00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten in my case, underwear listening podcast. You Can't predict anything presented by on X Hunt creators are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play Store. Nor where you stand with on x Okay, tim slide, tell us what what we're gonna do. We're gonna really, we're gonna milk out the introduction. Tell what is an epidemiologist? I mean I kind of I mostly kind of know, but just but tell everybody. I'll tell you honest, Okay, the word doesn't have anything to do with the illness. Epi means around the most means people. Anology is to study of it. Somehow we've put disease is onto that, but it goes back to Aristotle, actually Hippocrates. In the old days, anything that was visited upon a population from outside, such as a plague or warts or something like that. Investigated. Words are visited from the outside. I'm sure they were. I mean, we didn't have warts yesterday. Now today everybody's got warts. I mean they just give using this example. So diseases have taken over epidemiology, but the original word did had nothing to with diseases because they didn't know about them. They had some spectacular ideas about where diseases came from. But the miasma was actually started by Hippocrates in a sort of a pretty reasonable way. Before that, it was the stars, demons, gods who were displeased with the evils of mankind, all kinds of devils and so on, causing disease. Indeed, But then Hippocrites came along and said, look forget the supernatural, think of natural. So if you if you're living in a swampy area, you look at those people and again in more chance of having fevers and the people who live on a nice clear mountaintop. He was right, but it wasn't the smell and the swamp that did it. It was the mosquitoes that lived in the swamp. So he had the right solution. But at least he brought supernatural down to natural. But we had miasma lasting until really the mid eighteen hundreds, until like Pasteur and Carr came along and found bacteria for the first time. So it's my it's myasthma, not miasma. You can pronounce it anyway you like. But that concept was the idea that there was just bad air, bad air, And of course we get bad are with malaria in Italian bad air, so we still used the word bad air in the in the name of in the malaria. Isn't it wild that they were just getting like wiped out by malaria, not making the connection between that mosquitoes for hundreds and hundreds of years, and they knew the connection between stagnant, stale collected water and disease, but I didn't know why. So they made the right solutions, but for the wrong reason. What tell me what, where? Where? So you're not a bidemiologist, he tell us what it means? Where where do you practice? What is your what is your career? Virtually anyway, especially is food born diseases. But my colleagues are sometimes clinical epidemiologists, and they help physicians in the hospitals run randomized controlled trials. In occupational health epidemiologists who are really trying to study diseases in the workplace, because remember, workers exposed to ten hundred times more problems than the citizens are, so normally the diseases emerge more in a worker working in a mine and a forest and a slaughter house wherever it is. They're exposed to much more chemical plants, pharmaceutical plants. It's the workers where diseases begin to show up first, So we study there. Why why is that? Because they're they're they're they're exposed to more. I mean, if you're packing I don't know, let's take viagra in a pharmaceutical plant. You're breathing in this dust and a eight hour shifts every day for for thirty years. You're exposed to farm or this incidental chemical than somebody using the citizenry and we just buy one a couple. I'm using viagra as a strange example, but you can see that they're exposed to far more. People working in the vinyl chloride industry making polyvinyl chloride PBC, those people were began to fall like flies for a very rare liver disease uh hem angioma that only affects people who work in the PVC industry. Really, yeah, because it's a it's a polymer plastics of polymers, right, You get gases and liquids and you polymerize and again to make a solid. That's where polyvinyl chloride, vinyl chloride is a is a gas. It's highly carcinogenic, but the molecules together you get polyvinyl code which is pretty stable until you get incinerated at the end of its life, then it could produces fear ends and dioxidants. So it's dangerous at the beginning when you're making it, dangerous at the end when you're burning it, but it's okay in the middle. So this, this is probably a misconception I had about Remember I told you I knew all about it. I was gonna have you tell you honest, I didn't know about it. I had the misconception that I thought epidemiology what that you only looked at infectious diseases that like spread from person to person In the early days, Steve, you would be right, and people worried about plague, and they're worried about horrible diseasely anthrax and typhoid and that, And it's still a major part of things. I mean, those diseases haven't gone away. It's still around. But more and more epidemiology looks at at even accidents. You look at heart disease and cancers. Now we have a few infectious cancers. Cancers are round The first one was the feline leukemia virus, and that was a virus that can infect something called cancer human papuloma virus, which you know, you get your kids vaccinated for HPV and it's almost will wipe out uh future um, cervical cancer. Yeah, that's the one that's like a little bit controversial because people feel that little kids will get vaccinated and they will be more likely to become like sexually promiscuous. No one that they're don't. Yeah, it's like it's kind of like funny logic where there's a thing like you can get um, what's called h HPV HPV, So you can vaccinate your child for a is it? Is it a neural disease? It's a virus. The virus spread through sexual contact. Yeah, but you've got to get the kids before the first contact with with the virus, which means guaranteed before the first sexual contact. That's right. And some people argue like, oh, I don't want my kid to get it because then they'll be like the only thing keeping their kid from being sexual is the fear of HPV apparently, and so then you give them pretty much Yeah, I just see this, like I see this idea of floating aroun out there. It always strikes me as funny. Um, you specialize in food born, how do you I've had a number of food born things that I'd like to talk about, But how how do you how do you sort of encapsulate what would be food born? Is it like does it does it mean like that you have to ingest it? Or is it exposure to like like is it exposure to the food system that you could get or does it have to does food born illness have to mean that you like you physically ingested it in your mouth and swallowed it. Food born that's food or water that gets ingested. There were something diseases with you. You You can even like like tillermia for example, you know rabbit feba. That's where I was going with this. H That one is a main food going east. But you can also get it who cuts on the skin and through inhaling through an aerosola. That's a very versatile organism. But mainly it's food bones disease. You're ingesting it, whether it's a toxin and the food, whether it's a bacteria, a parasite of fungus or virus. Just to just to play an old chemical, the old food bones, diseases. I want to walk through a whole bunch of diseases I'm interested in. And then it apply to sort of outdoor people, um, and don't want to start with to laremia because there's a thing like you guys can bat me up on this. People sort of have this idea. People have this idea there's something wrong with rabbits, right, but something wrong with rabbits before the first freeze of the year. And there's all sorts of old wives tales about dude I carried around with him. My kid killed a rabbit the other day. It was a little stick bow and it's like, well, he's walking around with it all. I mean, like like I would argue overhandling it. And it's summertime, and I'm like, you know, I know from growing up the one dacent handle a rabbit before the first frost. And then I remember get a couple of years ago about a guy that ran over uh, like a desiccated rabbit. What is lawnmower and got like an aerosolized to lama in his lungs. Yeah, walk us through like what's wrong, what's wrong with rabbits? And when it's not just rabbits. In fact, if you track it right down to his origin the reservoir, if you want to call it that. For a disease in this case is the tick. Usually ticks. See the ticks. The rabbits happened to be close to the ground. The rabbits happened to pick up more ticks than most other animals out there, so they become infected with it. So that if you catch your rabbit, and you skin a rabbit, you touch your rabbit, you run over to the loan moow whatever. You're either gonna have contact with the skin, you're gonna breathe in the aerosol, or if you do cook it up and you have a it vibe during the preparation of it, you get that bacteria Franccella tolransis. You're gonna ingest it into your body and it's taken the body in somewhere or another. If it's on the skin, you'll get a like an ulcer rather nasty in the injurated ulcer. I feel an ulcera in this type if you don't have to enter through a cut. That's how it does. It's a very active little bacteria franccella and and just through a cut. And most people got cuts on the skin. You don't notice about it. And so that's the skin form, which is easily easy to treat. Less easier to treat is the inhaled form. So it forms a far form of chronic pneumonia, quite nasty. And then if you eat the meat you can get a gas intestinal disease. It's a very versatile organism you find at the loathplace. But the ticket is where you go first. Okay, walk me through the life cycle of a tulering, of of a of a tuler in your bacteria. Like, so if you had a rabbit that lived like if you had a rabbit that lived in sort of isolated somehow you could isolate a rabbit from ticks. Right, So he's living a normal rabbit life, eat normal rabbit stuff, but for whatever reason, this is a magical land where he doesn't come into contact with the tick. He never gets to aremia if he's not bitten by a mosquito, because there's another way to transfer the organism and he doesn't come across mice or rats, and maybe field mice, deer mice or something like that, which you can also carry it, and the rabbits don't normally eat these things, so that's yeah, you're right if he doesn't get bitten or by a tick or mosquito and thatsn't gonna be content. Yes, he would be fertily free. Can you get rabbit? Let's say you're hanging out, a mosquito bites a rabbit, and then the mosquito bites you. That doesn't transmit to luremia, right, Uh, Well, the mosquito would have to have been bitten, have to have bitten something first, another infective rabbit or other animal to infect the rabbit doesn't come from just the mosquito or the tick. I mean it's it has to have bitten some other animals. So the reservoir, the big reserve war is the wildlife out there now. Of course, if you get it, you're not going to transfer to anybody else unless you give blood or unless somebody eat you. Cannibalism, that's very rare. But why is it known as rabbit fever? I never heard of anybody. People aren't don't exercise caution when they're cleaning squirrels out of fear of getting to aremia. Squirrels can get it too, so can the smaller rodents as well, larger animals too. In fact, they've even found it in the birds, water birds there, you know, cranes and things. And I believe there's some people who say they found it in fish too. There's an example of tularemia just in California a couple of years ago with a fish hook. Apparently the fish hook was in a fish and somebody then sort of trying to cast the hook again got caught in somebody's skin, and that was the origin of the Franciella organism. Again. Yeah, this is a very a fly tied out of rabbit here. Anythink about that? Oh I don't. I don't, fisherman, I don't like thinking about that one bit. I tie with rabbit hair all the time. I will tan my own rabbit hides to make flies. Well, the hair is not going to be a problem. It's the flesh its you gotta deal with theory, You gotta get a deal with the flesh. You get the hair. Just cooking rabbit meat kill toulremia. Do you know what you happen to know? I'll forgive you if you don't. At what temperature Tularemi gets killed? Oh, it's not free heat stable, So technically probably about hunting forty five, but I would take it up to about a hundred and sixty to be on the safe side, because you can can't really be sure you're killing everything in the hundred and sixty. A lot of magic, a lot of magic when when it comes to food, A lot of magic happens around one sixty. Don't you also lose a lot of magic out of some foods. You're going to take it to one sixty, that's a given, that's a given. Take yeah, absolutely, an Elk stakes steak taken to one sixty is gonna be like shoe leather. Well, yeah, you could try. You know what's coming in now is the souvied method of cooking. Oh yeah, man, about a hundred forty but for a long time period. But that needs that needs a microbiologists to begin to say, look at you can cook with your this thing. It needs say two and a half hours to kill the bacteria off. I mean, you know, I think you've had have you what do you you've had tricks? Be in Yanni here, both of you have we're positive. Well now we even got t shirts and that may have been a great piece of semi raw beef at that moment. But there's a problem with it, you know, so they're taken up to the reasonable temperature or your radiating it or really freezing it, and freezing doesn't work all the time with trichinosis because some new strains now in the Arctic area. That's what I want to because so we're jumping into trick and nosis right now, we're just going we're going for well, we're struggling with with our little trick nosis problem, which really isn't that bad. It's a bad wheat, but it causes a lot of psychological harm because because you know you don't you don't have you can't like ask your body what happened to him when he had it. So it's unnerving, but in the end, in hindsight, it's not a big deal. However, it can be a big deal. You can kill you, right, it can kill you. But for most people it's it's mild and achey and joint pain and so on it but if it gets in the eye and the liver and the heart and stuff like that, it can be bad news. It can be bad. There was an outbreak in two eight in California, an outbreak outbreak, thirty nine people met to sample bear meat. Sounds about right, and all of those are the epitem beyond. So they had met for something else. Now they had a feast for bear meat, and there was some would only cooked bear meat, and the majority it's raw or semi cooked. And one of the people who had the uncooked the raw meat developed trickonosis. Really and the studies were fascinating. For example, not much meat left. I never even heard about this, didn't. I'll send you the I'm not calling the whole thing. But they took, they took, they all the meat they had left with some of the claw, the paw of the bear. And for one gram of that meat, they isolated seventies six or seventy eight trickin nosis worms and one gram that's about the size of a garbonza, you know, a chickpea. Now that's not the preddictive site for that particular organism. It really gets to the massata muscles, you know, the big chewing muscles, to the diaphragm and the heart, all those wondering parasites, that's where they go. So this is gonna tell you can I get can I one up you real quick. What's that? I had to send a chunk of my bear meat down to the CDC in Atlanta. It was well, I remember I calculated it out to the pound. There was six hundred thousand larva per pounds. Yeah, maybe that one open. Remember now remember now take it, take it next step. All of those larvae are going to get into your gut and your stomach acid is going to dissolve, the little cyst comes out. So now they're free swimming. The females about two millimeters, the males about one millivata, very very tiny in your gut. They're mating and each pair now produced thousands of larvae. To the microscopic they enter through the gut wall, through the blood supply, and go around the body. So by that time you've got billions of of larvae in you. Now from the hundreds of thousands that you eight, we're talking astronomical numbers here do they is? The heart is your heart and diaphragm and tongue. Did you say tongue when you talk about hot spots, tangi is one especially for tape worm. It's not, it's not. It's not a trick. Hot spot not a trick hospot nos this hot and to die from and tongue. Okay, is it is it that they Is it that it's a good habitat for them and they survive there? Or do they know where to go there? They don't know to go there. It's just the ones that go there do well. The circulation system runs into these tissues first. I mean, the het muscle needs a lot of fresh oxygenated blood, so it looked right from the lung. It gets into the heart the hot wall and so you're seeing are But I don't know why the mass of the muscle what a chewing muscles would be. It is the case for quite a few parasites wondering pasts, right, Yeah, you know where we felt the pain? Back me up, beyond me. But you're you're what am I touching right now? Nascapula No? No, shoulder blade? No, the muscle that like connects you shoulders you traps, yeah, don't not The only people can't hear you not? Yeah, I would agree with traps. Your calves yeah, the calves yeah, and then lower back yeah right, bat me up. That's where you could feel the pain. But I don't know that that really means that that's where the bugs are going. The worms, just the ones that are making their presence felt on You see. Now, if we we only had like basically a shishkbab type chunk each, that's how much I had, might have had more a couple of so we might have not made it to hundreds of thousands because we don't. We ate very little that day, just on the plane, coming down to their interest, I was looking at the range of meat bear meat that was eaten by these thirty nine people. They ranged from about a half an ounce to one person at twenty eight ounces. That person really liked that. Rob. If you figure it out to the next cycle of life, there into billions and billions of these things. Yeah, it's that guy was going. So what happens is that it forms an inflammation, but instead of an inflammation being a little local inflammation, the entire body is one massive inflammation. So you're your your your your chemicals that respond to you know, the cytokinds respond to all the inflammation by just making you it just a febrile, massive jelly, and so that do you kind of keep up with a blood pressure and the hot wood stop. That's what kills you, but it's unusual to be that amount. You know. What piqued my interest there is earlier I was saying, I think before we started record, I was saying that I had occasion to interact with the state epidemiologist in Alaska while this is going on, and we got to chat and he mentioned um that that there's sort of a famous version of Trigg analysis, or people always like, like I might mutilate the word like trick analysis. Spiralis trick anellos spirals for ellis, that's the regional one, okay. And he was saying, there are there are a variety of these. Everybody always says that one, but there's a variety of these. And he suggested that there are freeze tolerant specimens in the North, and even told me about a case he worked on where some people had eaten raw walrus that had been frozen for the winter and they thought it was safe because it was frozen, but in fact he he feels that they tracked the infection to raw walrus. What surprised me about this was two things. One that a walrus would be a potential carrier of trigger olysis. I don't know why that surprised me. But it seems unusual and um and too that that freezing doesn't kill it, because you often will see people say, uh, cook it or freeze it for a long time. And he was saying that he's a proponent of cooking, not trusting the freezing cooking. Or if you really want to be bold, radiation we'll do it as well. Cobalt sixty will do it. You won't hurt the meat, it'll kill if everything is in it. Is that something? Is that something people do? Oh? Yeah, we do it with the spices. For example. People don't know that the spices you behind the supermarket radiated really for food safety, for food safety, and in fact the public is would be up in arms about it because they think they're gonna turn you know, luminous at night or something, but it's not. Many countries do it for things like onions. You don't get onions sprouting, or potatoes won't sprout with cobalt sixty. Well, there's a number of isotopes you can do. You smells like an X ray machine, you know. You you put the food little packages, you run into the machine. Radio it comes at the other end. There's nothing, nothing, no radioactivity in the food. But just like the X ray has gone through your foot when you're x ray your foot, it's gone through the food, zapped everything alive in there. You can't do it with things like bean sprouts because you want the beans sprout to be alive, if you want the seats still to grow into you can't do something like that. But if you want to kill if anything it's alive and there you were irradiated, it's wonderful. It's done for the armed services all over the world. So you could take bear meat, run it through that whatever contraption they do this in, and then just have like they would have to figure out for that particular tricknella exactly how much the what the intensity would be for that. Once you've got that soulted out, that's and you'll be safest. Houses Then you can eat all the role bay meat you want to take. Taste wouldn't change, would you be safe. So one thing we've been talking about lately, UM, because we tend to talk about trick mills is probably too much, UM, is that you mentioned su vied cooking and uh and I've read and people have emailed me various things where people are like, oh, you can you know, instead of hitting one sixty or one sixty five, you can actually kill it at one forty for a pro long period of time. Is this sort of is information like that? And and and if you don't know the exact numbers, that's fine, I'm not asking to give them. But is information like that, uh set forth in some sort of official way around suvied and trigger nosis? Like are you aware of someone formally saying yes, six hours at one forty absolutely safe? Is that? Are these numbers still a little bit elusive? They're very elusive. I don't know the answer for trickonosis. I don't know anybody does. But we were talking about and I think it's a good way to go. They it's the whole process is new. It's in the last what a couple of decades of people have been interested in doing this and so, but you need to be look at every single one of those organisms. There's about two hundred and fifty agents to give you foodball and disease, and each one of them would have to be assessed because you're right at the margin, you're right at the edge, I mean a minute to a minute or two too short in time and you can have problems a degree or to too low in temperature. You're right on the edge of the thing. So you've got to be really sure about the science of it. But once it's down for all of these agents, then then people stick to it. I think it's gonna be okay. And then maybe somewhere in their trick and Ella will be tested for that as well. This is kind of an obvious question. Well, no, it's not, because I only know the answer to it. When pick any kind of thing. That pick your favorite food born pathogen that dies at a certain temperature, what happens that? Like, like why does it die? What happens to some of these things like you boil water to sanitize water, whatever, like, like what goes on with the organism that makes it that it can't get you sick anymore. The main thing is protein. He's taking egg. You put in the frying pan, it's still moving around. Heat it up to it about a hundred and forty three f whether the temperature is I'm converting from celsius to ferrenheit, and suddenly the protein coagulates, becomes white, protein becomes a solid, doesn't function as a protein. You can all kinds of protein chains act separating and connecting. Again, there was proteins useless and we're all made a protein. So mainly it's the heat that's disabling the protein every single time, and that whatever the protein is, you're trying to disabled it temporarily slightly different for each one. This is why mad how disease was a mystery, because we found out that's a protein. It's a pure protein, it's not even a virus or anything. But but we find that you can heat that to two temperatures that no other protein on the planet would survive. And yet this thing does heard about. I heard about some politician it was said, and it was a private meeting on one name who said it. But he had said, you talk about c w D wasn't an issue because we'll just everybody had to cook their dear meat more. And some guys like you got to cook your dear meat the four thousand degrees you gotta ash it. That's what. In fact, we've got examples of of probes used by a brain surgeon just to explore your brain. And for somebody who was suffering from early stages of courts for Yakupt disease, the human c g D and that's all had happened is probe stainless steel probe just went into the brain and then they sewed him back up and he's fine. The probe was was went through hospital sterilization three separate times. You know that's a fifteen pounds pressure. That's a hundred twenty one See that's two hundred and fifty f right for fifteen minutes. It'll kill off everything on the planet. This was still infective after three of those cycles. Animals you could give the c you know that can mac out disease to hamsters three times, So you can't destroy this thing. Uh, Sam, are very own special? Sam Longering, explain, how are you leaving chickenhalysis? Yeah, I have I can't leave chuck have that. Man. I'm just trying to move through a lot of sicknesses. But I want to we we got it in twenty thirteen, I believe. So now I have billions of cysts and some of my major muscle groups. What's uh, After a while, if nobody eats you, right, they tend to calcify, they tend to become non viable. So even if somebody would take a lump out of your your your calf muscles, they wouldn't suffer from it. At what point by now? I think it varies quite a bit. There's been some work downe in animals because you can't really experiment on humans too much. It worked on animals, and I think it begins to a year or two and they're pretty much sure it's gone. Oh that's it. Yeah, man, it's just I've been thinking to myself as trick. Pause. But you may get exceptions to the rule in nature. Don't underestimate modern nature. That was exceptions that somebody's going to keep them alive longer. You know what passes along to your colleagues. Um, we know our infection date, Like we can tell you the day, like the day we got that we ingested the meat, and when did you first have the symptoms? A month later, a month later, we can tell you the day. We we have to dig around, we could get you to the day. We can tell you the day we ingested the meat. We could tell you the day that we had the onset of symptoms. And the first symptoms were not like the lot of symptoms were they know we have. We didn't have first symptoms. You know, it evolved. I first started thinking that. I first started feeling like I had like uh, just like just but everything happened at the month into it. A month into it, no, nothing happened, and four of us got sick. Nothing happened to any of us until a month later, and then we like simultaneously had There was some common themes, some variants from person to person, but some strong common themes of muscle fatigue, and then we all got we all got better pretty quick, and then we know, like so we were like a CDC reported case. They had the meat point being if you were talking to any colleagues and they want to do a biopsy, um, app would love to do it. If someone wanted to check where they got a known infection date and they wanted to see what's going on inside my calves or whatever, I would love to do a biopsy. I'd give them a chunk of myself too. Yeah, me and Yanny. Well the need is say about the point one of Grahams would love to do it. If you ever run into if you're ever at a conference and run into someone who's interesting, trick, well, the only you after about half a month to three weeks, you get gas intestinal upset. Yeah, and then it goes away a little bit. And then once the little larva begin to spread throughout the system, that's about a month. And then you begin a month or two and you begin to get the muscle aches and pains, joint pains and so on. Yeah, but you could just get like the gastro intestinal upset. You know, that just happens for a thousand reasons, right, So that might you might not didn't even know that. Yeah, we all might even had didn't pay attention to it, like you get like, you know whatever, you have a bad day, and um, but it wasn't the thing that really a month later is when we really started texting me to take your blood as well. I do a blood test. They're looking for prology, look for antigen to this particular parasite and also for what they call EA cinephilia. And I was looking for a certain kind of white blood cell that when you have a parasite, it's suddenly they're in vast numbers. It's not normally they're in vast numbers. Parasites trigger the cinephiles in your blood. There's a lot of blood work can be done as well as biopsies in order to tell that something's going on. Okay, go on more. No, that's that's what I'm happy. What I wanted to hear. Okay, Sam, explain the work you were doing that led us to get to talking about our guests too. Yeah, I was. Um. Guy used to work for Lantania back Country Hunters and Anglers taught me a trick where we're out fishing and you catch a trout is kind of a a trick. It's not really a trick. Um. Oh yeah, nice. Um, No, we're just out fishing. You catch a trout and chop it up and put in a bunch of lime juice and holpenos and parsley and eat it with chips afterwards, and just it is vicha. Um, that's that's what we call it. But everybody freaks out every time you talk about that. And then you wrote an article about it. Yeah, well I wrote an article about it several years ago. We we published a recipe for it in that country journal when I was there, and we got that. We got a lot of letters saying, oh, you shouldn't tell people to do that. It's so dangerous. Fresh we can't eat freshwater fish raw like across the board. You can't eat freshwater fish raw, and so and we did it again this spring. I posted some pictures of it and people freaked out again, and so I was like, Okay, I'm gonna look into this because you're not dead. I'm surprised I'm not dead too, especially with what you read online. I mean, there was a there was one article from Vice News that the headline was like, eating freshwater fish will kill you. Dude, that's go for all my news about food, all my wild game information. It's bullet bulletproof, bulletproof, and they're not trying to scare you at all. Um. So I started looking into it, and the surface level review of it corroborated what everyone had said that pretty much anywhere you look, people are gonna say freshwater fish is not okay to eat raw. But I kept digging and kept digging and kept digging and found Tim. One of Tim's responses on this website Cora about about freshwater fish, and he said almost the opposite thing, that there are much more problems with marine fish than there are with freshwater fish. And uh so I reached out through a number of different mechanisms. Is he not good about getting back to people? No, he was, I was just on deadline, yelled at him right now, no, no, And and then we had a great conversation with about that, and he and and someone as esteemed in his professions him told me the exact opposite thing from whatever everybody told me what I was reading online, and made me feel really good about eating freshwater fish raw and really sketched out about sushi. And and then I told I told you that this guy's a knows a lot about food born illnesses. And we talked about trichinosis and tulimia and a bunch of things, and I thought he'd be a great podcast guest. Yeah, so I wanna we can take turns. I want to ask about specific things that like that I hear about fish okay uh In southeast Alaska, it's commonly held is a commonly held belief. Go ahead and eat anything, any of the fish raw, but one dacent eat a raw salmon, the worst being a raw king salmon, because you'll get worms and be all sick you're buying that. And that the halibut worms don't worry about the worms that proliferate in halibit, which I when my wife asked what they are I say, that's just part of the halib it. When I was working up there, man, the dover soul, the and flounder would be bumpy with those worms. Yeah, it's okay. Let's let's look at marine worms first. Get them out of the way. Um. There are many nematodes a little roundworms, sometimes some bigger than others, that affect marine fish. Some sometimes people call him a cod worm, and they belong to the genus like cedar terra nova and the sakis for kanema. These are the worms, and we've all eaten them by the hundreds, not even knowing it, because normally the fish we buy in the soupmarkets frozen or we've cooked it. But they only occur in marine fish. They go through a cycle. It varies a little bit. They go through the sort of seals and then back into fish and then they're like the adults on the lava adult and the lava. Uh. If we eat raw marine fish, there is a chance. It's not very common, but it is a chance that you can ingest one of these worms. Let's all. An anisaki is one of the common. One forms a little coil up a little bit bigger than your trigonosis coil, and if it's raw, you can eat it and it will come out of this little cyst. It'll wonder what the hell is going on. It'll start to penetrate through the wall of your intestine. It'll wander around your guts for a while and then die. In other words, we cannot be the the definitive host for that. It's looking for a seal and we're not a seal, so it will die en route. It can do a little bits of damage, It can cause a little bits of pain. It can even in the rare cases, set up a peritonitis and inflammation of the gut or even appendicitis for example, just because it's it's poking its way into the wrong area. But it will die. It it's called a visceral lava migrants a VLM by that by that stage, so you're not gonna all of a sudden like puke up a bunch of these things. It's happened in Nova Scotia and Northern Canada. A bunch of people had a fire at the beach. They gather, they gather, the eat raw, and they have a a lot of fish they eat raw. And then after they went to the tent. One of the women's coughing and upcomes these worms, a little worms little but at that time they uncold themselves. They're about a sentiment which they but they hadn't reproduced in her. No, no, no, they can't. Just ingest they can't. And is that because it's because their ultimate host is is like a saltwater biomes, it's a it's a marine mammals. The yeah, so that so, but we have our our system is more fresh water, and they can't. I was just no, just it's it's very particular proteins that these parasites want, and we don't have the seals protein. Looking at the whales and seals and walls, different different marine mammals with different species of worm. But that's what they're looking for between the fish on the mammal. Where an incidental host a dead end host. Now how long? How long? Uh? You can just weave this into whatever you're gonna go into next. But you say, like he roams around and dies, how long are we talking about? Like, let's they eat a piece of raw salmon and get a worm. Oh amount of days? Because hope, But here's the thing in the outside of Japan. If you like sushi and I do, all meat has been frozen. It's a kind of an agreed way to deal with meat, especially if you live a Toronto is a thousand miles from the ocean. Here, you're a long way from the ocean. So if you're gonna get really fresh fish, you want it frozen on the fishing boat and then only thought out when it's in your sushi chef's hands, that's really fresh stuff. And that that doesn't mean it keeps fresh. It also means it's it's killed off the worm because those worms are killed off by freezing. And that's useful for a lot of people, but us and and many people have our in our audience like to get those fish ourselves. And one thing I came across in this research is that the freezing level required to kill many of these parasites is much lower than you can attain than your household freezing exactly. That'll be the case for tricking out for sure, But most of these other worms are fairly easily killed off by really, but some species of fish are vastly more wormy than others, And there are other worms. I didn't mention the much longer ones. To example, yellowtailed tuna has got some rather large worms in there. You can have you can see the very macroscopy and they can they can mess you up. No, they know they they're gonna because a dead ending you. But they are a bit objectionable to see this sort of wriggling thing like a little bit of spaghetti, you know, in the role of sushi. That But this is why most of the fish outside of Japan is frozen before it reaches I read. I read in Japan that's something like a quarter of the cases of appendicitis are are actually mistaken cases of the antisokis infection. Yeah, so people go to the hospital and they're like, oh, we gotta get your appendix out and then oh no, you just have gut full of worms, sushi worms. So what sometimes what the what the surgeon sometimes does and find out it wasn't the appendix. They'll whip out the appendix anyway they got the person to open and it made it will stop the future, It doesn't, it doesn't know. Always happened like that. What happened now that's marine Paris. Well I'm not I'm not ready to move on yet. Okay, uh, if you had to rate, how me and Yanni here, uh been eating a fair bit of we're eating a fair bit of raw yellowtail, not yellow fin, but yellowtail, which is a jack. Okay, have never like right out of damn water, never frozen? Would you if you were hanging out with us? This is a seafish ocean fish. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, ocean fish fish. So there you are, you're hanging out with us. We're like, oh my gosh, what are we caught? And we uh cut it up? Would you where would you fall on that? Would you be like, no way, bro? Or would you say the risk is so small, I will enjoy it with you? I think enjoyed with you? Okay, So we're not like stupid for having No I've eaten that. I've been to Taiwa, I don't I've had when they bring in the giant tuna and it's a ceremony. The chief chef there slices it and everybody's looking in the newspapers and television is there this this is worth ten dollars, is giant tuna and it's it's wonderful fish. So you're not because we can you know everything you know and you would still eat Yeah, because that parasite can't do any real damage to us. Really not really, you can't it wander around you a little bit and see. Especially there's some fish like hake about or merlosa sometimes called, or some monk fish for example. These are the really tasty fish or even some of the flatfish too, like you mentioned Doba sal and and these fish are sometimes very worryy. But cook them and they're fine. But if you don't cook them, it's not the end of the world. That's good to all. Yeah. Fresh water fish, freshwater fish, Okay, in this country, in this country, the only real freshwater fish are gonna worry about is is a tapeworm? Back up, because you're Canadian, I'm sorry, North America as opposed to Southeast Asia. All right, we're going to North America, North America. It's a little worm. It's called the long name Developotherium latom. It's almost like it will grow up to about ten ms or ten yards long, almost the whole length of your intestine. Yeah. I put put put a story in the in my article about this about a guy who pulled five ft of of one out of his own. Yeah, this's is freshwater fish. And you know where there were a lot of been written on in the Jewish housewives would make a thing called the filter fish fish fish balls, a sort of studio wish white fish exactly, and what she would do before she boiled him in the in the in the liquid, she would taste it to make sure it's enough salt on it, either too much or an off salt adamant. But she would taste the raw fish. She was the one in the family who got this tapeworm, and the rest of the found he didn't because they added after these things were boiled and the fish stars fish to so um. This particular worm, though, is a bit objectionable, and people say, you know, ten metal, ten yards long worm, it's not going to cause much of a problem. You might have one and you see inside you now and not even know it. If you're well fed, you've got enough food to feed you, and a couple of these work so it can eat. So that worm can live for a while. I can live for a long time. But he can't reproduce. Yeah, it can reproduce you. You as you defecate, you're going to leave little what they called plots, a little tiny, little tiny bits of ribbony tape come out with your feces, and if that gets in this this particular case, gets into the water course, then there's an intermediate usually a mollusk of small snails creature is the intermediate host, and the fish eats that thing and it gets the I'm confused now because this big as the ten ten worm. Yeah you get it from what what fish? Can you get it from? Freshwater fish? But this thing doesn't exist in salt water? Well it does if the fish lives in both waters, so salmon, salmon and char. So why are you saying, Okay, if that, if this one can get in and it can live in you and it can reproduce, But it's not it's not really producing in you. It's it's it's it's fertilizing another one of the same species, and you're excreting out the bit. So you can't get it reproducing within you as a as an isolated unit. Is he But there's no detrimental effect from this thing, not really. If you are really malnourished, you know, it'd be difficult to keep a couple of these worms a going. Tape worms are not really dangerous. I mean they yeah, that's good enough. Huh. Yeah, So we got one of these likely, but yeah, salmon is one and we have had we had a we had a conference of businessmen. I think they were in northern British Columbia and if part of their conference they wanted to taste because all over the world they wanted to taste British Columbia fresh salmon. It was smoked in not in the Northwest Pacific style, you know, which is where you're hot smoking. This is the traditional cold smoking. And I think four or five of these businessmen came down with both the marine worms and the tape worm. It's about the only fish that will happen to came came down in what way? How did they know? Uh, they had a syrology that showed that they had been attacked by these little uh marine worms. But they weren't sick and didn't die. No, there's some pains. But they did have a tapeworm and that showed up as well, and eventually if the stall samples showed that it was there as well. But it's a very unusual case where you get both cans of parasite. And the only official work with is Arctic child, which is a member of the salmon family, or any salmons and it was a little well, but we haven't seen examples of that yet. We think eel would work. Just row several weeks ago when I was in Iceland, Yeah, eel. Uh. Quick little lesson in my favorite word is catagronusts. Yeah, yeah, like every nose a nadrumous fish which live in the ocean and spawn in the rivers. But eels live in the rivers and spawn in the ocean. Uh. We had a little scared at my house recently where also everybody's all excited because one of my kids had defecated out a bunch of real thin tape worms. So I went out to investigate, should be tapeworms? No what you know, what he was eating? We had put Uh, We made summer sausage and put into college and casing, and I sliced a bunch for him, and I didn't realize that he didn't know to take He didn't know to take the casing off. But it's cutting these disks and he's eating these things all day long, and he don't know how many chunks of college and sausage casing which he then passes out. You look in the bowl, it looks like I'm like, what I looked at him, and I kept looking him like what And I went and got a pair of latex gloves and I pulled them out, all these rings of college and sausage. But what you will get. And I've had them people calling up and saying that quickly come over looking the toilet, and there's somebody had been on the toilet. And there on the toilet there's a bunch of moving worms, you know, spaghetti kind of worms, and they're all they're all round worms. And then the summer about five inches long and summer about seven inches long, real worms worms And these are a scarus lumber codes. These are the round worm called the scarg Well the kids get playing in sandboxes, well that's one way of doing it. And these worms will will can plug up your intestine. Maybe they're so dense. I've taken a pig intestine and when they used to being inspect on the slaughterhouse, slice through the intestine and you can no food could really get through it because you've just cut through about twenty seven little worms at the same time, just to have to detest it. No kids for these people in a really bad way. I mean, they're not digesting any food. And they're all bloated and adematists and so on. You how do they get that? They get that through eating on the food, the the cystic eggs of this particular worm um. There was a village in Scotland going back to about nineteen thirty I think it was isolated, little village and the physician I think retired to some reason, and the new physician came along. And the first morning in the waiting room, the first patient came in and he said, how are you today? And a woman said, oh, just the usual cough coughed up a few worms, just usual, nothing much us. It turned out the whole village was was had had a Scaris worms in them, and they were seeding themselves. Why because they we're using night so oilage, you know. They were collecting sewage in their houses in buckets and putting it on the gardens and growing vegetables and so this is then we had a couple of scientists, I think they were German, who decided to experiment on themselves, good scientists, and they and they they seeded some strawberries and a strawberry patch one year with a scar As eggs, and then every year they at about a pound or so of strawberries, and every year for about five or six years, both of them got the scarish worms. So these things can live for a number of years through frost cycles. The eggs candy because they're almost really dried up like a spore. So these things are around, but normally in the food that we eat, we don't have. We know we've we found them on paper money. No kid, a coin, just y'all that my kid two days ago to stop, he had a five dollar billies run around within his mouth. Don't yeah, don't tell. I was like, man, don't put money in your mouth, and he's like why. I'm like, I don't. I just understand that it's something you're not supposed to do. What did you do in the States? Just have what we have in Kinada. Plastic money, yeah, plastic money. You can put the washing different sizes though we'd like to build burn. Yeah, you put the washing machine. It'll still be in when you come out. Don't do with the iron it though, Okay, good to uh Man, good stuff. I had a thought, but I can't remember what my thought was. I got a thought. I want to hear about some of the some of the nastier worms and the flukes. I was reading about a village or community in Thailand. I believe that has an extremely high prevalence of liver cancer due to some raw fish preparation that involves live red ants. But there's some liver fluke in there, regional fishes. But I'm just just talking about Okay, they're sick for meat ants, or there's sick for meating liver flukes, liver flukes and fish that the ants. That's that's Tan gentle. That's what they thought. It was initially, Oh like, oh, you're all sick because you're eating to me ants. Yeah, well there's yeah, there's a number of things. Here's what I said. Southeast Asia just while that's why I was coming back to it. There are a number of flukes there, including Clonorcus sinensis, the Chinese liver fluke, which is a very one of the One of the intermediate hosts for this is a crab. It's a marine crab. It's called the mitten crab because the adult on its claws, it's got algae that grows just like big hairy mittens. Now I've eaten this crab when it's in Shanghai, and Hong Kong. It's the sweetest crab meat you'll ever meet. It's delicious, but you've got to cook it because it it's carrying the the larval form of the liver fluke which gets into your liver, into your bile ducts, and it can cause all kinds of problems with your liver. And because that irritation, irritation or inflammation is by definition and early form of what do you call um like promoters in cancer. If you do any kind of inflammation, it can lead to a cancel that down there another will. So this is one and the we found that fish farming, the kind of fish farming they do in the Philippines and Southeast Asia. Uh, there's a lot of liver flukes coming out of that. So you've got to cook the fish. And of course, my relatives and so on in Hong Kong, they don't like to cook. They like the freshest possible seafood and shrimps and lobsters. They will undercook it deliberately because they want that fresh, just like your bear meat. How do you how do you have relatives in Hong Kong. My uh, third wife is from Hong Kong. You've been married three times. Yes, you're still married to her? Now no, really, what are real quick We'll get back to more Tom about what do you think makes it? Uh? Why how are you so difficult to live with? Oh? I didn't know. It's I've already talked about worms, all the creepy, slimy things, you know. Oh man, that's terrible, not terrible. I mean, I'm you're you're fine and everything. I just think about like I would hate to have to you know, like my buddy Ronnie Want said, it goes. I don't want to lose half my stuff. But I have great anlows all over the world. Now you look at the positives. Uh, the philip we're talking about the Philippines. One of the more this this will you'll appreciate this story as as someone who specializes in food born pathogens. Uh. We hiked into a village in the Philippines one time, like not on the road system all you had to hike way into the mountains, um in the highlands of Luzon. And we and I slept in a house one night where the house is built on on pilings, built on stilts, and they had like portions of the house where like widely spaced planks. The reason the houses on pilings, as best I could tell, is low the house was was a pen, and the pens where they fattened dogs and pigs, and so all human waste and all food scrap just would go through the floor down to the dogs and pigs, which you then consumed. And I'm not a squeamish person. I remember having just a feeling of like this seems like a good place for me to get sick, hanging out like in this, in this proximity to to sort of like just watching like the recycling of human excrement. The parallel to that is in some areas around the coast of some kindries in Southeast Asia, the same thing with the fish fish farming, where the fish is kept in a pen right underneath the house on stilts down there about it, I mean, the pig has got an amazing elementary canal, and the pig eat tone waste and the waste from other animals as well, because it's in fact extracting the food that the original eater left behind, and the pig can use that, and the pig puts on weight because what's the term elementary canal? Elementary canal. What does that mean from their mouth to the uranus. It's your whole the whole canal. What's the word alimentary? Not elementary l A L that. What does it mean? It's that it's that canal itself. Is that that's not an adjective? Oh no, no, well it's energy for canal. Yeah, okay um, And it has an amazing one of these yeah, yeah, very effective a pig because that's because you're saying like something else can eat and pass and not absorb nutrients from them, but they can eat those droppings and pick up his like sloppy seconds every exactly exactly. So so again, if it's cooking done, probably and people aren't eating rolla polk in China are not now it's sometimes you get a lot of raw meats in the Cambodia and Vietnam, but China they cook even lettuce. They cook cook lettuce. And this is why it's pretty by the safest food to eat. He's probably done Chinese food. It's all cooked. Yeah, And this is the really the lesson with our hunting fraternity. Either boil it or bake it, or stop something biting you and wash your hands, just like Grandy told us only you know the wisdom is there. Do that you won't get ricken nosis or any of these table worms either. You know what else happened in the same Philippine village that I thought was was a cool system and it didn't make me feel like I was gonna get sick, is that they would they had terraces there in the very steep mountains, and they had terraced rice patties that they've built over thousands of years, and um their rotational system would be that they so rice and farm rice, and then when one of the patties came out of out of a rice harvest, they would do a lot be a they would do fish in it flooded and do fish in it as like a regenerative practice. Harvest the fish drained the thing out, and then do a rice crop in there. Yeah, to to fertilize though. And they're also feeding the fish as well. They've got to feed the fish. And because the fish droppings accumulate that and the remains of the food, that's the newton the nitrogen for the next couple of just a wonderful cexical thing. I mean this is it should delightfuly organic farmers. In this part of the world, they don't call it organic. In that part of the world, it's called farming. Yeah, we've often said organic from it's really the rich people showing off what they can do. It's nothing to do with the reality. Yeah, for sure, let's do toxic plasmosis because our body, you know, he's supposed to be dropping by today. M hm. One of our bodies wives and I think she was pregnant toxo plasmosis. Really, stay away from cats, in she should stay away from cats. But but you give us but you can get of meat and game meat, right, talk about this is the one of these ones. I don't even know. I don't understand what the hell it is. Okay, this is now we're leaving bacteria behind. Now we're into the area of a parasite. Parasite Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Toxoplasma gandhia I. It's not named after gandhi different and the double ie um. Do you remember when Dr Christian Barnard do you may remember you're too young, if you're old at me, you remember he was the first guy did the heart transplant in South Africa, no no recollection, and he was on the he was the first guy to perform one or home one. And so he was doing the study tour thin he was in the Harvard I think it was, and one of the New England medical schools, and all the medical students were there wanted to hear Dr Barnard talk about this first time evert howart transplant. The break came. They rushed across the road there you remember roughly what year that would have been, probably about nineteen seventy two or something like that, and they rushed across roads of little hamburger guy and they swamm sixty seven. Okay, I'm a few years later, and he couldn't keep up the hamburgers, and they kicked a quick, quick, gotta get back. So he was half hamburg I got lost. Everybody who's eating burgers, this medical student so coming to this lecture. They swarmed across the road to the hamburger seller who was quickly half cooking them and giving them to then go back in got a mad rush. It turned out that some four or five or six of these people developed a toxoplasma toxoplasmosis from the raw hamburger. It doesn't usually happen with beef. It's usually other animals, but you know, and sometimes your hamburger isn't hamburgers. Other meats as well mixed in. So that for a while became known as Bona syndrome, where the medical students developed something from meeting hamburg like back to your original question, named after the guy that performed the first heart surgery. Come on, man, come on, syndrome. This little parasite is. They've really recently rewritten some of the medical books because of this. What happened in British Columbia in Victoria. Let me back up a little bit. The main reservoir for this organism is cats, all of the Feeley day for a while, I know I didn't like cats. Well, no, like im or not, it doesn't matter. They carry this thing around with them and they defecate. And if it's if it's for example, if it's taken in for a human body, it doesn't normally cause anything too nasty. But if you're pregnant and you in the early stages of pregnancy, this thing can mess up your your barrier and it can end up with some pretty nasty deformitism and unfortunate things for the infant. So women should keep away from that. We had an outbreak in Victoria. You know, they beautiful capital city in Vancouver Island and a lot of time there. And these were outbreak of toxoplasmas is among people who had never had raw meat, never at game meat, never kept cats. Where the hell were they getting it from? Lunch? Story short, it was to boil down to the water. And the water was in a reservoir above the city in the highland, and they traced it back and the cougars, wildcats and mountain mountain catamounts, what do you call it in Canada, COmON cougars. They had toxic lazar. They were defecating around the beach area of the reservoir. These little things we're entering the water now. Victoria filters and chlorinates it water like every good city does. But the filtering may have let some of these through and the chlorine was not enough. This is the big thing about these things. Normal chlorine will kill bacteria. It won't kill these parasites. You need to trouble the amount of chlorine in the water that was getting it to now. Now, if you look in the Cumulical Diseases book, it said it can't be transmit to water. That is being contaminated by cats feces. That's really interesting. So the main way of getting it isn't eating dear meat. It can be, it can be eating very often it's domestic meat, but dear meat people tax plasmos is from domestic meat. Oh yeah, cows, the sheep, mutton, sometimes pork, deer, moose. Yep, yep. Does that diet a certain temperature, Oh yeah, you can kill obviously, it doesn't spore forms forms spores, and well let me talking about it now. It doesn't form spores. You can't kill. A normal cooking temperature will do that again. About a hundred and sixty again for phara yep, absolutely, because it's the d natures of protein. But best not to tangle it. But if we got pregnant with women around, what does uh that that should tell the interesting story about this too. This parasite is one of those that's in the study been studied um to see how it affects the victim he may have come across. It's it's almost science fiction where where mice are affected with Toxoplasma gandhi, they behave in a reckless way. They come out and they's almost like pulling faces at the cats if you are paint a silly picture. In other words, can you see the logic here? They're almost asking to be eaten and to regenerate their their cycle. Again, we've seen this in I think we've seen this in some fungus which we don't get North America. Claviceps would be one of those great grows in in China. In the Mountaineers Nepal, it's the fungus inoculates a lava a worm. The worm then does something strange. It does it cloked, It climbs up on a blade of grass, dies, and then the fungus consumes the worm and forms little boring bodies. That forms the sport. In other words, it yeah, it drives it up to a good place for dispersal. So mother nature is he never underestimate the power of mother nature. So like like Kama Kaze mice, Oh, here we go, that's not probably out of the right way. I started to write a story actually about disaffecting humans. It's like a fictitious story, but never got beyond the first chapter yet. But I may dig it up. A lot of stories go like that. You think you've got something good, something you don't really feel like you're gonna stay with it. Uh you guys, good on that one. Toxic plasmosis rabies. Do you have rabies here? I'm sure you do me. I mean in Montana, no doubt. I mean, are there places that don't have rabies? Some places more than others. We Ontario we have some of the highest density of rabies anywhere because we were surrounded by lakes and rivers and three two sides of triangle, so we'll need wildlife are in there, and think the pressure of the wildlife and cities and so on, so we get this. Every health district has got two families taking shots all the time rabies. Uh yeah. Let's let's start off with what it is. Okay, a viral disease. It's a virus, a virus, Lissa virus. It's They've got a number of relatives, but they're all deadly for all intents and purposes, fatal. Nobody survives. But the curious thing about it, it's one of the few diseases that you can still use a vaccine after you've been infected. Normally, that doesn't happen because in the old days, like not not even older, it's not that long ago when you got rabies. Man, it was like you were in trouble. Isn't that correct? Well, if you no treatment, you died, that's the trouble you're in. Do you know? Uh? Do you guys um in Canada? You guys probably aren't really huge into Daniel Boone? Are you remember Daniel Boone? The name rings about Balt Disney made a movie. I think that's right. But yeah, you guys be doing yourselves fair to get into Daniel Boone. But Boone was it? Uh? In one of his camps one time, a guy there's a bunch of guys sleeping around the fire in one of Boone's camps. They had just been in a skirmish with some Indians and they were kind of regrouping. But anyways, a wolf came in. It was, as they tell like the wolf was kind of very fixated on one person for whatever reason. And this guy got bit on the head or face. I can't remember where he got bit. He was sleeping, got bit on the head or face. Some months go by and their night hunting on the Clinch River, uh with they just drift the rivers at night with torches and the guy has this outbreak of hydrophobia. And goes berserk. The guy, his hunting partner, has actually jumped out of the canoe to get away from the guy who's going berserk with hydrophobia. He is. The episode ends, he's so afraid of he's gonna hurt somebody that he instructs his friends, I am up, and they bind him up and take him home, and then he has another big outbreak whatever you call it, and dies. From the first symptom to the death wouldn't be more than ten days eleven days of the most really always, so if they could get him home, we would have been within a day or two. And the story, as it's told is that the cart the bite healed, had enough time to heal before he had. They had enough time to heal before he had his first instance of like intense hydropholding. We'll always do. See, this is a very strange disease. You you get bitten by a rapid dog or a wolf or coyote or a fox or a bat or anything like this, the bite inoculates you with the virus. Now, the virus doesn't affect where it is. It's sometimes a bit little swelling day, but it soon heals up. And do you think oh, that's fine. Meanwhile, the virus is now working its way towards your central nervous system, upper spinal cord and brain especially, and it can take depending on where you're bitten. A bitten on the big toe, it can take many months, six seven months. Bitten on the leg or something you knee, maybe four or five months. Bitten around the shoulder, the neck, the face, maybe a few weeks shorter distance to travel. Right. Once it gets to the brain, then the end kephlitis starts. The brain inflammation starts. Also, the parotid glands, these salivary glands at the side, become very heavily loaded with virus and that's when the symptoms start. The symptoms you call it hydrophobia. That's what Pasteura called it. Actually they're not accurate. What is hydrophobia. Hydrophobia is when when the symptoms begin, the throat becomes extreme. You've had a strep sore throat will magnify that by about fifty times. The throat is on fire, it's closed, you can't drink anything, eat, You're dying of starvation. You see a glass of water you try and sip under the pain is unbearable, so you want the water, but it's the pain is all incredible. So this it looks like you're afraid of water. You're afraid of touching it because of the pain. It's nothing with the fear of water because the pain. But why was it of note to the guys? I think that I can't remember his name, the guy that there's a historian that that collected up a lot of these narratives. Um, I can't remember his name, but it was of note in the story that they were out on in a canoe on the river when the guy had an episode. Nothing to do with it. I mean that other than the fact that he might have tried to drink the river water, which you can do, of course, and that's maybe when he first felt this horrible pain. But anyone will do it. But you're dyeing the thirst, you're burning out because of the fever in the thirst, and you touch water and it's agony. That's why it looks like it's However, look at look at the beauty of this. You gotta look at the beauty of it, right, I am the giant. The saliva from the salvary glands becomes loaded with virus. Meanwhile, the saliva that's in your mouth. You can't swallow. We're always swallowing saliva there, you can't. It's it's plugged up. So you're you're drooling, you're foaming, mouthing at the mouth, and that's where the virus is. All right, Now, bring in the aggressive form of rabies. Sometimes there's a dumb form where you just sort of go in the corner, become a vegetable. But more often you become aggressive. And if it's a wild animal, it's got no fear of any any other thing either to come right, fox, right, come out of brush and give you a bite. You know you'll never do that, norly. So now you got the aggression, the bite that set the saliva full of virus, and it the cycle starts again. It's such just a perfect, you know, perfect storm. If you like, do squirrels carry rabies? Any animal can carry rabies, even found it in mice laboratory. You can inoculate any able. But remember they it's gonna get it from being in a conflict with another animal. Reason the small animals would die and be eaten. Usually the reason I bring that up, let me tell you quick something that happened to me. It has it has been postific squirrels. We're in a pool one time in uh on the end of long in the hamptonsmitt the Hamptons. We're in a pool and a squirrel comes running up. I was in there with my kids, our friends kids, everybody in the pool. Squirrel comes running up and starts running up and down the side of the pool frantically, kind of casing everybody out. Then the squirrel jumps into the pool and I think, well, he's gonna he's not gonna like that. But then he starts coming at people in the pool swimming, and I grabbed him up by the tail and whooped him so hard that it was it killed him. Do you think that we always warted like what his what kind of trip he was on could have been? This happened if his girls. In fact, just just a matter of about two or three weeks ago only there were two episodes with foxes, almost the same as you're saying. They're both in the eastern part of the United States, where in one case a woman was walking or jogging. I think it wasn't a squirrel, sorry, a fox came out undergrowth and went straight forward and bitter and here she is sort of wondering what the hell are doing in the neighbor's dog, I think came along and chased the squirrel chasty fox away and killed it, and eventually the head was found to be positive. Is what caused rabies in this in this fox, the dog dog. The dog could then get the shots right in that intervening period between the bite and going up to the brain. So the person who had as rabies getting back to your guy in the canoe, if he had bitten somebody, it's possible that he could have passed it on. But because humans don't normally get to the point point of biting other humans. But technically there's no reason why it wouldn't happen. Why are the bulk of of rabies cases? Where do they come from? Bats? No? No, not. You know, if you go to Asia, the majority is dogs, feral dogs, wild dogs, you know, stray dogs. In North America, it's really raccoons, uh, skunks, foxes, bats, that's about it. In Central America it's bats and cattle because you get the cattle cattle because you're looking at the bats that eat the drink blood vampas and they'll bite the cattle around the ankles. Next thing you know, the cow has god rabies and it doesn't. But the cow obviously is in is it in trouble? It can't feed, it doesn't pharmacistic, hasn't fed for a while. It's behaving normally. The vet comes and says, something stuck in its throats, So you know what vets do. They put the big long and they into the throat. Nothing in there, but now the vet gets bitten and the bet has to take the shots. The cow was rabbit, but you didn't think of that. Rabbit. Cow a rabbit are so any animal can be rare rabbit. In fact, we had we didn't have raccoon rabies in Ontario, in Canada until some bright spark brought up a semi a semi trailer from I think it was Georgia full of raccoons because somebody up there wanted to go hunting raccoons in New England, Maine and Vermont and they didn't have many raccoons there, so they said, let's bring some up from Georgia. So they brought up and apparently they brought up some rastas. So the next thing we know, they're crossing over the bridges into Canada we along road Brockwhville area, we're getting raccoon rabies appearing. So what they tried there was something that's now been picked up in the United States. They euthanized, They trapped and killed every every for one kilometers about a half a mile, and then they around for ten kilometers. It's about four miles. They dropped rabies vaccine baits in the form of meatball. That's where they started. It's so successful and now doing it in the States all over the place. It was like some line, you guys know where the line runs through the eastern US, somewhere north to south. I think there's like a line where they air dropped rabies bags either Ohio, Pennsylvania, something like that, Pennsylvania sticks. I can't remember where. I remember we talked to that that these wildlife disease specialists. Brian Richards was telling us about that. Yeah, all I remember is that it was done on the East coast. Okay, let's talk about bats. I finished with bats though, because some of my extra problem with a bat, you have an extra problem with bay extra problems. We think that the bats possibly can spread the virus as an aerosol, and that really gets you worried because normally you need to have a bite. Most physicians will say, let me see your leg, have you actually been bitten by the animal, and they've got to see a little punctchubaka or something. But with a bat, we have some evidence to show that the bat flying around the bedroom, terrifying the people in that us can possibly spread by by by the arizon, just his saliva, saliva in the air, and only that the bat's teeth is so needle like like it that people have woken up, not the cannabis states woken up. They've been a bat sitting on the chest somewhere. They wakes up, the bad flies away, and they didn't They really looked closely and they didn't know they could actually see a little tiny mark on the skin the teeth. So that's that's that's toff with the bat. And also last thing with the bat, we think it can live longer in its infective stage. Normally, remember about the dog or the other ten days maximum between the symptoms, the effective start time to your dad is used the five or six seven days less and ten ba we think can be longer than that. So that creates like a little extra Yeah, and if you and if you don't like bats, uh, that's okay, but look bad, bad spread size. Remember, sorry, I spent in two thousand three. Yeah, we thought there was a thing called a a civic cat. It wasn't a civic cat. Got it from bats in China Ebola from bats. Bats are hurting man, Yeah, they are with Yeah. My kids just went on a tour of a bat cave um Well Lewis and Clark Caverns, which has bats in it. They went on a tour and the tour people were curious what other caves, what all caves they've been in, and if you've been in another cave or something like that, you can go in this cave or Yeah, they had masks. They hadn't been in any I don't know if they reported it, but masks on them the cave. You know, I could you know, it's hard to get information from little kids, but I got the gist of it. But you know, they could have messed something up. But I do believe them that someone inquired about what other cave and they've been involved in because there's a lot of fungus and things that can grow in the bat kuana on the floor of the cave. Yeah, and that's what kills there's like this what's it called against sam white nose syndrome. But there's also some other stuff like like histoplasmosis, for example, which you can go in that another single celled like like a toxoplasma, which can be inhaled lung disease. Are you comfortable coming back on the show sometimes? Yeah, we got a lot to talk about. Well, because we're not gonna get through all the diseases, man, not even c But I want to hit like, uh, I think we gotta hit giardia. Okay, Yeah, let's do YARDI. Let's do YARDI. Okay, yeah, because that's that's very It's people going into the woods. They got their stirry pens, they've got their water filters here. Well, I have a friend here. Yeah, man, I have a friend who just got the cam Pilo bacteriosis from water drinking water out hunting. Yeah, let's talk about drinking water out in the woods, Okay, drinking on the wits Okay, So okay, Johnny would come into that in a big way. Um, single celled parasite. Now, if you look at it in the way that most textbooks look at it, looks like a little a little balloon with two big eyes. He's actually sucking discs. Sounds cute, It sounds really cute. It looks like a balloon with two big eyes, like like a pear shaped thing with eyes and there, but it's not eyes, not eyes, actually sucking discs chlorine. And if you go, a colleague of mine does a lot of work in the far north of Canada up there and research in the in the tunder you know what escimates are into it, and almost everybody has had jud i is at some point or another. Well, that contradicts what I've been told by people, is that when you get up to the Arctic slope you don't have it anymore. No, no, it's not true. There's all kinds of up there happily. Now it's a it's a It doesn't kill you off usually, but it causes a lot of chronic intestinal We've all had chronic it foul smelling diary and it keeps stops and stops. Oh yeah, and it's not continuous, but it's it's so it can be treated. There's a number of good anti anti parasitic preparations, but there's some of them was as bad as a parasite. My brother once said that he almost thought it was worth getting giardia because of the relief the medication brought. He was like, Giardia medicine and Tom's and acid and acid are like two medicines that he likes because you take it and all of a sudden you feel a lot better. And he really appreciated. It's like the logic hitting head against the pig wall, you know, stopping the joy of stopping is spreading. And it's hardly anybody is free of it. Hardly anybody is immune to it. It's gonna if you're if you're out there with the water has not been boiled properly, Boiling will kill it. Boiling it will kill it. Oh, even bringing it to the boiling point, I'd say a minute or two. But to be in the safe side at five minutes and they cool it down again, you're safe as anything not going to happen. But it goes what's to container you're gonna put it in, if you're gonna use it for something else. Wherever your hands are been I mean, you know there's a chain of infection going along it, and it's in the environment. I mean every bit of a freshwater or platu may pick out of the freshwater fish you've pulled out of the mud or something. That's what the job. But people but yeah, I get what you're saying, and I accept what you're saying. But people that get it, it's like you can get your toothbrush all day long in some creek and brush your teeth, and you know, anyone that dips your toothbrush and the creek usually knows not. They spit it all out the people to get it. And I've gotten it. And when I've gotten it, where you're able to look and be like you were drinking volumes of water. H I don't know that anyone that picked up Crypto Spiritio or Giardia, they couldn't look and and and figure out what like, couldn't look in and sort of isolated a situation where they made a stupid call, like do you hear of patients coming in or people coming in with jardine having no idea how they could have possibly gotten it. Haven't been camping non fishing and wind up with yard if you know that's that's true. But but going fishing is entering the great wild world where you are at associated with something or other there. I mean where you go fishing and don't have lunch on the bank of the of the of the river or the lake or something. You're gonna stop for lunch, or you're going to cook up some fish, and in so doing you've maybe brought some other stuff around. And it's usually I agree with you, it's it's a larger quantity. It's a glass of water. Other people in Milwaukee who had it piped through in their town system? Is that right? And this is this This was the biggest single outbreak of crypto. This is crypto now, but they're almost a parallel and the way they affect you in history. In the municipal water was applying Milwaukee and be fever right in town. Oh, the experts were there, and of course they the lab people weren't trained to look for crypto. They were looking for bacteria, and they did every tester back to under the sun. They said, we can't find anything in there. And eventually it was a hot summer day and and it was up to five sorry about fifty illnesses cases and something like five thousand deaths. This is a big outbreak. When was this surprising? You never heard about it? Oh, well, I can get you the exact date when I feel like I remember some kind of listeria outbreak or something like that. But that's no, that's there is always much smaller than that, but more deadly. Anyway, this particular thing, they had a big press conference and the reporters were there and the Commissioner for health forget his name, Schmidt or something like that. One of the reporters said, oh, doctor Schmidt, we noticed that you're not drinking in your water on the press table, you know, And he said, well, to tell the truth, a couple of boys in the labs think that might be something to do with the water, but we're not sure yet. Now up to that point they thought it was food. And so the lawyers went to town. They said, look, if you think it is some of you with the water, at least tell us and we'll boil the water until you find out what was going on. It was very embarrassing. This Yeah, I was just out of high schools. Eight hundred thousand people were exposed to it. Exposure was huge, yea, because it was coming safe Will supply, you know, drinking fountains school kids. Wow. Man, And again that that's a parasite. It resists the chlorination that you we normally apply. You got to have with extra special chlorine or extra special filtration. So back to somebody that's out camping, stop, can I kind of hit one more for you for you to Um, did you watch that documentary about that Colton, Oregon called Wild Wild was Wild Wild Country or Wild Country? Wild Wild Country, Wild Wild Country? It's it was just document about this cult in Oregon. And they had it where they're trying to figure out a way to keep everybody from voting on a certain day. Um, they didn't want the talents people to vote because they wanted to be able to dominate an election. So they think, like, how can we get what would prevent everybody from voting? And they feel that what would prevent everybody from voting is that everyone we're sick. And they experimented their experiment with variously. They were going into salad bars. It was like a popular restaurant in town. They went and tried to contaminate a salad bart and effectively didn't got a bunch of people sick. But everything they knew about so they knew about beaver fever, but they didn't quite know what beaver fever was they thought that somehow like beavers had carried beaver fever, and they they didn't execute on us, but I think they toyed with this plan to catch beavers and then blend the beavers up and contaminate the municipal water supply with blended up beavers in order to infect the town's people so that on election day only the raj Nishi's would vote. It's a great story. Anyway, Go ahead, Ynny, thank you for that. Take a big blender. Go get me a beaver and blender. And the reason I'm put pointing bringing up this instance because I've been there and I've had and I can't quite remember now what he's a chemical engineer, I believe, but a scientist nonetheless. And and when I sat there and went through pumping my water treating it, and I was actually using one of these now gene bottles just like this one. Now, I would put my one end right into the creek there the water source, and it sort of has like a real rough filter at that end, and it kind of has a float to keep it up off the bottom, and so you stay away from the sediment goes in. One t goes through the filter, and then there's sort of there's a ceramic filter, right, No, it wasn't a ceramic version. It's just the catatin the regular filter, but not a ceramic version. And then, uh, you put the little attachment that fits nice and snug on your Nalgene bottle. You proceed to pump away, yes, okay, with the pressure through a membrane. Yes, exactly. You pump it full. And then when it's all said done, I would take my water filtration system and sort of and there's you know, long tubes going both directions, and I would wrap it up and put it back into my little pouch that it lives in, put into my backpack, and off we go. And he felt that that that because I'm not keeping out the whole system clean, and then in the end I'm sort of contaminating the whole system by because that one end that goes into the water sources now stuck in a bag and you splashed little dropets of water in there. He's like, you know, what, if you're gonna do that, there's really no reason for us to sit here and spend all this time filtering the water. Bullshit, man, it's got to be some kind of parts per million man the whole world would have jardia. Well, there aren't there parts of the world that were like great percentage of people have it. In the in the poor areas, Yeah, like the north of Canada where they're living in like a third world area for whales and sewage will get a bit mixed up together. That kind of thing for sure. But let's just say with the water again, because you mentioned about water treatment systems. If you're looking for a system, reverse osmosis is not a bad system, but it's got some real problems with it. When it's working out of the manufacturer and it fits n s F certified to be one micron, it's got to be absolute says on it absolute one micron. Then it's been tested by the National Sense Sensition Foundation. It's been found not to pass anything great than one microphone. So you're going to keep out crypto and jar there viruses to right one micron. Even some of the bacteria will get through one microd But if you're just looking at these particular nasties, um um uh. If it says a nominal one micron, don't trust it that. Sometimes the scripto will get through with nominal it's just like approximately to go with you absolute. The other thing with with r OH is it works very well until the membrane, which is a semi permial membrane, until that gets even a microscopic hole in it, which it will do after a while. It's a it's a biological membrane. So yet will fungus growing in little pinholes in it, and there's no way to tell that with what is getting through is in fact contaminated. So they normally say use an r O filter with something downstream from it, like ozone or a little trop of chlorine or something in there as well, just to be sure that there's something. The same with the ultra violet light. You remember for a while with a little ultra violet light kits you could get. Now, the problem with alto violet is that it forms a deposit on the tube. You know, if you have what tube within the tube, if it's one of those, if you take it out once in a whire you don't clean the inner tube. There's all kinds of kind of a caking on the inner tube, which means that UV now doesn't reach the water and there's no way to tell. So what you you should do is either clean that inner tube rigorously every time, or make sure there's something downstream like chlorine or eidine or or something like that, or ozone which will polish off anything that's got by. Yeah, we're big stairy pen guys. Real. Yeah that's good. Yeah, that's the product. Yeah, runs on like a cr one battery or double as they both. Yeah. I like, hey, how does how does um? How does iodine kill stuff? Well, it's it's it's it's a molecule to actually element actually that when in combination with proteins, it's it forms another very pleasant situation. It will. This is why I dine was the first thing that you d have on. Remember when the old duff I done, it hurt. It was the alcohol that was in because it was a tinker ide. But nowadays you use your better dying and these other things which you can put on. It doesn't hurt as well. So you go for an operation, they put on that nice red stuff, let it dry and then they cut into you. But it's it's an iota four or an iodine complicated organic. I don't con found. It's just that it kills off most bacteria. Most bacteria can't surviving it just it's okay to like because here's the thing, like you know, guys in the middle, it's terry um. There's a lot of iodine more for water sand tastes in the field to use an iodine tablets and then they make a neutralizer the neutralizes the flavor of iodine. But it's it's a commonly held belief. I don't know if it's true or not. Like in our circles, is a commonly held belief that if you're spending a ton of time out, you shouldn't be you shouldn't be using iodine because you're drinking all this lot. You drinking too much iodine. The only place in your in the your body that will hang onto iodine is your thoroid gland. Everything and no other tissue has got to a receptive point forwards or anything more than that urinated. It defecated straight out, so you can't really do much. I believe there is a threshold for too much idone. It's so the interplace hell with the irritation in some parts of the system, and also can give too much in the thoroid gland. But it's not going to be something that's going to affect you too much. So if you're spending like you know, you spend a couple of months out of the year out run around the woods. It's the taste that most people don't like. So there's no detrimental there's not like I mean like again, not every day all day, but like a week here and there drinking IODI and treated water is okay. Let me talk to our occupational health people who are linked in with OSHA and Nioshan so on, just to see what the latest is on on the excessive idine. What he is excessive? I mean it's got to be several ounces of eye down or something. It was he just a little more. Let me find out that and I can I can afford it information to you. Yeah, when I was talking earlier about I got I got two more or two more? Like water have a salt's got eitherin in because we need either and they put it and in salt because they figured these massive mass medication. But it's the one thing you could guarantee everybody can have a little bit of salt in their year, the month, the week. Uh my two remaining questions on JARDI and crypton other water born and stuff that you get when you camp and back to my one point, like I've had it two or three times, oh him? And when when when I remember one time? I could take you to where I drank out of a creek rabbit hunting back home in Michigan and got real sick. And then I got it one time in Arizona because I did IDI and but I didn't want a while super thirsty, and I didn't want to wait for the IODI and tablet to dissolve, and everybody else thought it was really stupid, and I had some argument why I thought it was okay, got sick. I remember my brother him getting it real bad one time because we were elk hunting and we found where, uh where we thought we found a trickle, the original source where it's coming out of the ground, and he drank a bunch of that and we went under ten yards up the hill and realized that it was a big elk wallow and it hadn't flown through enough sand to filter it out. And I remember he got sick and went on and on and on eventually got treated. So like the times when we've had it and then we're diagnosed because of of giving a scat sample, um have have again, It's been these times when when you like get sick, you're like, oh, man, that I make a bad move. Remember another time a bunch of us got sick in Colorado. Someone had told us that some river was for some magical reason didn't have it. Everybody drank every is it really And it was just like all these moments where you could kind of go through your history over the last couple of weeks and sort of identify, you know, a moment where it came from so to Yeah, I just like driving after mainly I'm driving after honest's point where when I hear people talk about that, you know, you dip some water out of a creek and then you starry pen the inside of your bottle. How maybe you missed a little drop in the threads of the bottle. I don't know, man, I just don't. I just can't. I just feel like if that stuff was getting you, then everybody would be sick all the damn time. It's a probability game really on how many of these sales you take in and all of these things we've talked about, whether it's a tulamia and toxoplasma so on, there's a minimum number of cells you need to get ill, because some of these things you need half a million or speakers of million to get ill. Other things half a dozen will do it. So it already depends on what the density is in the water, and probably your fitness or your wellness right to some degree, or your immune system. Let's go with that. How strong humanity? For example, if you're pretty ill from some other underlying feature, you've got diabetes or something, maybe your immune system is down, you're gonna be hit much harder than other people. So here's here's my second question. Uh, did were communities or groups of First Nations people's Native American Native Alaskans do they eventually did they eventually develop a um immunity to it? And did all of their children have to go through a phase of having gardia? That is a really good question, and we've heard the same thing I asked about things like salmonella in Mexico, for example, or in Southeast Asia, where there's a lot of it around, but people don't seem to suffer from it anywhere near as much as the tourist who goes there and as exposed. We know that just before I leave salmon all a little bit we know that Salmonella typhee, which causes a rather strange form of salmonell we call typhoid fever, which is very serious. I didn't know that I was even connected. It's called salmonella type that particular organism. We haven't we've had a vaccine. I haven't been vaccinated for that when he used to live in the Mediterranean. Fact typhoid fever and paratyper so the other salmonella probably do we we we even think this is a there's a link like that, a kind of an acquired immunity among local people with staff lococcus areas that the staff toxin you get. You know that there's not an organism it orgain produces the toxin, and weat the toxin. Even that appears that some people might actually become not a mute into it, but tolerant of it. More tolerant of it. It wouldn't suffer from it. And so traveler is coming back from the nice North American city. Their stomach is used to North American supermarket food. They go and travel in Thailand or Philippines or something like that, and they suddenly really ill and the local people are eating it all the time. We don't. I don't know about jardias specifically about that, but it's such a good question. I want to find out to get back to you about that because I want to see if there's any evidence so far that we can become more tolerant of jardia. I think it's a really good bet that we do good. So hang on that because we're gonna wrap it up and I'm gonna let you go because now we have occasion to have you back on and provide us the answer about um, how Native Americans could with ardia? Good sounds good? Any uh? Yes? What do you guys got any concluders? I just want to make sure that I'm clear that And what my takeaway is that it is okay for me to go out there and eat as much fresh or salt water fish raw, and then we're really the wor he wants you to write it down that the worst things going to happen to me is that I'm gonna end up with a little worm that calls through my stomach and worms around for up to a week or so and then dies in the kind of fish, and we're gonna be exposed to North America. Yes, that's about right. To civic. There's a number of societies around the world you do the same thing. Oddly enough, they call it cooking in lime. It's because the appearance of the fish, you know, it looks like it's but it's not actually being cooked. I think that the like most of the like the chlorine or anything else, it's the time and the dose. So it's the strength of the lime and how long it's been in there just to achieve a kill off of the anything that is in there. But even if it wasn't much in there, what you're saying is still true. You're not going to have any serious disease. You may have some little tickle in the throat you make, get a little If you're really rare, you might get a parent ton I just for that's so rare that it it hits the medical books when it happens, So it's another big deal. It's rare enough to people write about it when it happens. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, that's a good that's a good measure of rarity. Yeah. It's like when someone gets hit by a mountain line, it makes national news. You're like, not many people a getting hit by mountain line that's a mountain line. I talk toxic blowser in this, you know, Yeah, that's that's another kind of mountain line problem saying what do you got? Oh? I mean, there's so many more diseases I want to talk about from this incredible I'm not going to. I just I just want to. I thought we had a chance to get through them all I would plow ahead. But it's got to be a TV. It's to be continued. Man, It's like how dukes it has? I understand it just and just so fascinated now, and I'm I'm struggling with kind of dueling emotions that like I feel like authorized to go eat whatever fish and into rob but I'm also like scared to death now about a bunch of other ships so that I wouldn't do that in Southeast Asia when I wasn't planning on it. Fish and crab and shrimp cook there. But I mean there was a thing in Hong Kong number of years ago where and I was with people who do that, who they would bring live, live shrimp to the table and you pick them up with the chopsticks and maybe you dunked them quickly into the hot soup. But there's still basically alive. Eat them. Yeah, there was a handful, not a handule. There's a place in l A. I went to you in the whole Special. The whole point there is like eating stuff that's alive. Yeah, I mean people eat roy, you know always. Yeah, but there was like there's more stuff. They're bringing all this stuff out. It's like the whole thing is isn't that great? And then a noise if you look really closely before you eat it, there's all kinds of little worms in there, but they don't cause any problem at all. Look at it closely. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, if you're aflated. Blue delar perch looked like someone Yeah, it looks like someone put black pepper around him already. Yeah. I don't. I don't like, I don't tell my wife and see that that's a couple of hundred little worms. Make sure it's probably cooked. That's a parasite. No, I'm just like, yeah, they just look like that. And that is what they do is in some places in Europe and England they take a haddock seafish and they smoke its smoked haddock, but the worms now take on more of the dye than the fish does so at last, anybody looking at it and you say, oh, there's a little cold up because you're dark amber color and the rest of the fish is light amber color. She's dead. It's been properly cooked. Hey, you don't have a book or anything, do you. I'm writing a couple of things. Yeah, you know, so if people are listening and they want to check out, I mean you start, you probably published academically, right, Oh, I can have a good publishing. Yeah, but I do. I'm a writer and Cora. Now I remember tired from full time teaching, but I still do some teaching around it. So people can look up Tim sly Ryers and then you'll get all kinds of epidemialogist and people find your work and they'll read your stuff. I read a great deal of his writings, unreal, completely unrelated to even anything I was writing about. In your responses on Cora always always have a good tongue in cheat component that I enjoyed quite a bit. Well, thank you very much for coming on. Thank you, Steve. I'd love to have you back. Okay, we only got through not even like about a third of the things that fella could run into wet touched on baby ceosis Bruce Lows, I've never even heard of that one and a plasmosis. Stay tuned bolks were gonna cover a lot more diseases. It will kill you. Thanks again, good stuff, Leisure one