00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven versatile hunting apparel from Marino Bass layers to technical outerwear for every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. Okay, we're recording remotely right now from Kerrville, Texas in a hotel thing like a very bland stale hotel meeting room with the not very bland at all, highly esteemed Dr ed Ashby from the Ashby Bow Hunting Foundation, who is um developed lifelong expertise and arrow and broadhead technology. But before we get to him, we got to talk with with our buddy, Jason Phelps has been on the show a bunch of times, including some of our most popular episodes ever when he comes down and explains, uh, what elk are saying when they make noises? How to mimic those noises? And of course you know from Phelps game calls, and you know what, Yannie, what was the uh? Um? Tell people go how to find that hunt you did with you and Phelps the YouTube hunt. You can go to meat EAT's YouTube page and uh find the latest season of meat Eator Hunts and uh, it's the first two episodes, Part one and part two when I was stunting pelts. He's all nervous. He keeps watching to make sure you're ELK episode out in view metrics. He doesn't want it to get it's I guess it's like neck and neck between your metator Hunt's meal your episode and you meet your Hunts elk episode. He wants that one to be number one. Yeah, he's got real strong opinions about why I should be number one. And he thinks squirrel hunting stupid. So if you make a scroll hunting one and it whoops that one, I've got one plan for this fall, So get ready, Jason. Okay, So Jay's felts Uh why He's like, what's wrong with plastic vehagle tubes? Why? Why did you want to mess around an aluminum vegle tube? Yeah? Up, un to this point, we had all relied on plastic um to try to get a high pitched um you know, those better familiar with oak vocalizations, like a bowl vehagle gets to a very very high frequency um up around like hers. And we've always used plastic and harder plastics to try to get there. Uh, And so the idea came about where, well, if we used an aluminum um material, we would able to be able to get to that frequency um maybe better than plastic um would get there. So nobody had used it. And then the idea of trying to solve a problem that we had with plastic vehagle tubes. The other thing that it did in a roundabout way by being able to get to a higher pitch, we were able to put like a near premaus on it, which fixes another issue of bigger plastic tubes. UM. They're extremely noisy as you walk through the woods, if you hit a tree, if you hit brush, as they dragged through the brush. So by putting the neoprenus sleeve on the aluminum, we were able to kind of make a hybrid system that solves a couple of issues. We can maintain the high note, keep it quiet um. The end result is a very very loud vehicle tube, louder than I can be on my plastic tube. So it is an effective tool in the woods where you know, I got a better chance at getting a response from a bowl at a further distance. And then we had one shot we've been also working on attachments called the easy vehgler mouth piece and the flared mouth piece, and we didn't have the right system to attach those two and so during this aluminum design process, UH, we were able to design it to accept these attachments, UM, which will really assist people that can't put a diaphragm in their mouth to be able to steal bogle and be effective out in the woods. And so another thing about the metal vehicle tubes, it comes with like a mouth piece that which you call the easy bagleer mouth piece, which you make clear is for people that don't want to have, like, don't like to have a diaphragm calling her mouth. Can't make a diaphragm calling her mouth? Yeah, so right now, and you know the best way to bagle is to put an internal diaphragm which consists of a piece of latex, a frame and some tape to seal the call off in your mouth. And we create our vehicles to that. UM. One thing we've noticed over a lot of time, UM talking with a lot of customers, you know, gag reflexes. People that just can't figure out, UM how to run the call. Their mouths don't work right, you know, on and on there are reasons why people can't run a diaphragm, and so what we design is we've taken our very very popular ant diaphragm, taking the tape off and then created a seal inside of an external attachment and all you have to do is put your bottom lip over the small air opening and blow. Uh. There is a little bit of of skill involved, but it's it's you know, at ten percent of being able to run an internal diaphragm. You literally just have to put your lip over the bottom of whole, apply you know, different pressures, and blow through it to achieve in a bold bagle. So it's very easy and it solves a lot of issues that people have it running a diaphragm. So I want you to compare what these different things sound like. So take one of your regular diaphragms and hold it up to the aluminum bagle tube and rip right, and then go ahead and crank one out with the mouthpiece and maybe do whatever back and forth, you know, so people can hear the difference between what they're what you're getting with a diaphragm and what you're getting with the easy beagle or mouthpiece. Which you really just like kind of put your mouth over and and blow. Yeah. So we've taken the this tube had the easy bogle are on it, so we've switched over to the flared detachment, which is meant for diaphragm colors, and we'll give it a little go. So, yeah, that's a diat it. It's got great back pressure, it's easy to run, and it's got great sound. So we just went ahead and took the flared mouthpiece off, snap the easy Bugler on, and we'll give it a give it a go. So one thing I can tell by blowing it in my office here versus the first one, and you may not be able to tell since we're going over the phone Steve, is that this is extremely loud. Um not easy Bugler was. I don't know if it's louder, but it's definitely louder, and it's it's it's evident by what my ears are feeling right now that that easy Bugler is louder. And I'm allowed diaphragm color, but I cannot get the same volume out of a diaphragm as I can that easy Bugler mouth piece. So, like I mentioned earlier, I don't want to be a broken record, but it's got some good utility out in the woods. Or an Elk hunner trying to get something to respond. Yeah, there's a like there's a market difference in the volume and how well it carries. So you're either gonna Elk are gonna hear better, other dudes are gonna know you're there and move away. Either way, it's win win, all right, man, Um, we will talk to Jason Susan take our Yeah, thanks for having me. You guys have fun in Texas and we'll see you guys soon. Doctor ed Ashby big time researcher and arrows and broadheads Wow Ashby Bowl Hunt Foundation. Right, but now you don't have a doctor in that. You got a doctor at eyeballs. Yep, that's it, that's all right. The military doctor. I was in the military yep. Spent uh almost ten years in the Air Force and changed over the Public Health Service. Worked out on the Indian reservations for a number of years. That was in the area office covered seven states up in Minnesota, that area up in there, and then it ran the eye care program nationwide for the Federal Bureau or Prisons. In my last four years, so I did twenty six years with the government, long enough, and then you went off to Africa. I retire, liquidated everything I had in the States, moved to Africa, got it and got into the Then he got into the broad heads and arrows. But I actually I was doing stuff like that long before uh. I got involved with the Tall study back in eighty four. And uh by pure accident, pure good luck. Good luck has seemed to follow me the whole time I was. I had written over trying to see if I could uh hunter rhino with bowing era and no, it wasn't legal, couldn't couldn't do it. And then what gave you the idea that you should have should have to even ask somebody to if you could shoot a rhino with a born arrow? Or who did you write to? Well? I wrote to the game department there in South Africa asking about him. And then when they decided they wanted to look at archery and see about legalizing it. Uh, they're in the Tall Province. They were having an eating sitting around talking about, you know, how they were gonna set this up, how they were going to do it, what animals are going to shoot? And they got talking about the big animals. What you know, how big an animal could you take? And stuff? And somebody there and I still don't know which. One of them said, you know, somebody wrote me to three years ago, uh, asking about hunting a rhino. So I think I've still got the letter. Went and looked in their files. They did contacted me, said you still want to come try to shoot the rhino with boring air. Told me about ten seconds to say yes, and uh, so you know we set that up. I went over, I did the rhino hunt while I was there and talking to him and stuff. It's got a few other animals on that trip. Uh. They said, Look, I said, this is what we're doing, and we're looking at if we want to legalize this. So would you like to come back next year? So let's repeat the rhino and then you bring as many different broadheads as you can lay your hands on, and we'll go into Maccouzi Park and before the Rifle Cup, we have to cull animals every year and we will shoot as many animals as we can shoot. And we want to, you know, take a look at the effectiveness and what we turned out and doing is they literally wanted to take any shot that we thought we could make because they wanted to look at what happened when you made bad shots with different arraw set ups and so forth. And so we went in there and I think you shot a hundred fifty four animals in thirty days in Maccuzi. Uh. But we were backed up with a rifle for that, so that if you shot an animal and you weren't sure it was gonna be a lethal head, they would put it down with a rifle immediately somewhere remote from where the era was, so that we could dissect the animal and look and see what the air had done, make a determination would it have been lethal? Would it not? Um? You know what happened? Why was it not lethal? Um? And if we couldn't determine, they had a couple of veteranarians on staff that we could take the animal back into their shed. There the veteranarians were dissect them and tell us exactly what they found if, you know, and make a determination would it have been a lethal hit, would have not? It was rather interesting experiment. Uh. It's rare to get an opportunity to do that. All the later research we had to do on freshly cold animals, but all of that initial was done live animals, and most of it was on Oh, we did a few zebra and kudo and in y'alla, in Paula ward hogs. Most of the initial study was done on smaller animals other than the rhinos. And uh, what haven't you shot at the rhino? They died? How quick? Uh? They were a pretty good distance. The first one probably covered I would say it probably at least a half mile. But we have much better air setups now than we had then. Then I'm working with no knowledge of of what's gonna make the most effective ERA set up. All I could go on was a little bit of historical data. There wasn't and nobody had shot a white rhino. He's twice as big as a black rhino. He's six thousand pounds instead of three thousand. Uh. There had been a couple of people shoot black rhinos. Um. Bill Nagley had shot one, and Bob swine Hardy shot one. Uh. And of course Howard Hill didn't do a rhino, but he'd done the elephant and stuff like that. So I had to draw on what I could find in their writings to try to devise an error. And uh, um, I actually designed a different era for the second time around. It was one era hill and it went a little bit further. It was a rather exciting story on him because I shot him from from six ft away seven feet give me away from my footprints to his with no rifle back up. And so it was and that's the only animal that's ever shaking me up. After it was over, what was going on, as calms could be. After I shot him, I shook like a leaf. Didn't know where you were standing there. Well, it was an old bull that had actually been d hornedy. Is actually bigger than the first rhino, which was huge. Uh. It lived in this one valley and said we were trying to take off one of these old bulls but no longer breed. And every time we would see him he would go out and he'd go through this mountain pass. Well, we'd gone out that morning. We dropped all the trackers off on fresh tracks to gold look and see what kind of rhino it was and which rhino it was. Uh, see if it's one, we're going to go after night and there was just Chris Freeman and I left. He's one of the game Game War game rangers there and uh, we came to that big basin and looked there was that bull down there again. And Chris said, okay, now he's done this to us several times, said, I'll give you forty five minutes. Associated you go around to that that cut he's going out in, you'll probably got the same way. Then I'll try to stalk him real slow and easy, just like we have and and he'll probably push right out through there. And I did. So I went up to that draw and it kept getting there, and there in this real steep bank, like sixty degree on both sides, and as you got it right up to the end of it, it opened up into a big white area. But they're at the end of it. There's two trails. There's one that's about three ft up on the side and one down in the bottom. And I look and all the tracks are on the bottom. So I said, well, there's nowhere where else to go. I gotta stand on this upper track. And so I get up standing there and I'm waiting and waiting pretty soon and hear rocks rolling, rocks kicking. I'm sitting there and I'm all ready and I cut my eyes around and he's about twenty yards from me. On the upper trail and he comes on and he gets about fifteen yards or so from me, and he drops down to the lower trail to come out, and he walks by me as closest across this table. And because they're big, you know, he's more than six and a half feet at the shoulder. So we're right there together, and I got nowhere to go. You know, there's I can't climb this bank, can't run out that way, can't run that way. And as a rhino, sorry, I don't even know, as a rhino known to like cause problems with humans, like oh yeah, oh yeah, they killed several people there, yes, there where we were hunting. They had they had killed several including one of the game rangers had been killed by one stomping on him, goring him, stomping on him. Most of they just hitch you and toss you around a little, which is enough, you know, can can you? I want to also want to back way up and talk about when you were a kid, But um, before I do that, you mentioned and being de horned. At some point someone tranquilized them and cut can you can you explain what you're explaining to me last night when we're having dinner about the deal with the deal with rhinos that can't breed. Yeah, the whole thing with rhinos is that they will live. The bulls will live uh way past their breeding age, but they will hold a territory. Now, years ago, when there was all of Africa to rom there's no problem bush, I'll find new territory. But now there's people everywhere, a little islands of animals scattered around Africa, so they have a limited habitat. So unless you go take these old bulls off, the younger bulls can't establish a territory. If they have no territory, they will not breede. Territory pretty big, so they have to have a lot of area. And as long as that dominant bull is holding the territory, nobody gets to breathe. If he's past his breeding age, does he still think he can breede? He's just shooting blanks or no, Yeah he should be. He's still shooting blanks. Yeah, he's he's now sterile at him and he will live another ten or twelve years holding that territory. So no breeding is going to go on in that territory that he controls. So one way around that has cut his horn off and he can't defend it as well. Uh No, they cut it off. They cut the horns off. Keep the poachers from killing him doesn't work. The poachers will kill him for nub of a horn. You have to keep cutting it off, just right down to skin level. And even if it's cut down the skin level, they followed up, find a d hornman, they shoot it so they never ever have to track it again. Yeah, So the poachers are a major problem, and that's one of the nice things with the hunting programming there is that the rhinos are so expensive to hunt. They have a huge monetary value. So that monetary value is both to the people that are on the land because a portion of that money if you're hunting on one of the camp fire areas something like that, it's going to the local population, and of course the meat's gonna all go to them too, Or if it's a private landowner, which a lot of them are on private ranches and so forth, it's a huge amount of money to him. So they actually hire game scouts out of their own pocket to go out and try to keep the poachers under control. But if that animal didn't have that economic value, they're not gonna lay out all that money to hire game scouts to go out and try to control the poachers. You've you've eaten rhino and hippopotamus, and yeah, does all look like dear meat? Like, what's it looks like? No? Actually, the the white rhino is a grazer. He eats only grass, and uh and the hippo same thing. They're they're both grazers and it's very much like a range beef, grass fed beef. It's very very similar meat and excellent meat, excellent eating. Uh. You also mentioned I stay with that. We were talking about bullfrog hunting. Yeah, and you said you grew up poor hunted for me? What was that all about? Like, what were the circumstances and you're growing up? Well, you know, my brother and I we we just thought it was great fun. But uh, we were basically feeding the family and you just didn't realize it. So we hunted all the time, and uh dad was he was an r rifle instructor and so we you know, I shot competition in my first match when I was five years old, and he used to when we were small. And I've actually still got the twenty two five twenty one t Remington's real small little match rifle. Uh. He gives us one shell and you go out. If you kill something, bring it back in and have another shell. You can hunt all day. The first time you miss your through for today, you can go back tomorrow start all over again. What would you guys hunt for anything that moved? Uh? Where where was that? Where did you go? East Texas? East Texas? Ye? Yep? And you and you started in on bow hunt early. Yeah really, I mean like both early in terms of your age, but also early in terms of oh yeah, bo hunt. My dad always talked like, you know, he started bowl hunting in the fifties, you know, and there weren't even both seasons and stuff. Yeah, there weren't. There weren't any special both seasons early on. And there were only two of us in the whole county that uh they shot a bow many and the guy enterup hunting with he was a World War two that named James Hayes. And uh, we could shoot a bull frog and get a picture on front page of the paper. I mean big picture. It's a big time and because people are just unfamiliar with it. Oh yeah, and we did a lot of armor calling and stuff, and uh James shot a bobcat one night, and lord, it took up the whole front of the front page of the paper stories about because a lot of people didn't know we had bobcasts in these Texas. So it was great fun. And then uh, we'd come down and we deer hunt. And then when they did get a deer season going, Um, Bob Lee had a lease that he established the first bow hunting only lease in Texas if Wheelock, and we hunted on that lease there with with Bob Lee. When we see the first establishment, they were like the first guys that thought to go pay for hunting excess. No, no, people paid before that. But it was a lot cheaper than it is now. I mean when I was because you could go back in time and and and rubbed that guy out. Yeah, when I was about maybe it would never become a thing. Yeah, seven or eight years old. We would come down to this area Rock Springs, Lanto, Marble Falls all through there. Our lease year round lease was ten dollars. So we'd come down, we'd fished, we squirrel hunt, we turkey hunt, so that that was a whole year round lease was ten dollars. Uh, So it's changed a good bit. Now. Even back then, were you interested in uh? I mean, I'm sure you were interested, But when when did you first start getting interesting like tinkering with well, I'm taking with Archer equipment. Oh what really got me interested in it was when Howard Hall made the movie Timber. He toured the United States doing going to schools, doing shooting exhibitions to let people know there's the movie in town. And I got to see Howard Hills shoot and uh, things that wouldn't let you do now, you know. We're all on the auditorium there, and and the opening thing was the targets up on the stage and he comes through the doors the back and shooting airs over everybody's head into the target up on stage. And that was back in the day where he'd have assistance, you know, whole stuff and shoot it out of their hands and put it on the head and shoot it off their head. So they would go nuts for stuff like that. Now, wasn't it Burrows? William? Was it William Burrows that shot his wife trying to shoot Apple's off her head? Oh goodness, I do not now know. Tropical tropic of cancer and tropic capricorn author, wasn't that hill they got the drink in one night? H So that guy like his big deal was he went he was the first guy to shoot up I don't know about the first see that's the weird part about it, Like the first guy to shoot an elephant with a bow. But there's research now that suggests that the bowl had been invented. Oh perhaps you know, I know they say the bow and arrow was invented multiple times around the world, correct, like independently, but perhaps away long time agoing after was somebody probably killed some yeah, yeah, and you do have you know tribes there uh in East Africa that like the Hogsa and so forth, uh As they hunt with poison eras. But historically there's four back of people to remember, uh. They would build these deep cuts into the banks going down to the rivers so that hippo and elephant could go down there and they could stand above of them and shoot them as they came through these cuts. And and who knows how far backs that goes. And with poison arrors, it's poison arrors sometimes you know, it might take them forty eight hours to die, but they fought just following the animals. He dies Yeah, there's an old documentary I've seen. You've probably seen it where these these boys go out and uh stick a draft with a poison arrow. And the documentary a friend of mine was, she's an anthropologist that she was doing work in African She sent this thing to me um and they just spent a couple of days trailing after it eventually gets pretty sick. Yeah, that's basically what they did. Kind of stands there, sweating and convulsion and whatnot, and they can finally go on and kill it, but they stuck with it for days. Well, that's why you have great, great trackers. And of course the best trackers that are laughter probably probably the Bushman and the Hodza, these tribes that hunt with with the poison arress. Uh. There's not a lot of great trackers left in Africa. There's some. They would be great by our standards, because very few people in this country can track anything. They have trouble tracking something through the snow. It's really pretty sad. But some of the I've had the opportunity to work with some trackers that were just unbelievable, uh, that literally could track animals across what looked like bare rock. I'm a pretty fair tracker. But they would they would draw a circle, says right here, and they would explain what they're seeing, and I still couldn't see it. And I'm not a bad tracker. Uh, some of them are. Just it seems super human, it really does. But there's not many of those trackers left. Did you get into medical school through the military? Drafted? I was drafted in the last draft we ever had, the United States Special Draft called forty four. All the medical people. Yeah, that one of the one when they started drawing numbers and it matches up to your last name and whatnot ever won in my life was a draft lottery and they so they drafted you. But you were already a med student. I was already out of school. Oh I got you. Yeah, I was deferred from the draft while you're in school and then got out. Okay your numbers up? Yeah? Did that? Did all that knowledge of anatomy and everything? Uh? That you were trained and when you're in school did that all? Do you think that that led you to start becoming interested in air lethality? Uh? No, I was always interested. You know, we were a hunting family, and common topics would be terminal ballistics of cartridges and bullets and things like that. And even from the very start, we'd shoot an animal and um, you know, Dad warned us to dissect it to see what the bullet did, recover the bullet we possibly could, and so forth. And I got into bow hunting, and uh, I didn't think a whole lot about it really until I've been hunting twenty five years or so, and all with traditional equipment, and I decided, okay, it's about nine eighty, I'm gonna get a compound. Now, you know, everybody's going the compounds and the amount of improvement you had in the bow and how accurate you could be with it and everything. So I read what I could find new magazines and this that bought into it. Whole hall got uh it was a garden uh compound and you got some light errors and some multi blade replaceable blade broad heads. So they had those even in nineteen eighty. Oh yeah, they had a placeable broadheads are already replaceable blade heads were oh yeah, very common then. Yeah, And was trying to remember like some of the ones, Oh yeah, thunderheads, remember having a thunderhead and what was the one hit six blades? Razor back had five and like that plastic Yeah, I had kind of that plastic combing wing on the front. Fake, I interjected, just real quick, it'll drive my dad nuts if we don't introduce our other two guests real quick. Sure, you just introduce yourself, tell us what you do. Go ahead. Second, Todd Smith, I'm with Grizzly Stick Garrett Sleef, owner a Grizzly Stick Arrows, and we've been working with Doc on his research for a long time years, So we're starting with your dad, starting back with two generations of working on this stuff. And we were kind of the first guys to really look at what he was brilliant and then try to build equipment following what what he was doing. So we didn't really have a roadmap. It was just more of yeah, and we were learning news. We went well, I mean we were still learning lots of it. We've learned lots. There's still a lot of unanswered questions. Yep. Thank you appreciated it. Yep. So when do you uh was your first was that deal when you went to shoot the rhino in South Africa? Was toying with getting uh? Both season? Yeah? What year were they thinking about doing that? And they ultimately did it right, we went eight four and eighty five. I shouldn't say a bow season they're gonna legalize, Yeah, but the I mean, it's it's surprising to me that they even had at that time. A lot of countries in Africa probably didn't. They probably hadn't prohibited it because they didn't have that you could legally hunt. Were places that were signing on on ways and means there's the only place you could legally bow hunt. That law in South Africa was the first affirmative bow winting law in Africa in si So prior to that, prior they had spelled out what leader was no place that it set is legal to bow hunt. So if you want, if you look at look at those early hunts that everybody did, like Bob Swinehard and Howard Hill. Uh they did him up in Kenya which was still open then Uh, Tanzania and Mozambi all places that were silent. That's where like the adeladdle crowd drifts off to Alaska. Yeah, or that dude that wanted to kill a barrow the spear like she went somewhere in the Mississippi. Then after they did that, they clarified it that in fact, you can't kill a barrow to spear and yeah, yeah, I got you. So South Africa was the first place in Africa to decide to do after we did all decide, presented it all to the parks board. Uh, they legalized bow hunting and then it's just Domino, you know. Then it was Zimbabwe and it was Zambia and it wasn't a maybe. Uh and it just went on and on because they were afraid of lose in business. So yeah, well once they say, hey, you know these people getting this bow hunting money in, so you know they're making foreign you know, for X is coming in. Uh, let's get on the bandwagon here and get some of this. When you earlier mentioned getting into compound bows and you said, like you bought into you bought into all that, bought into all? What to the light fast arass you know? And U what I had beamons, remember little skinny beamons, And that year I hit and lost four deer. I had never done that, So I said, something's wrong. So I did what I would have done with a rifle. I said, you know, unless research, somebody who's got to research what works what doesn't other than just reading a magazine and seeing what you know, the companies are advertising and stuff is being pushed. So I was looking for stuff like Chamberlain's work with rifles and you know, some some honest research. Nothing, it didn't exist. So I decided, okay, I'm gonna have to find out for myself. And now this was about you know, early ages before the Tall thing came up. So I was already started doing stuff and looking at what was happening before the the Tall thing. Well, when the Tall thing just really kicked started me. Now I had a database. I mean, we had to really collect data to do these reports for the Tall Parks Board. Well the time we did than the Tall study, I had more questions than I did when I started that. And I found that all the way through twenty six years of research is every time I do and you set a test, I end up with a new set of questions of things to look at, and I'm still not through. That's why we established the foundation because after I hurt my back, I can't do anymore. Uh So somebody had to take over. And you're not gonna find any idiots like me. I did all of eye out of my own pocket. Every era, every Broadhead, every feather, everything was purchased by myself. I won't to stay independent of the archery industry. Wish we still do. We do not take donations from archery companies things like that. Yeah, noticing on your boy's website, the Grizzly Stick website, there's a note on the bottom that says, uh, because you have an asked me Broadhead yep, but a note on the bomb says you won't take any money from that Broadhead. Nope, not even a little bit. Nope. That was hard. That was part of the agreement. That was everybody, I wouldn't use my name on it. Yeah, and I'm not that smart, but I got I'm like, that sounds like a pretty good deal. Yeah. The other covenants on there was not at all. The other covenant was, when we do the testing, if the Broadhead works, you pull use my name on it YEA, with a disclaimer that I don't receive any funds out at it. Because unless you stay totally independent of industry, your research is tainted. And there's a lot of stuff out there, a lot of wound lost studies that were financed by the archery industry that come up with these incredibly low wounding rates by archery standards. They're showing. All of the studies that were independently done by game departments all show almost a one to one race. I would say, I would say it with and I would say with Elkin America, I definitely say that that's the case. I think it is just about everything. And I guided while I was in Africa. I did quiet particularly there's bow hunters. I'm sort of a freelance guide, so you know, if they had too many clients, I would go in or if they had bow hunting clients because there was almost nobody over there and anything about bow hunting that I would go in and work with whoever with their bow hunting clients. And I would say it's definitely it least one to one in Africa, whether the equipment that people were bringing and using. Yet you can cut it down to almost nothing as I got towards the better error systems. UH. Out of the last twenty five years where I have actual records tracking the animals that I've killed, there's six hundred and twenty seven animals, four lost animals four. I get that, but like it has so much to do with ask your question about consistency, Yanni, because it has so much to do with like, did you punch a hole through its heart? Like if you're if you're a very good archer taking very close shots, you're gonna have a very high recovery rate. You can't really always do that. I was a ground hunter. I've shot a few animals out of tree stands up, but very few stalker. Now, stalkers don't necessarily get set up shots. Now, my whole goal from the get go was to find the most effective error system you could possibly use, because a lot of the shots I took were shots that they're not broadside shots, you know, they're long quartering shots facing you, shots moving animals, you know. I used to when I was a kid. I mean, we shot a lot of moving targets. Animals just as big moving as he is standing still. Target size is still the same. So I didn't have too much trouble at all shooting moving animals. Now. We used to do a lot of bird hunting and stuff flying birds. Uh, weller, both didn't hit a lot of them. It's got a lot of practice running rabbits in front of dogs, and you can get pretty good on running shots, good enough to shoot big animals. A big animal actually gets pretty easy after you, you know, practice on stuff like that. Nobody does that kind of stuff anymore, um. And you know, there were some things in there that I didn't have, a lot of animals that were gut shots. I've never lost a gut shot as I got into these better era setups. But a lot of that's careful management of after the shot, of leaving it long enough, of stalking the trail, you know, and and not spooking just like you're hunting the animal again to find it. And most of the time, if you give them eight, ten, twelve hours, they're dead. Um. As a matter of fact, I don't think I've ever had one go beyond about a hundred and sixty yards when I didn't pursue him. He feels bad, he lays down, You give him time, and he will bleed out. There's a lot of think of your digestive system. There is a lot of blood vessels in there carrying away all this digestive food, nutrients and so forth. And the single bevel heads that rotate actually will wind intestines up around them, and you get a thing called a starbursts cut. Now, I didn't know this. TI was doing a lot of the research. But you'll get cuts that are five or six inches away from the path where the air went through, where it's wound stuff up around it and made all these little cuts. And I was doing that by taking die in a syringe and injecting it into the intestines and looking at them where the dye is coming out, And so you get these huge starbursts cuts in mobile tissues, and you get some of that effect even in lung tissues, where it just almost liquefies the lungs just MUSHes it up. And I've got a lot of photos of dear that you will look at and think they were shot with a rifle because of the amount of blood shot tissue. You do not get that with double bevel heads. Let's save the double and single bevel you you want to get into that right now. I want to get into grains, all right, explain that you are we there? Yeah? Have we covered off on enough of like how we how doc did the studies? No? Okay? But for people that aren't real familiar with aero setups, that's true. I think that when he's talking about aero setups, I think people need to know what he's talking About's true, that's true. Um, it's an arcane unit of measurement. But explain what a grain is because we're gonna talk a lot about grains. Well, it is a unit of measure, and there's seven thousand grains to a pound. What is that based off just counting up powder grains? Well, I'm not counting grains, but that's where the unit of measure works out. That's what a grain is. Yeah, but it's got seven thousands of a pounds. It's an English measure moment, it's got to be something like some dude took a pound, some dude took a pound of like granulated powder or something. No, no, it came from actual like seeds or whatever. I don't know. Yeah, I don't remember which one of the stage, but together a unit, it came from like a foot about as long as your foot. Yeah, So that's where all these weird English stuff comes from. Is you know, what's the cloth yard? What's the foot? What's the yard? Yeah? You know there's a clay nucom our colleague. He's telling me there's an old unit of measurement called the eel. How it's spelled, and it's No, it's a deer neck. It's a sack made out of it. It's a sack made from a deer's neck. And you would and they would put how you would sell tallo, you would sell tallow in it, and it would be an eel. We're trying to start a cryptocurrency called we're trying to start a cryptocurrency called bear grease, and it's gonna trade and eels. That'd be good bear greacy, useful stuff. This. We got a whole plan for this cryptocurrency. Man, it's gonna a little bit point out of the water. Uh. Okay, So seven thousand grains to a what can you give it in like fractions of it converted to metric or or don't you know how to do that? On top of your head? Four hundred and what is it? Thirty something? Tom, It's something like that. It's four thirty something. Okay, I can't remember exactly what point. Uh, let's say the point being this, most broadheads today, most like when you go online and buy broadheads, um, you'll hit a little drop down menu and it's virtually certain that they're gonna be available on one tens and hundred was if they got to that'll be the two right, yeah, um, and those are what I mean they're they're not an ounce fractions of an ounce and then the arrow explain arrow weeight like like like you're like, what would be the most like currently day most guys going into their archery shop and buying arrows for a contemporary compound set up or buying arrows, and what would you say is three. It's about where they're gonna be, and that is people maximizing speed. Well, speed has been pushed. Kinnetic energy has been pushed to get connetic energy because the formulas squares the velocity. It looks really good as sells speed cells. And the industry has pushed this stuff since the nineteen fifties when the Allen compound first came out, and then the Jennings compound and and those were the first of the compound bows and uh, they were so much faster than traditional bows. And then as they got them faster and faster and faster. This is what people buy. I met a guy at the archery range when it was out tuning Eras in Australia who had just bought a new bowl because this new bowl was four ft per second faster than his old boat. He spent on this boat to get four ft per second m HM, which is not gonna make a bit of difference. It is the error that kills. I'd be much happier to go out here and there's no onld Indians. It's the arrow that kills, but it doesn't kill land on the ground. You have to once it's in fly. He didn't know what launched it care like damn sure knows how fast it's going. It knows how fast it's going and how much force has got, but it doesn't take as much as you think it does to get it to perform. Still, it's still, it's gonna be moving. It's gotta be moving. Moving one mile an hour isn't gonna do it. So there's a point. I mean, there's an argument to be made for it moving really fast. Well, there's a argument to be made for not moving fast. It's moving at late speed. The resistance quadruple as the speed doubles. Example is go down the road at thirty miles an hour and stick your hand out the wind and field of resistance. Now go sixty and field of resistance. Now go ninety and field of resistance it goes up as the square of the velocity inquiries, so you get at ninety, you've got nine times of resistance you have at thirty. One of the things we're finding because we get all his data back in from thousands of hunters over Buffalo shot now and over a hundred elephants with these era setups, we're seeing more passed through shots with bows sub seventy pound film war with heavier draw eight bows. That's one of the things we're gonna research. Something's happening. We don't know what, but there it's a significant difference in the number of passed through shots. Is it the tissue resistance going up at the higher veloss Like, is it more flexional in the shaft on the shafts not stiff enough to handle the impact at the higher force? You know what? What is it? We got to find out that's less one of the things on our list of research. Okay, Yanni asked all about the research now. So man, there's a lot of questions right now because I think you just very quickly because numerous times now you've said, like the arrow set ups that we're using now, So we sort of Steve laid out what the what like a contemporary you know in this crowd seems to be an insufficient arrow set up. So explain what the what a sufficient arrow set up is? Now that what we're talking about. And then also on the heels of that, tell me when when all these other archers are sending in this information and data points, I want to know, like, is it just like a phone call and they're sort of giving you, like the anecdotal story of what happened or is it literally they have a form? Don't that they fell out for you. I've tried having other people collect form dat I was called out the forms and stuff, and you can't get people do it. It's a lot of work. They just won't do it. It's just too much. Pictures you get, pictures you get. We get a lot of dissection pictures though people. I try to push that if I could get every hunter, every bow hunter, to just dissect the animals he shoots and look at what has happened. But more importantly, if he ever get the chance to dissect the unsuccessful shots to find out when they want they fail, That's where you really learned something. Successful shot didn't tell me much. But anytime there's an unsuccessful shot, it gives you an opportunity to find out what happened, why did it fail? And that's really where you learn to develop these better error systems. If I take what I like to call a penetration maximized ERA and put it against what I would consider a good error, better than what most people are shooting today, I can more than triple the penetration. That's fifteen inches and set of five are thirty inches instead of ten. That's a big difference penetration. We've got people out there with women with with low forty pound compounds getting five and six ft of penetration on things like eating on quartering shots. It's incredible. Explain the aerra set ups that they're using. Those those ERA setups are very high FOC because most of them are short drawals. Would would normally bet or more with the ERA set ups that they're using. FOC that's the weight forward the center and uh we actually established munch those because traditionally you had you know, a low FOC in a normal FOC, which was you know, eight or nine percent, and then a high one which was fifteen and sometimes as much as eight. And as I got into the research, I had to develop some names for other stuff. So we went into extreme FOC, which is from nineteen on up to thirty and above thirty we call ultra extreme. Now, the reason I come up with those names was real quick to explain the percentage of talking about that's how much the weight the balance point of the area is full of the center of the era, the physical center. Yeah, but how do you I don't understand how it's reflected in percentages and not is the is the percentage that it is forward to the center, and then you count from the knock to the front of the broadhood the shaf you can use there. They are both methods are used, but the AMO standard is from the throw to the knock to the end of the shaft, does not include the head. About the overall set up you're talking about the erralf I prefer that one because if you take the same era and you put a field point on it and a broad head on it, they're gonna be different links and you're count with different FOC percentages. The FOC we measure is a relative term, just like the static spine of an era. It does not tell you much dynamically. FOC actually is an aeronautical term and it's how far the center of gravity is from the center of pressure of an object in flight. M hm. So we've just used that picked it up an archery because it gives us a rough idea. Now with it works the same way with a plane. The higher the FOC with the plane, the more stable the plane is in flight, the harder it is to turn the plane. The lower the foc, the more maneuverable it is. Well, which one do you want your error? You want your error going all over the place? Do you want it only if you have a saying where it's going? You want possible? But now I like to listen to that analogy before and something that I was listening to you speak, and yeah, it's like a fighter jet. As the foc is very low take F twenty two. Rafter can almost fly sideways. But a human cannot fly it. He has to have a computer to do it. It's that unstable. But you take uh k C one thirty all that it has a high weight forward as stable as can be. Probably can sit there and turn loose of it for two or three medicine talk to you it is that's the big difference, and that's one of the benefits of high foc in an era. An era is always once it leaves the boat, it's always flying. The medium that it goes through changes It flies through the air, it flies through the skin, and it flies through the audipose tissue, through the muscle, through the bone, all the way through. The animal is still flying until it comes to stop. It's flying even when it hits the dirt. As long as this movie is still flying, it's just flying through dirt now, so you have to get the concept of what it's doing. This stability carries on through the animal. This is where it really makes a difference in terminal ballistics. To have that high foc is we now have a very stable era that is much more difficult to redirect. To have hit a bone and glance off at an angle so higher we get the foc. It makes a huge difference. Now it makes no difference in the testing we have so far, makes no difference as far as penetrating a heavy bone. That depends totally on the weight of the air how long he is able to push on the bone. But once it breaches the bone, the foc comes into play, and that's where you get a huge increase in post breaching penetration the archery industry's reluctance to look at what you have. You're divorced from the industry intentionally. Um, they're coming around though, Yeah, but I mean are you how were you making your own broadheads? And like, how are you testing different setups that didn't exist if the archery industry didn't produce them. Uh. The only single bevel was out there was the Grizzly and I used a lot of and that's not what they made is different when Harry Elberd used to make um and Uh, I mean the way the different way arrows. How are you making those? I was building them up, I was waiting the eras there all sorts of different things like drilling them out and filling them and stuff. Uh. Some I feel some were double shafted eras. Uh, some internally footed eras. Uh. All sorts of ways to increase the weight on there. And uh yes, Uh in the early days, I made a lot of the uh when they weren't available, steal inserts, brass inserts, had people make them for me. Machinist. I'm lon't good enough to make them. Uh, I see, but that's what I was curious, Like so you had to be You were testing things that didn't technically not didn't exist. You were testing things that weren't available on the market, right because I was finding as I would do a test and I would say, Okay, we need to look at this, and we need to look at this. Well, this isn't available for all that out of pocket. Everybody at it, even having hardness. You get married, to have kids, uh, married twice, divorce twice. I learned what they think? What do they think about all that arrowhead buying and all that? Uh, I'm divorced twice. Probably How long did you stay married? The longest thirteen years? Yeah, yeah, the next one was three years. I got smarter factors. I just had my thirteenth anniversary. Yeah. So you were saying that the current the heavy aerosystems that you like high FOC. Can you explained FOC, but then explain the rest of the aero system? Okay, there are actually if you look on our website, we'll go through them in detail there Hunting Foundation. Yes, you can go through the twelve factors that are there. We also have all of the updates that we did through the years. Now when people start reading those and there's a lot of pages of them. They need to read the whole thing because some of the things early on that I look at the research and the data that we had in sent low, you know, it indicates it might be this, might be that. But we learned stuff as we go along and things get better and better, are better um as we as we do get more information on it, so we would find these new things that that need to be looked at. Man, that's just what we had to do. And if we had to build something, we built it. You know, it's just what you did. The hardest part was coming up with shafty no good shafts, and and the long process of every era that we've used in the study is teamed uh bear shaft team, every one of them. Because without that, that's one of the high factors is you've got to have structural integrity the era. That's the most important thing. Without that, it doesn't matter if it flies perfect, where do you hit the animal? Nothing. If that aer breaks or part of it breaks when it hits the animal, every everything's lost. You've got no control over what's happening. You're probably gonna lose an animal. Uh. And then you have to have perfect flight. Now those two things ever ever change. So you got to go through all this long tuning process for every error before you start testing it, or your testing is no good mm hmm. And then you go down through all of the other factors, and each factor they'll compound each other so that this factor has a certain percentage gain and this factor has a certain percentage gain. Well, if you've got one of them there, you've got this game. When this game kicks in, it takes in a portion of this game, so it keeps adding up as you go to more and more factors. Two, if you want to get the most out of it, you incorporate as many of the factors you can. But the important thing is that anything you do out of these factors to your error setup is gonna make it better. And you have twelve factors. Yeah, we have twelve factors in there. Can you go through some of them? If I get my note so out, I can, because we're gonna do that later today, because I'll forget all their ranking relative order. If you took in all shots together, the ranking will change under certain situations. For instance, the heavy bone threshold is right at the bottom of the list because it's not important unless you hit a heavy bone. But when you hit a heavy bone, it'll jump to the number three position. And so there is some movement in these things depending on the shot. That's why you incorporate. You don't know what's gonna happen on a shot. The animal's gonna move, it's rare. We've got a lot of video footage here in Texas shooting hogs and deer and stuff. Uh compounds, fast compounds, slow compounds, traditional bones, so forth. We don't have a video of an animal that does not move before the air gets there. And most of these yards m hm. So if you look at it in slow motion, the animals in motion, in motion, in motion, in response to the bow noise. Yes, and most of the time it's a duck and roll away. Duck can roll away from the source of the north from the source, but not always. Sometimes they'll completely reverse only sometimes they'll actually turn into it. But there's always some movement going on in there. Really, there's not a single video of an animal not reacting at all. Now, only times I've ever seen animals not react at all to the shot was on a very long range shot. That's all been small game varmint shooting, varmint calling that kind of stuff, uh where they might not hear, but we were going to do more. I've done a little bit of research looking at air noise, and you can quiet down an air a lot by different types of fletching. And we've worked out of fletching that we call an A and a fleshing very small triangular shape. It will only work with very high foc aras the higher you've got the foc you now have a long rear steering arm on the air, so it does not take much fletching to overcome the wind share of the broad head. It's way you bear shaft tuned. If it shoots perfectly, bear shafted, and then you put your broad head on there. The only fletching you need is enough to overcome the wind share under all wind conditions. So I tune that fleshing just like I would anything else that I put the broad head that this era is going to be used with, and then I see how small I can go in that fletching before I get unstable flight, and I go back up slightly. We actually use the thing called a turbulator, which is a little pin stripe thing that goes around in front of the feathers out a quarter of an inch. Feathers do work better than veins because they've they've got higher drag and they're lighter. Gives us higher foc The turbulator disrupts the laminar flow down the air shaft, which creates increased pressure, just like wood on an airplane. They use turbulators on airplanes too, uh, which will increase the pressure on the small reflection and that has a much lower sound effect. So we're gonna do a lot more research for that. That's coming up. Because you think they're responding to the sound of the approaching arrow or through to take a big fletch and shoot it a rabbit at about eighty yards, watching perk up and move where the arrogance there? Oh, here's it coming. Yeah, So you don't sound too dissimilar from a that's true and very similar yep, and and so big fleshing it. Now. When I first started hunting and it started into this research, he I had to use really large feathers because I realized that at close range I had to get my air out of paradox to get the penetration up. Because I could shoot animals at yards a lot more penetration that if I shot him in seven or eight yards, that's the paradox. The era is flexing, So you have archer's paradox, and let me give it a shot and then you can correct me. But basically as that your bowstring starts to push your arrow. The arrow doesn't immediately start moving at first flexus. Your arrow does this as it's coming out of your boat, like it bends in the sideways, um, you know, a half moon arc arc, and then as it leaves it does that the other direction, and then the other direction, and eventually it straightens out and then flies completely straight. But the paradox is that it's not that you think the closer it is the better. Well, the original paradox so weren't center shot bows, was that in order to hit the target, it has to bend around the boat. It has to not be pointed at the target. But that's not a paradox, well it is. It's paradox that you don't point at it to be able to hit it. Ah, there's the paradise. I was trying to figure out where the paradox is. I thought the paradox was you think really close is better. No, no, no, it's actually the fact that on an tradtional bow that you know, and in some of the boats I used, have no self for that reason, let me use lighter air shafts. When I was trying to get it high officially, and the arrows pointed off like this to shoot out there, I guess the rifleman's paradox would be that if you're shooting at something at point blank range, you'd have to account for the fact that you're cross there is an inch and a half higher than you're essentially and a half that's right. You'd have the line of sight and the board access and somewhere out there they're gonna cross, and they're gonna cross again. I'm gonna douve the rifleman's paradox trademarking because a lot of people don't know are there's paradox. We also call it shot flex. Yeah, and you get it again on impact. Now it's hit, the front of the air has slowed down and the back of the air is still trying to push it forward. Now, one of the things we found with the higher fo cs is that they come out of paradox and you shoot it much faster. Because it's lighter at the back end, and when you hit the animal, most of the weight is up front. You've got a very stiff forward leaver arm and the back of the shaft is very light. And because it's very light, it doesn't push his hard, it doesn't flex as much, and it stops flexing much faster. So that helps you get increased penetration because when that's flexing going through the wound channel, just having to push tissue every time it bends and goes through a bone. Same thing he's trying to push against that moan and that slows it down. Now, there's a couple of things you can do to see that really easy. Uh. You can take a dowe rod long your four or five ft drill. You a hole on the board and put it in there and get a rubber ball. Put the rubber ball away at the back end and pull it over the side and watch it go. There's like a metronome. Takes forever to stop. Move it down about halfway, which you're a little more than halfway like most eras are. No, you can go a long time. Put it right down against the board and stops. The same thing happens with an era. Now you can do that with ashual eras by drilling up pretty good sized holes, say five eighths of an inch or something, and take two errors, one with a normal foc, one with a high effles, very high effles. Put it in there so there is identical except for the foc, same chef, size, everything about it. Pull it over to the side and turn it loose. Time it with a stopwatch to drop through the hole. Now take the high foc when it goes take a take a tu m hm. Same things happen when it goes to the bone or a hole in the bone. Once you've placed to hold through there, they're very easy to see. You guys even use a Doppler radar when you're doing research. Yes, yes, we we have. Well, Daryl's got one, so now we've got three. The foundation is about too, and we've got a high speed camera on the way. You might be here by now where I'll just home. We'll find out where we can u a genuine high speed camera, not a regular camera that's you know, shooting three or four hundred frames whatever, This is three thousand frames a second. Well, how does the how does the what do you do with the Doppler radar. Uh. It works like any other chronograph, but it will read the ERA at at whatever range does you want to set it for. So this reading is goes out so you can shoot one ara by it and you can read the launch velocity. You can read it at five yards ten yards fifty out to where it will no longer pick it up. Well, it'll pick these Doppler radar like that. We'll pick up a thirty caliber rifle bullet out to about seven yard words, so let'll take up an ERA a long way out there. And we've just started started doing some testing with those. Are you able to test it coming in and going out with something? That's why we're trying to work out a system to do That's one of you've got multiple level because you're gonna have to have one to read it going in and one to read it coming out because the animals going to be in the way. So we're trying to work out a system to do that. Uh. So Darryl and Troy are working on that now, trying to come up with a methodology and uh having Darryl with us, who's a true I mean calling the rocket man, he's true rocket scientists work for the government. All these worked on rail guns and uh uh tank penetrating projectiles and uh cruise missiles and all this kind of stuff that you know for years. So he's very much into both terminal ballistics, but more so probably into flight ballistics. Are you gonna hit us with the twelve factors? Oh? I was, yeah, I will, Okay. The very first one to the first four are are really ones about the only ones I remember on the top of my head. The structural integrity was talked about, which is an absolutely must have. That's gonna always be number one. The second one is going to be the air of flight. I talked about perfect air of flight. You're going to have to have that. The next most important overall is the extreme foc that's percentage wise going to give you the biggest gain in penetration through soft tissues, postmone breaching, so forth. The next one is the mechanical advantage of the Broadhead. Now Broadhead has it's inclined planes. It's a series of inclined planes on most Broadhead song got some other weird stuff stuck on. But the longer and narrower it is, the higher the mechanical advantage is. And you can think of it like wheelchair ramps. Wheelchair ramps are low and gradual because it's easier to move a load from here to there. It will do more work with the same applied force. That's what mechanical advantage is. So if we get a broad head that is a true three to one mechanical advantage, it will take the force of the era and multiplied by factor of three, and if it's two to one, you're multiplying it by a factor of two. A lot of broadheads are way down there, bow one on some of them, so you're actually losing force from the mechanical advantage of the broadhead. What's the shittiest broadhead being sold out there? Most mechanicals, most mechanical, most mechanicals, Yeah, because those things got some If I had my druthers, I just just going by what you're saying. They have a very low with their deploy that a very low mechanics and also the force of deployment. And we also have gauges that were now starting to use that, and we use it in some of our demonstrations of letting people take their own broadheads and and bring a hide and let them push it through there. And we've actually got a gauge you can put on there and you can see the force required to push it through the hide. There's a thing called a trap pan trap Pantenson gauge. This essentially it's pressed down and measure your pay attention and it's it's really uh graphic because we have had people with heads that with all the force they could use, could not push them through the hide, and then they take a good cut on contact a chisel tip, I guess is is what's Yeah, A lot of the chisel tips are tough like that are the calm tips Okay, hard to push through, very hard to push through. Uh, And a lot of the mechanicals very hard to push through. Got very that blind angle even when you get the front part through trying to get him to deploy and then trying to get them through there, and it takes almost no force. With a good high mechanical advantage cut on contact broadhead is sharp. You just push through one finger, it's no problem. And all of that force that you say there of the era is forced you can apply to more penetration. So you want to get through all the tissues with the leash resistance you can which is basically what we do with all the factors. We're looking to maximize the force that the air carries with withever factors in there. I want to get back to that list, but I just have but I have one to go ahead, Go ahead, you've gotten a bunch of ince. I think you can let me have one, because can you tell the story about or because you talk about penetration, some people are gonna say, well, at what point is it too much? Because if I go through you both sides, that's enough. But I read something where you were saying that, no, it's definitely better because of what the was it the Royal Academy of veter Science. Yeah, and in Great Britain. Uh, they actually did some research for what reason, I don't know own errors. I never did figure that out. But if the shaft remains in, it impedes the hemorrhaging. If it stays in and the animal is moving, it impedes even more the hemorrhaging. But if it goes completely through, the shaft is out and the hemorrhaging is freer. And one of the one of the things try for yourself. Get your zip block bag gallon size three quarters full of water, get you some barbecue skewers going, stick the skewers through. Look at the leak that's coming out. You know, start first, just stick on one side, stick it on one side, then push them all the way through, both sides still in there. Now pull the two out and watch what happens. This is essentially what happened if you go talk to any emergency room that hershing or leaking both. Yeah, because like for blood trailing, Yeah, for blood trailing, I can see it's having Yeah, we notice it like it's like it could still be bleeding internally. It's not doing you any good on the ground. Don't having the projectile in there impedes bleeding any just responders, emergency room physician. If you have an embedded object, the first thing they're gonna tell you do is not removed. It should not really removed until you have that patient in a setting where you can control the increased hemorrhay gene that's going to occur when you remove that. And that's exactly what it'll say. You didn't look that one up on internet. That's easy to find, yeah, even internet. Yeah, yeah, Plus you you know, if the error is gone completely through, it's now you have sucking, chest wound, collapse lungs. What do you do when you've got somebody that does have a penetrate shop with a bullet, what do you do? You put a seal over there. You don't want to collapse that lung. They've got to have that seal to be able to breathe. So that's not what we will. We want him to die. We're not trying to keep him alive. So you want that error to exit completely. And if they people talk about airror staying in and moving around and causing all these lacerations and stuff, if it goes for enough stick on the other side, it's not gonna move around much. But even if it's in there, if they will dissect that animal, you don't see a lot of that laceration. It doesn't happen. The tissues hold it firm enough. And why we're talking about very mobile tissues. Lungs are very mobile, much like intestines and stuff. You know they'll move because I think that's something if you look at people have sort of accepted that, Yeah, if you're broad as this at least in there and the animals running around, it's moving and cutting and it's good it is not there. If you dissect animals, you don't do don't see this massive laceration. It's like in our head we think it's doing that. Oh yeah, you see the man that's gotta be cutting. Well he's moving too, but the tissue is holding it and so it's just going this, just staying straight, not cutting. So it's just not there. That's why I wish I could get people to to dissect animals and look at it, and they would start to learn some of this stuff. But most people don't do it and got the animal and get out of here, you know, and they very rarely looked at. Gun Hunters need to do that too, get an idea how their bullets performed with a lot of crappy bullets on the market too. I did a lot of terminal ballistic research for Barnes bullets too, so I got quite a background and in doing terminal bullists. Uh but any him, we're on our list. Well okay, uh, well we're all mechanical advantage. But one of the things that people don't look at also is it's your edge. Bevel has a mechanical advantage. This is also an incline plane. If you've got a double bevel. It's like that the most commons back up a little bit because I think already we've probably maybe lost some listeners just to explain, like the bevel and this angle, and and just like back it up to just one oh one. So we were dude off of knife blades and razor blades. Basically, most most double bevel broadheads how much like a knife blade. Most common angle is the same on both of them's twenty five degrees on each side. You now have a fifty degree cutting angle. When you get to a single bevel, one side is flat, you've got a bevel on the other. Now we've got some out there with twenty degrees. Now we're we're testing some of those in Africa right now to see if that'll hold up at twenty Now. I worked originally the gritties. I god had about thirty five degree I think, and I worked from different bevels, working them down, and the lowest I can get to is twenty five. Below twenty five the steel wasn't strong enough. It starts to roll the edge, So that was as slow as low as you get. But those when you get to twenty five degree bevel, you've got to see row in twenty five. It is now twice as thin as a double bevel broadhead. It's mechanical advantage is twice as high. Now what does that mean for you? Okay, a blood vessel is touching it with the same amount of pressure between the two edges. The single bevel, it's going to slice twice as deep or twice as easily, whichever you want to look at it as that double bevel. Because it has a higher mechanical advantage. It does more work with the same applied pressure. By definition, that's what mechanically managed does. But you have to have steel of a good enough quality for that edge to hold up. That's why a real premium single bevel head. You know, our hundred plus dollars for three heads, but as you can at least reuse them. Look at the price of UH five N express rifle cartridge. Now have four dollars a box of twenty. You know, the broadhead is going to be one of the least expensive things of your hunt. So it's old ara set up, you know, and white people scrimp on the one thing that's going to come in contact with the animal. I have never understood, but they do it. But Basically, that's where mechanical advance and it's just come in. I hope that's clear enough you understand it. The people, most people really overlook the mechanical advantage of the edge bettle. It's a big one. And another thing is that we've talked about why I would guess that right now, if we looked at just picked a random ten arrowheads on the Internet, that the edge bevel the angle might not even be listed under the specific most of the times not It's probably not even a thing that people even think about. But that's something we tracked, and in the study, we tracked the edge babble of every if it's got six blades, we're gonna have the edge battle of all six blades listed there. You know, if it's got bleeder blades, four blade blader blades, sometimes they have different angles ground on them. So we've got that all track. And that's one of the factors you can look at. It's a's what difference does it make? And the one thing that we found when we were looking at single babble versus double bebble in absolute identical profile broadheads on the same error that up is that the single bevels will give you more penetration both in soft tissue and drastically so in bone. Huge difference in bone because the rotating single bevel will pop the bone. I think that we should, uh, you should explain the how a single bevel uh like makes itself when it hits an animal and bones when it when it's flat on one side. Okay, well we'll put the bevel over here. If it's flat on one side and beveled on the other, when you apply pressure to this side as it goes through something, there's no pressure on this side, and it castes the rotation. There you go. He's got a big old plastic broadhead, but he's got a left bevel. That's all right. Uh, it's going to press here but not here. And it's going to press here but not here. When he says press here, he's pointing at the bevel of the broadhead, not the flat edge. Yes, the torque generated is going to be proportional to the amount if you go talking about a bone, the amount of surface area of the bevel in contact with the bone or any given time. Now, there's also going to be a differential by how wide the broadhead is. When you get a very wide broadhead. You're putting a lot more stress on the edge at any given bevel angle because you've got a longer leaver arm coming out here torking. So it's going to be more likely to roll that edge or chipped the hedge or whatever it's going to do. Now, if it's got to do one or the other, you want to chip rather than roll. A chipped steel blade is a whole lot sharper than a rolled edge rolled edge, and you can saw your hand with it. It's not gonna cut anything, but that's where you get the torking effect. When you have a double bevel, you got even pressure on both sides. When they hit a bone, it has to push its waist straight through. Now, with a high speed camera, we're gonna find out just how far it goes into the bone before it pops it with that torque. M hmm. Yeah, I think it's happening very quickly. I don't know that, but we're going to find out. Can I tell you something. I was reading the thing one time where a guy was just you holding that thing, the single bevel, talking about that. I was reading a thing where a guy was writing a paper on what he believed the prevalency of left handedness was among Folsome hunters, based on resharpened Falsome point that they assumed we're hafted, and that he was working with his left holding the half of his right hand and working with the left, and I think they found that they were had a higher prevalency of I think this guy suggests I had a higher prevalency of left handedness at least a months on the hunters believe people. It's interesting anyway, that gives you a good idea what we're talking about with the torqu generator. What number one right now? Uh, we're still number four mechanical advantage. Oh you got all that rolled under mechanical advantage. That's like ABC. Well it's not necessarily with the torque that would come down generaly further where we talked about the type of edge babbove But okay, five, it's the shaft diameter to feral diameter ratio right there, because chaft goes into the broadhead. If it's like this, smaller, you gain about ten penetration as opposed to be even if the shaft is bigger, you lose penetration. What he's sawing about about is the the drag. Yeah, like if you run your hand from a aft downe of the broadhad, you definitely don't want it to drop off at the broadhead. Well that's further down the list too, But yes, broadhead profile error profile is important. But that's the important one to have right there, and we're going to do more research on. But in what the data we have now, it doesn't seem to increase very much in penetration once you're about five smaller than the broadhead feral hm. But we've got a lot more skinny shafts to work with now, so we may code with something new as we do the newer testing and and find out that okay, going down, the more you might gain some more penetration. And why why I'm guessing is just that the broadhead has created a bigger channel than the arrow needs to go just pure drag. If if you look at this coming down and having to bump up over an errow shaft, now it's going to have more pressure against this tissue and shaft profiles on there too. As we look at shaft profiles. If you have a barrel taper shaft, then you can go and buy a barrel tapertechularly in wood ares and traditional areas. Yes, they're very common and being used for centuries and for various things. But it'll it'll be on one diameter here then gets bigger towards the metal than tapers at the back. Those will have the lowest penetration. If you took identical eras for everything's up the shaft profile, same weight, same broad head, shopping the same bowl, shoot each one fifty times and and look at the averages, You're you're going to lose u significant amount of penetration. The highest penetrating is the taper shaft. The taper shaft, the further it gets in in the drag of the shaft drops. Now you have to remember too when it's why you can't. I haven't been able to find artificial mediums that worked well because you're shooting that era through a blood in an animal, through a blood suffused environment, which lubricates you. You know how slick blood is, you had blood on your hands, Try to hold your knife handle when you're gutting an animal, and it actually has a lubricating effect, which is another reason we do our testing. Within thirty minutes of putting the animal down. Not only for changing the tissue rigged mortis, but blood will start to coagulate. You no longer have a bleeding when you shoot them. When they're fresh put down, you still have some blood coming out of the tissues you have. You guys into a guy that sent in this thing about how he was in a He has a cadaver lab, or was in a cadaver lab. Human cadaver lab. They pump beef blood through cadavers to keep them. I don't know, yeah, freshened up. You could apply that you started. He's a lab guy there. I do feel stuff. They even do it at tempt so they use souvied warm beef blood and roll it through cadavers, keeping and fresh. He's making note that transfer knowledge, transfer a knowledge right there, if the rifleman's paradox doesn't work out, yelled Pat, and that okay, what number you know? Okay? With number six? Aerra masks the physical airra weight, and that's a real simple one from physics. The heavy or something is the longer it takes to stop period and as all, it will also gave more energy from your boat. I don't care what kind of boat you shoot. If you put a heavier air on there. It's going to happen. It won't be big, but it's going to have an increase in kinetic energy transfer, which is the proper use of kinetic energy, not what the ARA does from the bow into the era, because all of the noise and the sound of the vibration you get with a light era, the heavier area you go to, the more it diminishes. Now I haven't gone all. I've gone up to about six grain eras, and it's still showing that you're still seeing a small kinetic energy gain as you go to the heavier eras. Out of any given boat, compound recurves long bows, doesn't matter, works with all of them, and that ERA mass is going to carry this additional force that it has received from the bowl. And what we're doing with all these factors is trying to maximize the conservation of this force the era has derived from the bow to be able to apply it to the animal when it hit. Because this is the endpoint. This is what really matters, is the terminal ballistics. And you know, kinetic energy tells you how hard something it um, It doesn't tell you the forward motion of it. It doesn't kinnectic energy doesn't have a direction. Sound is kinetic energy. Vibration, the shaft is the wiggling of the shaft, the resistance of it against the air, the paradox. These are all part of kinetic energy. They have nothing to do with penetration, because penetration is directional force, and that's what you get with momentum. Momentum does have a direction, and momentum has to be met by an equal force of resistance before it stops. So the more momentum you can put into that era, which is mass times velocity, not velocity squared, and not all of the momentum is force, penetration is concern works out equal. The more of that momentum that is invested in the mass of the era, the more outcome penetration you're going to have. Because the mass of the air is not going to change, the velocity is going to decreases, it penetrates, but a significant portion of that momentum is invested in the weight of the air, and that weight of the error is going to carry all the way till it stops. So even as that slows down, is still carrying more momentum right up to the end, and that's why a bowling ball carries a lot more momentum than baseball's next one. Yeah. Now, if you're talking connectic energy is one of my things I get off on because there are places that have applied kinnectic energy as a standard for hunting animals and it is not aptical. I'm sorry, it does not apply to take a baseball picture. That get a Major League baseball picture in pitch ninety six miles an hour with a softball. If you look at the laws, they where they applied it to Cape Buffalo, that's legal hunt Cape Buffalo with that's enough kinetic energy. They don't penetrate worth a damn on a Cape Buffalo. It'll make him real mad and probably get your pounder in the ground. Oh, I got what you're saying. You're saying that kinetic energy picture could take a baseball and get the right amount of Connecticut more than enough. He's legal. He's legal, he's illegal. I got what you're saying. Yeah, And that's one of the things the industry has applied for years. Because that have speed cell, they push kinetic energy because okay, we get this error going faster, we've got more kinetic energy. Wow. And Okay, you need this amount of kinetic energy. Now, look at all the things where you can see on the internet where they tell you you need this much kinetic energy for hunting amount an elk, and this much front to deer, this much fronting the black bear. Show me. One that tells you is that launch connetic energy or kinetic energy to impact? Nobody ever says down our study, we tracked the momentum and the connectic energy at impact as well as it launch. It's the impact one that counts, and that's one thing that that heavier error is going to carry out. There is that increased momentum to give you the penetration you need. And that's why eerroweights imported. Next factor seven we're up for seven now is the edge finish. We did some testing where we took multiple layers of fresh buffalo hide, which is about an inch thick. Talking like buffalo buffalo, Asian buffalo. Any of the buffalo Asian buffalo actually have a heavier hide across the shoulders and chest area. Then they're actually a tougher animal. In kate buffalo, bigger, bigger heart by full kg. But we made multiple layers of this and took a series of errors, and we we sharpened them by different methods. You're talking like you was taking green high, green high, fresh green high and sandwiching them, sandwiched them together, hung them up truck to pull them up. I mean they're heavy, and we would shoot them with these ferrets with the edge sharpened by different methods. And then we compared for each era individually. It's performance against itself with a different edge finish. And the worst edge is the old Howard Hills serrated edge where you take a file and drag it back across the broad head and you make all these little look like salt teeth. Run the file lately down wants to make a point forward because the first thing it does is load up with tissue and then it won't cut nothing, nothing at all. File sharpened edges were better, but they still do the same thing. My christophey, that they've still got I don't care how smooth you file it. It's still got these little rough areas if you look at it, their high magnification, and they do the same thing. They load up with fibers and they get dull a honed and stopped edge as thin and smooth and sharp as you can get it is your best edge, the thinnest so forth for that mechanical advantage we're talking about earlier, but honed and stropped where it is just there's not a rough place on it, not catching anything, not catching it. And actually once you get good at sharpening, as you get them that that finish, they actually feel less sharp. They're so smart they no longer will great gripped your tissue, so they don't they feel like they actually start dulling, but they're not. They're actually getting sharper. And you know, on the testing we sharpened every broadhead to that honed and stripped left. Otherwise the testing is not not valid. Now some broad heads that come in the package and say they're already factory sharp, well, we'll dress them that way, but then when we have to redo them, we'll have to sharp them. And you know, and see what they do. That one you see fishhooks. The advertise is chemically sharpened. Oh yeah, you get all sorts of stuff. Would you always buy that, man, I'm like, well that must be prete damn sharp. Yeah. Would you say that most broadheads coming out of the package are sharp enough? No, very few in the world are sharpened, But there are a couple. There are a couple that are sharp enough, but not many. And you like them spit shined you leathers drop them? Oh yeah, well not just. I use a horse hide strap, which is probably the best leather strop you can get the rump the rump hide off the horse years ago. That used to be one leather. Yep, there's only one factory in the world that makes it. A leather is definitionally horse hide rump yep. Yep, no ship, only one place. The one factory in the world makes it in Chicago. It's the toughest leather in the world. And and I used uh, I used double sided and and one one side is uh finished with. I put polishing compoundering sixty tho grid and the other side has nothing on it. It's just the hide sixty grid sixty thou grid. But the other side that has nothing on it has been sanded down with ten thousand grid sandpaper to poloshy so that it's just a hard polished surface. And that punches some buffalo hide that'll punch through some buffs with with incredible difference in the penetration that you had. But it was consistent with every error. It didn't matter. For it's a three blade, four blade, whatever kind of head we used, the hone is dropped always penetrated the most, The file sharpened always was second, and the hill ones were always last. With all these different kinds of broad heads and different errors and different weight errors, but every error is compared only back to self, not to all the other errors. So it was strictly sharpening method that made the difference in penetration. I got a problem right now. So we're on seven. This is great, and I want to open up a real can of worms. But I want you to I want you to not take de bait too much. So like set a timer because we were going to get into this heavy duty but we're not gonna be able to work. I'm too I like the list too much. Now. Yanni was mentioned to me. I didn't know this. He was mentioned to me that you've spent time in Papua New Guinea. Yes, research and arrows. Yes. And I just want to bring up one anecdote, Okay, I just want you to very quickly address um ancestral archery technology real quick. And the anecdote is this, you know the guy we bought rush off of. Yeah, Alex that one of the tsars his kid. I think it was his twenty second birthday in eighteen seventy one, seventy two, his kid came out and went on a buffalo hunt with Custer Yeah, and wild Bill Cody. Afterward. I believe it was a I can't mamber if you Cheyenne. The guy went out rode up alongside of buffalo bison, not a buffalo. Yeah, I know. Okay, But if I said I was going and if I said I was going to antelope hunting and Wyoming, would you be like, boy, I'm very confused right now, or would you know what I was talking about? Buffalo gets to be a very contentious terms about buffalo testing, they think, But I'm using it extremely intentionally. Uh What was I getting at Buffalo? He wrote up beside it and shotty, oh yeah, I once. Here's the funny store. I'll tell you real quick. When I was doing some research one time, and I was with these guys from the Buffalo Field Campaign, Okay, and these are like activists who were working to prevent state slaughter of bison leaving Yelsto National Park, but their organizations called the Buffalo Field Campaign. I'm standing there with the guy from the Buffalo Field campaign, and here comes the pronghorn running by, and I say, oh, there's an antelope. He goes, that's actually a prong horn. Yes, And I'm like, here, organizations named wrong, there's like popular terminology, right. So a bison, the American bison, the American bison punches, uh, punches a nail right through it and then presents the arrow. So pass through shop presents the arrow to whatever his name was, okay, and brings it home. Um. In your research of the planes bow archery tackle used in Papua New Guinea, Clovis points, have you found um different cultures that had uh? Have you found evidence of different cultures that accidentally or intentionally we're applying things that you're now impressed by? Have you found cultures that, man, how did they not realize? I think a lot of this stuff was known probably thousands of years ago, and we've lost We're just rediscovering what people need. If you look at Japanese eras, uh, you look at Chinese eras, these were high foc eras. Look at the medieval war eras, high foc eras, high mass. This stuff has been used all all around New Guineas, and not just because the limitations of the materials like evidence that there was like intentionally like could have been different, but was intentionally the The perfect example is New Guinea of intentional because I examined archery equipment that was pre World War Two, no steel available. The points are made of hardwood. The bowls were made of black palm. These are beautiful, graceful bowls would not look out of place at a at a primitive archery shoot now today. And the air shafts were much like we would think of the diameter of an air shaft, and the wooden points are quite long, made out of hardwood, but these eras were uh. I think the lowest that I measured was about which should be altered. Extreme f o z going up into the World War two comes along and all of a sudden, there's rebar. There're steel now. All the points are made out of steel. They're huge, looks like a spear. Well in order to use them, they had to go to a big cane shaft. They make these things. You know, they're five and a half six ft long, these eras. But even with that big shaft, these points weigh so much and we're talking to the light. Errors are on up three thousand and thirty five grains and go up, you know, well above four thousand grain eras. They couldn't get it to tune. And they actually tune their eras just like we do when we bear shaft, the same process off of their traditional bows. So what do they do? They change their entire bow. It is no longer you know, long um beautiful black palm. It is now seven and a half feet long. It's made out of bamboo. It's about that wide. Why is it that wide? If you put that era way over here, paradox that chaft can be in an old lot more in tune around to straight flight. But they build these heavy aras, no two errors alike, because they're just hammering them out. But they'll get up there and shoot that era and do just like we do. They'll keep shortening that shaft until it shoots straight. Now, they don't use any fletching, but there foc on the post World War two eras is even heavier. Most of those are above foc That's why I didn't get away with shooting them with no fletching whatsoever. Plus the factor not going very fast, which decreases the wind shear on the on the broadhead. Uh. I didn't have any way to measure the velocity. I didn't have a chronograph there or anything like that. And the bows both the pre World War two post World War two. Uh, they said the pre World War two bowls were about as heavy. And just pulling it, I would say it's in the eighty pound range is the typical boat um And the velocity I was the specter is less than a hundred feet per second m hm. And they consider out to twenty five meters good shooting range. And these guys are deadly with him. What are they hunting? Roosa deer and pigs? Those are the two commons. Roosa deer live out in bald open country floodplains. The only stalking youn do is just the role of the ground. And for whatever reason, they generally stalk three guys at a time, but only one shoots. And I watched them went out with one hunt and watched them from distance with the blocktors, I probably wouldn't get enough stalker to stay with them. And uh, they it's about a twenty five yards shot the guy took. Now, they traditionally carry three eras all three will be different and a blunt. And he took his heaviest era, which was about grains, is the one he chose to shoot, and plump drives this big head all the way sticking out the other side of the atom. Of course, the shaft is great, big. It stops at the shaft but points long enough it's coming out to the other side of the rooster. Dear. Yeah, when and when docs saying the points long, he's like showing, yeah, the short ones will be about a foot. Wellmber, those boys in Guyana when they had the like the tape year points yeah, I mean it's like, I don't know, eleven twelve inches of hammered thin steel. And I asked the guy. He had the best answer I've ever heard. I asked him he was one of the few that spoke in English, and why he chose that are out of his three because he was the heaviest area he had and the best answers there was works best all right, Number eight, Okay, the shaft profile, we actually touched him. We've talked about the parallel shaft, the taper shaft, and the barrel taper shaft. That's what we're looking at. Their Then the taper shaft works the best parallel shaft as long as it's not bigger than the farrel works really well. It's probably the standard most people would go by. And the barrel taper shaft is definitely the worst, no question about it. And uh oh yeah, that's enough on that one. Then we talked about the broad head and an air of silhouette, and we touched on that too. You want the smoothest transition you can get. You don't want any lumps, bumps, spot wells, uh trash, abrupt transitions and stealth bomber other than the step down you might get just back of the farrel to the shaft. You do not want a bump on that era if you can avoid it. Sometimes you can't avoid it, like put that old turbulator on there. But that's a little We actually used model airplane pin stripe that's about six minute wide, no maybe even smaller than that, very narrow, just enough to disrupt that lambent or airflow. You remember, remember delta broadheads from a long time ago. I have a deer skull that's got one of those rattling around inside the dad shot in the shot the deer in the forehead, um it has serrated bleeders, so it's got double beveled. But then they would put little bleeders there and the bleeders are serrated. Uh, you don't like that profile because that's that's a double sin, right said. So it made it past that because they had a heck of a bump. Yeah no, it's it's rattling around and it's awesome. Yeah, Well, I prob they had They knew where a deer was feeding alongside a road and it was very accustomed to vehicular traffic. So he had his friend. He opened the door on a van and he had his friend drive very slowly. He rolled out of the moving van with the with the re curve, and then that dud would just watched cars go by. And he rolled out of the van while I was moving, rolls up and shot and she like took notice something she had swung her head around. It punched right in the forehead. So I gotta hang it on my wall with that thing. Guy. Only other guy in my county that but one beside me shot one in the forehead, did not get it. It ran off for the air across fifty yards open field by a unicorn. That does that does a lot of good for pr Can you can you touch on I guess while we're talking about bleeder blades, just why I guess I can tell you why people think they're good right because it gives you, like another access of a cut. There's more things they have lost, the premise of it. I had. I had the honor of actually hunting with Fred there. I heard him tell list around the campfire. I had lunch with him and yeah, nice guy Acroan Ohio. He uh. He said that the bleeder, the original bleeder blade if you've seen the original bear razor heads were made out of that hard blue carbon steel. He said. The purpose of that is as soon as it hits a hard surface like a bone, its shatters, then the broad hid can carry on like a normal single blade broadhead is only to open a bigger hole in the soft tissue to reduce the drag of the shaft. Where you hoping, Fred Bear, he came to the least that Bob Lee had Uh sod Ben Pierson, Yeah, I gotta be good, pretty good friends with Ben Pierson. I picked up a lot of valuable shooting information from him. So the blades just got misnamed. Well, no, people said oh, these blades break off and they leave blades in the meat, and somebody made eat them. So they started to make him out of stuff that would ben and then destroyed the whole inceptive at working. Now I just increase error drag and you just ruined your penetration. But that wasn't the intent when Fred Bare designed him. He had the design right, if you're gonna use a bleeder blade, that's the one you want. And so bleeder blades they're advertised or put onto broadheads. Now they're just reducing your drag. But they've been pretty easy, most of them, because the very thing instead of breaking shattering like the original bleeder blades on the bear razor head, they've been once you could be in like that tiny tip Ben, when we're talking about just they I mean almost as small you can hardly see it. That's looses of the penetration. Just that little band. And what's the band of any kind gonna do. It's going to read that direct the path of that era. What's that gonna do? The shaft, Now, the shaft has got to try to make this be in pushing all that tissue, it just kills your penetration. It just doesn't work at all. That's why structural integrity is the number one thing. Okay, we're down number ten, which we've already touched on, is going through the type of edge bevel through soft tissue. I thought that was earlier on the thing. No, we just got off on it because we were talking about edge thickness and stuff. That's why don't remember me saying I thought you you described for like it was for A, B and C. No, it is just we we just got off on it. So way down to number ten, the type of edge bevel you do get an increase in penetration. And we used it with different profiles, broadheads, identical identical error set ups. You know, compared double bevel to single bevel, you get an increase in penetration even a soft tissue with a single bevel. And this was one of the things in the testing that had a hundred percent frequency. It happened every time and looking at no matter what you hit, yeah with well a soft tissue with bone, it's even more start because the single bevel torqus and pops that bone. You get a massive increase in average penetration. Are mean or media median or minimum, you know, any any of the factors you want to take out maximum penetration on every area. You can look at that, you know, full graph, compare any of them back and forth. You always have a higher percentage of penetration with a single vel, and it was frequency in the testing. So it is important, particularly on bone though, that's where it makes the biggest difference, and a lot of that is the higher mechanical advantage of the edge less resistance. Going through slice is easier, it is more work. Was he applied force? It penetrates more, just as simple physics, No, nothing magic about it. I want to remember how we wedge that traditional bit in between whatever, like eight and nine. I want to wedge something in here. Okay, talk about um. Apparently you're talking to Yanni about this about shooting animals and propping them up and shooting them. Yeah, that's the way we did most of the testing on freshy, cold animals. You put the animal down, you got thirty minutes. So this is just so again, let's bring it back to like the beginning. This is like when you talk about the study. This is the study. This isn't like the last you were because earlier you said, oh, the last six hundred animals that have come in. Those animals are separate database, and we used the hunted animals as a cross reference. Are we seeing the same thing that the setup shots on these fresh down day animals are indicating? And yes we did. So this was this was what you called the the tallest study. No, the tall study is where it started with. And those were actually hunted animals. So then you went to a place where, like explained, because we still I don't think anybody knows exactly like when the study happened, what it was, where you were, what the animals were. All I said at the time I got through with it a tall study, I had more questions than I did going in, and so I said, okay, you know, I want to carry on with this. And so I would do as many autopsies on animals as I could. I made several trips back and forth Africa. But then it really kicked up when I retired, and the first four years I was over there, I spent at least three hundred days a year hunting. Now that was either guiding or which I didn't do a lot of are are hunting on my own, shooting animals, and UH would do buffalo whenever we could, like probably we'd go into Mozambie can do the buffalo over there, uh and collect as much dat as we possibly could. Then after I got thrown out of Zimbabwe when they kicked all the Americans out uh that weren't didn't have permanent residency, I came back to the state's regroup and went down to Australia and spent time in Australia, New Zealand and New Guinea, all that area down there. But through contacts I ran in a guy he used to be the chief game ranger up in Kacadoo Park uh and Australia of the Northern Territory. He shot who knows, thirty forty thousand buffalo you know, back when they're trying to eradicate because they're like a nine native. Yeah, so they were for years tried to eradicate him and his his son is still one of the park rangers there, probably thirty forty of them. And because they out him from everything, cars, helicopters, boats, anywhere, they could shoot him of any any buffalo you saw you shot, uh, And we're not able to knock the population down. So after he retired, he talked the government of the Fishing Game Department into establishing a study where he fenced in I don't know, it's about seven miles by seven miles high fence. Uh And he's trying to determine the carrying capacity without damaging the habitat for the buffalo and he has to take about five hundred a year off two keep the population at a level that won't damage the habitat, or at least they think it's not gonna damage it. And uh so I got and and and he's sort of a reclusive don't take to everybody and think I'll live in the middle of nowhere. He's really in the middle of nowhere. And uh we just hit it off. And he used to do a lot of testing while he's calling all these animals for Woodley bullets because he's got a huge collection of firearms, a lot of double rifles, British shotguns. Oh, I mean, he's got a literally see container full of them. And uh so, I you know, when I went up there and met him through through a client that I had guided in Australia that knew it, and uh we we hit it off. And he said, you know, yeah, listen let's come on up and said when when we're shooting buffalo year around, said, come up and we'll you know, we'll shoot the buffalo. We'll set up you know, when you can test your arabs on him. And he thought it was fascinating. So the other guys work for the park there, the other game rangers, and had a lot of them come out and watch. They were absolutely fascinating what we're doing with eras. And uh so I would go up there three months a year and we would do as many buffaloes as we could do. And I could do because of all the stuff you got to do, the record keeping, the reaching a broad heads, the building of new error setups and things you want to test the most I can do with one buffalo every three days and and get done. Uh. And we would go out and he would get on the four wheel er. I would follow him and and uh, we find a buffalo, will cary all the gear with us, and he'd shoot the buffalo, put it down usually head shot, next shot something like that. We get there, prop it up, do our shooting, and then collect all of our data. And then I would go back and you know, do die and carry parts of it back to dissect and uh, we're had error stuck in the bones and stuff like that, and and uh that I'd write all the recordings down and then resharpen everything, get ready to variables variables on there. And that's everything from uh you know the bowl, uh, the launch kinetic energy to launch momentum, the impact momentum, what tip of animal it was, what distance was shot at, uh, what bones were hit. So you've got to make it easier because you know, I didn't have a true database computer wise, so I have a field there like it's this entrance rib hit. Yes, no industry of penetrating and penetrate means passed completely through if it just sticks out together side, he didn't penetrate it. The bone stopped the hair. I mean the broadhead had passed through the whole, because the broad head had to completely pass through the bone to consider it penetrating. And then you would carry on through other bones and organs of what was hit. You know, the extra ribs it hit was scapula hit. You know it was a spinal he had spinal process um you know, depending on what you're shooting at, pelvic girdle, neck, vertebra. Uh, So you've got all these bones in there, so you can go through it and look for something in a in a It's in a spreadsheet, so I had limited search if ability. But I could say, you know, all of the trophy sized bull um asian buffalo uh hit from a twenty degree angle uh impacting the ribs, and I'd get all of those, and then I can go back and get the same thing and say, give me all the single bevels that did that. Give me the results from all of the UH E f O C eras that did that, or the ULTRAFC eras, and that way you can start comparing stuff. Okay, here's averages for this, here's average and take out. Okay, these are double bevel broadheads, let's get those, you know, let's get single bevel broadheads. And so you can start getting all these sets of data to compare back and forth to each other, where you can look at what was the minimum penetration, what was the maximum uh. And then you've got fields and every where you described stuff too that really didn't fit in, like bone skips and things like that. U up. So you got one field that's just free field, described the shot, the tissue damage, the whatever you wanted to describe it there and uh on that one when you when we've got links for photos, I said, it's a bad photographer. Didn't have anything like that. So I had to keep tracking what was what with photos just you know, in a book, so just one like one aspect of this. What were the when you were doing this? What were the shot distances for instances uniform? All of those are taken at a measured twenty yards. And then how many total shots wouldn't probably have five thousand and how many animals I don't know, never counted him. And but you had thirty minutes before Rigor would impact though you had about thirty minutes. Now in warm weather you might have a little bit more than that. But we we put it down in thirty minutes, and we stayed in thirty minutes because even in what we cool weather down there, because I went once in December, I'll never do it again to the Northern Territory of Australia. That was miserable. We know a Rigor Moore to specialists, if you ever want to talk to him, there you go University Nebraska. Yeah, Dr Chris Calkins, but he's picky about Caulkins or Calkins, Caulkins, rigor Moore to specialist. There you go. Yeah, well we did ours on the basis of okay, you know in the early days. Yeah, we get past this. Okay, we're seeing a difference in outcomes, so we gotta cut this off here these so these way this this didn't doesn't correlate with what we got before. Okay, what number were on? Where are we design? We should have done this interstitial thing idea? Yeah, dude, what we did was tip of design was I took a series of broadheads Dennick Lara setups. These are all single blade broadheads. Let's say the number again, what number number eleven? And what is it? Tip design tip? Okay, I'm sorry. And what we did was put different tip profiles, and we use seven different tip profiles because that goes against your whole mechanical advantage thing. Reason for that, we were looking at a number of things. He's holding up, he's looking at it. We're looking at a point that has a earlier what he would describe as a very high mechanical advantage angle profile or whatever the hell. But then it's got a little chisel point on it, like chisel is different. Name these things. What's that like knives? They call that what tanto? It's got a tanto point. It looks like two tanto points put back to back. So that's that's what it named. And that name is called on It just stuck through the years, Uh, just because I had to have something to call it when I was doing the testing. Um. But we tried all the different points, and we were looking at durability and skip angle. Now skip angle is a big important factor. The others like a skip like all hell, it doesn't. No, this actually was the best design of all at the lowest skip angle and the highest durability of all the ones we tested. Now, if you could get a needle tip that wouldn't damage, it might do as well. But I never could find one that didn't damage well the way until different materials come. Well, this this came by far the best, and we're one of the things gonna look at and I tried to determine it and we're gonna be able to find out with that high speed camera is I tried different sharpening profiles on this tanto tip. Uh, single bevel on the same side, single bevel on the opposite side, and double bevel, and I was never able to tell which one truly worked the best, particularly for skip angle. What is skip angle? Well, when the an airy hits the bone, most bones are designed to redirect forces. They're they're not only just hold the body up to protect the body, so they curve multiple directions. So it's pretty rare to be able to hit a bone square. It's one of the reasons the buffalo it's such a nice test ad because they have very broad, wide ribs, so you can almost get a square impact. Or like we did, you put a protractor out here, You take a string, you measure the angle, and you shoot at various So the skip angle describes the angle of the bone, not the angle of impact between the broad heads and the bone. Yes, and that's really important, like guys hung out tree stands and stuff, because now they're looking down at ribs and think of the curves that are involved. And it's not uncommon to hit one of those ribs and have the air actually right around the outside curve of those ribs and go into the ground. And a lot of people it happens so fast they think they've shot through. The animal in the air never got into the chest cabin. You just wanted the skin. I think people from eating beef ribs. You know, people get a wrong idea what a deer's rib looks like. When you actually take a deer's rib out, that's some bitches round. Yeah, it's not. It's not a flat face. Most ribs are that way. Yea. Yeah, the bigger the animal gets, the flatter the rib. Elephant ribbs got a big flat giraffe, big flat, hippo's big flat buffalo rude to smaller flat. It's pretty round. Yeah, the smaller the animal gets, the more round they are. Brown bears almost perfectly round, right, it's real round. I feel like this would be a good time to talk about bone busting arrow and whether it's a real thing or if it's a myth. One more and we'll do. Just didn't because the next thing coming up factor number twelve at the bottom of the list, because it's only important when you hit a heavy bone. Is an erraw mass or an arrow weight above the heavy bone threshold? Read that one of me again. It's arraw weight if you want to think of it that way, above the heavy bone threshold. Okay, that's gonna require a lot of explanation. It does, and Most people have it wrong because they read what's there and they see six fifty grains heavy bone threshold and they think, Okay, I got six grains air. It's gonna break heavy bone every time. Wrong. What we found is that every broadhead, doesn't matter how poor it is or how good it is, shows an increase, a marked increase in the bone breaching rate of heavy bone when the air and mass reaches right at the sifty grain, and it's literally within a few grains one way or the other of the six fifty. And it doesn't seem to vary whether you're shooting a compound or whether you're shooting a longboat or recurve with it. Very if you shot at at a hundred ft a second ort a second, not not much at all, doesn't seem to make any difference at all. Uh, when we've tried it, we're gonna do some more of it. It's some more verification of it, but at some point it should if we can get enough force, it should make a difference. But so far we don't have that. Um the basic premises, like we're talking about, the bones are there to protect the body, so they have all of these curves and bands but they also have articulations, so if they move, they also are flexible. They will flex. So when the error hits, it's got to push on this bone long enough to overcome the movement of the bone, the flexion of the bone before it ever starts to penetrate the bone. And that depends on how long it's able to push the impulse of force. And it's strictly weight related. So if you took a real poor broad head, took a muzzy bad to the bone, Yeah, it's bad to the bone, all right, Okay, it's it's it's going to have a pretty low penetration in heavy bone. It's not a great broad head for breaching heavy bone, and it might give you blow blow the heavy bone threshold. Get it above the heavy bone threshold, it might jump to. But you take the best broadheads, and it doesn't matter if the single bevel or double bevel. The best design broadheads good mechanical advantage two point six or higher seemed to be where the cutoff was on. There was the two point six uh bolow the heavy bone threshold. They might have a seven eight bone breaching right you hit the threshold, it is consistently and it doesn't matter if I shoot it with a forty pound re curve or shoot it with a compound. It worked. The foc of the ERA had no effect on heavy bone threshold strictly how long it was able to push on the bone. But once you can breach that bone, then the foc becomes really important because the post breaching penetration is going to depend on that foc because now that air is flying again. It's flying while it's putting on that bone too, but as it's also going to slow down the back of it. Wanta Flex FLC has a lot of that reduced impact paradox we were talking about. So it's gonna cut down the drag a lot once we breached that bone. But that's where the heavy bone threshold comes in. It does not mean that you can take a muzzy and put it on a six fifty grain ERA and go out and break health shoulders ain't gonna happen. But you put a good broadhead, quality steel, durable spit shine dropped home durable point on there. That's not gonna be skitting off bones everywhere. And yes, when we looked at the penetration sumized eras these were all uh e f O c eras. I don't think rae ultra is in there at all, and we're using several different bows. We had a hundred and nineties six hundred ninety six shots, eighteen percent of those with a forty pound bare formula silver recurve traveling at a velocity of a massive hundred and nineteen feet per second shot at twenty yards on buffalo, and go all the way up to eighty two pound bows. So we had we had the forty pound, we had a fifty four pound long bowl, we had a uh seventy pound, sixty four pound longbow, seventy pound long sixty two, sixty two pound longbow, seventy pound long bowl, and eighty two pound and all of these errors had a dent breaching rate hundred ninety six shots on trophy size consecutive consecutive trophy size buffalo. What bone this is the ribs, which is about eight inch eight tenths of an inch of pretty solid bone, so heavier than the scapul and the elk oh, yeah, heavier than the scapul on help absolutely, and all of these errors would have been every factor on there penetration maximized. Mm hmm Okay, let's do this real quick. What should what should folks be like? What should folks be using? Well, that depends on what they're willing to live with. Any factor you use, you think of these as a tool box. Any factor you put off that list and add to your error that you're currently using is going to improve the performance of that error. But what do you mean what they're willing to live with? Well, some people won't. They have this mindset that, oh, if I shoot a six fifth grain Era, my trajectory is just gonna boom if I shoot you hear it all the time. If I shoot an e fo c Era, he's just gonna go out their nose dive. It doesn't. It actually shoots flatter. If you take two errors that are the exact same except for the foc shot out of the same boat, the foc or ultra e fo c era is going to shoot flatter, so because it's conserving energy from the paradox coming off of the boat. Yeah, do you I mean, do you think it's fair to say that people's um that people are prioritizing target, their prioritizing target shooting over killing, their prioritizing hitting the animals, that are killing the animal, and the emphasis needs to be on killing the animal. And there is what we try to talk about, you know a little bit with some of the new stuff that we well, we've got a couple of the videos out now that that Darryl and Troy did. UH. The the parable of the shot, the lighter era as it goes out once it starts to lose velocity. The heavier era, even though it's slower, doesn't do that. It doesn't knows dive like that. It carries it on through. So as you get to these longer ranges, it actually carries It's not not the big drop that people are expecting when you get out there. And this is some actual data using those Doppler uh and you a whole series of tuned arras, all all these tuned to the bows. So so we're starting to collect the hard data on this that is it's not what people are thinking is. And the pin gaps, if you look at the pin gaps with the light eras they go like this like this, you get longer range, you get bigger and bigger pin gaps. With these heavy errors, you don't the pin gaps sticking system stay consistent all the way down because it's carrying that parable of the trajectory out better. You could probably explain this better than me, that my forte is from when it hitstilly gets out of them. So, uh, what would be like in your mind? Um, if you're just gonna throw something like hard and fasts, people should be thinking about if they're if they're focusing on killing the animal, they should be thinking about broadheads and the what they should be thinking about these factors and what they do to their air performance? And in the what grain weight? Well, myself sifty grains. I will not shoot an error below that in a game. And what weight broadhead? I try to get the highest f oc I can with the light of shaft. So I generally am using three grain plus broadheads on brass or steel inserts uh to get as much weight as it can up front, generally with sometimes with internal footing behind that in the shaft are a collar on the front, uh to you have the shaft not being driven in um and keep it from fracturing up front. Um, but I'm trying to put. What I'm trying to do is get as much weight into this little ball as I can. If you could make all the way to that era, a neutron side sucker penetrate to the tank wanted. Now neutron bombs do it. Yeah, it sounds like bo hunters need a science lesson. Well, a lot of it does because they've this stuff has been sold to them in magazines for the last seventy years. That all speed, speed, speed, light, fast, multiply broadheads, they cut bigger holes, they bleed more. Now. I tried doing I tried doing some blood trail data, and uh, with a set of animals, you don't get a lot of it. But if I had to put it down, the blood trail has no bearing on the broad heads you use. What's going to matter is where you hit that animal, what you hit inside that animal, Do you have an exit wound, and where does that exit moon to locate. If you've got a high entrance, high exit, you could have fifteen blades. You're gonna have a poor broad blood trail if you hit him in the back and it comes out his stern um. I don't care. If you're shooting a field point, you're gonna have a blood trailer. You know. That's interesting. I had a client once hit an elk with like a three thirty eight windmag I believe it was hit him high. Eventually we found him, but guess what we didn't have something happens with guns. Ye, not been of difference. All the bloods inside the cabin. How to fill up they're bleeding, but yeah, it takes a while to fill it. Like just cavity ups big. That's a big pot of blood. That blood is gonna collect in the air and it's gonna collapse lungs. So not only is he dive from ass of blood, but it's going to get the force harder and harder for him to travel. And that's what you're trying to do this when you want hopefully two holes through the lungs. If you can get that, then you get that numal thora actually start to collapse those lungs and he doesn't travel. As for all right, tell everybody how to find you, Well, you need to go to h Ashby Bow Hunting dot org. We are a five old, one c three nonprofit. None of the people are salary to. Everybody is a volunteer. That all the officers everything, and we'll take donations from individuals, won't take them from archery industry. Now, if somebody works in the archery industry and wants to donate as an individual, but it's not gonna buy any special access or special treatment in any way. And if you okay, and then just to get the so if you want to see so, so you guys at Grizzly Stick, make a point that is the closest like it's the closest manifestation of what you would argue to be the point we were talking last night. If if I'm picking a point to hunt with the day, there are only two. Now, there might be some others that haven't been tested yet, so I don't want to rule them out, but ones that have been tested thoroughly that I know work, is only two that I would use. One is the astuty broad head, which looks just about like that, and the other one, uh is the tough head, the three gin tough head, the original one. And because those work. Now, I did a lot of testing with very narrow broad heads where I were taking these and working them down, uh to well blow an inch diameter because you've got a lot of loss to say, you gotta have an inch diameter broad head or inch and an eighth or something like that in various places works just fine. It kills buffalo, it'll kill white tails. Can't necessarily go the other way around. You know, people missed that thing. You know, Like I said, I like to carry one an era. I don't care what I encounter. I'm ready to shooting. Uh. Do you guys get any donations. We're just really getting started with him coming in, but we're getting some coming in. And we're in the process now of doing some grant requests from you know, like Dallas far Club and people like that. And uh. And you don't feel like that's gonna you don't feel that's gonna lead to industry manipulation. It's gonna have to be it's gonna have to be a grant and no strings attached period. God, if they're strings attached, we ain't doing it. We've had some people in the archery industry want to donate, and no, not like those guys the tobacco industry hires and show the tobacco good for you, all right, ask me Bow Hunting Foundation. Yes, go to it, look at it. Donate if you want to find out, if you want to support research that finds out what really works, what doesn't work, and and what the money goes for, Like senators. No salaries involved. Is buying the equipment. Why we're buying this high speed camera? We bought this, brought these doctor radar chronographs. Do you do Q and as with people like if they go like, hey, what about this? Do you reply to him? Oh? Yeah, We've got a place in there that they can ask questions and and we'll give me answers, you know what answer we can give them. And the guys volunteer a lot of time. They uh, they build even to the point of building up air setups for people, Um you know that that are going hunt a cape buffalo or something and I've never done him. Um. So they actually do a hand a lot of hands on for individuals and it's called ask ashpy but but it's it's it's routed to whichever one of us on the board is is most qualified nanswer, cause my hands are getting where I can hardly do anything with them. If they can answer, they answer. If they can, it comes to me, got it? And if I can't answer it, I tell them I don't know. You know, that's we're doing testing. Owner are Hey, that's something we're gonna add to the testing. That's a good idea, you know, they're just stuff, you know, people are good about doing that, and and we have become involved with one of the big things with Texas Parks and Wildlife. We're affiliated with them, so we put on programs teaching this type stuff to the Bowl Hunter Education instructors, so we trained them in that and UH we worked with FAZA, the Professional Hunter Association of South Africa and the one in the media also and we're trying to set up one in Zambia. Working with that, we supplied a lot of information that went over to Russia where they illegalized winning last year UH and looking at Germany, looking to some other places that were trying to system with information the data we have Botswana and so we're trying to you know, reach out that way. So we not only try to work with government agencies and just Reese well, we sent out letters to every state fishing Game department telling them what we're doing with Texas Parks and Wildlife and seeing if we can assist they mean, we've had replies back from I don't know what two or three or four. You know, there's just not a lot of people that have information for those guys that want to go out and educate people and so when we've been able to supply that information for them, they've been starving for it. Almost seems like a lot of the guys and just they're looking for ways to better educate their students when they're going through this the house and wives of what's going on site them. Thanks Doc, appreciated, welcome, asked bow Hunt and Foundation. Check them out, donate, senate donation, everybody