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The MeatEater Podcast
Ep. 047: Laramie, Wyoming. Steven Rinella talks with Wyoming policy advisers David Willms and Nephi Cole, Ronny Boheme, along with Brody Henderson and Janis Putelis from the MeatEater crew.
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1h45m
Subjects discussed: mountain man Jacques Laramie; the ecology of the post-apocalypse and the best caliber for post-apocalyptic firearms; ’Waters of the United States (WOTUS)’ vs. ‘navigable waters’; Justice Kennedy’s ‘significant nexus’; the delisting of wolves in Wyoming; Mexican gray wolves; Yellowstone Syndrome; hunting luddites; dynamite fishing for trout; using old hunting gear and disposable culture; Steve’s theory on discomfort; John Denver; what swayed Steve to go to grad school in Montana; losing dogs to wolves; the division of western and eastern hunters; and more.
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00:00:08
Speaker 1: This is a me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless severely vote bitten in my case, underwear listening makes eat podcast. You can't forget anything, all right, this is this is here's the deal. We're right now. And what the highest stadium highest high states of America. Yeah, so if you've ever wondered, if you ever been laying in bed at night wondering what the highest altitude college football stadium is in America, which I was talking about that with my wife last night. Um, it's this one Memorial Stadium. And we're actually in Uh, if there was a game going on, we would look out the window and see it. We're in. Like, no, I want to call it a press box. It's the athletic Director's box, the v A P suite, it's his luxury box. Yeah, his luxury box. I'm here with introduce yourselves? How much not? How much can you guys say, like what you do for a living? I mean, I don't know talk are you here? But I mean are you here in your like can you talk to us in your official capacity? Both? Well? Probably you know, as long as it doesn't this like your work account or your Gmail account. This is my work account. Gail I'm not qualifier. I'm a policy advisor. That's what I meant for the governor. Why I'm a governor, Matt Mead and uh, I'm working, working, working for for about four years, and I do natural resource Paul See. I came onto his team doing energy UM work and I do UH right now. My main deal is water, but interestingly enough, I also do UH. I do water, I do firearms, refugees, international trade. I think that's a really build out, like poker cards. That's two of them showed up last week. We well, just short short stories. That's why. I mean, we do not have a refugee settlement program, so we'll just leave it at that. And so it's just not a whole lot of workloads there. Yeah, Dave, Yeah, David Williams. I'm a policy advisor as well for the governor. I'm basically if it's got hoofs or claws or pause, I'm working on it for him. Wildlife other natural resource issues for the governor. UM and been doing that for about a year. Uh. And you went to regular college and law school here. I did. This is my alma mater. I did undergrad and wildlife management and environment, natural resources and got my law degree here as well. And then, uh, you worked for fishing Wilder. I always want to call it fishing game, but what you worked for the department here too, right, yes, sort of? I mean I I was their attorney for I was with the Attorney General's Office assigned to represent the game of fish department. So yeah, I got involved a lot of that. Yeah, so I did a lot of their work. I don't know why. I've talked about this many times and you can talk about this year podcast. The name. Let you guys are down with who Laramie was Jacques Yeah, yeah, spelled his name though l a like law and then rumy and got a lot of stuff named after him for like and eight. He was a trapper out here in eighteen twenty he went off to go trap the headwaters at the Laramie eighteen twenty one, doesn't show up at the rendezvous, never find his body. There's all kinds of room is about what happened to him, and winds up with half the state named after him. It's pretty impressive. Yeah, Laramie, Peak, Lammie River, town of Laramie radically change geologic episode. Dude, if he would have lived, he would have had like he could have taken you know, people out and been like in this and he for a dude, they don't even know what happened to him. He didn't even know he had a river named after him. If he lived, nothing would have been named after Hi's like being an artist, right, it might be you gotta die to become famous. Before we get into what we're talking about, I want to talk about something that just struck me so funny. Man. I was reading up on Collapsible twenty twos and I and yesterday I took my I took my daughter to her ballet class, and it wasn't long enough that you'd go and actually get something done, you know, so I just kind of waited for and while doing it, I fell in one of those internet traps. I was just reading up on class with twenty two and then I want to buy a on a survivalist website. And what's interesting is this guy gets into what I now think of as the ecology of apocalypse and what he's what he's talking about was he's arguing what's the best caliber for a post apocalyptic firearm? And he's like, you got your commando, guys, you got your ninja guys, But I'm gonna give you the straight dope on what's up with post apocalyptic situation. He's like a twenty two because you know, you're gonna have a lot of flooding and whatnot, he's saying, and when that happens, it tends to dry vermin out. This guy is so wrong. So he's like, you're gonna be dealing a lot of rats and wild dogs, and the twenty two, you see, is a economical way to deal with all that. And he goes in the deer populations only the last year, at which point we're just gonna beating muskrats and whatnot, so you're not even gonna need a big gun. The guys out of he had the whole deal, like the and I realized that there's like a good field of inquiry would be the eco pology of the post apocalypse. You could carry a lot of that stuff. You know, you're can carry a lot of six. You're in the wrong state talking to the wrong guys on that argument, because I gotta tell you, in Wyoming, we just get up and go to work. Yeah, get up and go to work. That was even my brilliant segue is um, yeah, there's the ecology and the and the wildlife of the hypothetical post apocalyptic future, and then there's the actual wildlife. Uh that's here right now that we deal with. And you guys already pointed out you work for the governor. I'll point out you guys, governs, as far as approval ratings go, has a like a pretty good, like an admirable approval rating. Yeah, he's often putting the top tier of of governors, like usually of the people like you're doing really good, but six, I don't know, I was look at six. Yeah, he's one of the time. I mean, they have different people published top tens, and he's always in the top five. He's he hasn't of course number one. You know, if there's if it's messed up somewhere and they put somebody else first, I'm sure that's a claric claro they can take care of because is number one. Number one. Now, he's a he's an amazing governor. He's a he's smart, he's pragmatic, he's uh intelligent, he's a really easy guy to work for. And I know Dave's just like me, Um, you know some he uh he tapped me from the industry I was in and asked me to come join his team, and I got to think about it for a long time, and I got to, you know, to to look at him and how he does business, and it's been He's just a really easy guy to work for. And it's a it truly is a privilege. I mean, he's a fantastic individual. One of the things I think is enviable about being the position you guys are in in a state like this is you have uh like uh I mentioned to you on an email, you have sort of an intact suite of mega fauna like you guys have. You're one of the few states really anywhere that has its um that has specimens of all of your law our channels, pretty much everything, all of the pre contact of large mamals. Maybe not in the abundances, but very few states are able to really say that because you, I mean, you have a dozen Like if you count a coyote and bigger as a large man, you guys got about a dozen large mammals at least. Yeah. UM, So a big part of your job is that you've got people who actually sit around and thinking about wildlife on a state level. And I think a lot of states. I mean it always comes up. I mean it's like a huge part of the work here. Yeah, I mean trying to keep the people happy while also doing a responsible job of managing a menagerie of wildlife has a lot of complications. This is a digree. I do want to get back to. I do want top of what we're gonna talk about. We're talking about wildlife management issues. UM, but do you want do you want to have do you wanna UM take to task you have? We talked about stream access on the previous episode and you and you felt that we were playing a little fast and loose with a couple of definitions. Do you care? Do you does it matter enough that you'd want to say, like, here's where I think you were wrong? Now you bad? I'd be happy to you know, I don't know if you want to go there now? And no, I mean if you can do it in a quick way, if you can say, let me just let me break it down, let me just refresh yourmen's memory. So, in case you didn't listen to this, we did an episode about stream access law and and the and in doing that, basically that comes down to UM, whether you and your state or where you hang out, whether you're allowed to float down a river. Okay, so in some states you're allowed to stable or high water mark in your river, and that means you can as long as you can get in the water to fish, you can wait up and down the river and you're cool. Um a stream gets small enough to where you're not allowed to do that anymore, you'd never go, you know, waiting up into private property and a drainage ditch for instance. Like just the fact that it's water doesn't mean as public access. So there's all these definitions that govern what is what's known as a navigable stretch of water, and there's some of these and some of the definitions are so difficult in dealing with it. For the last hundred years, people have been arguing about it in courts, like um does said river warrant public access, you know, like I, should you be allowed to float it? Should you be allowed to wait and it even though you don't have permission from landowners who are on the river banks. The whole thing about that, And afterwards N five very respectfully said that pointed out some errors in yeah, just yeah, I mean it's a tricky issue because I mean, and I think what I mentioned is, you know, the way you guys are using it, you're probably fine because you know, when you're talking about navigable waters as you know, if you're saying navigable water something I can put a boat in and quote and really navigate, then you know you're fine. But the challenges, you know, since you know, nineteen seventies, there's been uh, the term navigable waters is used almost interchangeably with the term, you know, waters of the United States or waters of the US or not. People are saying votas. So if you've never if you haven't heard that before, um, I saw you use that unfamiliar with pods. But potas is largely responsible for where we're at with votus right now, and so waters the United States. When the Clean Water Act, you know, nineteen seventy two, there's there's a suite of just seminal you know, foundational important you know, environmental legislation that came out all around the same you know, tan twenty year period in our nation really had an awakening, and that includes the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, the Endangered Species Act, the you know protections that are so you know, we talked about Land and Water Conservation Fund and all these acts. There's you know, what you had is bipartisan effort where everybody came together and said, you know what, these things are bigger than me, They're bigger than my issue, They're bigger than just one state. Let's work together on these issues. And uh, you know that's so you have this this passage of all these acts and over time, am there's been some significant mission creep in some of these and the Clean Water Acts, the definition of waters in the US definitely falls into that, you know ground where it started out, you know, protecting the chemical, physical, biological integrity of the waters of the United States. And you know, it was largely at the beginning navigable waters, you know, and a few people are going to argue that, and that's because a navigable water, the Clean Water Act, it's all it's hitched up to the commerce clause of the Constitution. So that so what lets it work, What gives it its authority to go into an area that you know, you know, some would argue federalism should keep the federal government out of and should be states rights. Is that those streams you can use them for commerce because you can get your boat in that stream and go across the line, and you're you know, doing you bet. And so what happened is over time you had things, you know, you had some things like that. Before two thousand one that had gone as far as having a rule card that called the migratory bird rule right, which said, off, a migratory bird flies across state lines and could land in that puddle no matter where that puddle is at. Well, now that's part of interstate commerce, therefore regulated by the federal you bet. And the Supreme Court struck that down in two thousand and one. And I gotta be really careful about counselor Dave here. The attorney is gonna, you know, when he when he's you know, you mean to say so back up, because I find it real hard to believe. You're saying that someone proposed and from purely all touristic regulated Yeah. I wish they would have won from a purely altruistic way, because that'd be real good for me as a duck hunter. But you're saying this uthing. But I would have a real hard time justifying to add to a lot of people. You're saying that it was an idea that if a duck can land in it, it's federal property. Uh, not federal the company it's but it's regulated by them, so it's not like it's their pond. Yeah, but you want to do something with that pond, you're going to ask them for a permit. You're gonna come and say, mother, may I And if you don't, you're going to get the thirty thou dollar a day fine, you know, just a fat fine on and that's you know. So that was challenged and uh, and the court sent it back and said, you know, I don't think so that's your your overreaching. And then there are a couple more decisions that occurred UM in round two thousand and six that they're not going to go into details and born you with swank and ripono's but those decisions the same thing, basic thing happened. You had UM people challenging and said, you know, you've gone too far, and this is you know, you've taken too much authority. You know, you've gone past the limits of what the commerce clauses should be allowing you to do within the clean water wreck and uh, and they the agencies were instructed to go back and and kind of fix this issue and find and read and and get defined what the waters of the United States are, to get a definition of waters in the US. And uh, the famous decision that kind of pushed everybody back that way, you know, the pin and that everybody that everything hinges on is Justice Kennedy who used the term, excuse me, significant nexus, and he said, basically, look, if you want this to attach to the Clean Water Act, basically there has to be a connection. It has to be significant. You can't just have you know, the grab things from wherever. Has to be connection has to be significant. And the reason he's pivotal is because four members of the court said, we'd give you know, Army Core and ep I can have jurisdiction of any waters they want. Four members of the Court said, these guys are way out of bounds. If it's not like right on a navigable water, they shouldn't have it. So Kennedy said, well, you know, if it's a significant nexus, then but now to find significant nexus and so we've been in this kind of gray area defining you know, what is a water the US, which again people use interchangeably with you know, navigable waters, where there's been a lot of discretion. People been trying to figure out, well, what is it really? Yeah, when we were the argue, the discussion we had was we never even talked about what the FED said. We talk about how the different states define that, and that's and honestly that's that's a different challenge because like in Montana was one of the states we discussed, they defined it as was it used for commerce? And that's again that's where I say, like, where you guys are using it the way you're using it, you're probably fine. But you know, for a lot of the people who are out there when they hear navigable waters and they think that that's a settled question on the national scale, you know, especially with the correlation, it's really not a settled question. And so right now it's actually in the courts right now, you know, trying to you know, the the agency is basically what happened is the EPA and Army Corps they rolled out a proposal where they said anything with a bed bank and an ordinary high water mark waters in the US, anything with a bed bank in an ordinary high wank because you sent me a picture of something that I would even call a stream, And then that's the issue. It doesn't even have to have water in it. It's anything with a bed bank in ordinary high water marks, so anything that shows sorting, anything that you know, So basically, you know, pick a draw, you know, and if there's potentially have a storm event and it's gonna have water going down that draw, you know, going into a navigable water, they think that that should be water. Us. That's a nash. You're saying, that's a national national Yeah, it's and it's it's it's not being implemented now because the courts, so there were multiple efforts. Thirty two states challenged this thing and said you've overstepped your bounds. And so in the there's there's there's two stays on one of them within a district court which includes you know, thirteen states including Wyoming, and then one of them at a federal level it's sixth Court of Appeals where it's also a state. And what the stay means is that the states came in to the judges and argued and said these guys overstepped and then they looked at the they looked at the evidence in front of them right now, and they said, you know, you can't let them implement this now because it's gonna harm us. And the courts said that there's a preponderance of likelihood that the states are gonna win on the merits. And so this still has to play out. It's going to play out in the circuit court, and it's going to probably go to the Supreme Court. Um. From my perspective, you know, and and and it's dicey, it's it's a it's a challenging issue. And the unfortunate part about it kind of trying to come back around to all these environmental laws that are so foundational important it is because we didn't have to be there. You know, there were some proposals for how you could define you know, because there there's a The State of Wyoming protects all waters to a degree higher than what the Clean Water Act does. You know, if there's water on the ground in the State of Wyoming, we protect that water and you know, dump your cup over. You know, we're gonna protect that water. We have water quality standards for that. But the challenges when from my perspective that when you have that influence coming in there, that that that federal influence, um, it makes it really hard to be champions of of of doing the right thing when somebody comes in and tries to take it all away from you from a you know, from that level. And really that's what we feel happened with the Clean Water Act. You know, we can take care of these waters. We know how to do that. Montana can take care of theirs, they know how to do that. You know, these these small streams, these these other areas. You know we're good at you know, come to Wyoming, comes see comes see our state. You're gonna agree we're pretty pristine. We do a good job. So do you guys feel this is what we emailed about earlier more time with this and I want to allow you to give voice this. But you feel that, uh that that is a general theme in the American West, in the US kind of this this Uh yeah, you know, I mean as far as as far as when it comes to natural resources management wildlife, do you feel that there is a tug of war going on between states and in the federal government? Absolutely? Where do you do? Do you feel that that's particularly true in the West or around the whole country? So, I, I mean, I think it's more Western based, and part of it's because you have all your public lands and west, so you have you have your federal landownership, uh, federal land management decisions. Then you have wildlife in the in the state's claim ownership of the wildlife right, are trying to manage the wildlife, and so you have inherent conflicts between the states and the federal government in the West. Um, I'm sure it's a I'm sure they have issues in the East as well. Um, but it's I think it's probably more pronounced in the West, at least on the wildlife issues because of those the public land interface with uh wildlife man, because it gives them something to have jurisdictions. Yeah, yeah, um okay, because because I think waters esoteric, it might be even a hard thing to discuss. Now he is gonna go to law school now after that? I mean it was good, Yeah, I thought it. It was good. But I want to make I make a mean pizza as long as you keep the cheese on top. Ways here in law school, So I wanna do that same thing. But tell like, like, tell me the story. Explain in terms of wolves, because people love wolf. Yeah, explain like the state federal dispute all right, in terms of wolves and wolves? I'm gonna talk wolves, that's all I'm gonna am. I talk bears a little bit. I want to talk, but for sure, wold, okay, I'd love to hear. I'd love to hear in terms of wolves and bearrass. All right, So wolves, I'm gonna do some devil's advocacy, don't do it just to make sure we get the whole point out. That's a complicated thing, it is, for sure. So history of wolves in Wyoming zero. There were zero wolves in the state of Wyoming. Wolves are are introduced or reintroduced depending on who you talk to. Uh, depends need state to stay reintroduced. It depends on who you talk to. We is someone saying that, is someone proposing that wolves had migrated down from Canada. Look, no, you know what you have is you have to two trains of thought. And you have some folks that said, well, the wolves that they brought in from Canada are different than the wolves that in Wyoming before. And they're debating introduced or reintroduced exactly. Yeah, anyway, so that different topics that yeah, okay, yeah, alright, alright, so that's a that's a great story, a great thing that they brought down super wolves. Yeah, that's for another. And we've even met a guy. We met a guy who told we met a guy in BC who was like, oh, yeah, we I knew one of the guys that was catching him. I need a trapper, And he said he'd go in there and pick out the meanest, nastiest ones and sent him down to Wyoming. Anyway. Inefficient. Yeah, they've been effective wolves. So yeah, So so I was messed up reintroduction introduction, let's just let's just say and let's just say reinduced. It's it's all the same. It's all the same species in a, in a in Lena in terms, yeah, all the same species reintroduced uh in ninety six, something like thirty two or thirty four total wolves. Yeah no, But just to get the full story, sure, where was the state of Wyoming on that. That's an interesting one because obviously, for the years leading up to that, uh, Wyoming didn't want to see wolves come back into the state. But it got to a point where, uh, we saw the writing on the walls this was gonna happen. So we negotiated what's called a ten J rule. So, and which under the Endanger Species Act ten J is an experimental but non essential population. So theoretically, uh, you can put them in there. The overall population. If you take those wolves out that you put in there, it's not gonna have an effect on the overall population. And so it's experimental non essential. Uh. And and by getting that designation, we said, okay, as long as they're experimental non essential, you know, we'll take these wolves. Didn't because it gives you some more latitude. It gives you some more latitude with like lethal control and things if you right. It so gives you more regulatory flexibility. That people are following all this complicated, Yeah, I try. I'm gonna limit my interruptions, but I just wanted to paint one quick picture for right now. There was a period of time when in the bit roots, the bit root range, people were like they were talking about in reintroducing some grizzlies in the bit root range, and it would have carried the reinroduction, would have carried with it that ten J status, or you could have waited for the inevitable, which is one was gonna show up there on its own. If it did, it would have a whole different status. That's because it wandered in there on its own. And I remember thinking that the people who were uneasy with grizzlies, I like, you ought to make a deal with the devil and go with the ten J, Go with the ter go with the ones that were put in their mechanically, because you're gonna have a little more leeway because eventually they're gonna get in there anyway, and then you're gonna not have any leeway. That's right. And the flip side is if if they leave the ten J area, uh, they take on the threatened status. Yeah. So so you have a designated area, so it works both ways. You have this ignated ten J population and boundaries for the ten J area. So Wing said, okay, uncle, do it right. So we have them, Uh, they're reintroduced. We have wolves. Uh. Since that time, over the course of the last twenty years or so, Uh, we have managed that population to the point that it was twelve thirteen years ago that we met all of the recovery criterias. So the US Fish and the Wildlife Service said, for purposes of delisting, you need to do you need to meet X, Y and Z. You need and they at the time at the time of the yeah, yeah, and they worked with the states on that, so set up these this framework for Okay, if you get to this point, we'll start the d listing process. So we met that twelve thirteen years ago and I I you'll you'll ask me what were those numbers, And I can't remember the specific numbers, but it was somewhere around a hundreds. That was maybe even less than that hundred wolves outside of UH. I think it was outside of Yellstone National Parks, outside of the outside of the park. So they cut they cut thirty two loose inside the park. They did, and then we had a requirement for what the management had to be outside of the park UH and the wind River Indian Reservations up there, and so those wolves don't count towards our obligations as the state to meet these recovery crinteria. So this one wolves was like gradual spill over from the population that was introduced in Yellastone. I would not call it gradual. I would call it almost instantaneous. I mean, so now today we have almost four hundred wolves in in Wyoming, not just outside the that's counting the park and everything. But you've hit four times recovery objective. We've we've were way over recovery objective. The Fish and Wildlife Service has tried to delist wolves uh in Wyoming at least a couple of times. Um, we've been in five different losses and point that's the Feds. Yeah, that's people that ran the introduction. That's right, it's not it's not the state. I mean, the state's been pushing for for delisting, but the federal government, the US Fish and Widlife Service actually wrote two rules to d list wolves in Wyoming and the and other states too much like them saying, Hey, the wolves we put in there have got to the point where we wanted them to get. We will now turn them back to the state to manage. Can you explain why people can hunt him in Idaho? The road you hear the voice of to give you give you a little bio real quick fishing guide, mediator, production assistant general paint in the ass right, but yeah, I want to get to that real. Have a question I think that's relevant right now, is what the goal all along was to get him off of the list, right, right? And when it's time to get him off the list, why would like Wyoming be pushing for it, and why would the feds be pushing for it. If they even were pushing for like, what do they get out of it? If if like they say, please do this, let's do this, and it does happen. So the states get something the feds get. So the states get on ship and you know, get management of their wildlife back, the ability to make management decisions and and deal with uh, you know, they can have hunting seasons, they can deal with damage problems, wolves, killing livestock, you know that sort of thing. The federal is mostly just like the ownership then of the regulation and the wildlife right and the manes all the wildlife anyways, right, and so from the federal government standpoint, it's an opportunity to say, here's an example where the Endangered Species Act worked. You know, we we had a listed species, we recovered that species, we got them off the list. We can move to the next thing and do it. See the Endangered Species Act works. So that's what the federal government gets out of it. Plus they get out of the management. I mean, they get the they can move on to other things, and their money doesn't have to go free up those dollars, that personnel, you know, all that stuff. Because the Nixon signed the Endangered Species Act in the law in they've listed about two thousand speed sees over that ye about now, and I think they've no species get off the list and a handful of ways that they don't want to get off. Where they realized they're extinct that's ten, or they realized that they messed up the count and found populations that they didn't know about. I thought, oh, they're not they're not endangered. You got the numbers good, or you're making them, or you actually recover them. And how many have recovered out of two tho roughly thirty four maybe thirty six have been recovered. Yeah, so there's a lot of works to be done, although I'd argue six that have come off the list to the recovery. There are other species on that list that have recovered. Wolves and example, we have talked to you guys that works on Cariboo in the lower forty eight and there's about fifteen. Right, So here we are, you got four hundred wolves whelming on. You know at the point we left off you want up right right? That's I mean, that's where we are today. Yeah, And so I was only we we've now had I think five different lawsuits since two thousand and four challenging the Fish and Wildlife Services attempts at delisting wolves in Wyoming. And we've been through so we've been through multiple rounds and and in one of them, and this will get to your question about about Idaho and Montana, So in one of them we have and this is a big controversy, but in Wyoming we put together a wolf management plan, you know, and all the states had to put together before there was delisting. All the states right had to put together a wolf management plan that said, once wolves are delisted, here's what we will do. And it needed to be endorsed by the Fish and Wildlife Service for the service to be able to move forward. And we had some lawsuits over our plan. The Service wasn't liking our plan, but ultimately we had a court say it was fine. The biggest tea, the biggest hang up in our plan was we we created a dual classification for wolves. So in northwest Wyoming, where most of the world, well, where all of our wolves are, we called them trophy game, which in Wyoming is limited to things like grizzly bears uh, wolves um, black bears, mountain lions uh they have a certain there's a there's there's certain thresholds to be able to hunt them. Yeah, if it's all there right now, big horns are just a game animal, just a big game anilso trophy game is treated a little different and they have, you know, different quotas that they've set up, and they manage them a little different. So it's more heavily regulated. And so that's how they were classified there. In the rest of the state, outside of this trophy game area, we classified wolves as predators and in Wyoming, like coyotes, in Wyoming predators you don't need a license. It's open season. Um you know, no license, no season, you go out and shoot as many wolves as you see in the predator zone. And that was they didn't like it, But we did have a federal judge say, look, the the objective here is to recover wolves. The plan that Wyoming's written still meets the requirements for having a recovered wolf population, and they just have a different way of doing business than Idaho and Montana. Um so, so they moved forward with a d listing rule with that management plan. Well, a different federal judge didn't much care for, uh, for our management plan. Uh. And so the what ended up happening, I guess is that the Service wound up moving forward with trying to delist just in Idaho and Montana because there were problems with our plan and uh in Idaho and Montana. UM what that went to litigation as well, and the court there said, uh, you cannot delist in just those two states. You know, they tried to create what was called a distinct population segment UH, which is another provision under the Endanger Species Act to delist these wolves. UH. That didn't include Wyoming, and they said, you cannot, right, you cannot draw the judge so you cannot draw a DPS distinct population segment on political boundaries. It has to be biological boundaries. These wolves are moving across state lines. And so that's when Congress got involved. Uh. So they struck down the judge struck down the rule to delist in Montana and Idaho, and Congress got involved and reinstated that rule and made it uh litigation proof. So put the rule back in place, litigation proof. They be that rule then meant those wolves in Montana and Idaho were delisted. The ones in Wyoming stayed on. We got another rule to de list in Wyoming in two thousand and twelve, the service put forward another rule to de list in two thousand twelve. We actually had management authority for two years. UH. At that point, you guys ran two wolf seasons. We did, and actually, in at least in our first wolf season, we never actually met our quota. Turns out wolves get really smart after being shot at for a day or two, and they get real hard to find. Was the quota? Oh, I think the total quota. I'm gonna I'm just gonna throw a number out there because I'm not gonna get it spot on, but around fifty uh, and I think we missed that by ten or so or fifteen uh in that first year. Second year, I don't think we hit the quota either. And then the court came out and UH vacated that rule and they went back on the list again. And actually last Friday we have the Fishing Wireless Service appealed that decision. UH, and last Friday we had arguments on that in d C. And it was kind of funny that the judge and that not funny in a hahaway, but the the judge and that in that district court case in d c didn't argue that the that wolves had actually recovered, said, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna dispute the services decision or determination that wolves in Wyoming have recovered. Her biggest problem was that our wolf management plan wasn't it wasn't adopted in regulation or statute, and so it wasn't it didn't have We made all these promises that she felt like we could just break, uh to maintain our wolf populations. Of course, in Wyoming, we say we don't want to go through the last twenty years again. Yeah yeah, uh so we I mean, we're gonna be pretty conservative and we're going to manage these wolves and we're gonna have wolves well into the future because we don't want to go through what we've had to go through the past twenty years. It is possible that it could happen. Oh yeah, I mean, like it's like, there's nothing preventing relisting from happening. Well, it's except having enough wolves. I mean that's what I'm saying. Like, in a legal way, if all of a sudden they were all gone, they just get relisted right now, they're all gone. If they if they got below a threshold, well if the population started creating. Yeah, there's two ways. I mean, the service couldn't look at it themselves and say, you know, Wyoming, you're not doing a good job the populations created. We're we're we're gonna have to do it ourselves and relist ourselves. Or uh, you know, somebody, anybody could file a petition, uh with the Fishing Wilife Services and say, relist these wolves. They're struggling. Um, we don't think that that's gonna happen. I mean we we think we've proved in the two years we managed the wolf population, Wyoming remains strong and way over objective. So so who has me? Like what's going on in Montana and idhol Right now? They have Montana and Idaho they're managing wolves. They it's the states of there's state animals. Now there's state wolves. But you guys have not gotten the back. We have not gotten why But why won't We're stubborn? But why not capitulate. What's the argument for just saying like, Okay, what does the plan they have? How did they get management? Why don't we mirror that plan and get management? Every state's different, we have our own priorities. You're you're taking your your your approach is that you're like, no that we're right, Oh, go ahead, I have the answer. Okay, if it's a goofy answer, don't tell me. Okay you later. Then does it have anything to do with Montana and Idaho managing them as game animals that you gotta buy tags for and Wyoming calling them predators and it's just a free for all? That that was ultimately the reason why uh why Montana and Idaho got there and we didn't. So off Wyoming got control back. Would they handle it more like Montana where you got to buy a tag and it's a game animal and no, we I mean we have we have a management plan. I mean, this dual classification system has been signed off on by judge right now. The problem is do we have it? You know, are are the commitments we've made to maintain a certain population? Are they sufficient? That? Yeah? Yeah? That also that's where it still is that now, Yeah, yeah, that's that's like whether it's whether it's been adopted into the sort of rigid enough sense of the law. Can the states be trusted? I mean that's what it was down. Can the states be trusted to maintain this population. This is coming right back around to the company the overarching issues. You started with wolves. But when you look at these environmental laws, we just talk about wolves in my opinion. You know, the same groups that sue Wyoming, you know they're gonna see Wyoming no matter what. They just needed to you know, they needed a reason to do that. Those guys, they don't want anybody hunting wolves. They don't want Montana and Idaho hunting wolves. They don't want anybody hunting bears. They don't want you know, it's just that's that's not the priority, and so favorite animals. And when you look at so you look at what you know, it wasn't an issue how many wolves there were. You know, it's an issue of hunting wolves. And when you look at you again found out foundational pieces of environmental law. These these laws that came together. Everybody's like, hey, let's work together. Is a big team to protect this stuff. Endangered Species Act, Honestly, the Clean Water Act is so similar to it and how it kind of came about and works that it's I mean, they're really all these laws are very similar. But when you have every when you have a big group come together saying let's keep water clean, Let's work as a team, let's save alms, let's work as a team. And you have you know, there are some folks that that's you know, they don't have the same I mean, I think that these laws and we see people pushing against these laws and saying they don't work anymore. It's not that the laws don't work anymore. It's that, you know, we have to find a way to get back to the original intent of the laws, to get back to what when Congress built them, what Congress hadn't mind, because that's how you get everybody on board, rather than having the law become a tool for uh a minority viewpoint, If that makes sense. Yeah, that that's the point I've made a handful of times. What happened a discussion is that people, I feel have taken well meaning laws like the Endangered Species Act and sort of weaponize them where you use it as a tool, where you're not talking about what the intent of it is. You're talking about how you can use it as a way to to pursue some goal. And I feel as though I said as many times, I feel as though you wind up uh, delegitimizing the Act like if you say, it just pains me to think that someone would would kill a grizzly Berger, So in order to save Risley bears, I will take something like the the E s A and sue on grounds of how you're interpreting the E s A when you're not really talking about the Endangered Species You're not talking about the function of the Endangered Species Act. You're talking about that you don't want someone to kill bears, which would be I would suggest in that case you should pursue some whole other thing like um, My Favorite Animal Act or America's Most Cuddly Seeming Animals Act, by which you could just pursue your goals in a way that you're you're actually articulating what it is you're after, rather than using it. You know as well as not has has not intended to you know, these are they're really challenging issues. But the reality is, and I think that this is where we have a great opportunity right now. I think people have seen I think people are tired of they're tired of divisiveness. I think we've all seen issues out there where you know, we've we've seen how it doesn't work to just get on opposite sides of the table, put a problem in between us, and then just argue about who whose fault it is. And I think I honestly believe the majority of people now we're you know, we, you know, the pragmatic problem solvers. I think most of us are that. I think most people are that. I think we have a unique opportunity with these at this point in time to get people who are like all these people sitting around this table now, who are just saying, hey, you know what, let's make everything work, you know, because these things are too important to fail at. You know, they're too important to fail at. And and you see, you know, you know, I I'm a fan. I listened to a lot of your stuff, and I think, you know, pick the environmental law, pick the issue. You're always going to be able to find, whether it's on this side over here, on left side of that side over there on the right side, you're gonna be able to find voices who are out there that are on those those far you know, opposite sides of an issue. And unfortunately, I think it's too easy right now to get on Facebook and become friends with people that only believe exactly what we believe and then to believe that you know that that's exactly what you should be doing, when in reality, I think if we could all back away and look, you know, and not demonize everybody's opinions or their point of view based on the outliers that are within their community, we find that we all actually do want the same thing still. We all want healthy wildlife populations. And whyoming you know, we believe we have the local knowledge and we've proven it to know how to manage those things correctly to keep them there. We all want clean water, you know, we all want fish in that clean water. Um, but you you have to at some point step back and trust the people who are on the ground that have the local expertise, and trust them with the ability to manage and ultimately get their buy in, whether it's the private landowner buy in or the local government buy in, because it is the buying of those people living in those ecosystems with those issues that's what ensures the success of that species. That's what ensures that that stream gets fixed. It's not a law, it's not a regulation. It's not people who write a check from in place far away. It's people who want to come and fix the issues on the ground today and live with those issues and make sure that they're kids like my kids. You know, I have a six year old and the three year old. Man. I'm going into the wilderness to hunt elk on Thursday. Yeah, we're exactly going. Yeah, well, I'll tell you the wilderness the exact coordinates. It's right next to Colorado, right, David. Okay, maybe I won't tell you. How much do you guys file? How much you guys follow the UH wolf fishing to other states? I follow? Are you talking? You're going Western Great Lakes on me? I want to talk. Well, let's talk about Western Gray Lakes, which is where I'm from, or where you say Northern Great Lakes or the Mexican gray wolf like Mexican gray wolf. But no, because this brings up a point you're talking about with with state and federal stuff. So the Mexican gray wolf smaller than a Northern gray wolf. They used to range in New Mexico, Arizona, Western tech Us, Northern Mexico UH one extinct. They got listed around the same time. Yeah, I released mid seventies. Okay, then you wind up having I would say that in a national sense you had overwhelming public support for reintroduction of the gray wolf, and under the idea that if you had a species, we have a species of wildlife that when extinct due to human causes, so we brought it to extinction. A lot of people feel that that would mean you have a moral obligation to correct to right. You're wrong if assuming that, like the God given animals that live on the planet should be present, that's like a basic assumption. People said, if we accept that that's true, that we don't have the right to drive things to extinction. We needed to right the wrong. Overwhelming public support. Now, I would say generally when it comes to the Mexican gray wolf, you've had generally, um, the States kind of dragging their heels about this. There's a recent fight going on where not too long ago, they had some animals in there, and the Feds have been doing reinroductions using with state permits. So they would do renin inductions, they would get state permits. They weren't able to secure some state permits and went and dumped into a couple more wolves just on their own without state approval. I gotta slap on the wrist about it, all right, But in a case like that, wouldn't you say that the Feds are sort of pursuing a national interest on federal property, almost in conflict with people who have a local interest. But they if you ask them, if you have the people acting on that bad if they would say that, well, our mandate is to the people of the nation. So but but how do you feel, like, how do you rectify those two things, because I'm wondering how were like people generally want to accept like a local person, right, a local person has sort of a you know, it should be allowed like a reasonal amount of say in issues that affect his backyard. But we also have the bigger picture. Meaning if I pollute a stream in my yard and I just say, but it's my stream, it's my property, someone might say, but where does the water go? Right, it goes down into my place. So you're not just acting on your place, You're acting on everyone's place. Like in a case like that, when you look at me like and and personally, I support the idea that I think states do a good job of managing wildlife that's on the in the here and now. States to a phenomenal job of managing wild if found the ground. That's right here. But what about these cases where overwhelmingly people want grizzly bears, they want wolves, and you have a state that kind of is is up front in the beginning of the process, not into the idea. Then all of a sudden they get there against that states will You can see how the FEDS would then say, I'm a little reluctant to hand this over to you because you guys didn't want this to happen. Do you remember, like how do you feel about that? Like that situation where does the switch occur? Yeah, where the state says you're right, I didn't, but they're here now and I promise. So so that's where the I think the Endangered Species Act comes into play, right, Yeah? So yeah, and that I mean that brings us back to wolves in Wyoming. I think that's where you're going, right, And well, anything in Mexico, you know, you know, I don't Arizona. I probably won't talk about that too. I'm very comfortable with the microcol with it's an analogy, right, and and so in Wyoming, yeah, we we very clearly didn't on them. Uh but because of what, because of what reasons? Just be just be Frank, I mean because you have a huge Like you guys have what what percents your industries last, Well, it's our third largest industry in the state, behind energy and tourism and then agriculture, and so yeah, there are a lot of grazing allotments up in the National Forest and Northwest Wyoming. Uh. It's also uh the impacts to sportsmen, especially on large angulus, so elk moves deer hunters, that's a primary food source for wolves. And so there was a lot of fear and it turns out some rightful fear in what what bringing wolves back into Northwest Wyoming might do to some of those angul population. Man, they I mean how many you got four hundred outside of the the park. The seven pounds me today counting the park, that counts the park. I mean they eat seven pounds of me today. So I mean you've seen this right Montana, Yeah, the elk herd. I moved to Montana. The elk herd my brothers still hunts the same el Kurt he's hunting one third the number of elk to use hunted nine to night. It's been real interesting living in northern Colorado, watching what's happened up there because pretty much everyone in northern Colorado has a wolf story. Who knows if they're there or not. But but yeah, you want to don't have Colorado. But it's been interesting watch because Colorado just wrote a preemptive wolf management plan based on the Mexican gray wolf and based on what's happened up here. And the gist of the plan was is we don't want we will absolutely not put up with any kind of reintroduction program. If they make it here naturally, so be it, but we do not want wolves reintroduced in Colorado. And that and that wolf management program, as far as I know, was approved and it's so it's a lot of it I think was politically driven, just seeing the kind of the ship storm that revolves around wolves. But you know, because they're worried about that, you are they down? Are they they've been confirmed? Siding I know they're in Colorado. Yeah, no, they've they've been wolves in Colorado. Are they have they set up packs? I don't really answer to that. So the reluxtance livestock, what it's gonna do to large ungulate And then I think, you know, just to be frank, having the federal government for something. It's a trust issue. I mean, at the heart of it, it's a trust issue where you know, I've got a great friend who's got a big ranch up uh, you know, right outside the thoroughfare in Wyoming and just beautiful place. Uh go hunt there, everyone, Um, Actually, don't go hunt there, go on someplace else. I'll be there next week. Beautiful, beautiful, beauty flurry. But I mean, you know, you talked to this guy, and you know he lives with these prejutoricses backyard every day and his number one goal, you know what it is make sure that ranch gets passed down to his kids, is to keep his lifestyle going. And so we kind of demonize these folks and the reality is these honestly, these guys, it doesn't matter whether they're raising cows or whether they raising horses, or whether they were raising bears. The fact is if you let them keep their lifestyle going, you let them keep that place economically viable. I mean, that's what's important to them. You know, it's not they're not out there, you know, trying to make biological decisions for everybody. They just want somebody to come in and and honestly ruin their life and I've got a good friend and said, hey, look I love fish. I love you know, wildlife, and you know, between water and fish, I'm gonna put some water from some water in my ditch. So we always have fish. But don't make it between my life and the fish. You know. There's another value to that too, uh, And it's for wildlife habitat. Northwest Wyoming is a pretty popular place for people to move, you know, Jackson holds so forth. The having these landowners that are able to continue their livelihood and pass their ranches down to future generations allows a buffer between you know, the federal land, the wilderness areas, and your you know, highly fragmented ranch at type of developments and communities. So you create this buffer habitat. So it's pretty important and and I think we recognize that. And you know the other thing we've done for wolves, to help these landowners and to help this happen is by state law. If they can, If if we can send somebody from our game and fish out and confirmed that their livestock has been killed by a wolf, we'll pay for Sportsmen are paying for it. Even though you don't have management. Even though we don't have management, we still compensate our landowners. You guys put the bill for that. We put the bill, not the federals, the states. We do it for grizzly bears, we do it for wolves, um, and then we do it for other species. To elk, you know, get into a haystack, we'll compensate the landowner for that. But one of those wolfs, why don't you guys just say, hey, it's not my problem, you know what, because it is our problem still. Yeah, I mean, the federal government is admirable to doing it, but I just wouldn't. I can't believe that it winds up being your financial respont. The federal government is not going to come in and do it. They don't have the money to run a wolf management program anyway. They definitely don't have the money to to pay landowners for the type of damage we're talking about, you know, million dollar numbers a year in uh damage. That that's a huge misconception. I think that somehow, because these laws exist, that the federal governments come with the checkbook and taking care of all these issues, whether it's on impaired streams, whether it's you know, wolf or bear. Honestly, private landowners and states are the ones that they're paying to fix these issues. You know, that's where the majority of the money is coming from. I think that shows a commitment from Wyoming too to having the wolves on the landscape. Is the fact that you know, we're doing everything we can to make our landowners whole, uh, which in turn build some some goodwill and and support, you know, at least some support for having wolves there from landowners if they know they're at least being made whole for their losses. Uh. You know, we've been doing this for years with grizzly bears. Last year, I think we spent one point two million dollars on damage claims on compensating landowners for losses to livestock from grizzly bears. We don't have management authority at all over grizzly bears. Uh, but we're still paying for it. Yeah. So so. But but I want to get back to one point. What do you think about all this so far? Oh? Hi, Steve, nothing, I just uh, it drives me crazy. What does the whole fact that the federal government tells the states what they could do? I don't what does that? How could that be true? It's true because it's in my head. It's true. I mean, but I mean, but it's a it's a state, it's a state of way ow me. How does the federal government even because we're in the United States of America. I know, But they put the wolves up in Yellowstone. Didn't they ever think about the fact that they're gonna just migrate out of there? Yeah, I'm sure they knew what they were gonna, know, somebody with a dream catcher. I thought it was a good idea. I hate wolves. I'm sorry. I'm a dog. I'm a dog guy. But wolves are dogs, I know. But they kill dogs. And come on, they kill a lot of dogs. No, yeah, they Okay, yeah, they'll kill some dogs, know what I'm saying. Come on about I still think it's fair, that's fine. I still love you. I still love you. I just think that's a wrong statement. Okay. I just wish we wouldn't have meddled with it in the first place. Where could they be they'd be I don't know, there's a there's a lot of they would have probably Okay, they came into northern Montana, they would probably be down there anyway. I live in Michigan. Yeah, they would they came into Michigan. They didn't get reintroduced in the year home state, Your home states, Illinois. There's no reintroduction in Michigan. There's no reintroduction in Minnesota. There's no reintroduction Wisconsin. Why they came in on their own? Why are they only picking areas where the sports been used more ground and there's less they're putting wolves because those are areas that are suitable for wolves. Because one of the things that makes them suitable for wolves is like they don't get in trouble every five minutes. It's like, so we're gonna put something into this, and no one put it in there. They came in on their own. They were there. They were there. Okay, if you looked at at the time of at the time of Columbus's arrival in the West Indies, wolves were everywhere, right and they were in all the places we're discussing. They were extra pated for good reason. I don't know. I don't want to put a value judgment at the time for what seemed like a very good reason. At the time, it seemed like a great reason. But I mean, people's mentality shift over time. But yeah, at the time, it was like here's the thing that competes for my interests, and and we, like all species are, are a selfish species. So now I think that the arguments focused on most places. You know, I made this play with grizzy bears. Grizzly bears were native from the Missouri very roughly from the Missouri River to the Pacific coast. No one's talking about that we need grizzlies in in park. Okay, well, yeah, there's if you're gonna pull Americans, or if you're gonna like get a bunch of ecologists together. They would say that the argument has has found its way into talking about ways where you have what might be defined by some as suitable habitat when they can come in and get a toe hold on their own, which is what we're seeing with mountain lions that are pushing east. No one's doing mountain lion re introduction reintroductions. They're they're they're doing it on their own, Okay, very effectively. Right now, Wolves in the Northern Great Lakes did it on their own, just crossing the ice and came down from Ontario northern Montana the same way here they some people came in, and maybe they now regret it, but they came in and sort of made a little jump and put them on a on a little island of land, and not an island, but an island of land that people in the US tend to. There's a thing I've identified recently is Yellowstone syndrome. It's what happens when the only thing you know about wildlife comes from Yellowstone Park. When you went to Yellowstone, your mom and dad, or ship you watched it was filmed in Yellowstone, and that's your entire idea of wilderness and wildlife. You know. The governor, you know, is one of the statements he always says, it's not that we don't like these things, but we are not a zoo. We live here, and I think that for us, you know, I mean, it comes back. There's a misconception that again the States somehow, if you, you know, hand these animals over the States, it's all gonna happen all over and they're gonna be gone. That's just not true. It's not it's not true because you would be because the hammer is over your head. You know. I think that I know you. I don't like that, and that's not that I don't really like the way I put it. But that's a factor, right it is. No, No, the I mean, the Endanger Species Act does some good things. I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and argue that it's not maybe the most impact full federal law from a species protection standpoint out there. Uh No, I think it's a really strong case to be made that that is not working that well. Right, No, it's it's not, it's not, you know, I like to I would like to tell people I think the Endangered Species Act is you know, think of it as a nice new car that you bought, you know, in nineteen seventy three, and it it's and you loved it, and you treated it, treated it well for a little while, and then you started neglecting it, and then it went through this horrible hail storm. So all the parts are the same, but it's it's been kind of messed up and it and it needs a little bit of work because I mean, frankly, the the hammer is not it's not necessarily a bad thing to have, uh to have at least, I don't want to use the word hammer. But you have the E s A out there, so it's a it's a motivator, you know. The SA is kind of a motivator. You want to do the right thing. Anyway, the e s A as a motivator to make sure you do the right thing because on a state's right standpoint, you don't want him to go back on the list. Um. And frankly, right now that with the way the e s A works, when things go on the list, they just don't come off. And so that's a pretty good that's a pretty good motivator to not want anything that you don't have on the list right now to get there, which is why we were so proactive with stage grouse, for example, and why the Midwestern states were so proactive with lesser prairie chicken um. And you're seeing a lot more proactive voluntary conservation efforts all over the country and particularly in the West, for species that aren't even listed yet to keep them from getting there. But we still have the problem of how do we get things like wolves and bears off the list when they've so obviously met these recovery criteria, you know, how do we get them off the list? How do we get them back to state control? And I think one of the biggest hurdles right now is you have instead of instead of the s a being interpreted uh biologically, it's being interpreted socially and emotionally. Yeah, that's right. And you have a lot of judges now uh that that pull those social uh impacts or social thoughts into their decision making on what are really what really should be biological questions. Biologically, wolves have recovered in Wyoming, Biologically, grizzly bears have recovered in Wyoming. Socially, taking those off the list is frankly very unpopular outside of the inner inner Rocky Mountain West. Oh yeah, especially with grizzly bears. There's outside of the West, there's there is not a lot of support uh for delisting grizzly bears because of exactly what you said, this this Yellowstone syndrome. People think of grizzly bears in the greater Yellowstone area as the grizzly bears of Yellowstone, Golden gate Bridge. I mean people that that's you know, when you don't again, it's it's respecting the knowledge problem. Somebody who doesn't live in those you know, in close proximity or or immerse themselves frequently in that just I mean, they really don't have a real idea of what it looks go. No, I don't know if they know they're in grizzly bear country. I mean, if they're country, but it makes them feel good and I respect this. You know, somebody who lives in New York, you know, they want to feel like they want to feel like there's wild places that have bears someplace, and so hearing that somebody might take away it's hearing somebody might take away bear. I mean they mean you look outside, you know. I can imagine if if I lived in d C. There's nothing I don't want to except escape every weekend to Wyoming, so I can be in the mountains, you know, and people want to know that's there, and so they want that protected. But there's not a lot of you know, I think we all need to. I think we'd all agree there needs to be respect for the knowledge problem, which is that when you are removed from that thing, you're not right there with it. You gotta respect that the people who are on the ground who are managing that every day probably have a better idea than you the best way to management. So if you give them guidance, and that's what the SA is, that's what the clean wires react is. It's strong guidance. You gotta step back and let him work with it. You got to trust them to do that. And the challenge now, I think is that people aren't trusting states to make the final calls on those things. They're not trusting them to do the work that these acts allow them to do and put them in the position to be able to do. Instead, people who live miles away, who don't open their window and see that stream every day or see that bear, they want to make the calls and what's occurring with those things at the end of the day, even though they don't really know the way. Kind of my overall of you on it. A couple of things like I'm a firm believer in the scientific process, so I get a little bit uneasy when um things like what is it recovered species? What is an endangered species? Becomes the falls under the purview of just emotional decision making about what's my favorite animal or what animal do I like to look at the most, because I think that we have had if you look at the US in terms of our total population, our g MP, everything, it's um, it's kind of miraculous that we have the wildlife that we do like, no one's no, no other countries managed to even come close to what we've managed. And the way we've done it is by managing through scientific like scientific pursuits. Okay, we we use biologists very well. We have systems in place by which we ascertain population levels, make decisions about what sort of harvest can be pulled from that in order to take into account everyone's needs from wildlife viewing the people who rely on wild meats for food to have, you know, to having like genetically viable populations, we've done a pretty fantastic job. I'm not saying when you compare it to like what your dream scenario is, but when you compare it to actual countries that around the actual earth, no one comes close. Now, A big part of that recipe of success, recipe for success has been state management of wild life. One could always go and look and look and say like, oh, yeah, but wolves went um wolves went extinct, So our wolves were extirpated from some of these states. So they haven't done a good job. But that problem was occurring before these places became a state. Elo Leopold has his you know, has his famous epiphany that he that he gives in san County Almanac, which occurs when he was down and I believe in New Mexico doing some wolf depredation. He was down in New Mexico, and New Mexico is a US territory killing wolves for the federal government. So when we're now look and want to blame states on past sins were oftentimes blame, it would be like me getting pissed at you about something your grandfather did. It is like a common thing that happens. The buffalo was driven to extinction when these were U S territories. It didn't happen under state management. So the idea of sort of like scientifically based state wildlife management agencies that came after the problems that these states are still trying to rectify when we have had the federal government come in and I would argue, different than some of the people in this room, for sure, the same as some of the people in this room, and different than some of them, I would argue that we do have an obligate that that it's a moral wrong to drive animals to extinction. At times, I think that the federal government has done It's just me talking, not defined David. I think the federal government has done. The kind of things that the federal government does well is stepping in with a lot of power and a lot of money and doing some big picture things to try to move things along. And I think that in some cases they've done good things in terms of wildlife, because I am the rare middle ground where I feel that we should have grizzly bears, we should have wolves, and they should be managed as a renewable resource by the states which are white. Point out the state of Wyoming is right now and has been very successfully managing white tailed deer, mule deer, elk moose, black bears, mountain lions, big horn sheep, mountain goats. I said mountain lions, wrong, horn saiday, antelope didn't. I. Okay, we're not stage grouse. We're not trying something new here. People who worry about states management act like, oh my goodness, what's the state gonna do? But it's like they're already doing all of that, So it's not outlandished to act like that that we would use the system that has served us very well in the modern age and not try to blame people and things that happened when they weren't even a state. Do you know who started all that. No, please tell me states the very first game laws. You know, when you had when you were losing passenger pigeons, when you were losing bison, when you were losing deer, uh, antelope, elk wasn't the federal government that came in and passed a bunch of game laws to to build these populations back up as states first first white tailed deer laws came. I think they were in New York. Uh. Yeah. It was states responding to these types of activities that led to the development of the North American model you're talking about, and and led to the recovery of pronghorn from as few as twenty five thousand to now well over a million. I believe that we have in pronghorn, same thing with elk. Uh. You just go down the list of the species, the local territorial government. There was a guy trying to ban dynamite fishing for trout in Montana before the Little Big Horn massacre. At you point out the Custer lived to be older than Laramie. You know, I used to live right after Custar hit thirty seven. Larry died at thirty six. Larry may have died a better death. Oh dude, So we don't know, we know, we know, having to George Armstrong. So but that's my take on it. It's and it's like, yeah, I just feel like there's a there's a misconception with people who live outside of wilderness state. Let's just I don't know, like states, a lot of wildlife wilderness states, is that they want to look and be like, like, you come from a state where everything's destroyed. You know, your your native wildlife is not intact. It has no chance of even being attacked. No one's even having a conversation about putting wolves back into Maryland. Like it's not even on anyone's radar. It can't even be approached conversationally. So but you want look and say that I wouldn't want that to happen here because you know, but out there those people that still have intact mega fauno and they have all of their species running around. And in the case of Wyoming, that has like what is mathematically regarded as the most remote area in the lower forty eight United States. And I'm giving a hint and he's already named it. Just remember, if you want to hunt wilderness in Wyoming, you have to have a guide. Yeah, if you're from out of states, if you call wilderness getting far away from the road, Wyoming has the biggest piece of wilderness in lower forty eight. So why is the state villainized in the outside perspective as being they can't Oh, they're gonna mess it up. It's like based compared to what compared to who? Well and one other point, so we have you mentioned before species on the endangered species list, Wyoming this most state with all the wilderness and the most most remote place. I think of those dred we have twelve, and and some of them are shared by other states, and some of them are plants species, and a couple of them we think are recovered in Chica that we've been talking about. Off that list, that's pretty solid. We have got the tenth largest state by area in the country, and we have twelve. I couldn't tell you, but I can tell you Hawaii has almost five hundred. I can tell you California has three hundred and fifty something like that. Uh. You know, those those two states combined have something like a third of all listed species. Uh. Wyoming has twelve. Uh. You go to places and that's an it's an aspect of this that boggles my mind where you think that more people would look and it would be like, what are those boys doing. I mean there's a lot of like like economic factors that I don't want to simplified. There's a ton of economic factors. But I also think that it's like as far as finding a way to balance human needs, you guys have good spending on public schools relative to other states. I feel I don't live in Wilming, but I feel bad for I feel bad for you guys on the grizzly issue, and I feel bad for you guys on the wolf fish. We appreciate that doesn't change your sympathy. Yeah, but no, you're right, You're right. I mean, it's uh, it's a frustrating place to be where we feel like we can we can point to example after example of example of what we do right and how we do balance all of the competing needs in the state and what happens. People come from all over the country and all over the world to view our wildlife. Our tourism is our second largest industry. And they're not coming here to look at an oil rig or a coal mine. They're coming here because of our wild life. Yet somehow we can't be trusted to manage two species of wildlife that we have shown and for grizzly bear, for example, we've been the boots on the ground the past forty years. It's been the State of Wyoming that's been leading the charge on recovering grizzly bears. Yet we're not trusted that we can then do it once they're delisted, that will continue uh to manage these once they're delisted. It's it's a very frustrating thing, uh, to to have folks that don't live here, that have never been here tell us what we are and are not capable of, when they don't really understand what we do and what we've done. Yeah, man, any concluding thoughts, I just want to talk about Dave's rifle. It's fantastic. They they you're you're you're hunting luddite. Oh yeah. Dave was saying, if you wanted to get to a four yard shot, you'd have to add up how many of the last about about probably probably four or five maybe more no nos. To get to a one yard shot, you have to add up probably the last three elk I've killed to get to this. Man like, honestly, he deserves some kind of a trophy. So if people are out there, please I mean, I'm not I don't know whether you should idolize him or you know, but man, my goodness, this guy is gun he's shooting a gunnygout and he's fourteen years old. And while I wanted in a raffle, actually my dad wanted in a raffle and gave it to me. Still shooting a hand me down. Oh yeah yeah, shoulder strap broke. I hold it together with a zip tie. I carry extras in my pack. So is it like but is this like, are you making a point I don't about, honey, or is it just like a general like life view you have about If it's like that, you just have you have respect for things that functioned, and yeah, you know you not what you don't want to take part in the disposable. I mean I I've killed a lot of animals with that gun and and the other things that I use. Uh, I mean I I have a seventy dollar scope on it. You don't need a scope when you're up putting the rifle right in there side. She got a hole and I'm a little cheap I'm a little cheap. That's the fact. Okay, okay. So it's the hunting thing, if you had to pick a word, it's a hunting thing like sort of um like the hunting gear thing, reverence for sort of objects that are around in your life you'd like to have. Continuity is the us that you hate to spend money. So it's a combination. But my wife would tell me it's the latter. Yeah, she'll tell you I'm the cheapest person. She knows. Part of it is there's a sentimental attachment to some of the stuff I've got, you know, and it takes me back to when I was a kid hunting with my dad. I still wear I got My dad bought me a vest when I started hunting in Wyoming, an orange vest reversible you know, sold you Yeah, that's what. Yeah, thirty seven, I still wear that same vest. Uh. Zipper doesn't work. Uh oh the zipper broke ten years ago. Uh it's I mean, it's all it's faded. It's it's like a worn traffic cone instead of you know, bright orange. Uh. Is that legal? Probably? Not. Yani got remanded. Yanni got reprimanded. He got he got reprimanded. Not fined but reprimanded for his orange being a little too old. What state were you? I think Brody might have actually been with Remember it was his hat, his hat. The guy was like, you know, next year, Toy said, yeah, He's like, next year it might be too bad. Something like that. We might be talking about, right. Um, a guy there's a there's a friend of mine, Robert Abernathy. He's a big turkey hunter and he uses really old stuff. But it's kind of to him. It be sort of became. Um it's large response to like disposable culture. It's like it's like a person of rebellion against this idea that that you just that you just need. You know, I don't have that problem. I'm like fixated that I love that kind of stuff. I like checking stuff out. You know, I would love things. So I think it's because I'm so cheap. I would love if people would buy me a bunch of stuff, I'd probably use it. But like my backpack, the pack I've used for the past ten years. It was my computer bag in law school. I just repurposed it. It's now it's now my hunting my tape. Yeah, unt together, this is why it just doesn't work. Yeah, I saw you don't hunt the part that holds the laptop. I just that's where I put my knives in my Uh. I'm the opposite into the spectrum. I don't have a lot of time, so I'll drink. I'll drink a pumpkin. I'll refill it when it's done with a two later bottle. I'm the cheapest guy. My friend I have a I guess he's kind of a friend. There's a there's a person I used to me friends with, and she married this dude named Chris. And I saw a hunting picture for Chris had really old, old little hunting clothes on, and I, because of my occupation and whatnot, I tend to have a lot of hunting clothes laying around. And I asked her. I said, hey, I noticed that Chris is you know, threads are looking a little thin. Would he is he making a point? Or would he like me to send him over a box studs? And she pointed out that he's making She's not entirely sure what it is, but he's making some sort of point. Hey, this gets worse for Dave. I mean, this is the sad thing about David. This is a guy who's the lead attorney for game and Fish right? I mean for years he's on the like the team for Safari Club. Where's your fathering in my work, Dave? I won't go into that. I don't want to pimp product, but you know at that point that you know that suggested me he's harboring a drug and alcohol gambling problem and that's where all this money is gone. So that's your same best. That's my best. Slide through a couple of pictures there, he'll see me go, He'll see it go through time really see you know, you know, the wrong going the wrong way, go the other way? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll see some other pictures pop up. I think my concern is what's like like, I have tons of respect for the man's game, but he's gonna teach some hunter is going to see this and think that's what you're supposed to do. You have a lot of people out there with hypothermia. You're gonna have. I like it, though, I must say, yeah, I can't say I'm gonna start doing that, but I do appreciate it. But I was hoping you're gonna hit me some some real philosophical stuff. I got no I'm just, I'm just, but this man has a whole warrant to the bottom with Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's it's true, it's true. But I mean there is some philosophical more sentimentality philosophy. You know. It's a lot of the stuff that I hunt with, the stuff that my dad gave me. Uh, you know when I art a hunting and an extent I can still use it. That means a lot because it makes me remember those moments. And yeah, but vest I have he had, he had the same that it fits. It fits. You still have a boyish you still have a boyish frame. Yeah, thanks for that. I thought about this a lot with a guy we worked with, one of the camera guys who worked with working on a totally unrelated project in Africa, and he comes out and huntled us. So he also he's like in the jungle, having nothing to do with hunting at all, but he's filming in Africa, and some shots ring out in the in the brush and he's like, that's a familiar sound. And out of the woods steps of a fella. Hold in no shirt, paar of shorts, pair of flip flops, a shotgun, no bag or bag. They we forget a backpack like nothing but a gun, and he's got a big brush buck over his shoulder. And I did look at that, and I'm like, where have we gone that? This guy he's got like a pocketful of shells and goes out and I don't just dripping with gear, and I'm like stepping back in time for twenty years with my gear. But I get stuff every you know, every year, we can. You can do it both ways. You're more comfortable than I am because I've taken it upon myself. That's that's all relative. Man. I feel like when you when people say like, uh oh, you know, um mountain men were were so tough. I feel that this is the theory amount of pet theory of mine. I feel like they were just about as comfortable as we are there. I feel like their perception of comfort, like at any given moment, the relative perception of comfort, probably put their comfort right about where we think of our comfort. That's probably true. But I'll bet if I put on your rank gear, I'd be more comfortable in a rainstorm than when I wear my arms never had but you've only been wearing But because you've only been wearing garbage bags, your whole life. You don't know. Now, if you took my stuff away from me and gave me your stuff, I'd be uncomfortable because relative to my normal understanding of what I feel like, right, I think I think that discomfort Here's what I'm trying to say. I think the discomfort is always just sort of like what's your baseline, like what are you what? What comfort are you used to and where are you at compared to that. You know, if every day when you woke up, the first idea was hit your hand with a hammer right over time, your idea of how uncomfortable that is is gonna slowly change. Earlier, ask your concluding thought. Dave has an old gun. Every listening to Steve, he's talking about how he went to bomb Tana so to could go to school, so he could go someplace where this big game. I just want you to know, reminder, we are sitting at the highest altitude college football stadium in the nation. If you want place to go to school where you can go out and hunt elk on the weekend, you need to consider that it was it was just half a chance that I went there, not not quite, but I didn't know one thing from the other I was, I had got accepted kids to make that same mistake, Steve. I got accepted grad school in Colorado, and I got accepted at c s U, and I got accepted to graduate University of Montana, and I had a full ride at Colorado, and I had to pay at University Montana take out loans. I was clearly gonna go where I had a full ride. I met my friend, the late buddy mind Eric Kern and bow Nicky's Bar. Eric Kern had just come he was doing his PhD program in Montana. We went at bow Nicky's bar. He goes right around the time that O. J. Simpson was was driving his Bronco down the road with the helicopters over him, and everything is right around then it might even do that night. And he he swayed me just based on his knowledge of hunting and fishing in southwest Montana compared to the hunting and fishing he was hearing about from his buddy in Colorado. So I'm like, you know what, that's all I needed to hear. I'm gonna switch and told him no, told turn down the thing there and went here. I now say I used to always say like I'll wind up back there, I now say, I will. I like if when people like if you can move anywhere and you didn't have to deal with the things that you deal with work, family. Um, I've now switched it where I say here. Well, that's the right answer. You say Wyoming. That's that's what I now think and say, so I knowing that story and that Wyoming wasn't one of two choices you made totally arbitrary, as totally but as a as a University of Wyoming alumnus, myself and and CS Colorado State is a is a one of our principal rivals. I think you made the absolute right call to go to Montana rather entangled. You don't want to, you don't want to end up there. The better choice obviously would have been Wyoming. At least at least you got yourself a good education by going to Montana. But feeling the Colorado love, I never felt Colorado love from you. John Denver ruined it for me. I feel like John who stay at John Denver store. I was working in Grand Teton National Park and there's this place called Dornan's just north of Jackson on the border a Grand Teetow and they used to have a hoot in any of there. And John Denver showed up one time, just hammered and sang for the the whole player. That's what happens when magic happens. Not long before he wrecked is playing. Yeah, Yeah, I don't have a lot of Colorado love. I've never falt it. I'll tell you where it comes from. Um, this is one of the main things the someone was explaining to me, Like the day that uh, sort of like the day the Denver and Fort Collins became one city became you know, the day that they all of a sudden constituted like fifty one percent of the state's population. You lost for bear management. Well and and yeah, and I've always just had it's always just such a bad things, the bear thing, the ref bear referendum. Yeah, it's like you have the people least likely to be dealing with critters. Um, it's a bit of a California feel, Yeah, mandating to the people most likely to be dealing with critters about how they should go about dealing with those critters. Kind to say, I thankful for the companies like Magpole and Hives and thunderbe Storms who who made the smart decision to move across the border Wyoming. And for the rest of you who are still in Colorado, the doors are openly. Come on, why don't you tell him to stay out? Okay, you gotta work for this. I would say that I state, like Montana is in danger of the same thing. Oh yeah, it will happen in my lifetime. I'll be time. But oh yeah, man, when I used to hang out Montana, I remember when. No, it'll be yeah, I think yeah, I think that you know, Bowsman will become Denver. Yeah, is that your concluding thought? Yeah? I want more color more Colorado love from you, especially start especially in like a month and a half. If I have a good hunt down there. The last time I hunted in Colorado, um my goodness, I think that wasn't Colorado, Dude, that was not Colorado's fault at all. You have a bad hunt anywhere. I don't know, Man, talk to you after this weekend. I think you're gonna have a hard time here. Really, they're all great, Dave, including thoughts. Uh, you know what? Uh? One one thing I maybe I have to one. I really do want to thank the university owing for letting us use this place. Uh, so this is the best location. It's uh, it's great. Uh. But second thing I want to I want to thank you Steve for uh, you know that article you wrote in the New York Times and Grizzly Bears. Uh. You know, we needed a voice like that, you know, to talk about how important it is, uh to recognize that there are other people in this country that are trying to manage species and that it can be done the right way, and that we're doing it the right way. And I guess my take home messages. I mean, I really think uh states in the West are trying to do what right by wildlife. Uh and and you know, regardless of whether they're listed species or not. And uh, I'm just it's a great place to be and uh, you know, appreciate you having us here and and thanks for taking up in interest in in some of these wyoming issues because it's they're becoming national issues. Oh yeah, man, No, I'm watching you guys because I like to watch the states that have the most to lose when it comes to wildlife rather than the states that are sitting on something where they're never I mean, it's just where it's unfathomable that they're ever going to put it back together again. This is where the this is where the interesting stuff is taking place in my mind here in a handful of other players. It's not color. I don't have a concluding thought. I've have a concluding question for you guys. Maybe you can make me feel better about it as a non resident hunter and it might want to come to Wyoming. Very good, very good point. What can I won't even ask you guys, can just answer it the question why? Why? Why is it that way? What's the question? Are you talking wilderness? Break it down? You honest? Well, I don't know if I break it down. But as far as I understand, in Wyoming, to hunt wilderness is a nonresident for big game, all game hunt hunt wilderness. Now camping wilderness? Can camp? Can't even upland birds can't. Can't. You have to be have a registered guide or it doesn't have to it doesn't so you have to have an outfit or guide or Wyoming resident uh with you resident guide? Yeah, that's something I loves. You don't understand. If you've got a buddy, yeah, you're good. If you know Dave Alaska, does you don't mind hunting dark timber with no skill. No, no, no, they have some seri for some species that Alaska has some species you have to be a guide or a relative like grizzly bear relative, big horn sheep. But you could. You could take me hunting in a wilderness as long as I don't charge because I'm not I'm not a licensed guide, so I can't charge you for it. But yeah, I could take fIF he won't spend it. Wyoming doesn't have that requirement. You know. Here it's so you know, you can get around the whole thing, not get around to get around the wrong way to put it. If if, if you're worth a Wyoming resident, you can hunt wilderness. Yeah, called haven't go out with you. I mean it's all it takes. You're not you're not kidding me or something. No, no, you gotta have Wyoming resident. And you know they can't be you can't be charged. They can't be charging you as an out. But they could be hunting to the count justly. You know, there's not guys not doing for profit. It's like, if you got a buddy that lives in Wyoming, you want to go hunt Wyoming. People do that all the time. Her friend comes over and again that's just wilderness, right, and there are some fantastic herres here. Don't overlook. For those of you who are looking at hunting in Wyoming, Wyoming has wilderness like locations that are not wilderness. So when you're looking at places like I don't want when like Capital w it has to be desert. Literally. I mean, there are a lot of there's a lot of general hunt areas here that are absolutely phenomenal, and I don't want to tell you where they are, but come find them, all right, And can you just explain maybe like what's the what's the thinking what you know without going into too much detail. I mean it's probably and I can't. I don't know the whole history of it, but Mike, this is my best guess. It's a way to protecting an industry, to to protect outfit their jobs and and in all fairness, the offer is the other issue too. It's like, you know, let's say I am going into and I'm not going to the thoroughfare next week to hunt elk, but I'm going to another wilderness area. So honestly those areas you know I'm going, I'm going sixteen miles back up into a place where I literally am going to see couple bears every day, and you know that's not a place to mess around with just you know, driving and being like, hey, you know what I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna wander up into that. Yeah. But but that that that argument loses me because you could live on the Idaho side of the border and spend your whole life hunting in wilderness or in the back country in Idaho, and then the second you step in Wyoming you said you're not qualified. You gotta have a you gotta have a guide. They're gonna be exceptions people in Wyoming. Yeah, but you have to give him some kind of test. I always saw, like in Alaska, the things you can't hunt without it, you have to have a relative or an outfitter. Are the things that happened to be the things you could get yourself in most troubling. Um, mountain gools, dollarshep grizzy beards, like the things you like, the things people are most likely to get tore up doing. Um, you need to have that. I don't. I don't. I don't know that that's the case. It could be to protect outfitting jobs, but there's a help A lot of moose outfitters and you can hunt moose it out of guy. Yeah, But isn't there some there's some I've heard some rumors that in Alaska they're looking at that for moose. Oh, there's some big stuff happen there for big implications because as a dude with a with a brother who lives in Alaska, Um, they're The Other thing they're changing up is if I'm hunting with him on for for the things that I need that he needs to be there in order for me to hunt, it counts on my kill, counts on his bag limit. So it used to be we could go sheep, we could go hunt doll sheep together. Now if I kill one, that's his doll sheep, so that goes into effect between now in two thousand eighteen. But if it's but if you so, then if you hire a guide, it doesn't you don't know it's the only one you're doing the first it's only one you're in the family hunt. So is that a is that a protective law as well? Industry protection law? Uh? Danny was pointing out to me that there's a the the the the doll sheep take and you know it's a finite resource and the preponderance of dolls, sheep killing Alaska killed by non residents. So they're they're they're doing some things to um. You know, all states just for for listeners, you know, all states tend to not tend to all states are gonna give priority to wildlife resources to residents its state managed just stands the reason they're gonna give preference to their own residents. Um. You know, sometimes like if you're gonna hunt elk or let's say you're gonna ut white tailed deer in Michigan on a resident tag, you know it's twelve bucks or whatever. You're gonna hunt deer, there's a non resid you're gonna pay two hundred fifty dollars. So you generally, for your people in your state, UM, you give them a readier, less expensive access to renewable resources, and then people from out of state are gonna pay a little more moreting help bankroll the whole thing. It applies the lower place, uh it gets, it starts to seem most severe in destination states, you know, um, Colorado, Montana, well, you know all the western states, Alaska like place where people want to dream of go hunt. Sometimes they're often have sticker shock because they've been buying resident licenses for their whole life. My brother will ask you, you don't pay You don't pay for tags for the most part, A residents don't pay for tax you buy a hunting license. Yeah, they're doubling all nonresident tag fees. I am going to disagree with Dave on this issue just because, honestly think you know, if most people were like your honest we're like you, Stephen, they were coming here to hunt in the wilderness, wouldn't be an issue. No, But most people aren't. I mean, disagree with me on that one. Most guys who come out here for the first time and drive out from Wisconsin to go hunt ILK Like, I'm not sure you want those guys first time, you know, in the wilderness with nothing but a total map. And that's just you know, this is all theory. I feel you can get his dream amount of trouble though. Chunkm yeah, yeah, alright, road, let's move on. Um, you know, before we move on, I want to make a point. Federally designated wilderness is one of those cases where I feel that the FEDS did what was right. I don't know to talk about had your last thought. I agree this is not over Steve. No, well, I would love to hear your take on it. I hate to drop a big bombshell on you like that after you had I'll just say done correctly, you're right, but done correctly, you're right? Okay, Well, yeah, that's what I would say too. Now that's where we might define that differently. But yeah, I think that we're on the same page. Was that your deal? You had a concluding question? So, just to clarify, federally designated wilderness stayed Wyloming. You gotta have a guy to be with a guy from Wyoming, correct, And you guys have some serious bad country wilderness. Yeah, yeah, we do. We've got some of the biggest in the country, at least in the lower forty eight Ron, what's your concluding thought? You have an anti federalist rant. Have you lost a dog to wolf? Do you have any friends? I have? I have had dogs. I had acquaintances, not friends like you and me friends or what beagles and coon dog guys and and bear dog guys. So here's my concluding thought. Cars, I love you. I guarantee they've lost some dogs. Cars, I love you. I hate bears. I love dogs. I'm going on online. I love you, I hate bears. I love dogs, I hate wolves. I love everybody here. And this has just been a silly ass podcast because you're all on the same side. You need to get somebody out here from the other side. So like we should have been asking you more questions because exactly but you're you have the only viewpoint here that I think is illegitimate. I've known you since you're eighteen years old. You and I have never agreed on anything except we're like arguing about stuff forever. That's fair. I'm gonna end the future. I'm gonna vite you back on. I want you to do some preparation. I want you to come in. You convince me. You convince me that we should hate bears. Not bad to say bears. Yeah, wolves. Grizzly bears were the ones I'm scared of. Two black bears up in my porch up at the cabin this month there last month with you, So I don't hate black bears. That scared of them. Yeah, that's sure. You did almost ski yet we left stocked right up on my bottom of my sleeping bag. But no grizzly bears. Wolves. I don't like them. Sorry, I'm a dog guy, small game hunter. You know. Here's my concluding thought. That wasn't it? I'm working into Well, I haven't talked for an hour and a half. I take two beers. I can't smoke now. Finally I get how do you want to cut me off? All right? I find you know, I listened to a lot of podcasts listening your podcasts, been listening to a few years. I got my own podcast, and I feel like they talk about the dividing line between high fence hunters and wild hunter you know, wild game hunters and out east and out west. That to me is the biggest dividing line ever Western hunters versus Eastern hunters. When when I hear the podcast from all I hear about is how big the rack was? What what's your buddy with the podcast? That? In uh J, the two guys J and DR, they literally just talked numbers on antlers, like, yeah, saw three about one? Do you want to heat this thing? Kill somebody with it? I think what happened when everybody moved western of Mississippi. They lost their noodles, okay, and they got way too wrapped up in everything we're back east. We just do the same thing we've been doing since we such bs down such the coq d m. A thing is from the southeast. I don't pay attention to your hunter. I'm a bird hunter. If you think that wanting to shoot something big is a Western invention, dude, they're's bigger here. So you have no idea what you're talking about, of course not, do you know that? Whatever you argue with me, that stuff like the white the white tailed deer world, you know what, and you know I'm not a part of it at all, like zero, So all right, but it's just weird, I hear like so much like it's kind of like the people out west are obsessive about Yeah, Rex, super obsessive. Other than Dave that doesn't have any money. It's closed from Arkansas, family is or something. Anyway, My concluding thought is that thanks for having me here, and let's go hunting tomorrow. No, we're going, Yeah, we're going hunting tomorrow. Um goss. The whole story, I'm gonna save it. My including thought is it's been thank you, NiFi Colon, Dave Wilms, the little bit of time we've spent. Uh, I have an opportunity to talk about the issues we've talked about, and then that we've been able to share email correspondence. It really has. UH, it's really enhanced my understanding of wildlife issues in the US. I I I can't say, like like in a blanket way. I can't say that we might agree on every single detail about stuff, but I really have appreciated watching and just the little bit I've seen in our discussions, watching in a real time way. UH, how decisions about wildlife get made, how social perceptions are formed, and kind of the complexities of being the people and around the people who are who actually have to make the compromises and forge the deals and have it be that you're looking out for wildlife at the same time you're mindful of a constituency who needs to live here, make a living here, raise their children here. It's been interesting to see. UM. I really invite people to to uh delve into some of the complexities because I think that you'll find, uh as you start to look at these issues, that that there's no comfort in how easy the solution is. There's a tendency to want to find ways where you look and you'd be like, oh, it's simple they want to do this or now they're gonna do that, And when you look into what it actually goes on, and and talking about these big emblematic things wolves and grizzly bears and other things that it's um, it's a mine field. And and the fact that you guys have UH in the state. I feel like ben in it in a way and dealing with some things that are impacting the rest of the country and trying to do it in a thoughtful way and from a position that I know personally comes from really admiring wildlife and wanting to be out among wildlood. That you're like wildlife guys who spend your time out of doors appreciating and enjoying wildlood. Um, it's refreshing. Man, It's great to see. And I I trust that you have you know, wisdom and and and good ideas going into the future. So thanks for coming on. Assssssssssssss
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