00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything presented by first light. Go farther, stay longer. Alright, Spencer, we got a lot to do. But how quick do you think you can do your Arkansas and update? Quick? I think Arkansas update? But set up? Why? Why isn't up? Like why we talked in the past about the term Arkansas or something. No, it means different things with different people. It means popping up and shooting a duck off the water, that's right. Or you can Arkansas grouse, shooting a pheasant out of the ditch, shooting a dove off of power line? Did we mention? No, that is not Arkansas. It's not. You can't Arkansas a dove off a power line. Why not just be shooting dup off a powerline? Arkansas is shooting it on the ground. Well, let's let's get in Like if you shot a turkey out of a tree, God forbid, you wouldn't be saying you Arkansas the turkey when he's down the ground. You do on Arkansas, I know, But that's what I'm saying. You're you're like Arkansas means that you're sort of taking this like uh an advantage over your quarry and you know, no, go ahead. That's all I have to say I understand is my old man told me that in Arkansas, there's like a boat in Arkansas boat something you'd pull up on ducks and have all these ten gage shotguns lined out and you they're they're one at water level, one slightly higher, one slightly higher. As he explained to me, Arkansas boat pulls up on a raft of ducks, boom bottom, they start to take off, boom. The next gun they start to take off, boom. The next volley is a little higher on rigged boat rigged ones on boats. And that's my That's what he told me. And that name, though I thought you had said, was inspired by like the warship, I can definitely never said that a worship. Yeah, they were US Arkansas. That's right. I was pulling, stupid, I was pulling for your explanation to be correct, Steve. When when you brought that up, I'm like, Okay, that's uh, that's like a cute explanation. That makes sense. The worship that I've never heard the duck boat things Okay, that's cute. Yeah, I think so like fits all right. I can't find anything about it. They've talked to my old man. I was even biased. My dad had written down here, here's how the internet works. If my old man had written down his theory and put it on an article, you would have searched and you've been like, oh, here's proof. Yes, I was pulling for you. I was even biased in my search. Hope me to confirm what you said, because I like that explanation so much. But I found that Arkansas as a term extends way beyond just like a method of take. It's a derogatory term used all over hunting, lingo and beyond. So you have an Arkansas limit, which is if you're allowed like fifteen crop eas and you take home sixteen, but the Bakers doesn't, you got an Arkansas limit. If if you're not allowed to shoot hand pheasants and you shoot a hand pheasant, then you've got an Arkansas limit. Let's just start calling it a newcomb. Yeah, there's that's that's horrible because clays like that. It gets worse here. I was listen, I just want to clarify something. I wasn't making a comment on Clay's like adherence to game laws, I was more like his him being from Arkansas. I I found um an article written by somebody from Arkansas talking about the Arkansas of America, which was written in advance of Bill Clinton becoming president, in talking about how Arkansas is a term you can find all over the South that means a lot of different things. So that's that's where a lot of cinfo is coming from. Also, different forums where people talking about, like, hey, what do you guys call it when you uh like shoot something off of power line? Or what do you call it when you shoot something off water? So that's that's where the c info is coming from. So that's where so it just means taking liberties, taking liberties with we got in our context, in our context of what we deal with here on this program. It's taking liberties with game laws. Yes, and you'll you'll like these other examples, then can you Arkansas your taxes? You have? Now that this was probably my favorite one, And there's terms different terms for it all over the United States that I found in these different forums. If deer season opens on November two sunset and November one is referred to as the Arkansas open or if you live in Minnesota, you might refer to do it as the Wisconsin opener. Or I found people in the north Woods that would refer to it as the Finnish opener or the Polish opener. So basically, whatever group of folks you'd like to put down, it's just insert here opener when I You know what's funny about that is when I was growing up, you always hated like the real rednecks rods just north of you. So if you were in twin Light, you knew that the real hell Billies were in Holton. If you ask from from Holton who the real hell Billies were, they were from Hispiia. And it just marched up the state like that. In these places are not far apart, you know, but it was like a very like other. That's where the real poachers are. You know. When I, when I was a kid, um, I couldn't remember the difference between North Korea and South Korea. I grew up in South Dakota, and our history teacher told us in middle school, he says, well, you remember it like this, South Dakota is good and South Korea is good. North Korea is very bad. North Dakota is very bad. Do you We're gonna move on. But do you remember when South Dakota North North Dakota did that play that North Dakota was gonna change its name to Dakota in South Dakota got pissed. I mean this is ah No, yeah, I don't, I don't remember. It was like a pr stunt. But they're they're gonna drop the North. They were gonna do whatever it takes to drop North and become Dakota. Like Virginia West Virginia, right, They wanted to do that same thing, and they thought it would help tourism out because if you said to someone like, hey man, you want to go on on a vacation to Dakota, there you go. You know, it makes South seem like, I don't know, like whatever some I've forgotten other part. It'd be like Virginia holds more. You know, I guess holds that. I'm not gonna go with that, you know what I'm saying, Yeah, not hold on. I'm I'm afraid you still think your Arkansas boat explanation is a correct one. Yeah, of course, I have other examples here to show you how Arkansas just us a derogatory term all over. You have Arkansas asphalt, which is a chromey road with pothole. You can go on in Arkansas date, which is the same thing as going Dutch. Each pay for your own thing. Uh. You can Arkansas somebody out of something, which is like swindling, like that banker wants to Arkansas somebody out of his farm. You have on Arkansas wedding cake. Do you want to take a guess as to what that is? A pie? Corn bread? You have an Arkansas strawberry, which is a hickey. And then in the card game of Uker, you can get Arkansas, which is if you are trying to get like five tricks in Uker and you come up with only three, you came up short, so now you're gonna get Arkansas. It's weird that that exists. But then there's also a type of duck hunting boat called an Arkansas boat. Good Dry. I kind of believe you. I kind to believe you, but I almost have to have I'd have to talk to Clay about it too. I feel bad for you. Talk to about it a little bit in the past, and he he said, they don't refer it is refer to it as that, but is he aware of it? Yeah, when you're in Arkansas and you Arkansas dark, what do they say? Well? Okay, So you come across examples of this in forums where like somebody from Arkansas refirst do it is Oklahoma? Or you have like somebody in Mississippi, uh that refers to it as Louisiana or whatever. But Arkansas seems to be a fairly agreed upon term. We get people from like Wyoming, Michigan, Illinois, like all over the country. Oh yeah, I was gonna ask if we could send if we could a sign spencer, like another task here for the next podcast and come back with the origins of Kentucky windage m HM, which I have always heard and Seth corrobreadd that it's basically like the long hunters not taking real precise shots and just being like just all four feet over it's back. But I think it's I think it's because I think it's I think it's a honorable thing. I think it's like you're talking about these these very like the long Kentucky long hunters with Kentucky rifles, these people who had were like very accurate instinctive shooters or is it poking fun at the hunting culture in Kentucky. Have you ever watched that You ever watched The Alamo? No where Billy Bob Thornton plays Boone? Doesn't he play Boone in the Alamo? Yeah, Billy Bob Thornton plays Boone and he goes to shoot uh. He goes to shoot uh Mexican officer at the Alamo, and he licks his finger and holds it up in the air and then takes this crazy shot and kills the guy. I think that he's like it was an homage to Kentucky windage. I like it. I can get behind that, and I will be cheering for that explanation when I do something sleuth thing. I want to move on to Yanni's Mountain Lion Store, but I have one more thing to say, and this is a thing that I'd like to spend some time on. At some point, as we recognize, like as we as a culture recognized that you know, you shouldn't tell don't tell Vinanoli jokes, right, don't tell Polish jokes like these are jokes that are insulting the people in their prejudicial um, at what point and it's I'm not the guy that invented this thought, But at what point, why is it still okay? It will always be okay. The one thing everyone can agree on that like one despicable thing is a poor Southern white person, do you know what I mean. It's like it's like it winds up being that. It's like you can always dog on that in the movie. If you got a movie and you want a bad person to come out, the bad person will come out, and it will be like, let me guess, right, let me guess we were I was watching movie with my kids where it's like these these wolf it's a stupid movie where they got to move these It's it's one of those movies where like the animals are the good guys and all the people are bad guys, and there's these guys are doing like wolf removal in Canada. But sure enough they come out and it sounds like American Southerners. M hmm. It's a it's a stereotype that I don't I think it's gonna be the last. The last standing stereotype would be that that, uh, you know, an American Southerner with a drawal is it will be like the last that would be the last one to go away? What do you think about that? Kin' right? That's that's I thought you're gonna have. I thought that you would. Um. I think I feel that I was being that. I was like that, I didn't put that right. No, I think unfortunately that's right. I think that we have stereotype kind of deeply seated that people who sound a certain way with a Southern draw like that, that that and like intelligence don't go together. And that's that's just not that's just ridiculous because I could still run around if I went and said to some people, Um, if I went to some enlightened folks and I said, oh yeah, he Arkansas at the duckt, They're not gonna say like, dude, come on, They're not, do you know what I mean? They're gonna be oh yeah, those people. There was a show on Netflix called The one hundred Humans where they took fifty people and put them in auditorium and they had a presentation done by someone with a British accent, and then that exact same person gave a presentation to another group of fifty people, the exact same presentation, word for word, minute for a minute, but in a Southern accent. And then they had the audience, like give them a score for what did you think of this person? And like give us some commentary on them? And the person with the British accent got far better remarks despite it being the exact same information, exact same That is interesting and not surprising. Yeah, okay, we gotta do an update on Suvie. Are you guys more like sue Vied? I never know what the hell to say. I used to say sue Vie than I heard people that seem like they know more than me say Suevied. I think I think the E at the end makes it a hard d. There you go, Suvied. Two years of French in high school. That either makes you pretty qualified? Yeah, I think so too. Well, that would make me qualified on Spanish and that's not true. While we're on Suvied, since my dad brought this up and this is why we're gon we're continuing on this topic, UM, I'm gonna also go ahead and introduce uh this morning, Stephen Ronnella, Seth Morris Spencer, new Hearth, Phil the engineer and Crine Schneider Snyder always mess it up? Why Snyder's from that? Snyder was the mechanic in that show, Alice, which one is it? Smack me on my head and tell me, Snidernier, what years that reference from? Steve? I think there were reruns when I was a little boy, like I told, I told said the day he looked like Gomer Pile. He didn't know what I was talking about. And then I looked it out and it's hilarious. I got because see, I think that we only watched old shows when I was little, and I don't watch much anymore, so all my watching was already stuff that was already old. Somebody made the observation yesterday that the only pop culture references you like are from the eighties and eighties? Is a modernor that would be like that. I almost don't like that because it's too new. Like if I see someone who's like pretty ripped, I'll say that, you know, it looks like Lou Frigno, um, and I'm like, what the hell? So so uh Sue uh Sue vied. We gotta have to put this one of the rest, because I gotta explain now this is an update about an update a long time ago. I hate to even review this people a long time ago. I'm trying to do as quick as possible. Guy wrote in saying, hey man, my, we were doing a home birth and some people that do a home birth find it's more comfortable to do it. And the heated tub. They were heating the tub for the new baby to emerge into the world by dipping a stuvie apparatus and there, which is like a thing you plug into your wall. You're honest father, being a building inspector and generally hip to human safety rights. Then he says, when you're in a tub full of water, don't put plugged in things into it with you. And then we felt this probably useful to bring that up because you know how many movies you see where someone gets in the tub and then drops like a whatever in there and it's electrocuted. So he thought, it's not made for that. Definitely, don't suggest that. And then we talked about how does it work, like, like, how does liability work. Yanny was doing it because he didn't want to, uh, he didn't want his conscience. He didn't want dead infants on his conscience and newborns and I didn't want liability. I think there's some crossover between this on those issues. So that this lawyer writes in about how liability works in these kind of situations, and he was explaining there's a certain you know, breed of lawyer who this is their bread and butter, where a dumb person does something dumb and then wants to blame others when they get hurt, and this plaintiff's litigation becomes like a sort of legal extortion. So he says, it plays out like this, like a person listens to your podcast, right, they decided that I'm gonna heat my top up with a suvied apparatus. They get shocked in the tub, they go to the hospital. They're sitting in the hospital and they've seen one of those attorney commercials while they're recuperating, and it's one of those commercials like car wret, slip and fall, Get the Justice you Deserve. They call that one number to get tough. They described the circumstances and extent of their injuries. The plaintiff's attorney then does a little mental math and compare the severity usually quantified in hospital bills to who are we gonna sue? And as you trail this down, you're looking for a well ensured, well funder, well known person entity that could be liable at that point, it's game. On says in the suvied scenario that we're explaining here like someone hears it on this show gets hurt. They called us like get tough attorney. He's gonna start out, He's gonna be curious about the su vied manufacturer for a defective product design. He's gonna be curious about the seller of the suvied apparatus for selling a poorly designed product. He's gonna be curious about the home unit building contractor potentially for faulty construction or wiring. He's gonna be curious about the home unit building electrician for the same reasons. He's gonna get curious about the landlord for renting a potentially dangerous apartment. He's gonna get curious about Meatia or inc for negligence and promoting and encouraging dangerous practices. He's gonna get curious about the particular but who were on the podcast and their personal capacity for negligence and promoting and encouraging dangerous practices, and anyone else that you can think of. Then it's a classic situation where though no single individual is responsible, each one of these people has to participate in the litigation, and therefore they carry inherent risk of exposure. What happens then is you go to each of these people and you lay out how you're thinking about this whole thing. The pitch is something like this, Look, you're gonna have to defend this lawsuit no matter what, no matter what we're coming after. You're gonna have to get lawyers and defend yourself. The way I'm gonna pull this off, It's gonna cost you ten thousand bucks to defend yourself. What you can do is just give me that ten thousand now and I'll dismiss it. No embarrassments, no court. But that's how this is gonna go down. You get a bunch of these people, they all agree to it. Then you end up with a pretty decent total settlement. No one ever goes in to see a jar, there's no jury. Everybody just gets extorted out of their money. So don't put the damn suevite deal. If you're thinking of suing meat eater, We're onto you. Yeah, I'll be like, you know what, bro bring it on, That's what I'm gonna say. I'm gonna be like, bring it up, bring it up, that's where you get into that whole world, you know, to hear about countersuing counter suing for dance, You know what I mean. Uh, So here's a good segue. So uh a listener did write in to say this. Here here's where you learn that this does happen because a guy says he was listening to the podcast and heard about the Suevied birthing bath. It gave him an idea. During the big Texas deep freeze, the two twenty one deep freeze, when all of his power and gases out, he did use a generator and a Suevied apparatus to heat water to and he said it and use his generator, heated his water to a hundred and thirteen degrees, filled a large shrimp pot, and then use that water debathe, but not with the device in it. He said, I would never have thought of this hadn't you boys mentioned it. So he just used it to warm up the water and then moved the device and then cleaned up in his shrimp pot. So he also goes out and here's what here's what the good segue comes in. He also goes on to explain that he works for an h back company. Interestingly, if he works for an h back company, how did he never think of this? It's a good point. I used to be on you know, LinkedIn. I used to be on linked I just recently got off it again. But all my like associates be like some h bad guy in Florida. You know. I'm like, I don't know we how are we going to help each other in networking? But sure we could be partners. Um, he works for an h back company and ways, so they have a supply. This this gets so concluded. They have a supplier who has a big ranch, and they allow the employees to hunt the big ranch because they're all in the business relationship. Anyways, two thousand five access deer died on this ranch. Throws the death on this ranch. Their entire population of black buck antelope died killed in that deep freeze. They were loading them up in bucket loaders and burning the carcasses. He's like, I wish you would have been there. Would have got me a lot of free meat. And man, do we get a lot of feedback from people after seeing the big deep freeze of just mountains of dead animals and a lot of them like very highly esteemed um, wild game species, right, like Neil guy, you know, as our our friend Jesse Griffin's explained, like you guy in South Texas is a stand in for beef. He's like ranch, yoursell cows. They eat Neil guy. Um, they lost eighties some on their place and experience conversation like why can't you after the big deep freeze? Why can you or can you not go out there and just like give it to food banks or go out and cut all the backstraps out and live off it. So we're taking our questions to doctor Professor Chris Calkins, meet scientists at University of Nebraska. And you might know Dr Calkins because he was on the show before our greatest episode ever. I can't remember what it was called. You can't remember, that's right, Yeah, the Red Cutter. You want to learn a bunch of stuff about butcher and whatnot and and safety protocol, uh, slaughter practices, all that stuff. Seven. I listened to it twice. It was so good. Red Cutter. Chris Colkins, Well, thanks for the question. After that lead up introduction, I'm not sure I should say anything with all this litigation in the air. Yeah you did, you didn't realize how the ring started. You didn't realize how liable you were. That's it. We we talked last time about the fact that when you harvest an animal that there is the risk that bacteria will migrate from the gut into the meat and create a food safety problem. That's regardless of the quality of the meat. There is that health risk. And so if we have an animal that dies because of a cold spell, we have that same concern about duration between when death occurs and when you're able to remove the guts and remove the source of health risk from the animal. And so it's really easy to think about, Gosh, if we're just freezing meat, then frozen meat is okay to eat, which certainly frozen meat is safe. But I would start by saying, we need to remember that animals and people can freeze to death at at freezing temperatures. It doesn't have to be so many degrees below zero, and the body doesn't instantly freeze stiff. It takes a long time to remove the heat to be able to freeze something solid, and so that time duration between death and freezing of the meat is the time at which the health risk occurs. So that's a long way for me to say that if I come upon an animal that's frozen, I'm not interested in eating the meat because of a health concern and health consideration. Chris, can you explain the process of death, the physiological processes of death. You know, in freezing temperatures, these animals in dying go through what well, you know, it's uh, there's some similarities here between the what the animal experiences and what humans experience in a hypothermia case. Right, So the body does two things. First of all, it tries to retain heat, right, prevent heat loss. So we do that by closing down the blood vessels on our extremities, and we try and centralize the blood more towards the center of the animal. And of course there's a whole lot of physiological stress that goes on. So we're gonna dump adrenaline and cortisol and everything else into the bloodstream and that's going to trigger a whole set of reactions. So the first thing have this body tries to retain heat, and then secondly it says I'm getting cold, I need to produce heat, and so that production of heat we start increasing metabolic rates that causes UH. In humans, we get muscle shivering. Uh. In animals, we're going to move to glycogen and fats as sources of energy because we have this energy deficit and the metabolic consequences of that. Ultimately we we change blood chemistry. Um, we start to produce cold induced production of urine. All of that disrupt the electrolytes and eventually the animal will die through cardiac arrest. Oh that's what winds up happening, Chris. I understand what you're saying about the you know, the mystery of time of death. And I can also understand how someone would think while the animal, like an animal froze to death, so it must have been you know, it must have been preserved, because we associate coldness with preservation. So I get that you'd have that that logical mistake of not realizing that then still retains body heat for potentially hours and maybe never freezes. But let's say there was a situation where, um, I know this is like this is macab But let's say there's a situation where you you see the animal expired. Okay, um, so you know that it frolls to death. I was there at the moment of death. What would you think at that point about like the quality of flesh of something that went through that kind of death when you compare it to in a controlled commercial atmosphere. They're looking for low stress, very quick death. Well, you're right. Commercially, that's exactly what the goal is is low stress and quick death. But if you happen upon an animal and you happen to see its last breath it expires because it's cold outside, that that animal is still going to be warm. That body will not be in rigor mortis. It will be very similar to what you see if you were to go shoot a deer and uh, it might be cold outside, but you know, the temperature of the body itself is still going to be quite high. And so at that instant, from a temperature standpoint, you could say, Okay, I've found it quick enough. Now I have the possibility of maybe considering whether I want to save the meat or not. But but think about all of those things that happened that caused that animal to expire. The blood chemistry is messed up, you have metabolic acidosis that the acid in the body has been produced. We start to see damage to the internal lining of the gut, which potentially could make it easier for bacteria tics to go. The blood is full of extra dose of stress hormones, all of those things. Even if you might be able to eat it and might might think it's gonna be okay, those are those are not ideal conditions for how you would harvest meat from a game animal. And so you're really dealing with an animal that Remember, all of those conditions got so bad that the animal died as a result of the change to biochemistry inside that muscle. I wouldn't be anxious to bite into that kind of physiological situation in animals as as a result of the animal having pros it today. Can let me hit you with with one more um, this is great. So I already know the answer to this, But this is more of a less of a professional question, more of a personal question. I think I know the answer to it. When you look, if you see footage like this um or some of these images that came out of that deep freeze of just these massive mounds of dead animals um in your head, are you thinking, oh, there's some things that could be done or that we could do to salvage that or use that, or you just you look and you're like burn it, bury it. I mean, there's nothing to be done here. I mean, I, like everybody else, I hate to see product wasted. And so you're I understand the tendency. Don't want to say it ought to be okay to go ahead and eat this. Um. But if if an if a commercial animal died that way, our federal inspection system would not allow that product to be sold. That's interesting. Um, there's a there truly is uh concerns and considerations about the aesthetics of how that animal died in a issue to all the chemistry changes that are taking place that would really give you cause to pause. Now, you know, you can always build a scenario that maybe we're freezing to death too, and if we don't eat, we die, and so in a situation like that, would I be willing to eat the product? Well, you know, given the alternatives, perhaps so. But but every step along the way, you're increasing risk of of to your health. And again I emphasize that it got so bad for that animal that that animal's health was risk to the point where the animal died. And now you want to eat it, you know, if you if you want to eat it when it starts getting cold, that's one thing. But to to to take something that already died um from from a cold situation like this, you that animal has already had a whole lot of metabolic changes taking place inside the body trying to fight off that ultimate death. And when you when you take uh that product, when you take that meat, then it has the consequence of all of those metabolic changes that have occurred that tried to keep that animal alive. And those are that that would be an unnatural amount of biological changes that you normally find when you shoot an animal or when an animals commercially harvested for meat. Excellent, this is great. I'll finally be able to sleep at night without the guilt of having not run down to Texas. There you go. You know, in Nebraska here a few weeks ago we had minus thirty one degrees as a cold temperature in February. Now that's not a typical fact. That was a record low temperature. But we didn't have every every wild animal or even every commercial animal in the state die. Their acclama did over the course of the winter to um to accommodate some of those temperatures, and so that cold situation that occurred in Texas, and my wife's from Texas, so I've I've been there plenty, and I you know, it's a great state. But those animals were not acclimated to a sudden shift in temperature, so biologically their response was greater than it would be for an animal, for example, in Nebraska that would experience a similar condition. Huh, that's a good point. Let me let me hear another one. And I really appreciate that you're willing to um entertain these kind of you know, sort of strange out there questions, but the legitimate questions. These are questions we get from people. We had recently had I had recently put a photo on Instagram that Alignment working in New York had found where a I think it was a four thousand, eight hundred vault overhead power line had collapsed and it had landed on a buck. It must have been summertime, like it was a white tail and still in velvet, landed on the buck and obviously, you know, killed the buck and seemed to kind of burn a big deep line across it. And then we had a lot of people sending photos of you know, black bears that declimbed power lines. Just how they climb a tree, but climbed a power line and got electricute all these things. I had no idea there's this much stuff out there being electrocuted. And when you consider that in a in a commercial slaughter practice, as we discussed when you came on the show, you explained in great detail about during the slaughter process how they do use um electricity during the slaught, like post post mortem electricity during the slaughter process. If you were sitting there and you saw all of a sudden, like a a great a steer whatever the hell like a like the per fixed specimen and it steps on a wire and wham gets killed by electricity, then what's in your head? I got you like, oh, I better get my knife sharpened up? Or are you like, damn, there goes my good cow because it doesn't go through that process of like the body starting to have a stress response. Yeah, so in that case you're dealing with instant death. And as we just talked about, you can you can use um. It's not done for cattle, but for for other species you can use electricity. It is a U s d A approved method of dispatch for animals. And so if I'm standing there and that animal gets you know, the bigger likelihood of what happens is a bolt of lightning, And every now and then there will be a whole crowd of cattle crowded together. A bolt of lightning will come along and it'll it'll take out twenty or thirty animals. So that's a that's an instantaneous death. And you could certainly go harvest the product at that point. And just as if you'd shot your your animal, and you'd be good to go. So as long as you got to it immediately after the electrocution, then I would say that that's that's that's a legitimate cause of death for an animal. Happened quickly, not time for a real metabolic response and all the rest of those things. You're probably good to go under that case. Now, if you if you wander on that same animal, uh, and you can see that it was killed by electricity, but it's already stiff, it's already in rigor. You know, it could have been there six eight hours or more. And once again, the time frame is way too long from death to harvest to to to want to run a risk of capturing product under those conditions. Excellent. I'm glad we called all right, Dr Chris Calkins, thank you very very much. Um, we need to get you here for real sometime. Yes, absolutely, I appreciate you joining us remotely. University of Nebraska. Correct, that is correct, Yes, thank you sir, all right, thank you all yeah. Yeah, I need to tell us you're you're tell us you're how you narrowly escape death from a mountain lion. Buddy, I'm still shaking after that one. Zack Sandow and I Zack from on X. We're hunting, uh the opening weekend of Montana's turkey season, and uh, I'll skip through the part where we didn't make the right moves in the morning to get on these birds that we had so lokated so well the evening before. Man like we went to sleep going like did turkey in the morning. But yeah, what's that someone's got a saying about that roosted ain't roasted or something like that. Well, yeah, we were, we were singing that song in the morning. Anyways. You also skip the part where you killed one the day before, so you were already successful at this point. That's right, that's right, different spot though, the same spot, same spot. Yeah. Um, he's modest. I'll started right out with that. Well, you know, if I was the reason meing is because I shot the turkey, slowed it down a little bit, and then I did not have a window for a follow up shot. Zack polished him off and he got that was his bird. Obviously quite about that, Yeah, he was trying to so the next morning, So that couple hours in the morning, we're like, all right, this ain't working, and and luckily we can hear a distant golber like way on this ridge above us, and so we strip our layers off. It might have been the coldest turkey morning I've ever had, twenty three degrees when we got out of the truck. Yeah, they don't want to get out of the treaty too early when that's going on. Sometimes, Like I wore my puffy pants to this setup for that. That's incredible, man. So we strip off some layers we had about We figured we could have close to a thousand feet of elevation game and uh, we get up there and one gobbler turns into like two, and then as we get closer, we realized there's quite a few gobblers going and we're working in there. It's just real thick a lot of dead fall. There's been like a wind event in this area, and so just hard to kind of get through the wind event. Yeah, wind event that just like a big trees flattened in the same direction. Well just like you could tell fresh trees have recently been blown over with you and uh, it's it's just brushy. It's real hard to move anywhere. Slow lead or sorry quietly, Um it was making me move slow. Anyways, We're getting close and trying to figure out how to get in on these turkeys when all of a sudden, hen sparks up like too close for comfort, to the point where we're like we we just have to sit down, Like we can't move around anymore now, and now we're risk at busting the flock, so we'll just sit down and kind of see what happens. And we're sitting on sort of one side of a a gully kind of drainage feature that's on the side of this mountain and opposite of us as a slope that's kind of face enough, and this drainage goes up to our left and it actually kind of benches out and that's where these turkeys are. We're sitting there for a while, and I call a little bit out him at the flock, and you know, the flocks is hammering every time I call, but I knew that it wasn't gonna happen. Like they were just happy to be gobbling at me, but they wasn't really feeling real confident that one was going to break off and just come check me out. Like I could hear a bunch of hands and they're going off. They had what they needed. So eventually I'm like, oh, I'm just gonna shut up and hopefully they'll just fade away and then we can swoop around and you know, going for another setup. And it's been maybe ten or fifteen minutes and they're all still there, the hands still clucking away and uh down to my right in this gully and again like four or five sometimes even six ft of of all kinds of thick understory type brush from seth um can you do sound effects? Yeah? Okay, sound effects? Ah well, he's got to fill in some goggles right now. Okay, okay, that's pretty good. Now you'll you'll you'll get your cues all right. Yeah, there's a hand, the hand that we've been listening to. She's doing like a Um, it's one of those where you think it's like it's like a like between a cluck and a putt, but very soft. Yeah, but like fifty times in a row, you get busy. There's five she's she's a yakking. Um. Anyways, we're sitting there. It's the turkeys are still kind of going, but we've been quiet for a while, and uh, I'm just leaving. I'm leaning kind of the shadow of of a great big I don't know, if of a spruce or a fir tree something like that. It must have been two or three ft wide, and uh, down this gully kind of off to my right, I hear and I wish I just could remember it better because it's like maybe the most exciting part of the whole story. But it's like it's it's in my mind. It registers as air coming out of an animal's mouth. Very well. Could have been just that might have been a touch more gir or growl, yeah, something like that. That's the last thing I want to hear when I'm out. I feel like I'm there. I just started shooting off in that direction. Right after that. I can hear footsteps like that. Well they're soft, like yeah, but a little bit of like crunching of pine needles and and and you know the detritus. I'm getting the mood now, yeah, do all my work for me, said, I tell Zack. I'm like, dude, get your camera ready, because he had been you know, running the camera a little bit since he wasn't carrying a shotgun, since he was tagged out and still talking or no, yeah, they're all They're all still up there, yakking away in a gobble every now your attention isn't focused entirely different directions. At this point, I'm looking down the hill and uh, says that, get your phone out. I think there's a bear coming up the coming up the draw. And the only reason I said bears because just like that's sort of what I'm expecting in like this landscape, um, and something that could hear footsteps, so well, I figured, you know, bear. And a second later, I'm like, oh no, it's tam I'm like, it's just a deer zacht you know, video it anyways, you know it's gonna walk great bias. I'm like, deer's got a tail, it's a mountain lion. And uh, immediately you know acts like holy shit, you know, and there's actually two mountain lions that we can see at first, and they're smaller, so this is all again happening fast. And as they take a few more stuff, yeah yeah, yeah, I'm guessing there at least a year old pounds um fifteen yards ish. Yeah, yeah, pretty close. And they as soon as they sort of like we're kind of talking and maybe moving our heads a little bit, and you know, full cam, we've got our face max on and they immediately catch our movement and the one first just sort of snarls and growls at us. The lead. Now, yeah, then it's a little Then it's sibling turns and does ninety degrees. So instead of going up, this draw turns ninety degrees and takes like three or four steps and like a low crouch slinking towards you, you know shape, and then kind of then stops and does the same thing. And it's like realizing that, like, oh, I thought you were like the turkey. I was about too, that I'm hunting that I might pounce on it, But now I'm realizing you're not, and I'm kind of pissed about it. This is what I was reading from its snarl, So it's snarls too. And then at that point I'm like, all right, um, that's enough of that. And you know, I then took my shotgun from my lap and I pointed at it, and that movement was enough to spook it, and then it's sibling spooked, and then mama spooked off too. But uh yeah, pretty neat little wildlife encounter. That's good fun man, that's cool. Get your get your get your heart bumping. For the sake of the story, I was hoping you'd have like a tugboat go by, or like Christopher walking show up, so would really just challenge Seth. I was walking apart for Seth. You know what did keep the gobblers goblin though, was the Canada geese that kept flying up and down the river. Oh I can't good work boys. Unfortunately, they spooked towards the flock of turkeys and we did not hear another Oh that shut him up pretty good. Oh there was no clucking, no yelping, no goblin. And we hiked around that mountain for another thirty minutes and they were going just disappeared. That means it's time to be quiet. When myline runs by, they're out, you know, you're all was great stories about people getting you know, their hats taken off top of their head from Bob Cats and lines and stuff when they're hunting turkeys. Yeah, yeah, when they're when one stocking at Yet you're not like this is a good opportunity to maybe get a real close, even closer encounter with the mountline. Yeah. I had a good segue earlier, if you remember, I took it from like really seamlessly from Sue vied to meet scientists. This guy, there's a doctor that wrote us in, wrote into us. I don't know how he pronounces his name, Mark slab a empty slawba slab. I don't know yea Mark slab a mpt slab. Very articulate man. He wrote in with a segway of his own. He said, there's a there's a recognizing it as a transition between desparate subjects. But he was tying together two things we were talking about that we didn't make a link. On one. We did an episode where we discussed in what he calls excellent detail, the implications of lead poisoning on both wildlife and humans. Was referring to as a discussion we had about um it is a well known fact. What you do with this fact is up to you, But it is a well known fact that lead from bullet fragments in carcasses has the potential can lead to raptor death. UM. And that lad shot on the landscape UH used to lead to waterfowl death. Now, whether it's you know, the debate is lots of things that all the time, we're not talking about population. We are are not talking about population level impact. Cars killed wildlife, windmills kill wildlife, fences killed wildlife. UM, the windows in your house kill wildlife. And yes, bullets killed wildlife? What you do with that? Um? Like we kind of got an all that right, and then we talked about how they're just as not. In my view, and I've read more than most, there's no convincing evidence, um, that that hunters are the wild game diet is giving you elevated levels of lead like, no one's proven this in fact, I think you know, when you look at it, people are gonna have a fit when I say this, But you know, you look at like urban like people that live in in very urban environments often have higher levels of lead than people who live in rural environments but eat nothing but wild game because you have lead from one Uh, you have all the lead and soil from leaded fuel, lead paints. There's a lot of lead out there, and so it's hard to say conclusively like oh yeah, and people need a lot of that, dear meat, have more because there's other factors such as like where you live, that are more profound than what you might Let's making sense to Crins nodding, Yeah, I mean I grew up in a city who knows, who knows? Right, I can see the lead blee now your eyeballs right now? Uh, goes on to say this. He goes on to say that, Um, the connection he founds. We later we're talking to our guest, Preston Pittman, who's been shot twice hunting turkeys, and he points out to say that like in the medical profession, you despite all the Westerns you watch, in the medical profession, they are not eager to dig pellets and bullets and stuff out of people. You remove the pellet or bullet if it's location is like of immediate concern, it's safer to leave it in there then it is to drag it out of there. Um, Jim Bridger, I'll point out carried a uh. I think it was a steel broadhead. I can remember the steeler flint in his shoulder blade for two years before a guy dug it out. And I think the guy that dug it out was the He was like part of the Whipman massacre and dug it out. And some people say it was like the first official surgery, like the first Western style euro European style surgery to occur in the American wessels, when you know, like performed by a doctor. When Bridger had this thing yank cut out of his shoulder blade, but you generally leave him in there. But he does say folks who have retained bullet fragments should be aware that lead toxicity can occur over a long period of time and blood levels can be monitored if they are aware of the risk. It is not an immediate thing. You can have a bunch of shotgun pellets in you in a long time could go by and all of a sudden you start to develop lead issues from carrying not in your stomach, not words in your digestion track where it's like slowly dissolving and your muscle can lead to trouble. So if you're carrying around a bunch of ammo. Consider that, and plenty of people are man. I was surprised by this. Gunshot wounds and estimated hundred and fifteen thousand injuries in the United States per year or non fatal bullet removed. He goes on to say bullet removal is not routinely indicated for victims of gunshot injuries with retained bullet fragments, which are called rbfs, unless it could be caused immediate morbidity damn. So Robert Apernathy and uh Press and Pittman should both get there checked periodic lead checking. Are you not carrying around a babe from you were a kid? No? Well, I thought you were. Oh. Mark also says this, says, my personal experience with this comes as an ophthalmologist removing shotgun pellets from the face and orbits of trauma patients, I would say, most commonly after being shotgun during drug deals. He says that my hope is that the average outdoorsman is better at seeking good follow up care than those individuals. So maybe this will be useful information. I think, well, that Johnny, very useful information. Here's another one. This is really interesting, Guy Rode in it used to guide um he does remote maybe does did does remote white water canoe trips like extended whitewater canoe trips. And he says this isn't well known, but it's like known. But on a on a river in Canada's Northwest territories called the South Nahani River, there is a cave that holds the full skeleton full skeletons of over one hundred dollar sheep that accumulated there from two thousand years ago to about two hundred years ago. And it's a The cave entrance is downward sloping. All the sheep or at the bottom of the slope. The plausible theory is that that slope would become icy and the sheep could make their way down in they'd walk down into the cave, but then not be able to ascend the icy slope. And he said, laying on the top of those one dollar sheep skeletons when he was there is a porcupine dead on top of them. He said, look like he was up there feeding on them. All. That reminds me. You know, that's such a long period of time, right, So you have a hundred sheep that died over potentially eight hundred years. When I was at the I went to my first date with my wife. We went to the Librea tar pits in l A. And um, we're kind of like, neither of us was from there, but we went there. Um, and it's a whole long story. I was living an anchorage, she was living. She was there for work, and I went down. We went to libraa tar pits and and there they have you know, they have they have a display I think of a hundred and seventy dire wolf skulls that came out of those pits, many short like, many short faced bears, many mammoths, dozens and dozens of um, ancient bison forms, everything, giant ground sloss, everything just died in Librea tar pits. And when you look at when you read these numbers, by all this stuff that accumulating these tar pits, which is like a downtown Los Angeles, you think that you'd go there and just be like man like dead stuff everywhere, like had you gone there a long time ago. But they're saying one occurrence every I think I might get this wrong, but it's something like this, one occurrence every forty years would have accounted for everything in there in occurrence being this baby mammoth um get stuck in the tar. Okay, a sabertooth cat goes out to scavenge it, he gets stuck in the tar. Some vultures go to eat on them and they get stuck in the tar. And then nothing needs to happen for forty years. And you let that go for like tens of thousands of years, and you wind up with where you dig down a guitar pit and it's whatever, fifty feet of packed bone. But it's not like you know, it's just like now and then now and then. So yeah, once every couple hundred years a doll sheep falls into this cave. But then you go there and it looks like holy ship. Yeah. I don't know if you guys remember a long time ago we had on a guest who he was an anthropologist. Um Matt that Hell's that guy's name? Really interesting. He was an anthropologist who um, among other things, like, he would look for you know, lithic remains from up and up and high mountain passes and stuff. You look for lithic remains of ice age hunters and other things, not melts or but another another anthropologist anyhow, he was explained to us that when you're trying to interpret ancient kill sites, people look at the bones and people make wild extrapolations about people make wild extrapolations like, oh, the skull was upside down. It must have been ceremonial, you know, and you're saying, man, you don't know. And one of these he was explaining is we'll just take uh dear and put it in order to staying like how to interpret bone dispersal, bone decay, you know, in order to interpret ancient archaeological sites, they'll just lay a deer out in the woods and then monitor it day to day to see like what what what do we see happens? You know, how far do the bones go, what happens all the bones? Why, how does the school get flipped over or whatever, and just to kind of get a better sense. So when you're deconstructing a ancient kill site, you kind of can recognize what's normal was not normal, and there's this this thing happened back in that we're looking at and thinking about. Is they were doing it with human remains as is sort of what's the word I'm looking for? Forensic? Yea forensic like forensic pathology, or something. He's like body farms for you know, if I don't know, if you discover someone who's you know, you uncover like a skeleton, rates of decay, like how long has it been there? What happened to this body? Like? And uh, John McPhee once wrote a piece about forensic entomology where how how investigators can use the rate at which like larva and stuff develops on on human remains to get a sense of time of death on crime stein investigations. So anyways, they're doing this thing years ago and they had all these that they had human bones laid out in the woods to see what happens to and they had a camera on it, and we're surprised to see, uh deer. Deer would come up and gnaw the bones. So there's there's this footage of a deer chewing up a human rib bone. Yeah, it's just like hanging out of its mouth a cigar. And it talks about how um according to study, like unguluts off and chew on bones. Now usually we see these chewed up bones and I was like, oh, it's porcupines, it's mice. Whatever the hell. Unguluts chew on bones and they prefer dry bones with a rectangular cross cut. But this is the first instance ever deer chewing on a human bone. But I guess it is interesting thing of um when you like when they eat weird stuff and sething. I were just talking a minute ago about it was some years ago. It was a really famous trail cam image. There's a white tailed doll coming through the woods and stops and starts eating nestlings, eating, but I think they're Robbins. Starts eating nestlings out of a nest, plucks one out and eats it, which really makes you think differently about your deer meat. That does me man, Like we had that turkey the are day with that giant slug in his crop. I thought different to that turkey after that, really, I thought different of them. Like Robert was saying about that turkey kill with all those green and oles, thirteen green and oles in it. What's a green and all thirteen of him? Wasn't it thirteen? Yeah? I'm making that up. No, that's right, he's having a feast. Oh yeah. I would have been like, yeah, I'd still eat him. I'd be a little bit like but would you. I'd rather be like like flowers grains baker. Yeah, but like you eat stuff like would you eat like a deep fried annal? I haven't, but listen, I'd eat it. I just would think differently of it. I think differently if I opened up a bear, black bear, and I found that he had a bunch of people meet in it, I would think differently of the bear. Mean, yeah, okay, anyhow, go ahead, seth um, tell him more about what we're talking about. There's a guy from Montana that rode in and said that he shot a starling with an air rifle. Was it my kid? There's there's a few questions I have about this. I think this must have been my kid that wrote in he shot he shot a starling with an air rifle. One winner under a crab apple tree in his neighbor's yard. So he's shooting over into his neighbor's yard. Sounds like your boy again, this is my boy. Whitetail deer came in to the yard to eat crab apples and found the startling that he shot. Um deer picked it up in his mouth and appeared to be chewing on it. That night, he recovered the starling from his from his neighbor's yard. Like under the cover of darkness, presumably another question I have. Yeah, so he went over there. I'm guessing it dark wuntil it gets good and dark. Yeah, hopefully they're friends. And I saw that the head of the starling was gone. The deer had eating it. Hm. And I mean you go on YouTube and google deer eating birds. It's just there's no shortage of videos um of deer eating birds on their God, that's unusual, man. Yeah, it's like, what, well, maybe it isn't. That's what I was saying, unusual seeming because by what mechanism like when you look at their dental structure, it's just it's hard to you know. And maybe I was saying the spencer earlier, maybe dear a little more opportunists to geters and what we think as far as like eating meat. Uh. Our next guest though, one am. I remember a long time ago I was saying that the only thing that should be allowed to be on Instagram is um wild Turkey Doc. Like Instagram should just be that you download the app and you open it up in his wild Turkey Doc. And that's what Instagram is like. No one else should be allowed to be on there. If there was public outcry and people like there has to be one more Instagram page. I'll be like, okay, Nature's Metal, Um, we will allow Nature's Metal. It'll be that, It'll be Wild Turkey Doc. They can take turns, but Nature's Medals more is far more prolific than Wild Turkey Doc. It's my favorite, favorite favorite Instagram page. And what brings this full circle is that there was recently a video of a of a young elk eating a gosling for you, For you folks that I'm sure if you're sitting there on your phone right now, you gotta go, like go to Nature's Medal. Um. It is sometimes it's like I have strong it's sometimes too much for me. It is predominantly um our. Next guest Rick, who started and runs Nature's Metal, can explain, but it's predominantly I would like, there's a human element now, like once in a great while there is sort of like a human element, like there's like humans enter the scene on Nature's Medal now and then, but generally it's wildlife. It's like wildlife on wildlife of just some of the most like graphic reminders of I don't want to say brutality because that has a moral that sounds like moral common name graphic reminders of reality, yeah, of predation, of what goes into being alive, of the just giving of zero as about the well being of your prey in the animal world. Just I'm doing a horrible job, a truer documentation of the circle of life more than oftentimes I wasna saying, like I have a pretty strong something oftentimes is more than I care to see, more than I care to see. And you'll see when you go on there that it has a very next to if like um, like uh, I don't know, like a port of graphic Instagram page. It has more censored tabs than anything I follow, not that I followed that didn't come out right. I'm guessing there are no corner I don't know what I mean. You know, there's no extent to the Internet. There's no end to it. But I don't know about anything like that on Instagram. But if there was, you can imagine it would be highly censored, is what I'm getting at. And this has a there's a lot of like what do you call it, like vie were discretion, You're a discretion, You're discretion and you think but it's just animals. It's like, how is it sensitive? You think that it's animals doing things to animals? Why is that? Why is that sensitive? That's like the six or four thou dollar question. I think it begs that question, why are we censoring? It's like I don't know what animals could do? Bad things? Yep, huh. So we're joined by Rick, who is the founder brains behind I'm guessing daily the Daily Touch, the curator at nature is at Thanks for joining us, Rick, Yeah, thanks for having me. How do you why? Like why and how did this become a thing that how did this become like your life's calling here to to find this stuff and put it out there for the public. So when I was a kid, I couldn't get enough of those shows, like all the nat GEO stuff anything on PBS. But they would always cut like it would show the chase, and then it would never show like what happens, Like oh they just did they become friends and you know you never see them again, like or what happens and you never see like what really, there's nothing nice about what's happening. So yeah, they would cut to the feeding. There's a chase and it's unresolved. But then like later there feeding like what but there's like a chapter missing. Yeah, totally right, So that that was part of it. That's definitely part of what we wanted to showcase the entire story. I feel in my bones that it is disingenuous and a disservice to animals and the animal kingdom in general that people don't show this stuff. But we also like try and stay away from certain things, Like I get a lot of submissions about like things that I cannot show on Instagram that will get me kicked off, and that's those are things that we learned from the other accounts getting taken down and stuff. Are you allowed to give us an example of something? There's one. There's one that I get sent every couple of weeks of a crocodile somewhere in Africa with human remains in its mouth, swimming down like a river or something. But like it's the guy's head and arms sticking out of the crocodile's mouth. It's just something I can't I can't show that. Man, the account is has reached the point where I would like to keep it as I can. Yeah, how many followers do you currently have on your account? It's insane. That's around three million, three point one. I think it's above that. I see Crean's notes that she has that you. So you have a long relationship with with photography too, because I didn't know this about you. You were metal band photographer. I was in metal bands for a long time, like for twelve years of my life. While I was doing this account, it was like my my I would do my day job. I'd be a rehearsal for three hours, and then I'd go home and try and figure out what I was gonna post tomorrow or something. And at the same time as I was doing all that, I've met all these other musicians and I would just show up to their shows end up taking pictures, and then I bought a camera so i'd have something better than cell phone photos, and then it progressed from there. That's also where the name comes from. To the music that I like is metal. It's always gonna be that until I'm ninety years old. It will be metal. I don't want to miss you. Usually when people say that something's ironic, it's not. So I'm trying to think this is actually ironic, but I don't know. Someone listen, listen to my sentence and tell me you think this is ironic or not. You were inspired originally by what you felt were omissions in the sort of nat geo ish where I'm using this as a sort of like a like a placeholder for you know, high end nature documentary that nat Geo was leaving out part of the story, and you were filling in those blanks. But now you get this is an ironic. Now you get material from the people who are capturing that material, and they're giving you the stuff that like, they won't let me use this. Uh it's too graphic for my outlet, it's too graphic for the media place I work with. It has to be out there. I'll send to this guy. I don't know it was ironic, you know what. That's That's a great point. There's not a lot of things that we won't show, but it's there are things that we can't. I understand why Nagial kind of censors themselves. Not everybody's into that graphics stuff. My limits are not their limits. My limits are like human humans being killed by some animal. That's my limit. I'm not showing that. Uh Rick, What was the most impactful post you've ever shared on Instagram. The first one Joe Rogan reposted it was a woodpecker drilling its beak into these baby doves, like just hammering it right into them. Really got a very nice post. You never saw that one still up on the page. It's right at the bottom. It was the first one that Rogan went crazy. He went he went nuts. He reposted on his Instagram. The account went crazy then, right and I thought it was over. I thought, I was like, that's really cool. I'm really happy that happened. But then he goes on his podcast a couple of days later and starts talking about it, and then it really went crazy. So from there, that's that's where we got our all of our traction came from. That one post elevated the account to where it is now. Basically, while Steve is trying to find that I'm watching it right now. It's too much for me. That's brutal. Yeah, it's too much for me. Describe what you're seeing or what you can't stomach. What species is that? My Initially, I mean it's a it's a woodpecker species. It's in a cactus, so it's down south. He's got a bird nest in a cactus and it's just just gradually like like very aggressively woodpeckering a baby bird. It's not dying quickly, and it's also consuming head matter as it just Yeah, it's a bit much. Not not in a bad way, not in a bad way. I just I wouldn't show my kids, Yea. I wouldn't expect anybody to. I share some of your posts with my kids, but I don't let them do is then just start cruising around looking. I like share them like here's a thing and then this is over. Does everybody understand, like we're gonna look at this and that's it, and we look and we go away. You know that's understandable. Man, Who are some famous followers that you have? Like, do you have a list celebrities that interact with the account? The most famous, I would say the woman, the person with the most followers that interacts with us. Well, Connor McGregor has interacted with us more than one time, like comments wise that we have, like some comments back and forth, what ever, just like fun things. It's just crazy to be talking to someone like that. But the guy with the most followers that follows us has to be Bieber. It's gotta be Justin Biebers. The most surprising one of all of them is him, and he's actually reposted us before, which is like the craziest thing. Nature's Metal was on BuzzFeed because of Justin Bieber because he got in trouble for it because he posted on them with a tire with a monkey in its mouth and he shared it. What the fund you doing? Justin's that Canadian connection you guys have. What is your attitude towards fake images? And have you ever been duped? Yeah, and in the beginning we were. Now my eye has gotten a lot better, but it happened a couple of times. I'm not gonna say all of them were, but one I remember for sure is, um, these walls are trying to take down this bison, and the bison hit the wolf sent it flying right. I was like, well, that's really cool photo. Totally fake. Oh yeah, I wanted it to be real. I posted it like it was real, and it was a couple of years ago. It's not on our account anymore, but I had a couple of people that I message now to verify photos. Is this even possible? Because it damages our integrity by posting something that isn't true, and that's the last thing I want to do is post something that's fake. I actually got called out a couple of months ago because there's a photographer this notorious for staging his photos, Like he'll send he'll put a mouse on like a branch of a tree and just like basically feed a wild snake and just start taking photos of it. They have been caught doing this. He's been caught doing this a lot, but sometimes they sneak through. Now I know the guy's name, so I just make sure I don't post anything by him, because you can't. I don't know if they're true or not, but I just try and do my due diligence. You know a thing I often think about, um when when someone's in the business of soul shoulder the business of video, and they're very existence relies strictly on like an outside streaming or an outside video platform that's that's user generated. So we always talk about YouTubers, right, like, if you're a YouTuber and strictly a YouTuber, you're one policy decision away at YouTube from going extinct. And when you've built, like when you've done the work it takes and built this massive audience to consume something. You're still operating on a platform where you don't even have a seat at the table, right, Like, there's probably not even a courtesy call the day that you get shut down. But have you gotten to a point now where you have a diet that you're able to have a dialogue with the platform? Are you just sitting back trying to like figure out what they think and what their requirements are and you're operating in the dark as the how to like walk this razor's edge of compelling but not like to compelling. There is no communication with Facebook. Remember the monolith in two thousand one Space Odyssey. It's like trying to talk to that thing. They just exist. They just exist on their own and you don't get you don't get to speak to them. So to answer that question, it has gotten better, but it's still you're still like talking to the black wall. You're right, the policy decision could sink us tomorrow. We and we would have no warning and no recourse. So we're just hoping that we can expand, like we're trying to expand to different platforms if that ever happens. That could never could also never hop because there is all you said it earlier. Um, it's animals. These aren't These aren't malicious acts. These are animals doing it to animals, And that's why we try and stay away from humanity at all costs. Unless it's always wondered about that, man, But I hadn't thought about that element of it. Yeah, it gives you, like, it provides a certain groundcover. Man. Yeah, it's vital that we stick to animals because if as soon as we start showing humans getting hurt, that gives them grounds to at least in my mind. But because we're so big, like, because we've gotten to this point, we really have to watch where we step to stay alive. What in your mind is the most compelling criticism of what you do? Like, what is the criticism that you think like, oh, yeah, I can see that there's something there. This actually wasn't a criticism directed to me. It was directed at some It was directed at a photographer that posted something that we ended up using. His said, you're doing the animals of this service by showing them act in these primal ways because people would think that they were lesser. Me. Yeah, I think that was his point. Um, I actually did read that comment, and I thought about it for a while, and I'm not I'm not sure he's wrong, and I won't say he's wrong, but what I am sure of is not showing it kind of creates this like fantasy world where they don't do that, and I that's the one thing I don't want to do. Too much for one person is educational to someone else. They need to know. Some people just need to know these things. Do you know that half of my audience did not I wouldn't say half a lot of them didn't know dear shed their rattlers every year. Mhm. They had no idea. That's like so soft core compared to what we do, but it's very people were riveted by did no idea. So things like that just extrapolate that to other things, like you were talking about deer eating birds, squirrels do that. There's so many ground animals that eat other animals that just isn't shown. People need to know that. People need to know that dead bodies in the wild. It's like it's like it's like dropping McDonald's in like a schoolyard. How long do you think that's gonna last in the school yard? Not long? That might be the worst analogy I've ever come up with. No, I'm tracking though, man like it. What's the ideal predator for you to post to, like guarantee engagement, like a shark, bear, croc lion, snake, something else. Bears are up there, definitely. I feel like we we showcase lions a lot, so they don't get the pop that they used to get. Tigers are big because there's not a lot of tiger footage. It's hard to come by, and it's hard to come by, um through the proper channels too, because you have we have to ask permission for everything we post on our on our page. Now, sharks for sure, but the highest one seems to be like, bears are like rare stuff like um, those uh, those Japanese hornets. Anytime we post anything about those Japanese hornets, it goes through the roof. But they're very hard to come by. The footage is hard to come by, So so your your audience is your audience is educated enough at this point that no one they're seeing something fresh. Oh yeah, there's people that have been following me from day one and I still get I still get comments it's like, oh, that's the first time you've ever showed that at Wolverine footage is hard, very hard to come by, which I would love to love to show those animals, but there's not a lot of footage that exists of them. They're very reclusive of the ship that you put on there. I would never see in real life. Like it gives me like I can go there to see things that actually happened that I would never see, Like I I don't know some of that stuff I would see, and some of it I will see in the future. But like like a crocodile, like killing an ana condor or something, I just don't foresee myself every visually like visually seen that in real life. But I can go to this page and see it. Yeah, well, I was thinking about it. It's like everybody wants to be like, oh, it's too much for me. It's too much for me. But if you booked yourself fancy ass trips to Africa on a photo of Safari and you had two outcomes, you come home and be like it was great, look at all these pictures of sunsets and these grazing antelope, and then uh, I even got a picture of a copulating pair of lions. I was wonderful or you can be like, dude, I was at this pond and that's the abro was there, and a croc was there in a buffalo and they all started eating each other and ripping each other apart, and holy ship, right, like what what do you think the average person wants to come back from that trip saying that they experienced, Yeah, the ladder. They want to see the crazy ship. You know, if you see some pigeons on a rock wall, like on a cliff face, and you see a right a rafter paregrin flying overhead, you're kind of rooting for the paragrin to come down to get one, because there's just something to there's something that either wants to witness it. But one of the things that like, there's there's a lot of reasons a lot of the photography on nature is meant like the photography is wonderful, Like there's a you know, a lot of it. I mean, some of it's just like ad hoc Joe blow right, but a lot of it's like skilled professionals taking amazing photos. So does that which is great just good quality imagery. And there's a bunch of other things I like about it. But one of the things that might not be immediate, like might not be readily. Um, that might not readily come to mind to people. Because I'm also interested in the audience, like I'm I'm as interested in the audience in the comments section is I am in the image, because what I find so peculiar is how the audience of nature is metal is so comfortable, even celebratory of suffering in the animal world, depending on where the suffering is coming from. It's like the most jovial, backslapping, happy, making funny jokes about something that is an excruciating pain, which is okay because the pain is caused by an animal. And you can only imagine if they were witnessing something that had a human hand in it, that joviality and happiness and like, yeah, get them, tear them to pieces, let's make funny captions that melts man. And I'm very curious in the human brain. Um, why one is so fun for people and the other one is so distressing? Uh. And that's not something you're ever going to answer, but I like to look at it and be like, why do why does that make people happy? They just like that suffering if it's coming from the right place. That's funny, and I don't get it. There is an answer to that, I don't have it. But when you look at that happening to a human, you could put yourself in that situation and be like, I don't want that to happen to me. But when it happens to an animal, it's like, wow, if if if that thing didn't do that, it wouldn't be eating, it would starve to death. That could I don't know that could be the answer. It is a it is a hard question to answer. Actually, yeah, and I don't I'm not posing this. I'm not posing this as any sort of condemnation of it because it's not where it's And I think, and I'll say this about I'll say this about Nature's metal, is that if you look at the totality, like the totality of the page, not not just any image, but you look at the totality of the page, I would argue that far and away it is a celebration of wildlife. It celebrates like tenacity, it celebrates a survival instinct, it celebrates strength, It celebrates diversity right like bio diversity. I think like in its whole, it is a the animal kingdom is amazing. It is mind boggling, It is gorgeous, it is stunning. This is a celebration of the animal kingdom. I don't buy that you would be a real serious like engage and have serious engagement with the page and come out somehow having a diminished I mean, someone could do this, but generally I think not have a diminished view of nature or have a thing where you think of animals would be more agreeable to animals going away because they do these bad things to one another. Like, I don't think that that's what that's I don't think that's what that's teaching people. I think it's like it is a in my mind, like a very clear celebration of when what coming from its creator is like a clear celebration of like holy cow, um, we live on a stunning planet with staggeringly beautiful things happening on it. So I don't mean when I bring up that, Yeah, when I bring up that idea about wondering about people, I'm really talking about audience. I'm not talking about the page. Yeah. At the end of the day, at its core, that is what nature is Metal is about. The it's the respect for the wild and the animals that survive in it, that they figured out this way of making their way through the world the only way they know how. And we we we have houses and air conditioning and all this stuff to protect us from the outside when they live in it, and they they have to have kids and protect their kids, and it's just it's insane. It is absolutely insane to me that anybody can look at that and not think that that is the most amazing thing in the world. It's it's mind boggling how they even how we even came out of that, and how how without technology and without our big gass brains we would be screwed, like absolutely screwed if we met the wrong animal. Anyway, you got their bloody Mary Oh no, grape food. JE drink I have. I'm probably the first person to ever drink. I drank it in two in two thousand and four in Portland, I had some kambusa made in the girl's kitchen named Abbey. Second person she'd drank it first. Nobody knew what that ship was back there thousand before. Man um Rick from Nature's Metal. And how do you find Nature's Metal? You go to Instagram type in Nature's Metal. Easy find it one word. Rick is Metal, Rick Nature's Metal. Thanks a lot, everybody, Lady and gentlemen. Thanks Rick. Everybody. Tune in next week the Meteor podcast. Or you want to see some crazy stuff, go check out my Instagram. Check out sets tell what signs Underscore West. Yeah it's not crazy, but just pretty. I have some Nature's Metal stuff on there, at least one. Hey, but you don't have as a farmer defecating off a rolling tractor, which I have. I have a Neil guy hung up in the fence though. Here Ladies and gentleman seth worse follow him on Instagram. All right, thank you, everybuddy.