. It's his first hunt ever. We we've talked a little bit about gun safety a little a while back. We're gonna start to get it onto, like what is a turkey? Why is it awesome to hunt? It's hard to keep Phil excited, but this is what we really gotta do here. Well, so this is a Montana hunt, I'm assuming it is. Yep. And what what kind of shotgun is he using? He's gonna be using a weather weather be e ten I and we're gonna we've got three inch TSS loads. We've got a we got it right here. Let me get it out. Um, hold on, I'll figure out what choke is in it because I just switched chokes out. But it's got a t S S. It's got a Carlson's TSS oak in it. So he's gonna be well healed. I've got a vortex solar red dot on it. Um, so should be well. Here, he'll be well, he'll to kill the turkey there. There will be no excuse to miss twelve gauge. Yeah, that's what I feel like. It might it might hurt feel a little bit, It might hurt you, but it definitely isn't going to tickle the turkey. Uh. The turkey has no chance if you put it in the right spot. Yep. Yeah, so we gotta we gotta get through all that. But first, Tony, you gotta tell us, like, what are your turkey plans for this year? Man? I have a new puppy come in this spring, so I kind of I kind of reined in my travel a little bit. But I've got this is this is a perfect podcast for me because I am actively in the process of getting my nine year old girls ready for their their second Turkey season. And so we are shooting the four ten and I hope we just we just did one session. You know, they shot last year and they both killed birds. But they were really really scared of the shotgun this year and I don't I don't know why. And so we we started with a four tent or sorry, we started with a twenty two, and then to get them to bump up to the four tent, they were like real cag So long story short, it ended up costing me forty bucks and two twinkies, but I got them shooting it. Phil. Do you like twinkies? Oh? I love a twinkie? All right? Yeah. That was like those oily chemicals, just chewing, chewing in between the sponge cake and that frosting. Like it's great, this could be twenty years old, it could be fifty. Nobody knows. It doesn't matter. It doesn't really matter. Yeah, they don't expire. So my my focus right now in fact we were out yesterday putting up some blinds is get them on birds, and then I'll do my own Minnesota thing and then skip across the border and hunt Wisconsin. And then I drew in Iowa tag. So I'm sticking close to home, but I'm gonna get a few states in and and bow hunts some birds and gun hunts some birds. Sweet man. Yeah, I mean it's it's uh, I'm there. I'm you know. My son is four, My engineers in his early thirties, and I gotta teach both of them kind of. That's we went out. My son I went out in similar interests as well, the two of us. They both played video games, dinosaurs, um. But my son and I went out, and I just, I mean, he's never I don't think he's he's never hunted with We've done a ton of fishing, ice fishing, um across the board, and so he understands hunting like when we go out. We talked about it, but I you know, being a four year old, I just haven't taken him with me yet. But I feel like this is the year that I'm gonna take him with me and we to kind of preface all of it. For him. I took him out. I knew there were some turkeys on some local public land. I took him out a couple of weeks ago, and I said, I showed him a turkey. There's a turkey. So interesting. Um described to him you know winter flocks, what they do. And then we just took an old cottonwood tree, busted it up that had fallen down, busted up and made a little lind Uh. As I come to find out, it's called an Arkansas blind, but where I came from more like a Maryland blind. Uh. You just make you just take some sticks and make a hideout. And so he loved that. Man, it's just like building a fort in the woods of your dad. Is a is a is a fun thing to have. Did you ever do anything like that, Tony where you just kind of started him off with like general interest in the outdoors? Oh big time, man. I was thinking, you know, when you said he was four, I think my girls first sat with me when I was five or when they were five, and they got to watch me shoot a couple of turkeys. And then you know, last year actually hunt. But I also brought him out and we did some you know, squirrel hunting and you know, put your back to a tree kind of stuff and just or even duck hunting to get him in the blind. And so it was just a matter of like that soft exposure, like get him into the fun stuff. And it doesn't you know how kids are, man, it doesn't take them long to find cool stuff out there and and dig it as long as you keep them going, you know, that's right. Yeah, And so yeah, we've done a lot of We've done a lot of bird watching, like, we've done a lot of animal identification, went to Yellowstone over the weekend. I'm I'm telling him that's a big horn sheet, this is a ram, this is a you. So that's that's where I'm at right now. But this year I do want to get him into Turkey blind. Call one in, put the muffs on, Daddy's gonna Dad's gonna shoot in the face, and uh, this is what you know, this is what it's like, and just kind of gauge his reaction because you just don't really know, right you have, there's no idea, um how they're going to react. How many twinkies are gonna have to buy? You're gonna need snacks, I promise you that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ice fishing was basically just my son with a giant bag of trail mix playing find the M and m's so sorry. That was the entire deal. We did catch a couple of perch, but beyond that, he was just like, what's the next snack that I'm gonna eat? Dad? Please? Please please? So that's yeah, That's where I'm at this year. But I going to Texas. We have a four state turkey tour. I'm sure you've probably hunted a lot of this area we're going. We're doing eastern Montana, UM and then the Black Hills of Wyoming and South Dakota, and then also the pine piney bridges of Nebraska. I've been. I've been through many of those places, buddy. I know you have, uh drip me some way points. I could send you a few spots, but it's you know, those uh, that whole vein of of habitat that you're talking about from eastern Montana down. It's just so awesome. I mean, it's it's it's so easy to understand when you get out there why it's such a destination. Whether you know whether you're in South Dakota or Wyoming or you skipped down in Nebraska. It's just awesome, and the birds are so beautiful, and the country is just it's like a weird, not too strenuous western hunt. Yes, it is. Yeah, and there and especially in the Black Hills. Um, nobody go there obviously, especially not in April of this ship. Yeah, we've already we talked. We've got a we've got a hot topic where when it comes to other people in the woods at Mediator right now. M it's a bit of a that's a bit of a firestorm. So all seriousness, You're welcome wherever I go. Um, But I do think that when when you hunt that country, you realize, man, that it's such you have like big blocks of timber, but big open ridges, especially in that the pine ridge there in Nebraska. Um, it's such varied country. You know, I kill it. We killed a doe up there in the last two Decembers ago and kind of an agg field tucked in some public ground that was right by where a buddy of mine was texting me that he was watching a bighorn ram. Uh. And they're a hunter that had the Nebraska tag for the ram was in there stalking it and he was watching that. I'm like, dude, I'm sitting in an agg field maybe a mile away from you watching white tailed those, which which I guess probably not ites kind of the kind of country that you're in and the kind of opportunities that are in there. But yeah, anyway, we're doing that. You can follow us at first Light. We're doing a turkey tour. We're calling it like the Trek for Turks. We're gonna raise through like a telethon for n w TF. A lot of details to come for that with our boys at first Light, but we're gonna have gonna be out there with Kevin Harlander for Van Fawson, bunch of people from from First Light and we're gonna be trying to kill some turkeys and raise some money for NWTF and highlights some essential projects out that part of the world. Uh, in the western part of our United States because uh, you know, n w TF, this is probably a whole another conversation with n WTF has without a banquet season or with a limited banquet season this year. Um, for folks that don't know, du T F R m EF, A lot of these d U ducks unlimited all a lot of these conservation organizations run on banquet I guess revenue as you would call it, um membership, don't membership, drives, auctions, all the things that happened in any particular banquet, um, those things aren't happening at all or very many of them this year. So that's we're going to try to help uh NWTF replace a lot of loss that they'll have there and have had since the pandemic is kicked off here obviously a year ago. Over a year ago. That's a good cause, man, it is, it is. But now, Phil, we gotta get we gotta get to this, um Phil. Phil is telling me beforehand that he didn't really have a whole lot of questions. Is that right, Phil, You don't have like a whole lot of burning turkey questions? Well, that's true. It's just it's it's tough when I have not fired a shotgun and I've never actually been out in the field and kind of even gotten the one oh one basics about this stuff. Obviously, I've been a part of enough Meat Eater podcasts and THHD podcast where there was a lot of turkey talk and discussions about their behavior and how finicky and unpredictable it is. And and all that kind of stuff, but um, I still I still don't really know the the absolute like foundational stuff to get started with turkey hunting. Yeah, well that's good as all. You'll be a proxy for all our audience here, people that are emergent hunters or new hunters, and they want to learn because quite honestly, um, I don't know if you know, we're talking about how we have our kids in this, but it's good even for season hunters to take a few steps back and kind of explain it from the beginning. UM. I think it's a helpful exercise for both mentor mentee things like that that nature. Um, what do you think? What do you think? Tony Oh Man, I've been I've been staying for a few years. You know. I grew up shotgun hunting turkey, so it was just a run and gun festival. And then I got into the bow hunting thing and realize how different my interactions with turkeys were and just how different the experience was. And I was like, if you really want to get well rounded, do both of these things. And then I started taking my little girls and I'm like, man, if you really want to get well rounded, take somebody who doesn't know what they're doing because you you have such different considerations, and you just realize how much you take for granted as far as being able to call or kind of kind of just understanding the layout of some of your decoy spreads and things like that, all the way down to just movement, and so taking taking somebody new is really it really forces you to consider every set up and every you know, like every potential mistake that's going to be made, because a bunch of them will be made. Yeah, yeah, and that's it. Um, the things that I think, like, get out of the truck, don't slam the door, all the things, you know, why does the turkey roost? Where do they generally roost? You know? When do they fly down? Why do they fly down? When they do? When they hit the ground, what are they thinking about? Like all those things we should We'll get into all that here And that's kind of how I want to approach this. But but those are questions that, uh, if it's just me and U, Tony, you're just me by myself, I just those questions don't even pop in my head. I just it's kind of a you get to be where it's a reflex a bit um and you're thinking about you're really thinking about kind of the minutia, the intricate points, just like anything else. When you've done it all, you get to know that like these are the key moments where success and failure occur, like these, you know, I gotta be where this bird wants to be, or I gotta shut up, or I gotta talk more. Um, I gotta you know, back off the rooster. I gotta charge in there and get under the damn tree. These are the things that you know, generally start to think about once you've done it in a while. But when you haven't done that, you gotta pull it back and you know, go back to the fundamentals and do those things right, Yeah, and be able to discuss them as well. Um, so what do we start? Where do we start here? Tony? So? I would say for Phil, you know, the one, the one great opportunity you know you kind of mentioned this with a gun you're setting him up with is that gun. If he gets comfortable with it, that part is kind of taken care of, Like the the scary part of not being able to hit him or not knowing if you're going to hit him or get him. When you see what a good turkey gun is capable of, it's it's like a really nice confidence booster. So you kind of you kind of like work backwards from that, right, Like, Okay, now, I know if I get that bird within you know, thirty forty yards or whatever wherever you want him at least you know, if you get that red dot on his skull, he's toast. You know. That's like that's like a nice place to start. So you can actually get a lot of turkey confidence just at the range, especially if you have somebody else calling for you and doing most of the heavy lifting. But I think, like I think the mistakes that newbies make and everybody does this, this is how you learn. It is like that red zone. Like you know, they get to maybe within a hundred yards or seventy five yards and they're just you know, they're not as prone to running in like crazy that you see a lot on the outdoor shows and stuff. A lot of the birds that you guys are probably gonna be hunting are not gonna be like sprinting in suicidal. Even if you're dealing with two year olds and there's like this that that time frame between eighty yards and thirty five. That matters so much. And that's when like, that's when one movement or one thing that's just a little off changes the whole dynamic and turns it into panic mode. So I think, like, really just paying attention if you've got one you know that you think is getting kind of within that range, because that's when they surprise you and you screw everything up. And if you if you make that move and something goes wrong or they just they their demeanor changes a little bit, then the panic starts creeping in and the whole the wheels start falling off bad. Yeah, there's there's so many times where you got a bird that's goblin, you're all excited, you're getting ready, and then he shuts up and you ten minutes goes by. You relax, if you let your guard down, then you hear that's spitting the drum and right behind your head you're like, oh, that's what he did, didn't he? I can't. I can't tell how many times I've had that happen. Oh man, Yeah, and you just can't. It's it's never you think, oh, they're gonna come right down this two track, right into our lap and they come from the exact opposite direction. I mean, I'll never forget. I took my wife out probably ten years ago, and we set up in the corner of this field and she was in front of me and I was behind calling just because I gred, you know, they're gonna pop out in the field. And pretty soon I heard a bird coming straight behind us, and she just looked around the tree like, you know, this big whack a mole popping out there. And of course that bird ran away, and I was like, honey, what are you doing? And She's like, I just didn't expect a turkey to come from there. And I'm like, well, you know, like I don't know what to say to you, like they could. We're in the woods. The didn't come from anywhere. But it's easy, easy mistakes to make. Yeah, there are, so you gotta kind of have that understanding, um that they I guess let's run through the turkey senses for Phil, because I've obviously different types of hunters. You're thinking of different types of things and at different times times of the year. If we're hunting fall turkeys, would be a whole different conversation obviously. Um. Yeah, for sure, you know they obviously they're amazing at you know, location and what they hear. I mean, they know where you are. You don't want to make you don't want to make the wrong noises, and you know they see so well, but they have this blind spot when it comes to really good decoys if you let the situation unfold, you know, so if you the problem is you move at the wrong time when they're not fully bought into that decoy trance, but their eyesight and they learned to like they're kind of like an antelope. They don't expect you to be super close to them, so sometimes they do really dumb stuff when you get inside their guard because they're so confident in their eyesight. Turkeys are like that, and when they buy into that decoy spread, it's like amazing what you can get away with. I mean, I'll never forget. I took a one of my wife's relatives quite a few years ago in his first turkey hunt, and I called in three birds. They came into the decoys and he shot one, and the whole morning I've been like, we can't move, we can't do this, blah blah blah, and then he kills this bird and the other one stuck around and let me shoot a thousand photos of it and I had to get out of the blind and scared away. And it's like just when they get bought into that, there's just something about it. You know. If if they're a little little wiggy coming in, it might be a different story. But a lot of times the best thing is just to really understand that if you let it unfold and he he sits there at fort yards and he looks at it, and you'll see him buy into it, just like a white tail with a decoy. And when they do, they're toast like you can. You can get away with a lot more So, it's like they're they know their senses are so top notch. But once they get past that and they go, well, this is a safe thing. And there here's this jake, I want to kick his ass or here's his hand. It's just the whole dynamic changes. Yeah, that you're right about that, And that's there's so many different I mean, you get from hunt to hunt to hunt to hunt, especially where we are. I've had that. I've took a guy out one time, uh in Texas who was he worked at Yet He he he was an engineer, nice guy, similar to you. Phil had at similar age I think I had already had kids, was kind of an emergent hunter himself and had never shot a shotgun, or maybe only once or twice. Um, and we he was a little bit worried about the shotgun he was. He was a little bit nervous about almost everything that happened on the hunt. I ended up calling three times, three giant toms by the way off this little water tank as they call in Texas, off the off the kind of the lip of this tank down across the field. We weren't really even in any cover. Uh. We sat down in like a mesquite bush that was out in the middle of a wide open field. It was the worst cover I've ever seen. And I don't even think I got the decoy out before. I think I hit the call one time just to see if they would gobble, because they were good ways away. And then they just started running at us, and they did full on suicide squad and they and so I just said, get ready, here they come. And they ran into about twenty yards and normally if you had a decoy there, they'd have been on that decoy. They'd hopped on that jake or they'd have been postun for that hen but they were just charging at the sound, and so he got nervous. They got nervous. He shoots kills two of them with one shot. The third one goes like ten yards out comes back. He shoots and kills that one too. So no pre sure feel. But that guy I took him on his first time he shot three turkeys. He had no idea that that was a thing that would was like a once in a lifetime if ever, have you ever shot three turkeys on with two shots? I will say I took somebody out who shot three with one shot one time in the fall. Yes, which was which was not a good thing, just was not. I was not cheering in this decision too that in this case it was a good thing. He had four tags, he feeled three of them. Um but yeah, I mean that's let's say, it's you just never know and and it's you got to be able to read the read the turkey. You know what's he doing, how's he it's it's a conversation that you're having. Um, but let's take a few steps back, like we're gonna fil I'm not I won't get into some sixs and where we're gonna go. But we're gonna be in Montana, and we're gonna be likely in some you know, river corridor, Riparian zone stuff where turkeys are roosting and big cotton would trees flying down and pitching towards agg. Normally they had to run. They got to get through the timber to get to the agg. It's generally probably where we're gonna be. I would think a lot of options though, we can go a lot of places. But um, let's start like in the truck, Tony. Like I said, you gotta think about like when you get out of the truck, what are we You know, it's four in the morning, you're tired, your brain is probably not working as well as it ought to. But then you get out of the truck and you're headed over to a roost tree. Like the first thing you think of is what gun safety? Quiet? Well, yeah, all of the above. You know, you take somebody out new you're always thinking gun safety. But to me, I mean it kind of depends on is this a is this a true running gun situation where you're waiting for a gobble and you're gonna you know, you don't know which tree you're gonna put your back to, or you kind of got an idea like that. Okay, they like to fly down here, and we're gonna set up here and they you know, we might call them past I mean, I like to. I've taken new turkey hunters on that running gun mission, but they've always been people who are pretty competent with hunting other stuff, and I get a little nervous about that with somebody who's a true nubie in one of those dynamic situations where you know, you might get pinned down on a marginal cover, like you said, or you just don't really You've left a lot up to just the whims of nature, you know. Yeah, I think, Um, I'm with you. I imagine the hunt that I'm hoping that we'll get to do Phil It was is basically, we'll have the birds roosted me and you can even drive hopefully it's a quick drive over there, roost these turkeys essentially, which just means watch what truth they fly up in uh market and then decide, you know, what, what are their travel corridors, like where do they want to go? Where do they want to be when they fly down? And then we'll go. We'll get in there early in the morning and we'll get set up, put some decoys out to your point, uh tone any and again like if we're going to run and gun, I'll carry the shotgun just that, you know, feel so you can be comfortable that. Um, you don't have to worry about that when we're moving around the woods where we have to crawl if we've got to, you know, scooting on our ass, if you know, whatever we gotta do. I would generally do that with most new hunters anyway. Um, but to your point, Tony, it just makes more sense. Want to learn learn the birds, to just be stable, have a good decoy set and and get to experience the turkey in kind of a less frantic way, you know, in a more direct way. Will this be later in the seas. This won't be right on the open or will it ben No, it'll be the first week of May. But really here I don't have a whole lot of mine is like second or third season in Montana. I don't have a whole lot of experience. But in my limited experience, you know that first week and make is is pretty good depending on the weather. Do do you think they'll be on like a better grasshopp or kind of bug pattern by then. That would be my guess, Yeah, yeah, my hope. Yeah, so that'll be that'll probably work in your favor a little bit. They'll be spread out a little bit more. You might get a really you might get some really good midday movement then too. Yeah, yeah, so I think. I mean, if we're let's just say, the scenario is that we're parking. You know, I'm trying to picture one of our scenarios here. We're parking roughly a thousand yards from the roost tree, uh, and we're hitting the trailhead and we're getting into the woods and we're setting up. We've got our cover already decided. We gotta get our decoy set up. Take us through that, Tony. I mean, because right now it's that this is this. I have about six or seven options for what Phil and I can do. When I was trying to give him a good idea of and then we can talk about running gun a little bit too. How geeky do you want to get Let's get real, how keeky do you want us to get? Phil? Oh, I have any questions? Not not yet, but I do encourage as much geekiness as possible. So all right, well, if if that's me, if I'm you Ben in that situation, I'm I'm trying, you know. The one the one thing I love about turkeys that we were starting to give them more credit for but we're still not there, is is how pattern able they are, even when it seems like it's totally random and they're just cruising across the countryside. And so any of those times where you can get out there and watch them get off that roost and pay attention to where where are the hot spots? Like where where are these places they show up? You know, and and trail cameras are freaking phenomenal for this in some situations too. But just anytime you can you can get ahead of the game a little bit and go, I've got like a B and C and they're all there's there's birds going through their multiple times a day, or they're they're within hearing range easy of these spots multiple times a day that that time of the season when you get on that, you know, the hands up being nest in a little bit and they'll be on that just random bug pattern. I love that, Like, yeah, I don't know ten o'clock in the morning time frame, and because it's getting late enough in the season, I would probably still use a like a quarter strut jake and a and a lay down hen and then maybe one other hen. But that that's the time of the season when I start pouring back a little bit on my the amount of decoys. When I start out in the early season, like when I have my little girls out, we'll have a pilot decoys out. I want to look like a whole little flock. And as you see that those the spring really take hold you kinda. I I do better when I when I pair back and pair back more, and by the end of May, I'm down to one single hand. But that time frame will be perfect for like, identify a couple of those spots that you know you have good you know, some kind of good tree to set up on or deadfall or something, and then you know, get get a couple of decoys out there in the right spot and give it, give it some time, and each one of those you know, not not necessarily you know, running after the next gobble every time, but at that time here is good for giving given each spot, you know, maybe two hours or something like that. Yeah, that's exactly, That's exactly how I run it at that time of year. Um. I always I start by looking there's generally, I guess Phil, there's two ways you can look at this. Let's say we were hitting a brand new piece of country right and we didn't know if there were turkeys there or where they might be. We're gonna try to locate birds right in the morning. We're gonna use al hooter, you know, in the day, we're gonna use you know, really loud yelps, and then for locating and then crow calls if we want to shot coble the turkey. But um, in many of the cases that we're gonna be trying, I'll know about where their turkeys are, about where they want to go, and again again we will have found the path of least resistance UM earlier in the season. And understand, like you said, Tony, there's gonna be pinch points in the terrain as well that you can focus on in places where you know they're gonna want to travel through, even if they're on the bug pattern or if they're just you know, fully engulfed and finding a hen or fully engulfed in finding a fight, there's just gonna be places where they can work through easier, especially in the western terrain. A lot of times at the Midwest, turkeys are gonna travel like agricultural edges or next to timber, along creek bottoms and some of the terrain that will be in it's it's benches. But it really could just ends up being what's the path of least resistance sometimes to get to where the well. And that's a good point, man. I don't think people we when we think about you know, if I just conjure up a Montana turkey hunt in the first week of May, I envisioned beautiful weather, you know, like it's just so it's so such a default, you know, headspace to go to. But when you when you do that homework and you get down those spots they like to travel anyway, you you're you're hedging your bets against that super windy morning or that rainy day, or just the weather that isn't ideal. You're you're already in a place where those turkeys like to travel, and there's so much easier to call when you're already where they like to go. Yeah, that's exactly the point, Like I can't say anything better than that. Really, if you're a where it's turkey wants to be, you're in such here. I don't know what the percentage chances of having an interaction, but you're so much more likely to have exactly what you know Tony was describing earlier on where our turkey commits to your decoy set up and comes a running and gives you a chance to have you know what, we all love to see his hunters on on YouTube or on TV, or a turkey just attacks decoy, you get to see some some really aggressive strutting and and all you get to hear spitting and drumming. You can kind of get the here, all the things, all the intimate moments of a turkey hunt that you're not gonna get if you just crawl on up and shoot it on a field edge or something. Yeah, it's such a better experience, it is. And you know one thing, you know, it's different here where I live because we're dealing with a lot smaller wood lots. But the one thing I learned, especially when I started taking my girls out and taking some people who are just like had very little experiences when I started running trail cameras for turkeys just to see it was such a confident. It's booster that on some of the logging roads and some of the edges, like you talked about it was it was a guarantee that every day birds would walk through some of those spots, like I've got a I've got a spot here that's between two basically cattail slews and it's just a I found it deer hunting, but it's a phenomenal little high ridge that a lot of animals travel. And it what it makes you realize when you run a camera on it is you're like, if you had the patience to sit there every day, you could kill a turkey without calling. But if you start calling in those spots, that's where they're going. And so you just realize, like it kind of does. It does a little bit of it. It helps temper that desire to just run after the next gobble because you know you're in a place that they just they frequent and that's it's such a huge psychological boost. Yeah, I'm gonna try this analogy and let's see if it works. Fill you let me know if this if you're picking up, if you're already in the bedroom and you're calling your lady and you're like, hey, let's let's get busy, and you're already in the head and this candle's light and there's rose petals about, and there's you know, some very white playing in the background. It's much easier to get everything going than it is if you're like, you know, in the kitchen, cleaning out the garbage disposal. Um, Phil, did that work for you as an analogy? Wow? I mean, that's just that's not my experience at all. I get you know, I'm I'm most I'm most successful when I'm cleaning out the garbage disposal. But I totally see what you're saying, though, Yes, I got it. I did a whole presentation one time about turkeys where I just made all the analogies about dating, and it was it was people laughed, but I think at the end they were like, we're not going to have him back. We're not He's not gonna come back. I'm not really even when we're we're in like peak strut, when turkeys are fired up and they're more susceptible to calling, I always kind of like to figure out where they want to be. I always do I just I don't like running up to the roost tree and thinking he's gonna fly down and pitch over and walk right to me. That almost never happens. It just it's it's one of the most enticing but foolish moves I think most turkey hunters make, is to think, like those turkeys are in the tree, if I just get right over here on the field edge, they're gonna fly right down the field come to me. I just through my experience, I know that seems enticing, but it just isn't the way that it normally goes down if you're seven yards away. And then in our case, fill there's a couple of little meadows um right off the cotton woods over this river where they're going to roost. If we're there, I mean, we could roll right up to the to the river's edge, to the creek edge and sidle up in there and try to be really quiet and have them pitched down in our laps. Or we could get into these couple of these small meadows where we know they're gonna want to be anyway, and just be patient um and and and work them callum, be aggressive if we need to kind of check their mood, but also know that they're kind of heading our way anyway. Um, so you get a little confidence where that's it gives you just a little more confidence. And you know you're not bumping birds. Uh, you just kind of in a position where you're just pulling that string slowly to get him to come your way. Is there any other things about you know, just the way that this goes in the mornings? I mean we can Tony that I could probably go forever. Phil describe why it's awesome, why a morning in the Turkey wood is never a bad morning, Like, that's probably an interesting thing to talk about. I would add something to that, Ben, like I I agree with you that that roost uh you know, fly down from the roost, kill him right away. Thing That is an oft talked about situation that really doesn't happen nearly as much as we make it seem. We we kind of conflate, uh, the really callable birds with the really enjoyable gobbling off the roost. Like there's different things that go on. Yeah, you can kill one right away, but being out there at sunrise is awesome because you hear and there's there's always something going on. I mean, it's it's so rare to not have have something worthwhile to be there for. But the birds that are killable and really are going to play the game, well, they're the ones that you run into later in the day and you know, at least often. And it's a hard thing to for a lot of people to get through. Is you have that rush of excitement right away and then you get a lot of times you have that dead period and it's hard to stick with it. But you get that bird at eleven o'clock in the morning who hits you out of the blue. That's the dude you you take home. You know, it's just it. But it's a hard thing to for a lot of people to get over until they've they've killed a few at that time, you know. It is. Yeah, And like you said, I mean it's it's better with with new hunters because you can kind of dial back some of the more aggressive tactics that you would use, right because you're not you just don't want to do it. I want it's it's not a good of experience. I know you've probably done this, Tony. I've killed a lot of turkeys hunting solo. Where I just said, I know how I'm gonna kill this turkey. I'm not gonna wait. I'm gonna go over here and make it happen. I don't have the time or the patients. I know, I understand how this needs to get done. And having the ability to move on your own and just you know, I've crawled a lot of turkeys up, popped out of the grasses, shot him in the face, like I did. You know that's but that's not something you're gonna do one with a new hunter, or or really with more than one person a lot of times. Yeah, And and to the to extent that Phil, you and I aren't gonna split up when we're out there. I'm gonna be with you. I'm not gonna a lot of times in calling sequences. You know, I might go back fifty yards, seventy five yards or whatever, UM make pretty less than that. But I think we'll just stick together, and we'll be sitting together and we'll be talking through everything, and we'll have won't be able to kind of uh put ourselves in a situation to have I think a better I guess cadence of how a turkey shows up, rather than just charging that one or having it randomly. Uh, I guess they're all there. They can always randomly surprisss tony at any point in time. That's what they tend to do. Yeah, and yeah, I would say to um one thing. One thing with that is, especially if you're gonna maybe set up a little bit behind him or something in a certain situation where you won't be there, I would I would feel I'd recommend you had a something to snip the weeds off, and maybe a little saw with you, and every every tree that you're gonna put your back to, I would make sure you kick out a spot so you're down to bare dirt and you and you swing through your options with you with your shotguns. So you know, if that bird does surprise you a little bit and you're you know, you're a right handed shooter or left handed shooter, you have the ability to to move around a little bit without making noise or you know, bumping your barrel into a you know, dead fall or whatever like just that a little extra you know, it always feels rush, especially if you have a bird close. But a little bit of extra time prepping that spot for the you know, the thing you don't expect can really change the game too. Yeah, that's that's that's good advice because that's the thing with me. I'm mostly, i'd say, in my life, like a path of least resistance person. So that's just something I never would have thought of, you know, I would I would have just sat my butt against a tree and been like, I'll just work with with with this, I'll work with what I've got. But yeah, putting in that that little extra effort to clean it off, make sure you're prepared for all situations. Um. Yeah, that's that's stuff that I I would not have thought about. And we're working on. I'm I'm I gotta spartan tripod that I want to try to use I've never used for turkey hunting. And again I might take it out and just mess with it just so I know it a little bit better. Phil. But having a tripod with kind of a v notch rest on it is something I've been thinking about, um, because it's easy to throw down and you can just sit your gun in it and then you kind of know, um, you know, you kind of know your stable when we when we start working a bird. You know, you've gotta understand you can't if you unless you leave that v notch, You're always going to be kind of in that and stable. I've never have you ever done that before? You do that with your girls, Tony. I do it with them for sure, Yeah, but we have I don't. I don't like it for myself, but for them. You know, my my goal is to put those birds in the decoys at like ten or twelve yards and their shot is only at a bird that's right there. Like it. You know, they're not. I'm not having them. I'm not giving them the freedom to swing on one that bless us coming in or anything like that. So it's it's perfect to have a nice I have a nice tripod rest for them. That's like the very minimal effort to aim right at a turkey that's in in the spot we want them to be. Phil Do you do you find yourself calm under pressure or do you feel like I'm freaking out? Man? Are you gonna freak out on me? Or you gonna stay calm? Oh? No? I mean I think, especially especially with with this, where I don't really have like high expectations. I'm just kind of along for the ride. I don't I don't see myself going into like panic mode. Um, but you know, we'll see what actually happens. It's possible that I'm back there panicking. Sure, it's probably more likely that I panic than you panic situation, because I'll be so excited for you. Uh and you're pretty, You're pretty you know, blase about it. You're like, I'll be out there turkey comps. That's cool, but I'll be back with Phil's gotta kill the turkey. Yeah, Ben, I got a question for Phil. So, yeah, Phil, Phil, do you, um, do you have any any standards for which turkey you might shoot? You know, we Ben, we have not talked about this at all, so I think this this might be something to maybe just go over briefly now. I don't know, Yeah, yeah, do you I mean, Phil probably probably don't really understand the differences between a mature bird or two year old What do you know what a jake is? For example, a younger a younger turkey, that's part as part of it, run him through Tony like the gam and of turkeys he's gonna run into out there. I mean, this is going to be an important lesson here. Any any bird with a beard on his chest, even if if it's a two inch beard like a Jake or a eleven inch just hog swinging away there. Shoot him in the face it. If it doesn't have a beard, don't shoot it in the face. On it and pay attention. So I Ben, I don't know if you know this about me, but I am a huge advocate of shooting jake's. I like that. I like the way you put it. I don't mind a good Jake or a Jake shot or two. You're like, I'm a huge advocate of it, Please explain it. I don't like. I'm I'm really I've spent a lot of time playing in this this big deer world, and I'm pretty burned out on the turkey or I mean on the trophy thing, and I just don't think it has a place in the turkey world, especially for new hunters. And if you if you have a Jake come in, or a couple of Jakes come in, they should be on the menu, buddy, you should be. You should be more worried about putting that beat or that that red dot right where it needs to go and killing them than worrying about turkey trophy size. Yeah, well, I'm I'm I'm the guy who's trying to kill ten turkeys a year just to the just to augment or replace our white meat consumption in my house by quest of my wife. So I I don't think she cares Jake or Tom. You you you said that as if, as if it's like a controversial or opinion. Is the reason that maybe people would disagree with you, is that for like conservation reasons or or or just like trophy reasons. It's just it's just a trophy thing. Like And I will say that part of the disdain for shooting Jake's for that some people have is because some of them don't play the strut gobble game very well. And so you get more drive bys with with just little flocks of Jake's that aren't really strutting and giving you the show. And so it's just not as fun. You don't, you don't really. But at the same time, those people aren't passing up three year old birds that aren't strutt in either like that. But you get you get less Jakes that play the you know, the fewer Jakes that play the fun game, but you do get some of them that come in full strut and fighting and attacking. And you know, but even even if you get the quietest, most timid, shy Jake ever and he he's just walking by your decoys. I strongly urge you to shoot him in the face. Yeah, I'll probably be urging you to do the same. Um. But just to be clear, like Jake is an immature one year old male turkey. That's what we're talking about here. Uh. And we we then we would talk about like in our vernacular Tony, we would normally say like two year old bird, where we know this is an immature, immature male, but he is graduated from Jake to to Tom. He's just a two year old turkey acts a whole lot different than a three year old and four year old Tom. You want to run him through that a little bit done? Uh? Yeah, I would say, don't worry about that, um, because yeah, you're not gonna be able to tell um. You know, two year olds are dream birds because they they look like big, mature birds, you know, I mean a lot of them are. They're pretty heavy, and they're they're sporting pretty good beards, but they're just a little more suicidal. A lot of times they're they're the birds a lot of times that will get booted out of the bigger flock at ten in the morning or noon and they go out cruising and they're they're all about fighting Jake's and they're the ones that put on a great show and they're awesome to kill. But they're different than you know, an old bird, you know, a big hooks bird bird there, especially on public land, they're they're a little bit different and you you kind of can tell sometimes when you watch them, especially if there's some interaction with other birds or some some hens, then then you can see that a little bit more of a dominance thing going on, and you can see who sort of sort of running the show. And that's super fun. But that's just uh, that's just like a luck of the draw thing. If you if you get to witness that, you know, like if you have a bird come into as a beard swinging, I would not I would recommend not thinking about how old he probably is and thinking about how delicious he's gonna be if you shoot him in the face. Got it. That's why that's why Tony's here, boys and girls. He's here to give you the real. Real is one thing I would just say identifiers if just so you know, uh, the tail fan, the central tail feathers. I guess we'll call him. I don't know how many tail feathers exactly, is it? You know, like four four? Yeah, four tails. We'll just call him the central tail feathers and hiss Fan will stick up about two or three inches above the rest. And that's just because during during their first summer at turkey, jake will malt and lose most of its feathers besides the beard and then besides those central tail feathers, so they stick up a little bit higher. Um. So that's how you'll see it when they're when they're trying to strut or acting like, acting like they're actual gobbler. I don't I'm right there with you. Had a buddy who I was hunting with, teaching a little bit of turkey hunting last year here locally. We didn't do a whole lot hunt together. We went out a couple of mornings and he ended up shooting a jake and was and kind of say, oh, I shout at turkey, like you shot at turkey too, that's awesome. He's like, yeah, I was just a jake. I said, oh yeah, I don't care. Don't don't say that, man, like just you filled your tag. That is that is, do not look down upon filling your tag in that way. So agree, agree on that, Tony. Yeah, it's way more satisfying to make that first really good shot than to care about you know, how big they are there there? You go, all right, well, what's what I mean? What else Tony? We can talk about call. I don't want to talk about calling as much one because I'll be doing most of it, if not all of it. And um, I just really want fill you to focus on unless you're interested in phil it or maybe you have some questions but we've gotten you know, almost forty five minutes into a conversation. Uh, let's just do it that way, Philly. Any questions that that you want to ask you anything like, particularly that you're nervous about excited about. Um, you think we might be full of ship on No, I'm not. I would never accuse accuse you being foolish it since I I know absolutely nothing. So I'm just here to to to listen. Um. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I don't like it because it sounds like Ben, you've you've thought this out, you thought our game plan out more than you have relayed to me. So that that makes me, that makes me feel feel better. I'm just here. I think I told I mentioned this briefly before. I I think you you really want me to have like a successful hunt. You you want me to shoot to shoot a turkey. Obviously I would like to shoot a turkey, but I won't be disappointed if if if I don't. Is it is it foolish of me to like not want you to hand this to me on a silver platter? Or and is it foolish of me to think that that that's even a possibility because it's a good Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up because you said this to me before, and it's something that it's worth talking about, right that You're like, I don't want to be at some level, I am going to be the arbor over your experience. I'm gonna take you out and show you either how I do it or how I'd want to do it, and then give you that one fairly limited approach to turkey hunting, because there's not just one way to do any turkey hunt or to attack any scenario. I mean, you could do uh, the hunt we're gonna do, you could probably do it about ten or fifteen different ways depending on how much you know what you valued from a turkey hunt. Um, But I think I don't know what you think about this, Tony. But the way I look at that is there is just killing a turkey in and of itself comes with so many challenges. Just getting a turkey within range and then pulling the trigger on it and having it fall right there. Well, you know, I don't know how many turkeys I've killed, but every time I do it, my first thought or my first emotion is is generally a sense of relief because I understand how hard it is to do. Even if we do it every year, and even if every once in a while we run into a bird that just seems like the dumbest animal to ever walk on two feet, Even if that happens, you still know that a lot of things have to go right to get that burden and to kill it. So I would just say that, like wanting a challenge, is is understandable, but there's enough challenge and just getting out into the woods, understanding the turkey, having it come in, put the put that red dot on the right spot, and pulling the trigger and killing it. Um, I think that's that's a hell of a challenge, And it's also kind of like the the initial barrier to get over so you can understand how do I feel when I killed it? How did I feel when I ate it? Because those are generally going to be the drivers to have you understand the activity, but then push you forward to to want to do it again. And so that's just how I think of it. But I do understand some I say, and I don't want you know, is it really hunting if you just take me out in the woods and sit me down against the tree and hand me a shotgun, um and do some calling and a turkey comes walking in? Is that really hunting? Did I learn anything? I guess I would say, yes, you got any thoughts on that? Tony? Oh? Yeah? Man? So his fill your concerns are spot on there. And Ben, you're falling into the same trap I always fall in, where I want it so bad for them, but I, like I, I tend to sort of put the blinders on and forget there's a whole bunch of other stuff going on out there. And so it sounds like fil from your position, it sounds like it's going to be a lock, but it won't be I guess it won't be as easy as it probably sounds, even even have some having somebody really kind of set it up for you. And the thing that it's like kind of easy to forget about is there's literally no time other than maybe September where it's more badass to be out in the woods at sunrise than it is in you know, late April, early May. Like it's it's freaking awesome out there. You never regret it because there's so much to see and the songbirds of coming back up, and it's just it's a wild experience. And so it's it's more than just like getting out there and getting over the hurdle of the first bird. But like Ben is Ben is in that mode because that's what we do when we take people out. But you'll see that there's a lot more to it. So it's like it's easy to get worried about, like, oh, is this gonna be too easy? And you could yeah, it doesn't sound like your situation, but you could set up turkey hunts to be so easy that they weren't satisfying. This is that's not going to be this one, Like you're you're you're probably gonna work at it a little bit and probably fail some and and see how it really goes. And and what I would say to on that is go into it with the idea that you want to see how this stuff goes, not not just like show up and you know, be told what to do, but get out there and scout a little bit and build in like earn this a little bit. Like that's that's what I'm trying to get my little girls to do it. When we go out, we put out blinds or we scout, it's like, I just want them to see this process is more then when I take them out there in the morning on opening morning and we've got the birds roosted and the decoys out, everything is set up really well, like there's a lot to it, and that's what makes it fun. Yeah, And that the it's I think the satisfaction and all that compounds with the more work and time you put into thinking about it. You know, if you were to if I were to just say, hey, Phil, you want to go hunt in tomorrow morning and we hadn't talked about it previously at all, I'm like, Okay, well, um, well you gotta take your hund of safety course. You get that Nope, all right, well we gotta do that. And I think, what the way that you become legal in the sense of hunting and the way that you've had to do it makes you think about it a little bit more anyway. But then when you get to the actual act of it, it's all the satisfaction of the act is compounded by how much work you put into it, how much thinking you do, and how much critical thought. Um, that starts to become you know, part of the game for you. So I mean it, I guess you just get out there and it'll be part. I just want to enjoy myself and and enjoy this morning in nature or this day out walking around in the woods. I want to focus in on learning this craft because it is a craft, uh, and learning this animal, and then once it happens, I want to focus in on like, what did I enjoy? Why is this fulfilling for me? Is it? Maybe it's not? Um? And then you go home and you cook it for your family and and decide if that part is ultimately the most fulfilling part for you. So it's it's it's a ton I mean, you know, we've had people on here that hunt of their entire lives that are still talking about, uh, particularly there why and what they do and how they approach things. Um so there's certainly not one way to do it, that's for sure. That summing up film, I'm trying to find this quote from David Peterson from Heart's Blood, such a good quote. Um any other what what do you think about that? Phil? Is that enough? You feel like we're gonna I'm gonna just be so I'm because I'm Tony's right, I'm gonna be so driven to get you a turkey. I'm gonna forget some stuff that I probably should have told you or forget. Well, when we're actually in the field, Ben, I'll make sure to ask questions. I think that's where most of my questions are gonna pop up. Like I'm sure you're gonna you're gonna start doing something calling a certain way, We're gonna be looking at a certain direction, walking a certain way, walking a certain direction, and if you I'll make sure to be like, well, what is the purpose of this activity that we're doing? Why? Why are you doing this? Why are we doing this at this moment? Because I think that's where most of my learning is going to be done. It's just questions that I haven't really thought of yet that I'm sure I will once the activity is is taking place. Yeah, I'm with you. It's it's a I'll scare I'll scare all the birds away with my questions. Ben, is that a jake? I can't see its tail feathers, but I I think that is too. Like when it's with your with your kids, you have an understanding of who that person is, and you know your role as a father um or if you're with your wife and your role as a husband. When when where somebody you know? This is for us a year where hopefully a lot of listeners of this podcast and a lot of people that are joining us are looking to find someone to mentor are looking to find someone to take out. And a lot of doing that is is taking the time to learn the person, to ask them questions, to understand what they're really trying to get out of the damn thing, and then and work with them on that um because when you're out there, you kind of have to have a mutual understanding because tricky hunting can be really boring if if the person that is the mentor doesn't understand what the mentee is trying to get out of the whole thing um or or what they're trying to explore. And I think you find that, Tony. That's often you can kind of get yourself twisted up if you don't, you know, have that understanding and have some empathy going into it all big time. And the biggest problem you have if you're a mentor is just ignoring the needs of whoever you're taking out. You know, if you're if you're looking beyond that, you know might might like when you when you mentioned taking my wife out, I mean we the first two times we turkey hunting together, we got as close to divorce as we've ever gotten. It was horrible, and part of it was because I cared so much and she didn't hardly care at all. She's like, just that sounds like us. But I'll tell you what. We started having fun when I just finally said, Okay, she wants to hunt a couple of times this season. She wants to hear some stuff, see some stuff, and just be comfortable. And I just had to back off the gas and go, Okay, this isn't about me going guerrilla warfare on a dumb bird. This is about her experience, and you know, she was right like it it was better for her to to hunt her way, you know what I mean. You still gotta push a little bit because you gotta. You still want some success. And if you know what you're doing and they don't like you, gotta you know, you gotta lean into that a little bit. But it's I've seen the same thing with so many of the people I've taken out where it's if if they're digging it, you can tell, and if they're if they're kind of suffering through it. For you, you can tell if you're if you're honest about it and you really want them to just be into it. So if it means cutting down, you know, at nine o'clock in the morning, versus staying out there all day, like it's kind of what you have to do, it sucks if you're really driven, but it's just the way it is. Yeah, we talked about that a lot here where even for turkey hunting, I have a way that I a cadence in my life where turkey onning becomes important. It's right around I say a Happy New Year, and then I start thinking about turkeys immediately January two, I'm thinking about turkeys. I'm like, wow, I'm ice fishing, I'm thinking about turkeys, and that's yeah, that's me. Is that you, Tony? Are you earlier that? No? No, no, because that's when dear season ends and I start getting It's part of the reason I scout turkeys so much. I don't really need to, just I just it's like something to do, Like you're you're kind of in the realm of just getting ready for this thing that I love so much. And you know, Ben, you know this like it, this is what phil really pay attention to this. You know, I'm forty years old and I'm starting to look at this stuff like how many turkey seasons do I have left? Like how many elk seasons do I have left? And like you, especially with my little girls getting a little bit older, I'm like painfully aware that there's only so many aprils and maize that I can get out here and do this in so many states I'm gonna hunt and I just want I want to like enjoy it as much as possible. And it's it seems stupid, you know, because hopefully I have a whole bunch left. But you just you become like acutely aware of how fleeting turkey season is. If you if you really love turkey hunting, it doesn't last long and then you're stuck waiting for another year. Yeah. Yeah, because I desperately want Phil in this case to be as into it as I am, Like I just he has been so it's taken me so long to get him to this point. I have so desperate for Phil to be like reading the tenth Legion and go like, oh my gosh, because I and that's one thing is as I'll return to get to so many people that listen to podcasts taking out new hunters this year. When you when you create something in your head, like I've I've created hunting work to me, I'm not the best hunter in the world, but I love it. I think about it almost all the time, Like, yeah, I watched sports, Yes, I do other things, but mostly all the time I'm thinking about hunting. Like and it goes as we were talking about in Cadences Yearly Cadence, I get to thinking about turkeys, and I get thinking about tag applications. Then I get to scouting turkeys, as Tony said, Wait, I'm glad you said that, because I scout Turkey's way, way more than I need to, because it's that time of year there's not nothing else to do, and you want to get outside and you're obsessed with it, and you just you're like, yep, they're still there, Yep, but they're still there, windering flock, all right, They're still in the same field there in every morning. Um. But but I think one of the challenges here, and this is something that that I think people often stumble on, is is exactly what we've been talking about, which is wanting I want Phil to kind of experience turkey hunting the way I have or the way I do through that lens, because I think it would lead to a certain type of passion that is has like gets me up in the morning. Uh, and I want to say it's changed my life, but kind of has. Um. But they're like putting that pressure on him, or putting that pressure on any mentee or somebody you're taking out in the woods is a little tough to say, Like I want you to understand and love this the way I do. It's really just like I want you to come with me and get out of it what you're going to get out of it, and if you happen to start if you happen to want to read the Tenth Legion every year twice a year by the end of March. Um, okay, great man, because that's what I do. But you don't have to. And yeh. I think sometimes we set up these kind of weird barriers around taking new people hunting because you want to assign to them your own experiences. Yeah, and sometimes it doesn't work very well. Yeah, I've never I can't remember ever having I do remember one turgy hunt in Florida where I was sitting in that I was we're I was trying to get my first Grand Slam, and I was all into this. I think I was explaining what a grand Slam is, um, why it was important to get my first. And we had a young lady along with us who just had never hunted before. And I just never I wasn't even care. I didn't even care she was there. I just I was trying to get my turkey and and she was with us, but I didn't know, you know, I didn't bring her along. She wasn't my mentee or anything like that. She was just with us. And she asked if she could come. I absolutely, you know, come sitting the blind with us, and I don't even think we we told her like, this is what a turkey does, this is what you might see. We she just sat there and we worked a bird. He came in, uh, he didn't come into range, and then he walked away. And later on she was like, I didn't. I don't understand why you guys were so excited about what happened this morning, Like, I don't. I thought that was like I've seen turkeys and fields before. I don't understand why we spent so long talking about that afterwards. And I just thought, well, no, wonder we just like she just came and we didn't even a dress that she was there, or talk her through any of the things. I was so dialed in that I just didn't. I didn't think of it. Um, So I guess that's a pitfall Tony. Uh. Yeah, there are times when you should just be hunting by yourself. Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah, yes, you have to. Expectations are an important part of hunting, that's for sure, As as we talked about with trophy hunting and shoot every j QC, like the expectations kind of drive everything else, you know, it drives your perspective, and it drives the you know, your satisfaction at the end of the day, or you wanted you want to go back. Definitely, And I will say this on that note, I will be extremely disappointed in Phil if he doesn't become a lifelong turkey hunter out of this. I know. I mean, I think there's thousands of THHC listeners. We've started a cult and they and we have. If you don't know this, Tony, we have a I think we have forty seven state chapters of our podcast. They all have leaders, they're all they all have are organizing and and we're organizing around mentor hunts. That's that's basically what we're doing. So, uh, Phil is kind of like what would you call yourself? Phil? You're like, you're not necessarily the mascot per se. You're way more important than that. You're like a deity within the THHC listener. Don't like that? You don't like that. It feels like there's a lot of a lot of space between mascot and deity. Yeah, middle ground there, Ben all right, Well, you're well respected within within the THC community, so people are rooting for you. They are openly rooting for this to happen, and have been for some years. We've made them wait for a long time for this, So no pressure, but it's a it's a bit of a different situation than just taking anybody, any normal personnel on a on a hunt that's not going to be followed and recorded. Yeah, well, I do feel that encouragement and and and that that sort of pressure, but it's not it's honestly not really have any any effect on me, which I think is which I think is good. I mean, I guess it's not having a negative effect on me. How's that been. That's good. That's good. Good, That's what we would want. Man. I got a lot of support out there, and so we hope I hope this health a little bit, just so you can hear a little bit of the um the way this might go, and a little bit of the thought processes. Any last questions for Tony while he's here, Phil before we let him go. No, No, I mean I'm trying to. I'm I'm trying. I'm trying to think if I have anything anything lingering that is kind of like something to ask before I actually get out there and experience it. Um the best best Turkey dish Tony oh Man. Well, I mentioned seventeen times on this podcast that I have twin nine year old and so we are really big. That's going to be embarrassing, but we are really big into uh, turkey nuggets. Right now that I have heard that, you know, you shouldn't be embarrassed because I've heard that from so many people. Now that's just kind of a staple, like a go to especially with people with and it's and I do have two kids, so I can imagine that'll be popular. So good, Yeah, so good. And go out and you can go out and get yourself like the Chick fil A sauces if you want you get a little sauce, you know, a selection of sauces for the young young lads. Um, that would be interesting. But yeah, I I am. It's either turkey nuggets or everyone listens to this show will know that I'm a big fan of turkey. Cordon Blue. That's a that's a real fancy It's not really fancy. It's got cheese inside of it's not fancy. It's got it's got a French name, so it sounds fancy. Yeah, but it's really like cheese and ham inside. It's not really like it's it's more redneck than it sounds in name. It's delicious though it is it is, but I would say turkey nuggets like, let's not let's celebrate turkey nuggets. In fact, we're probably gonna put that in the title of this podcast to sell it ration of turkey nuggets because it because they are. You get your some dipping sauce, you get the right spice combinations, and it is just there's nothing better. Hashtag normalized turkey nuggets. We'll Mike, we will make some merch hashtag hashtag turkey nuggets. Um, it's a well, that's a good place. And Tony, thank you for joining us. And you can now find Tony very soon. We haven't really put let the cat out of completely out of bad yet, but but very soon Tony will be available for you to listen to. You'll be let's just say that you'll be able to listen to Tony uh coming soon on a podcast near you. About that. That's a perfect way to put that perfect I'll do my best. Well, thanks Tony, and keep us updated. I am I'm gonna go and finish pack and for for Texas and I'll keep both you gentlemen, updated on our success or failure. And really I feel I see all my turkey hunting from now until we hit the field together as a training so I can do my best for you. I can be in tip top turkey calling shape for you, and um, I'm gonna give you my absolute level best effort out there. Okay, I promise alright, same same for me. All right, that's a dedication, all right, Tony, thank you man. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks guy. That's it. That's all. Another episode in the books can't fit. We can't do any any of this without actually acknowledging kay La Ray. This is our first episode with with the brand new music as just a baked in thing that we do from in the future for this great podcast. So um, thanks to Tony Peterson, thanks to Philip engineer. Philip had to go run off and record a mediator podcast Steve Ronella, so that's what he's doing right now. So it's just me flying solo for the wrap up here. But I'll say I am excited about Turkey season. I'm heading to Texas to go try to kill a couple of birds and I'll be back. As we were talking about in our interview with Tony uh to try to kill a bunch more birds and try to get to my magic number ten for the season to provide all the meat that we need for my family here. Um, so I'm excited about that. This is it. This is the time go enjoy the outdoors. We've we've spent a lot of time on this podcast over the last couple of months talking about controversial topics, talking about hunting contests and black bears being banned and all the things that I think are critical. But it could be a good time to enjoy spring. Take a break, think about turkeys, read the tenth Legion, and mentally prepare yourself and get yourself out in the woods. It's turkey season. Let's focus on that. Will be back next week. We're gonna have an update for you on our THHC regional chapters and state chapters that are happening out there. If you want to joe in one of those chapters, go to Facebook and search for th HC and the state that you're in, shooting an email at th h C at the media dot com if you can't find those state chapters. Were continually working on the best way for you to be able to be plugged into what's happening on a state by state level with this podcast, with our new group. Shout out to Nuri Hong, Shout out to Luke Ree's and our leaders, all of you that are leading th HC into the future. We'll keep it on going. We'll see you next week. Bye bye, Clean your gun and turn your bowl. Where the hun collected show and calling Hunters new and all the hunt collect show, working back and shuttle or working man in Hane, we collregate nights the Overton Lane. I'm the land. We're focused. We're just living for searching, dreaming of a fire and as Celtic Gilburn Bowie ain't coming by town. It's Golden Lane taking it slow. So weeks she straight clean your gun to your bowl, Where the hunt clicked shown, callin Hunters new and old. Ain't no cold, I'm told