00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening to podcast, you can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. All right, everybody joined the day by by your honest We tell us I haven't seen someone in my heart aches, you haven't seen me so long. You introduced me like a guest. The hell where you been? Dude? We went? It was very abrupt. I was thinking about that the other day. We hunt used to hang out every day like brothers, like nuts on a dog. Then something changed. They were like, ah, you gotta do your and show Yohanny. And the next thing you know, it's been months, nearly a phone call. I don't even know where he's at. I feel like I do more to keep in touch, though, because remember, like I asked, if you want to come get some fish and stuff like that, Yeah, you can steal fish out of the freezer here, did you mystery? Well, listen, we're bringing in Uh, we haven't found him yet, but we're we got some hot leads. On we're bringing into polygraph Examiner, and you're the first guy getting polygraph Chester. There's a literal bounty posted for this. We're going to bring in a polygraph and I'm gonna start peeling people in here, and we're gonna have a guy right on air polygraphing people. I can tell you this much. You start out with some softballs. You're like where you from? Chester, because it sets like a little baseline right, and then you get into the stuff like, so did you put the freezer the where's the cooler? Chester? I don't I don't know where the cooler is. It could be that one sitting right that was empty sitting in there. We're gonna get to it. It's so bad for the person that accidentally took that film accidentally. I got another way. I'm gonna trick people into festing up too, because there was some baracouta in there. What had my baracouter? I froze the whole baracouter to experiment with it. That you told me to keep the barracouta in my freezer first spencer, so we didn't lose the baracout No glad to pursue that Glad, I didn't pursue that line of investigation. We'll find out. I got my eyes on your chester because the polygraph examiner is gonna probably want to talk to you, and we're gonna talk to him about how to lead an investigation. We're probably gonna try to bring in someone who deals with sex crimes. But what do you think? What do you think I did? What would you think? Like? I don't eat fish, so why would I take it? Because if if we were conducting, if we if we brought detectives in, they'd probably first talk to you. I'm just guessing us that's Paul Lewis. W'd be like, he's just space Cannady has idea what happened before we get into our main He's not actually our main guest. Oh you were hunting up in Alaska. We didn't talk about that yet. No, Yeah, with Jordan Bud we're hunting cariboo. It was fun. It was great fun bears. We saw one sal with a couple of cubs, same thing like we saw last time, like super blonde, like mega fuzzy. You know, even at two miles you can see the sALS, you know for blowing in the wind and the cubs had they been by themselves. You just said, oh, there's two small black bears. Huh, yeah, I remember we saw that when we're on that sheet punk and uh yeah, one wolf try to buy a camp, but maybe hundred fifty yards and uh, but we do an alder you pulled and fling one out there on them. No, we just had our bows and arrows. We had a rifle. Maybe we would have. But it was good until we had two good days of cariboo action. And then the cariboo faucet got turned off. The turn left right or something them. Yeah, do you think you were at the end of the herd swung different directions that early. I learned a lot about caribou movement because we actually got to talk to the local biologists right before we flew out. He stopped by it and chit chatted, and uh that early there is no real migration. And in general, that forty mile herd doesn't have like I always thought it was a very uh sort I guess, like a linear east to west movement. It's not. It's a circular movement that sometimes goes counterclockwise, sometimes goes clockwise, and they happen to go into Canada and back into the Alaska, you know, as they do this movement, but the earlier in the season, the more spread out they are, and the more they're just smaller groups and just going other different directions. And you've always I've always heard how erratic caribou can be, and we've kind of seen erratic movement on the hunts that we've been on together. But I mean, this was seriously like watching them and we didn't have any bugs. I'll preface it with that, like super cold night the for night we got there, and so really no bugs the entire week, so it wasn't bugs. But you'd just be watching a caribou just moving let's say straight east, hypothetically, stops and feeds for ten fifteen minutes, picks up his head, turns nine degrees, and sprints two yards. He's not getting bugs on him, no, and then stops and feeds a little bit, and maybe he stops for thirty seconds and pulls the shame ship again, or he stops for anyone that I always thought it like he's just getting clear of his flies. I mean, just like maddening to the point where you're like, well, we're gonna put a stock on that one. Let's go two hundred yards towards like behind it, because the thing might just turn around and run towards us. Like we like, it was very hard to pick him off or to get ahead of him. Yeah, they were just like that might be a defense mechanism, I pointed Alaska. The last two years I saw the same thing. They might stop in and feed or just stand still for a couple of minutes and then just pick up and run and and the bucks weren't bad, So I thought so too, mate. Maybe they know like I can't stay still too long. Yeah, that definitely could be ye that That was the voice of Bill vander Hayden from Iron Will Broadheads, who Kran pointed out here. Uh he was. He graduated number one out of one thousand, two d and thirty two students at the University of Wisconsin mechanical Engineering. He's gonna talking about Broadhead. He's gonna shuck the corn on Broadheads. It's gonna drop some science on it. He's gonna drop some science on us. And there's gonna there's there's there's Broadhead controversy too. I don't know if people are aware of that. We're gonna get into because we're gonna talk about what happens when you shoot sharp stuff at animals, um and and what goes on there and and and how your success in your failure can come down to what equipment you use and not just where you put it, but what happens once you put it there. Um. Oh, real quick too, we got someone waiting on the line. We have the Angler of the Year waiting on the line. We're not talking about Wally, We're talking about the real anger of the year. Yeah. You know, I was trying to think of like like because because this whole thing, like I don't want to be demeaning, but I was thinking like like bass fishing, No, I don't, like I would I would rather have one wall than ten lar. I grew up in a large mouth lake which I want to fish with Brandon who's on the phone. But I have one wall than ten bass. So I don't mean this as like I'm not this isn't a dig, but the bass anger of the Year, that's like the NBA. Yeah, when the wall Angle of the years like the w n B A like meaning like it just has a lot less awareness, like a lot less awareness. Is that fair? I don't know about the w n b A. It might even be like a lot less awareness, might be like college lacrosse. I was listening to listen. I was listening. Okay, here's the thing. I was listening to Bill Burr's new special. Let let's watch him walk this back. I only thought of this because I was watching and Bill. I was watching Bill Burr's new special, and Bill ber is talking about, uh, these conversations, these endless conversations about the w n b A. What he likes to do is he likes to go to his friends who are women, and say, oh, oh, name me your top your your favorite five w NBA players, And he finds that no one can name the people that are like like, oh, you can't name one? Yeah, So that was that was That was his point. I think everybody can name one with the one now that's in the Russian for having like some for having a little bit anyhow, Oh, Chester Chester is in way over his waiters, What do you mean Chester is going? Chester is opening announcement. You people have our tickets on sale. Yet if you get Chester, it used to be if you wanted to see If I wanted to see Chester, I used to just call him up. I gotta go to ticket Master ticket Master if you want to pay eight dollar service charge. I gotta go to Ticketmaster to see Chester because Chester is opening for Trampled by Turtles in Atlanta. Chester is traveling to Atlanta and opening. If you want to see him, take it up with Ticketmaster. It's gonna be great. Or I can tell you where he lives. I'm even I'm trying to write some some catchy originals to Chester went from being he didn't pick up a guitar? How many years ago, like a little over two years now, dude is skipping in line, skipping in line. Dave thought he had town. Does he tell us a little bit about what your plan is. I'm gonna show. I'm gonna play for to You're going to write original so you're mostly gonna sing covers. I'm gonna sing some covers, Yeah, mostly covers, and then if I feel that my originals are up to par and not too cheesy, I'll play a couple of them. What I found is the Chester right now has about forty five career advisors. Everything. Everyone's like, here's what I do Chester from crypto me who's never been able to play an instrument or sing I'm like, here's here's the lineup, should be Chester. So now we got to figure that out. You play, I think his stage name and everything, like you know, you get like like it should be like Madonna, but it should just be Chester. I thought about it. I thought it should be Chester the Molester, but that sets like then you're gonna get weird people in the cross They're like, where's the part about molesting? I want my money bag? And I think it should just be that he plays as Chester. That's what I told him to put on the poster. I really like your originals. Man, how long? How many? How long are you? How many songs? How long are you to play? It'll probably be like eight, nine, ten songs, which will be like five minutes minutes. Because Chess were speeding through this career so fast. It's like it's like six months from now, he's gonna be He's gonna hotel six months I'll put I'll put I'll put the link to tickets up on my Instagram so you can go buy some in Atlanta, Georgia And uh yeah, what's the date? December one? How many people you playing in front of? I think it's like I wonder if I can make it down there December one. We gotta do a thing. You gotta do a thing exactly you ask. We'll go to like gun show the store and be like, I need a bunch of rotten tomatoes and ship. Do you feel like opening up for the meteor podcasts and billings? Is that all you needed to kind of breakthrough? Yes? That was way harder I think than this will be, because people will be in the crowd actually talking and like there to listen to music. The billing show was like here Chester go on stage. Everyone will be quiet, they'll be confused, will be slightly confused, and there'll be a light on you, just shining right on you. And then you've got to sing a song. Yeah, and they're like, what happened? I had the wrong event? The audience They're like, did he forget a verse? Anyways, I'm Tea. I'm super proud of you, man, Well, thank you, thank you. I don't mean you're I don't mean you're in over your waiters. I just mean you're like on a fast track. Dude, I'm not in over my waiters because I can. I just need to play like I'm sitting on my couch maybe with a little more enthusiasm, but you know, just play music. That was some of the best advice I ever got as a writer. Try to image yourself telling. Try to imagine the best version of yourself telling your friend in a bar or something, the best explanation you ever gave to your friend in a bar about something. Yeah, that's good. Try to like write like that. I can do it. How did TBT find you? Um? He real He follows me on Instagram and Karen Um they're in contact just because he's been on the podcast before and she gave him my number and he text me and Danielle was sitting right there and I was like, this is a weird text. And because I just I just to weight it to both of them. Yeah, I read it out loud, and as I was reading it, Danielle was like in the background, like jumping up and down. She's like, you have to do it. Even though it's like eight days after we have our firstborn son. Your wife's into it. Yeah, she's like, yeah, She's like you you don't. People don't really get opportunities like that in the spot that you're at. Mm hmm. So you gotta do it, Danielle, don't give birth late, you're gonna be completely sleep deprived and hallucinating on stage. Man groupies, he'd be beating him off with his fish pole. But I want to talk about bass fishing with Brandon. Oh that's we're getting. We have on the phone now. Chester told me last night that, Um, Brandon, Uh, tell everybody where you're at what's going on? That the Brandon polluted I was best politic. Brandon Polinck, who you should know because he's been on the show before. Uh, last night was christened crowned Anger of the Year. My on, you're you're right. It's a true story Acrosse, Wisconsin, and you explained it perfectly. I mean, I remember last time I was in studio, we were kind of having to explain the whole tournament bass fishing thing to you, and then you just you put Chester straight and nailed it. With the end of the w n B A comparison. Then you were you were dead nuts on with that one. So so tell me, like, what what is this the culmination of it? What does it mean for your career? Um? Well, this this is my second a O I win. So it puts me in a very small group of guys that have won multiple Uh, I was the twelfth guy to win multiple a wise, and I think the twenty seventh guy to ever win one. Yeah, and like the fifty plus years of bass So they're looking at when they do this, they're looking at the culmination of a of a collection of tournaments, right, Like, it doesn't mean one particular tournament. This means that, like over the entire tour or have you guys put it, that you were above and beyond had the best angler performance out of all the anglers engaged in all the different tournaments. Yeah, exactly. So it's a points race. So we have a hundred anglers that qualify for the Bass Master Lead Series. All those same hundred guys fish throughout the entire year. First place gets a hundred points, second gets, third gets and so forth, and you know, down the board. And so there's an accumulative points race that carries on through the nine events of the year. And we just finished well today, the top ten is actually still fishing today. I just didn't make the top ten, but I had I placed high enough yesterday that nobody could pass me in points today. How many points you got, Honestly, I don't even know. I haven't looked at points in eight years until the end of the year, but I haven't even looked at the points of this year to know how many points I have? Is there a cash prize? Ran Brandon? You that's awesome, man. I had been following you all year, and you know you're doing really well, and you went to Lake Wahi and struggled a little bit. There a bond you can You're putting it way too nice. Chester. You need to go more Chester molester on this one. Yeah, I about screwed up my whole entire season. So walk us, walk us through like real quick, like what was been going into y he? Then a while he and then what was in your mind going into lacrosse? Uh? Soon? Looking back now and after everyone telling me like how the points played out and stuff, Because I hadn't looked all season, I didn't know what the points gap was. I knew that there were a couple of guys behind me that we're in the running. But I was leading going into Hawaii, and knowing what I know now, I was running away with it at that time. Like if I would have just cut a check, it would have been nearly impossible for someone to beat me. This week whether I kind of bass or not. And I completely bombed and finished like sixty six that a wahi, and before that, my worst finish of the season had been twenty six. And so it went from being almost nearly impossible to getting getting beat for a y two, making it so that multiple guys had a shot to win it. And you know, a lot of that just came from poor decision making at a wali, right, like riding off sections of the lake and preconceived notions and things like that, Oh yeah, I'm crushed the walleye, like walley one. Walleye is worth way more than ten large mouth if you're talking about eating them, sure, and way better um, And that I mean incredible walleye fishery, and it's actually a really good small mouth fishery. We just hit it at a really weird time and I made poor decisions. And then I came into lacrosse this week still not knowing the points, but knowing that it was a lot closer by the way everyone was acting. It was a lot closer than what it needed to be, and was able to to pull it out and actually had an incredible day yesterday. Um caught the biggest bag that I caught all week and I was able to seal the deal. Move up and how many how many pounds was yesterday's bag? That's five? How many fishes at five fish? Five? Yeah? Five? So I had fifteen pounds for five yesterday, which on this river right now is pretty dank solid. Like if I would have caught fifteen every day, I would have nearly been leading the event. Dude, I'm gonna go bass fishing with you, so bad man, let's go seeweed taste and bastards. I'm ready. Um uh imagine the tax at hunter Grand pretty aggressively. I'm guessing they're gonna some chump who never paid his student loans and here here, yeah, here's the best part. Wisconsin is a state that they have to pull the taxes out of your check before you even get it. And then so now I'm only getting four grand because Wisconsin is gonna take six and then I gotta go do all the paperwork to try to get some of it back. I don't live you, Yeah, yeah, sometimes you wish you could just go fishing to have to deal with all that money and it. Trust me, I know that's why I go walleye fishing. So you're so you're not even fishing now, but you're still hanging around. Is that? Is that like a polite thing to do is hang around. I actually started doing that like two years ago, and I'm sticking around watching each guy win the event because it to me, it's like a respect thing to the other anglers and somewhat, but it's also a driving force to me, like personally to see a guy win, knowing that like I had equal opportunity to go do that and I couldn't pull it off, Like I didn't make the right decisions that week, and so it's it just motivates me even more for the next week, the week after that, Yeah, I got it. And are you done for the summer now? Oh? Yeah, it's we're switching. I will still fish some in the fall and everything that keep my skills in check, but it's full on hunting season now. And then when you when you got to start back up hardcore fishing again. We'll start tournaments again next February. We'll start showing season and all that stuff traveling in January, but February. We don't have our schedule yet for next year, but it usually it starts around February. Uh, can you can you take a listener question for us? For sure? Guy rolled in um wondering about what happens when you spook a fish. He's talking about how long, like if you like spook a deer, how long it goes before it kind of goes back to normal, right, like how far it was? You know, it's highly variable, right, but you're saying, let's fish and like really fight it and he comes off not not as he stung his lip, but like you had him on. You know, yeah, when does that fishing? When does that fish like back to normal ready to hit again. It's all situational, um, and it's different depending on species. So like a small mouth bass versus a large mouth will be way more aggressive. Like, so your odds of hooking and losing a small mouth and catching it again quickly is much higher than doing it with a large mouth just because they got a bad attitude. So you've you've probably hooked small mouth, broke off and like potentially caught the small mouth with your with your lure still in the mouth, especially if they're spawning. Right if they're spawning, like when they seeing or can't see any cast, break wing off your cast back in there, swims over, eats it, and you get both your hooks back, and that's like breaking him off. Yeah, that's like you catch him. He still has the lure stuck in his mouth. He cast back out there, he swims over, eats the next one and get to like I caught I caught a small off one time on Lake Oneida. And when I caught him brought him in the boat, he regurgitated a bait that he had just stole off my the cast before, right like it just sucked the worm off the hook, and that was a plastic worm, not even real one. He spit up another plastic worm, like a little four inch black sinco, a shad and a crowdad all at the same time, and was still swimming around eating my baits. And but there's been times where like you don't hook them, and I'll follow him sometimes for a quarter mile, like if they get on a sand flat or something, you have just follow him and you'll keep casting at I'm keep casting out him. They'll spook from the boat a little, or they'll spook from your cast and then you'll hit it just right, or they get annoyed enough and they'll swim over and buy it got it. I know it's a hard, hard question to answer because it's like so like what everything is so highly variable? Right, Yeah, for sure, we'll Congratulations man, thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, you gotta come back on the show. Yeah, I would love to. We're gonna make it's not too far a drive, so we'll make Cret We'll make Creant chase you down and get you back up here. It'd be fun. Yeah. They still gotta fish your mos pond. We still gotta fish my moms like my mom's. Yeah, your breakdowns, Like we talked about that a little bit. We'll do it that lake. It's not going anywhere. Um, this last summer what turned out to not be a good summer for a handful of reasons. But uh, but we'll get back on track for that. Alright. Congratulations, thanks for jumping on. Yeah, I appreciate you. Guys. I'll talk to you seon alright, take good luck Alt County. All right, thanks. Oh guy wrote in, uh, interesting point. We're talking about leading copper. We're talking about when you go to the kind of this ongoing debate about you know, lead ammo, copper ammo, all these different pros and cons of each. Um uh, we're talking about how like, like I we did a tour of the Federal plant, Federal Ammunition Plant, and all the lead Federal uses is recycled car batteries. It's all recycled lead, okay, and someone rolled in and he's like, the problem with you people like you is you say, like, oh, copper, copper, copper, but then every time they go to put in a copper mind you bitch about it. For instance, I've been a long you know I've been I've spent well, I've went to my first anti pebble mine event before my twelve year old was born. So I've been following in in and voicing all the reasons they shouldn't do a golden copper mine at the headwaters of Bristol Bay for thirteen years, fourteen years. But he's like, so, how can you reconcile that was saying you'd like to shoot copper ammo, or that people should shoot copper ammo. Uh. I felt that he a little bit oversimplified what I've said on the subject. However, um fella road in to say that most at copper and your copper animals recycled. Anyways, thousands of tons of copper. This is him talking. Thousands of tons of coppered are recycled off job sites every year. What most people don't know is it can only be refined once to use as a conductor. I did not know this copper can be used once as a conductor. Once it's melted down again, it's conductive properties are diminished and it cannot be used again as wire. So most likely the copper that you're using, which doesn't need to be conductive copper and copper ammunitions. It would make the most sense that they're buying it up cheaper as a recycled material, then going out and digging it out of a hole in the ground. Thinking about that bill. That probably tickles your fancy as an engineer. You buying it? Um, I did not know that about conduction of copper after reuse recycled, But that sounds good more. You're more of a broadhead man, you're not a bullet man. Yeah, I'm meant to steal more than copper. Yeah, for sure. Uh that was interesting. Oh here's one. This is a weird one. This dude from Michigan rights in is his girlfriends and taking her hunter safety and they're actually advising you. They're advising you and hunter safety. Quote when transporting game, be sure to keep it covered to avoid offending others. That's not like a hunter's safety. That's a that's a sticky one. Isn't that illegal? Some places to hide it? Well, don't you have to have exposed? I don't know, but I'm gonna say no. I think when I was a kid in Wisconsin that you had to have your deer where you could see it, like what I think, so people had them tied onto their cars and visible in there. They wanted to know that you had it. You couldn't. I think once you got it registered, you had to drive the talent register it. And I think that was the rule that you had to have it like displayed or visible until he was a registered that's you know, I was. I don't know if I knew the law is exactly back then, but that's that And maybe people were just showing off their bucks. I don't know. Well, it was like a big thing in the old days, like whenever he was driving around and like old cars they have like strung up on there. But where it gets like you know, is it um how to what degree? Like if you get a deer. Let's just purely personal decision making here. Let's say there's no legal okay, there's no legal structure behind if you get a deer, should you have the attitude that you've done something bad and should hide it lest someone be offended? Or is it that you've done something that you're happy about and glad about and don't mind displaying it. I see, I see both sides of it. I've argued both sides of it. Yeah, in Wisconsin, it's like a huge thing. If you shoot a nice dear, it's rare you find that dude hiding that buck, like tailgates down and he stops at like all the deer registration stations and a few bars, and he's like, look at my buck. You know. Yeah, I don't uh like I have a top around my truck, and I would never like do, but not for not for fear of offending people, just more of like, you know, I don't know, just this is where I would put it, I guess. So it's not like a decision for me. Well, this fall, you're gonna shoot such a big bull, he's not gonna fit in that bed of yours. You're gonna have to attach him to the canoe racks. Good, I got aloft the top of though ain't gonna fit. Here's another one. This guy's one or no that The topic is am I the ask? This is a this is a this is a sticky one. So noo. A guy from Michigan. How do people from Michigan right now? A lot of problems in Michigan. He's from Michigan, and he's been doing some scouting just right now. Okay, He's been cruising the road surrounding the properties where he has permission to hunt. So he's got permission to hunt certain properties in his area. He's cruising around in the evening, glassing out in crop fields. One such property is about three acres of mixed egg and small woodlots. The way the crops lay out this year. The neighbor's property have some soybeans that the bachelor groups of bucks have been hitting hard. Two nights this week, I partner my truck on private property I have permission on and have been glassing the deer in a neighbor's soybeans each night. I'm still quoting here. Each night the neighbor confronted me and asked me about what I was doing. The first night was more cordial, and he just inquired about who I was and what I was up to. The second evening he was straight up confrontational and threatened me with calling the d n R and complaining about hunter harassment. M he's kind of turning the hunter harassment on the hunter on the bow hunter. It's like he's confused, he needs to look up harrassment. So no, I think that his angle is that this dude is somehow trying to disrupt his upcoming hunt. Okay, I'll continue. He says, my long distant glassing is going to pressure the deer and ruin his hunting this fall. He also went into and here's some value judgment, because he says, he went into an egotistical rant about how he and his bodies only shoot one bucks and how the guys who hunt my pro he should be doing the same. So again he points out, I'm set up on a private property where a farm lane intersects the dirt road. I'm sitting on the tailgate in my truck, and I'm glassing across a roadway into a bean field where the deer are five hundred two thousand yards away. No houses, no other dwellings or structures are visible from my spot due to topography and vegetation. Therefore, it shouldn't be misconstrued that I'm stalking or looking at people's houses. The dirt road is relatively busy, many people drive it with cars side by sides and dirt bikes, so he's not adding to the activity. M hm, Okay, if you are absolutely one dead nuts positive sure that you're not sort of like kind of like glancing over at the guy's house with with binoculars. I just can't see what the issue is. I don't think there is one man. I think this is just like classic sort of white tail hunter paranoia. What what it really seems to me this is Hayden samic ladies and gentle. It really seems to me that this guy's main problem is that he doesn't have like a hedgerow or something right off the road. A lot of times, like white Dale hunters with these highly managed properties, they're like, I forget what the grass is called. But yeah, like Mark, I think Mark Kenyon did it with the back forty. Is he planned that he tried or he tried to plant like a screen that kind of intersected or blocked the view from the road specifically for this purpose. I would also say that if this guy came out here, had the conversation with this dude and those deer, we're still standing in the middle of the field. It's probably not an issue, you know. It just it seems like this dude is just weirdly protective about his deer. But Northeast Deer Hunting King's deer issue is what it is. Yeah, it sounds like the guy who was upset also could have handled that confrontation a little better if he was actually that worried, rather than just straight up calling the d n R. And which is kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It's just I don't know. You can imagine if the cop did come and they both guys laid out their argument, the cop would probably feel like the guy that owns the field is insane. Yeah, right, he's like homent um. What you're upset about. You're mad that he's on his property looking over into your property looking at deer. This is gonna be very hard to enforce. Look for all the motors coming down this road that they don't look, they don't look over that a way. Yeah, and our listener Brian is being so thoughtful to even you know self reflecting right in and ask what what some of you might think. So it sounds to me, Brian, that you're not an ass. But here's the thing to keep mind. Here's the thing to keep in mind too. This is my Like you can't take marriage, for instance, there are things that your anniversary today, oh for you gradulation, take marriage for instance. It might be that there's something that drives your spouse nuts and you're like, I still see, like why do you care? Right? But then just you just stop doing it because right you stop doing it, like you don't see what the issue is, but you just stop doing it because it annoys them. So it could be that in the spirit of just trying to keep things, Cord will not keep things heated. The he just dips into the woods and then sits against a tree and looks over into the soybean field or whatever. Right, Like, like, maybe the guys irrational, but do you want to have is that the relationship you want to have with everybody? Like he's un irrational, Perhaps you're not gonna fix it, but do you want to like poke the bear all the time? Yeah, And Brian's is obviously. You know these bucks come once they start getting frisky and running around thousand yards away. He's just getting a feel for what kind of deer are in the area. You know, they could easily beyond his property come runt time. So, Kendra, you know we're talking about I was talking about a friend of mine on a recent episode. Uh, I should say, a friend of an acquaintance of mine that got hit by a rattlesnake and they took him to his local hospital and they didn't have the anti venom, so he had to get in a helicopter and go to a hospital that had the anti venom, and they charged him nine thousand bucks for the helicopter ride. Well, listen to this. Steve Kendraw, who's been on the show. He's on a bird hunting some bird hunting for him, and the guy, a guy on a bird hunting for him, had this to say. My mother was bitten by a copper head in June. She received the hospital bill in today's mail and the anti venom cost one hundred and nineteen thousand dollars and nine one hundred nineteen thousand, nine hundred nine seven dollars. Oh my gosh, she was bitten in the hand, and she told me I sucked the venom out and spit it out, then drove herself to the hospital and to back himself up. He the receipt is in here, like Kendrot sent me the receipt. It's like YadA YadA YadA. Um. Room and board at the hospital fifty dollars, the lab costs six thirteen, has some kind of diagnostics something or another three fifty six bucks. Her emergency room visit three thousand one bucks. The pharmacy bill for the anti venom one nine. Did insurance cover it? He says, she's got good insurance. I'll point out that the Stafford host Bittle has a two point seven uh star rating on Google Reviews. Yeah, but I don't think people like like, yeah, I guess now, and then you leave a hospital like loving the place. Well, the other Stafford hospital I can find is actually in England, and the Wikipedia page is called the Stafford Hospital scandal. Yeah, if that's this not high marks, but this just happening yesterday, But no, this is this is here in the good old America. And then they got copper heads in England. So my dog has been bit by rattlesnake three times now, same dog, and it costs like to get the anti venom at the vet, so she should have went to the vet. Well, but that's the copper head venom might be totally different. That's an unlucky dog. You think it'd be snake team by now. Yeah, she was bit when she was four months old. I didn't think she's gonna make at that time, but she did. She went on to be a great hunting dog, and then twice last summer, but the second time she didn't. She didn't react to it, so they thought maybe she's kind of immune to it. At this point, where is this happening Not in eastern Colorado on Nebraska Colorado border area. Another guy wrote in remember how we covered that guy that fell in the vault on the house and spent all those hours his phone he was he was, I don't know what he's doing. Presumably he was defecating and his phone fell into an house vault at a fishing access site in Montana. And you were insistent he would be a tremendous guest on the podcast. So I wanted to get him a show to interview him. And I said, like, I just asked him, what are you thinking when you stuck down in at our house vault? And a guy wrote me inside, I can tell you what he wasn't thinking. Where's the guys supposed to take a piss around here? But doom boom, but don't bump all right? Bill Born and raising Wisconi. Where at central it says, Montella, Wisconsin, kind of central part of the state, about hour north of Madison. Grew up bow hunting? I did, yep. My father grandfather were bow hunters. So um, I grew up bow hunting and rifle hunting. You can you can do both there. You don't have to just choose one or the other like you do in Minnesota or some other states. How old are you? So set the scene for me. What was going on like when you were twelve or whatever? Well? Where was the archery equipment? I started with a recurve um. You know you were hearing whispers of the compound both I saw compounds. I uh. It took me two years to save up the money to buy one and start start killing deer. But I started with a recurve um. That's what my my dad grandfather had used. This was Ben Pearson. It was it was, oh, that was all My first bows were Ben Pierson bows. Hold on fiber shafts or you mean to say limbs, no on his arrows aluminum or it was like, no, it's like the big thing they have fiberglass arrows, wasn't it. I had some kind of composite arrows, but mainly I shot aluminum arrows. Wasn't there for a time people I know, like car barrels and ship It wasn't like in the early days people were messing with fiberglass. Yeah, because remember people getting those fiberglass they'd go to pull them fiberglass ship in her hands all the time. It looks like you can still buy them from three rivers. So anyways, aluminium anyway, iluminum and what what were you guys? Broadheads back then thunderheads, raise your back fives all that stuff, man, and then some Muzzy's price soon after that. Um, a lot of a lot of three blade shows point type heads. Um, but not like so you're not like, uh like those old delta like the steel ones and stuff with I think I had some of those from my from my dad grandfather, some of the razor heads and things. Um. And that's probably is what I started with. But when I started, yeah, I think I was twelve when I started. I think I was four team when I bought my first compound and then started shooting probably thunderheads at that point something like that. Were you when you were doing that as a kid? Were you, um? Were you like mechanically minded at the time? Were you just use what people told you to use? Were did you? Were you early on thinking like, man, this would be a lot better if it was blank. Actually I was just using what people told me to use for quite a few years. Even even as I became a mechanical engineer, I wasn't really applying it to broadheads and our treat that much. I mean, I understood the fundamentals, but I wasn't really serious about applying it to bow hunting, you know, until actually until I had a broadhead fail on an elk shoulder blade many years later, that I really decided, Hey, I need to apply to my background and science mechanical engineering to develop a product that's going to perform better here. What was what were you interested in a mechanical engineering like, why did you become an engineer? Yeah? I was, you know, physics, mathematics were just kind of cam natural to me, and I was I was interested in mechanical designing mechanical design and applying applying science to solve problems make better products. Um, I mean I enjoyed archery and with the compound because there was a lot of you know, mechanical engineering going on there. I just wasn't I don't feel like I was applying it to errow errow flight broadheads and things like that to the degree I I am now certainly how long you've been at it now, um, about sixteen years now, really engineering broadheads. Yeah, I'm gonna turn it over to honest for a minute. All right, you're honest. Explained to me. Explain to me what is like like based on your understanding as a guy that likes to read abo stuff like this, what is the arrow? What is the arrow? The current like arrow broadhead controversy. I don't know if there's a answer, no, because there's so many schools of a little nuance schools of thought. In the last couple of years, it's been trending more foc forward of center, like yeah, there's that, there's the idea that heavier arrows are sort of gaining a little bit of momentum, I said, I say that, but I also wonder if it's not just because of our little circle. Like I wonder if you go to actually I don't go to a t A. But if I wonder if you went to a t A. Do you go to a t A? Is it like a talk? Is it a thing there? Like? Is also is there like a general surge in the definitely speed controversy and O and it it continues. I think it's just bad right now as it's ever been speed, But it wasn't around and like the probably like in oh five when the first super fast carbon you know shafts came along and everybody was shooting like eighty five grain heads and everybody showed up in camp. Where I come from. My perspective is that I started guiding el cuents in the year two thousand and everybody, for whatever reason, it was like the very tail end of still had aluminum shafts and like muzzies like what everybody rolled into camp with, and everybody just passed shot right through elk. We had like very good success with you know shots taken to you know, animals found. And then five years later guy would show up with rigs where like they'd shoot the target at forty yards and you didn't even see the arrow. It would just be like stuck in the target all of a sudden, and you know, seriously, it's like one of those where the guys like throwing the knives and the knife just comes out of the board. M And then we started seeing you know, very poor penetration. Um. It took us a long time and probably well after I probably left you know, guiding l cons to realize, you know, that that was the root cause of it, that the whole system had gotten too light because they liked like people liked it because it was fun as ship to shoot it. Yeah, and I think it was flat. It was like flat, it was fun to shoot at targets, flat shooting fast ass arrows. And I think at the time, yeah, the the it was it's sold. Probably was the number one thing was that it was like new. They came up with this the capability to make arrows go really fast, and it was like the hot new thing. But I don't it hadn't been like tested and it probably worked fine on you know white tails and stuff, but it just hadn't been proven yet. And it took five or ten years. So I guess my question is do you feel like back then was there a controversy or people talking like was there always like a whole backgrowd that was like none, No, no, you guys are I'm telling you that light fast stuff is not gonna work. You guys should be sticking with heavier arrows. I don't. I don't think there was so much. You know, I moved to Colorado from Wisconsin started elk hunting um two thousand four is when? So we started elk cutting bout the same time. Yeah, it's two thousand before I got a shot on a on a nice ball. How are you doing for the five years before you got a shot trying to figure out elk cunting what I was doing? Yeah, come on, you don't have a similar story. I know you did. I started winging the arrows that coles right off the bat. I was losing more than more than one or two as well. But yeah, we can get into that. I was a successful white tail hunter, and everything I knew about white tails was I was steering me in the wrong direction for elk and I didn't have a lot of you know, mentorship. I just went out and tried to figure it out. But UM, so I got this shot on a on an elk, hit a little forward, hit the shoulder blade really really pretty thin part of the scapula with a three blade UM you know, cheap chisel point head and did not get penetration there. And and I was I had a light fast set up at the time, you know, probably a little over finder grains UM with a bow I had. It wasn't There was not a lot of energy there. And that's really what set me off on Okay, and I spent five days looking for that out in the mountains and um didn't find it. But I got a lot of time to think he had been pretty he'd been puffed up pretty good. But yeah, I think it probably pulled out and live. But yeah, it really bothered me that I had become a very you know, high level engineer developing products using all the latest and greatest tools UM to do world class you know engineering solved mechanical problems product development. Really it was kind of the go to guy at the companies I worked for to solve the hardest problems. And I wasn't applying it to something that was super important to me, which is bow hunting success. Um. And right there I kind of was committed, I'm gonna I'm gonna research this, see what's been done, apply engineering. I know something can get through the shoulder blade and get through that elk. I just need there needs to be some engineering here. Um. But not at the time, everything was moving light and fast. I was too, and I didn't really hear about anybody saying anything different. Um. It was really after I had that failure I started digging into the research. I found the Ashbury reports back then and read them. You know, went went heavy the next year, six hundred plus green arrow in a big long broad head. Um. But then I realized that, hey, this doesn't fly verygain the trajectory. This thing nos dies about forty yards. And at the same time I realized that hunting out west for elk and mule deer, man I was passing up a lot of elk and mule deer at fifty fifty five yards because it was outside of my range at that time. So I also felt like a matter if I could extend my range, I could be a much more effective hunter and make more you know, make something out of more opportunities here. So um, anyway, that that made me just dig into the science behind it and and look at masters to speed and broadhead design and all that. Real quick, uh, explain to people what a chisel head is. That's why to make sure people who aren't totally checked out on the terminology and know what you're saying. Yeah, So the the point of an arrowhead, you can have a cone point, which kind of vision what that is, or a chisel point would be if you had like three flats making the point, I call that a chisel point. There's versions of that that might be dished out and those are called choker points. But it's basically um, the front of the ferrell um makes a point. It's not really a blade, it's not really not gonna shave with it, but it comes to a point. And then those typically have some replacement blades that are inserted behind it, like the old muzzy thunderhead. There's a lot of them that were like that. So those three flat surfaces that come to a point, or like you said, you'll see on some brands where it's dished out a little bit kind of give it more of a sharp edge of the chisel point. Right, Those cut better than a calm point. For instance, they'll take less force to to push through to hide muscles, but they're not considered a cut on contact. They're really not in. Really, that's the biggest revelation I had in ten years of broadhead development is how important sharpness and retension are UM and being able to cut. You know, you could take you can take a lot of broadheads, put them on an arrow, and let's say you got a downed animal. You're just gonna try to push in and say the hide and muscle, and you can't. You can't do it. Um, there's just a points a lot of times not very sharp, and it takes a lot of force to push them through the hide. Um. Even some three blade kind of one piece broadheads. Um, often those aren't that sharp. And I didn't realize that either. A lot of broadheads aren't really that sharp out of the box. I a lot of people don't realize that. A lot of people. No, I didn't. I thought, well, it's a broadhead that's got blade on it. Of course it's going to be sharp. But sure it comes with a warning that says, watch out, you're gonna cut cut the hell out of your fingers. But yeah, it could, it can be harper I've found out. Yeah, that's one of the things UM I was doing is measuring the forced push these different broadheads down through hide muscle or hide muscle scapula using an insta machine, which is you know, I can control a velocity and very accurately as a load cell, I can accurately measure the force to penetrate. And there's a one to one there. If it's if you cut the force and half to penetrate, you're gonna go twice as far you know through Back backed that up against it again, Yeah, I wish you back all the way back up to the machine. Well, I was gonna tell them about our our meat tenderness testing machine, but I'll save them. It's probably not too That's what the first thing I thought. Yeah, so backing up to the machine again. Yes, So this machine, it has UM basically servo motors driving down ahead and there's a load cell in it so it's accurately measuring force. And then I can mount I can mount different broadheads in there, and I'll have you know, a tray underneath it with I've done it with UM, you know, a hind quarter with hide on it, for instance, to look at the force to push down through hide and muscle. Can you just stick a road kill deer on there and you can? Basically, yeah, I was light. I've used odd Dad before, which is it's kind of similar in size, maybe a little thicker bone. Um. I've used moose moose hide and moose moose parts as well. But you probably gotta be careful because at some point if you just like mess up this meat too much, you're gonna get a call from the Game of Fish right for want and waste. So, like, what's the recipe after you punch these arrows through a thousand Yeah, keep it cold and then make it into burger when you're done. Yeah, I guess burger is the answer. Um, but yeah we can. But so, just so I'm clear, it's not like somehow and maybe I'm just not understanding force clear enough. But when it's pushing through, you can equate that too. How fast that arrow had have been going when it hit. It's not just like a pressure pushing at the time. It's that can be equated to how fast that air is moving when it hit. I'm measuring the force it takes to go through and it is this a good time to get into the Yeah, it's probably a good I can see though, I can see that whatever you're talking about with whenever you're gonna go down the road later in factor in speed and all that ship that a reasonable thing to look at would be what does it actually take to shove it through there? Like that seems like a great first question to ask. Well, I think it's what everybody was missing, and I think they're still missing it today a lot. There's this mass versus speed, but that's only that's part of the equation. The other one or if we if we think about it an energy and um, yeah, let me draw this, but the force is key here. Force. Um. If you can reduce the force, you increase the distance. It's kind of one to one um. And I think everybody was missing that. But he's really looking at when you're saying. When you say that, you're talking about reducing the force to penetrate, your increasing the distance that you will get after the penetration. Um, during the penetration, during penetration, right the initial penetration. I guess like, let's say I had the sharpest needle on the planet, Okay, and I flick it at you perfect like a sharp dart and then I have a real dold dart and I flick it at you the same which you're gonna would you rather be hit you with? Yeah, obviously, because it's gonna go in really easy. Yeah. Or I think about cutting a roast. If you've got a really sharp knife, minimal force to cut down through that, right, take a butter knife. It's going to take a tremendous monet force. But I don't think a lot of people think about that. You know, for whatever energy you have, it's going to create some force over distance, and reducing that force to penetrate will give you the max distance with whatever your set up is, light or heavy air or whatever your boy is. And I think I think that's missed a lot, and it's a huge factor when you're getting there to everything around uh, broadheads, arrow setups, both setups. You're looking at a number of things you brought up a bunch of times, like there's physics, right, and we've addressed it. Where we had on that we had on a guest I don't know, some some months ago in an episode called The Archer's Paradox, where we had an ophthalmologist who spent many, many years how many years at Ashby seven years studying arrow broadhead like bow arrow broadhead performance. Okay, and he has these sort of like rules and they seem to be right, Like I would look at me like, oh, this is a very scientific approach, Like it's not anecdotal, it's not well, here's what my buddy said. He's like trying to apply numbers to it. Okay, Um, how is there how is the room for multiple interpretations if that's the case. Yeah, there's a there's a lot there. So you know, dr at Ashby, I, um, I know, I've talked to him several times. He there's a few things there. Um. And and really the reason I'm here is too explain some of the some of his points that don't quite agree with with physics and laws of science. This is how you and I became acquaintances. It is is you've sent me a follow up note about some things that want ought to consider right from an engineering standpoint. Yeah, and I thought to come onto the show and explain this. Yeah. And I've talked to dr Ashby and and really we agree about we agree on a lot of things. But um, there's a few things that he says that you know, when and really his his studies were the first thing I found in two thousand four, after I had that broadhead fail and elk shoulder blade, I was really trying to dig into the research. So, um, you know, I've got a lot of respect for the guy in the time he put in, but a lot of his his studies were um with a longbow on cape buffalo or Asian buffalo. And and he's a he's an eye doctor, but he's not an engineer or a scientist in the way his and really there's there's a way you design experiments, you know, it's design of experiments and structuring them in such a way that you make sure the results you get out of them are are valid. Um. And so as you said, uh, I felt it would probably scientific research too. But as I dig more and more into it, there was a lot of you know, I tried this and then I tried this other thing, and there's in the way it's structured, there's not Um, it's difficult, you know, when a number of things change at once, it's difficult to quantify and put numbers to things. So I think there's some issues like that, and there's some also some issues with some things that just go against you know, the laws of physics. That's that's tough. It is. You know, as a as an engineer basically and mechanical engineering is you know, I've learned the science, the physics and material science and then I apply the laws of physics to you know, solve problems, designed better products. So if if somebody is saying something that's going against the laws of physics, there's something wrong there. Um, there's something he didn't quite understand with the testing. Explain how like some of the formulas that go into what happens when you shoot your bow at something. Yeah, So let's talk about conservation of energy first. So your bow has some draw force curve. Um, So as you drop back, there's a you know, there's a force at each distance back, and then as you let go of it, that string applies that force to the arrow and you have a certain amount of energy and that's that's that force times distance or that area under that draw force curve, and that's gonna be constant for the bow. So I mean I want to ask a question about that. Yeah, I get the thing where let's say your bow you pull back and your your bow max is at eighty pounds. Okay, yeah, why does it matter how long you apply that force to the arrow? Meaning if it does it for twelve inches or does it for five yards? So it does it for twelve inches or does it for in or whatever? At a point, like, why does it matter anymore? It's moving it at that speed. Um, well, it gets to be a higher speed if it's applied longer. You know that is that infinite? Yeah? You know? So that's Newton's second law motion is force equals mass times acceleration. So as long as you're applying force here, increasing that acceleration, and it's going to keep going faster. But here's the thing, like, Okay, let's say I'm moving my phone across I'm moving my phone across the table, and I'm pushing it at X speed. So I'm using my arm to push my phone. Now, if I pushed my phone for an inch at a certain speed, right, it's gonna do whatever it does. It will slide away from my finger when I stop. If I pushed my phone at that speed for twelve inches and then stop, it's not like the phone skiters across the table a lot further. No, but you did more work. You didn't put more energy. Yeah, but the phone didn't didn't harness that energy. Well, that d when you let go of it, the fourth stops and the drag drag brings it to a stop. Understand what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, but I don't know why you don't understand why it's like not working. Let me put it this way. Let's say you're driving down the road. Okay, alright, you're driving down round your car and you're going thirty miles an If you go, if you drive your car for thirty miles an hour, for a mile, and then take your foot off, uh, the accelerator, you're gonna coast whatever distance. If you drive your car for one miles at thirty miles an hour and take your foot off the accelerator, it's not just gonna go farther. It's gonna colost the same distance. Your car doesn't give a ship how long it was pushed at some speed. Yeah. So the difference there is that once it's up, what's you're maintaining a velocity? If there's no acceleration, there's a force balance there. Um, So fource equals mass times acceleration. So it's just the acceleration so example, I would be saying, it's more like you kept your accelerator to the floor for longer, and now you're going faster, you know at the end. Oh yeah, I got So maybe I'm with you. That's a good point. So maybe when you were asking if it's infinite, maybe it's only it's not infinite because it can only once it achieves maximum acceleration. That's when it ends. Right. So that bow that we're drawing back at some point there's a max there's an end to how much it can accelerate the air. So in the case of your bow having a thirty instr length in stet of twenty, you're getting that force applied longer, and you're gonna get a higher speed out of the arrow when it comes off the bow. But it's like a constant acceleration. It's not like it's going it's a constant acceleration. It's not like it's like maxing out like at this point in your release. But there's a point when it has to become redundant, right. But I think in the context of drawing a bow, it just continues to accelerate for that like length of time. I think that's why like a lot of the target archers shoot those huge acts lax bows, and having like your draw length is like such a mechanical advantage, Like you can increase it by three inches and get like an extra twenty per second. The equation is pretty simple that that explains that just conservation of energy. It's force times distance. It's gonna be equal to one half MV squared. So you're both doing this work on the arrow, which is that force times distance, and that's gonna be equal. It's going to be converted to kinetic energy. There's some slight losses in sound and heat, but mainly that's what's happening. I don't want I don't want to be dead horse by like. I will move on understanding that I don't understand it. But here's the thing. When I say infinite, I mean what what what? What do you guys use Let's say, if you have an eighty pound like you you pulling eighty pound bow? Okay, so what what number would you use as an engineer to like describe what that pressure is or what and you got an arrow on there? Now, if some guy had a fifty inch draw length or a sixty inch draw length at some point it seems to me that that arrow is just gonna be going to speed. It's gonna go when it leaves the string, And it doesn't matter if you've if it's a sixty in straw or a thirty in straw. At some point, the arrow is gonna harness whatever it's gonna harness from that speed. No, No, I mean, here's here's the I mean, here's the equation force times distance equals one half mb squared. Okay, so if that distance increases, it will come off with a higher velocity. No, I mean, but it can never go faster than the string, can they? Well, I should ask you if you measured if you took a thing that they used to measure, like someone's fastball, and you measured the movement of the string. Well, you know you're right. I'll tell you what you're right. It's like if you took the bow. I know you're not supposed to because you'll blow your limbs up. But let's say you could shoot your bow with no arrow on it. Right, that string probably moves a hell of a lot faster than it would with an arrow on it. Does I'm ready to move on now. Now I'm with you. Now, I'm with you. And it's because that arrow was slowing that string out it is, and that's actually why you get a little more momentum out of a heavier arrow, because it's being pushed a little slower. I said, talk myself into that one. But I'm I'm my I'm on step now. Okay, yeah, good, So that at least understand that didn't at least understand my question. Yeah, I wasn't thinking about it that it's carrying the lower that arrow and it's it's like, yeah, it's going to start out slower and then just increase as the arrow gets one man. You know, whatever your draw if you can draw along, if your draw force is longer, or you have a higher force, those are both going to increase the energy going to the arrow, you know, kind of one to one and then you have you know, one half mv square is the kinetic energy of the arrow, and then at the target, that kinetic energy is going to be converted back to work on the row. So now that energy is going to apply this force times distance to penetrate you know, through the target. And and this is part of the controversy out there, if it's if the target is safe foam that has a constant force to push through, and it's not velocity dependent, it's um. So for a given bow, it's kind of a constant energy machine or constant kinetic energy machine that whatever arrow weight you shoot out of there, it's getting the same force times distance applied to it. So we'll have very similar kinetic energy of that arrow, no matter if it's for me. For me, I just tested a four and fifty grain arrow and a five and fifty grain arrow and the kinetic energy and I measure the velocity get kinetic energy, and they were within about two percent of each other. That's what I've seen over a lot of people's data is kinetic energy is pretty constant within a few percent from a given bow UM, where a little more mass will make it a little more more efficient, a little less energy losses with sound or friction. But so if the force to penetrate the target is relatively constant, like fall. Did you say energy loss through sound? Yes? Uh yeah, so um, you know sound that you hear will be a little bit of energy loss. So I never thought like that. Yeah, like wind drag or like you know, you're shoot an air in here, that's energy loss. Yeah, but it's not the drag itself. You're saying. The actual sound that it's making is the energy loss. Yeah, that vibration which we pick up a sound, there's energy loss there. There's energy losses due to friction when just whatever surfaces are rubbing against each other. UM. And and that um you know, the veins through the air, that's a friction loss too. And there's a little bit of heat that happens whenever there's friction. There's a small amount of heat, and that's how you lose energy there. But these are there's a small factors. Basically, what's happening that force times distance. We'll give you that kinetic energy and then an impact UM whatever energy you have, it'll equal some force times distance through the target. And a big revelation to me was that if I can reduce that force that takes to penetrate, I get more distance one to one. You can cut that force in half. You can go twice the distance. And probably the biggest revelation I found was just the importance of sharpness and edgey tension and how much you can reduce that force um just by having very sharp, hard edges that are durable enough. UM. But retain that sharpness and slide through. But part of the controversy even more lately is that the people that are onto speed and energy, they'll shoot two arrows in a target out of a bow too, into a phone target and show that these two arrows penetrate the same distance into phone um and they should because they have the same kinetic energy within a couple of per scent, and that energy is going to apply some force times distance and if the forces um not velocity dependent, you know, fairly constant, they'll both go the same distance. So that's kind of been the argument on the light fast people saying, hey, it doesn't matter how heavy your arrow is, it's going the same distance through foam or blissic gael. The problem is it's really target dependent, and when you have an animal there's I believe there's a velocity dependence there. You know, there's been some studies that show that, you know, muscle tissue and organs are visco elastic, so that means they're the forces share dependent. So the faster you're cutting on, the higher the force goes up. So in that case mass mass is a benefit um and you can work through the calculus and the equations on this. But just give you an example. For me, if I shoot my four and fifty grade arrow rain arrow um, I estimate if there's a velocity dependence on force that's um linear. I estimate I'll get about more penetration to say muscle um by having higher mass that's going from four to five fifty. So I believe I believe both sides have it a little bit wrong. I think the the high speed guys that are saying it only kinetic energy is all that matters. I believe there is a mass factor to it, and I believe a lot of people that have have shot heavier arrows have had that experience on animals that yeah, I'm getting a little more penetration here with this higher mass um. So I think that's that's why they have it a bit wrong. But I think also on their side, like dr at ashby Law, those followers say it's all mass um and they make out to the mass is a huge factor, and I don't think it's that big of a factor. I feel like you know, for me that four five fifty grains, I estimate that will be about a ten percent increase in penetrate asan um and that's true. Say muscle tissue like that, would you gain another teen percent going another hundred grains to six fifty? I think so, I think a fifty probably another And it's so it's so target dependent though, really and what are you what are you going through? Um? If you're going through bones, then then I think that momentum and like I said to that, I finally get about tem percent more momentum out of out of that heavier arrow as well. And for bone penetration, it's really that the force times time. So this is Newton's second law. Motion is force equals mass times acceleration, and then acceleration is change of velocity over time. So if you just move time over to the side, you get forced times time equals mass times change in velocity or change the momentum was force times time And you're moving to the other side now because we're slowing down as it's going through the animal. Well, it's it's because I want to isolate momentum and explain how momentum helps you. So momentum that impact will apply some force impulse this force times time and I've done a lot of product shock testing in the past. Will we'll design develop a product and then we'll shock it at higher and higher levels to see when it breaks. And what I've learned from that is there's just a damaged boundary curve um theory. But it's you need. You need to apply a force for an amount of time. You can have an infinitely high force. If it's too short and duration, it doesn't break anything. Right, Like I could apply a thousand pounds to your nose for a millisecond and and it wouldn't hurt at all. But if I applied it for a second, you know, it would break your nose. So a lot of things act like that. They need a given force for a given amount of time to break um. So momentum equals force times time. Having that temper cent higher momentum might just get you over that threshold to break. And it's another thing with with um dr Ashby. He said, there's a sixty grain threshold. Velocity doesn't matter, it's just mass, and a lot of people have just run with that, and there's a few there's a couple of things that are kind of wrong with that. For one, you need you need velocity because it's really that mass times velocity that gives you this impulse, force, force times time it's gonna be able to break something, um something, And one of the things we're talking about here is something being like through a bone, like right, well, there has to be some minimum velocity, right, because it just won't work at zero velocity. Right. And I've said that over the phone to theme, like if I throw that arrow at a cape buffalo, it's not going through that bone, right, So it's not just mass um and uh, And I think he understands that, but I think he, you know, his his world is ah is a long bow shooting fifteen to twenty yards at a cape buffalo. And that's really what he was after, you know, getting through that high in that um like a three quarter in thick flat rib bone. And that's what all his work work is around. And it's gonna be so target and dependent. You know what, what what momentum or what force impulse does it take to break the bone depends on what the bone is, right. I mean that that should be obvious to people that a scapula is thinner than maybe lower on the shoulder bone to a leg bone. And so that's one side of it. It depends on what the bone is. The other thing is that depends on what you're trying to drive through the bone. If you're trying to drive um, you know, aluminum ferrel, chisel point head and very thin blades, it could be that it's gonna use that force, you know, that force to crush that is less than the force to pop that bone. And that's what happens a lot there. Um. So that what you mean the force that before it pops the bone, it will break the blades. Yes, yeah, it'll break the blade or bend over the ferrel or things like that. So you know, dr Ashby, I think his number one thing was structural integrity of the broadhead and the components. So yes, so I think that, I mean we agree there. And and that's a lot of what was wrong with the products I had been using is there was no way they're going to make it through bone. You know, they crushed when they go through bone. And and that's a lot of the initial work I did. As I spent about five years going through different steels, different heat treat processes, ended up settling on a two tool steel, which is used to cut metal and metal stamping dies because it can be very hard, sharp, and it has the toughness, you know, to cut metals or to cut through bone and and and not get crushed because if things get crushed or bend or break, it just sucks up all the energy. Um, So we don't totally agree there. You need something durable enough to get through the bone. But then I don't think grain is is a great number. It didn't work for me being an out west bow hunter. It was too heavy. I was getting a big nose dive to my arrows when that arrow dives off. You uh, like if you're shooting a real heavy arrow and it dies off and you're talking about the nose dive right as it drops some velocity. Um, obviously it going slower isn't good. But does that does that changed angle matter? Yeah, there is a change of angle, and you know, so it doesn't stay necessarily like it starts to lose it's horizontal, right yeah? Or does it? Am I wrong? No, you're right. I've shot animals a long distance and the entrance to the next of holes looked like I shot it out of a tree stand. So there's a lot of drop. And you also need to know your yardage very accurately then too, because that's going to ask when when you see or at what distance you see the nose dives starting. I mean, I know that that's dependent on many factors, but yeah, you know, at that time with the bow I was using, and it both have become a lot more efficient, but at that time, trying to shoot a six de green arrow out of my seventy pombo and energy it had, I was really seeing a dive off a lot at fifty yards, okay, and that's that's going to vary by bo And well that's like one of the things that like I shoot a shoot a rover site and I got one pin like set at forty that's like adjustable one pin set at six it's adjustable's two pin system. And the reason I got that was specifically because like I felt comfortable pin gapping out to about you know, forty yards, you know, so anything between thirty and like forty, but past that I noticed there was such a significant drop that even and I'm not shooting a particularly heavy air. I mean I'm shooting like on like the heavier spec from my setups like five and fifteen grains, but even that past forty yards, I mean, like the differential is huge. If you think something that forty four and you think it's walking broadside, but it's actually kind of like walking away from you at a very slight angle. And it's at forty seven, You're like, point impact is going to be like four inches different sometimes right, and and like you, I like to if I see it, say an elk under fifty yards, I just want to draw and shoot it. I've had too many times when I decided to go and range and it was some other animals saw me and they took off running, and I kicked myself, like why didn't I just draw and shoot. I knew it was forty or forty four, And so yeah, if it's under fifty, I like the eyeball range it take the shot because you don't know what's going to happen if you wait longer. Um. So that's part of the reason I wanted to have a flatter trajectory. Yeah. Well, and then also it like eliminates, Like when I think about like an accurate arrow or like an arrow that will kill something in particular, I think about that shot is like a percentage. Um. If it's like I would rather know that I can put the arrow when I where I mean to inside a fifty yards then have the insurance that comes from being like, well, I can blow through that things scalpular scapula if I like make a bad shot. And so it's like, what's the trade off there. It's like, I get the insurance if it's like right or left, I guess, but I I put myself into disadvantage because if my range is even a little bit off, like it's going to be. You know, what I'm saying does makes sense. That's totally the tradeoff. And that's what I tell people that ask for, you know, how do I increase my penetration? And I tell them they'll shoot. Shoot the heaviest mass you can for the trajectory that you want, or within the trajectory that you want, because increasing mass will give you those increases in penetration. They're not they're not huge, but you know, like I said, it's maybe hundred grain roughly or give you a ten percent better chance of breaking that bone. Say so, so there is an improvement to mass, but it's dropping off your trajectory. So that's the tradeoff. Really, and I think, really, I mean I think Ashby, like he kind of was saying the same thing, was like six fifty was the best that worked for him. But I think he says that you should shoot the heaviest era you can within the accept the trajectory that's acceptable to you personally. Right. Yeah, he's been he's been saying that. I've seen that more lately and I've changes tune a little bit. I think maybe, I mean, I've been saying that to him for a couple of years, but I don't. I don't. I don't want to say influence to that. I want to bring up to your point, this is what Mark. I would like to take credit for this. But Mark Boordman brought up this because we were having this conversation Mark Warman from Vortex everybody over there. He's saying, you know, I'd like a flat shoot arrow because like the last two or three white tail box that he shy, I've been like plus forty and maybe even right at fifty yards, you know, which is pretty far shot, small target, you know, on a on a white tail and uh, but we were kind of talking about what a heavier arrow can do, like if you happen to miss, and he says to me, is you know, but I didn't think about all the shots that I've passed up that were close because I didn't have the proper orientation to the animal, you know, whether he was quartering too like he could have just been bone he could have just been bone busting the whole time. And exactly that's one of the biggest factors I think for you know, shooting ironwell broadhead and shooting a little heavier arrow is on a deer sized animal, it just opens up all these other shot angles. You know, the last last couple of meal deer I've shot, we're actually quartering on coming into decoys and a little bit of a downward shot. I knew what the I know the bone structure, well, I knew it was going to be thin scapula and put it right through there and um got a complete pass through into the ground. But I was just totally confident that I can make that shot with this broadhead, this arrow. Um, so I did think it does opens up shot opportunit introduce you know, I started shooting your broadheads because Phelps does, and Phelps has real strong opinions about it, and he taught me into shooting them, and then uh, it's you know, it's a little bit tricky, but he talked me into him and Yanni. He kind of taught me into like a shot that I would have never taken in the old days, the front shot full yeah, the frontal shot like low Brisket and um Menfel's bullshot bulls together like that last year with your broadheads, and that neither of them went anywhere, And that was kind of like I'm not saying I don't you know, it worked good, but it was kind of like that doing a thing that you thought you weren't supposed to do, but someone convincing you that you had the right, necessary thing to do it. But it still feels funny, like to get you a point where you're like to get to a point where you had deer that are quartering to you and you're so confident about what's gonna happen, You're just gonna like punch in there, no one. You're gonna bust through all those bones, you know, Yeah, for years I didn't. For years, I passed up frontal shots or slight quartering two and it was through. And at the same time, I've shot through hundreds of leg bones with our broad heads and completely passed through even like a moose femur, completely passed through and the broadhead looks good, so I knew that it could get through the bones. But yeah, I had that, still had that in my head that according to is a is a no go shot or frontals and no go But um yeah, and you know people are going to argue whether or not it's ethical, But I think I've got the knowledge at this point that I know it's going through a hundred percent confident it's going through that bone and it's gonna stick into the ground on the other side of them. You know. The thing that comes out of this is I remember and talking to Ask, we talked about this where if you hit it, like if you hit a deer, elk, whatever, and you come in behind the shoulder blade and you angle in and punch a hole in its heart, it's dead. It's like He's like, it was kind of like, we're not talking about that, like all the setups out there everybody has. If you don't if you go pass between two ribs and punch a hole in it's heart, sure, right. The conversation is what happens when it doesn't do that? Right? Any broadhead you shoot behind the shoulder, all you have is maybe a rib and the hearts there. You know, any broadhead is gonna gonna kill it. It's what are the other trade offs. Let's say it ducked and turned into it and you hit the shoulder and let me add before I forget, I don't want to advocate that, you know, kids out there should be shooting deer in the shoulder blade right now either because it's it's going to depend on your set up, your broad head. You know, you have to know what you're capable of, and I don't want to. I don't want to encourage, you know, shots that would be unethical if you don't have the right set up for it. Mechanicals. You know, you're not going through the shoulder blade probably. But it's a funny conversation though, to say ethical, because you'd be like, that's not ethical, and you'd say, well, why is that not ethical? Is it measured by it's measured by an obsolete It's like, not ethical as measured by obsolete technology, right, I believe it. That's where it came from. It's not ethical because it doesn't work, and you'd be like, well, it does work. I believe, Yeah, I believe it's ethical if there's a high percentage chance it's going to be a very quick, quick kill. Um, And I believe it is. And if with a mechanical I don't think it is. Togotiot it to the shoulder blade. There's a I mean, they might get through, but a good chance they wouldn't. So you know, you might argue that's not an ethical shot, but it's I guess that's why I use the word ethicals. I feel like as a hypercentage of a very quick kill, very quick death of taking the animal. But it's interesting to I guess, like at risk of overstaying. The point would be when you say whether or not a certain shot with the bow was ethical. It's sort of like, is it ethical with what I'm shooting right? Not? Is it ethical right with what I'm shooting? My personal capabilities, my effective range, all those things come into it. I think, is it you know, what are the odds of that animal? You're gonna take that animal quickly? U versus maybe wound the animal? You know, that would be the the decision there. One of the things that asked you said, and I noticed that because I had had your broadheads is um. He said that the shape of the point on your broadheads is like the big no, no, really, you didn't know this. No, No, I think he said he likes it. I think I thought he said that anything with the shoulder Tonto tip. It's the same thing that he uses that they like to know he likes the Tonto tip, for sure. I thought he only liked the long gradual point. Well, he likes the three to one, and that's the She didn't say that it's naughty to have a step or a shoulder per cent. You're positive. That's pretty positive. Are you talking about the shoulder on the on the blade. I thought that's a no, that's not no. He likes that. That's the Tonto tip. That's it. That adds a lot of strength. Messing up, you're messing it up. But he doesn't. He does push the three to one, which is the biggest, one of the biggest points of contention I really have with them. Okay, explain three to one, all right, So it's being applied wrong. It's the mechanism is wrong there. It's he's saying a three. He's saying a broadhead that has say three to one aspect ratio, like three inches long one inch wide. Okay, draw that for me. You're talking about you're talking about the shape of the broadhead. Yeah, okay, so he just drew a little broadhead, very classic little broadhead. Yeah. So the length is three inches and the width is one inch okay at its base. Yeah. Yeah, the width, like the cutting width you'd have would be one inch, but the length out sticking out the front of the arrow is three inches. So that makes three to one. That's three to one. It takes three inches. It takes three inches to express it's full one inch of width. Yes, Like, if I want to make a one inch cut in your abdomen, a one inch wide cut in your abdomen, I would need to insert this blade three inches into you. Right, it's got a it's making a wedge. It's like you the wedge and inches gotta pushed forward three inches And he likes three to one. Yeah, and which I would say is a shallow ass angle. It is. It's it's nine degrees. And I would say I could imagine, taken to an extreme, you might wind up with something pretty flimsy up towards the tip exactly. So there's there's two negatives to it. One is like an engineer, bro you are, So there's two. You know that I understand that problem. There's two disadvantages. One is it's got a weak point um because the stress is proportional to length cube. So a three to one is going to have a lot higher stress and be more likely to break the tip off. Okay. The other issues is not going to fly very well because you got a lot more surface area. Well, it's gonna be less stable, less forgiving in flight m okay. And what he says is that this has a three to one mechanical advantage, and that's that's where the problem is. Mechanical advantage is it's a term used on a simple machine to give the ratio of force import the force house output. So like on a lever, you might have like you input a force, you get three three and put one pound, you get three pounds out. You know the shape of the lever. So he's applying that to a broadhead like it's a wedge, Like it's wedging something up an inch okay, like like a box that would slide on a wedge. Yeah, if you pushed in a pound of force, you get about a three pound pushed it with one pound you get about three pounds force pushing that up. Well, a broadhead doesn't wedge an animal apart. It's just a big it's a big myth here that it's really cutting it, it's slicing it. You're only wedging it apart the thickness of the blades, yeah, or the ferreal yeah, or then the ferrel and then and then the and then the arrow. But it's totally been applied wrong. Three to one mechanical advantage should not be applied to a broadhead. You call the three to one aspect ratio. But it's dominated by the force to cut. Okay, it's not. It's not wedging the whole animal apart. So is there some other scientific term or or mechanism that what he because what are he is saying is correct? Right? If if your blade is steeper, it should take less force to push through the medium than if it was wider. Yes, And what I've found myself is that it's good point. So a three to one, three to one has about it because eight degrees per side. You know, if you're looking at the access of the arrow, three one is about eight degree a one and a half to one is about sixteen degrees. Those are both very shallow angles when you talk about cutting something, and what I found is there very little difference in force to penetrate if you have a very sharp edge. So if you think about taking a knife and you're gonna cut a roast, and you're gonna just cut it at an eight degree angle, and what force would that take versus a sixteen degree angle? What force would that take with a really sharp knife. They're both pretty shallow cuts, right, they're both just slicing. Now if you get up to like forty five degrees are more where it's more of a chop, then I think that's where. So if you tested it all the way out to degrees or seeing like when does it make a difference When all of a sudden you're like, all right, yeah, this thing is not penetrating. Yeah, I think up over up over forty maybe it does. But what I've seen in the in the range and even at a one to one that's a twenty six degree angle, it's pretty shallow. Um I have found, and I've I've measured the force to penetrate, you know with the instro machine going not through hide and muscle, and I don't get any difference in force with with that. Um those changes in angle of about one to one one point five to one. And I've talked to dr Ashby about this, and the last time I talked to him he actually said, yeah, my data doesn't really um doesn't really show the three to one. He's tested two point six to one and had the same results as three to one. He said that was more of a Howard Hill thing that was carried forward. So it's more like folklore that you need a three to one for um for a broadhead shape. So that's a myth. Let's everybody out there but saying it saying it. It's not true. Do you know what's driving me crazy? More crazy than when I couldn't understand about the bow and the length of the amount of time your string applies pressure under your air, that constant acceleration. Dude, I where there was something about that. He didn't like a shoulder, he didn't like. Chisel tips he liked he wanted to cut on contact, which is what that is. So what he liked is the tonto tips, so that straight three to one where it's got the same angle going all the way out. He likes truncating that with a little bit. So tonto tip just means instead of having that say eight degree per side all the way out, you go to maybe a twenty degree per side right right at the end, and if you don't, you break that tip really easily. Structural integrity. Right, Yeah, So that's basically the reason for it. I found that too. I was testing a lot of three to one broadheads initially through bone. I was breaking the points off all the time, and they weren't flying well, and so I started in my own design getting getting shorter and shorter over time, and then adding that tonto tip to increase that strength when he hit heavy bones. So that's what you're after when you do that tonto tip blade is you're after getting rid of that somewhat flimsy narrow point. Right on one of Dr at Ashby's broadheads, he does have a slight tonto tip on it. It's like he does very slight. That's wrong, Okay, yeah, that's that's one of those Remember remember happy days when he'd be like, I was rude, So what uh, how do how do you like what have you done to actually test it on bone? Right? Because I think that there's a thing like a guy like take something in my mind would be you can look and be uh, all right, I accept all the laws of physics, okay, but in your head, like, but what if you like, what if you're like missing something, like you're not thinking of something? Right? So I just would want to see, um shoot it into a bunch of owns and see what happens. Can you do you feel that you can get to a thing where you know you've accounted for everything and not need to go do that? Because I was thinking that's kind of the main thing he brings to it is he shot umpteen thousand arrows into all kinds of dead ship, right, do you know what I'm saying? Like how you know if you went to a lot of you know, the bulk of Americans, I think they'd go like, Okay, I get all the you know, all the thinking and calculating and figuring, right, but how can you argue with just shooting arrows into dead stuff and seeing what it does? Because what if the tinker the figuring and thinking didn't account for some like unknown weirdness like what hair? You know, what is what is the role of hair? What is the role of it of hide? What is the role of hitting hide? And then the bone? Yeah, good point. You can have we can have the mechanisms wrong, right, I gonna try and apply science, but I could up being applying it wrong if I if the mechanisms a little bit different than I think this. Um, kind of that wedge versus cutting thing going on. Um. And and you're right in theory, and I've done this in theory. I can calculate it with my bow, my arrow, set up my broad head. You know I've measured the force to penetrate hide muscle scapula. I can you know theoretically, I calculated that I can get a double shoulder blade passed through on an elk on paper. Um, But you cant be some part of your brain. It's like, now, I'll try it out right, and I and I have. I've gotten single shoulder blade pastors on on elk. I haven't shopland through both. But I've shot a big boar through both shoulder blades and spine and got passed through both shoulder blades and the spine. So you know, I hunt a lot. I get, um average, maybe fifteen animals a year. I hunt had a lot of elk u, elk, deer, herbo pigs, other things. So I mean I love bone hunting. And that's really why I'm doing this is I want to be a more effective bone hunter. Um. But I also shot a lot of bones, so I was getting you know, cattle bones from the butcher, saving elk bones, and and that's really one of my early goals was just to penetrate through bone, make sure I got to the vitals and didn't have it stopped there. So you know, that made me iterate on which steel type um, which ferreal type going to like titanium hardened steel so the ferrels didn't bend um and then work on the arrow connection set up so that that you know, the arrow didn't break as well. So yeah, I've tested on by shooting a lot of bones, and really because that's a good durability test in that and that impact is hard to model. It's hard to just calculate. Um. It's very complex and if you think about it, and what I didn't really I really hadn't put a lot of thought into it prior to two thousand four is the it A broadhead blade has a really difficult job. I mean, where else out there do you have something that you want to be very very sharp to cut, but you're also gonna fling it at three inter feet per twod and not know what you hit. It might hit, it's gonna hit high, it might hit bone. Um, you don't know what angle is gonna hit at. So it's a pretty it's a pretty difficult job. You know. That broadhead has just to stay intact, stay sharp, cut, and to have this tremendous impact. Um. Yeah, that's that's a You bring up an interesting point there because if you imagine, like taking your filet knife and cleaning a fish, you have this instrument designed for that might be great for cutting through right fish muscle, right right, But then all of a sudden you realize that you put a scale in front of it and it doesn't like that, and you go to remove the fish's collar and it definitely doesn't like that. And then you imagine, now I'm gonna stab it through the fish's skull. It really doesn't like that. But you wouldn't declare, you know what I mean. But you're sort of with your broadhead, your sort of saying no, no, no, you gotta I want you to do any and all of that right when I shoot it at this fish, when I take it to this fish, right, yeah, And that's why a lot of a lot of broadheads. That broadheads kind of evolved to be manufactured at low cost, so cheaper materials, thinner parts, um, a lot of luminum or softer steel, ferrells and four twenty blade steel. Um, it's kind of a low end steel, but it can be manufactured very low cost. And so a lot of a lot of the products drove more towards you know, lower cost to manufacture, and I think that's what consumers wanted. They wanted things that were lower cost. And they work if you hit him behind the shoulder, they work fine, Um, but they don't do very good on these on these bone impacts. What is some of the cost differentials out there? Um, you know, just in dollars, what's a cheap broadhead and what's an expensive broadhead? Yeah, three for thirty or forty dollars just kind of going right for most um, you know, big star broadheads, I would say, and and um so still ten bucks twelve bucks apiece. Yeah, that's that's probably most typical. I mean you'll find some that are six dollars really really low and stuff. Um, but I say it on three for forties pretty common, three forty five fifties some um, you know ironmal broadheads are we're at like one nineteen for a three pack, so it's about really yeah, like three times as much. So wow, I had no idea where like where's that you know, I've trusted it's going somewhere. Where is that money going? I don't mean, like what are you doing? Like what what are the materials differences? Do you know what I mean? Yeah? Yeah, So like what is expensive about? What is what makes them expensive material? It's some material als and manufacturing processes. So yeah, the steel, for instance, it's a it's a tool steel. It's thick, so you know, versus most blades they are thinner. They can you can run those on a reel to reel, you can have a coil of material on one side. It can go through a machine, get stamped um, ground everything right there, and come out on the other side as a complete blade. You know, that's a very low cost to make those versus this blade has made more like you would high end knife where you're you're taking you're blanking out the steel. When it softened, we do a heat treatment with a triple temper and a cry genic treatment to kind of maximize performance of the steel. And then it's a multi stage grinding and honing. UM. So it's extremely sharpen and holds the edge. You know, it's sixty rockwell see, which is what you'd have on a on a high end knife really but yet with a tool steel it it can take a high impact strength. Um. And as we're talking about the difficult job of a broadhead, that's why a lot of people will try to apply knife steels to it, which the steel might work great and a knife because it's not having a high speed impact, it doesn't have to have a lot of toughness. Um. But stainless steel is fairly brittle when it's that hard and it has some high high impact. Do you sell a lot of broadheads the white tail guys? Do you MUSTI sell broad has the guys that are hunting elk and moves and stuff. It's it's becoming more and more definitely. Initially we were selling to elk hunters. That was our major customer or guys coming from the east west to hunt elk, and we're it's kind of thought of as like an elk specialty broadhead. You know, this is made to penetrate through a bigger animal further um, But more and more white tail guys are using it too, And what I found personally is I needed a lot in white tails because there's so much more likely to move, you know, duck and turn um and and hit the shoulder. So I think it's um you know, it opens up shot opportunities straight down through the spa line. Or if you hit a shoulder and a white tail and it's it's it's maybe not the average white tail hunter, but it's the guy that's going after the you know, the bigger buck, or he's really passionate about about it and doesn't want doesn't want to have any failures. He wants to remove any failures you can from this gear and set up. Hey, and you just killed an antelope with one of with the iron wheel broadhead right here? Man, let me see it now, Yannie, what broadheads you shooting these days? It's called a tough head evolution. Now, uh, let's do those play this game. Let's say let's say Bill handed you a box of the broadheads. You'd say, well, no, I'm not gonna use those, because uh, now I wouldn't. I think, I mean for what I for what I know, they're very similar. I mean I think that some of the steel and some of the stuff that Bill can speak to that I can't. But I think as far as like shape and uh size and what they're supposed to do, it's they're pretty similar. Yeah, it's a high and broad head to it. It uses tool steel. Um, do you know what steel you're using and the ones you have? That's all right. I think there's a couple of use. But he's using tool steel. Um. One of the difference would be I've I've added bleeders. I really like that cross cut, and and that's kind of more game dependent. If I was just like dr Ashby going after Kate Buffalo or as no no bleeders, Yeah, he just likes a two blade. Yeah, and if if I was shooting and we make up what we call our buff series which has no bleeders really for somebody that wants to go after Kate Buffalo. But what I found from North American big game, having a cross cut of a bleeder set back has a minimal effect on penetration, and then it opens up this cross cut so you get a much better blood trail, you know, more total cut, more total inches sliced, so bleeds out faster, quicker kill, more blood on the ground. So I'm a big fan of bleed years. For the first two years I didn't have any, and occasionally we would just get a very poor blood trail, like that single slice just can close up too easily. So I like having that cross cut. It kind of forces there to be an open hole to some degree. I've told this before, I think on this podcast, but I shot a magnus stinger into a cow elk maybe fifteen years ago, and it did great what I thought at first, because that like bone or rib, scapula and a rib on the way out complete passed through just like you know, you wouldn't hit it hit her anywhere else. Long story short, twenty four hours later, after the blood trail pretty much disappears, I'm just doing mercy loops and I find her. Um. She had gone a mile kind of in a circle, but she had fallen into this beaver pond, which was lucky for me because she was like completely preserved as ice cold. It's so funny gutting it gutting an animal story, but I don't know where where, like the guts are ice cold. You know. It was great for the netcrop because you could really see everything that happened, but exactly that it had gone through both lungs but had only had a cut on a single axis. And all the best I can figure is that that whole just it was she was the lungs were able to keep that whole together and not lose compression or lose was it towards like higher back like towards the back of the lungs the black lobes. Man, boy, I had to go look at the pictures, but I just tell you it was pretty much dead center if I can remember. I mean it was, but yeah, but it just yeah, she went. We bumped her like at least twice the first day, and then we just decided just you know, set up camp and sleep and go after it again in the morning. The blood just disappeared. You know, when I when I hear cases that the guy like got a double long shot, but the animal went a lot further than it should. I think one thing I've seen a lot with um like stainless steel, especially in I think mechanicals were there only hardening it to like rack. See, is it doesn't hold that edge very well, so it gets through hide. You really get through hot the hair and hide, and it's dull, and then you're pushing tissue apart, so you might poke a hole through and and I've done a little testing of this with with a friend through like organs and things that you can take a liver um saying and push a really sharp broad head through it like our um, like the iron Well broad head, and you get a complete cross cut that's exactly the size of the broadhead through there. And then you take a maybe a three blade um that has the blades have been dulled from the hide in the hair and push it through there and you get a you get a hole through it, but you won't get the blades to cut the tissue will just kind of push push aside. So that's another thing that it's kind of hard to measure UM for people when they're doing these different penetration tests, they don't really factor that in. But having that sharpness and edgey tension, so you're actually slicing tissue all the way through, you're cutting a lot more tissue that you're not pushing aside, and you get quicker kills for that. And I think that bigger hole through the lungs make some claps quicker um because you can have and you know, I've got a brother that's a pathologist, and I've talked to other doctors about this to try and understand, like, you know, what it takes to kill an animal, because I've seen if you hit an animal high and back in the lungs, they can take longer to die. There's just less stuff back there. Yeah, there's less bleeding going on. And you know, you can remove a lobe and somebody can still live right so, um, they can still kind of breathe in the front lobes, and I think it you need enough of a whole enough air to get in there to kind of collapse the lungs. And that's why sometimes people will see an animal go for minutes on a double lung shot. Um. And that's also the reason why I like to aim, you know, in that vital v close to the top of the heart lung area because it's you know, it's risky because those bones around, But if you've got the right broadhead that you can get through the bone, that's the quick kill. You know, that heart top of the heart lung area. It's like five seconds then animals dead and you know usually drop an in sight if you can hit closer there. Yeah, Our buddy Cody Kellum from Born and Raised brought up a really good point. We were talking about this stuff at the First Light Hooting any last weekend, and he was saying, when he was a kid, his dad would make him sharpen his broadheads too, and they would take like remember when peep sites had that the tubing that would keep your peep site down. They would just stretch that not too tight. But he'd say, imagine that's an artery, and then see how much force it takes your broad head to cut that, Like does it just touch it and immediately it pops and cuts it, or do you have to slice that whole edge across it before it cuts right? And it's the same thing when that dull broadheads going through that animal. If it's not sharp, those arteries can just be literally just moving out of the way and it's going through it, but it's not doing any damage. And I saw that in the force testing I was doing that the so I was pushing on different broadhead designs and and a really sharp cut on contact to blade versus like a three point chill free blade chisel point, there will be about a five times difference in force to go through and it's really what focused me more on having a two blade on contact tip. What I'd see on the on the cheaper steels is that if I repeated the test pushed through hide and hide and muscle again, the forces going way up. So they dulled quickly and we're pushing more stuff aside. Let's uh, let's do this for a second. Tell me some things that like that you see people doing that you can just flat out say categorically that is stupid. Yeah, Like, there's no nothing, there's no like, there's no logical, reasonable whatever to support what you think is true. Like, for instance, I sawways believe I was I was raised to understand that pine squirrels castrated fox squirrels and gray squirrels, that they beat their nuts off. This though I still think it's true, I no longer know why because the academic community soundly is like, it's not a thing. It's not a thing. It's is not a thing. Okay, what are people doing that just has no backing? Um, well, this is this is the first thing that popped into my mind. It's it's kind of a bit of pet peeves everybody's doing. There's dozens of people doing broadhead testing out there like showing the penetration different broadheads and the shooting ballistic gel and go on. It's it's pretty worthless for I mean, I shoot it too. It's fun to shoot through it and look at it. But ballistics gel um, it's it's so freak. There's so much friction on the chaft stopping it. They'll test tend different broadheads and they'll have a variation of like an inch and they'll pick out a winner from that. And I've seen yeah, and I've seen two different broadheads that I know will have like a three times difference through a through an animal and they'll have the same penetration through ballistics gell. It's cool to look at it, um, and lots of guys are doing it, but it's pretty worthless. But let's explore that for a minute. Let's say I came to you and I was going to do a bow test. I was gonna do a broadhead test. We're just gonna shoot in the blocks of oak. Okay, yeah, and declare a winter. Would you say to yourself, Oh, if that's the case, I'm gonna go design a broadhead really good at shooting through a block of oak, exactly like I know a guy that did concrete block. You know, it was his test, right, that was a medium. Yeah, And I told him, I can design a broadhead's gonna look do perfect for that. It's gonna look like a it's gonna look like this field point right here, you know, a hard and steel field point, and the blades will be set back so they never even hit the concrete, and you're gonna shoot it into there and you're gonna look at it and say, wow, this one didn't get damaged at all. This is the best broadhead. But if you know, a big chunk of steel in the front, big ball of steel, it's not going to be the best for penetrant. You're an animals. So it's so target appendant. And all these broadhead tests out there, maybe not shouldn't say all, but a large number of them are shooting through targets that don't apply to animals at all. You know what. One of the revelatory moment for me, and I still don't understand it is we were calling have Alena one time and they come in like if everything goes right, they come in like hot right, And in the heat of the moment, I accidentally grabbed a field point and shot one with it. And that thing you'd think, if you'd have asked me, I would have thought it would just zip right through it, right, because like, why not? There's no big old thing is trying to drag through it, like you just matched, it's gonna pencil it. That thing didn't do ship to that Hafler. Where'd you hit it? I can't even remember now. I just remember it ran off. You can see the arrow flopping in its side. But why did that not? Does go right? Like I would have thought it would just go right through them because there's no resistance of trying to pass a big broadhead through it. Yeah, I would have. I would have actually thought there's a chance it could go right through man. But it takes a lot of force to penetrate the high I don't know about a havling a hide, but it didn't bounce off. It just didn't. And maybe it was on bone, but I would have been, like my thing was, it would have zipped through it and you wouldn't maybe be hard to find because it wasn't bleeding or something like that. Yeah, I actually would have maybe guessed that too, that like can a field point penetrate to havling it probably, but it doesn't slice much, so not much bleeding and not a not a quick kill. But are you were doing that happen? Ye? I was nearby. I don't know if I was taking right next to you, but we were on the same trip. But you know that cone point really takes a lot of force to penetrate um, to penetrate high. So can you add that to things that you think people do that are stupid? Yeah, that would be up. There'll be up there. I actually had a customer say that he shot his last shot at his elk last year was a field point because that's what he had left and how did it do well? The elk died right then, but I told him it probably died from the other three you know arrows you had in it. It was it was, it was, you know, it was down. It was going to die anyway. But he said that when he shot his last he didn't realize as a field point until after he went over there. Yeah, it's for the heart, So you know that. That helps give me another one. Things you see in the archery community that just do not add up to scientific rigor foc extreme extreme foc. So because there's this whole thing like that the weighted shaft is pushing. No, it's actually pulling. Yeah, So there there's really not much scientific basis for that high or extreme FOC will increase penetration, you know, at least not at the basic level. So so Newton's second law motion four sequels mass times acceleration. As we said, you rearranged the you get force times time equals mass times velocity um. So that's momentum equals force times time. Momentum is a is a vector quantity. So it's in a straight it's in a straight line, has a direction to it. So this is probably the most basic way to calculate, you know, how far with this arrow penetrate through this animal is? What is that momentum at impact it's going to apply this force over time? FOC is not in there. So FOC is like where's the center of mass located in that arrow? And dr Ashby says that going from a nineteen to FOC will increased penetration by Okay, the physics wouldn't say that that's only changing the center of mass an inch forward. Okay, if that arrow is going in a straight line and that mass is all along that axis in a straight line going into the animal foc doesn't even enter into it. Okay, I I think that, you know, with him shooting a long bow, you know, a long bow has this archer's paradox. It's pretty extreme. You know, your your strings going towards the center of the riser, the arrows being mounted off, you know, sitting off to the side getting better arrow flight, and you need and you need a lot of point weight and fairly flexible, fairly low spine to get that thing up bend around the the riser and end up going straight at the targets. So you've got an excessive flexing of that arrow back and forth, and on a long bow, especially fifteen to twenty yard shots, I think bow tuning and arrow flight trumps everything. And I think that was his number two. He said perfect arrow flight, which you never really achieved. I don't think a long bow, but I think he recognized that arrow flights extremely important and it probably and I've talked to other traditional guys that are also scientists and do lot of testing, and they kind of say arrow bow tuning, arrow flight kind of trumps everything. If that arrow is not straight when it impacts, if it's bode way over um or if it's at some angle, it's really going to kill your penetration. That's because that momentum um, that mass times velocity in a straight line is what gives you that force times time. If it's not in a straight line, if it's bode back and forth or off to the side, you know you're you're gonna get very poor penetration. And so the heavy fo C or the FOC arrows are more um might be more forgiving if you have poorly tuned or wobbly arrows, but if it's if your ship straight, it ceases the matter as much. A lot of the times, I think they just correct themselves a lot quicker. You know, once you shoot with those heavy FOC arrows still get like a lot of flex in the shaft, but it's just that heavy gets itself into line. You've that bill. Yeah, I think they restore faster. I think that um there's a higher frequency of that bending back and forth. I think that with more point weight, the fletching gets steered straight or quicker. So I think that extreme high and extreme foc it was all about arrow flight for him, and I don't think so. I don't I think a lot of compound guys are applying it right now. It doesn't it doesn't really apply. Um. I just did some high speed video testing looking at my arrow coming off my bow a few weeks ago, and my my arrow barely flexes with my bows tuned. UM, And by tuned, I mean the knock is pushing, you know, the string is pushing the knock directly in line with the rest, So the arrows coming straight off the bow. It's not fish tailing right left, up or down. There's really minimal flexing, like you can barely see maybe a little bit of vertical flex but really that's interesting. Yeah, I barely see any um and that's why. And I get really good flight if I'm optimally spine, and I tested um a little weak optionally spine and a little overspined, and I was I was seeing kind of barely any flexing, so I was going very straight, you know, say a foot or a couple of feet off of the bow. Then I think FOC has a minimal effect. I think it's just mass time velocity in that straight line that gives you the penetration. And I'd see a ton of people. UM. I have friends that are customer looking at one right now, is Joe foc over here? Joe, I mean I don't think I actually don't think it. I don't think it hurts. I mean I don't think higher mass, higher FOC, you know, hurt anything other than trajectory. Um. And if you're shooting closer um. And I and I tell a lot of people this, you know, if you're if you're shooting closer range and you can get your bow to tune and shoot, well, go for it. The issue I see with it, and I know a number of customarial builders they'll have a customer come to them and say I gotta have twenty percent FOC and they'll say, well, um, I can get you there, but you're gonna be underspined, you know, really with your arrow and bow set up to get that high, I'm gonna have to put more point weight. We can't get an narrow spine, you know, because they don't make aero spines heavy enough to handle that. Right. Yeah, It's hard for me with a thirty straw to get foc. I've gotta have a lot of mass up there, and I'm gonna be probably underspined. And I see a lot of guys that choose the mass and the high foc over ero flight, and that's that's a big mistake, I think, and that's that's why I'd like people to to quit doing UM if you can get it all to work out, if you can get high mass, high foc and like perfect ero flight UM. And I think the best test for this for people out there, I mean a tune bow and an arrow, which means your arrows coming straight off your bow is really important for fixed broadheads to fly well and penetration. And the test I like to do is shoot a bear shaft. We can shoot through paper, you know, ten twelve feet or something. That's a that's a decent test, but say shoot at twenty to thirty yards with a bear shaft and a flat shaft. And I like to just take one of my arrows, cut the veins off so there, you know, eighth answer very short, so there's no really no vein to it. Maybe even wrap a piece of metal duct tape on it to get the weight the same in the back, you know, within within say five to ten grains, so it's going to act the same. And shoot those two together at at twenty yards and then maybe thirty yards what you'll see is, for instance, I'll take my bow out of tune to test test veins and how well they stabilize. And what I see is um if you're out of tune, if your arrows say tail right coming out of the bow, well you're you're fletched arrow might hit the bull's eye because even though it's going to tail right, the veins quickly correct it and straighten it out. Well, a bear shaft doesn't get corrected, so it stays a little tail right and it'll hit left, and you know, it will reveal the It'll show you that this arrow not coming straight out of the bow. And you know I was. I adjusted it until I was getting that bear shaft to hit a foot left at you know, forty yards. And then I was looking at different veins and different broadheads to see, like, which veins stabilized broadheads the best. You know, even though I was getting a bear shaft to hit a foot over with the right veins and are say, are r broadhead something that's relatively compact with the right veins, I could get field points and broadheads is still hit within a couple of inches at forty yards, But the bigger, wider broadheads you have, the more unstable it is or the more you need to correct it. And then those might be hitting five six inches well, five six inches off with small veins, but then if you had a taller, higher profile vein, I could pull those back into maybe a couple inches as well. So that's another area that I'm spending more time on and I think is really important is educating people on how to get fixed blade bride haas to fly well for him, um, because I think that's keeping some people, you know, shooting mechanicals because they can't get fixed has a shoe well for him. And they've yeah, they've made it so easy. And that's a big story that they used to sell those, right, is that those smaller heads they're easy to They shoot just like your field you Right, if you can't get if you can't get a relatively compact fixed blade head to shoot well for you, there's something wrong with your arrow flight. Yeah, your bows out of tune. Yeah, your bows out of tune. And even though the mechanical is going to hit closer to the field point, and that's kind of the tradeoff, you know, they're more forgiving, they're gonna hit closer to field points. You're both still awed, You're both still on t and your arrow And it might not just when we say bows out of tune. It might not just be that your bows not pushing your arrows straight. It could also be that you have the wrong arrow. You could be underspined. Yeah, yeah, real quick, this last question, we gotta wrap it up. Oh well, when I was like researching a bunch of this FOC stuff and trying to figure out what I wanted in my arrow set up, I kept running into that penetration penetration like over and over again, but nobody really justified why. But then I saw one article that was like, well, if you have a higher FOC, that means that you can shoot a stiffer spine because it will be able to like kind of break down that spine as it goes down range, just like that flex in it. But once it impacts, that stiffer spine will have all that energy like directly behind it, like so it won't like dissipate by wiggling a whole bunch once it comes in contact with the target. That was the only thing that I've ever seen that I was like, Okay, I think that like FOC and penetration makes a little bit of sense, but it seems like you don't think that, and I'm more inclined to defer to you there. I'm just wondering, Well, Um, the thing I like about FOC and I kind of like that wall up to sixteen percent range, is it is improved stability because it the center mass is kind of the pivot point. When you have let's say your arrow comes off a little bit um say tail low, and you've got this wind wind across the broad head that's going to create a little bit lift, and you've got this this wind across the veins that are gonna apply this restoring force, and the pivot points the center mass. So as you move that forward, you get more you know, you get better stability because the veins have a longer level arm and better UM. I think if you take that to an extreme, if you have low FOC to where you have a bunch of mass on the back, then I can see an issue that when you impact something that mass at the back, that arrow cann act you know more like more like a spring or or if it's not perfectly centered, that mass can pull it off to the side. Um. So I think there can be something a little bit to that, but I don't think you know, changing that center mass point by by a half inch or an inch, that's that's what we're really talking about as that big of an effect. Yeah, I was saying word because like you and you're able to increase the spine when it hits like you would have everything just piling up sort of behind that rather than like a low or a high flex sort of spine like a four hundred spine or something. Where it hits it, it's gonna go like a doorstop kind of before it goes in. Yeah, I think, yeah, you know, all comes down to that keeping the momentum in the straight line. So if you have if your arrow is going straight at impact, you've got that more mass up front um, it's going to be better than more mass at the back, because I was say, it's probably gonna be more likely to stay in that straight line versus having mass at the back that might that might take it off course a little bit. That's how I would look at it. Okay, I got three more questions. Are you playing trivia with us if you want me to, because there's one question too, how do you think you'll do? Probably not, well, don't He'll throw your bone. I'll suarantee he'll throw your bone. Never do not me the guy that hosts Spencer, he'll throw you out like a mechanical engineering question. But he won't do anything like that for me. Third questions, how do people find? You know? How do people find so they can check out? You don't advertise the whole hell of a lot. You're most like a word of mouth kind of thing. We've been a lot of word of mouth. Yeah, we don't do spend a lot on marketing. Um, spend most of the time on engineering, but um, iron Wall Outfitters is our website, iron Well off Fitters dot com. We're on Instagram, Facebook, things like that too. YouTube channel, Oh yeah, okay, yeah, we're trying to show I need to get on here to find out how to sharp my broadheads. You said you got a good video about it. We do have a video on there. Yeah. And I'm gonna try and do more this next year to kind of educate you know, the science of bow hunting and try and um, yeah, get more knowledge there. That's great. Yeah, all right, trying to think how you can do in trivia? What do you think I can't believe you're not gonna let us talk about single bevel like I want to spend like one spend a minute on it, one minute, ask you a question, you know, five minutes talk Phil. I'm not even gonna look at Phil right now. I wouldn't. Okay, let's go, let's do it. I don't have you make both offitters, make single bevel and double bevel broadheads. Yeah, maybe just a quick rundown pros and cons. Yeah, so I don't care which which one you want to pick. I I've got a I've got a dog in both fights. So it's it's um. This is just my personal um testing and what I've found, you know, initially like double bevel better. I feel like it's inherently a bit stronger UM. That combination of sharpness and strength is a bit higher there because you have equal pressure on both sides and it's driving through something. And what I saw with single bevel, with all that pressure on one side one bevel, you're more likely to want to bend that edge or break out that edge. And I've seen have personal experience that corroborates that, and I've talked to people that shoot a lot of single bevels and that is a known thing and nobody because you're getting full pass these A lot of times you don't know if it's happening in the animal, if it's happening in the dirt, but you see a lot of times. It's interesting too that it's only on one of the two blades, but you have some very like extreme waving, nous corruption whatever you want to chinking or chipping out edge or just bending right. And I saw that and that's why I was more of a double bebel guy for years UM and it was really through a lot of customers asking pushing forward that a couple of years ago I started. I started thinking, well, I've only tested other single bevels, you know against my broadhead that's got a better steel, better sharpness, so I really should make one the best I can and test it. And I still saw the issue when I was done at twenty five degrees, and I talked to dr Ashby actually got his input on single bebel designs, and he like, he likes single bevel um at five degrees, and I feel like, I feel like some of us testing was found it. He had a shallower total angle as well as a single bevel, so it was a bit sharper too. But anyways, I found that hive degree single bevel wasn't as strong as our nineteen degree per side or thirty eight degree total double bevel, and I had to go up to thirty two degrees until I got to the point where it, um, it wasn't getting damaged on just heavy bone impact. Um. The cool thing about it is they create rotation. So if you as they impact that animal, let's say you your right flesh and your arrows rotating right when you hit that animal with the pressure on that bevel is gonna push when to push that bevel over. So let's say your top one gets pushed right in, your bottom one gets pushed left, and it's going to rotate or continue that rotation through the animals. So what does that makes sense? Steve? I don't know if that's good or bad. Why single bevel rotates through the medium? I mean, try it. If you got a single bevel knife, try to cut a piece of cheese street and you're gonna drive a positive or negative. Well, I've kind of felt it was a negative because it's going to take more energy, It's not gonna slice through the path is longer, right, right. Um, what I what I find is that the positives are is that what the hole looks like, you know, the entrance hole, especially with our so I make a single balble with single bubble bleeders, so the bleaders have that ground on that single balbble ground on them too. In that rotation, I often get holes through the high that looked like a square versus um are double bobble. It's more like a you know, a T shape or cross shape because it's just slicing straight in, whereas that cutting while rotating. So I think the advantages um are that the holes can be a bit more open and maybe a bit more trauma, you know, as it's cutting through things. I feel like the momentum, that rotational momentum of the arrow already at impact provides some of that maybe additional energy it takes to rotate. So you know, I shot my elk with a single bubble last year had great, great penetration. Um. What I'm seeing is they both penetrate really well, they both perform really well, they both breach, they both split bone really well. And that's something dr Ashby said, is that only single bevel um splits bone. Well, maybe it's because we are at a different energy level. But I see that they both are really pop bone and split bone apart, really kind of equally well, so performances, amount of force you're saying, yeah, very similar. Um Anyway, I I think they both worked well. I think what's more important is having hard, very sharp edges, good edge retension, and have the blades tough enough to be able to hit bone and keep going. Thank you for that, Phil, Thank you for giving me those extra few minutes was my pleasure. Definitely my call. Alright, Iron Will Outfitters. Yes, go check out the Broadheads. Check them out. I need to show you the bore who I shot through the forehead phone of your broadheads. You might like the hole in there? Did you? Was that in self defense? Okay? No, you said it was coming back at you, so no, no, No, he was after I shot a prig prior and that pig was raising a ruckus in it called in the board. I've seen that before. Yeah, he was real worked up. He liked what he was hearing. All right, let's move on. Let's let's turn it off so that I can just ask him some off air questions. You feel like you feel like sticking around good night, everybody you feel like stick around. Phil will continue to record the conversation. Thanks are using a jake too and then on sand paper or I just retained really well so you can shoot. If you shoot ten times in a target, I can't even measure it difference. So he really a lot of times target shooting. Right now, I'll just take a white plas don't white as true.