00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, I'm Casey and I'm Tyler, and this is the elk Hunting series from the Element podcast. If you want to get on ELK, it helps to hang with dudes that no elk and that ain't us. But luckily the dudes that no elk have cell phones and we call them up. So, whether you're a veteran of September or you're just cutting your eybories in the elk wood said, you're gonna hear something here that will help you get the full draw of this fall. If you find this podcast help, We'll pop that subscribe button and go check out our elk hunting playlist on YouTube. Now let's rock and roll, all right, y'all. On the show tonight, we've got Steve Chapel with Elk camp TV. Steve, what's happening in your world right now? Man? Man, I tell you I am just chomping at the bit to get started elk hunting this fall. I know the big bulls are shed and velvet right now, and I just got back from scouting in Arizona and the bulls are really big this year, so I cannot wait to get out there and start hunting them. That's cool, so you have quite a few. Um are quite a bit of moisture this year. You know, we did early on when it was important for antler growth, like in the winter and spring, and so the bulls really did grow giant antlers. But we've had a relatively dry summer. UM. You bulls are still giant, but it's paused is dryness and not much water in the ponds. It's mostly limited to drinkers and what we call game and fish strict tanks. So we're hoping for some monsoons before we hit September. UM. But I think it'll be great either way and we'll roll with it have a good time. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Kind of sounds like standard year for elk in the desert southwest. Is that kind of what you can bet on, is you know, spring moisture and then a dry summer and then hopefully the months it's hitting pretty soon so they grow out good tops. Yeah. Absolutely, that's kind of how it goes down. And I'm is thankful that we've got great antler growth this year because it gets you excited when you see all these big bulls on your trail cameras to know what's out there potentially Yeah, Yeah, that's cool. So let's talk about that some man. Um. I've done a whole lot of artc hunting in Colorado and then last year I was lucky enough to draw a Healer Wilderness tag and went on that hunt. But either way, trail cameras are never They've never been a part of my game when it comes to Elk County. And I know that you know the country that you're in down there a lot, at least you know where where you've kind of made your living down there, Like that's a huge deal for y'all right, you know, I'll say it this way, Casey, I I really UM use trail cameras mostly it's just a barometer to gauge the antler growth from the bull drop for that year. Yeah, I don't necessarily use them for a tactical advantage, if you will, UM, I can honestly say this in honesty, I have never used intel from a trail came to kill and Elk directly. Um. These bulls really sort around and move from where they summer to where to where they rut um and and really my thing is just calling them in and having a great time doing that. That's kind of my Forte known for. So I don't want to be stuck just with checking trail cameras and trying to base a couple of particular bulls. I say, we're gonna go out, We're gonna call in a lot of bulls, and when that right one walks in, that will shoot him. Um. I know there's a lot of you know, differing opinions on trail cameras. Um. I mainly just like to use them for the enjoyment of seeing the animals. I like to run them on video modes. See these elk in there, you know, natural environment, and uh, watch how nasty the bulls are, even when they're in velvet towards each always that order going on. It's amazing. Yeah, that's cool, man. So, UM, tell us a little about like where you're at in the elk hunting world down there, and like the dynamic of things. You know, you put a lot of emphasis on antlers, and that's because where you're at is a hot trophy potential steak. Correct. Yeah, And with that does come some press pressure. And I always tell guys that I'm in a guy. Do you know the first thing I'll say to you, to you as a hunter is if we go out there and we hunt without pressuring ourselves up and have a good time together and hunt us a team and hunt us friends, I promise you good things will happen for us. It's when we hang the whole hunt on the score of the animal and the success of it on the score. I feel like that's when you feel pressured up and you don't do as well. Um, So I like to take that pressure off right away. Sure, I feel pressured within myself, and I'm I'm a competitive person, okay, So I don't want to add that on to the hunt anymore that than it's already there. And uh, you know, most guys that I hunt with, they're not saying all of you know, four hundred bulls what I'm looking for, And if we don't get that, I'm disappointed. I'm usually the one that's more disappointed in myself, to be honest with you, pressure on myself, But um, it is fun. And I decided a long time ago that I would rather hunt in a state like Arizona, where the bulls are big like that, than to hunt myself elsewhere. You know, we're hunting small bulls and in rough terrain and all of that Arizona is just incredible. I gotta say, yeah, it's it's a pretty neat place. I've only been there fishing, so I've never been there to hunt, but i've you know, we've I've done. Tyler and I actually went together and went and fished the Black River, uh there in the White Mountains, and uh, you know, it's just a beautiful place. Cool, just cool, just I don't know, it's so unique. You think of the desert Southwest if you've never been there, it's like this is kind of monotonous, kind of hilly, but desert place, and it's just not the case. You know. There's so many um intricacies to each terrain in each habitat, and it just seems like a really cool place to to live. How long have you been down there? Yeah? So I grew up in southern Colorado, That's where I was born. I went down there to go to college, actually to Arizona. I went to college and Prescott there's where I started out. I played baseball at Yavapai College. They're actually pitched on the same team with Kurt Shilling. I don't know, sweet, I'm sure a lot of people know who Kurt Shilling. Is, but yeah, it was pretty cool to play on that team. We had a great team that year, and that's where I met my wife, who I eventually married, and uh yeah, that's how it all got started, as me going down there to go to college, and so I love Arizona, love guiding down there. I also guide in southern Colorado with my dad on private land there, so it's kind of cool. I have the best of both worlds. I get a guide in Arizona during the rut on you know, the public land, these big giant national forests, and then in southern Colorado we've got this private land and we're able to hunt there. It's wild, free ranging elk, but kind of the best of two different worlds. I guess you could say, yeah, man, that's that's very cool. So did you grow up like with the guiding influence around? Was your daddy god when you were a kid? You know, he wasn't until I got into my early twenties, but he was always a hunter. And I seriously grew up in the country on on dirt roads, uh the middle of nowhere. I was this. I was this kid who got up and went out with my bb gun and then graduated to a pelic gun in two and so on. So you know, hunting was my thing in my life. And you know the first time I got the big game hunt and elk hunt, I was just totally hooked and addicted to it. I knew it's something that I had to do every year for the rest of my life. So that's cool. So you know, if you spent some time with red ridder and whatnot, I know you have some experience with this, but would you rather have to eat a marmot or a pine squirrel? Really? Man, marks looks so fat and nice, but I guess they just not not appetizing, huh. Just the look of him that it looks like a mountain beaver or song To me, I think it's like a mountain doughnut. Oh that that's cool, man. So tell us a little bit about um. Maybe since you grew up in southern Colorado, you know very um for all intents and purposes, a lush area, you know, a place you're gonna have quite a bit of moisture. Um. You know, some high country UM. And then hunting in Arizona is is gonna be quite a bit different, right, I Mean it's very moisture dependent like you were saying earlier, I mean even dependent so much on human Um, I don't interference, for lack of a better word, riter or help to have water for those elk to exist down there. Like what is that? Like? Yeah, you're you're very right about Arizona. I mean, where are you guys fished in the White Mountains. Those are higher elevation units. There's more natural water there, so you know, elk can live there naturally without you know, human water sources in that part of the state. However, in the north central part of the state and the northwest part of the state, you're exactly right. Without those man made water sources and those game and fish trick tanks that basically sustain those elk during the drier parts of the year, they're just really couldn't be elk there, because that's one thing about elk, they have to have water that they're not like meal deer and you know, can go without water for long periods of time. Um. And then in Southern Colorado, it kind of depends on where you're at. Within Southern Colorado, Like where we're hunting there is very semi arad It's it's got a similar climate to Arizona. UM. You know, maybe twelve to fifteen inches of annual precipitation, so it's pretty dry. Then we can look up and see, you know, bit the big San Juan Mountains, UM, where again you've got you know, nine, ten, eleven, twelve foot thousand elevations, and you do have springs and seeps and creeks and rivers and natural water sources where the elk are sustained by. So um. Yeah, it is very diverse down here in the Southwest, like you said earlier, UM, and yeah, you do have everything from those alipine uh climates and vegetation you know, down to real plains Cedar Pinion and even lower stage flats down the six thousand foot elevations. Yeah. So well that said, you know, how much time and you're a guy who who is very good at calling, how how much time have you spent hunting water holes? And did you grow up doing that in Colorado at all? I can say this, UM, I've guided in Arizona for a little over twenty years now, and I've had one hunter that I've personally guided in all those years kill a bowl out of water source. All the rest of them have been on call ins um. And I will say that one hunter, he was from Colorado. He was one of the most very capable physical hunters I've ever guided. So he we did call some bulls in on the hunt. It just didn't happen to work out, um as far as shot angles and all of that for him to kill a bowl on a call in. Um. But yeah, he was. He was the only guy back in two thousand and eight, and uh, all of the other ones have been on really fun dramatic call in so yeah. So so the shot angles where a problem? What shot angles are you talking about that gave him fits? Yeah, mostly quartering on for the bull coming in from a direction that wasn't anticipated. That type of thing. Um. I really appreciate guys who don't take quartering on shots. And I do talk to my hunters, and you know, I tell them that if you release an elk on an arrow, I should say an arrow on an elk, that's not perfect. Your nightmare has just begun. As you guys probably know youself. If you hit them, if you hit them perfectly and double lung shoot them, I mean they're like a lamb. They will they lay down and die fast. If you make marginal or poor hit on them. They're they're like a dinosaur here you are not going to find um. So, yeah, I really encourage guys to take good shot angles. Um. You know, I will say that in the right situation, if it's if it's super close and and open. You know, I'm not completely opposed to frontal shots, but again at close range, um, and and putting the arrow in the right spot. But yeah, that quartering two shot is a nightmare in the making. How close and and what's the spot on a on the frontal? The best you can explain it with, you know, out having a visual Yeah, I kind of say twenty five yards and end, twenty five yards and end, And I want that help to be either standing or maybe just slowly still walking forward at you. You know, you don't want to take a moving shot when they're walking broadside to you. But if they're moving towards you and walking slowly, and I think a lot of guys think the sweet spot is down lower in the brisket area. UM, I believe that that sweet spot is up there kind of in the dark the base of the neck nain where you still have that dark neck main color, So that that arrow is going straight into the lungs and into the vitals at the right. You don't want to do too low and hit that brisket area, especially if you or have any downward angle to your shot at all. You know, I think that's something that you really have to consider too whenever you're taking that frontal You know, if you're on an even plane, you know you're you're good, especially even on the lower end of it. But you know, if you're shooting downhill at all, or that elk has his head you know, hung low. Yeah, I can definitely see a world where you just end up just clipping meat and you know he's a bugle In the next day. I should also say, you know, I talked about the elk if he's moving slowly towards you. The reason I say that is because I think a frontal shot at an alerted elk, if that elk is stopped and he's alerted to something, it's up and you release that arrow, he can whirl and it can cause you know, a bad hit. So I would take that, you know, slowly moving unaware shot than than an elk that's alerted. I think that can that can be a bad shot. That's a that's a guy's got to be aware of the situation. Yeah, that's a good tip, man. I I actually shot hit a bull high on the shoulder last year, which is a terrible thing to happen, um, but he was alert at twenty two yards and um, he'd you know, duked air like a whitetail. You know. It was very surprising. I've never had one do that before, you know. And and you know, he dropped probably four inches or so, which was the difference in you know, hitting double a long and not it was it was a terrible thing, but he was fine. You know, you know how it goes. They're pretty resilient. But do you still hate to do it? But uh, I've kind of taken a well, not in a long path comparatively. You know, I've hunted elk for off and on for eight or nine years, and originally started out with my white tail you know, lightweight arrows, and um actually killed elk with with one of those, and it was fine because it was you know, a lethal hit. Um. But I've had some stuff happened both with hits and then just you know, deflections and different things like that that have really led me to shooting a heavy arrow and UH good fixed played broadhead. We I shoot the uh the Day six pairing, you know, with Day six arrows and and those uh well made broadheads. UM. Do you kind of put restrictions on guys or at least talk to guys about what their arrows set up should be for elk hunting? Yeah? I do talk to him. I mean I don't totally dictated to him, but I especially asked him, you know, if at all possible to shoot a fixed blade broad head like you say. Um. You know, I'm not sponsored by any of these companies, but I will say I've seen incredible results like with G five mon Tech UM G five Striker. I believe it is re blade that's an awesome head. UM have had very good success with the Whackham's UM and and also Muzzies and you know slick tricks. UM. I just really like those cut on contact, very well put together heads. And I think if they're they're one piece, I mean that that's even better if you can get good flight and you tune your bow well with it. They probably the best fastest kill I've ever seen on a elk was a bowl that I called across Uh. He was he was on the wrong side of the fence. I called him on the right side of the fence. He was he uh and came onto our side of the fence, and my honor shot him and that bowl was dead within thirty seconds with a G five mom tech man. Smoke City's what we like to call. That gets me hot man, that's cool. Um, So do you find that elk kids in the heart versus like a double lung which is the better shot? You know? I know it's like it's hard to choose which one you're going to make. You know, you're really just trying to hit vitals. But when you you know you've had a lot of experience with being shot, what does it seem like is the more advantageous shot? Man, I don't know that I would really know that, to be honest with you, I like double lung shot. I like I tell my guys, I like that shot between a third and a half and halfway up the body height wise helk him to air not towards the shoulder, because I've hit some milk personally in the shoulder and I kind of gravitate to that. So I tell guys, man, air back like four or five inches behind that shoulder and make that be your spot. Um, because that shoulder hit is is just not good. Again, I like that third a halfway up the body and uh, you know, four or five inches behind the shoulder to me is the sweet spot. Yeah, I guess above the heart. Yeah, and realistically, uh, not to downplay the difficulty of killing a elk man, he means, but they have a large vital area compared to other stuff. I mean, you're shooting it, you know, a five gallon bucket are bigger, you know, So like you're saying, you you don't have to really crowd the shoulder too much, especially if you you know, have a decently close shot in and uh, you know, you feel very confident to be able to hit him in the vitals. You know, it makes sense for sure. Yeah, I completely agree with that. Yeah. So from what I've seen of of where y'all hunting, I'm sure there's more that I haven't seen, But you do a lot of stuff in the P and J country, Is that correct? You know? I kind of hunt both. If I hunt pine country, I like it to have a little bit of vegetation, a little undergrowth, and not just be in pines. I'll hunt both what you're You're correct, p JA country is very good, especially for archery hunting, because you can get in tight and even on bulls with cows, you can get tight to them because the cows can't look and see you approaching. And that's what I like about p J country is that you can get the wind right aggressively move in and get close to bulls and uh, you know, work them without them potentially picking up on you on the approach. Yeah. Sure, so, I think one of my big questions on that because I've never really hunted that stuff. I did a little bit, you know, last season in New Mexico, but most of it was pinion counter, you know, big pot of rosa pines. I mean, sorry, Um, I feel like in P and J you could really set yourself up. Um. I don't know if you could say for failures, but for some difficulties because uh, you might end up wearing bulls on top of you before you know it. Um, you know with I mean, I've seen guys on TV before or who calling bulls and they're like at five yards all of a sudden, walking pretty briskly, and then they do a cow called to stop him and he freaks out, you know, so like, um, how do you how do you kind of play that to make sure that you have you know, a you know, you want the close of course, but a realistic shot distance of like that you know, really comfortable yard top shot. Yeah. He pick and set good setups is everything. And like you say, I'm definitely not above having help come in and spoil things, especially smaller bulls that are not you know, my dream is a bull that's vocal and it's responding well to the calls, and then you can really keep tabs on where he's at and how he's approaching. And I really try to place my hunters to where they have a you know, a good size opening in front of them, where that elk is gonna walk across and they're gonna have a good shot angle. And then I'm gonna drop back and I'm gonna try to call that bull to the up wind side of my hunter and and bring him by for that broadside opportunity. And that doesn't even have any idea that that hunters even in the world. Um, And that can even happen too. I can be calling and I can have a silent like a spike or a Raghorn come in on me and blow the set up as well. So again I had that happen. Uh you know enough times that I mentioned it here. Um. But yeah, picking good setups is the key because if you pick a setup where you just have a little alley, a little opening and that bulk, especially if you're calling for yourself, UM, they're gonna come in head on usually and they're gonna stop and look, and when they don't see what they want, they're gonna you know, get out of there. Sometimes you'll have an opportunity as they're moving away at a quartering away shot. So a guy needs to be aware of that. Um. But I always try to pick set ups where there's plenty of shooting opportunity. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Do you ever use a decoy in those scenarios where they really looking for something? You know? I do? I have really become believer in those decoys. I've again I'm not sponsored by this company, but I've had incredible success with that Montana decoy. Um Eichler Elk is what it's called eichler Um, and I've also seen I haven't tried it personally, but I've seen really good results with that ultimate predator decoy can mount on a bow. Um. It is amazing guys, and I'm sure you've probably seen this with your hunting, how those decoys can completely do the animal you're hunting. Um. I've literally with that Montana decoy, i can be in the wide open with me, my hunter and a cameraman and I've had a hundred a hundred and fifty elk in front of me and be moving in on them in clear view and they absolutely don't have a clue about what's going on because of that decoy. That takes some intestinal fortitude to actually try, you know, you like, it's ridiculous, you really do. I mean it's almost laughable after it happens. You know, my hunter usually is just going, are you kidding me? I paid you what, and we're gonna do what? Roll right in on them. And that's that brings up another good point. When I use a decoy, I don't want to act. I don't want to move like I'm a predator, you know what I'm I want to just kind of casually stroll at the elk as if I'm just relaxed and moving in going to join up with them. Yeah, if I can, if their shade available, I'll stick to the shade as as best I can, and I absolutely use the wind still because they smell an elk that smells like a human. It's not gonna but yeah, it's It's amazing. Again. I found that just being fairly nonchalant and natural and just strolling in at a nice easy pay seems to be the key to success with those decoys. Um. I I typically when i'm calling, By contrast, if I'm guiding someone or if your listeners are hunting with a buddy and they're calling, my biggest key what I'm calling is is I want to be in a position where that elk cannot see me as the caller as he's approaching. Because as long as he cannot see my calling position, I found that they will continue to approach and move toward the caller and give your hunter abrupt shot. Um. Whereas if I'm up there calling too close because I want to see the action and I want to have a front row seat, which is very tempting to do. I found that when they get to that position where they can see the calling position, that's when they don't like it. And I feel like a lot of times, even if you had a decoy there, they would be very likely to stand off and look at the decoy and display and bugle at it and expect it to move to them at that point. So I feel like being further back and keep now approaching the the invisible calling position is the better tactic. Yeah, I know it's situational, but what what is that distance? Just if you could throw a number out there, Absolutely for me, it varies mostly from fifty to a yards back from my hunter. And you're exactly right that the terrain and the vegetation is going to dictate how far back I am. So typically I want to be as close as possible to my hunter, but yet still be my calling position being visible to that approaching ELK if that makes sense. Okay, So you know, with all that said that a lot of guys that hunt solo, UM like one of the big issues that I from what I understand, is that they are um you know, they're having to call as well, so they can't obviously stand behind themselves. So I kind of have a couple of questions in regards to that. I guess since we're talking about the decoy stuff, Um, would you say that a decoy is particularly at vantageous for a solo hunter who you know, the the elk is gonna use that is going to be using the window principle essentially, and it's gonna see your position from where you're calling and lock up a lot of times. Yeah. Absolutely, And I would say that guy who's going to be the solo hunter? Um, you know, not only do you want to throw your calls around and try to confuse the elk a little bit as he's approaching at to exactly where you're at, um, and then get quieter with your calls as he gets closer. But I would be a real proponent of having that, you know, either having you know, like my Montana decoy off into the side of you, you know, mounted on a tree or something, or having that ultimate predator decoy mounted on your bow. Yeah. So how how likely would you be if you didn't have a decoy as a solo hunter? Two? Uh, if you've got a bull coming in to make a call and move up forty yards or something like that. Yeah, I you know, I have to be honest, I haven't used that strategy yet. I think it will come into play at some point if I'm a solo hunter. Um, but I can see the value of that absolutely. And that's because, as you guys know, and as we're talking about and elks since and helps ELPs, depth perception is amazing. I mean it's incredible, um from you know, say three yards away and no exactly the three where that call was coming from, even if you're doing your best to project the sound elsewhere. Um So yeah, blowing a call or a few calls and then moving forward and setting up could be very deadly. Absolutely might have to run you over. You know. What is equally impressive is my inability to know how far away they are. It's like, I don't think that was eighty yards. Maybe it's six hundred, I don't you know. It's like the mountains can really play some tricks on you with with the way those bugles work sometimes. Is there well, let's make this a podcast. Is there any way to kind of that you found to uh judge distance or is it just experience? Man? I think it's just experience, And I think it's a little bit to do with you know, just an individual's hearing. Um. You know, I have to say, I hunt with a lot of different people and and what I'm most amazed by is how I will hear a bugle and they'll hear it too, but they'll they'll point ninety degrees different. Oh. You know. I always say to my wife the day when I either can't hear the bugling that my client heirs or I'm hearing it in the wrong direction, is what I'm done as a guy, because I feel like then I'm no longer effective. Um. But I just I think I'm real blessed with directional good directional hearing and knowing distance. And I think a lot of that, like you say, just comes with just being out there and and and doing it a lot and uh, and making mistakes too. I've my share of moving towards bugling I think further away and and they're probably closing the distance coming to the call, and I bump them and I'm standing up with my pats down, and there they are. That's funny. Well, I captured one of my silliest mistakes on film a couple of years back. Um, I was doing contact bugles early in the morning, just trying to get some answers, and I was in a box canyon and I was catching my echo at the end of my call, and I was thinking that it was a bull answering quickly, you know, and after about three times, I was like, wait, a sick And that sounds just like my cadence, you know. It's just like you said, you gotta mess up a few times. And uh, I haven't had enough years to make all the mistakes yet, so I'm still making them along the way. But you know, one of the interesting things on that note is UM shot a bull in twenty eighteen and uh he was there's quite a few bulls up on this dark timber hill who was late in the evening of pressure system whether system had moved in, and they turned on, you know, just a great great even Neil Hunton and stalked in and actually it was just just pretty much spot and stalked this bull and made Calcol's right at the last second to get him to move closer. But right before I called to this bull and he was ball intents and purposes, a the herd bull. He was a bigger bodied bull, but not quite a large antler and bull just you know, you know how it is in Colorado sometimes they just don't always have the genetics to be giants. Well, anyways, this bull throws his head back and just lets out the purest sounding bugle, but it was about thirty decibels lower than you expected it to be. It was just a little whistle, you know. And if I hadn't been there to see it, I would have assumed he was two d three hundred yards away, when really he was thirty five yards away when he did it. It was the strangest thing. Do you see pressured animals do anything like that? Or what do you think of about that? They can really really not only make sounds that you just can't even imagine that an elk would make, like you say, unless you were standing right there. But yes, their volume level can vary so much with bugling or cow calling. Um. You know, I've seen cows at various times when they're excited or intense. They can be calling loud enough you can hear it a mile away, or you, like you say, with that bull, you can be up yards from them and it's like they're whispering. They're just They're just amazing to me. And I feel like in all the years of hunting them, I learned something new every year and and every bowl and every setup can be different, you know. I like to say that I can kind of classify bulls into three categories. There's bulls who are, you know, fairly passive, there's some who are super aggressive, and there's some that are in the middle. Um, And you know you have to deal with each one a little differently. But that's what makes elf cunting so much fun. Is how do you so, how do you pick that out that quick? You know, how do you quickly pick something out the attitude of a bull out like that? Yeah, A lot of times it's just from the sound of their bugle, the aggressiveness of the of the bugle, of the volume of it. You know, whether or not they're backing it up with chuckling or grunting, which which to me just adds, you know, more emotion and punctuation to that call, if you will. Um, that's how I really determine it. UM. So it kind of tells me what I need to get back to them. I will say this, um, kind of what I've learned, I would say maybe the last five years I used to just kind of be a just a pure cal caller, and I called in a lot of elk cal calling, and I still do cal call a lot, but when I use bugling is when I'm dealing with hurd bulls, and that's really where I've had my breakthrough. Calling in some really nice bulls in Arizona. Is um is recognizing that a bulls are hurt bull by his aggressiveness, the frequency of his bugling. And then a lot of times as you're moving and you'll see cows that used to scare me to death, and now I kind of lick lick my chops and think, Okay, this bull is vulnerable because he has cows and he's gonna jealously guard what he has. Now, the first mistake I could make is if I bugle from too far away, the natural reaction is he's gonna push the cows away, or the cows are going to push away, and he's gonna follow him. But I found if I get right in on him and get right in amongst the hurt, and it's it's kind of icy and hard to do without making a call, and I get get myself into that position and get my hunter ready and blow that lip ball or some people call a display bugle. And again you have to do it with the right volume, the right tone, and the right emotion. Um. I like to say I'm making a statement at that bowl and not asking him a question to take your cows. I'm learning with your cows, and I'm punching you right in the nose, dude, all and I'm telling you those those big aggressive bulls will come right over when you blow that call that way. Man. It's the difference in you want to go outside and let's take it outside, right, that's the difference. That's totally, absolutely and and when you say that also winking at his girlfriend or his wife as you're saying, oh, that's cool, man. So do you you know since it has that many intricacies to it, is that something you're gonna suggest people learn to try to do as new elk callers? Or is that would you tell guys, hey, if you actually want to go kill elk, just stick to the cow calls and you'll make it happen. Yeah, I would say, by and large, that's exactly right. I would say you're gonna in in general. I want to say in general, because I know guys who are super successful bugling, and you know what, I attribute it to Number one, understanding elk, knowing, positioning and win to bugle, and then number two, they sound good when they bugle you've gotta sound good, you know, for them to believe it. Um. So I would say if you're you know, an earlier you know, um beginning el khunter, maybe intermediate, and you feel like you're still, you know, trying to master the calls, I would say, cal calling is going to get you much further than just bugling at everything. Um, you know, especially with satellite bulls, because you got to know the satellite bulls, that's what they're all about. They're all about, Hey, i'm alone. Um, it's it's running, I'm feeling it. I want to get with some cows and uh that that calcoll coming from over there. That's what I want. That's what I'm about. So um yeah, I would say in my career, I've called in eighty or ninety percent of the bulls I've called in with cal calling. That's cool, and that's kind of countercultural compared to what you see a lot in media, you know, because don't get me wrong, it is cool to go out in the woods and rip a bugle, right, It's a lot of fun to do that and to have that chess game with a bull and try to say the right stuff and then ties them in. But I think it's so cool to uh maybe speak the sweet tones you know, and and be able to really have a high rate of success on call ins. UM. I want to get into the herd bull stuff here in a little bit. But for the guys, who are you know, trying to kill a bull like we were just talking about, especially with like the satellites and the young you know, four and five points and stuff like that. Um, yeah, can you give us a little inside into that cow calling and what that sounds like? I know that, you know, the standard MU is kind of what everybody learns right off the bat, but you know, what is that what's that sequence sound like? Somewhat? Yeah, I'm mostly calling them in with what I called just to standard nasally muh and that very person to person what they you know, think that sounds like? Um? And I'm not overdoing it either. UM. I just like to blow it in kind of just a soft, medium, sweet, sexy, nasally three dimensional way. And I'll say this um. In in my calling career, I have called in the mustibles with open read calls versus mouth reads. UM. Even though I can blow a mouth read UM, I think those are harder for people to master. So if you're that guy who's still in that journey of improving on your calling, I say, man, start out with an open read called map at and and then work on your mouth read calling because these open reads, just by design, they just have that that, you know, three dimensional nasal quality to them. You know, Tom and I had this conversation of the day and I've I've used Rocky mount and calls, my Rocky Mountain hunting calls, h Rocky Jacobson's brand, and you've got the signature series there. I've used those my whole olcunting career, but I've always been the mouth die fragm guy. And him and I talked about this, and I said, you know, I know that the bottom blows or open diaphragm open read calls, they sound sweeter, but it's the convenience of having that diaphragm in your mouth and being able to do the gamut of what you need to do with it. And that's why I go with that. However, I really think you're onto something there, because the best call I've ever used, I don't even think they made it any make anymore. And my granddad gave it to me. It was like sort of an open read, but it had rubber around it, and it was it was kind of a botton blow pretty much, you know, and you could just it's almost like you could play the flute with it, you know, because you could just make so many subtle, different little sounds to it and whatnot. And UM, I know you kind of have had your hand in, uh some design if some of those calls, is there, right? Yeah, And it's it's mostly been open reads and then mouth reads as well, and then most recently a bugle to UM I'm really proud of and love called the Rogue. UM. So, this newest open read call that we came out with just for this year, I had it as a prototype next year, we call it the Heartbreaker. UM. It has an aluminum barrel, which you would think would make it sound harsh and overly loud and rash, but it's just the It sounds real, mellow and rich. I've got it right here. It probably won't come across really well over the phone, but I'll just blow it a couple of three. I love it. I love it. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. UM. And I'm just gonna blow that call, or really any cow call that I'm using. I'm basically just gonna blow one to three calls in a sequence, and when that bull responds back to me same way, I'm gonna let him gorgle, give him time to cock his ears back and listen for me. And then again, I'm just gonna give him that little bit of encouragement. I'm not going to overdo it, and I'm not going to be too passive. I think you can be both ways. You can you know, blow a bunch of blah blah blah blah blah and not ready for that, or you can not call back. And there's a lot going on out there in the Elk woods, and hears a bowl bugling off in the distance, and he thinks there's probably cows with that bowl. So I'm gonna go there because this person is just not talking enough. This cow is not not you know, ready for me. So yeah, I'd like to give them that encouragement every time they bugle, but again not overdoing it, and and just getting quieter and softer as they get closer. Seems to just be the two. Oh it sounds good. You got me teased of on it. So you know, I noticed in your your your note there let's call it that you know of the cow call, you don't spend a lot of time on the front end. It's a lot of the more nasal drop off on the back end. Do you found that that's the right sound to be making. I would say so yes, yeah, um, because when you listen to a cow call, most of the time they can draw it out, but most of the time it's just more of that you know, one type sound, just that hide hide to load. Yeah. Do you believe in the uh the old estrasmu that you hear God's talking about? Is that? Is that really a thing or is that a misnomer? I would say I would say it's a huge thing. Um. I'm basically kind of the guy who coined that estra scream sound. Um. I'm not saying that it is a true estra sound because I've heard cows do it in the summertime, so I'm not saying that it's totally limited to the fall, but the intensity level that I've heard cows doing it at in the fall, and I've seen the bulls react to it, it's a totally different thing. And it's a sound. It's like a desperation type sound, and it's mixed with the mew again, it just sounds absolutely like desperate, like I need some attention right now. Um, and yeah, it's a The sound I'm talking about is a real aspy, loud, three dimensional sound versus a wavy cal call. You know a lot of people when they talk about an estra's call, they're just doing kind of a wavy, whiney, clear cal call. I'm talking about a real raspy voice, e super aggressive sound that sounds like a It sounds literally like a chimpanzee screaming in a cave. Well, you got the old heartbreak of there with you. Do you want to give us an example. I'm gonna do it with the mouth read because you do not do on an open read. Um, this is a it's almost embarrassing to do. And I'm not real warmed up right now, don't worry. You're gonna sound great. Okay, we can headed out the bad one. So here's how it goes. M h m m m m m m m. You hear how loud and aggressive that is. That just flies in the face of how I call. When I was talking earlier about using an open read or making standard cal calls. When I make that estras stream. That's how I blow it, and I blow it loudly and frequently, and if I get a bull bugling to it, I just walked right at him and I keep making that sound basically until we're going to have a head on collision. That sounds cool, so quick set up. But I'm telling you it's intense. It's incredible, that's cool. You know. I've experimented with that some and I don't ever know if it's really working or not, because I just tend to just throw everything at him. And I'm really trying to learn a little bit more about you know, really what the same when to say it um. And on that note, it just would seem to me that if I'm a bull elk or say I'm a male of his pecs, which I am. I'm married now, you know, but if um my wife says hey, um casey, you know, like you know what I'm saying, It's like, why why would you not make that noise um all the time? You know, Like why is that not just the ace in the hole that anytime you around a bull, you make that noise and he comes in. Yeah, I think a lot of her for me is just my personality. I feel like that as a very aggressive, very intrusive sound out in the woods. And to be honest, I feel almost a little strange about using it around a guy that I've never guided, and I'm just and usually how it goes casey as I look at him and I say, Okay, I'm gonna blow a call. That's gonna sound really weird to you. It's gonna be really loud, it's gonna be really different than what I've been doing so far. So just you know, just just bear with me here, okay, And and works. And when I usually do it is is in this scenario when there's nothing going on, nobles are bugling, nothing happening, So I feel like I've got nothing to lose. I'm not going to spoil anything by call. By doing it amazing how I would literally say, seriously, and I have my cousin would back this up, who filmed with me a lot. I would say eight to nine times out of ten, when there's nothing going on and we start walking and patrolling and I start making that sound, we have an encounter with a bull within fifteen minutes of doing that. Oh man, that's cool. Yeah, makes believer, including me I need to be reinforced that that sound works. But again, it's it's it's a really aggressive sound, and I wouldn't just like the bugling. I wouldn't encourage your listeners to just go, oh, yeah, that's the base in the whole. I'm gonna go out and blow that. That's gonna be my go to call. Um. You know, you want to practice it and develop it to where it sounds really elk like before you try it out on the elk. Yeah, yeah, very cool. So, the state of Arizona is a big bull state and that's where you've uh, you know, done a ton of guiding and some know you've killed some big bulls yourself as well as guided a ton of them, right, And what that ends up being is, I'm I'm making assumptions, um, is that uh a lot of herd bulls get taken in Arizona, right because you're looking for the big bulls that are in the country, and usually big bulls translates to the bulls with cows and so kind of moving a little bit away from the guys who are just trying to kill an elk and find the way to kill an elk. Um. If a guy really wants to, uh say, you know, I've killed a few, or I want to you know, I want me versus the baddest antal in the woods or whatever it is. And they want to target herd bulls. What are some of the things to consider when you're doing that, Yeah, I say, First, you'll get to where you can recognize a herd bull like I was mentioned earlier, by how he sounds bugling, by the frequency of his bugl ing. And then if you have a couple of one or two other bulls bugling, you can usually tell which one is the herd bull by how he answers back to the other bulls. Like one of the satellite bulls bugles. You can usually hear a little less aggression in the bugle, but then you'll hear the herd bull answer him or maybe even cut him off, and and and to me. Herd bulls they have one of two sounds three. They either have a super high shrill bugle with a real heavy ending to it, a real at the end and heavy grunts or heavy chuckles versus satellite bulls, or they'll do that raspy lit ball sound and follow it up with grunting mostly um so if you can get to where you can recognize not saying that that bull is going to be four just because he sounds great. The starting point to be able to recognize, hey, I can tell that that bull is the one that's got the cows versus this one here and that one over there. I think you can narrow it down a lot better and spend your time chasing the more mature bulls that way and eventually have any encounter. I'll give you a specific example. Last year, my archery hunter, on the first three mornings of his hunt, we called in and he got shots at three mature herd bulls on the first three mornings. Now we didn't We didn't get any of them. A little bit of bold fever came into the play, understand, but I'm telling you the first one within the first hour of his hunt was a three seventy to three, a absolute stud of a bull. We were we we I blew a bugle, he answered in the distance. We started approaching him. He didn't make another sound, he completely stopped bugling, and as we were moving toward him, I looked and I saw a couple of cows kind of cross in front of us, and thankfully I saw them, and they didn't see us. And then I looked off in the direction where those cows had come from, and there's this. I can tell it's a bull's legs and chest, I can see his neck. Name kind of threw a tree. And at that point he was only about eighty yards away, and I whispered to my hunter, I said, you stay right here. I'm gonna creep back just out of sight, and I'm gonna bugle at him some knock and arrow. And I'm not kidding guys. In a minute, I blew that lip ball bugle as I explained it, that bull but fired off a bugle at me and just came sauntering right over to us and right up in my hunter space. Man literally happened three mornings in a row the same scenario. Dude, that's cool. So you that my next question you kind of answered there. But you want to sound like his equal match whenever you you do make that contact with him. Is that right? I totally agree with that. I want to sound like I'm a real threat to him and a potential to steal his cows away, because I believe those cows pick a bowl by not only his antler size, but also just his posturing and how he sounds sound like a big mature bowl that interests the cows. And also it you know, gets gets his hackles up, thinking, Yeah, this guy is a player over here. I'm gonna have to go check him out and maybe deal with him. Man. That's cool. You'll be fired up. Man, that's that is an awesome story and appreciate your your quality of storytelling there too, because I can just I can just vision and it just makes me so excited for what's gonna happen. And less than a month now, yeah yeah, yeah, as and I'll say, to my hunter's credit, that's that guy I was hunting. What he did kill a herd bull on day ten of the hunt. We called in another her dude. That's a yeah, that's something there, because I had to hunt the whole season last year. And you know, once you get past about day seven or eight, it takes a real dude to still pull it together and make it happen after you've hunted that long. So you know, kudos to him on that deal for sure. Yeah. And you guys, I'm sure you've experienced this a lot of times. What can happen is the hunt can start off, you can have some encounters, and then you can get some bad weather. In arras to what we get is we can get high winds. And I've just found when there's high winds, it makes it very difficult even if I can still here bugling. It seems like they bugle way left when it's windy. They do not like twenty and thirty mile an hour winds. It just makes them very nervous out giving away their position. So my last question for you, Steve is, um, We've had a lot of people give different answers to this type of question, But how do you find elk when you go walking out in the woods? How are you locating a bowl to hunt? Are you using cow calls? Are you using bugles? Are you, you know, glassing? How does that typically look for you? Man? As far as calling, I hate to just dodge the question, but I do use both. Usually when I'm cow calling, Um, you know, I'll start off with kind of medium volume cal calls and then I'll build toward loud or more echo e cal calls, because you can definitely locate bulls by cal calling, you know, if you do it loud enough and you know on the right way. Um, but I've gotten more and more towards you know, using my rope bugle tube and just throwing out a high pitched bugle. And then if I don't get anything to that, you know, I'll sit there and wait for maybe five or ten seconds I don't get an answer, I'll out a chuckles to it. Um. So so yeah, again, I'll use both uh to solicit an answer. And then as far as finding elk in general, you know what I'm looking for is I'm sure a lot of your listeners know this. Elk need these things to to basically exist and survive. They need water, they need feed, and they need good cover. And also I'll add to that, you know, seclusion and isolation most elk like better than being pressured and close to people, although in Arizona there are real close to towns and real you know, civilisation. But but yeah, in general, by and large, you know, elk elk need good shady spots to bed. They have to water and UH and they have to have feed. And if you find those three things in an area, you know you're and you're an Elk habitat, You're generally going to find them. They're just not where there's not water. That's that's yeah for sure. Man. So if if say our listeners are interested in in ambing up or at least getting into the calling game, can you make a few suggestions of like what maybe they should look into getting to maybe start doing some ELK calling. Yeah. The first thing I would encourage them to do is to, um, you know, listen to real ELK as much as possible. And you know, there's a lot of good stuff out there on YouTube. Um. You know, there's a lot of great ELK callers out there these days with a lot to offer. I think every person has it did something different to offer maybe, so I would tell them to you know, pick and choose and buy into what they think will work for them from from each person. Um. As far as calls go, um, gosh, there's so many calls out in the market, I would say. The first thing is, don't get suckered by the name of the call or the fact that it's necessarily brand new. You know, my Heartbreakers brand new and it's got a pretty cool name. But how it sounds good, and that's the key. A call that sounds good, We'll still call OLK in twenty thirty fifty years from now. So tonal quality is the key. Um, and and again when I blow a call, I'm looking for that, you know, first of all. Of all, it needs to have a three dimensional quality to it and just a nasally sweetness to it. This is what I look for. You know, back before COVID, I'd just go into bass pro shops and blow calls, you know, but I'd be a little weird about that right now, Yeah, exactly, just cracked the package open, give toot, and stick it back in. I used to test duck calls like that all the time. Yeah, yeah, I remember doing some outdoor shows where people would come up and yeah, they want to blow on my bugle or whatever. Would be like, are you sure sure that man sharing a diaphram with the guys? Just about I've done that. I have not done that. That's funny. So, um, what about the diaphragm calls? You know, there's hundreds, and they're all different colors and whatnot. You know, you've got a couple that you really like that you kind of worked on. Yeah. So I've got these three reads in my signature series. I've got the Elk Camp, the Royal Point, and the Times Up Again. I think they have cool names. You know, that's a good start. But I think the reason they sound good is because of first of all, they're they're built on a you know, a more narrow frame, so you don't have a big wide latex. I feel like the older style calls that you have a big wide latex. They just require way more air pressure to get sound out of And I want to call that if I just barely lean on it, just barely breathe on it, I can get sound out of it. And then I can determine my pitches and my volumes by just my tongue pressure and my air pressure. Um. So that's the start right there. And then you know, the differences in the in the reads is going to be by latex stickness, tex stretch, you know, whether they have a what's called a pallet plate on them or not. I'm a huge believer in that pallet plate came out in the nineties of you know, Rocky Jacobs and and invent in that. You know, premost manufactured their calls on three years and still do. And and of course Rocky Mountainhunting calls I work with really builds you know, calls calls around that pallet plate design that Rocky invented. I would encourage your listeners that that's where they want to start, is with a mouth read with a pallet plate and go from there and and just try some different ones out and see what fits their mouth the best, see what sounds the best for them. But again, um, when I blow a mouth read, I want one that's sensitive and we'll make sounds without a lot of air pressure. Yeah, yeah, very cool. Good tips there, man. So, um, I know that y'all are about to really ramp up and pretty much if you do Hunt the West like, things are about to get really exciting, right, Um, but y'all do a lot out of film production stuff, and um, I might be wrong, but is do you all have stuff running this quarter right now? Yeah? Thank you for asking, because I haven't even touched on that. My show elk Camp is actually airing right now on the Sportsman Channel. In fact, it aired today from five thirty PM to six I mean not get it right before we got on the phone here, So it it airs. It's in its third season, so I'm super pumped about that. Air's the third and fourth quarters of the year, so it basically starts in late June. And airs through December. Um it's on Sportsman Channel. Uh so if any of your listeners out there have Direct TV or Dish Network, they can pick it up there. Um. I also, I don't have it, but I know you can get it on sling. Um. I'm sure I'm missing a lot of other places that that it would air. Um. I have some season one episodes loaded onto YouTube, not all of the season one episodes, but summer on YouTube. I'm not able to air current episodes, if you know what I mean, because the network expects you to deliver exclusive episodes to them that they can happen here. Um. But yeah, I'm just really excited about the show and going out and getting some new fresh footage again this year. And and I also edit the show. So that's kind of a love hate relationship. Yeah, Tyler's or he understands where you coming from. Tyler. It's very very time consuming and meticulous and if you're a perfectionist, that can literally drive you crazy. I mean, Um. The good news for me is I just delivered my final season three episode to the network. It I uploaded it to the network. It got there at about five thirty am this morning. So I feel like I'm three now to go hunt help. Now that's a good feeling. That's right, man, That is that is right. Well we're all looking forward to it, man. So Monday knights UM five six or something like that, you said, we can check that. I'll simplify this. So the prime time airing is seven thirty pm Eastern Standard Time. Got just cool. Yeah, you've got Central, So what it is are six thirty Central five thirty Mountain Time. It also has an earlier airing on Mondays at airs at one thirty pm Eastern, so guys can adjust they're you know, they're they're viewing for that. Also obviously DVR and record it and watch it at your leisure. And then it has a real late night Saturday night slash Sunday morning airing. It's it's like three am Sunday morning if you're on the if you're on Pacific time, it would be midnight Pacific time Saturday night. Yeah, awesome, man. Well we'll put some of those times down in the in the nose blow just so people can make sure and catch it. Um. Y'all are great Instagram follow two and just appreciate some of the knowledge and stuff that you put out there on all your platforms, and may have been following you for for a little while, you know, probably since I really got into the elk hunting stuff, you know, eight or so years ago. And uh, I just really appreciate your advantage on things. I appreciate you know, your approach to things. You're a very, um, very kind person, it seems, Steve, So thank you so much for spending some time with us tonight. Man. Um oh, do you still a guide for the public and someone book a hunt with you right now? Absolutely? Um You know Arizona. The key thing about Arizona is they have to draw a tag. So the hurdle to tounting with me personally in Arizona is drawing in tag. I would welcome anyone who's interested in applying for tags. And you know, I've also got this zero hunt these program where someone doesn't like the thought of paying six or seven thousand dollars for a guided hunt, I've got a zero hunt these program where they can pay three nine dollars a year that covers the cost of their guided hunt if they draw a tag. And uh, I've had some members draw their very first year, so you know, not sell that too big, but if any of your interested, uh, the listeners are interested, they can check out zero hunt these dot com and if that's of interest to them, they feel free to get ahold of me. I'd love to visit with them about it. Yeah, we'll definitely linked to that below because I think I was talking to somebody about this the other day and that that is a game changer, man, for sure. I think that that is. It's a great, great idea on y'all's part, um, and I wish somebody would do it for she hunting too, So just drop a little bone there, get every figuring that out. But anyway, Steve, thanks so much for your time or not, man, we really really appreciate it, and good luck this season. Thank you guys. It's been a real blessing to be on here with you guys, and uh and the best of luck on your hunts this year. And um yeah, thank you again. It's been really fun to be on with you guys, and thanks thanks to the listeners. Now that with some killer info, don't forget to subscribe in A five star of you means a ton to us. Remember this is your element living in