00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming in you shirtless, severely bug bitten in my case underwear listening Hunt don't either podcast. You can't predict anything presented by on x Hunt creators are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store. Nor where you stand with on XU. Yannie likes to say, okay, we're on, Well he use that earlier? Did he? I want to recap something because we're having a little pre a pre chat. Uh who's been like? Who here's been to jail? I can't tell you. I can't tell you've been to jail a bunch. And now I was trying to backpedal. No, No, I've not. I've not I've been to a jail, but I've not like on a school to her, yes, yes, to check it out, just to see what I thought of it and whether or not I wanted to get involved. And it set me straight. I didn't want to go back. You didn't want to rule it. You didn't rule it out without having taken a look. I just thought, like, in jail, there's just so many things I wouldn't be able to do that I'd like to go do so, I thought, oh I should Probably I did. I didn't stop breaking the law. I just got smarter. You were like, if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do it right. Yeah. I knew who to give money to and stuff like that. If I got pulled over that kind of thing. We just did a school tour, they would not have allowed me to be anywhere near a school. Well do you have children? Oh? Yeah, how many kids you got? I got to two daughters, ladies and gentlemen. Talking to Travis Schwartz who goes by Hank Patterson. Do you know what? I want to get back to jail and get back to my kids school to her? But I was driving a couple of weeks ago from Catchum, Idaho to Hear. I did that yesterday. Well, on on the way, I saw damn sign on a store that said something like welcome Hank Patterson. I saw something like Hank Patterson. Yeah, and I uh try to then find a landmark to be able to tell you this story better. Yeah, No, I know, I know it's not. My name is not on so many marquees in the in the Quetchum area that I don't know what we're talking about. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, Peekaboo Angler in Peekaboo, Idaho. That's where I saw it. Yeah, I saw it, took note, and then wanted to tell you the story, and I was like, you know, I'm gonna grab a better landmark and then and then whatever got distracted by the beauty of the landscape or something, so not here I am with a story that's like not as good as it could be. You were not for those listening. You were not far from Craters of the Moon, National Moon. We're not far from that. That was like, so you saw my name in lights under like unleaded gasoline three dollars in nineteen cents, and then the next thing you saw was welcome to creators of the Moon. Yes, yeah, congratulations. Yeah, I'm I'm big in that town. I never drive around and then see um a thing welcoming me on a sign yeah, which is randomly somebody in that area is probably now gonna like text or like email me that I'm not that big a deal in that yeah, or they're gonna go They're he's not that big a deal. What we're not going there for? What the welcoming well, so opening weekend fishing in Idaho. So a lot of the streams rivers in Idaho clothes for the spawn, and so it opens the weekend a Memorial Day, and so we put on a big um Opening Day celebration at peakbu Angler, which is on Silver Creek, which is my absolute favorite place on the planet to fish. And so it actually it's a town of like thirty people, and it is my favorite event of the year just based on the fact that, nostalgically speaking, I couldn't be more honored to be invited to speak and be a part of an event anywhere near Silver Creek. So yeah, hold that though, I gotta that brings up a couple of things I want to ask about, which I want to talk about. This one of the reasons I don't want to go I want talk. I want talk about going to the jail house because I'd a chaperone my oldest boys school field trip. The field trip we went to three places. We went to the old jail house and saw the gallows, which you're still sitting there, and we got to talk about the guy, the only guy they ever hung from that gallows, which my kids waste a good gallop made a very big impression on him. He likes to bring that up off and now. Uh. We then rolled over to the graveyard and to the graveyard, and we went to the county Recorder's office where you record property exchanges. Was there? I have to have I got a lot more out of this field trip than he did. What was there a through meaning? Did you see? Did they tell they got hung? No? Doubt had been great? And then went to went to Yeah, we went to other people's graves. But the best thing I learned him, know how I didn't know this. I didn't know that there uh that there are fishy circumstances around John Bozeman's death. Oh you guys, you guys look basically familiar with this dude. Like Bowsman pass boat made the Bowsman Trail, which cut off the Oregon Trail and brought people up to the gold fields. Yeah. Uh, they were dicking around on the Yellowstone in eighteen sixties. Who's Who's the day in this story? Came in a couple of his buddies, a couple of ne'er do wells, local figures. They're dicking around on the Yellowstone and they come back and like, oh John's dead, he got shot by the black feet. We buried him later. A guy on his deathbed fishy was pretty good. Oh yeah, yeah, he got killed and we buried him well. A guy on his deathbed, A buddy of his on his deathbed. I don't know if deathbed confessions are real, but supposedly the guy has a deathbed confession that did he got it was? It was frature side over some cattle dispute. They shot him. And then the guy that the deathbed confession gets made to send some of his cowboys over there, and they dig his body up, and he got his knife is nice in the old jail house on display and uh, and they dug him up and buried him overround the hill here at the graveyard in town. M huh. Think about that. I didn't know about that part of the story. His tomb in the graveyard up there, he says, killed by black feet. They haven't, they haven't. I'm gonna put a parenthetical somebody's going there at night, and chisel in a parenthetical like as not. According to Doug, a favorite seats for a lot of stuff back then. Yeah, like who did it? Oh? Yeah, so it looked like blackfeet. Everyone probably bought it right away? Was that a thing? Back then? You just bury a guy right where you like you didn't, wouldn't you haven't. They would have had to drag him back over the past that now bears his name, and maybe that felt yeah effort, really yeah, you know it doesn't matter. So can you start out, Travis? Yeah, oh, introduce yourself? Yeah, h Miles Nulty, director fishing here at meat Eater. You've been on before. I have been on lunch twice. Jannis, thank you? Okay, great, good stuff, really nice, really nice. And I've been asking for a title for a year now and everybody's like, I tell you what boss of all Knowledge? I was gonna say chief okay with the c ko uh Sam Sam Longer, fishing editor also working this lovely office place. And then traffic, can you explain where you end? And Hank Patterson begins, what is Hank Patterson? Who is Hank Patterson? It takes us back to that Mitch Headward joke doesn't like is Hank Patterson's My is an alter ego? I guess you would call it so I I uh, I used to want to make fishing films, fly fishing films. Seriously, I used to want to No, no, no, no, well yeah no I did. That's true. So Hank started because I was I was doing a documentary on taking Guys with Cancer fishing, and I needed to real Yeah yeah, I needed to raise some hard to parody. Yeah no, that would have been. It would not have It would not have been. That would have ended Hank Patterson really really early. This is hilarious. So we're making this documentary. And so about the documentary though, so for real recovery organization, we take men with with cancer fly fishing. My buddy Reese was going, yeah, yeah, So I'm on their their national Board of Directors, which should tell you that they need better director like board people. I'm not doing a good job. I did a decent job on the film, but but I'm a terrible board member. I don't do you know anything I anyway? So, uh, you know, so, my my buddy Reese, he had cancer and he was going to go on this retreat and we needed to raise some money to make this documentary. And uh, the Drake magazine was doing a contest fly fishing film contest, uh and humor was the category. And so my buddy Reese calls me up he said, hey, they're they're doing a funny thing. You're funny. I'm I'm funny. This is what I do for really, I'm due. No, I'm I'm I'm funny. And so I said, okay, so what what you know? Have you ever seen a funny fly fishing film? And he said no? And I said, okay, so the bar is where we needed because I'm not that and with the river. Yeah. So I I sat up one night and I wrote the first Hayk Patterson episode and then uh, and then we went out the next day and we shot it and then I edited it that night and overnighted it and in one so why Patterson? Well, I had no ideas, and so I had done another character on a on a film that I was in. Oh, so Hank was my dad's dog's name. And then Patterson. I just went on Facebook and I just started scrolling through names and my buddy Michael Patterson came up. And so it was all very last minute, you know, I mean, but from from the phone call of hey, we should make a funny fly fishing film to sending the finished product out was like twenty seven hours and and uh and and so and it's it's probably the best episode. I should probably one like a South Park thing, right, so I should probably do them all in a truncated amount of time instead of overthinking it. It's I think it's just called episode one. I don't We didn't have a really elaborate titles back then, you know, because we didn't figure we would ever make another one. But then people sent me some free waiters, and I thought we should I need I need a fly rod, so we should make another one. And so people kept sending me free stuff and yeah, oh I got, I got. Yeah, I could open a shop at this point, and people are always asking, well, why do you you should give some of that stuff away? Or you should would you sell me your you know, rod box or something like that. No, it's there will come a time, and it's probably soon where people are like, don't give this guy any more free stuff. He's worn out his welcome. So the more about the real thing though, yeah, the cancer thing. Yeah, so well, so Reese my my friend. So that's who started How many how many people do you know? I want with the back I want the backstory though. How many people do you guys take? How many people does your organization host or how many how many cancer patients do you guys take out his end of life people some of them? Yeah, yeah for sure. So thirty two retreats across the country. I am on the board for the nash Anal Organization and then I also am one of the people that runs the Idaho Retreat and so we take each Each retreat takes you twelve to fifteen guys. Is about how many you can fit um in a retreat. It's all free, so the participants don't pay anything at all. So every organization or chapter has has been tasked with raising the money to to take the guys out. And basically what they do is you come in on a Friday and and you mix up sort of a group therapy, like these discussions. These guys get to talk about things they've never been able to maybe talk about as far as their cancer experience. And uh so we'll sit in these group settings and have these uh we call him courageous conversations and uh we'll do that, and then we'll take them fishing, and then we'll come back and have another conversation. And so it's sort of a mix up of of that and and dinner and just hanging out and being around other guys that are going through a very similar experience. It's, um, you know, I'll admit that every year it comes up. I I I've got a busy schedule, and I'm like, oh man, it's it's the absolute best weekend of of my year every single time, partially because every single time I think, oh man, I don't know if I can go this year. I'm so busy. And then you go up there and you know, it's it's an opportunity to sort of see what what some other people are going through that might be a little more difficult than anything that you're experiencing. But I think everybody uses it. The buddies who are the guys that take these guys fishing, uh, sort of the guides. Um, I think everybody has a pretty emotional experience, and uh, it's it's a cool thing. Uh So you've gone people who then you've met many people who have then now passed away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So it's yeah, it's it's tough. I mean, we've we've had guys that you get close to and and you know, you know, it's like you know, what stage you know of cancer they're in, and what the likelihood is we certainly don't talk about that. I mean, we try to keep a very positive UM. The conversations and and the outlook for everybody is as positive as you can, UM. And when we're fishing, we don't usually much talk about cancer. It's that experience. They all come back every single without fail, every single time they come back from that first fishing outing and we sit in that group conversation, somebody will say the words, I didn't think about my cancer one time while I was while I was fishing. But it's tough. I mean that that you lose guys, but UM, but it's it's an honor to give them an experience where they get to uh not have cancer for a few hours on the water. UM. Reese, who started Hank Patterson with me, passed away a little over three years ago. So he had melanoma. Uh you know where sunscreen. Um had melanoma that just got into his system and ultimately he passed away from brain cancer. So one of my best friends, and so that he was forty four at the time, I suppose I have to I have to do math, and I'm really and Reese would be the first to tell you that in really have you have you found, um, I haven't had like I haven't had. I've had very limited exposure to people who uh had an illness where you knew kind of where it was headed right that you knew you had a finite period of time to live. I've seen it with old people. But you're at You're in a different space. Have you found that when you deal with people in their thirties, forties, fifties, whatever, um, and they know that they have some limited model time to be alive? Are they on average? Are they like kicking and screaming in to it, or do they hit like a point of of resignation moving toward that date? You know? I you asked me if I had kids. I have two daughters and they've they're both older, and they've moved out of the house. And people asked me, I'm going somewhere with this. People asked me all the time, I thought you were like talking to someone phone. People asked me, you know it was that hard when they when they moved out, and I said, it's just this natural, something natural happens. It's time, it's their time to to move on. And Uh, the experience that I've had where I'm close with somebody who's who's going through cancer, um, who passed away. There there seems to come a time where there is there's nature I think can take over. And I don't know if the word is resignation, but that's maybe the closest thing that you know, that that I can come up with um, but that they do accept it. And and you know, there's sort of a natural thing. I'm sure that some people, you know, I guess we all would experience it in a different in a different way. I did an interview with Reese when he was getting pretty sick, and and he said one of the most surprising things about his experience of having cancer was just how shocked everyone was, Oh my god, and he and he said, it's you know, death and and you know, whether it's cancer, getting hit by a bus, whatever, that's the one thing we're all assured of. And so he said, you know, the more you think about it, the more you just sort of come to terms with it, and you have there's a comfort there in the fact that well, it's just my turn. Everybody has to experience it. And I guess that's sort of the natural sort of thing that I think it's when I picture it. Yeah, the thing I pictured, the only thing I pictured, if I imagine, and imagining it happened to you is very gross approximation to it happened to you. When I imagine it happening, I imagine. The only thing that I would really care that much about is, uh, the anxiousness about not being able to like, not being able to see what was going to happen to your kids. Yeah, and that that was a question mark. The question mark. Yeah, I'd be like, you know what, if you can just tell me, if I can just watch a video clip of them in twenty years, that sort of sets the cool. Yeah. But until you give me that capability, I will kick and scream. Yeah, that would be the part that would kill me. He certainly talked a lot about the fact that his you know, he he felt like he was letting his family down and to not be there as his kids got older, uh, to have an influence on him, the type of influence that he wanted to have as a dad. Um. I that that that hurt him a lot. Um, But again, you just you know, he set out to create as many memories as he could, and I think a lot of those guys, you know, that that we talked to that UM come to the retreats and UM are in that same space. They're just you know, they're trying to live in the moment. They're trying to create memories. They're trying to be appreciative of the things that they've experienced, and certainly there's a bummer of the things that they haven't yet got to do that they thought they would. And I think we'll all face that. I mean, at one point we'll all go, oh shit, I don't get to go do that thing that I always thought I would get to do. Um. You ever see the movie In My Life Without Me? No, dude got out. Anyways, it's Gal. She gets she's terminally ill, and it's about her. She doesn't want to tell her husband and doesn't want to tell her kids, but she sets about getting their lives squared away. Oh yeah, including finding him a new woman. Oh yeah, Nope, nope, nope, nope. That tear me apart. I can't do it. That's a tricky movie. UM. On the comedy. No, So you're involved in this, you want to you want to raise some money for it, and that's how you come up with that's how you start doing parodies, fly fish and parodies. Yeah, we just wanted to win the comedy you know award for the Drake Magazine competition, and we did. What was the reward? Well, now Tom buys the Yeah, he's a guy who runs out and uh, I haven't met him. We've talked on the phone. You never met him. No, I met him, Mom, I met him in Colorado one time. He was nice on the phone. He's smaller than you expect. He doesn't remember me when we met. He probably doesn't want to meet me. I'm a pretty you know, I'm a sizeable, you know, timidating. Yeah, you know. I mean I'm six ft one eight five. Um, I don't look at on video, but I work out, yoga, yogurt, the whole thing. Intimidated by just sitting here. Yeah. Yeah, Well I almost came in a half shirt and I thought about it, but I was like, I don't want to ruin a good shirt. Uh yeah, what what the hell are we talking about? Did you have so you genuinely like to fish? Though? I do. I love so you harbored somewhere in you? Yeah, you harbored someone in you disdain for yourself. Yeah, I just I took a a an incredibly inept but overly confident character and made him a fishing guide, somebody who knew absolutely nothing and had zero patients. Everything that you need to know and do, and the type of character I believe you need to be to be a good fishing guy. You you need to be somebody that wants to teach, You need to be somebody with knowledge. I mean, these are the things that make a good fishing guide. So I took a very angry, uh impatient person who really had no clue what the hell he was talking about, and made him a fishing guide. I had never fished with a guide in my life. When when we made the first no no, I get that asked a lot. I have people email me all the time trying to hire me as a guide. You've seen the videos. I'm like, I know I should like collect you're a restaurant where there are restaurants staffed by aspiring actors who are hostile. Yeah, I've seen this to the clients. Yeah, I don't know why anybody would want that. So people call you they want to be guided by a parody of an full guide. Yeah, and they want you know, they want the whole experience they want me to yell at them. They want me to get drunk, they want me to fall asleep in a chair, they want me to not tie their fly on, they want everything is the opposite of what you would want out of a guided trip. The anti guide. Yeah, And people are like, how did you make those videos if you've never even fished with a guide? I'm like, well, it's like, you know, I don't. It doesn't take that much to figure out what a guide must do and then just do a shitty job. I mean, it's like, what do they do? They tie on flies and they tell you where to cast, and they make you a sandwich, and all you have to do is be really bad at that. And I was, But as as someone who has who guided for a lot of years and hung out with a lot of guides, yeah, your approximation be it over the top is actually not that far off some of the angry terrible guides who I've worked with and run trips, because it's exactly like you kind of. I can see why people ask that question, because I personally assumed that you had been connected to guiding culture and had some experience with it. Would get a hold of me and say that they loved it, just because finally somebody got to say and do all the things that they've wanted to say and do for like twenty years. You got to behave towards clients, And I thought you should get a new job. If this is how you want to treat people, if this is what your job makes you feel like, you should probably like go be a banker or an accountant or something, because that's that's terrible. But then then I've gone out the probably yeah, I know, they don't. The problem is though, that you then go out with guides who have clients with them, and you realize it's all the client's fault. It's typically the client's fault there to blame. And I'm on the guide side. The general public is they're horrible. They can't I mean, the general public can't be trusted to be seated and at Applebee's an order confidently let alone go out on a drift boat. Have never cast a fly line in their lives and expect them to act like nice or well or anything. So I don't if you had to rate, uh, do an honest job with this, If you had to rate yourself on a sliding scale of one, to ten as an angler, where would you put yourself six? You're six. Yeah, that's a good answer because you can't really say much higher that because you look bad. Said a nine, I'd be like, come on, well, I'll say this. I would maybe rate myself higher if we include sort of everybody the fly fishing, right, I mean, because there are a lot of general public. I mean I'm talking about the guys that everyone who everybody that Yeah, well you have the guys that go out twice a year with a guide and they've got, you know, ten thousand dollars worth of equipment, and they're going to drop all the money in the world on this guide, and they're gonna fly in and they're going to expect to be put on fish, and they're going to call themselves a fly fisher. And they know absolutely nothing about fly fishing. They learned just enough to where they can kind of cast a little bit, and the guide knows because he wants a good tip of you know, sort of where the easiest fish to catch our for this guy's inability to cast and get a good drift. And so these guys are you know, probably at a two. And so if we mix all of them in I'm a six and a half all day long. Yeah. Yeah, but if we're talking about like really good anglers, we're talking about April Bokey earlier, like if she's at ten, then I'm pushing it to call myself a six. Yeah, I'm with you, Steve. I want to know where would you rate yourself? Yeah, as an angler, but I'm involved the two kinds of angland. No, no, no, no, Well can we just say fly fishing or are we just talking about angling? Because if we're talking about angling as a whole bass gear, the whole thing, and I'm definitely a three as a generalist. Yeah, I'm not gonna I'm not comfortable rating myself as a generalist angler. I'll just do the one. I'll just do like he did. Six. Yeah, because you don't look like slightly better than average. Yeah, you don't look cocky, you don't look like you're under you don't like you're trying to be like false false. The bar is lower for the generalist angler or guys, higher for the general's angle. Yeah, I'm with Steve on this. You got to know general everything, right, but so that so that the general bar that you would have to be better than it's probably lower because I don't think there are out there that actually are that great of generalist anglers. As there's a lot of guys that can just crush it out here on the Yellowstone and you go ask them to go catch a catfish in the nearest reservoir, I wouldn't know where to start, Okay, so they put it. But you know what I mean, No, I know exactly me because when I think of a generalist angler, um like, for instance, uh, offshore right, no clue, I have no clue. Uh, I know what you're saying. Like the guy that just can go to the same stretch of river when it's good and just catch a bunch of fish. I'm never interesting that guy or that knows how to fish some lake real well for some specific thing like that's great, I'm glad for you, like I hope you have a good time. But in talking about like, is that where I would aspire to be as a fisherman. As a fisherman in my in my mind, if someone asked me like to articulate what is a great fisherman, in my mind, it would be someone who can just no matter where you put them. And there are guys like this. No matter where you put them, they're gonna catch fish. Right. They just understand fish. They can figure anything out. You can send them to a state they've never been to the river, they've never been to fish they've never seen before, and at the end of the day, they're catching fish that in my mind, that, in my mind is a great angler. I'm a seven. I already thought I thought. I'm sitting here listening, I'm thinking I could. I could probably catch that catfish offshore. Not a problem. I'm I'm a seven and a half. Easy. The more the more you talk, the better I get. Can you tie a Baminy twist? Yeah? Oh yeah, sure, yeah. If we had the baminy materials here right now, I'd do it, do it right now. Let me ask you this, Yeah, I sense do you You don't fish, You haven't fished with guides. You feel, but you have a little bit of h you feel. It's not as it's it's not as like if you're gonna make a fishing purity scale, Yeah, what should be an interesting exercise. You're gonna make a fishing purity scale. I'm gonna get in trouble here, is gonnaasy, No, I I don't. I think that's that's a very subjective area to go. But let's let's let's move on. Let's se where this going. I didn't say, like if the universe were to come up with you were fair enough? Yeah you me, you, Miles, settle Down, Hank Travis, Yeah, Sam? Have you guided a little bit? Not like professionally full time but under the table? No? No, No. The question wasn't so you taught? Somebody had a fish? Have you guided? Did at the end of this I paid to teach people? Okay, well what did you get a tip? Yeah? You guided? Did you get drunk while you did it? Yeah? If you're gonna make depending on which time, if you were going to make a fish purity scale, right, I sense that you would have major deductions for guided expedition. No, no, no, no, no, So okay, let's back up, which is cool with me. I don't care, no, no, I'm just talking about a specific breed of human being that considers themselves at ten because they go out twice a year and have somebody show them exactly what that doesn't go and figure it out. That can only figure it out if somebody else figures it out for them. Holds their hand and does it. People ask me all the time, it's like, how, what's the best way to get into fly fishing? Hire a guide. Don't have your spouse teach, you don't have your girlfriend teach, you don't have hire a guide. Go out, hire a guide, take some classes. This is how, because your girlfriend's gonna yell at you. Well. Yeah, And if you're anything like me, it's like if if my daughters wanted to learn to fly fish, and they don't, but if they did, I know, can you hold that thought for a minute. Yeah, I gotta really come back to that. Yeah, yeah, hold that thought, John, Yeah, come back. They do not fish. They have like zero interest. Let's talk about that. I'm real disappointed in your girls. Yeah no, I I and I am. I don't tell them every single day. And and that's it goes back to me talking about you know, were you disappointed when they moved out? Hell? No, they don't fish. They're on their own. I've cut them loose. They're not you know, getting their college paid for nothing. It's all. They're cut off until they learn how to fish. When they want to learn how to fish, they're gonna need to hire a guide. It's the same thing as like, why wouldn't you teach them how to fish? I'm like, I didn't teach them how to drive because I don't want a situation where I want to punch one of my daughters. That's why I don't want to teach them how to fish. That you shouldn't teach your children how to fish. Have somebody else teach them, have them get them to a certain point where you can actually go out and have a good time. Driving is the same sort of thing. So I never I never taught them. If if people want to learn how to fly fish, hire a guide, and if you're going to go to New Water, you could not spend better money than to hire a guide. If you're gonna go fish the Blackfoot. I'm not I'm not declaring legit giving advice right now. My advice is if you're going to go fish, like some rivers like, say you're gonna go and fish the Blackfoot or the clark Fork or the yellow don't whatever, and you're gonna be there for five days, money well spent on day one, have a guide, get all the information you can out of that guide, and then if you want to go it alone from there then go it alone. But do you feel like a real h Do you feel like a real prick the next day when you're standing there and there he is with today's client and you're standing there angling away? What? Yeah, what is the etiquette there? Shouldn't go to a spot that's not true because you paid him once there's an exchange of money. Well, yeah, I mean I understand, I've heard you made that, make that point before, never made that point before. I'm going back to the spot. I gotta hear this because if I'm going back, I mean, it depends. We discussed it, sorry, when we discussed it over outfitting hunters in the same ethical conundrum. Okay, what did I say that time? Same thing I'm saying now, Yeah, that's consistency. I'm on your side, by the way for this thing, because I think, I think, I think, I think, man to man, it's like if if yeah, I mean I think that that would be kind of a betrayal of the guide's trust to be in in his hole the next day. I mean, if he if he saw you there, he's probably gonna be like, oh man, come on, really, here's the thing though. I mean, you're gonna hopefully if you hired a guide, you're gonna not fish a hole, You're gonna fish a stretch of water, and you you should certainly go back to that stretch water with the knowledge that you now paid to have. Now, now that being said situation, because there is a significant issue with offshore guides and flats Guides with clients who pay them for a day, go out and have a GPS in their pocket hidden marking way points on all the spots that they fish, so they can then go and hit those spots subsequently with their buddies. And this is this is not just frowned upon. This is like fighting behavior people. People have had boats set a light over this kind of like this is some Tom mcgwain type type ship that happens over this. Well, this is new topic for me. It gets I'm just throwing this out there. I wouldn't do it personally. I wouldn't like the way it made me feel. But let's say I was commander of the universe. Okay, I'm command of the universe. I'm listening and and I uh and and and the only punishment I give out is execution anything anyone guilty of any infraction. It's execution and you come to me and a guide's like, I say, a confession and he paid me a bunch of money and the next day, uh, he went to the spot. I would have a hard time executing that person. Now, if you said, is it a killable offense? No, probably not. Well that's all all right, yeah, I mean, if that's if that's our borrow like off with his head or as you were when when you were when you're commander Steve works. When you're taking the client out, I mean, how clear have you been? Have you educated them on the fact that, hey, look, I'm going to take you to some spots that I don't want you to come back to on your own without me. Are you asking me like my own personal history? If a guide were to say that to me and say, hey, look we're gonna go down this, you know, and I would appreciate that you don't come back here. Now, I think if flats and there's there's just different scenarios. It doesn't matter who cares how deep the water is. Yeah, I don't know, because if you start, if you like water being shallow, water off limits, but that deep all ahead. But look, if you floated a section of the Yellowstone. I mean, it's all fair game at that point because you've floated whatever six to ten miles and you pulled over in a dozen different holes. Like nobody can say anything at that point. But I feel like on a way trip when you might have just fished a hole or two. Oh yeah, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm gonna make this even a little more complicated because the when I float such stretch of water, the way I prefer to do it, rather than just like doing the boat jockey thing and be like no switch sudes, no switch sudes. I like to stop and actually fish holes with clients. So certain clients I have told, Hey, this spot we're coming up to up here, you can get there by foot, you know, if you want to come, do this on your own. Cool. I do ask that you don't bring all your buddies. I have definitely done that in my guide career before. Why don't you guys, uh, why don't you guys come out with some little sheet of paper. Yeah it wouldn't be like enforceable, but just some little sheet of paper that expresses your where you what you feel about. Because I think that you're asking a lot of something like, listen, Okay, I did a I fished with the guide. Recently, we went to St. Martin. I had to go to St. Martin for two days for a birthday party, very special birthday party for a very special friend. M and me and some other dudes that were there wanted to go fish and we hired a guy to go for a half day of fishing. Now, we just kind of wandered around looking yea the half day man, I'm trying to stay married, right, I got you. Now. Uh, we go out and just walk the shore looking first off, working bait and cast and I was one thing. I was like, Wow, I had no idea was this. It's this easy that could have done in your mind in your mind. Does that then mean that I should refrain from fishing because he introduced me to the idea of walking down the beach looking for bait. Yeah, but he he selected that particular shoreline and if you were back there at the next he might have other clients there. And if you were on the beach in front of him, I feel like that affects his ability to do his job with the next group of clients would be very awkward. But where whereas the yellow stone floating as a stretch, and you're not really getting in anybody's way because there's gonna be lots of other people there, but that particular shoreline he probably walked it because it's good, and he probably takes people there pretty regularly. I'm gonna I'm gonna throw this out in a different way because here's what I if. It's not that I've gotten to do this very often, but the few times that I have gone somewhere like your suggesting, Travis, and like I'm a fish here for a few days, I'm going to hire a guide. For the first day, I will have an explicit conversation say, hey, listen, I'm here for X number of days. I'm hoping to fish throughout those days. Is the only day that I'm going to be guided. So one, I'd love to have a good time and learn something about your fishery. And two, could you please give me some suggestions on places I might go fishing? Done that too, and also in doing your idea which I love throw out there. I'll never come back here. I'll never be back again. Like chances are, yeah, my wife's the home. She's sick, she's got sick from the water. I'm not coming back here. I'll never be back to start your day like that. I just want to start by saying, you will never see me again. This is the last time you're ever gonna see me. Unless you stumble upon me fishing this water, you're gonna see me at that point. HAYK Patterson's take on this entire thing, if I could just jump into that, would be that you're going to sign that piece of paper and it's in perpetuity, and now I'm gonna take you. I'm gonna show you a stretch of water, right and now every time you fish that stretch of water, you don't have to pay the full price, but you are going to pay me fifty dollars in perpetuity. And this is gonna go for the rest of your life. So for the rest of your life. And by the way, every single fly that I put on your line that works is now a dollar. It's a dollar to me every time you buy that flock. So if I tie on a Royal Wolf, every time you buy a Royal Wolf at whatever fly shop across the country, you now owe me a dollar for having introduced you to that specific fly. And I think that takes care of the problem right there, because now eventually just kick on commissions exactly. Yeah, yeah, you're so all those flats guys and everything, and I have not gone out and then fished with them, but I've word on the street is they're all piste off. And so now these guys, you know, you do it for like three years, you take out enough people and you get, you know, a legal document signed where in perpetuity, if they ever want to fish in the state of Florida again within a hundred yards or a hundred miles of where you took help, if they want to fish that side of Florida ever, again, it's a hundred dollars to you. And I think you get the states involved, and I I think this is an enforceable thing. And then if you don't want to sign that paper, then you know you then it's a fifteen thousand dollar day rate or good luck. Yeah, I mean, do you want to catch fish? Sign the document? What's your take on because I think one of the funniest pieces of years is it's funny. I had always liked this but didn't even put it together because I liked it a long time ago, and then I started watching all this stuff you do, and I was like, oh my god, that's the guy who did the UM. The two dudes on the bank who are trying to find out they're very they're they're confused by catching release. Yea, that is by far the most popular video I ever made. It's not even close, and it was very unexpected. Remember I do remember, no, I don't, it's Hank in the bait Fishers, and so they're it's probably like a fifteen I don't. It's probably ten or twelve minutes. All my videos are longer than they say they should be. UM. But I at the beginning of that episode, I'm talking. I'm asking the guys why they're here, why are you here? And one of them says, I guess I've always been a little fly curious. And when I wrote that, and every episode I always try to write, like what are people going to quote back at me? And I thought, this fly curious thing is going to be gold, and I mean it was. But then it goes into the catching me Hank explaining the process of catching release and he's like so and then you release it into a cooler no, back into the water, and then they start talking about like, well if you're not going to catch them to eat them. Aren't you just torturing fish? Which is a you know, pretty solid question. Really before what happened was somebody went to YouTube and they grabbed that part of my video. They took the rest of it out, and it got like forty million views. And I'm like, also that you you're explaining, Hank Patters is explaining if you let him go, then someone can catch them again. Yeah. And you guys like, oh, so you're fattening them up. Yeah, we're just trying to wrap their heads around. Okay, so you let them go to fatten them up so that then you can keep them at a later date. Okay, shrewd. Shrewd sounds like the conversation we have around this office a lot. Yeah, it's uh. Well, and then that one then I had the same group of guys out, uh, and we did a follow up, like and I think my imagination went wild, and I named it Hanking the bait Fishers Part two. Uh. And in this one, I'm explaining what is a fly? Because you've got the square of me worm and you've got I mean streamers, and you've that that that one raises some really interesting points it really it's it's a great question because when you're finishing with a rappola, it has a feather on it, so it's a fly route, so that's a fly? Or makes it a fly? When it's not a fly? What does make it a fly? Do you guys know? I have no idea. This is a longstanding shift. I call this a perfect example of a shifting baseline. Like if you think about the concept of the shifting the baseline of what counts as fly fishing or a fly you can go way back. You know, if you want to go several hundred years back into England, it wouldn't count. Some people would say, well, if you're not fishing downstream, it's not fly fishing. Those guys who go who cast upstream, they're not fly fisherman, they're not of our stature. Okay, I want to really, I want to really explore this, but I don't understand. I feel I feel like I could understand anything you say about this, but I don't understand that one. So there there too, they think you should be like, you can't cast up No, literally, you cannot cast upstream, like even above parallel with yourself. In certain styles of traditional fly fish, and there are streams where that's codified like it is all you will get rolling off the stream if you cast up river. Give me the perspective, Um, I want you to role play. Role play, that's gonna be good. You give me the perspective of the guy. Yeah, with an English or Scottish accent. That's not gonna work. The guy doesn't think you should cast kind of upstream British accent, right right, right, Well, I don't think I'm gonna do that. Um. I think the issue always when I have to do one, I always go to things I learned from Pink Floyd album. Every time you go to you with whatever brick in the wall part three. If you don't, um, I cannot. I think I'm gonna blow this because I really don't know the exact I don't know your question, but I think what it is is that there was a belief that casting upstream was essentially like cheating, because if your fly is just drifting down the current, then you know the fish is just gonna stream. That's easy. It's harder to get up above him, but to have to cast across and and swing your fly in front of the fish and get him eat now that requires real skill and angling prowess. Okay, I'll buy that. So again, I will not buy that, because there's anytime I want to get a guy out that has never fly fished, the first thing I do is I find a rising fish. I put him upstream of it so he can just like basically pull out some line, doesn't cast it, just chuck it in there, down struck it and float it down to him. I'm not saying this theory is right. I'm just that's that's it. I hadn't even thought of that. I feel like if you said to me, you can spend your whole life casting upstream or downstream, and your goal in life is to catch as many fish as possible, I would pick downstream. I would too, Yeah, me too, no question. So I could see having a river. What a snooty English guy who says you can only cast them? Oh they do? Yep, there are that argument out to me. I think you just did, right, I mean, but like they're the point being that there are these these totally arbitrary divisions that have been created within and it's I mean, I think fly fishing is particularly guilty of this, and it's part of why it's so much fun to make fun of it. I think this is what puts the joy in it, these arguments, That's that's what puts all the joy and going out fly fishing, just having somebody tell you what you're doing wrong, wrong, But I mean were wrong, you're casting it wrong, now wrong, draft downstream. It's just yeah, not a fly, that's what we're talking about. Tell me what a fly is? Yeah, I mean here, here's here's what. I don't want to see one. I don't want to see one, but I can't if I had to write, like if the folks over at Webster's or Miriam's said like, hey, we're trying to find someone to craft the definition of a fly, um and we were we're tasking you with the chore, I would have a very difficult time. I've come to the conclusion I don't want to see it any any artificial thing that you use with a fly rod. That's just what I've come to. But it's real feathers. But well you have to have a feather. Well I'm not always but fly fishing could be a bead, you know. Fly fishing could be the squirmy wormy. Fly fishing could be a mop fly. They're now going to home depot buying mops, lopping a chunk of that off, tying it on a hook, and this is now a fly and that's meant to replicate rotten flesh. I don't know what it do? You know what that reply? Like a maggot or something like that, and why are you fishing in maggoty water? It really brings that Looking at me on this, I actually I'm looking at you because I'm like, it's going down to the home depot and pulling this crap out right. I mean, you were a fishing guide, right for many many years, so you would not have been too proud to tie a mop and bober on a guy's line. God no, I just have an anything that credit card his pocket. At the end of the day, it would be that I'm doing your guys job for you. Wouldn't it be like, uh, whatever hooked device or whatever that is delivered not by its own weight, what was delivered by the weight of the line. I think, I think that that gets at it. But then you know, there's another situation and I'll make a plug for content on the Mediator website because we were just we're just about to publish a piece from our own Brodie Henderson discussing this this very thing and um and one he brought in was a buddy of his who is not a good fisherman, went down to the name, didn't didn't name him by name, went down to the Florida Keys and caught a couple of permit and a couple of bone fish in a place that's known for being extremely difficult to catch either those species. They found out later the guide had been soaking the fly in ground up crab and clam juice and shrimp and and so that feels like a departure, but you know it's still delivered through the mechanism of a of the weighted line and a light fly. But is that fly fishing? And it might might even be a fly with feathers, but that's not exactly what's getting it done in that situation. So you feel, yeah, I don't want to blabor the point here, but uh, you feel that orderless, that olderless would be something that you would throw into the working definition. I'm I'm not I'm not taking a side on it, No, No, I'm just curious. Yeah, I feel like that's a just a choice I would probably not make to do that, But did you cast an odorless fly into a chump slick? Well? And you know, and I went, uh shark mako shark fishing off San Diego one. I'm on a flat quote unquote fly fishing trip and the only cast I made all day was just to feel out a sixteen weight fly rod. But that's all we did is sit there all day looking at chump's leg. But that's like how you raise those makos up to be able to make a four ft cast while it circles the boat trying to eat you. Um, So I mean I've I've done that. I didn't have a problem with it. We didn't end up seeing any MACHOs um, which I really wanted to see one. And I would have that one tire fly that emits noise, Yes, so that's rat well like like a rattle in it. Yeah, but not like video about this. You're comfortable with that, I'm putting you. You're in a little bit of a devil's advocate position. Okay, yeah, I'll play a devil's advocate. I'm uncomfortable with noise. So you're comfortable deceiving the fish visually, you're comfortable deceiving the fish orally and I don't mean a O R, but a you are using it right, Yeah, how because I only don't want to deceive it or you actually are disgusting. So you're gonna and you're gonna trick, but you're not comfortable deceiving it fatally factoral sense, I'm not comfortable with it. That's where you draw a line. But but but hell, I mean but and and and to echo Browdie's point that I definitely resonated with, is like, at that point, just throwing a shrimp. I don't have a problem with bait fishing. Yeah, I know we're not getting into you think he did something bad, But I'm just saying, like you get into like what your personal terms are. Yeah, I think I think through the fly cast that becomes the far problem. Well, I'm saying with a spin rod. But yeah, I feel I feel like at that point you're not really fly fishing. But because you're not deceiving the fish through the action of the fly itself, they're grabbing it because it smells good. And so I feel like that is a that is a fairly clear departure from what fly fishing is my mind. Give me the Hank Patterson take on this. I'm gonna add ham juice to my floating. I'm going home. I'm adding ham juice to my floating. That's all there is to it. Yeah, I I I don't you know. I mean, Hank would absolutely dip the fly in and he smelly whatever, but he would threaten your life while doing it. He'd be like, I'm gonna dip this in this ham juice, and if you ever say anything at all, I will kill you. I will track you down and I will kill you. I will start with your parents. I will start with your children. You will die. But he would he would do it as long as it was a secret. Yeah, so that guy. So what's so the real crime of what this guy did, as far as dipping is tell anybody. I mean, that's the crime. It sounds like all the makings right he got. I assume he got a picture of himself with the fish, with the fly, and it's that's all you had. And then all somebody snitched, somebody spoke up. This guy let the cat out of the bag. So I'd say I let him fry. Let him fry for not being able to be quiet about it. But I have no problem with him dipping it in ham juice or whatever it was, shrimp juice, but yeah, crab juice. I think this is one of the like central reasons why fly angling gets of well deserved bad rap is arguments just like this. This is my next question. Well, I'm sorry to preempty. I'm I'm gonna continue again like this that do Yeah, I think I think they're probably people listening right now going like Jesus Christ, why who cares? Like what? What? What does any of this matter? And then the truth that I do, Yes, I do. I absolutely think about the topic about what wait what know? The like this concept of purity like it started with this idea of the purity scale, which to me gets at this assumption that there are greater and lesser ways of catching fish. And I think that fly anglers often get pigeonholed as being those guys who judge the way that other people fish as lesser than themselves because maybe their egotistical pricks that's possible, or maybe they've just been conditioned into this culture that that values one thing or another. I personally would and to tie this back to another conversation, I would rather be known as someone who's a good angler than solely an exceptional fly angler. And I think that flying like we have created people who fly fish have created this ethos for themselves that makes them really easy to make fun of and to consider to be, you know, jerks, because they say, well, you caught that on bait, You caught that on a crab soaked flyer, you caught this on something that's not as good as what I did. Who cares. You're going out and fishing, and you're having fun as long as you're respecting the resource and you're staying within the law. Who cares how you caught the fish. Whatever makes you happy is the way you should do it. And and I think that that the whole flaningle community could do better. Just kind of step down and relax a little bit. There can be an appreciation for somebody catching it in a way that does make it more of a cult. Well, start that starts to fall apart. Well, if I'm started to fall afar because I would say, okay, catch it on a bar hook, catch it on a bear hook. If it's all about what makes it hard ton put nothing on there, Yeah, it's extremes. Yeah. Well, and then the argument comes in Did you you caught it on a bear hook? Is it because you're good or you found really stupid fish? They accidentally they accidentally inhaled it. I'll tell you when I used to guy on on the Big Horn early season, one of the dirtiest tricks in the book for those guys would be to take a bear giant, bright red hook and fish that because those fish just attacked it. And among the guy in the community that that was a thing that was looked down about it. Maybe it was a mayby San Juan worm. No, it was huge. It was like it was a big gamagatsu octopus. Hook in red had to be read and it was a dirty, dirty trick. Makes it yeah so much. Again, I'm not saying like among the community of people who were fishing that there wasn't a piec of art attackt to it. Oh yeah, I used to fish it. He's always fishing underneath my bead because then it was still like you're fishing instead of just fishing a bead and a hook. Now you're fishing a bead and a San Juan spaghetti and meatballs. I'd be talking about how long it took me to tie it. Do you tie your own flies. I tied these, the whole box of them last night. It's just nothing greater than catching a fish on a on a fly that you tied, and I tied this one, and it's just raking fish. It's fantastic. But I think this this points the figured how ridiculous the whole thing is. You came up with the most difficult thing to do, like, well, just a bear hook, and there are people within this community who go like, well, that's cheating. That these are the level of ridiculous rules that we have pleased upon ourselves for what like you're not gonna it doesn't matter, like you're not winning a trophy or a prize, which also brings up I got asked the question on a on a thing recently an interview where they were asking me how I felt about fly fishing competitions, expecting me to say, oh my god, that's the most horrible thing I've ever heard, that somebody would have a fly fishing competition until you're taking it and and well, like you go out and and you have like a tournament, you know, fly fishing, like a bass tournament, and bring them you don't bring them back home with you. I don't know. I mean, you probably have to have a judge with you to measure it because it's all about you know, length, and like actual size doesn't matter, right, it's just all about length. As long as it's eighteen inches and a half a pound is better than a four pound seventeen inch fish. Um. But people get really upset about the notion that you would have any sort of a derby or tournament in fly fishing like they would in bass fishing or something like that, right, And the question came to me on how I felt, and I thought, well, I don't. I'm pretty sure I'm not the fun police. I don't care. I mean, if as long as they're respecting the resource, and what do I care? How they go and enjoy their day, and if they want to have a derby or a tournament catching fish and measuring that, it doesn't sound interesting terribly to me, Like I don't want to go do it. I mean, I don't need the disappointment in my life because I'm not gonna win, you know. And it's like I get made fun of enough, I don't need to also go out and prove that I'm not a six, I'm a two. Uh So I wouldn't do it, but he had had somebody else that he had interviewed a couple of weeks prior that was adamantly against it and thought it was absolutely destroying fly fishing in the world of fly fishing, and the history of fly fishing. Was Oh yeah, that it just it just takes everything everything that he thinks flying that he thinks fly fishing should be about. Is I see both sides of that because because I I understand, I understand that perspective, and it makes me slightly uncomfortable to see kind of the carnival aspect of the carnival atmosphere surrounding bass fishing or fly fishing um and where whereas I see those those sports as you know, personal time and opportunity to hang out with friends and commune with nature. And I mean it's very it's deeply spiritual to me. But at the same time, I think it's also inherently competitive. Anytime you put two guys in a boat, they're trying to do better than the other one. So it's just kind of a logical extension of that. On the on the other hand, well, I'm with you on the fact I don't want to do it. It doesn't sound interesting to go to the tournament to me, but that's a personal choice. And and and you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, the biggest lie that I've ever told in fly fishing was, oh, well, I'm glad at least one of us caught a fish, because I don't care. If I'm out fishing with a friend, I don't care if he, you know, caught a fish. I want to catch a fish. Him catching and fish might make it no, not even my It makes it worse that I didn't. If I'm gonna get skunked. If I'm not going to catch anything, then I could also not to have caught anything. I want to return, and I'll admit that I want to return to parody from it. But I realized we never we never finished the thing about jail and jail miles. I have been in handcuffs multiple times, but I've never been booked. So they coughed you. Yea, then they let you go. Yeah, they detained you. I was detained. I have been detained more than once, but I've never been I've been to the station. I've never been booked. They change, they keep changing their mind. I think the last time it happened. I was sixteen, so I think they were just trying to, you know, scare me straight. And I may have had a wayward youth, and so I had a few run ins with the local cops. Never coughed or been in jail. You've been coughed, been thrown in jail, You've been in cars rated? Nope, no I have not. I'm we were talking about this before. I think I'm good at talking talking to cops. I'm very polite and deferential, which is what my dad taught me. Just apologize a lot, and so that's that's what I That's what I do. And I got friends and I I'm so sorry that I shot that guy in college. I got my friends and I out of a lot of trouble. When whenever, when whenever cops would show out at our house that had three hundred people and it and allowed music playing it too in the morning, you would have got it ran out of the yard. I was. I was the one. I was the designated police liaison. I had to spend one night in jail, and my goodness that it uh uh. I came out of wanting to live a cleaner life. They had its effect. How old were you two old enough to know better? A little drinking? Yeah, to drinking? Um, yeah, a little drinking. I got charged with resisting arrest, which I thought was a trumped up charge. That was you didn't it was a stretch. When he went to cuff me, it surprised me. They cuff me, and it startled me. So I went to withdraw. You know, if he had said I'm gonna cuff you, now, I would have held out my hands like they do in the movie. But but he he STU. Boy, did I write a letter of apology? You would? I wish I had a copy of the letter of apology I wrote to that officer, so that that's where you really knew the writing career was gonna pay pay off that one. It was heartfelt. You got ahead of gailed out and took it away from me. Are you finished with your jail story? You just told me he hadn't been to jail. I know, I was onto the next thing. Oh well, I'm not okay, that's sorry, I'm asking. I thought I thought I had a second to jump in. But go ahead, now that I'm through talking about jail. If you didn't change the subject, please, Well, I had a good opportunity at a segue, but you, uh, you stole it by going back to the jail thing. But I was thinking that all these arguments that we have within the fly fishing um space, is that maybe a reason that your daughters don't fish? The argument, the argument, everything we just we're discussing the like the purity of fly fishing and what makes what's the definition of fly fishing and all this stupid stuff that really doesn't matter, making it not fun. Is that maybe why your daughters don't fish? Yeah, I don't. I don't. I don't think so. I mean I they just from an early age showed well before the argument of what it means to fly fish came into play, They just ever showed an interest in fly fishing. I say that, and then I no, I mean I took him out a couple of times. I mean they fished. I mean I took him out. How do you the greatest failure like that a person could ever experience? Well, I mean we all we all have our own path. Uh, you know, there's there's certainly it's unfortunate that they don't enjoy fly fishing, but they do enjoy, you know, going out outside to like get in a car. Yeah, I mean the outside certainly leads to yeah, like a restaurant or or them all or a friend's house or something like that. Um. How many times they trying to call in doorsy? Um? How many times did you try? How many times did you take them fishing? When when they were growing up? We we drug them along? And maybe that's just what I just said, we drugged them along. Uh. This was maybe this was their way of of, um, you know, going against me or you know there will show him we won't learn to fish. Um, that was their rebellion was to not learn how to fly fish? You know that. Maybe that's it. Uh. My oldest daughter is twenty seven and my youngest daughter ise, have they been to jail? Well one of them probably should should go to jail, uh you know for a couple of days, you know, just to sent her on a path. Uh. The other one is is probably doesn't need jail at this point. She's she's a nurse working with dementia or and alzheimer patients. And actually she just got a new job. She works with hospice. Uh, so she doesn't need to go to jail now. The now the other one, you know, and I don't want to, you know, call her out, Zoe, but you know, Zoe, could you know, maybe like a three year stretch, just something to just something to straighten her out, you know, kind of get her on the right path the fight there. Well, so we've worked with the prison in Boise and uh the prisoners Thai flies for the real Recovery retreat in Idaho. Seriously, Yeah that's cool. Yeah, and so I could get her on that program she was in if she was in the joint. So how's that work out? I got a phone calls the one of the guys, one of the wardens out there, uh like St. Patterson and got in touch with me and said, hey, I you know, I'm a warden out of the prison. Oh shit, you know? Uh are you not her? Yeah, we haven't seen her a long time. Um So anyway, he got ahold of me and he said, hey, so I I do a thing. We we have a program out here. We're in this guy fly issues, right, So do you know that this was a racket? This guy's this guy wants free flies and so no good dude, and and so anyway, so he said they had a thing out there and that uh as long as it was a not for profit organization that they could tie flies and give them to us, and and we are so uh yeah, so they every cool. They tie a box for the guys and and then we get to say, hey, we had some prisoners tie these flies for you guys and so here. Yeah, so it's a pretty cool program. You want me to stump you guys on a piece of fly fish and trivia? Yeah? I do ready for this? Bring it on? Name for me? The two countries the two leading commercial fly tying countries, but not not the US. Kenya? How'd you know that? And Kenya would Thailand? I did not know? Kenya does it? Sri Lanka is up there too, it aren't they. Maybe I'm wrong I should have said that name two countries. I kind of. I started getting in there a little over my waiters by the leading, the leading. I was thinking of hobbyists, like where where where people happened to tie flies? It's not where they were commercially. Maufactured about fly sweatshops. As we're talking about all your flies come from sweatshops, So you know, no I don't. Yeah, I don't. Very sad places really, so oh yeah, no, not not all though I'm I'm I'm oversetting there. They're actually and and there are a couple of programs and I'm totally blanking on the name. Maybe Sam, you can help me remember this one. But there's a new fly company that came out in the last couple of years that is actually working with local communities as like a way to bring people up out of poverty. I know, I know one outfit, and hunturis that is doing that fair trade to change. Yeah, it's it's something like that. I think it's it's not quite that, but it's some of that. But there are there are some bad actors in that world who actually pay people terribly and that's wi flies is so cheap. And then there are other companies who are trying to pay people a little living wage and make it. Many of the many of the top fly fish of fly producing companies like up Quah and Montana Fly Company have have very good working conditions and and pay much higher wages than many of the other opportunities around those areas. And I know they take that quality control very very seriously and visit their facilities a lot. But I know there are also some real sweatshop situations going on fair trade flies. Man, that's a company i'd start, Yeah, I mean, just I'd go get the cheap as I could get them fair to me trade, sir? Enough? Is that sub three dollars? What is it that? Uh? What in your mind makes like what in your mind makes a culture or a group of people? Parodyable? That's not a word, but you know I'm pretty good paroitiable parodyable, yeah, right, right for parody. I think if you get a group of people that take something very very seriously, that it is ripe for parody. And now I I've been asked, you know, do you think that fly fishers take themselves too seriously? And I and the answers, no, I don't. I don't. It's not up to me how serious you want to be about fly fishing or anything else in your life. So you take it as seriously as you want. Um, that's not my job, So I don't, you know, but it does make it easy to make fun of you, um, and and your sports and what you like to do. And I'm one of them. I mean, I'm just I'm making fun of myself as well. I mean, there's no and I don't think mean spirited about the stuff that that I do. It's just too easy to take something that is so serious and there's so many arguments surrounding it. What's right, what's wrong? I mean, what's better? What's you know? Is nymphing actually fly fishing is there's so many arguments, and all those arguments that we've been talking about for the last hour are exactly what makes it parodiable is that it's It's also something that you know, when I make the joke, people start tagging their friends, and so you know you've hit the nail on the head because this is this is oh, that's you, John, Tom John, this guy just knelled you. This guy's got you, you know, and so you just start to know that one worked because people are now tagging each other in it. And so it's like the argument about whether what makes a fly a fly is is nymphing really you know, like a trashy way to fish, or is dry fly fishing the only real fly fishing? All those things and all the seriousness in which people have these arguments, it just makes it really really fun to to parody. You know, uh, take a guy like take a guy like Jeff Fox or who does parody um I would venture to guess that most of his audience is that his audience is not holy, but I would guess largely comprised of the subjects of his parody rednecks, right, right, Isn't that that's I think everybody likes it, But that's who takes the greatest joy in it because it's done from a place of love. It's like his humor, he's like, he parodies rednecks from a position of love and respect. And I'm one of you, right yeah. Uh is most of your audience people who think that fly fishermen are self righteous, annoying assholes as most of your audience fly fisherman. I think it's fly fisherman, you know. I mean I've had people tell me they got into fly fishing because of the fact that they watched my videos because they thought it was like, oh, I just thought it was a bunch of like, you know, tweed jacket with the leather on the elbows, sort of assholes. And then I watched your videos and I'm like, oh no, this is this is sort of a fun thing. I'll try it out. Um, it's it's fly fisherman, And and uh, I think it's people that you know, just think it's fun to be made fun of and things fun to make fun of themselves. And and I think most of them realize it's it's a joke. I'm just kidding around and and but everything that Hank does is comes from a place of logic. So if you watch him, I mean, as illogical as it is, you can follow his logic. You know, there's there's an absolute logic to it. So, um, I just try to pick up on conversations that I have with guys out life fishing, or the arguments they have, or the different videos. And I mean, how many more videos do we need on how to tie a certain not? It's like I was gonna make a video that you know. It's like, you know, people are calling me and they're asked me, Hank, how do I tie a surgeons not? And so what you're gonna want to do is you're gonna want to get two pieces of you tip it and you're gonna like line those side by side. Now you're gonna get a smartphone. You're gonna go to Google and you're gonna type in how do I tie a surgeon's not? There's seven thousand videos. Find the shortest one, there you go, and and so it's just you know, I think that the audience for Hank Patterson is definitely people that fly fish. Hardcore fly fishers like it, and guides like it, and some of them absolutely hate me. That's that's the next question. Because you're you're familiar with the movie Spinal Tap. Yeah, oh yeah, I don't know if it's true, but let's just pretend it's true. Uh, I heard that. I wish I knew what this is true. Yeah, I need type in the Cult and Spinal Tap. Let's let's let's not pretend that what I'm gonna tell you is true. I'm the singer from the Cult. I just got some kick ass songs. The singer from the Cult was insulted by Spinal Tap. Oh, he was insulted by a rock parody? Is that true? Really? Let's just say it was, uh for a minute, until we find out that it's not. Um, do you do a lot of fly fishermen get annoyed that you goof on it so hard? I don't know about a lot. I mean, it's it's like as far as comments that I read or emails that I get, and I don't get a ton of people that will like actually email me every now and then, or I'll get comments on my videos and stuff like that, and it it really is. You know, hundreds are more to one, but every now and then somebody absolutely hates what I do and they hate me, and it gets it can get really personal. I read one one time a guy had written like at least three geographs on how he was gonna because I was wearing an Orvis hat, he was going to return everything he had ever bought from Orvis because of my video and how much he now hated now he extended it to them, He now hated them as well for supporting what I did. And and uh, that guy takes himself too seriously probably, But but comedy, you know, I'll say this is that I don't get offended if somebody doesn't think that I'm funny, because comedy is absolutely subjective. Just because you don't think I'm funny doesn't mean that it isn't funny. It means that it isn't funny to you. Now when when those people think some stuff is objectively funny almost almost yeah, yeah, but meaning like if somebody says, I don't think Hank Patterson is funny the guy is obnoxious. He is obnoxious, you know. And if you don't like my style of comedy or you don't like the things that I do, I think that's fine. But now when it's personal and you aren't telling other people that they shouldn't like me, or you start threatening to take your gear back, because then you know, now it's all about you. It isn't about the fact that I mean, you can just stop the video and move on. I mean, you don't have people. The guy also had typed in there that he's like, I've watched three of your videos and and I thought you should have stopped it one, like like, well, maybe the most I've seen you get you getting. Yeah, I've seen Um I put a lot of images and stuff up on Instagram, which I like that platform a lot. I think that people go onto Facebook just to fight. People log into Facebook, theyre already they're already pissed. Yeah, you know, they're like, oh that Donald Trump. You know, they go into Facebook like with that attitude, right, Um, But Instagram people are kind of chill. But still you see stuff like you'll see, uh, you'll put a thing up and you'll see a little of some guys being like, oh, you know, oh this guy, he's the worst guy in the world, and a guy like, yeah, I gave up on him long ago. It's like, you're in my You're like comment, You're in my Instagram account carrying on a dialogue about it. You scroll, like, what is giving up on something? Look like to you you haven't given up, but that it isn't taking forty five minutes of your Monday afternoon to comment about me and how you've given up on me. But on the follow like, do you think it's because there's a lack of understanding of satire? Like do you think that those are folks who just don't understand the concept of satire and are taking it seriously and going this guy's asshole my favorite. I did an episode how to Survive Yellowstone National Park I remember well, and it starts with, um, thirty two million people visit yellow Stille National Park every single day. And it goes on to say, like these ridiculous numbers, forty two people die, you know, and and it then it just starts to stay, stay the f away from grizzly bears. Stay. That's all the advice that that Hank gives. So it gives these ridiculous statistics, and uh, this lady commented on there and she's like, this is ridiculous. I don't think any of this is true. I live in the Yellowstone area and all you're doing is getting people afraid to come here on those tourism dollars. And to say that thirty two million people visit every single day is ridiculous. It's not even close. And I thought, Wow, she did not understand satire whatsoever. And I feel like satire is a is a dying art. I think people are like taking things in the media just so literally. Now, we're so conditioned to take things literally and for since a sationalism sake that the idea of like and things are so sensational that are like just in our basic media that feel like satire. Like we're losing the concept of satire entirely. And it makes me sad. I love satire. I think Hank is at his best, and you know, and there's varying degrees even for me. I mean I watched the videos and it's like, oh man, I really like that one, and and you know, I mean there's varying degrees to how funny they might be. And if you make enough stuff. I mean, you make some stuff that hopefully everything you put out you believe in, and I do. I've I've made videos that I have never put out because I'm like, it's not funny enough, do not put it out? And uh and and so there's varying degrees, but um, I think Hank Patterson is definitely at his best when it blurs the line between like is this is this guy serious? Is this you know? I mean, if you start to like really question it, Uh, then I think that that he's at his best, which gets harder and harder to do because people now know who Hank Patterson is. Um. I talked to a lot of people are like, I saw your first two videos and I had no idea if this was a joke, which I thought, well, then you're an idiot, because they're I mean, they're clearly a joke. But still it's sort of like like rides that line of anything that you can identify with, um and and it hits close to home. Is I think where it's at its best, and that's where satires at its best. It's like when you go, yeah, I'm that guy. I'm I've met a lot of Hank Patterson's on the road. Yeah, that that was the next thing I was going to ask you about. Is as much as it's fun to laugh about how sanctimonious fly fishermen are, right and how prissy they are and and uh like uptight they are and weak they are in a feat they are whatever are they are? They? I don't think so because that's as funny. It's like my experience. That's That's what I'm saying, Like there's all the thing. But then like dudes that I hang out with the they're just guys fishing. It's like people going fishing. So where did it come? Like how it's sort of the thing that it exists. It only it's like it only exists because the parody. Yeah, but Hayk Patterson isn't that Hank Patterson isn't is a blowhard. Yeah he's not like you know, like he's not like super purist. He's just like the blowhard. Yeah yeah, there's nothing yeah periost about him. He's just so it doesn't play on that, you know what I'm saying, Like what happens when something when we have this there's this cultural understanding of a thing and it's it's it exists because of the joke about it. For instance, the eighties. Okay, we goof on the eighties. When people goof on the eighties, they're goofing on, goofing on the eighties, right, not the reality. The narrative like the same thing with the sixties. The narrative of the sixties is now driven by parody. Yeah, everything about the sixties is a reference to the parody we've created about the sixties. The eighties has become like it's like a already of a parody. Yeah, you know, like it's it's you don't recollect what it was like. You recollect what it's like when people goof on it, and that's what you've come to think it was. Like, So who is the like, where are the real asshole fly, fisherman, give me some names. They're out there. I mean there's certainly what do they do because it seems like just like kind of like chill people that like to be outside and fish. Yeah, I think it's it's it's I mean, it's somebody that. What what makes it again really parodiable is how serious we all take it and me included, Right, and you get into these discussions about flies and about you know, different ways to drift, to fly one, how to cast a line in double hall, in this and that, and it's just all the things that in the thought processes and the seriousness that go into just trying to trick a fish into hitting a hook is ridiculous in and of itself. And then there are guys that get really into that and and just can go out and have a good time. And then there are guys that really do want to be better than everybody else and really do take it very seriously. And if people don't do it, you know, the way that they think it should be done, then you know they're they're just assholes in the world. I mean, they're just people in the world, no matter whether they fish or don't fish. So clearly there are people that fly fish that are you know, they take all that seriousness that we all have and they just add their their assholessness to it. But but does it even over index? Meaning like, okay, we look like you just take Americans index check this out? Check out good. If you were gonna go and take you're gonna take a random sampling You're in randomly sample of thousand Americans. Then you're gonna count up. How many assholes you got? Right? Like? Whatever? Okay, so there we have our figures. You take a thousand fly fishermen. No, No, I don't know. I don't think so I don't. I'll say, like, I go around to a lot of fly fishing shows and fish with you know, strangers quite a bit, just because you'll go do shows and so the guys take you out and fishing, and uh, I rarely run into somebody that I'm like, this guy is just a douche. I don't, you know. It's typically like people that are pretty like minded, and and uh, you know, I don't run into a lot of jerks, to be honest with you. I mean they're they're out there clearly, but I just don't. I don't. And maybe it's but to call back a conversation we were having just a couple of hours ago about the fly shop guy. I've been in. That fly shop guy is a trope, like an armchair angler who hangs out in fly shops. Uh no, it's it's it's the kid you generally mid twe these thinks. They're like the most hardcore angler. The only job they can get is working in a fly shop, and they are they're bitter at all the people who come in and no less than them, and need to exert flex their knowledge over everybody who walks in the door who asked them a question, and to continually reinforce their own identity as an expert by diminishing the clients who come in the door. Yeah, and these were just literally walk in the door to be educated, to get some information to spend their money. And and they're demeaning to them, and they talk down to them, and they roll their eyes at them. It's it's the record store guy, you know, it's the Jack Black in high fidelity character that the customers are absolute pain in the acids. They're coming in, You're trying to tie up some flies, you're thinking about what you're gonna be, you know, where you're gonna be fishing later in the afternoon. And now this son of a beach walks through the door way. He wants to buy something and interrupt my day and ask me questions. And he's the guy that as opposed to saying, well, they're hitting on spruce. Moll's is like ship man, I had to figure it out. You figure it out. There's all though there's a lot of those guys that do not want to give out information because I figured it out. I'm like, just on your own, like nobody ever told you anything. Well, I mean I went out with my dad. Well maybe this guy didn't have a dad and he came into your shop, and your answer for him not having a dad, it's just shipped on him. I mean, so you know what I mean. I mean there is that there's that like, well, you know, I had to figure it out. I mean, if you ever asked a guy on on a on a river, it's like that's doing well. It's like, oh man, you're doing good. What are they hitting on? And I mean you get to look like just lost for his pin number? Where are they hitting on? You know? I just I've got your credit card here, can you give me your zip code? I mean it's like, why is that crappy question? It's because he just discovered a lot of people know what they're hitting on and sharing that sort of information. Now, that's another I think people can argue about what what how much information you should share and what people should have to figure out on their own. But yeah, I was listening to an interview with the Linguists one time, and the linguists was talking about tracking trends in language trends and phrasing, and they were just saying that there's a thing that they'd be interested in looking at. I think it would be solvable, as when did waitresses start saying, are you still working on that? There's a point in time you'll go back? And no one said that, Like no one said that to your father when he was a child. This this is like a linguists explained this, like no one said to your father when he was a child, are you still working on that? And then it came from somewhere and spread and it's like a kind of thing that was explained, like a kind of they like to spend their time on. How do these things start. The thing that the fly fishing community like a thing they do that I'll never understand is um, blank river is fishing well today. No other type of angler, Yeah, no other type of angler on the planet would say that the blackfoot is fishing well today. No, Like like no person would say, um no, no bass fisherman, no, no tuna fisherman, no catfish fisherman would ever utter the words blank is fishing well today. The Pacific is fishing Gulf Stream is fishing well. They would not say it. I challenge you to find me someone to say it outside of this very specific context. M hmm. It's best said holding a glass swirling a glass of red wine. My favorite of those types of statements that I don't know but I would guess is also a specific to fly fishing statement is did you catch any fish today? We moved a few fish. Musky anglers will say that. Conventional musky anglers. We had a few chasers. Someone saying how their husbands. So a colleague of mine was saying that her husband is enjoying, her husband to be is enjoying a very good day down in Florida because he jumped to you gotta you gotta take what you can get, which I'm fine with that up to only he held it long long enough for it to jump. But small victories and miles and I are just coming back from Florida where that was all we got. So when people ask how we did well's, well, we didn't catch any, but we were sort of close. Jumped one, yeah, one, I had one just break me off on the first head shake before it could even jump. So at least he has that much to say, yeah, you're you're interested in Um, you're interested in I can't really, that's not really something you should say. I was gonna say, you're interested in conservation, but like, yeah, yeah, are you offering to let me conserve something? Where do you see yourself in five years? Wise, conservation curious? Yeah, you're that's a great way to put your conservations. Let's try this. Let's try this. You're a conservationist, conservation minded, your conservation? What does that mean? I am? Well, I mean, you know, the more that I got into fly fishing, I think one of the biggest surprises to me was that, you know, conservation, you know, began to interest me. And uh, well, you know, I never I guess I would have thought of myself as somebody who cared, but I never would have thought I would have any sort of platform to do anything positive. Uh. You know, as far as conservate, you just go through life quietly, caring, quietly caring and and doing absolutely but rooting for the good old days and rooting for the good and for yet earth. I want you to know, I hope this thing works out for you. I'll be dead before we know. Um yeah, I uh, you know. The hank stuff. So I work a lot with Trout Unlimited, and uh, you know, it dawned on me at one point I know nothing about you know, like science, and uh, you know, I think that to a degree, most people have to take some sort of a leap of faith in in in a group of people or in you know, science. I will admit to you I'm not going to pour over the science. There are certain things that I know, you know, as far as littering and and you know that that I shouldn't do, you know, Um, but you know, I I have made some conservation videos, and uh, I think that with climate change in particular being such a hot button topic, which I don't understand, which actually surprised me. If yeah, that people are like so piste off before the conversation starts, I had no idea that was the case. Chris Wood. I've puzzled over that. That it's it's interesting that it's it's it's one of those things that's interesting to me that it's partisan, because it seems that it would be a scientific discussion. It will be like, um, it seems to be like you you look at a body of evidence and you believe the body like you like you look at like, oh that makes sense, I support this, or I I you know, I arrive at the same conclusion. Or you look at a body of evidence and you'd see a lot of holes in the body of evidence, and you'd be like, well, I don't agree with that. It would be like, it's weird that it falls that it winds up falling that your understanding of it tips on partisan lines and doesn't tip on just the same way if I said you, like if you said, why is the sky blue? And I presented you with a here's my explanation of why it's blue? And you saw it, and you're like, um, you know, I see what you're saying, but that I don't buy that there has been another explanation, because look, what's wrong with your argument those two. It's not like there's like a right wing way of looking at why the sky is blue and a left wing lay of looking at the sky. But whether or not you sort of accept or not accept the scientific communities findings about it, how is it partisan? Yeah, it's a bizarre thing. I mean what I've tried to do is figure out is like, how can I have any sort of an effect? And I realized you can't. I can I change what happens. But the the videos as far as like the arguments that people have in the partisanship of it, uh, that that I've tried to make is um. The video I'm working on right now is is how to talk about talking about climate chan? So it's literally just how do we have a conversation that I'm not going to take either side. I'm not going to be a climate change denier. I'm not going to say climate change is happening. I'm not gonna say it's human cause you're not human. I'm just gonna have a It's a video just specifically based on how can we have a conversation about it without keep using our minds? Well, I've I've long since said that you can't have can you believe this? You can't start a conversation with fuck you? And so it's star there that you have to be willing to listen to each other. And yeah, rule one is at the point that somebody says that we now know the conversation is over, the conversation has has now ended, but that's not gonna that exchange isn't gonna occur. And then a couple of minutes later, someone's gonna go, you know what, man, I really see your point. You're right, well, I you know, I mean, and then the other thing is like trying to figure out how do you communicate, you know, with everyone as opposed to just your group of people, right, And so we're talking about you know that you know, you go on Facebook or whatever, and these arguments occur, and they just start his arguments, they end his arguments that absolutely nothing is solved, and they're typically based on two people that have differing views of will say, climate change and nothing's going to change. They're they're they're differing views, and so it's almost you just sort of I always feel like you're beating your head against the wall if all you're going to do is cheer, lead and speak to your choir. And so I think it's fun to use comedy as a disarming element. And so I'm not coming into it with f you. I'm not coming into it to you know, berrate you. I'm not coming with you know, you know, all the facts and figures in the serious side of it. I mean, you can just let's just let's disarm this thing and let's at least degree that it doesn't have to be a partisan issue. Let's just figure out a way we can actually just have a conversation about it and then and then see where that conversation goes. Um whether or not that helps, I don't, I don't know, but I don't. You know, I'm not one to set out to make, you know, another video, to try to prove something to someone unless I figure out a way to get them to listen to what I'm to my point of view. If they won't us into my point of view, then then what what's the point? I mean, if all I'm getting is people that already agree with my point of view to say you goddamn right. You know, it was like, well that who cares? You haven't moved the needle, And so I always try to go, well, maybe you can move the needle just by figuring out how how do I approach everyone, you know, with with how do you talk about things like climate change or other conservation issues? And and uh, I mean that might seem like sort of a cop out to not take a hard line stand on on one side, and I think that's easier said than done, though extent. And I'll bring up a specific example recently that happened to me where I ran a foul of this without knowing that I would. I published something on our website and I used the term the phrase climate change deniers in that in that in that article, and I got an email from a reader accusing me of using pejorative language by using the phrase climate change deniers in the context that I did. And you know it turned into well, his his argument was just that that had that term had been co opted and used by the media to um to frame people who didn't agree with a particular understanding of climate change. That's a good point I never thought about exactly. And I and you're sort of teeing it up like you're seeing you're saying, like, oh, you know the guy that's wrong exactly. And and you know, he and I had what I thought was a pretty amicable exchange. We had some basic disagreements about and the Virginia climate change. But I had to admit, like I didn't I didn't even think of that term as triggering or as pejorative, and it had it made me sort of rethink, like, wow, I thought I was coming at this from a pretty safe space in terms of opening up a conversation and even this basic language that I thought was was on the table is charged. And so that's why, like in these things, I think it's very very difficult. I like your point of saying, well, I come at it from this comedic space, and I try and open up these open conversations, and I think a lot of us trying to do that and incidentally or accidentally use terms or phrases that turn it into a fight. Because that was certainly not my intention in the way that I put that together. And I would hope that person got more out of the article than that one thing, but they may not have. They may have been so turned off by their response to that phrase that they couldn't hear anything else that I don't want their mind to be changed. So so once once they see any sort of tip that you may be disagreeing with them, they're probably going to shut off. Yeah, And particularly if they feel and rightfully so, if they feel like they are being maligned or their perspective is being treated disrespectfully, then of course they're not gonna listen. And I think that's that's that's the biggest root cause in my mind, is that people tie their identity to their political beliefs or what political or whatever whatever climate changes their beliefs about the world around them. That the way they understand things is very deeply connected to who they see themselves as a person. So if that is to shift, then who they are as a person is no longer the same and no longer is pure. Perhaps. Yeah. The reason I bring this up about your interest and your your let's say, your support for the conservation movement, and you raise some good points um to comedy like like Hank Patterson, Yeah, is not he could probably uh act as though he is. He's not that interested in conservation. He's not like a supporter of the conservation movement up until the point like he would be up until the point where demonstrating his credentials there could be advantageous to him. Yeah, expressing the right sentiment could help him out in the right moment. Yeah. I think I look at it like if if, if this idiot can have a conversation about it, I mean, you should be able to have a conversation about it as well. Um, it is funny. I mean to take a character that that is that and talk about conservation and actually makes some serious like kind of spot on comments for the f three t I did a basically a soapbox speech about conservation and caring and the things that you can do and giving a ship and uh um. And it was right in the middle of the film tour, and it's it was two and a half minutes of just me shouting at a camera without any fishing in it. As I was a little concerned that that wouldn't be very well received at a fly fishing show, to have a guy not fish at all in his two and a half minutes um. But it was really well received and it but it's a little bit of a departure from the idiot side of of Hank Patterson. There are few of things that I've done that I will say that are just it's still that same, like over the top character. But maybe he's not saying something quite as stupid as as as he has in the in the past. But you almost have to break care like to be impactful a little bit. You have to break character because you have to be uh. You're saying to your audience you uh, you know I do. I I like laugh, I goof on us, I laugh at us. Yea um, and you like that you appreciate my sense of humor. So I'm now gonna act like who I am, yeah for real, which is his dude named Travis. And this dude named Travis likes rivers and wants rivers to be cleaning in good places, the whole lots of fish that we can catch. Yeah, now I will jump back into being I jump back into a guy that doesn't really understand any of this. Yeah. Yeah, well, and and I think neither of us understand much. Uh is the truth? I mean it, I guess my thing with the conservation really has been. I mean, I'm not joking when I say I don't. I don't know the science. I don't you know, I have not. I will readily admit, you know, so I don't. I'm not going to get into a science argument or debate with somebody about climate change. I mean there are I mean, as much as we like, there are certain things that I see that I, as a human being can do better. I mean, I can be a better steward. I can, you know, I cannot literally, I mean it is simple things that I can say, you know what, well, I know, But I'm just I'm just talking about conservation in general. Like you know, it's like there are things as far as the plastics problem, and there are things that you you look at now you know. Of course, the minute I say, you know, you should you know, kick plastic and and all that stuff, somebody's going to see a picture of me with a plastic water bottle and that will destroy everything. They will they will look, they will like finding that picture. Oh yeah, and I'm sure there's one out there, but yeah, I don't know. I guess With conservation, it's just been for me. It's been something that that I I believe in the work that organizations like you know, Trout Unlimited UM, and that's bring them up because that's one that I'm closely tied to. UM. I believe in the work that they're doing. And if there's some way that they think that I can help them, I let them sort of lead. I have ideas like that, how to talk about talking about climate change? What is an idea that I had, you know, because we had a conversation about well, what do you think you know? And I said, well, I mean, god, we can't even talk about it. Like I read a thread Chris Wood had mentioned climate change in an article. It's like fourteen paragraphs deep in an argue or in an article that has nothing to do with climate change, and I mean it was a thousand deep on people like ready to I am, I'm not going to be a member of Trout Unlimited anymore if this is the path you're going down and the conspiracy And I'm like, my god, did I read the whole article? I don't remember him talking about climate change at all? And that's all it took. Its sort goes back to your pejorative because a lot of people here that they hear the word climate change and they what they're they're saying to themselves, where is this headed in a regulatory sense? Right? Yeah? So where is this habited in a in a governmental sense? Where is this head in a sense of federal oversight? So they hear the word and they they're not they're not They're not untangling all the portions of the conversation. They're thinking about like where are what are the ways in which this is going to be leveraged? Two? What are the ways this is going to be leveraged to push the agenda of people who are like predisposed to already dislike certain industries, Like that's the that's what's going on? And that's why it's how that's why we don't know how to talk about how to talk about it. No, and I get that. I get it to it too fear thing of where it's going to go. But if if you focus on, well, if it's going to go a direction that maybe has a negative impact on you in some way, but a positive impact on the environment, and then that's a tough that's a tough thing to have to figure out with yourself, I guess. I mean, and I'm not in an industry that that any of this effects, and so I certainly come at it from a much easier place. I mean, my you know, I make videos. You know, I don't. I'm sure there are things that in the making of videos. I I burned the tip of a fly rod in one of my videos, and the Orbits had sent me a brand new like Helios three, and I set it in a fire and I burned about a two inch you know, portion of the tip of that fly rod. And I my god, I had a guy hate me. I was, I mean, oh yeah, oh god, uh, you know, and I mean he went off on me and there was an argument on the orvis you know, Facebook, and he had it posted on his page, and he had posted a big long thing on my thing about the fact that I was out burning certain types of resins and oh my god, I can't believe that you're I mean, this is the equivalent to burning half of the cap that would go on a milk jug and h he lost his mind. Um, And then every argument that he had was like, I mean, I get it. When I'm going up to do a river clean up, I'm gonna be burning fuel. And it couldn't be that when you're going up to drink beer with your friends. It was when you're going up to do a river clean up. And so it's stuff like that that always gives me like, you know, uh, Chris, you know, Chris from to you, it's an interesting things when we talked about the fact that it is both sides. That's the other thing. I mean, it's like, if you are, you know, coming these topics from this holier than now, you know, if you you know, if you're an environmental a confirmation is you know, and you come at it, you know, like at people that don't believe what you believe in a certain way, you're doing a big disservice to what you believe in I was at my brothers and he was I had my kids there and a bunch of other people there. And when he gets I can't remember what his threshold is, but at some threshold of dinner guests, he runs, uh, paper plates because he's just like he's like, at a point, I'm not gonna wash all these damn dishes. So if it's seven paper. But he didn't have paper, he had styre phone plates. And I overheard many people like basically try to take him to task. Yeah, for the styre foam plates. Yeah, he would be like, how did you get here? What was the mode of transportation used to get here? Because this plate wouldn't get you to the end of my driveway. Yeah, but it's funny. But then it brings up this other problem that people have their top of stuff is like the what about is um? Like, like, what about it? I could say, um, I might say whatever. Let's say you're having an argument with your spouse, right, like one one of the members of the marriage says, Oh, they come home, it's a week night, and they say why are they Why are the kids watching TV? Like they're not allowed to watch TV during the week And you go Uh, well, what about when? Right, So you're no longer talking about the thing, right, it's a it's a it's a conversation about purity. Yeah yeah, yeah, who's the better person? It's not like you've lost way track of what the gold is of not having them not watch anything? And so what what about is ms? They're frustrating because they're so true. Yeah, how did you get here? You didn't need to You didn't need to burn gas to come eat dinner at my house to tell me that I shouldn't use these plates? Yeah, why don't you eat at your own house and save on that fossil fuel? Yeah, we're we're not talking about the environment at this point. Now we're talking about a gallon of gas and some plates. But yeah, but it winds up being like it makes everything like what about is are hard because they make everything hard to talk about. But then they also are so stinging lye true. This guy was super mad because he said, I I not only had I burned that, but I'm adding uh to the waste, So this is now going to go to a landfill. He's very upset that to a landfill the tip so which you can't you know, it's burned, so you can't fix it. And so I told him, I said, as stupid as it sounds, we're actually framing the burned tip and and we're giving it away at at one of our shows, I said, And and beyond that, this was a rod that came from the returns department. So this wasn't an Actually they didn't just take it off the show often send me a rod to destroy. I mean they pulled something from the So I said, you know, this is act. It's actually not adding to the landfill. It's yeah, And and then he said, well what about Yes, it's of little consolation to me, is what he said. It's of little consolation to me that that is not going to I said, well, you're two what I said, you're two things where I burned plastic resin and that this is going to a landfill. I just told you one of those isn't even a thing, And it's a little consolation. It's half of your problem with me. Now, your whole problem with me has become this thing instead. Um, but yeah, it's I mean, I don't you know, I mean, this will probably end up solving this whole thing. To this video I'm talking about, Well, most likely solve this, this whole thing. The only thing I'm thinking about while I sit here is God, I gotta do more reason, I gotta read, I gotta do some research because I'm all, you play stuff back in your head about the part ground like I don't know she had about it. I'm just trying to make a video, h And I think, oh, I should probably know something, so anyway, so I would thanks, Thanks for now I've got homework. I'm glad I came at your show. We're going to do concluders and then people as part of your concluder. You can do the last concluder perfect as part of your concluder. Yeah, tell people the best way to go? Uh find you? Yeah? You because no one wants to find you. Find Patterson? Yeah, yeah, trust me. If I if you put on that reader board that you saw in Peekabu, Idaho, Travis Schwartz is gonna be here. Nobody else will show up. Hank Patterson, You've got fifteen people miles. What do you got? Uh? This conversation about conservation and cut ideas about conservation has me thinking about reasons why we do end up caring, and for me, it usually ends up seeing something that bugs me or bums me out, and I'm like, wow, I wish that wasn't that way. So we just got back from Santa Bell Island where we tried to do some fishing, but there weren't any fish to catch because you know, they all died. So just my my concluder is that I think I don't think that. I think that when a conservation, when we're talking about that, we're not talking about like some high minded ideal of of being selfless. We're talking about losing ship that we really really care about and impacts us on a very personal selfish level that we don't want to have to deal with. So I'm thinking about the selfishness aspect of conservation. That's my concluder. That's it. That's cool. Yeah, you gotta check with me if it's all right. I'm just letting you know. I'm putting a point on it. Yeah, chats do you have a day? John? I I I own a small video production company in Bois, Idaho, Patterson Videos that makes Hank Patterson videos and and super sweet corporate video as well. But right, she has you a little bit of serious stuff too. Yeah, yeah, mostly, Yeah, just for a corporate video stuff it pays, well, I don't. Yeah, you know, like a video for a company like you a packard or you know, a training man. I like these computers like yeah, yeah, it's like how do you use this printer? Well? Yeah, you push that button. Uh it's pretty I do get called a lot to try to make you know, really mundane corporate topics funny. And yeah I get that that phone call from time to time. Uh because I tell people, I said, if you want to make less money than a phishing guide, make videos about being a phishing guy. And uh, people are like, oh man, this st Patterson. You just killing it. No, I I Am not just killing Still want to hire you as a fishing guy. Yeah, I picked like the smallest angling sect to decide to make fun of. And but seriously, I think that Henry Patterson is going to be really into golf and so and that's how I'll retire is switching over to golf soon. Bigger audience, do you remember the comedian Tim Conway is that his name? Yeah, he recently passed away to Yeah you know he used to do that yeah, that thing where he put shoes on his knees. Very sensitive. Um, he's funny dude, Tim Conway. Yeah, we used to get quite a chuckle out of that. Yeah, but I don't know if you watch it now, I don't know if it holds up like Blazing Saddles. Yeah, are we surprised that's on Netflix. He might want to pull that down. I'm not sure it's holding up. How long have you been fly fishing? I've been fly fishing probably twenty five years at least, something like that. I'm forty nine years old. Were we doing the other years? I don't know, you know, just drinking and you know stuff. I should have sent me to jail, but somehow I I avoided it. Were an outdoorsman I was. I do a lot of comedy, and uh, I toured theater. I was a Shakespeare actor for seven years. I heard, don't realize that. Yeah, yeah, I spent a lot of time in theater and and uh we did. Miles and me talked about that about why, you know, I think some funny fishing videos work and some don't. And I said, I think that I come at it as a comedian and and not a fly fisherman. I mean, so if I say, doth doth protest? And don't understand what I'm talking about. Yeah, I do that the bar if I say the bar I'm talking about Yeah, oh yeah yeah, who I mean? How good was I as he Shakespearean actor? I'm Hank Patterson. Now do a line, Hank Patterson. The King keepers here tonight, take the Queen coming out within his side for ober On his passing, fell and wrath. That that's a from that that movement Summer Nights Dream another good show. I was. I was not a great Shakespearean nect. I was probably okay at it? Who what kind of guys? Did you play the kings? No? No, no, I was like I was young, so I was. I was playing you know, smaller roles. I did have a role in a play called Spring Awakening one time, and and I was. I was featured in American Theater magazine. So that was my big claim to fame as a theater actor, which is all we read that American Theater is like, that's that's big theater. Yeah you thought fly Fishing was small? Yeah yeah, yeah, American Theater magazine. That's yeah. I'll tell you what. You two are enough children's theater and you you decide not to do theater real fast. I Yeah, it was. Yeah, I did a lot of tours. I'm out. I'm out, baby. What else? He's a generous concluding thoughts because a lot of times people take a concluding thought and they want to turn the spotlight inward. But Yanni that shine his his concluders are a spotlight that shines out upon the world. That's how ny is. It's nice. What do you got, Sam, Well, have a lot of trouble with my personal life. We'll wake at all about you. Well, I'll start out by making it about me. Um. I hope my attempt to play the devil's advocate about about methods of fly fishing h didn't come across as purest in any way. But I just want to I just want to say, get out fishing, doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it's legal, as long as you're having fun, and don't listen to anybody who says anything different. And I think that's the great value of of Hank and Travis here is that he, I think did more than anyone ever has to encourage people to just not take it so damn seriously and go have a good time, make fun of yourself, making fun of your friends and and enjoy the experience and just get out there. I'm I'm gonn hijack this because there's one other thing I want to ask I did a good job. I want to hear a story about about you being mistaken for Hank, about me being mistaken four right, because we we we recognize it as a character, but I'm sure that people come up to you all the time and to the Hank is an actual is not a character? Early? I mean, I don't get it as much, but I certainly like people when people started realizing that I am not Hank Patterson, that it's a character that I play in some videos, some people were very disappointed, you know, to to to learn that, because Travis is certainly nowhere near is entertaining uh as as Hank Patterson. So I've had that experience quite a bit actually, where people are like, wait what and it really blows their mind, which I think is I mean, is it new to you that people play characters and videos? It shouldn't be that big of I think, But but it's a it's a compliment really because I mean it's like, if you really believed this was an actual, you know person, uh, I guess that's a compliment to play it. Amazing acting ability, Shakespearean background coming through really nail. Yeah, yeah, it's very shakespeare. I'd like to make one plug I watched. I was doing some research for this podcast. I was watching YouTube videos and I watched the one about how to make a fly fishing video coming from production myself being a producer. I think you really hit the nail on the head. Yeah on that one. That one had me instead Hank Patterson on making Yes. Yeah, it's like all the things that you need to have in your fly fishing video to make it an award wing and it pretty and it just hits the nail on the head, coming through the water, a shot at somebody times in a fly, you know, and it's But I was worried because that also played at the film tour, and I was worried that the filmmakers would be pissed at me. They needed to like, those shots are in my video. They're in every video we're gonna watch tonight. So yeah, that was a but what else are you gonna show? It's fishing, here's my concluder. Yeah, that's the thing I wanted to talk about earlier. But I like talk about stuff that people write in about, And we were having a conversation about um, sort of the etiquette um when you tell someone your spot, you know, we talked about earlier, right with a guy. This guy wrote in that he says, he writes in arguing that you should never He's talking about like people are saying, when you're going out in the woods, you should tell someone where you are. So if there's an emergency, and people would be like most commonly obviously if you're married, you would tell one spouse, just let her know I'm at such and such trailhead or my tree stand out at Bob's farm. Whatever. Just solved. There's a problem. He says. You should never tell your wife where you are because if you go through a quote brutal divorce, she will then know all of your hunting spots and tell them to her next man. Oh yeah, this is a thing that he found dark. You know, well he's been through this, so just a little would he would never, He says, the one thing you did right was never tell her where he was going. This would have happened in divorce. In divorce, he doesn't need to worry about her betraying his hunting and fishing spots. He signs off with, always be careful who you share your spots with. Unwarranted, unwarranted too much. I if I wasn't looking to wrap her up, I would tell you, guys a story that curl your hair that has a lot to do with what that guy is saying, not the marriage part, but yeah, save it for next time part. Okay, you let you. Uh you know what, Can I make a request? Yeah? Can Hank Patterson give a closing thought, a concluder? Sure? Yeah, he does. He think fast. There's the only thing real slow when he's playing things out. No, no, no, no no, I mean Hank Patterson would say, what what an absolute honor for all of you guys to have me here? And uh, I I had imagine, you know, if you've got somebody like I don't know employed around here that like watches the numbers, that this will probably be uh your biggest episode ever. And so you're welcome for me being here, um my podcast, Hank Patterson's Outdoor Misadventures. Uh, there's not much a larger show, bigger audience, and uh we don't put half the amount of effort and work into it that you guys do. And yet somehow, somehow where that much better. Um so, and I would I would invite any of you to come and be on Hank Patterson's Outdoor Misadventures podcast. Uh if I thought that that you could keep up. But uh, you know, if you keep at this, if you keep plugging away at the treat eater thing or whatever you guys are doing here, keep plugging away, and in a couple of years, when you've got the sort of shops that I have, I'd love to have you guys come and maybe like intern for me or something like that. That'd be fantastic. Uh. Travis would say that I appreciate being here, and uh, my concluder, my my takeaway is that I think it's super cool that you guys talk to me for so long about real recovery and the work that we do. Uh. And I think, uh, I will walk away from this realizing that every time I get in a conversation about conservation, I realized that I'm copying out a little bit by not doing a little bit more research and not educating myself better, and I get myself in the weeds. And so I actually will do a little bit more of that. Um, not until after I make my video about how to have a conversation about it, because I want to go into that freshly knowing absolutely nothing. But no, thanks for having me. People can find me at Hank Patterson dot com or you can find my new podcast, which is an absolute hot mess. Uh Hank Patterson's After our Misadventures and some people like it and some people won't. They can drive from catch them to Bolman. Yeah, watching out the left hand window. Yeah yeah, and you'll see see him. Yeah yeah, I'll be there. I'll be around hitching her hide. All right, Thanks for coming on man. Thanks. One of the reasons I like all you listeners is that when we really lean on you and call for you to do something, you do it. Um. Everybody got behind our cookbook so hardcore that it came out of the gate as a best seller on all kinds of best seller lists. It's done phenomenally. Well, well, I'm here to lean on you again because I would love for you guys to see our new documentary film Stars in the Sky. We've been talking about it on and off for a long time. Now it comes up in this podcast. People are like, hey, man, we happened to the documentary? Well, it's here Now, there's a lot of people in the film that you know from the podcast, Joe Rogan, Robert Abernathy, Doug during buck Bowden, and on and on. It is Stars in the Sky and you will find it at Stars in the Sky film dot com. Available for purchase, streaming, or download again Stars in the Sky film dot com