00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the news show, Ladies and gentlemen. Today we've got news. 00:00:04 Speaker 2: About a gang of rogue turkeys who beat up a nice old lady. Oregon voters will get to consider a bill to ban all hunting, fishing, ranching, and rodeoing, pushed by a dude who looks like Moby on a diet. 00:00:21 Speaker 1: We got an. 00:00:22 Speaker 2: Interview of our archaeological findings around who invented the bow and arrow? And when Spencer Newhart shatters a number of fishing records set this slowly killing himself eating fish full of pea, fast chemicals and Patagonia sues of all things a drag queen. 00:00:42 Speaker 1: But first I'm up. The mouse is gone. 00:00:47 Speaker 3: Hmmm, oh what happened? 00:00:49 Speaker 1: He got away? 00:00:50 Speaker 2: But it's like a complicated story because first the mouse, my boy comes in the room. 00:00:58 Speaker 1: I don't know when that kid goes to bed. 00:01:00 Speaker 2: The high school kid comes to the our room, wakes me and my wife up at two in the morning to say the mouse got away, but I found it, and I said, did you put a lid on it so it doesn't get out again? 00:01:10 Speaker 1: He says yes. 00:01:10 Speaker 2: The next day I wake up and there's no lid on it, and I said, why did you say that you put a lid on it? 00:01:15 Speaker 1: He said, because what I meant was it doesn't need a lid. Oh sure, he said. What he meant was it doesn't need a lid, like you know. 00:01:25 Speaker 2: And I'm like, Katie, do you remember him saying, like in the middle of the night that he put a lid on it? She says, he absolutely said he put a lid on it. He says, it doesn't need a lit is. 00:01:33 Speaker 1: Why he said that. He says, it crawled out on a stick, but he found it. 00:01:40 Speaker 3: Wait, he woke you up in middle of the night to tell you that it got away. 00:01:42 Speaker 1: But that's what I'm so fishy about it. 00:01:45 Speaker 2: But it was true because in the morning goes back like, I don't get why, I don't know why he woke us up and tell us that he woke up and tells a non news item. 00:01:55 Speaker 4: I very but still it made it sway to the news show. 00:01:59 Speaker 1: Very fishy. 00:02:01 Speaker 2: So he says there was a stick in there, someone put a stick in there that so it mimicked its real environ like your real life environs. 00:02:11 Speaker 3: You know. 00:02:13 Speaker 1: And he said, well I took the stick out. 00:02:16 Speaker 2: Then my wife goes and gets a basket full of laundry in the laundry room, screams bloody murder because the mouse has got out and found its way and is living in the laundry basket. We find it again and catch it. This little boy who was his mom a neighbor boy. His mom was with my wife when they found the mouse. He made a hardware cloth box with a lid for the mouse. Nice since there's no aquarium lid. We put it in the hardware cloth like made out of like you know, mettwire mash to store it in there. But my wife at this point is done with this mouse getting away, so she's like, store the mouse out side in the. 00:03:00 Speaker 1: Box with the lid. 00:03:02 Speaker 2: I had originally nixed this box because I said that mouse will fit through the hardware cloth. But I said put it in Eric, it's got a lid and put it outside, and they're like, I thought you said it'd crawl through the hardware cloth. I think it's big enough now where it won't, but it did. But where it gets complicated. My wife was mad that I brought that thing down here because she's like, it's illegal to have wildlife, so you're going to get in trouble for talking about that stupid thing on the podcast, And I said, you're gonna get in trouble because you brought it home. But now it's gone anyway, And now it looks like I let it go to avoid the law because if they raid the house, like I listened to blood Trails, if there's no body, it's very hard to prosecute. Sure, so now there's no mouse anyways, So like when they raid the house, I'm like, dude, there's no mouse here. Look all you want, Well, it's here somewhere. 00:04:05 Speaker 5: You had to have been secretly happy that that thing got. 00:04:08 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're both happy. Goat that way. But I legit didn't let it go. 00:04:12 Speaker 3: So is it in the house somewhere? 00:04:14 Speaker 1: No, it's outside the house. 00:04:15 Speaker 5: I wonder if he'll come back to visit you guys now, And then, like that pigeon did, do. 00:04:18 Speaker 6: You think he's like grown enough or she's grown enough to make it. 00:04:22 Speaker 2: I've told my kids, I think it's fine since it's the right time of year. 00:04:25 Speaker 7: And if it could escape on its own two or three times. 00:04:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's got a bad desire. 00:04:30 Speaker 5: You got any bad neighbors that let their house cats room. 00:04:32 Speaker 1: Around there's one. There's one cat. I think his name's Mitzi or something like that. No bell on that thing. Yeah, seeing Mebel, Mebel's gone. 00:04:48 Speaker 2: So if the cops are coming, don't even waste your time. I can't find the mouse if. 00:04:52 Speaker 1: I wanted corpus. There's nobody listen to blood trails. There's no body. No, you can't do nothing about. 00:05:02 Speaker 2: We got our oh oh yeah, our annual Turkey Hunt giveaway sweep Steaks. We're I like it because when this sweep Steaks goes live every year, it's just about the time of year. 00:05:11 Speaker 1: We just did it. 00:05:13 Speaker 2: Last year's Turkey Hunt sweep Steaks giveaway winners, we just hunted with them. 00:05:18 Speaker 1: Both of them got their birds. They both got their birds on day one. 00:05:22 Speaker 2: Every year, Jannis and I team up with TRCP and we do our turkey Hunt giveaway, all expense paid, three night, two day turkey hunt. The web page says Colorado, but we bounce around. We don't like to lock ourselves in on where we hunt. This last year we hunted in northern Illinois. Phenomenal hunt, So ignore that. 00:05:42 Speaker 5: That'll change. 00:05:43 Speaker 1: They have to put a value on it, and they say it's worth nine thousand bucks. I think it's worth one hundred thousand dollars. 00:05:50 Speaker 2: All your expense paid, We pay your travel, we pay your food. We had my buddy, chef Andy came and cooked this year. He's cooked in the past, so we bring in a chef. We take care of your lodging, your airfare, your turkey tags. You hunt with me and Yanni three nights, two days. All the money we cover personally, we cover all the expenses, so the full raffles sweepstakes money goes straight to TRCP. We don't pull expenses out. That goes to TRCP. Okay, it's live now to go win. We've been doing this for years. We've got a stack of we've got a stack of happy customers. 00:06:31 Speaker 5: Didn't it start out as an elk hunt and change to a turkey It's that's funny. 00:06:35 Speaker 1: Bring that up. 00:06:36 Speaker 2: It started out as an elk hunt that was an auction, so that meant that every year it'd be. 00:06:42 Speaker 1: Like an orthodonist or some such. 00:06:46 Speaker 2: Then we're like, let's switch it so that any kind of guy can win, just so he'll billies and rednecks can come. So that's what we did, and it raised more money. We like tripled the amount the money we raised by going raffle ye. So'll if you're sitting there and you're thinking, man, I'm too much, but he'll abilly to ever win something like that, think again. 00:07:11 Speaker 7: And if you got a babydo in the spring and you consider the like, well, maybe the timing doesn't work. You can still do it anyway, and Steve will have to make good for you. 00:07:20 Speaker 2: Spencer, speaking from experience, we last year's winner didn't hunt, last year's Winter wins and then gets his wife pregnant. 00:07:29 Speaker 1: Like three months later. 00:07:30 Speaker 4: Tale as old as time yep. 00:07:32 Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, his wife's due date is like Turkey season. So he sends his brother in law's who tag out. Then I felt bad for him, so then I had him and his dad come for dinner, and Spencer came over to help entertain, so. 00:07:50 Speaker 1: We flew them into town. This is we're not gonna make a habit out of that. 00:07:54 Speaker 8: If you. 00:07:58 Speaker 2: Get a box of rophile active family plan Accordingly, if you can get a family, if you win, get a family planning plan together. I don't care how you do it. Yeah, that's for another show. That's for calling him mommy. 00:08:17 Speaker 5: So how did Spencer entertain them like. 00:08:22 Speaker 1: Great entertaining. 00:08:23 Speaker 2: Imagine, Spencer's my kind of Spencer's my kind of guy for stuff like that. 00:08:28 Speaker 1: Because what Spencer does do you want to know what? 00:08:31 Speaker 3: You know? 00:08:31 Speaker 1: What Spencer does? 00:08:31 Speaker 4: Ask a lot of questions, Yeah. 00:08:33 Speaker 1: Very thoughtful questions. He's not there to talk about himself. 00:08:37 Speaker 2: Very he did asked a question about on the fly, like if you thought for a week about what you might ask. 00:08:42 Speaker 7: Well, I thought for a week about what I did you notice how I noticed that about you? Yeah? 00:08:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, he asked great questions. 00:08:49 Speaker 4: He's in natural host. 00:08:50 Speaker 7: Thank you. 00:08:51 Speaker 2: It just me Yeah, I can just like I could sit there and when he has a question, I'm like, that's such a good question. 00:08:54 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to the answer. 00:08:55 Speaker 4: And if you only listen to the podcast, you might think that he just asks trivia questions, but in fact he's very personable. 00:09:02 Speaker 1: Yeah, ask people about themselves. It's a great characteristic. 00:09:05 Speaker 2: TRCP dot org Summer metiat or summer sweep steaks again all expense, three night, two day hunt with me and Yannie. We have made some exceptions when we've had a hunt or not get his bird. 00:09:18 Speaker 1: We've done. I don't want to make a habit of that. We already gotten next year's spot lined up. It's the same spot from this year, and the place is sweet. It's a good turkey hunt. 00:09:31 Speaker 5: That's where they strut on the railroad tracks. 00:09:34 Speaker 4: If you need some extra entertainers, he can ask some questions. 00:09:38 Speaker 1: So it goes like. 00:09:39 Speaker 2: You get like ten entries for twenty five dollars whatever, Just do it. Yeah, get in there, win this son of a bitch. We'll show you turkey hunt and some good food. 00:09:53 Speaker 1: Close we got is that it? 00:09:55 Speaker 3: Oh? 00:09:55 Speaker 1: You got t shirt? 00:09:57 Speaker 2: Oh we got to you know, all this all this hoopla America's two hundred and fiftieth anniversary, I get it. I'm more of a one hundred, two hundred, three hundred guy. Yeah here here, Like I was around, I was three two something like that two at the bi centennial. But the problem with only doing centennial celebrations is you're gonna have people just flat out miss out. 00:10:21 Speaker 5: Yeah, including our current president. 00:10:24 Speaker 2: Yeah well no, like he hit the by centennial I know. 00:10:28 Speaker 5: But he's like the two fifty is closely linked to him. 00:10:32 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:10:33 Speaker 1: I don't want a dog on it. 00:10:34 Speaker 2: I get it, But I just like I would never if I was left to myself, I would never think if I saw that the three hundred was coming up, I would plan huge stuff. Yeah, I would never have thought to myself, too fifty. 00:10:53 Speaker 1: Is you know. 00:10:54 Speaker 2: But the nice thing about splitting the fifties is most people that live a normal life expectancy will hit a celebration. You could, like, I hit one at two, I won't hit the next one. M No, I mean we we right, so. 00:11:13 Speaker 1: Maybe like you might not ever hit one. 00:11:17 Speaker 4: No, probably not if they didn't do the fifty right right. I was born in eighty six, so like. 00:11:24 Speaker 1: You could live a fairly okay life. 00:11:27 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, like not gonna be great. 00:11:28 Speaker 2: Yeah'd be a little bit disappointing, you're yeah, Sydney would get remarried. 00:11:34 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I was looking. 00:11:36 Speaker 2: Forward to that day. She'd get a second chance. Now, could you could feasibly without it being a tragedy? 00:11:43 Speaker 4: Sure? Never get Yeah, a celebration perfectly. How everybody say he lived till eighty nine, Oh that would be well ninety. I could live till eighty nine and miss it, right, Okay. 00:11:57 Speaker 2: So you're not gonna see one. No, that's why you gotta do the fifties. I mean, I'm because a randall. 00:12:04 Speaker 5: They don't have like the cool centennial name, though. 00:12:07 Speaker 1: They do it. 00:12:09 Speaker 4: I was gonna say, everybody knows that one hundred and fifty is a sesqui centennial. 00:12:13 Speaker 1: Well that's what that means. 00:12:14 Speaker 4: Yeah, the term for a two hundred and fiftieth anniversary is a semi quinn centennial. 00:12:21 Speaker 3: Nice that sucks, which sounds like a y. 00:12:25 Speaker 1: That's why I believe that's why they're going with two fifty. 00:12:29 Speaker 5: Yeah, we're gonna that should have gone on a. 00:12:31 Speaker 4: T shirt, man, semi Quinn centennial. Yeah, why is That's a great shirt. That's a great trivia. 00:12:37 Speaker 2: Anyways, we launched a shirt and randalls on her because this is his best chance to see a centennial, the only chance to have a good celebration. 00:12:44 Speaker 1: It says America. 00:12:45 Speaker 2: It's got a buffalo on It says Land of the Free seventeen seventy six. 00:12:51 Speaker 1: Get your own. 00:12:53 Speaker 3: About free jerk either Yeah, I think you might give free jerky with the T shirt or if you spend over a certain amount or something. 00:13:00 Speaker 5: Erica some two hundred and fifty year old jerky. 00:13:04 Speaker 1: I don't see nothing about jerky. The top left. 00:13:07 Speaker 3: This is just a screenshot from the website. 00:13:09 Speaker 2: Oh huh, there could be something to do with free jerky. 00:13:13 Speaker 4: I don't want to that's enticing. 00:13:15 Speaker 3: Don't say anything. 00:13:16 Speaker 1: Official guy has the etdequate question. 00:13:20 Speaker 7: Hold on, hold on, Oh sorry, punt gunplain. 00:13:30 Speaker 1: Exit. 00:13:31 Speaker 7: Steve scolded me for not speaking up last week to talk about the punt gun, and then he blew past the punt gun exit again on this episode. We bought a punk gun in twenty twenty two. We've been messing around it for a while. We shot it earlier this year. Now there's some important news to share around that. In late June here we're gonna have the video that comes out on our YouTube channel of me and Steve shooting the punk gun. And then in early or mid July, the Meat Eater auction House of Oddities is going to go live and we are going to be selling some hats that were shot by the punt gun at the auction house. And then in late on. 00:14:06 Speaker 1: Those hats say this hat was shot by a punt. 00:14:08 Speaker 7: Gun and it was actually shot by a punt gun. 00:14:11 Speaker 2: And there's gonna be three categories. There's barely shot, pretty shot, and really shot. 00:14:19 Speaker 1: Yes, so a barely shot higher the more holes. This is the weird part. 00:14:25 Speaker 2: You pay more for the more holes. Sure, but it all goes to it all goes to conservations. 00:14:30 Speaker 3: Like genes these days. 00:14:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, exact where you go? 00:14:32 Speaker 5: What'd you guys do with the shell casings? 00:14:35 Speaker 7: We have some, They may go in the auction house we sent one of them to. I'll explain this now. In late August, we are selling the punt gun again. It will be August twenty one, twenty two, or twenty three. We don't know the exact day yet. This will be done through Rock Island Auction at their summer premiere auction. Rock Island Auction, they're like the world's leading auction house for antique colle historic firearms. That's where we bought the punt gun and. 00:15:04 Speaker 2: The men we had Will Primo Son about selling that that collection series of shotguns he has that was rock. 00:15:10 Speaker 7: If a really valuable gun comes up for sale, say it's like worth north of you know, twenty thousand dollars, there's a good chance it's going through Rock Island. That's where our punt gun came from. That's who it's now going to be sold through. We paid twenty thousand dollars for it. The folks at the auction house, Hope that it goes for more than that this time around. Their estimate is twenty to thirty thousand. Punt guns don't come up for sale real often. We bought ours in twenty twenty two that same auction. There was one other punt gun prior to that. They had sold one in twenty twenty one and then twenty sixteen, so less than one a year for punt guns coming up for sale. 00:15:46 Speaker 2: Ours is a Holland and Holland punt gun manufactured in London. 00:15:50 Speaker 7: And it's from the late eighteen hundreds. It's four years older than the very state we're sitting in right now. That's how old that damn punk gun is. 00:15:57 Speaker 1: And a nice thing about this. 00:15:58 Speaker 2: When we got it, if someone said does it work, we would have had to say, I don't know. 00:16:03 Speaker 7: In fact, we asked that question and they said we don't know. 00:16:05 Speaker 2: Now, when you buy it and someone says does it work, you'd be like, does it work? 00:16:10 Speaker 3: Check out this hat? 00:16:11 Speaker 5: It worked six times. 00:16:13 Speaker 7: So we're gonna sell that through Rock Island Auction August twenty one to twenty three. Every dollar that that punt gun sells for is going into the Meat Eater Land Access Initiative, so it's going to a good cause, and Rock Island they're doing us a huge favor. They're waiving all fees that are normally associated with selling a gun through them, So we appreciate Rock Island for their help and making this happen. We'll announce these dates when they get closer, but late June video, mid July, auction house, late August punk gun will be sold. 00:16:44 Speaker 2: So those of you out there are the big pile of scratch orthodontis yep, get that punt gun and if you do buy it, you want the wall mount brackets. Spencer was too lazy to take them off the wall. Let me know, I'll send them over. 00:17:00 Speaker 1: Martin Fabrication made them. 00:17:02 Speaker 7: Rock Island Auction dot Com. 00:17:04 Speaker 5: Uh. 00:17:04 Speaker 2: A guy had a chettikut question. But you gotta rescend the question because the way you have it, you're gonna hurt people's feelings. Yes, like he way over described, way over described, You don't have to find this is the. 00:17:19 Speaker 1: Guy talking about the skull guy and the skull lady. 00:17:23 Speaker 2: Resend. They're gonna know exactly who you're talking about. And then you're gonna have no skull people, Leland, no skull people. We got a thing that's gonna we're gonna have Yannia dress where a guy's talking about basically he's saying, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. On drones, drone recovery, drone recovery. He's got a spirited argument about why drone recovery is great and you shouldn't make it so you can't use drones to find wounded animals just because people are gonna then also use. 00:17:57 Speaker 7: It to poach. 00:17:59 Speaker 1: But we'll let you talk about that. 00:18:02 Speaker 2: A guy wrote in to say, we were we were talking about data center on the north Slope. We're talking about the oil fields around prude Obay. How they don't they don't pipe out natural liquified natural gas off a natural gas being a byproduct of oil extraction. He says they truck it down daily down to Fairbanks and trucks. So there is there is a commercial liquified natural gas output coming off there. 00:18:26 Speaker 1: That correction stands now. 00:18:30 Speaker 2: An interview with our favorite archaeologists, Mett and Aaron. So Mett's been on the show before. If you remember when we did our thing, when when we did a research we participated in a research project where we butchered a bison using stone tools. Met has been on the show talking about a live is archaeological work. When someone sends me or anyone I know a photo of a rock they found and they're wondering if it was if it's a tool, a human made tool, we always send the picture to Meton. Meton always says, it's not. 00:19:08 Speaker 3: Yeah, I do this all the time. Is yep. 00:19:10 Speaker 2: He's like a professional ball buster, like professional good times ruiner. Sorry, I'll be like, look at this crazy axe I found. 00:19:23 Speaker 1: He's like, that looks like a rock, not all it's. 00:19:26 Speaker 4: The burden expertise. 00:19:28 Speaker 3: Ye. Yeah. 00:19:29 Speaker 2: Sometimes he will point out that he's this is what makes him a great Sometimes you'll point out he can't tell from that picture. And sometimes you'll point out that that does look like worked stone. So it's not that he just says no just to just to be mean, but he puts people in their place. And I always say when I get a picture of something someone found, I always say, hang on a minute. So if I ever say that to you and you're one of my friends, what I'm doing is I'm sending the picture to Meton for him to vet okay, uh, Meton, please tell us about the paper it is published. 00:20:03 Speaker 9: Yeah, so myself and some of my closest colleagues, a guy named Briggs Buchanan at University of Tulsa, and Rob Walker at Missouri and Marcus Hamilton down in Texas, we wanted to know when the bow and arrow was adopted in prehistoric North America. And this is the question that a lot of archaeologists have struggled with for a pretty long time. And it's a tricky question because usually, like the components of a bow and arrow don't preserve right because it's wood and sinew and stuff. So for a really long time, archaeologists have been using stone points to try to figure out the weapon that that stone point went on to. 00:20:47 Speaker 10: But that's really problematic because you can have little. 00:20:51 Speaker 9: Tiny points on arrows at laddle darts, you can even have tiny points on spears like thrusting spears, and you can have large points on all of those different weapons systems. So you can't use the stone point to figure out the rest of the weapon. And so Dave Meltzer, who's been on the podcast several times, he said to me a couple of years ago, He's like, why don't you figure this out? 00:21:18 Speaker 10: So I start to think about it. 00:21:20 Speaker 9: And there's a statistical technique called optimal linear estimation, and we don't need to get into the details of that. 00:21:29 Speaker 10: Technique because it's pretty boring. 00:21:31 Speaker 9: But you know, if you like hit a baseball, and if you only have like thirty percent of that baseball's trajectory and you know the velocity of the baseball, you can make a pretty good prediction of where that baseball. 00:21:46 Speaker 7: Is going to land. 00:21:47 Speaker 10: That's kind of. 00:21:48 Speaker 9: What optimal linear estimation does, except we can do it with data. 00:21:52 Speaker 10: And radiocarbon dates. 00:21:54 Speaker 9: And so what my colleagues and I did was we actually went through the literature and we actually have something like fifty preserved components of bows and arrows from really dry caves and bows and arrows that like melt out of the ice and stuff like that. And we have eighty six preserved components from the at laddle or spear thrower in dark also from dry caves and just random occurrences where these things preserve. And because we can date those wooden components, we have radiocarbon dates on all one hundred and thirty six of those rare archaeological specimens. And so what we did was we applied this technique, and we went backwards in time with the bow and arrow, and we went forwards in time with the at laddle and dart, and we found that they crossed over exactly at fourteen hundred years ago. So that's when the bow and arrow transition from the atladdle and dart occurred in western North America. 00:23:00 Speaker 2: I've often said this. I should have checked with a guy like you before I said it. I've often told people, and I don't even know where I read this, that that the bow and arrow was perhaps invented. I don't know where I got this number seven times when I say that, what am I saying? 00:23:21 Speaker 9: So, what you're talking about is the principle of convergent evolution, and we see that all the time in the biological world. Right, insects, birds and bats all can fly, but they're not related to each other. They independently evolved the ability to fly. And so we see that with the bow and arrow. Right, the bow and arrow was invented, we think, in South Africa about seventy four thousand years ago. Who was invented again in Central Europe about fifty four thousand years ago. Sri Lanka forty eight thousand years ago, again in Europe eleven thousand years years ago. And what we've shown in this latest paper, who was reinvented once again in North America at just fourteen hundred years ago. 00:24:07 Speaker 7: Huh Yeah, so, like I mean, this is. 00:24:10 Speaker 9: Because humans are smart and they have similar issues that they need to solve, problems they need to solve, and so they'll come up with similar solutions. And so at various points in time, people invented the bow and arrow to tackle whatever problem they were facing. 00:24:27 Speaker 1: Now that you have that date. 00:24:31 Speaker 2: And you look at the types of stone points that you see from different dated sites, does it illuminate anything that you didn't notice before? Meaning did you sort of rediscover a correlation between an arrow like in what is commonly called like an Indian arrowhead, between an arrowhead size and what it might have been used for, Like, did you see a shrinking of arrowhead size around four teen hundred years ago? Now that you that you have an identified point to look. 00:25:03 Speaker 9: At, Yeah, there's general trends where points will get smaller after that point, and then like you know, five or six hundred years after that fourteen hundred year old marker, like the points get real small so you can be confident if you find like a really tiny point, you're probably dealing with the bow and arrow. 00:25:24 Speaker 10: But again probably right. I mean, the past. 00:25:28 Speaker 9: Doesn't really preserve that well, and so archaeologist should always kind of buffer what they say with you know, qualifiers. 00:25:36 Speaker 2: Do you think there's any chance in identifying what part of like where this thing sprung up geograph more specifically? 00:25:47 Speaker 9: Oh, now, that's a really good question, right, because we focus our analysis on this at laddle the boat transition in western. 00:25:57 Speaker 10: North America, and that's where stuff preserves. 00:26:00 Speaker 9: They're in super dry caves like in the southwest, or if it's melting out of like ice. 00:26:06 Speaker 3: Right, yep. 00:26:07 Speaker 9: Well, what our research doesn't speak to is was the boat invented in western North America or was it invented somewhere else, maybe somewhere in the east, and then it into Western North America fourteen hundred years ago. 00:26:22 Speaker 10: We have no idea. And that's a tough question because just stuff does not preserve in the eastern woodlands that well, it's too much seasonality, too much moisture, and just organic materials just get estimated. 00:26:36 Speaker 2: So you wouldn't be shocked if you if you heard and I appreciate what you're saying, like, we don't know, but you wouldn't be shocked if it would be that that maybe a thousand years earlier it was being used. 00:26:51 Speaker 1: On the Atlantic coast. Say that it might have like. 00:26:55 Speaker 2: Who knows, it might have taken that long to get to the western US the boat. 00:27:00 Speaker 9: That is certainly a possibility. I think the other thing to keep in mind, too, is it's also possible that the bowl and arrow was used a lot earlier, say by pale Indians, and then for some reason it was lost but extinct, and then nine ten thousand years later was reinvented fourteen hundred years ago. I think what this research really speaks to is the fact that, like you know, we often think that we're getting better and better and better with our technology, and we often have this view of whether it's biological or cultural or technological evolution, that things are getting better and better and better. But species and technologies come and go, they go extinct all the time, and they get reinvented. There is no progression to evolution, and so people will come up with the best solution given the context that they're in. 00:27:56 Speaker 1: God, what else you're working on? 00:27:58 Speaker 2: What can we expect from your off us to your lab next Yeah. 00:28:02 Speaker 9: Well, we got some pretty big projects that should be coming out next month. I think I can't talk about those right now just because. 00:28:10 Speaker 10: They're under embargo. But you guys will be the first ones to know when I when they come out. 00:28:16 Speaker 2: Give me a little teaser, like, tell me that, tell me how many years ago we're talking about. 00:28:23 Speaker 10: We have two big. 00:28:26 Speaker 9: We got We got two big papers on Clovis hunting and different aspects of Clovis hunting. 00:28:33 Speaker 2: You better not be trying to come and give us more of that hogwash about how they weren't killing mams left and right. No, no, no, they didn't wake up every day and killing mammoth. 00:28:45 Speaker 1: I don't want to hear about it. 00:28:48 Speaker 9: All right, we'll have a chat about that. Yeah, So we got some clothes stuff coming out. We we were in Oman in November. Oh really, Yeah, yeah, because we've been working there for the last few years. We have a hypothesis that we published. It was last year and that got quite a bit of news on a new hypothesis for the origin of well all technology and so and that has to do with basically people using naturally sharp rocks to process game and carcasses and so really you can tie the origin of technology and the fact that we're looking on iPhones in this screen right now to the fact that people needed to cut meat got them that started everything. 00:29:34 Speaker 10: And so we were there in November. That was I love going to Oman. It's an awesome place. 00:29:40 Speaker 9: Yeah, we got projects in Kenya that will probably got us go to next year and just lots of experiments and shooting stuff. 00:29:47 Speaker 2: And again, keep us posted on the new Clovis work again. Matt and Aaron is a professor at Kent State University, where he directs the Experimental Archaeology Department. He and his colleagues, including our friend and former podcast guest David Meltzer, have both uh what trying to. 00:30:08 Speaker 1: Say, both been on. Yeah, whatever, you get the point. 00:30:13 Speaker 2: Kent State University, Experimental Archaeology Department, thank you very much for joining and we always look forward to anything you can come and tell us about ancient hunters. 00:30:22 Speaker 1: So appreciate you joining. 00:30:23 Speaker 2: Hey, thanks, Okay, wild Turkey's ambush California Senior Citizen. But they don't ambush. This story was sent to us. Brodie, can you can you give the basic gist here or are you that familiar. 00:30:39 Speaker 5: Well, I mean I can give the basic gist. In California, like recently, an elderly woman in the San Francisco area was out walking and got attacked by a couple of turkeys town turkeys, yeah, urban turk And that's like like that segment of the wild turkey population has grown pretty fast, Like they're they're pretty common in suburbia and and even like urban areas. But she is bruised, and you got those pictures of her, phil. 00:31:09 Speaker 3: Oh, I'll pull them up here, Brode, I thought you were talking about the other turkey graphic you sent me. 00:31:13 Speaker 2: I'll pull you pull that up in a minute of turkey graph. 00:31:20 Speaker 5: Yeah, she she had some injuries to her face and fell and and I did a little research while we were getting this whole thing together this morning, and that's actually one of the most common injuries when wild turkey's ambush people. 00:31:36 Speaker 2: Well, that's why I wanted to cover the story. But then Brody did additional research. Can I cover my bit first? 00:31:43 Speaker 5: Yeah? 00:31:43 Speaker 4: Yeah? 00:31:45 Speaker 2: If okay, there's two main Yeah, I was gonna complain about another thing. God's gonna say two main complaints I have in life. But I'm gonna skip the other one, yourejournalists need to better understand what an ambush is. They I was gonna find a hundred examples of journalists not understanding an ambush. 00:32:12 Speaker 1: They're like these turkey they use the word. 00:32:15 Speaker 2: Here's the poor woman was beat up by the turkeys. These turkeys came up behind her and attacked her, and the journalist says, the ambush her. It's not an ambush. Journalists never know what an ambush is. For the turkeys to have ambushed her, they would have needed to gone out ahead of her, laid in wait, or waiting outside her door, concealed laying in wait. Like, my message to America's journalists is, please try to understand what an ambush. 00:32:49 Speaker 4: There has to be some element of concealment. 00:32:51 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was reading, Sorry they ambushed. 00:32:54 Speaker 2: So there's like some police parked in a car and they're attacked by a person and they said he ambushed them. It's like, did he walked up on him? She was not ambushed, No, she was attacked. There's ambushing Bushwacken Brody was pointing out a guy using the term shanghaiing. 00:33:14 Speaker 1: I don't know what that means, but like. 00:33:15 Speaker 2: You could shanghai a turkey, but like she's not she was attacked. 00:33:20 Speaker 1: She wasn't ambushed. You could ambush and then attack. 00:33:25 Speaker 5: An attack is like there's levels of attack, right, there's like grizzly bear attacks and there's turkey attacks. 00:33:32 Speaker 2: If I like, I would be more comfortable saying that these turkey's bushwhack, right, because to bushwack a turkey's to kill it. 00:33:40 Speaker 1: Without calling it in to ditch crawl. 00:33:43 Speaker 2: On it, yeah, or he'll crawl whatever, to like put the creep on a turkey is bushwhacken it. 00:33:50 Speaker 1: So it'd be more like they came in blind on her and bushwhack. They did an ambush her. 00:33:57 Speaker 5: But her injuries were from falling, and that's typical of wild turkey attacks where an elderly person ends up falling while they're being attacked. 00:34:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a turkey that kept attacking the elderly in a in a wildlife officer wanted to catch it. 00:34:15 Speaker 1: They had to dress. 00:34:17 Speaker 2: Up like an old lady and act like an old lady to lure the attack that's ambushing the turkey. 00:34:23 Speaker 5: Like they were profiling their victim. 00:34:24 Speaker 1: No, that's trojan horse in it. 00:34:28 Speaker 2: Then they stranglehold the wildlife official dressed up like an old lady, pretended to be an old lady to lure the attack, and then they threw it into a stranglehold. 00:34:40 Speaker 5: It's not like holding on to a live wild turkey. It's hard enough when they're wounded a bit after you shoot them. 00:34:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta hold on their road, sure man. 00:34:49 Speaker 5: Yeah, Phil, you got the how to survive a wild turkey attack? 00:34:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, Brody found this. 00:34:56 Speaker 5: This is this is I got it. There's a quote here about. 00:35:00 Speaker 1: Someone actually made that this is better than Spencer's garden is umbrellas. 00:35:05 Speaker 5: There's a blinking animation we saw tips like umbrellas carrying a garbage bag around and unfolding that garbage bag and like waving it at the turkeys. Huh So, don't back. 00:35:16 Speaker 1: Down carrying a big garden holes with you can help yep, if it's hooked up. 00:35:21 Speaker 5: How to feed a bully turkey, don't back down? 00:35:24 Speaker 1: Who put this? How to defeat a bully? 00:35:26 Speaker 5: That's the funny thing. There are two different articles in the Audubon Society. 00:35:29 Speaker 1: Phil, What is it? What does it say? 00:35:32 Speaker 4: There's umbrella question mark and there's two words above that like. 00:35:37 Speaker 3: It's like like this umbrella. 00:35:39 Speaker 1: Oh charge it's telling you not to wave your hands. 00:35:43 Speaker 3: But it also looks mostly empty. But this is this is what it looked like on the website, though, create stuff. 00:35:48 Speaker 5: I think some stuff missing. 00:35:50 Speaker 1: Did you get the Why is the turkey on the bottom talking? I see that. 00:35:57 Speaker 4: I feel like that box. I feel like that box on the left side in the middle should say do you have anything with you? 00:36:03 Speaker 1: Right? 00:36:04 Speaker 5: But it's some of our are it didn't. 00:36:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a bad job. But yeah, it's saying like if you don't have a shotgun, it's saying, spray it with water, hose it down, shake. 00:36:19 Speaker 1: A bag at it. 00:36:20 Speaker 5: But that's the thing. 00:36:21 Speaker 1: Wave an umbrella at it. 00:36:22 Speaker 5: You can only do so much of these things, right because they're they're wild animals, so you can't. Your hands are kind of tied as far as like what you can do to fight them off. 00:36:32 Speaker 1: Don't gobble at it. 00:36:33 Speaker 6: Here's a question. What if you just like you're like boo and you run at it. 00:36:37 Speaker 1: I think that'd work. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't gobble at it, wouldn't hand call at it. 00:36:42 Speaker 3: If you go boo, it'll probably gobble at you. 00:36:44 Speaker 2: Don't run up to it's a real problem is town turkeys. 00:36:51 Speaker 5: Okay, we're going to Oregon. 00:36:52 Speaker 1: Now. 00:36:54 Speaker 5: In the news a lot lately has been this UH Oregon Hunting Band petition. A lot of the UH headlines that I feel like have been kind of misleading because it's like saying they have they have enough signatures to ban hunting and organ which is not that not the case. So we're going to go through the whole thing. The Organ Peace Act, which is People for the Elimination of Animal Cruelty Exemptions UH. 00:37:22 Speaker 2: I think they started with knowing what they wanted the acronym to. 00:37:26 Speaker 1: Be, yeah, and then. 00:37:30 Speaker 2: Because you want to, you know, always tell when someone does X, they wind up with something real clunky, People for the Elimination of Animal Cruelty Exemptions, because they wanted to be able to call it peace. 00:37:40 Speaker 4: I feel like if you're in the acronym business, that's that's not a bad stress. 00:37:44 Speaker 5: It's like when Congress came up with a genius Act, which which is they. 00:37:49 Speaker 2: Knew what they wanted to call it first, and then they had to think of a bunch of words that. 00:37:52 Speaker 1: Would make that. 00:37:54 Speaker 5: Okay. So the Peace Act would remove many exemptions and Organ's animal care laws currently allow hunting, fishing, trapping, livestock production, and slaughter and other animal use practices. 00:38:08 Speaker 3: So basically it. 00:38:09 Speaker 5: Would it would outlaw all of that stuff, and supporters, uh say, the proposal would extend the same legal protections currently given to pets. You know, you can see where this is going. It's it's it's very a very extreme thing, and it was kind of engineered by this guy, David Michelson. We got our photo of David. 00:38:36 Speaker 2: Dude, would you like to that's an ad for vegan diet right there. 00:38:39 Speaker 1: Man. 00:38:39 Speaker 5: Yeah, So David kind of kind of is that this is spearheading this thing. 00:38:48 Speaker 1: That's a that is a rugged lifestyle. 00:38:52 Speaker 5: Yeah, it doesn't look like he's got a lot of energy to run this thing. But but anyway, they got the signatures. I think it was one twenty thousand signatures. They needed one hundred and seventeen thousand to get this thing on the ballot. Little background on Mickelson his background in psychology public health. He said activism was in his Actism was influenced by witnesses witnessing pigs being killed in slaughterhouses, and he has tried earlier versions of this same thing in Oregon. He acknowledges the initiative is unlikely to pass, and has described it as part of a longer term effort to change public attitudes around human use of animals. They want to change the system. Killing animals is a choice, he says. We can make one hundred percent of that food from crops if we chose to do so. So, Obviously, this is like very broad in scope. It's not just a hunting issue. 00:39:56 Speaker 1: It'll never pass. 00:39:57 Speaker 5: No, we'll get to that. We'll see what the odds are. Obviously, hunters like groups like the Hunt Organs, Hunters Association, Ducks Unlimited, National Wild Turkey Foundation, on and on and on with these hunting groups are opposed to this, but it's a lot bigger than hunters. The Oregon Farm Bureau, ranching groups, et cetera argue that you know, it would just completely change fundamentally change their way of life for the worse. Senator Christine Drizanne, Organ Republican gubernatorial candidate, says it's an all out assault on Oregonian's way of life that would expose farmers, ranchers, veterinarians, breeders, and animal owners to criminal liability. So if the measure reaches the voters, which is likely to happen. It's likely to get on the ballot, it's unlikely to be voted into law. Oregon has more than three hundred thirty thousand license hunters, five hundred thousand licensed anglers, seventy thousand farms and ranches involved in livestock production cattle, sheep, dairy goats, poultry, hogs, roughly one point two five million cattle and calves uh and five hundred and twenty five thousand beef cows. This is where it gets good. Three point four million registered voters in Oregon. One hundred and seventy thousand to maybe two hundred and seventy thousand of those voters identify as either vegetarian or vegan five to eight percent of the state's voting age population. So not looking good for it to pass. I asked AI what the odds are of making the ballot eighty five to ninety five percent at the ballot eighty percent chance that fails, twenty percent it passes. Now that's AI. 00:41:58 Speaker 1: So, but that's like pulling from like polymarket data. 00:42:01 Speaker 5: Yeah, political betting market, and twenty is you know, it's not nothing. 00:42:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, this brings up a question I've always pondered, is I'm a law and order guy, right, I'm not. I'm not like a lawbreaker and I was raised up lawbreaking but gave up on it. If this happened in my state, I feel like I would become a vigilane hunter. 00:42:27 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, for sure. 00:42:28 Speaker 1: Like I wouldn't flat out right, I wouldn't flat out quit. I would become a vigilante angler. 00:42:34 Speaker 3: Yep. 00:42:36 Speaker 2: J I mean I wouldn't like, I'm not gonna quit. Yeah, do you know what I'm saying. I'd just be like, well, I guess I'm a poacher now. 00:42:42 Speaker 5: Yep, exactly. 00:42:43 Speaker 3: It would be like if you were if you were a hunter, instead of like getting all your stuff in during the season, you'd be like, I'm getting low. It's time to go get a don. 00:42:51 Speaker 1: Just because I'm just like I'm not going to abide. I'm like, it's gone too far. 00:42:55 Speaker 2: I don't trust this system anymore, and now I'm just going on my own. 00:43:00 Speaker 6: Where would you leave the state? 00:43:02 Speaker 1: No, because I'm I'm not gonna say it. 00:43:04 Speaker 2: Because these these people from this neck of the woods, they're always hunting. 00:43:09 Speaker 1: They don't stick close to home. 00:43:11 Speaker 2: Like Washington Minnesota dudes. One goes one direction, one goes the other direction. 00:43:19 Speaker 5: Leaving the state is like when someone from Hollywood is like, I'm moving to France. You know you're giving up. The weird thing about this, though, is how broad it is compared to a lot of these ballot measures that pop up, like the cat hunting thing in Colorado, which is like they usually like it's really specific, which I think gives these things a better chance of passing. 00:43:43 Speaker 1: But yes, this is like. 00:43:46 Speaker 5: Being done for an Yeah. 00:43:48 Speaker 1: He's doing the PEDA thing, Peter. 00:43:53 Speaker 2: The point for PETA is not to have, not to make progress. The point for PETA is to perpetuate petat making the news. Yeah, so they propose things they know we're a dead end because then the press like, how we're doing right now, we'll talk about it, and then they'll be like the news story, like anytype Peter makes the news. 00:44:13 Speaker 1: It's the news. 00:44:13 Speaker 2: Saying what will they think of next? Yeah, this is ridiculous, and they're like, hah, sweet, we did it. 00:44:19 Speaker 1: We're in the news. So we're falling for that little moby looking dude. 00:44:23 Speaker 2: We're falling for his We're playing right. 00:44:26 Speaker 4: Into his hands. And the other thing too, about these these stunts. Is like they're gathering signatures so they could go to a farmer's market and just tell people, would you like to sign this to put the ballot measure and play there. 00:44:41 Speaker 5: They're gonna be very vague about what. 00:44:42 Speaker 4: Yeah, Like you can say, you can say it's the end like lab testing on animals, or you could say it's this or that, you know, but. 00:44:49 Speaker 2: If they're at the farmers market, the farmers are gonna kick their ass. 00:44:53 Speaker 4: Well I'm just thinking of. 00:44:54 Speaker 1: Like where do you go when there's probably. 00:44:57 Speaker 4: For a baseball game. But I don't think they've had much luck outside. 00:45:00 Speaker 5: Of But did what Randall's saying did get me thinking, like we should do some like man on the street reporting at Whole Foods or wherever when we find out one of these things is going on, like sending someone you know, like ask some people some questions. 00:45:19 Speaker 3: Anyway, Spencer asked good questions. 00:45:21 Speaker 5: That's what's going on. 00:45:24 Speaker 1: It'll be real thoughtful. 00:45:25 Speaker 3: I I I unanimated that flow chart so it filled standard flow. 00:45:31 Speaker 5: Guys, I'm over it. Tag it. 00:45:40 Speaker 2: But the point one thing I was bringing up is you better make sure it's attacking you, because it's not. 00:45:43 Speaker 1: You'd be harassing. Well, that's what I'm saying wildlife when I. 00:45:47 Speaker 5: Said, there's only so much you can do, Like, you can't kill him, right unless like. 00:45:51 Speaker 2: If it's risk like I get if that poor old lady had killed that turkey, no one's going to prosecute. 00:45:57 Speaker 1: Sure, it's not like she like stole them out from the wild. 00:46:06 Speaker 6: Okay, speaking of bands, here's some news from my home state of New York. Senate Bill S ninety four seventy three was recently proposed. So we're not sure if it's going to go through or not, but it's called the Lead Free Game Donation Act, and if it gets if it goes through, then it would be a prohibition on donating lead shot while gave meat to food pantries. So actually this surprised me New York if this, if this were to go through, New York would be the second state after only Minnesota, to ensure that lead potentially contaminated meat wouldn't be donated to food banks and pantries. So that's my little game. How much while game do you think is donated per year to food banks across the country. 00:47:02 Speaker 1: Across the country? Oh no, idea pounds? No, No, a million, million, yeah. 00:47:09 Speaker 7: What is it? 00:47:10 Speaker 6: So apparently recently last year it was one thousand, one hundred tons of wild harvested gay meat. 00:47:19 Speaker 5: So there's the zeros on that. 00:47:21 Speaker 6: Yeah, one thousand one one. 00:47:23 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:47:25 Speaker 2: What what they're missing here is no one's been able to demonstrate no one's been able to demonstrate a correlation between lead poisoning and consumption of wild game. 00:47:34 Speaker 1: It's a completely open question. 00:47:35 Speaker 6: I thought they have. There was there was one. There was one study that I saw. It was like some individuals were consuming lead shot while game meat and their lead the blood the lead levels and their blood were X. And then they transitioned to to consuming non lead shot game meat and the blood level levels decreased. 00:48:00 Speaker 1: I want to see that well. 00:48:00 Speaker 2: I mean I remember the one they did where they like took hunters and urban dwellers, and the urban dwellers had higher lead from environmental lead condamination than the hunters. So I think, are you supposed to do fill out a question like you're going to ask people what'd you shoot it with? 00:48:13 Speaker 6: So so we'll go, I'm gonna just let me see. So for example, in Minnesota, you if if you are a hunter who's donating meat, you actually have to get your meat processed by a Minnesota Department of Ag registered meat processing plant, and they will in fact X ray the meat for lead fragments. So in New York I think that they would probably transition to something similar. And then but these are that Minnesota is the only state that has this. So in California, for example, for hunting of any kind, you can't use lead AMMO, so there isn't a worry there. And then there are two others that have rules around warning labels, so that would be Iowa and South Dakota. At at food banks, if they're distributing meat while gay meat on the bag it says not tested for lead, and there's a lead warning to pregnant women and children. All other states, it's just there's there's nothing in place against this. So in any case, this bill, lawmakers expect it to be reintroduced and pursued in twenty twenty seven. It's gone through a couple of committees. They don't think it'll come up again this year, but next year we'll look out for it. 00:49:44 Speaker 2: And man, well, the thing I don't get about it a little bit is how am I still alive? 00:49:51 Speaker 6: Have we ever tested your Have we tested your blood led levels. Has anyone I have I feel. 00:49:57 Speaker 1: Like I have had that done. Yeah, ask my kids to dead. 00:50:05 Speaker 6: One more quick bit out of New York. This is positive news for the hunting community. We we almost reported about this the other week and then and then a veto got overturned. So uh in the county in Erie County, which is western New York where the capital Buffalo is UH, there was a there was a proposal to veto a youth hunting law that exists in the state, which is that youth teenagers can use a crossbow, a rifle, a shotgun, or a mule muzzle loading firearm to hunt if supervised, and a county executive went against this. So last week it was like, oh my gosh, you know teens and youth and Erie County can't hunt supervise with these means. But then the county legislator actually over rode the county executive's veto and adopted the youth hunting law. So it was eight to three. There were three Democrats who upheld the veto and two Democrats joined uh, six Republicans to override the veto, so. 00:51:26 Speaker 1: To hear Man splitting them doms off. 00:51:28 Speaker 6: YEP they're split, and so now youth twelve and twelve and up. I think it's twelve to fifteen or twelve to sixteen can use those those crossbow, rifle, shotgun and muzzle loader to hunt. 00:51:46 Speaker 5: Here, it's a how how can a county like decide they're not going to follow a statewide hunting How's. 00:51:52 Speaker 1: That the county issue? 00:51:54 Speaker 5: Very strange. 00:51:55 Speaker 2: Imagine they did that and you're like lived in that county and all the other as you can do it from your county. 00:52:01 Speaker 1: You can't do it. 00:52:03 Speaker 4: It's just weird. 00:52:04 Speaker 1: Man. I don't want to get into this vision. 00:52:05 Speaker 2: I want to push this vigilat. I wouldn't vigil any that the legislati. 00:52:11 Speaker 4: Quote from the guy, the legislature has an opportunity to override my veto and they may do that, and if they do it, that's their constitutional right. But if they do that and a child dies in the future, my conscience will be clean. 00:52:23 Speaker 3: Oh god, yeah, God, he. 00:52:25 Speaker 1: Knows he's in the wrong. 00:52:27 Speaker 2: He regretted it probably pretty quick, and then he had to do like a little deal like that to try to make. 00:52:32 Speaker 1: It smooth it over. 00:52:33 Speaker 6: And this laws existed since twenty twenty one, and there have been no reported hunting related shooting incidents, violations or license fe vacations. But I think this county exec and others will will will look at incidents across the country and say what if. 00:52:52 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so I see here to the question of the county. It looks like they the state Department of Environmental blah blah blah. They they said twelve to thirteen year olds can hunt with firearm or crossbow in counties that have passed local legislation. So they sort of like empowered counties to rapped into this pilot program. 00:53:18 Speaker 2: Wow, they're making a county by county issue. That's some confusing game laws. Man, county by county because you already thinking about. 00:53:27 Speaker 6: To be a region, do you have to be a resident of the county? 00:53:31 Speaker 1: Would be where? 00:53:31 Speaker 2: I'm sure it be where you are, But I mean, come on, man, you go to locate. 00:53:35 Speaker 1: Hey, what county you in? Buddy? I don't, Dad, what if? 00:53:39 Speaker 4: What if you have a property that spans county lines? 00:53:43 Speaker 1: Can you shoot? Don't? That's what I'm saying. That's where it gets. That's where it gets. 00:53:46 Speaker 4: Such horseship, your stand is in County X. There are many many one hundred yards away in county. 00:53:52 Speaker 1: Why that's stupid. 00:53:53 Speaker 2: You should really not do game laws by the county by county. I mean something that is fundamental is like what age can you with? 00:54:00 Speaker 1: What weapons? 00:54:01 Speaker 2: Should not be a county by county issue. Anyhow, Spencer's been out fishing. 00:54:07 Speaker 7: All right, some fishing news. West Virginia has produced five new state record fish in the last two months. Let's talk about them. Good first one April. Second, good Lord, fifteen year old hunter Roar catches a twenty eight inch eleven point eighty four pound golden rainbow trout on the south. 00:54:29 Speaker 1: Fish's tail. 00:54:31 Speaker 3: They love. We call them Palomina calls back there. 00:54:35 Speaker 5: People love the I don't get it, but they're very easy to find in a stream. 00:54:40 Speaker 3: Oh I just spent I spend hours trying to catch those things. 00:54:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a high is it? Is it fertile or not fertile? Let me tell you about it. Okay, So every spring, are you going to include what's wrong with that fish? It's sick? 00:54:54 Speaker 7: Well, I don't know what's up with its tail. My guess it the raceway and up against cement. 00:55:00 Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, oh yeah, that's that's what we call broodstock. So that fish sad what everybody calls broodstock. 00:55:07 Speaker 2: Oh, let Spencer do his little news reportment. But I think that he's embarrassed. He didn't realize that that something's wrong with that fish. 00:55:13 Speaker 5: Yeah. 00:55:15 Speaker 7: Every spring, during an event called the West that the West Virginia Department of Natural Resources refers to as gold Rush, they released golden rainbow trout across the state. This year, they stalked fifty thousand of them in sixty nine different lakes and streams. 00:55:30 Speaker 5: Now. 00:55:30 Speaker 7: These are not to be confused with the California golden trout, which is a native species to the Sierra Nevadas. Some consider those California golden trout to be their own species. Some say it's the subspecies of the coastal rainbow. Either way, that is not this fish. These are West Virginia golden rainbow trout, also known as Palomino trout or banana trout. They were made at a West Virginia hat trie do you zoom in on my fingers back in the nineteen fifties camera the first stocking being in nineteen sixty two, and they were created after a regular rainbow trout was born with a mutation that gave it gold coloring. They then took that trout's offspring and produced and continued to breathe them to create the founding population of Palomino trout that we know today now. This angler caught this fish on day three of gold rush. He was using eggs from a steelhead that he caught out of a stream near Lake Erie. The fifteen year old said the fight lasted two minutes and that the fish was quote too fat to jump. It broke the old record. Broke the old record by more than two pounds. The angler said that they filleted the fish after the record was. 00:56:46 Speaker 4: Missing. 00:56:46 Speaker 1: It seems like fish pellets. 00:56:48 Speaker 4: It was he missing half its motor there too. 00:56:50 Speaker 7: Here's the weirdest part of the whole story that we've already addressed. Gold trout. They don't reproduce after their stocked. The bright color makes them an easy target for predators, and they also very very rarely survive the hottest parts of the summer in West Virginia. Here's a quote from a fish biologist about palomino trout that are stocked in West Virginia's northern neighbor, Pennsylvania. Quote, it would be highly unexpected to find a golden rainbow trout surviving as a holdover into the next year. So this state record was most likely stocked three days prior by West Virginia. 00:57:25 Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. That's why you're even talking about. 00:57:27 Speaker 7: It, because it's good fodder to talk about West Virginia stocking a state record that some fifteen year old catches three days. 00:57:34 Speaker 2: I got kill that hog or something, and the dude's like, I just sold them that hog's I. 00:57:41 Speaker 1: Got pictures of it in my truck. 00:57:42 Speaker 5: I'll tell you what these things were good for. Is fine in the other fish because they think so you find one, you're the. 00:57:49 Speaker 2: Only interesting thing about this image is that man has a very good belt. 00:57:55 Speaker 1: Okay, I used to wear that belt. 00:57:57 Speaker 2: You can you could wrapple off that belt the way that can work. You can clip a caraban around to that point. I have that belt. It wears mine. 00:58:05 Speaker 7: I reached out to the West Virginia DNR for their take. Did this fish defy the odds and survive a previous stocking or did they release two days prior? I know, but I want to hear them say it. I want to hear the West Virginia DNR like, yeah, we just let it off of a truck three days prior. That would satisfy me. So I reached out to them. Have not heard back yet. 00:58:24 Speaker 1: Oh God, got excited for a minute. 00:58:26 Speaker 5: I don't think you're going to hear back from him. 00:58:27 Speaker 7: That was state record number one. Here's state record number two, Donnie Workman, there we go another man County sets a new state record for a tiger trout at Summit Late. 00:58:41 Speaker 1: You got believe. 00:58:45 Speaker 5: Pound fish. Let me tell you about it. Believe Donnie was using meal. 00:58:49 Speaker 7: Worms and orange salmon eggs. He caught the fish on eight pound tests. West Virginia keeps records for length and weight, and Donnie's fish now holds both of those. Weighed half a pound more than the old record, which was caught in twenty twenty five. It measured half an inch longer than the old record, which was caught less than a month earlier. All three of those state records tiger trout were caught from three different bodies of water, which is pretty unique, but similar to the banana trout. The tiger trout is largely a synthetic fish that's made by crossing a female brown with a male brook. 00:59:23 Speaker 1: There is some I like how he's got tied up with his bootlegs though. 00:59:26 Speaker 5: Man, Yeah, yeah, I like that. 00:59:32 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:59:32 Speaker 5: I figured out that Spencer loves these man made fish because he used to work in fish hatchery. 00:59:38 Speaker 7: Now, there is some natural reproduction in the wild, but the vast majority of tiger trout come from a hatchery. West Virginia did some stocking in the nineteen sixties and eighties, and then they restarted the program in twenty nineteen. So this rush of tiger trout records is not really surprised. 00:59:54 Speaker 2: So the next one's gonna be a new record. Chuck e cheese ber trout? 00:59:58 Speaker 5: Did Donnie eat that? 01:00:03 Speaker 7: We're looking at pictures of the state record fish now, and Donnie is someone who I refer to as a paid actor because he looks like a fellow who would be catching the state record tiger trout in West Virginia. 01:00:14 Speaker 1: Because the next thing, a real fish, State record number three was a chain pickerel. 01:00:21 Speaker 3: Fish. 01:00:21 Speaker 7: It gets a little fake here in a second. Matt Bourne caught a twenty eight incher on April twenty first. 01:00:29 Speaker 4: Uh. 01:00:29 Speaker 7: He was fishing a private pond in Preston County. The fish beat the old record by less than a quarter of an inch, which was a record that he set in twenty nineteen. 01:00:39 Speaker 1: Let's speak about that. 01:00:40 Speaker 7: The previous record came from the same pond, same as a private pond that's obviously growing giant chain pickerel, So it's not fake. 01:00:48 Speaker 1: But you know that's better than other fish. 01:00:51 Speaker 7: It's you know, the native, same private pond chain pickerel in twenty nineteen, freaking big. 01:01:02 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a disappointing fish to fish for because you never get a big one. 01:01:06 Speaker 7: No, And Matt was using a homemade spinner that he created the night before, so that's way cool. 01:01:11 Speaker 1: That's cool. 01:01:11 Speaker 7: He's fishing from a kayak. And he said the battle lasted ten minutes with the pickerel towing him around the pond, which again pickerel don't grow all that big, so that is a wow minutes. 01:01:21 Speaker 3: What's he using for tackle? 01:01:22 Speaker 2: He had a ten minute tussle. He had a tussle with that fish that pulled him around a pond. 01:01:27 Speaker 7: I imagine he was using some ultra light. 01:01:29 Speaker 1: Tackle pulled him around the pot. 01:01:31 Speaker 7: That's what he said. 01:01:32 Speaker 3: Say, if I got that thing, it would be about three seconds. 01:01:35 Speaker 7: Both he plans to get the round the pond, plans to get the fish mounted and will display it with this previous record that is also mounted. 01:01:44 Speaker 2: Oh so he killed the previous record, so that's not the previous record a year later. 01:01:49 Speaker 7: No, he well the previous records from twenty nineteen. So I don't think this is the twenty nineteen. 01:01:54 Speaker 2: For a minute, I thought you were suggesting that he keeps catching this fish now keeps breaking its own. 01:01:59 Speaker 1: But I bet the next state record is also swimming around that point. I don't think you can blame the dude because it's a private pond. 01:02:05 Speaker 7: I'm not blaming him. I'm just saying, if you were disappointed those guys with the fish hatchery fish, you're not going to love the private pond. 01:02:13 Speaker 3: Ponds the wrong people. 01:02:17 Speaker 4: But I also think if the DNR is dumping fish somewhere and you go out and catch one, and you're like a public access guy, you're just showing up to the river. 01:02:28 Speaker 5: You you hating Brody and seth. 01:02:31 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, you're mixing up what I hate. I don't. 01:02:34 Speaker 2: I don't think if the state has a hatchery and they have broodstock and they take some diseased tailless fish and like throw it out into a creek and the dude catches it. 01:02:46 Speaker 1: That's fine. I just don't think it's news. 01:02:50 Speaker 7: I think state record, man, it's a state record, I think if it's record in West Virginia angling history. Fourth state record was a red horse sucker caught by the Roch in Fayette County. It weighed six and a half pounds measured twenty five and a half inches. He caught that on May seventh. Just like the tiger trout. This fish now holds the length and weight record in West Virginia, one pound heavier and one inch longer than the old record, which was caught in twenty twenty five. The angler was using corn when he caught that. 01:03:24 Speaker 4: Ye, the guys in the background taking pictures the wrong thing. 01:03:27 Speaker 5: Something else. 01:03:28 Speaker 4: I have a state record sucker right there. 01:03:31 Speaker 1: Talking about like hiding and plain sight. 01:03:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're taking scenics, not realizing that what they're actually looking at out the corner of their left eye. 01:03:38 Speaker 5: Uh huh. 01:03:38 Speaker 1: This is a state right state rough fish. 01:03:40 Speaker 7: And he was fishing at Canawa Fall. So maybe that's what that that fella in the red. 01:03:44 Speaker 2: Shi because that's a legit fish in a legit location. That's a fish that's a that's a fish of. 01:03:53 Speaker 7: A lifetime, although they often get lumped in with carp red horse or a sucker that's native to central and eastern North America. As the name implies, they have red fins. They could especially colorful during the spawn. Now here's the most interesting thing about red horse. They're actually the fish on the trivia logo that we have that is a red. 01:04:09 Speaker 1: Press fish right there. 01:04:11 Speaker 5: Grind them up into. 01:04:14 Speaker 1: Zach roper. Congratulate Mountain. 01:04:17 Speaker 7: Didn't get those details. 01:04:18 Speaker 4: Yeah, everything was record red. 01:04:20 Speaker 7: Never see stuff suckers, all right. Fifth state record, and this is the biggest one, is for blue catfish. 01:04:27 Speaker 3: There you go. 01:04:27 Speaker 7: It was set on by Michael Raimie. It weighed seventy one pounds and made measured fifty inches long. Man Michael was on the Ohio River in Jackson County. He was using cut bait on one hundred pound tests. He was targeting giant cat It beat the old record by one and a half pounds, but it was an inch short of the length record. So this fish just holds the weight record. Length record was set in twenty twenty five and the weight record in twenty twenty three, so both of those were modern records. That he was competing for. Michael was fishing in a catfish tournament that day. It was a five fish limit, and this was the only fish that Michael's boat caught and it gave them second place. So that one singular fish got them second place in a fish out. 01:05:16 Speaker 2: Dude, I mean, he's he's throwing in one hundred you know, he's he's targeting big boys and that's it. 01:05:21 Speaker 1: He's not dropping crawlers off the back of that boat. 01:05:24 Speaker 4: Florida just certified a new record blue catfish too, like a week or two ago. 01:05:29 Speaker 1: Man. That is a that is a that is a twenty pounds. 01:05:33 Speaker 5: Its good time to be twenty pounds heavier than the inches long. It's crazy. 01:05:39 Speaker 7: Oh yeah, that's true. This blue cat was caught on May ninth. It's the second heaviest fish ever caught in West Virginia, second only to the state record grasscarp which was caught in two thousand and five. That weigh seventy one pounds seventy one point six nine pounds, so just half a pound bigger than West Virginia's new record blue cat. Michael's fish was released, So we're still out there somewhere in the Ohio River. Now, why West Virginia is like suddenly producing all these records. The DNR had some statements about you know what these factors are. One is they say the state's water quality is the best it's been in decades thanks to actions by the West Virginia Department of Environmental Protection. Technology also playing a role, like Seth talked about last week with bill fish, it's never been easier to locate big fish with sonar. And then finally, and this is probably the biggest one of them, except this fish stocking programs. 01:06:34 Speaker 1: None of those fish were none of those fish were located with electronics. This one was, yeah, you've found out electronics. 01:06:39 Speaker 7: So the best example of all three of these, the water quality, technology and stocking programs is the blue catfish. The Ohio River is significantly significantly cleaner now than it was fifty years ago. The species was reintroduced to portions of the Ohio River in the mid two thousands. So this onslaught of blue cat records in West Virginia is because a stockfish are now reaching like record book sizes. And also this catfish was found with sonarcause it said that in the outdoor life just didn't give specifics, but it said that they were going by this zone and marked this spot and then fish for this fish. 01:07:18 Speaker 1: Really so technology, that's almost more impressive weirdly what finding them on Like, Yeah, that. 01:07:27 Speaker 2: You'd find a big that you'd find a big record cat and then target it. I think I hear that, and I'm like that demonstrates angling prowess in a way to me personally, it does him shiplucking into it would not. 01:07:42 Speaker 5: But it also is kind of like having a live update on a trail camera and. 01:07:47 Speaker 1: Go, but he let it go. 01:07:49 Speaker 7: Anyway. 01:07:49 Speaker 1: Yeah, catch that sucker next year with the big red horse. 01:07:52 Speaker 3: And it's like it's like finding the white tail and then targeting it. You'd be impressed. 01:07:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a help fish man five new records. 01:08:03 Speaker 5: You worked your way up to the good ones. 01:08:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, he did. 01:08:05 Speaker 1: He put him in order. He put him in order. 01:08:08 Speaker 7: This guy, he's also he's a paid actor as well. For a dude who would catch a. 01:08:12 Speaker 1: Big, huge character. 01:08:13 Speaker 4: That guy looks like a blast. 01:08:15 Speaker 7: The guy who's trying to do the organ anti hunting legislation. He's a paid actor. He looks just like a Bagan activist Matt and Aaron. He's a paid actor. He looks just like a really cool anthropologist. 01:08:27 Speaker 2: This dude looks like Bill Burr. If Bill Burr ate that catfish, Yeah, that's good. 01:08:36 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, all those fish are filled with fast chemicals. 01:08:40 Speaker 1: Real buzz kill, real buzzkill from seth. 01:08:45 Speaker 3: A recent study released by the Montana Department Environmental Quality shows high levels of p fast chemicals in fish flesh across the state of Montana. Huh so, some of you might know what you know. A lot of people know what p fast chemicals are, but some of you might not know. If you're living under a rock these days. P fasts are large group of man made forever chemicals used since the nineteen forties to make products resistant to heat, water, grease, and stains. Be Fast are often referred to as forever chemicals because they do not readily break down in the environment or the human body. They have been widely used in nonstick cookwaar stained resistant fabrics, firefighting foams, and numerous industrial products. Research say p fast exposure has been linked to health is used such as several different types of cancers like kidney and testicular cancer, immune system dysfunction, developmental effects in children, and a ton of other health problems. So the study the so the Department of Environmental Quality in Montana. They looked at several different bodies of water across Montana, thirteen different ones. In fact, the study found that fish tissue samples collected in twenty twenty three contained significant concentrations of P fast chemicals. At least one type of P fast was presented, was present in seventy percent of samples submitted. Man of forty p fast chemicals. The lab tested for. The type of or the type that appeared most frequently was bear with me here per fluoro. 01:10:55 Speaker 8: Because yeah, yeah, commonly found where am I here? 01:11:08 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that that chemical is commonly found in the firefighting foam used at airports and military bases, which is interesting because what they've done blot of fire retardant around these parts during the summer. 01:11:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, because these are fish out of the Yellowstone So, which is an undamned river and doesn't flow through any kind of industrial landscape. Yep, it's just it's like purely like atmospheric contamination. 01:11:34 Speaker 3: So in late twenty twenty four, scientists at the. 01:11:37 Speaker 2: Oh no no, because I guess if you if Pennsley caught them below Billings or not. 01:11:40 Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll get to that here. Okay. In twenty twenty four, signs at MONTANDIQU had completed their analysis and drafted fish consumption advisory warnings for residents to limit or avoid eating fish from several popular waterways. However, for some weird reason, those advisories didn't make it to the public until recently in twenty twenty seven. 01:12:08 Speaker 5: Those that's completely separate from like existing consumption advices that you can find on the fvp's website for anybody along. 01:12:16 Speaker 3: So let's get into the details here. An acceptable p fast level in drinking water is four parts per trillion. Okay, okay, that's what's acceptable for drinking water. Four parts per trillion. Now, Phil, go back to number one there. Sure, So this is this is I'm looking. This is a chart for four peck if you look all the way to the right. Yep, what what that so like? For example, the Northern Pike for twenty six to thirty inches that they they tested, they found three point five that that boils down to three thousand, five hundred parts per trillion. Ooh really yeah? 01:12:53 Speaker 5: Thousand times? God, yeah, thousand times. Except if you look. 01:12:57 Speaker 3: At a walleye twenty two to twenty six inches five thousand, four hundred parts per trillion. So if you eat one walleye that size out of four peck, you're. 01:13:07 Speaker 5: Feeding a lot of them that size out of fort peck. 01:13:11 Speaker 1: Number two thought I was already dead from the leg. 01:13:13 Speaker 3: Yeah you think that's crazy. Look this one East Gallaton River. Whoa attend to fourteen inch rainbow trout eighteen one hundred parts per trillion. 01:13:25 Speaker 4: But that's fluoro telomere kerboxilic acid. 01:13:28 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's still bad. My goodness, go the next one, Phil. 01:13:37 Speaker 1: I'm just looking. 01:13:38 Speaker 2: Forward to all humans being gone and then millions of years to go buy and the planet's cool again. 01:13:43 Speaker 1: Man, this is the this is the forever chemicals. That's the whole problem. 01:13:47 Speaker 2: Though, they'll still be there like dinosaurs running back around again, and it'll be like that'll be all contaminated. 01:13:55 Speaker 3: So as you can see with these numbers, it's like off the charts. 01:13:58 Speaker 7: In imagine this is an exclusive to Montana. 01:14:01 Speaker 5: No Montana is dealing with it. 01:14:03 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll get to that, but you're you're correct. 01:14:07 Speaker 1: It's an inciting incident to the story. 01:14:10 Speaker 3: D d Q scientists recommends stringent interim fish consumption advisories based on updated guidance from the the US Environmental protect Protection Agency. The proposed advisories included avoid recommendations for several fish species for most of them, yeah. 01:14:31 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, that's like just. 01:14:34 Speaker 3: Yeah, the most severe recommendations of all four Peck reservoir. 01:14:40 Speaker 2: So depending on the waterway. Just for listeners, we got like, I'm looking at avoids. Avoids on northeast, Avoids on wally dogs, Avoids on blue sockers, these are voids on browns Avoids on mountain whities yea. 01:14:57 Speaker 3: And these are for different bodies of water. 01:14:58 Speaker 1: Avoids on small MoU. 01:15:00 Speaker 2: I'm just going to give it a general there's an avoid on yellow perch channel cats. 01:15:04 Speaker 5: And it's interesting that that Peck has all those avoids and like, because that's like the downstream terminus of. 01:15:11 Speaker 3: Well, if you look at like, everything ends up there. If you look at Canne Fairy, it's not that bad, but as you go down the line, it's worse. 01:15:19 Speaker 2: Like that whole vigilantie deal. I was telling you this when you first brought this up to me, I said, ignore it. 01:15:28 Speaker 1: I'm not stopping. 01:15:30 Speaker 2: I don't care if you told me that those fish had hand grenades in them. 01:15:33 Speaker 1: I'm not stopping eating them. 01:15:36 Speaker 5: So you have a different attitude about this than you do CWD. 01:15:40 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I know that that won't be what kills me. 01:15:47 Speaker 3: I know that CWD won't be the thing that kills you either. 01:15:50 Speaker 1: No. No, I'll die have a heart attack later that was caused by p FACT. 01:15:56 Speaker 4: Tree branch will fall on you. 01:15:58 Speaker 3: Oh yeah. The risks of p fas chemical are still very abstract compared to CWT. 01:16:02 Speaker 5: Sure says got more, but like this stuff is like there's been game agencies around the country that are saying, like, don't eat ducks from this area. Don't eat dear friend, listen, I know. 01:16:12 Speaker 2: You're wrong, don't you know what. I hope no one eats it, just me personally. I'm not gonna stop eating fish because of this, because there's like a quality of life issue. 01:16:22 Speaker 1: I'm not looking like that guy. The guy from earlier the moment will sickly and pale and yeah eating potatoes. 01:16:30 Speaker 4: If if I end up looking like that guy, people are gonna come to me and say, man, you've really done some lifestyle changes that you look great. 01:16:39 Speaker 1: You could use them. Channel catfish disciplined. 01:16:45 Speaker 3: So Montana's final recommendations are significantly less restrictive, Steve, you'll like to hear this good the nose proposed by d q uh go to. I can't stop fro this is this is just a snapshot of Montana's current recommendations. 01:17:03 Speaker 4: And it's easy to understand. 01:17:07 Speaker 3: Well, there's there's a key here. Yeah, there's a key here to look. But anyway, like the obviously that circles with the exes are the do not consider. 01:17:16 Speaker 1: So give me an example of what they're saying don't eat? 01:17:19 Speaker 3: All right, So let's for fort Peck. They're saying a walleye for women and children that's twenty two to twenty six inches. Women and children should eat that. 01:17:32 Speaker 7: Huh what does the two mean for like a twenty o? 01:17:34 Speaker 1: My wife are the final I think that? 01:17:37 Speaker 3: Yeah? Feels per month? Yeah yeah yeah. And then the little fish the fish icon is a safe to eat god. 01:17:48 Speaker 5: I mean generally it's like the bigger the fish, the less you eat of them. 01:17:52 Speaker 3: Saying like. 01:17:55 Speaker 2: The takeaway is is that that that that the takeaway is that we're ruining the planet. 01:18:01 Speaker 6: Yep, Yeah, there's plastic and everything. 01:18:04 Speaker 3: Yeah, Montana is not alone when it comes to p fast chemicals. 01:18:08 Speaker 1: Not ruining it. But degrading it significantly. 01:18:12 Speaker 3: This is a nationwide issue. 01:18:15 Speaker 1: We're not even in the hot zone. 01:18:16 Speaker 3: Research indicates, yeah, this is. 01:18:20 Speaker 5: Great Lakes. 01:18:21 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, p p A has found P fast and freshwater fish on these three m along. 01:18:28 Speaker 2: Its wild In Nevada, they've found no P fast and fresh water because they found no fresh water in Nevada. Not joking in Nevada. In Nevada is the only state I'm looking at it doesn't have a p fast. 01:18:40 Speaker 1: Dot on it. 01:18:41 Speaker 5: So I wonder if that because they haven't tested for it. 01:18:44 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's even in the South. There's even stuff in Alaska. 01:18:49 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:18:50 Speaker 2: But then just for people that they're listening and not looking, there's just just like dots kind of parts per billion and composite samples and real you know, most of the country is very sporadic. The Mississippi's got Boku dots, and the Great Lakes all the way out the Saint Lawrence Seaway has Boku dots. 01:19:12 Speaker 3: Yep. 01:19:13 Speaker 5: I mean. 01:19:13 Speaker 4: The other the other part of this story too, is that the Montana research was all done, that report was finalized three years ago and they just released it to the public. 01:19:26 Speaker 3: Big Well. 01:19:27 Speaker 2: They also just had you know, like P fast stuff because California bandits all companies are moving away from P fast because because everybody's just moving away from P fast. So waterproofing on jackets is going to go downhill and hopefully fish quality will go up. But they're forever chemicals, so they're never going to go away. 01:19:42 Speaker 9: M h. 01:19:43 Speaker 1: It's got to keep eating them fish. That's not my recommendation. 01:19:46 Speaker 6: Attention to what you cook in. If you have a nonstick pan that's. 01:19:49 Speaker 3: Coated, yeah, tough one. 01:19:52 Speaker 6: Licking P fast up. 01:19:54 Speaker 5: I think that hot grease just fries it right out of those. 01:19:58 Speaker 2: That's just saying yeah, tell that'd be like that guy that remember that remember that legislator that said about c w D. 01:20:06 Speaker 1: He's like, just cook it to done, and someone's like, you have to cook it to un temperature. 01:20:11 Speaker 2: No, it was like like one three hundred degrees or something like that. 01:20:15 Speaker 3: Damn One thing I read when doing this research on this is the that data centers are the water cycling through data centers is releasing a shipload of pfast chemicals. 01:20:26 Speaker 1: Really, m. 01:20:28 Speaker 8: No. 01:20:29 Speaker 4: I had a lot of I had a lot of people reach out to me about data centers because they love them. No, people that are are building building them, working them things of that nature. 01:20:39 Speaker 6: We got a ton of emails, Thank you everybody. I got to go through them. 01:20:42 Speaker 2: I got a good Uh, I got a good I got a good guest. 01:20:46 Speaker 1: I'm flirting with on that subject matter. Not flirt, that's a terrible word. No, it's chatting. Chatting a journalist. She's doing a book on the whole subject. Oh are you done? That was a great segment. 01:21:05 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it. 01:21:05 Speaker 1: Are you gonna curtail? You're fish eating? 01:21:07 Speaker 5: That's what I was gonna ask I have. 01:21:08 Speaker 3: I haven't honestly eaten a lot of fish in Montana in the last ever since I got mercury poisoning. A lot of these fish are a lot of it like that. Stuffy showed a lot of stuff. You're real high mercury as well. 01:21:20 Speaker 1: You're not eating the fish because of the mercury. 01:21:22 Speaker 3: I just eat all the fat, all my fish consumptions, just to Alaska stuff for the most part. 01:21:28 Speaker 7: Huh. 01:21:29 Speaker 4: Didn't you also poison yourself with Alaska fish at some point? 01:21:32 Speaker 3: No, white fish, Hawaii fish, golf goldfish. 01:21:39 Speaker 2: They should be you know, people gotta they'll put a map up and put a thumbtack everywhere that thumbtack everywhere has been poisoned by You know what d Q should do. 01:21:48 Speaker 5: They should be saying, don't worry about the fish. They should be sampling the anglers. 01:21:53 Speaker 1: For pea fast. Yeah. 01:21:56 Speaker 2: But I always tell my favorite story about my dad's buddy that I grew up with one my fishing mentors, Ron Spring, because he had eaten so much Great Lakes fishes whole life. He was a commercial bait fisherman, so for a living he caught bait and then. 01:22:10 Speaker 1: Lived off fish. My dad fished them all the time. They used to. He used to go for these routine. 01:22:18 Speaker 2: Cognitive tests to test him for all of his exposure to Great Lakes fish. And the punchline of the joke, and I always tell this punchline. The punchline of the joke is he was telling me about he would go to MSU in Lansing, Michigan periodicly, that can't mem for his every six months or every year, and they would give him a list of stuff to remember. He's telling me. He'd say, they're like, Ron, you need to go to the store and get milk, eggs, mountain dew, right whatever. 01:22:53 Speaker 1: Tell him a bunch of things He's supposed to get at the store. 01:22:55 Speaker 2: Then he said they'd wait a minute and they'd go, what are you supposed to get at the store. And I remember he said to me, Steve, I wouldn't remembered that list if I never ate a piece of fish in. 01:23:05 Speaker 1: My whole life. And uh, you know, so they were looking into this back then. Yeah, he loved to be a very old man. 01:23:18 Speaker 5: There you go. 01:23:18 Speaker 2: I sold him a huge snapper turtle one time and he knew this other. 01:23:24 Speaker 5: Dude back in your days of illegal stuff. 01:23:27 Speaker 2: Well no, no, because no, because you could get a commercial, commercial turtle back then. 01:23:37 Speaker 1: Uh. 01:23:41 Speaker 2: I later went to profile him. He was he was old, He's an old man, and I was communicating with him and that because I wanted to profile him. I wanted to go out and spend time with him. I was pitching it when I was this is when I was writing for Outside magazine, and I was like, I want to do a profile of like a bait fisherman. So he like claps he would go out himself and collect leeches, wigglers, crawlers, shiners, suckermentos, like he would be the guy. 01:24:09 Speaker 1: That sold all the live bait. 01:24:11 Speaker 2: Honest, Yeah, a buddy has even started a live bait vending thing. 01:24:15 Speaker 1: That didn't take off a vending machine to buy live bait. 01:24:18 Speaker 5: Did he sell himself or sell to bait chops. 01:24:20 Speaker 2: He had springs outdoors, so he had springs sorry spring sporting goods. But even after spring sporting goods ended, he still supplied bait. That was just his business. His whole life, leeches, wigglers, everything. And I wanted to profile him in his eighties. I think it was in his late seventies or eighties, because I'm like, at this point, you know, And he said, I have spent my life developing my methods. I view it as proprietary, and I don't want to show anybody. 01:24:54 Speaker 4: Dang that he was not worried about dude put him out of business in his I've been I was at his place and he had women that would tie He had women that would do piece work. 01:25:09 Speaker 1: Tie in spawn sacks. 01:25:11 Speaker 2: Where you take that mesh to use that weddings to put mints and peanuts in. 01:25:14 Speaker 5: That's what they caught, that golden, beautiful golden trout. On the spawns. 01:25:19 Speaker 2: You put like three three salmon eggs, like three chinook eggs, a couple of little foam balls. 01:25:25 Speaker 1: So it's buoyant and tie it off. 01:25:28 Speaker 2: He would have women doing piece work tie in spawn sacks and then he put those in those little plastic tubs they sell flies in nowadays when you buy flies, and you could go and buy like six spawn sacks tied by Ron Spring. Yep, I just the last story about last story about Rond Spring. When I was a little kid, this is terrible. I was fishing with mile Man. I was a little kid, and we found on the ice a big northern pike someone had just left laying outside the hole, just fro you know. 01:25:58 Speaker 1: Fish looks and it's been laying there for and stiff. It was frozen stiff. 01:26:02 Speaker 2: My dad picks it up and throws it to me because it's frozen rock solid. 01:26:08 Speaker 1: He throws it to me and I catch it. He goes, you caught that pike? 01:26:12 Speaker 2: Now, I told Ron Spring. I was probably like five or six. I told Ron Spring, I caught a twenty eight inch pike. 01:26:20 Speaker 1: You felt felt so bad. I called him back and told. 01:26:23 Speaker 2: My lie, wow, I felt so crooked. 01:26:28 Speaker 3: He's an honest man. 01:26:31 Speaker 2: Paddygonia is suing a drag queen named Paddy Gonya. Does this individual go by him or heard. 01:26:38 Speaker 1: You know, did you read this? No? 01:26:41 Speaker 5: I thought I saw that. 01:26:43 Speaker 2: I'm just gonna say, Paddy going you, this is a dragon. I can't believe you could say drag queen and not get in trouble. Doesn't that seem like a thing you wouldn't be able to say anymore? But they use it drag queen. 01:26:52 Speaker 3: That's totally fine. 01:26:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, but there's some things that you this drag queen is Paddy going you? 01:27:00 Speaker 6: Now? 01:27:00 Speaker 7: According to Patty, she heard when in Drag in Drag she goes by she, and when not in Drag, when Wiley identifies as a gay man who uses he him, there you go. 01:27:14 Speaker 1: I'm gonna stick. I'm gonna stick to the character in in Drag. There's a there's a there's a drag. 01:27:21 Speaker 2: There's a climate activist nature environmental activist. 01:27:28 Speaker 1: Right here, Patty Gona Patty goes. 01:27:33 Speaker 2: She claims that the whole thing started when she was out hiking and brought some high heels and. 01:27:40 Speaker 1: Uh, you know the craziest part is that she has Seth's mustache. Look at this. 01:27:50 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was out hiking in high heels. Put out the high heels for a photograph, not Seth's hare no, I wish I said, I should have never cut my hair. 01:27:59 Speaker 1: So she was out on a hike. She was out on a hike and. 01:28:02 Speaker 2: Took a picture of brought high heels, got to the top of some hill, took a picture of her and high heels and dubbed and created a persona a drag queen persona Patty Gonia. She claims that it was not in reference to the clothing company Patagonia. She claims it was in reference to the Argentinian and Chilean the region, which is the southern portions of Argentina, Argentina in Chile, Chilean Patagonia, Argentinian Patagonia. 01:28:34 Speaker 1: The south tip of South America. 01:28:36 Speaker 2: I just saw today where Patty Gonia made a video saying that was the inspiration the region. But she has a she sells clothing under Paddygonia, So pat Tugonia or Patagucci, pat Tugonia, she should just call herself Patty Gucci. 01:29:00 Speaker 1: And it had been like a double joke. 01:29:02 Speaker 5: They would have gone at Gucci. 01:29:05 Speaker 1: Yeah, they true money. 01:29:06 Speaker 3: You think a mustache is fake? 01:29:08 Speaker 1: No, No, I think it's yeah. 01:29:11 Speaker 2: Anyways, in a real bind, here's a I call this a feel good story because it makes me. It makes me laugh, and I called a heartwarming story because it heart warms my heart. I just think it's very funny. I've been enjoying the story for two days since it came out. It puts Padigon in a real bind. But it hearkens back to if you remember the dispute between north Face. There was a dispute a long time ago between north Face and South by Phil can you pull up north Face and south But okay, not familiar. So this is twenty years ago. North Face came out. A guy inverted the north Face logo and came out with a clothing line called the South Butt. 01:29:54 Speaker 1: A kid from Missouri and his dad did this. He was like a student. 01:29:58 Speaker 2: They come up with South Butt. North Face is like, hey, South Butt, you gotta quit. He says, give me a million bucks and I'll quit. Well, then South Butt took off and I'll say, say it's not for sale anymore. So then they come to some kind of undisclosed settlement where he'll stop selling South butt, close signs the settlement and then quickly launches the butt face. 01:30:22 Speaker 1: Do you got that one? 01:30:24 Speaker 3: Oh? 01:30:24 Speaker 2: No, quickly launches the butt face as like as like a total fu to the north face. 01:30:31 Speaker 1: And then he's found in violation of the deal. 01:30:35 Speaker 2: Then they're like, okay, ns enough. So he's like, okay, I'll quit the south butt. I'm switching to the butt face. 01:30:41 Speaker 4: He had to pay sixty five grand yeah for butt face. 01:30:44 Speaker 1: And then yeah, there it is. 01:30:45 Speaker 2: So then he's like, okay, I'll call it the butt face because they had never stopped climbing. So he's like, never stop smiling the butt face. Totally funny. He loses and he's done. So here we are now Patagonia is is toe to toe with Patauh Patty. 01:31:06 Speaker 1: All Right. 01:31:07 Speaker 2: The first thing I thought when I heard this, and I've been around, I've been around this this issue, the copyright. 01:31:13 Speaker 1: Thing, I've been around a fair bit over the years. 01:31:16 Speaker 2: The first thing I thought was, how is it applicable when there is a place called PATAGONI like, why can't you say no, I mean the place? 01:31:24 Speaker 1: It doesn't work. 01:31:25 Speaker 2: And if you want to think about why that doesn't work, it's like, let's say I start a online I started a website that sells everything you could ever possibly want, and I say I'm gonna call it Amazon, And you're like, well you can't because it's already one of those called Amazon. I'd be like, no, no, no, I mean the Jungle and like it for all the reasons you can imagine. 01:31:44 Speaker 1: Doesn't work to do that, all right. 01:31:46 Speaker 2: What Paddigonia is pressing is like that to stop. They want Patty Gonia to stop selling merch. But there's a lot of fan art. So Patty Gonio go on and show fan arc that uses the not just the name, but the Padagonia logo. And this has been done before. There was a gun company that took like an ar and made it look like with the multi colored iconic mountainscape thing. So Patty is saying, Okay, I'll stop using or showing the Patagonia logo, but you gotta lay off on me calling myself Paddy Gonia. That's the deal they're trying to strike. Okay, Paddygonia claims that pat Tugonia has known about her for eight years, but they're cherry picking this political moment, this particular political moment, to make their attack. 01:32:50 Speaker 1: H Okay. 01:32:53 Speaker 2: The question when you get into this kind of stuff is does it cause to a layman? Does it cause brand confusion? I watched one lawyer speaking about it, and the lawyer was saying, brand confusion would be you tell your baby boomer grandma, I want a Patagonia T shirt. Now, could this hypothetical baby boomer grandma search that up and wind up accidentally getting a Paddy Gonia T shirt? That would be like you've caused brand confusion. In the comment section to this lawyer breaking this down, there's one person that said, and I think they're lying. He said, my parents are boomers. They've never heard of the clothing company Patagonia, but they know about Paddygonia. Come on, yeah, another person said. Another person said, I am a boomer, and I can tell the difference between the clothing brand and a drag queen. So you have conflicting things about boomers. We should have brought one in and said, how confused. 01:34:09 Speaker 1: Are you by all? 01:34:09 Speaker 2: This an interesting little wrinkle here about trademark use, And this is the part that I've had. 01:34:15 Speaker 1: A lot of exposure to. 01:34:17 Speaker 2: When you trademark something, you're trademarking the use of the name for a purpose. And I thought, I was trying to think this morning of an example, and I thought of an example. But first I'll say that for thirty three years Patagonia is held they have they held, have held for thirty three years that they have exclusive on selling clothes under Patagonia. Let's say there's a prominent you know, like down on the Madison River. There's blacks Ford. Okay, there's a well known ford from historic times like that was a reliable, good, safe place to cross the Madison. Blacks Ford, that's where you would cross. Let's say I opened a restaurant at blacks Ford and I called the Ford. Okay, And I'm saying I'm opening a restaurant at the Ford called the Ford. Ford Motor Company that's not there. Probably I'm using example, but probably not their business because I'm opening a restaurant. 01:35:09 Speaker 1: Called the Ford at the Ford. 01:35:11 Speaker 2: But let's say I later go, man, I've developed a truck which is great for crossing the Ford. 01:35:19 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna call it the Ford. 01:35:22 Speaker 2: All of a sudden, now you are in Ford is coming after you now because now you're causing brand confusion. 01:35:30 Speaker 1: Your truck the Ford. 01:35:32 Speaker 2: Which you claim has nothing to do with Ford, it has to do with the Ford at the River. 01:35:37 Speaker 1: A judge is gonna be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, Yeah. 01:35:39 Speaker 2: You're creating brand confusion about Ford as a motor vehicle. 01:35:44 Speaker 4: If you're if you're a person who can create a successful restaurant venture in and around Bozeman, and you can invent a motor vehicle, you'll be just fine without that name. Yes, an impressive enough, an impressive impressive person, bridge your motors. 01:35:59 Speaker 2: Yes, you go and get so if you're establishing a brand. If you're establishing a brand, you don't know where the brand is going. That's why it's always a good idea to not use a word that's blocked up. Like let's say you're looking at a brand name and that happens to be there's a kayak company with that name, and you're like, well, I want to call my restaurant that, But then you realize that they have secured apparel, they've secured a multitude of water sports, and you're later like, well, I'm just going to be a restaurant. Well, what if you decide you're gonna sell hoodies, like you always gotta be careful you're gonna be I'm gonna sell my favorite knife, Well, there's already a knife company using that name, So you always gotta be careful about like where all it's been used in Patagoni situation. This puts them because their audience, Patagonia's audience is bifurcated. Finance dudes like those vests a lot, and they like those black fleeces a lot. There's a there's an understandable story about why finance guys love. 01:36:59 Speaker 4: Padda go. 01:37:01 Speaker 2: Because there used to be some very exclusive event and they'd give out like a like a vest. But if you didn't get invited to the vest to the event, you just go get it anyways, because then it looked like you'd been to the event. And now it just is that they wear Patagonia vests. 01:37:15 Speaker 7: They don't know why they're wearing them. 01:37:17 Speaker 2: No, but there's a history too that you can understand, and it's bifurcated to so they have this kind of like right ish right leaning thing, like how many investors have you ever met with a Patagonia jacket? 01:37:27 Speaker 1: They all have one. And then there's like a left leaning element like a real like an Arbor Madison Patagonia type that are diametrically opposed. 01:37:39 Speaker 5: Hiker, biker, yeah, flyfisher. 01:37:42 Speaker 2: So here, Patagonia is kind of like in this position of going after what would almost be sort of like a symbolic height of the left leaning aspect of tolerance and things that would come from their community. 01:37:58 Speaker 5: Yeah, and Patagonia's ethos is not right wing finance guys. Patagonians kind of et those is. 01:38:05 Speaker 2: Yeah, they take that money. Yeah, they take that money and use it for environmental causes that would ultimately be at odds with the people make giving them all the money by buying all the vests. This is very unscientific. It's just like observation if. 01:38:18 Speaker 7: There was like a woke business spectrum that range from like Trump Mobile to Starbucks. Like Patagonia is in the Starbucks catch very very Starbucks is always. 01:38:29 Speaker 2: Duke, get it out with unions. Now they've kind of lost their like leftiness. 01:38:33 Speaker 7: Point is they're like on this spectrum, they're very far left. 01:38:36 Speaker 1: Yeah, way woke, that's a good way of putting it. Way woke. 01:38:40 Speaker 2: And now they're attacking like the fringe woke side of woke. But here's why they're in a pickle. If you don't enforce your copyright, it counts against you in future copyright infringement things. Part of having a copyright is it is enforced because if someone goes if I say i'm gonna name something. I'm gonna come up and say, I'm gonna name an aftershave, and I'm calling it Burma shave. Well, in the twenties there was Burma shave. It's not around anymore. So if Burmashave has gone lax and has not enforced burmashave for two hundred years. 01:39:15 Speaker 4: Right, is that with an e oru b you are m a. 01:39:21 Speaker 1: Shave. 01:39:21 Speaker 2: And they became famous because they would put these sequential billboards up that would have a message, a rhyming message. So I was reminded of this recently because the tourism board in Arizona is putting out burmashave posters even though the product isn't around anymore, just like a nostalgia thing. 01:39:38 Speaker 1: Poor example. But what I'm. 01:39:39 Speaker 2: Saying is if Padigonia doesn't go after Paddy Gonia. 01:39:46 Speaker 1: And then an ar company. 01:39:48 Speaker 2: Uses it, it's hard for them to go after the ar company because it'd be like, but you don't enforce your trademark. You allow all these other people to do it. But now you're started to saying you're gonna all of a sudden enforced it with this person. So you have to be diligent that's why they're in a bind. And now Paddy Gonya has made a video saying. 01:40:13 Speaker 1: Stop the suit. She's very articulate. 01:40:18 Speaker 2: She says, don't take this out on the employees at Patagonia. It's not their problem. Don't be hostile, be respectful. I'll stop using the logo, but they need to stop the lawsuit about me using Paddy. 01:40:37 Speaker 1: I don't know where I stand on the whole thing Patagonia. 01:40:40 Speaker 7: Patagonia is suing for one dollar plus legal fees, and then the quote is we wish we didn't have to do this. It says, I. 01:40:48 Speaker 1: Wish you didn't have to do everything at work. 01:40:50 Speaker 5: The company companies said. The settlement will require Patagonia to withdraw all trademark applications, stop using Patagona's your logo, stop selling and promoting apparel and other products as Patty gone. 01:41:06 Speaker 2: I don't know who I'm rooting for. I think like I feel like I'm rooting. I feel like I'm rooting for Patty. Who are you rooting for? 01:41:14 Speaker 1: Spencer? 01:41:15 Speaker 2: Uh? 01:41:16 Speaker 7: I hope let's go Patty. 01:41:18 Speaker 4: Yeah, Rand, I wish I didn't have to do this. 01:41:21 Speaker 1: But you have to here. You are. 01:41:24 Speaker 2: Right who you're rooting for now. I don't want like, don't give me some lawyer bs. Just give me, like like in your deep down heart of hearts, who you're rooting. 01:41:31 Speaker 1: For, all right, come on, Randall, who you're rooting for? Patty Krinn Patty. 01:41:45 Speaker 6: But I understand the trademark. 01:41:47 Speaker 1: Thing, dude, I totally understand it. I totallystand. I'm just saying, like for the future, I know, but at a point, you've. 01:41:53 Speaker 2: Been around so long that you just become like the cultural It's like you're you're like the cultural fabric, and there's gonna be around so long and have been like so ubiquitous and like in such a part of the American dialogue that someone would be able to not like goof on it a little bit. 01:42:14 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:42:14 Speaker 4: I always stand up for parody, you know. 01:42:18 Speaker 1: It's like you're kind of like goofing on it. 01:42:20 Speaker 2: You're goofing on a thing that's just very main Like, I don't think this is going to hurt their business. 01:42:25 Speaker 5: That's the thing is like, is Patagonia the company really gonna like take a financial hit here? 01:42:31 Speaker 1: But that's not what it's about. 01:42:32 Speaker 5: I know. But I also feel like they've demonstrated their looking out for their own trademark. 01:42:38 Speaker 2: I know they're right. I know they're right, but I'm rooting for the other person. I wouldn't do anything different if I was in their shoes. 01:42:49 Speaker 7: They probably need to punt and just make Patty like a spokesperson. 01:42:53 Speaker 1: Because what they've done. Because what they've done. 01:42:56 Speaker 2: Now, that's why in my notes I have up top puts them in a real by which I mean a real pickle. And part of the pickle is that this went from being, Oh, I went to look and see if I could get some, not that I want some, just see if I could get Patty going your merch. 01:43:11 Speaker 1: Guess what sold out? Do you know what I'm saying. 01:43:15 Speaker 2: It's like one of those deals where careful what you talk about. 01:43:20 Speaker 1: Yeah, careful what you talk. 01:43:21 Speaker 2: About, because they all of a sudden, I've never heard of this thing that like, I've never heard of the brand Pattygonia or the individual Pattygonia, and now. 01:43:33 Speaker 1: Streisand the whole world knows about it. 01:43:35 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you got to be a little bit careful of what you yappen about. 01:43:38 Speaker 4: And my understanding was that they had somewhat of a friendly relationship until. 01:43:45 Speaker 2: I know it was like it was very loosey goosey, and this lawyer I was looking at was dismissive. 01:43:50 Speaker 1: It was something to do with like hydroflask. 01:43:52 Speaker 4: And yeah, I'll admit I didn't dig into this one as deeply as I would if I were doing a. 01:43:58 Speaker 7: Real hard hitting Can we get Patty on the show? Investigation asked Patty some of these questions. 01:44:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, we should have Patty go on, you come on the show. She meant to go by a different name while she's here. Depending on how the lawsuit. 01:44:11 Speaker 1: We had avonchard on before, we should have U Paddy like fair and balanced. 01:44:17 Speaker 3: Should have them all together a debate. I guess he's not involve. 01:44:21 Speaker 7: That'd be an ambush set ambushed he didn't tell depends if we're hiding. 01:44:28 Speaker 2: I wish that it was a long time ago and we could have done our story about north Face and South. 01:44:34 Speaker 1: But that's flat out funny. This is different. 01:44:39 Speaker 2: The thing that impressed me the most is when I went and watched Patty's video explaining the whole situation. I was impressed by the clarity and articulation of the issue. 01:44:53 Speaker 1: I was impressed. I was oppressed as a presenter. I was impressed, Like speaking of trademarks. How do we do the Bambi thing without getting in trouble? 01:45:04 Speaker 2: Because because because certain things after seventy five years ago public. 01:45:09 Speaker 7: I didn't know if that, like Mickey Mouse, I feel like, came up in public domain. 01:45:12 Speaker 3: There's a little bit of there's a roll of dice, the steamboat Willie version of Nick. Yeah. 01:45:18 Speaker 2: When we did our Bamby, we did our Bambi shirt, and I think that it had gone public Sometimes you roll the dice. Yes, we did a we did a Metallica thing. Did the lawyers warned us against? We did a guns and roses thing? The lawyers warned us against. Bambi is I think Bambie is now public domain. We did an Elmer Fudd. Maybe we rolled the dice on that. Maybe we'll get like a get yelled at by Disney. I don't know who owns Brothers. Seems like he'd be his own man, don't it. 01:45:49 Speaker 1: Yeah, Elmer Fudd, I'll never sell out. 01:45:53 Speaker 4: He's catching he's catching tiger trout in West Virginia. 01:45:58 Speaker 1: It's like, you'll never buy me, you know, ask all these people anyhow. 01:46:04 Speaker 2: All right, thanks for joining the News Show. 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