00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me your podcast coming in you shirtless, severely vote bitten in my case underwear lissen. He can't predict anything. Um, everyone's familiar with the expression six and one half No, six and one right, six and one a half dozen in the other Yanni just has truncated it. He shortened it to where when there's a thing where there's a decision to make and and you know, going left and going right, there's no difference. Uh, He'll say, it's just sixes. But I can't take credit for that. You can't know. I think you invented that. The reason I bring it up is there's we have a full house right now, so I feel like you should do some intros. Oh I canna introduce everybody quickly. That's a good idea. That's a good yeah. I think with the A lot of times when you do the introductions it takes way too long. But as you like to do dealing cards. I'll start off to my left with Mr Johnson, who now is uh it right, shooting editor for both Outdoor Life and Field and Stream a lot of shooting a lot from Balzman. John Edwards, owner of says Balzman as well Mr Stephen Ronella Pete Munich, the sales manager from Stone Glacier. Is that what you do down there? You were a lot of hats, like they got to give you a bigger, get bigger business card. Just hand out full pieces of paper eight and a half resumes and Philip Larson and I don't know your title at Black Gold Archery that well. Right now, I'm doing the design work. But I've been there for fifteen years, so I've also wore quite a few hats over the years. We go visit design. That's all I do. Rattle off what you guys make down there, tight spot, tight spot quivers, you ripcorded air arrests, and then black old bow sites and so if you've seen a black Old product from any of those companies in the last ten years, uh, I have none of that ship on my bow and that weird man. It's awesome. Here you're sitting and here's my You know, I'm gonna take my new rig over though we're gonna go over it. We'll have to change that. You didn't healthy get souped up though, make sure everything was ready to go. Let me accessorized, though many we can do that. I'm gonna make an accessorizing appointment. My father will be so happy. Now he can't stand listening when he doesn't know who's talking. This will be a much better experience. I like it because it builds tension when you can't tell who's talking. Very suspenseful. Did you guys other if you guys caught this? This is good. Where so dudes, a dude in Florida's fishing your clear water and un amer rights activist who is apparently coming from a protest at a fast food restaurant. So he's like, he's him and his boy are leaving a fast food restaurant protest, right, So he's jacked up, and he stumbles across some dude on a pier who's fishing. He's got a telapia. Dude's got a telapia like laid out on the pier and um, which is funny because it's like he's got like a non native, like a deleterious exotic, right, like a non native fish. And this dude, the AMA rights guy freaks out and grabs his fish, grabs the fish and hooks it back in the water. And this is I'm gonna make his shirt that says this because the AMA rights guy throws the tilapia in the water and yells. According to bystanders, he yells called the police, I just saved a fish his life. And the cop comes out and to wrest him and finds him five hundred bucks for showing the dude's thing. It's priority dead too. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't. He wasn't doing keeping wet. If it sounds like yet it laid out its laying on the pier for pier. My buddy NiFe I wrote in with this, this is interesting. We're just doing a little that. If you boys aren't familiar, we just doing a little recap news recap things that mugs right in about people getting all mad about stuff we said that wasn't correct. Um hunters right especially these days, or eyes yacking up um the significance of our contributions to the wildlife restoration program. Pittman robertson fund my buddy ni fi um rights in and he this is some older numbers, but no one ever compiled them before, Like I said, like hunters are I was like, oh, hunters do all this good, you know, through excise taxes charged on firearms and ammunition. The money that goes to wildlife. So I should back up. When you buy archery equipment, you buy firearms, you buy ammunition, a sword, and other things, even boat gas. Right in some marine boat gas, there are excise taxes that you pay, and these exercise taxes go to wildlife restoration programs, so they pay for wildlife. And um it's been you know, these programs have been funding wildlife for eighty years to the tunes of billions of dollars. Uh. The Pittman Robertson fund is the one that comes from ammunition and firearms, and uh of the um money that comes in of firearms sales dollars. So so the more the excise taxes and firearms only can be assigned to hunting purposes, eight are from non hunting shooters. That's a lot of So it should be like the little old ladies who have a pistol for personal protection should be like Pittman Robertson, bro. But it's like hunters are talking up all the time. Only comes from hunters, that's right, and that there's a big tension there between hunters and shooters. Because if you read the Act, you know we talked about um it going to wildlife, but its specifically says in there for also shooting range development. And this has been a burn under the saddle of a lot of shooters over the years who feel like that they're not getting their fair shake in that equation and they've actually got a really really good point. Yeah, they have a good point. Um, I understand it. It's like one of those things, you know, those situations jam where there's like right and wrong and then what you hope. Right, So it's like right and wrong, be like, oh, hey, you look at that, like you look at those numbers. Well, just to follow up on that, so that was firearms ammunition point six hunting purposes, seventy three point four for non hunting purposes. It's a little bit of a slightly different but basically the same thing in terms of like what's right and wrong and then your hopes. It's like, yeah, you look at the right and wrongness. They should have a big seat at the table shooters right around shooting facilities whatnot. Um, but dude, I hate to like like I hate to starve the wildlife funds, right, Yeah, no you don't, you don't want to do that. But I think this is something, this is part of a bigger conversations about where our world is talking, you know, because hunters need shooters for exactly this reason. You know, the shooters are the ones who are carrying the freight to help us pay for these conservation programs. You know. Likewise, I think shooters need hunters in terms of um just the general issue over gun rights and gun access and everything else. I think hunters play a key role in that. But it's it's this dynamic where sometimes these two populations are squaring off against each other, and I think a slightly deeper look shows that there's really a mutually necessary kind of relationship that needs to be foster. But from the shooter standpoint, you know, we as owners. I'm also a shooter, but have to maybe give them a little bit more of a place at the table and give those issues because if people don't have places to shoot, the ankingna hunt either. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think it's a symbiotic relationship for sure, But I think correct me if I'm wrong. The Pittman Robertson Act was originally enacted for the purpose of restoring wildlife. The Wildlife Restoration Act it is. But you read you read the language, it says shooting range development right in it and the original act from Franklin Roosevelt, that original act like from the Roosevelt. Absolutely, because what I was gonna say is it's it's not static. I mean, it could very well be that that we need some new legislation or something to address some of the needs of the shooting community that are not necessarily high. It's it's already, it's already in there. I mean, the you know, the thing is is that and you know you kind of think about it. How many hunters do you know? I'm on the same box of Remington corelocks I've been using for five years. You know, it's like you buy twenty shells and is this is good for ten years? I wanted to check my zero on right on. Thank thanks for pulling on the oars, buddy. We appreciate your support as opposed to the guy who's buying you know, uh you know, uh ammo canca to two three every other week and just you know, hosing down steel at the target. That's the guy who's financially contributing. I knew, Listen, it was a shock to me when I read it this morning. I knew, like I I if you'd have had me lay it out. I probably I wouldn't have laid it out at that. I would have laid it out at like, uh, I wouldn't have gone fifty fifty, but I wouldn't have gone I would have been somewhere in the I've been out. So you're saying, for every dollar I spend as a hunter someone, there's four other dollars being spent by target shooters. For every dollar that, every dollar or years that winds up into the Wildlife Restoration Fund. Shoot well, shooters, shooters, so recreations, shooters, target shooters, defensive handgun that what's the what's the data on the overlap up there? Because here in Montana, I'm looking at at Matt Miller and we, uh, you know, we just joined this awesome new shooting facility in three Forks, Montana. Uh that Glenn dem Ray is running. But there's gonna be a tremendous overlap between shooters and hunters at least, well especially well, I think that they're trying to pull out, like of course there's different people. I think they're kind of pulling out like what the purpose was for? So okay, so ammunition and firearms combined, here's the real Okay, so I was giving me the numbers wire have separated out, but NiFi also sent the numbers for combined combined twenty two point five percent can be assigned to hunting purposes. In the remainder seventy seven point five to non hunting purposes. They were not It was not possible to here. Here's interesting. It was not possible to assess archery sales. Lord knows how they do it. I'll get clared, I'll get some clarification, and I'll and I'll try to explain how the n s s F pulled up these figures. I'm doing something with the NSSF right now around their child safe storage program, which we're gonna be launching pretty soon. Um, we're talking about trail cams and how for a while we're talking about trail cams and my feeling that even though I use them, my feeling that at some point we're gonna wind up needing to have like a reckoning with trail cameras the way the same way we had to have a reckoning with drones. Right It's it's gonna be that, like in the not so distant future, you're gonna have all these live feed trail cameras, and basically the temptation would be just like to hunt off a lot, like you're gonna be out in the woods turkey hunting with and you've got you know, a dozen live feed cameras going and you just kind of scroll through and find out where you ought to walk over and you know, set up. It's not I mean, that's not far off at all. You can basically do it right now. Yeah, that already, that completely exists right now. Yeah. And my thing that like not even at like forgetting me advocating on it. My prediction that state agencies are going to take steps to get out ahead of this um. And a lot of guys wrote in to clarify that. In Nevada on public land, we'll get a bunch of notes about hard to said that word. In Nevada on public land, no trail camps August one to December thirty one, and Montana was doing the same thing and quit doing it, just changed they change it back again. It was legal, then it became illegal, then it became legal. God love no that thinking, Yeah, they're all over the map. I mean it was it was as long as I've been here, not legal to have cameras up during hunting season. I remember when it became ill you were here before I was. You know another thing we're talking about sent blockers. This is when we had Mark Kenyon from Wire to Hunt, who's a frequent guest, sent blocker stuff. Right, do your stuff? You spraying yourself so you don't smell too dear? And okay, this is two things we were talking about. We're talking about scent blockers, and then we were talking about how good dogs can smell, and like what dogs smell and how dogs knows his works. So this is kind of a combo deal. We're Another guy who works in canine units rolled in and he was saying, when all the scent blocker ship came out, all these sprays and all this in the canine world, in the law enforcement canine world, they started to get very concerned about what would be the implications love these products on their ability to pursue suspects, detect drugs. You know what I was watching here and I just quick side note. Have you guys seen Mike Judges Tales from the Tour Bus is the greatest. It's an animated series of all the outlaw country people. We gotta get Pets Part one. Dude, it's it's like by the guy Mike Judge, you did like family guy right, Um, yeah, so they got like it's on Cinema, you can buy it on iTunes. It's it's a Cinemas original, but I've been buying it on iTunes and it's like, so it's Tammy Wynett and George Jones Part one and two, Johnny Paycheck Part one, and it's mostly about just the amount of drugs and gunplay that went on in that world, and then Whalen Jenny's Part one into every episode they're like, is a every episode it's just the crazy ship that those guys are up to. But in it they're talking about one time they're going into Canada and Willie Nelson was so concerned about his tour bus that they stopped and had it steam cleaned and like ultra cleaned to get into Canada. And he said, this guy says, when the drug dog comes down to Willy Nelson's bus, it doesn't like smell around, it just comes and sits down. So it wasn't like where on the bus. It was the bus damn vehicle. So that leads me to the canine thing. So you said they got real concerned about this. Um, and you're saying they mixed results. Okay, so with scent blockers, the dogs always still found the items or persons. When using scent blockers marketed the White tailed deer hunters and the time, but the time was kind of miniscule. He remembers one example with a dog trying to find a person. The dog normally could find the person an eight to ten second time range. He calls this meniscule. It's normally eight to ten second time range. But with scent blockers, it took one dog forty seconds to find the person. Now, if you're bow hunting, dude, that is an eternity EO from ten to forty is that would have for me, meant a shot this year out of a very nice buck a week ago. But he goes to say some dogs showed zero effect, that some dogs time was not affected. Um, here's the other funny part. Once you expose the dog to the scent blocker, there was zero impairment. They learned to deal with it very quickly. Um, they did determine some agencies determine that the product confuses some dogs with their ability to seek out the location. Of the scent, so they know it's there, but locating it becomes different. Now. Scent covers where you're adding other highly potent scents, or you infuse items and natural sense to animals are used to are more effective at disturbing a dog's ability, more effective than scent blockers, but it does not stop the dog from doing their search. He spoke with a guy and al Uh from the province of Alberta and and she she spoke with a woman from the Province of Alberta. And they've been looking at this to all the different dog handlers and all the different agencies, and they determined that scent blockers pose zero risk when their dogs are searching. As new products come out, they always test them on dogs and the dogs knows isn't a deer zels, but it still it's kind of interesting, right, um. I want the woman from Alberta who's a canine trainer. She pointed out that she's also an avid hunter and from her look at it, she thinks that the worst thing you can do is wear a scent blocker because they're so popular in her opinion of deer do in fact become educated with sounds and seeing humans as a threat. She feels that deer are more likely to associate that very powerful smell with humans through exposure, just like how dogs do the blocker or the cover blockers exact to think the blockers supposed to smelling anything. I thought, I thought the sca whatever one. I might have mixed it up somewhere whatever one is where you're doing added odors acting like a pine tree or I've always been suspicious of those things ever since. This was years ago when sentlock was first coming out and they made a big push because I don't think that those guys even believe in their products. Yeah, I can't speak to them. Well, here's what I mean that the outfits that you put on the charcoal, the charcoal off it. So anyway, you know, this was this big thing, new tech, gonna go try this oute. Isn't this fascinating? Dear can't smell you? So anyway, end up they invite me on this hunt down to Texas and it's a classic Texas hunt where I'm in a blind and as some mesquite patch with a shooting lane cutting cut down in a damn feed or a hundred yards away, and I'm sitting there with don't make this a dog we have Listen, can I interrupt turn it into a really nice thing about Texas because we have I've been getting a lot of emails from a lot of Texas where like, you guys have no clue what you're talking about, and you're taking this enormous state and where you got like guys hunting Sam Houston National Forest and knocking it out, and like hunting public land and busting their asses. You got guys out in the West Texas busting their asses. And all we're ever talking about is some dude in Texas in a three acre fenced area with corn. They're like, shut up, Yeah, well you don't know Texas. I will sing the praises of West Texas any day in Texas too. It's great. It's great hunting West Texas and the rest of it, at least in my experience. So anyway, I'm starting. I'm gonna start like moratorium on dogging on Texas because I would like to read it. But it was like a book length piece where a guy broke Texas into a bunch of regions and explain the hunting cultures in each region. And we have been doing a horrible job of pigeonholing, Texas. Okay, so in anyway, and I was in an undisclosed location with a lot of mesquite and a deer feeder, and uh, sitting next to music was like Texas. The Centlock guy who I was with is smoking cigarettes in the blank text to me, and I was just like, yeah, okay, I think I know everything I need to know now about seth. You sure it wasn't rolled alfalfa? It was like an LFLA joint. Pretty, I'm pretty, I'm pretty. I'm pretty sure. So I've no, I've never been uh um. And also I'm just lazy. I don't have time to do all but sent block. What was the clothes with the charcoal in it? That was sent Lock? Sent Lock? Didn't they have a bit of a like an expose? Wasn't it like a kind of like an actual expose about cent long? The thing is is they have There was also dead down range? Remember that that like the breath mints they're supposed to Like, I mean, I'm you know, I'm not saying this stuff is all snake oil because I don't think they actually make it out of snakes. But you know, I don't know. I've just never quite wrapped my head around that, because I've done sent work with dogs before and it's amazing what they can pick up and the idea that we're somehow shielding off all this stink that we throw and the industry is always looking for a silver bullet. And a lot of the guys that I know who are very successful hunters are just hard hunters. You know. It's like, what's the next gadget, what's the next thing, what's the you know, what's gonna make me a better Oh? Now I got this gum I can chew now, you know, or then, or ozonics or anything like that. A lot of the a lot of the old timers used to believe in camp fire smoke as a cover center, now as a cover cent. The thing I've always wondered about is just the confidence factor. So a guy goes out there with the new gizm and all of a sudden, now he's more confident. Does that help help mark? The Mark Kenyan Wired to Hunt approach, which I appreciate is he's like, I don't know, I don't know, um, but let's say I do all of these things which aren't that big of a deal, not that hard for me. To do. I do them all unless, say, one of them gives me ten percent better chance, I'll take it because the things I'm doing I know aren't negative. Or if each one is give me one percent better. And he talked about He's like here, this guy is saying, oh, it's miniscule, ten seconds, forty seconds. Mark's like, maybe it gives me a second, Maybe it buys me a second, but not that big. It's not hard for me to do these things. That didn't. The gal say, maybe the deer get used to it, you know, and all of a sudden now it's working against So yeah, you pass that buck one year and next year he's like, oh no, that's the dude who tried to shoot me. He passed me, not this year. This guy goes on to say, as a side note, his dog, um, the neighbor's dog. Okay, sorry, as a side not, his neighbor's got a Belgian mellow. How do you say that, Yannie, I don't know the Belgian MELANOI. Yeah, it's um. This dog is trained and explodes his location and suspect apprehension. This dog is so damn good that when he started messing around with a single pin slider for his bow and trying to get out to hunter yard mark. He's losing a fair bit of arrows. He's saying, you can take that that sun bitch and dog and take another air audio quiver and run that arrow into that dog's nose and that thing will go find your arrow two or three passes. It's got your arrow. That's impressive, man. One if it's smelling the human out it speaking of dogs, tell Yannie, this is the Yannis. This is let. We've been covering the McLean Yes, tree stand Steeler heavily. This is the last we're gonna say about the tree stand Steeler. But it has a good dogs as I want to roll it in. You guess no, big famous Andrew McLean from I think he's in Park City, is right outside of Salt Lake City. And this guy wrote a book about skiing the Now we're gonna get in trouble again. How did the guy mostly a half dozen people telling you how to pronounce you look like you're cocky about it. Yeah, it's the Wassatche Front. Yeah, so when you need to say it, pause and Pete's say it. Just you wrote a book about skiing the Wasatch Mountains. And I wouldn't call him a famous skier, but almost famous. Anyways, he decides to in his own words, clean up the woods around his house for the bull cutter with a bull cutter and stole a two tree stands in a in a trail camera, but did not realize that the hunter had a second trail camera in the same location, and that's caught Andrew and his wife stealing the stands and packing them out of the woods on public land. Yeah, totally legally placed thing. But the real the reason I keep talking about this really puts the real burn my saddle. It's like there's people in the ski world and stuff who are like applauding, applauding him for this, which is public land. Did it legally? It was? It was some hardware and the public I just I just watched Valley Uprising the other night, and this one guy back in the seventies put a bunch of bolts in Yosemite, and then this other climber that hated him went up the next week and busted every piece of hardware off the wall in an effort to make a statement that he didn't agree with putting this hardware into nature. So this seems very similar. Yeah, one of the tree sound one we're climbing bolts in yrsemit, but I think both legally placed. Yeah, it's like it pisces me off, only because some people are acting like He's like, dude, we even had a guy who like just started home. He's like, I understand because hunters leave a lot of litter in the woods. Come on, we'll go ahead. No, I thought you were gonna finish it. Talked about the dollars. Now, how the oh you wanted me to explain the whole story, just like I supposed to be a slick I know. I thought you were gonna tell us a story. So how he ends up finding Andrew and putting putting the pieces altogether is that they had their dog with them when they were doing this, uh forest robbery. And it was a Burmese mountain dog, Bernies mountain dog. And he figures it's not that many around all sort of cruise the neighborhoods around this trailhead that he most likely used and sees his dog pops up. So he's cruising down the road. Sure enough, there's a dog, a dog and by himself, no leash, no owner. He's like, oh, it is fallow this he's mountain dog. He follows it down the road a little bit, and he goes right up to the front door and opens the door. There's Andrew's wife. He's like, I recognize you met trial camera pictures. Yikes. Um, okay, another area don't want to talk about. We're talking about a guy. Do you Hember what state it was where the guy served the kangaroo meet. A lot of feedback on So dude that runs a hot lunch program in Nebraska. This is a long news segment. Is this the last bit of news? No? Yeah, dude, like he runs a hot lunch program besides to buy some kangaroo meating like cut it in with the beef. Oh god for whatever? Like whyever? He thought it sounds like a good deal. And um, some kids, I believe there's no way this is true. Some kids claim what they found out or they kids claim to have felt sick from the kangaroo meet. Start jumping high, and they the basketball team started kick started crushing. Uh and the dude loses his job and we were talking about this news bit and we're wondering about the kangaroo market and a bunch of Australian guys rolled into in particular, rolled in with a lot of information about um kangaroo, where kangaroo meat comes from. There is no uh, there is no raising. No one raises kangaroos for me. When you see kangaroo met on the menu, it's all wild shot now. So mug one I picked. There's two mugs that rolled in about this, Mug one and mug two. Mug one populations from two thousand eleven UH in Australia for mackerel pods which are red kangaroos, Western gray kangaroos, Eastern gray kangaroos, wallaroos and euros whatever the hell that is UM within the commercial harvest areas, there's over thirty four million of them, which uh. And then in the in the continent at large, fifty million macro pods in Australia Australians. Yeah, he says, greatly outnumbering the human population. Now, mug too is a commercial shooter. Sweet. We know a few kind of pro hunters from Australia. To any of them hunt kangaroos, probably not because it's highly regulated, like the hunting in Australia is for non generally for non natives, right, but this is highly regulated industry and this guy goes here. So here's a commercial shooter. This is the guy that makes his living shooting kangaroos, the kangaroos that wind up in the US for meat. And he goes out and to say for starters, it's not even a popular meat in Australia. However, it's available in regular supermarkets for human consumptions and it is a staple of pet foods. It's very cheap, very healthy, but because it's so lean, are is careful cooking and has never been more than a niche product here in Australia. He says, all the meat in Australia, kangaroo meat is all sourced from wild kangaroos shot by professionals. He says that it is probably give the guy the credit. He's saying, probably the last industrial scale market hunting in the world. They export to many countries, including the US, and he has been able to unable to find anyone raising them domestically for meat over there or here. So wild kangaroo is almost certainly what the kids in Nebraska were eating. He says. The industry here has regulated in all states with strict kill quotas, licensing of shooters, and carcass handling requirements. Here's where it gets interesting. Like all the shooting is done at night with spotlights, and by law, all animals must be killed with a shot to the head from a center fire rifle of at least two to two caliber. Most guys are using a two twenty three. Almost all the shooting is done on private land, acquiring the permission of the landholder. Generally it's farmland where kangaroos are doing crop damage. Most shooters work alone in a single four wheel drive vehicle, using a roof mounted spotlight and a shooting rest mounted on the truck door. You shoot from a seated position. You shoot him, you feel dressing, You hang him in the back of the truck, and then you drop drop off at a chilled processing plant at the end of the night. He normally takes around thirty per night, each weighing fifty to one pounds. He says, interestingly, almost all kangaroos shot commercially are males, and the major processors will only accept male carcasses. It's not legal, it's just done for pr reasons because the females are almost always pregnant. Almost always have a baby in the pouch. The shooter is legally required to he mainly kill the joey. When he does shoot a female, he goes into details about how they get this done, which I'll not share. I'll share it over last I don't drink or so I'll share it over a glass water. But it doesn't look good for the industry. He has not found any evidence of changes to population dynamics due to the sex sex specific harvest. How would it not. You're only killing males if you're not shooting females normal, there's still fifty million of them um. Out of that population, fifty million they're harvesting right now, about five to seven million annually. He also says he goes down to say this. In addition to the commercial harvests, kangaroos can be shot privately to mitigate agricultural damage by landowners and recreational shooters with landowner permissions. Laws very state to state, with some states requiring a landowner to apply for tags and they allow the use of the carcass. However, in my home state it is open season. There's there's no season, no baggling, no weapons restrictions, which sounds amazing, but unfortunately it is ill legal to keep the carcasses or to use any of the meat, even for personal consumption, meaning you can shoot him, can't eat them, which I don't even get. He says. As a result of this, and from our extremely restrictive firearm laws, we have no culture of recreational kangaroo hunting. He also goes on and stay this about Australia, He says, we should be seen as a cautionary tale for the rest of the world, In particularly the USA, we have a vast amount of wilderness w A where he is is larger than Alaska and Texas combined, huge areas of undeveloped public land, but no legal recreational hunting allowed on any of it. Even on private land, hunting is extremely restricted, limited to a few feral species, and our restrictions on firearm access make this even inaccessible to most people. Um, that's what he's got to say about all that sad story. Now mug number two and this thing with talking about some loosening of restrictions where now a land arm with a problem can designate shooters and he's going out this weekend and you can designate shooters and they lose some restrictions on using the meat, and he's going out this weekend. They're hoping to put ten in the freezer. He says. This is great news for those of us living in New South Wales. Um. He says he likes to uh, the tails can be used as you would oxtail. They like the backstraps and the tender loins, and they like to mince the hind legs and cutting some beef fat for burgers at cetera. Anyone got anything to say about that. That's a deep dive right there. Boys on kangaroo hunting. I'll be not returning to that subject anytime soon. What is he comparable to? Stringy ass meat? Like like stringy antelope meat. I guess I remember like you when I got I had some kangaroo back. I had some kangaroo like little t bones. What's the call where you got like a rib? What do they call that? Beef cutting up? Chop? Yeah, chop cut the whole thing and they get that part of the little hand. Yeah. Well, we used to have a bones. We used to have a band's on. We'd cut deer an analytope that way, like little chops. Um, it was like eating that, but you needed to go flosh your teeth and you got done. I had no idea. There are so many different types of kangaroos, don't either nam. We get a lot of We had a lot of emails from guys in Australia because it's not like a robust there's a lot of hunters, but it's not a sort of a culture and information, you know, it's not like like a conversation around hunting as much as what a lot of them point out. So they're kind of like they like we hear from Australians who like that would be there's this thing that that that's accessible to them where people are talking about all this stuff, right, get a lot of notes from them. So you're saying there's parts of Australia where they can shoot them but they can't touch them. I'd always heard that. He says they're losing those restrictions up and it's part of broader stuff because the same thing is like in Australia you have all these non natives, right, and and there's some guys that do some amount of hunting. There's a lot of people like we would love to go do some honey. Can you loosen the restrictions. And the girl was like, no, we'd rather pay people to shoot him out of helicopters and leave him to rot rather than let you redneck hicks go out and and shoot him. We'd rather like cripple them up from a helicopter and let him die a slow death. And you know, and then, like I said, they got these really draconian gun laws there which make it like extremely difficult. So but there's like a I think there's a growing population of bow hunters just to get around the you know, just the weapons deal. Um everybody good on app opens a whole can of worms about gun rights. That's what he says about the cautionary tale. Speaking of cautionary tales, Yani, can I hit one more? Sure? We're only half an hour in. This isn't even news one. A couple of questions came in. Guy was and like, you know, hunters will like you shoot a buck right, and you get talking about, oh, you know, the North American model of wildlife conservation and fueling and feeding my family and all the great stuff we do for wildlife. This guy says, Okay, I know all this, how great it is that you all hunt and how great it is that the animals are there and they're giving their lives for you, and how happy the animals should be about all this whole system you guys have created. He says, a picture that we're in a Cormack McCarthy has post modern dystopia. Cannibals out looking for sustenance to survive, right, just like you. And you're shooting your bucks and these cannibals come up and they kill you and your family and eat you. Uh, do you feel real honored about having continued the lives of your fellow humans? Jeez, that's a good question. I would be bombed. I don't think it's be bummed. Do we ever say that, Um, the animals somehow is feeling honored itself? No, but I was talking to an animal rights philosopher. Um, he's in the documentary will be available soon. But the animal rights philosopher is like, you get like hunters, like talk all this talk about this honorific right, this honorific relationship with the animals, And the animal doesn't care about your motivations. You're causing it pain and killing it. It's just all in your own head to make you feel better about something. That's awful. And don't act like you're doing something with or for this creature. You're just hurting it and killing it and that's all it knows. But the animal probably does prefer the advanced or improved habitat that it calls home thanks to hundred dollars, or it does good job, that's slick, you can. Yeah, there's I mean, there's other things besides just getting shot in the chest. I mean, you've lived your whole life in this in this fantastic habitat that maybe was mildly influenced by man, and maybe you appreciate most of that. And yeah, at the end of the day, you got shot in Nate by farmer John. But well, sometimes you don't know what's coming. I mean it's rough out there for for critters, you know, I mean at night, they got to try to stay alive. Yeah, I mean, what's the alternative, you know, be eaten alive by a prey, by a predator, a coyote, eat your hind quarter off. I was gonna I was gonna leave it to you. Gu's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah, the the ratio, like the percentages of violent death are extraordinary. Look, there's no death. There's no death in the natural world that's a pleasant death for these animals. It's exposure, it's starvation, it's disease, it's getting torn asunder by a predator, you know, in a sense, you know, on that scale, what a hunter does is the most merciful of all of them. But the problem I have with that philosopher's question is that he's talking about the individual and really, when we look at this, we're not dealing with an individual animal. We're dealing with the ecosystem, you know, and are you know, the saving grace of what hunters are doing is we're preserving and maintaining an ecosystem and and within that, yeah, we're killing individual animals, but they're not discrete individuals the way people are. So I don't think that the analogy holds up with that. I think I think their philosophy is that it's anthropomorphism, right. They believe that an individual animal sort of has some sort of feelings. Yeah, that that's the thing I always try to focus on top about when I come up with questions like that, which are totally fair questions, but I always point out like like hunters tend to be like like like hunters who are involved in the conservation movement tend to be focused on like dearness, sort of like the entire package of like the dear population in general, right, and not so focused on an individual. I was having like a little Instagram battle today, brief Instagram battle day with the animal rights guy who has pissed at Yanni for having killed a bull, and I was pointing out and I was pointing out to him that in the early DS this state had five thousand elk. Today this state has hundred fifty thousand elk. That's hunters did that. So if you want to have a who does more for a wildlife contests, as far as I can tell, this guy some kind of sound mixer or something, he's like the Internet troll slash sound mixer. Like, if you want to have a who does most for wildlife tournament between you and the eagle, the Eagle's gonna smoke you. I was telling him, Um, you know, I am a little fascinated by this Cormick McCarthy kind of world though, where it's regulated cannibal listen, you know, I mean, are they getting licenses? Do they have to work? You want to see a good segue then I got only one more thing, um uh no, two more things. Sorry, good song recommendation. We did a show recommendation which is Tales from the Tour Bus. There's a song right now I've been listening to a fair bit by a band called The Quiet Hollers. It's called mont Blanc and it's I like it because it's it's McCarthy esk. It's a dude who you gather is living in a post apocalyptic situation. Okay, when you listen to it, you keep hearing him say shet, I shed a tear for the books I should have read. And I thought, without paying attention, I thought was like a guy who is bummed out that he didn't pay more attention in school. But he's a dude living in a post apocalyptic scenario trying to keep his family alive. Once you listen closely to the lyrics, and what he's saying is when he says, I shed a tear for the books I could should have read, he's wishing he had been studying up on the kind of ship we tend to talk about here on this digital radio program. That's what he's lamented. But now here he is in his situation he doesn't know how to function and operate. Um, it's not an upbeat tune. And the often and he goes and then the bomb, but you can't tell what he's saying. I had to go look it up online. He's talking about his life, you know, and he's like, you should have been paying more attention. But he was snuggled with his old lady and he's like, and then the bomb, and then he gets into like what life's like after the bomb and how he sheds a tear for the books he should have read. Okay, guy wrote in to ask this, he needs to UM, I don't want to ask him any questions here. He he wants to shoot a deer, but when he does it, he needs it to fall down immediately and not jump a fence. He's gonna be shooting from twenty yards. He owns a remington. He's thinking that that's the way he's gonna do this, and he goes. I have heard to use slug high shoulder and also number nine pellets. Any assistance greatly appreciated. Yikes, I've got some thoughts. Yeah, I have to give the thoughts. I'm gonna start by saying, usually when you're in a situation where you're like, right where you need to tee it up preemptively avoid. Yeah, where you're kind of like, I'm in a dicey situation. But let's just never mind. I trust that you've got this all sorted out and you know what you got yourself into. Then I'll let the ill. Let the experts speak on that one Bert quail shot or a slug Well, definitely not in the quail shot, and I've personally never used it, but I haven't heard a lot of people have great success, probably especially at close range like that with buckshot to the head, but not number nine bird shot, which is illegal anyway. I know what state he's in, and it's illegal in your state. Well, so different states have different laws about your critter jumping a fence and crossing the line and whether you can or cannot retrieve that animal what that looks like. Montana has their own unique definition of that law, but depending on what state he's in, could depend could decide what weapons should be using. Well, at twenty yards, if he goes with buckshot, he'd be very safe. There's that federal um. It's an lie load that has a type of wadding in it that helps keep that together. Even with a regular buckshot at twenty yard, the pattern is going to be tighter than your fist, and so you're going you're going head or chest with that. I would, I would go neck, I go right yeah, with with that buckshot absolutely, absolutely, the problem that the head. You know, the head shot works great, but the vitals are so small, and if you mess up, you have just done the most horrific thing doing it, then your neighbor is gonna be a real treat. Oh. I mean, then you've got zombie deer with no lower jar. I mean it's just well, no, I'm saying, if it's between we were talking about buckshot buckshot, you find it slug and be fine too. Trust me, you're not gonna want to get hippie by either one. But but bucks out at that range will be tighter than your fist. How about bird shot, No, it's just too small. I don't want to give his state away, but in his state bird shots illegal. I can't imagine bird shot being legal anyway anywhere. So, John, if you had to pick one though twenty yards, is there gonna be neck, buckshot or high shoulder? I would, I would, I would go I would go neck buckshot that there's not moving. I'd like to think he needs the fall real fast because he doesn't want to drag it far, rather than that he's in some kind of weird neighborly situation that changes everything. My take, my take, and and this is just me not really even know what I'm talking about. I would feel if I hadn't just consulted with with John Snow, I would feel that the slug high shoulder because then you're shooting at a pie plate. Yeah, we're talking about just anchoring at the base, the base of the neck. I'm not talking center neck. I'm talking base neck, which is kind of that high shoulder area too. But I think I could be wrong on this, But like, there are guys like in Minneapolis who are doing the deer control there and I think they're using slugs, but they're doing that high neckstra because they don't want anything to run around h and uh, you know, because they're doing them in parks like where people are walking through at night and stuff. So we have a body that does that for a living, and they do head neck with the two M damn. They shoot for airports, they shoot for municipalities facing away he said, right, that was that was that he likes it to be facing the other direction. It gives you a lot more target area usable target area that way. And he thought about the kind of shooting where you're looking at a couple of people watching TV in the in the in the window of the front window of a house and you're shooting deer in their yard like that kind of like very tightly controlled or like high what what's what am I trying to say? Surgical? I have a slightly mccomb's story about this where this was in Minneapolis where a friend of mine got invited on one of these calls and he didn't in the moment, he forgot about the shot placement and he put it through the rib cage like normal style. And so this was a snowy park god, and actually it connected to a cemetery in the deer of course, shot through both sides, hosen everywhere ys seventy yards on on tombstones, on the whole thing, he said. He said, they spent hours trying to clean this up and sanitize. This is my last one. That yeah, and you got a bunch, right, yeah, Okay, I want to hit one more because that's what I kind of understand. The guy wrote in and he's saying, we've talked about back steelers, we talked about chamber seilers. You guys are clear what we're talking about. You know what chamber seiler is, Uh, is that where it goes into like the tub and you close the door on the top of Yeah, I have one. So I have like a western um vaccinither this non chamber, right, and you that's that's where everybody has. Right. You open thing up, lay the bag over the lip, the bags laying out on the counter. Zapp it a chamber seiler. Um. It goes into a vacuum chamber. And I knows you don't need the bag. You don't. The bags are cheaper because there you don't need a bag that allows the one way flow. You don't need a vented bag, right, because when you're pulling, if you picture a normal seiler when it's expunging air, right, it can it can pass through like a like a like a like a one way pass through the vented bag on a chamber ceiler of the whole chambers back. So you just use a regular heavy duty bag and the bags are cheaper. Um. He goes on to say, I would like some input and clarification on what's the best. Then he says that here's what initiated his problem. He thought some rabbits. He had some rabbit stock. I like this guy immensely. He had some rabbit stock in his deep freeze in half gallon jars. He over filled him and noticed today that three of the jars cracked in the freezer. I that's a legit problem, man, like, because i'll freeze stock, I'll pressure steal it where I can just go into your counter or into your cupboard or pantry, but also sometimes freeze stock. And yeah, man, you can't fill the jar all the way up. You gotta leave a lot of headspace on that thing when you freeze it. So that's one thing. When he goes on to top about chamber ceiling liquids, I don't see any reason. I'm not a physicist. I don't see any reason why you would ever need to vacuum seal liquid because a liquid isn't like compressible, right, Yeah, like what in liquids don't freezer burn when you vacuum seal an elk steak, Though the goal is not to compress the elk steak it's to take all the air away around the oak steak, right, So that would be the same goal with the liquord. Just get all let's get the guy the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he's trying to figure out a way to more efficiently stack stuff in his freezer, like you know, I'll sometimes do that with like different kinds of sauces. But you can't vact seal chamber s either or not when you put into like I have a I have a big Western chamber seiler at my fish shack, and that thing kicks ass all day long. Um, But you can't lay a bag of liquid down in there because when you pull the vacuum on it, all that liquid. Even if you're doing a piece of fish with a small amount of liquid, the liquid gets pulled out and you gotta roll up a piece of paper towel and like lay it down in there to keep the liquid from pulling out and ruining the seal. If you put a bag of stock in a vacuum steeler, all it's gonna have you have an empty bag and you're gonna have a vacuum steeler that holds stock gons and it's simper to tause ziplock freezer bag filled with the liquid and just kind of squeeze the air out as you seal it. Well, the real answer, and my that's great, is not use glass too freezing plastic and if you're a plastic, fold freezing glass, but don't overfill. But then he goes down to this other question where he was one of about chambers versus regular I wish I knew like the opposite a chamber non chamber and chamber. He's saying, do chamber steelers do better on cuts with potential sharp bones such as shanks? Um? Now that question there is interesting question because when you're doing if you use shitty vacuum sealed bags and your vac ceiling salmon, and you don't pull the pin bones first, you can get your your bag can be perforated from the pinbones. Or if you're making if you like pre caught your asabuco where you pre caught your shanks and you've got little burs on the bone, and then you go to vac seal with shitty bags, the shitty bags are more likely to get perforated by the corner of the bone um, which that leads to problems. So for that because chamber seitos. You can use a heavier gauge bag. You can buy that really heavy gauge bags. I would go and say, sure, but don't buy bad bags. Usered. That though is remember what they did down at um Quality Meats. I forget the name of Divine Meat Company Yea and Divine Meat Company Clayton Saunders. They had a chamber seiler that we did all of our hog in and they just had little pieces of sort of like robust plastic. Remember that they would basically put on the tips of the ribs and the sharp peg man was it like was it made for that? I don't know. So they would essentially pre wrap the part that could poke through the bag with heavier duty, just slip it in there and kind of set it right on the sharp edge. It would keep it from pope. Yeah, totally forgot about that. You're right, they would on their bone and cuts. They would pad it up. But he was chamber ceiling too, with some nice heavy duty bags, potentially heavy duty bags. It sounds like all of you guys is discussion about vacuum ceiling all comes down to the bag. It's like a good bag, just good, the best bag you can, because if you don't, you're just gonna run to me. I used to have so many more problems with him, but I have a lot less problems now, um and out, but also things that handle them differently. When your bags get broken. I used to being there, like stern ship up in my freezer, you know, looking for something. And he goes on to have one more question. Um, he's saying, on a chamber seiler, do you still have to let it cool like during heavy youth? Yep, you still gotta let it cool off now? And then um, I have that. Uh. The main one I run is that west Pro, which is like a beast, And yeah, you can burn it. You can burn it out too hot. If you're just going on and going on and going on it you gotta just let it chill out now and then you just I just use I just put my hand out and I can tell it's too hot. He's the food saver vacuum seiler, and it just it cuts you off. It turns itself off. That's a real machine there. Oh yeah, some critters through that one. It just turns itself off. It does when it gets hot. Oh yeah, it's probably smart self. Oh yeh what do you got? I got a bunch of more on the same along the same lines. Um, I think it a name with this one, but he didn't put in the names. Tell their names they want. But Pete from Bosman might be excited when we say Pete from Bozeman asked, right, I got some questions for boys. Um, he's saying he's noticing that in a lot of the recipes, the pictures, in the books, uh, in the in the meat in the videos, he's saying that the meat always appears to be real fresh. Well, that's because we don't actually kill any of that stuff. We're just go and buy it at the grocery store. No, I'm I'm kidding there. But he was saying that. He's saying for like, um, he ran into the problem with Asabuco that he went and ages me and then he wanted to use his shank, but it had like a rind on it, and the pictures and the videos he saw us doing Asabuco, the shank didn't have this like hard rind on it. So he's saying, like, how do I get around around that? Should I trim the rind? Should I not age it? Do I treat different cuts differently. I'd say it depends on how heavy. Dude, you're asking me, anybody all of you, why is he why is he aging it to begin with? I mean, if you're making osabuco out of shank, well, yeah, I'm guessing he just didn't know. No, Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too, is that it's gonna be slow and low anyways, and so you don't you don't need to need to be aged. But his ageing the whole damn deer. Yeah, because you're not gonna like age some and not age rest. The age is the whole damn deer. And this is for quartered out, so you don't have the protection of the hide. Yeah. I think unless you like wrap it in plastic, the ryand is completely unavoidable. Yeah. So what would you do with the ryan then? If you're gonna askabuco, I think you gotta carve it off. What if you just cook it so it's still gonna I don't know. I guess I've never cooked one with the rind on it a shank. I mean, I I would tend to not let that age too long. I like age and the rest of it, But you try picking that stuff off the shanks. It's just a by the time you get it all off way. Uh you want to know a hot tip not related to this, dude, you ever knows what you hang. If you're aging a deer, you hang up a deer that the tenderlins are so small on a deer that if you like age it for a week, they get dried out where they're like damn, they're kind of gone, like it's all rind our body. Steve Kendrott takes a piece of plastic wrap and when he's hanging the deer, he just paste a piece of plastic wrap over the tenderloins and then they don't Then they don't get the problem that this boy is talking about. Uh my take in terms of the shanks, you're cooking. The sun's a bitches so long that you're turning tendons into gelatin. I don't think in the end chance, but in a rind the sense. Yeah, like when you've aged something good, like you pull the backstrap off on a thing where it's been aged. Uh yeah, I'm cutting that stuff away. But on that preparation, it had to be a pretty healthy, like a big thig moldy rind I would cut off. But like any normal rind that I have encountered in my life, I feel like it's gonna succumb. I feel like it's gonna succumb to the to the cooking, to right the because I can't think of ever because there you're dealing with such a small thing. Anyway, Like the more you start fiddle farting around trim and stuff off, you kind of are getting rid of the whole point. Like the beauty of the thing is you wind up with a bone that could go and do a museum. You know, you're getting it, like every last usable scrap off that thing, and that's kind of like what makes that dish cool. So I would have a hard time trimming parts of it off because then you're kind of like you're the gate and the main point. So our answer is if you're gonna hang it for a while, it takes some span wrap and wrap your shanks, or cut the shanks off and get them in the freezer immediately and do a Steve Kendrott on the tender loins, sorry John, or just ignored it. You're saying, just ignore it, Just cook it with the rind. Any normal rind, I'll thick. I wish I knew how to describe stuff in mills. Okay, if you had a rind, I would say most rhinds are about as stick as if you cut a, for instance, a paper coffee cup, if you went down to the local coffee shop and got a coffee cup. A normal ryan is about like that paper. Yeah, I think that's on the light end. The actual rhynd, yeah, I would agree with that. There's like a purplely transition into the meat after that. But the actual rhynd that you have to carve away it is probably about the size of and I've seen some leathery ass rhymes. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, like your average deer skin. That's how much you're gonna end up carving off, you know. So it just depends, man, if you you know what, I don't know. It's hard for me to picture trimming that thing off. That's the last word I got to say about it. I'm with you, all right. Uh, here's another one. Everyone's gonna have a tip for this guy patting, So keep it to one because I know everybody's got one for this. He hunts by himself off and he's often not going into areas and not going deep because in our tree season, he's worried he's gonna kill something and not you only get the meat out before it spoils like this guy. So what tips tricks do you guys have to get the meat out faster or keep it cool longer? And as a general rule, how much time do you feel you have before the meat starts to spoil? M a lot of variables able to read it? Read it again? What tips tricks do you guys have to try to get the meat out faster or keep it cool longer? And there's a general rule how much time do you feel you have before the meat starts to spoil? Or we got a limit to like a simple trick. We're gonna assume he's hunting elk, yeah, because he's worried about getting it all out because yeah, if it was a deer, he'd packing shot. So it's something bigger than a single trip maybe, or who knows a lot of people are gonna want to carry a hold deer. Okay, you killed big white tail buck hunter eighty pounds, you're gonna strip it down, but you know a lot of people aren't gonna do that. No, that's a heavy load. Some old dude retired. I don't think he can. We can really answer the general rule on how much time do you think you have? Well, I okay, because there's just too many variables. But we can say at fifty degrees and sure, I'll give you a number. I'll say this longer than you think, if the proper steps are taken longer. It's amazing how durable that stuff is if the proper steps are taken. That's amazing. The temperature difference between a sun filled meadow and early September and a dark, shady patch of timber with a creek flowing through it. Is that gonna be your tip for patting? Well, I'm just I'm just getting into this, but yeah, no, you only you only get one tip or tree. Okay. My tip is work, work quick, and get that ship in the timber north face and slow. Yeah, hang it up, good airflow. It just worked quick because yeah, I've killed elk on hot September days before, and it is stick your hands inside that animal and it's a hundred plus degrees and you pull your hands out and it's nine plus degrees outside. The clock is ticking, and so yeah, we're just working quick. Think about taking a nap, cold ass day and you're trying to take a nap down the timber, you gotta go up into a sunny medal. Or conversely, you're trying to take a nap up in a sunny meadow and you can't no wait, and then you go down. You gotta adda layer to take a nap down below. Big differ. That's by moving fifty yards Nature's refrigerator. Phil I would say, definitely get the hide off, and if you're super worried about it, uh, get the bones out. You know, you get more air flow circulation in into the big cuts of meat, like let's say it's an elk, you know, taking that hind quarter and getting it to where that bone is out of there, and also taking the hide off that mountain goat I killed last year. We left the last hind quarter in the hide. I did, huh full body mountain. I was like, oh, it's in the hide. I'm just gonna leave it in the hide and pack the rest to this out. And we got out and that hind quarter was still warm from being insulated from that hide from that fur. So hide off if you're really worried about it. Bone out Steve ano. Um, that was my tip that you I'm answering the part of this thing, like how long can you how long can you put it off? You can put it off a long time if you get the body heat out and you keep it in the shade, up in the breeze, not wrapped up in garbage bags. Um longer than you think, to the point where you're kind of surprised. We were days. Yeah, the thing that I was returning to man, we we we we were hunting doll sheep once in Alaska, and it was no joke. There were so many fires. There was still fire season. There's so many fires going on that it was obstructing our glassing like that kind of weather and unseasonably hot in the eighties every day, and we kept We killed two sheep the first one we killed. I think we had we carried it around us for seven days by being very judicious about how we were taking care of it, what we were doing with that night. We'd even chisel a hole down in a glacier and get a good chill on it like that. But it's moving it along and always trying to decide what best to do, hanging it by the creek, keeping it in the shade during the daytime, getting it out at night, letting it cool, and it was I kind of came away with that with like a real appreciation for if you're properly, if you're properly equipped and paying attention, that you can do some pretty miraculous stuff without having meat spoil. And I've also had experiences, particularly I first got involved in Western hunting, I had some experiences where I was shocked at how badly, how quickly something could go south, how just stunning lee fast you could spoil something by not I didn't ride around the back of your pick up, not deal with the body heat well, even in the body, even in the field, especially with elk, you know, I I see it all the time in rifle season. It's a cold day, there's snow on the ground, and guys will wait, you know, to field dress their their their elk, and and that that elk meat goes goes bad so fast it's unbelievable. If you even in the snow, if you don't get the neck opened up and get the esophagus out, get it get a breathing, you know that you'll you'll lose meat even when it's cold. He said things Laner six hundred pounds. It's like to get down to the core of it's what eighteen inches deep. It's a heat factory, you know, and that thing's hundred three degrees internal body temperature or whatever. Here's a question for you, Steve. Have you ever put meat in the creek? You know what? Can take a quarter and put it in the crip. I had a question from a guy like that. And on that same trip I'm talking about, we had some contractor bags and we were putting meat, putting sheet meat in contractor bags and putting it down in a creek to cool it off underwater. The problem is dry bags, contractor bags, all this stuff is like pretty waterproof, but you submerge, you put it underwater. I don't know how it happens. The seams, I don't know what it is. Even like a brand spikty new contractor bag. Somehow you open it up, like, I don't know how it happened. There's a quart of water landing about that damn bag. So what's the danger there? It just gets nothing. Really, it's unsightly and it turns all white and weird looking. But You know what, when I was hunting in Hawaii. I was with some Hawaiians in Hawaii. The first thing they do is put there. The first thing to do is bone out. We got we're hunting access to here. Bone the thing out and throwing the ice water. But if you just took it, looks like a drowned rat there man hide on and just dunked at him. Correct, I would do it, certainly protect one side. Yeah, I would do that before I let it rot. We're not talking about like g rdia, like laying eggs into your elchem It's not happening. It's just the discoloration in a way it looks once it's wet in. The Hawaiians are like they put it in the water to do what I'm talking about. As they put in the water to draw all the blood out. They pulled that meat out. It's like ivory. But dude, it was good man. Then they steamed underground that he likes a chill and ice water. I shot a black bear in the bear tooths a couple of years ago, and it took me two and a half days to get it out. In two nights in a row, we put all the bear meat in several trash bags and then into a creek there go, And so that was our refrigerator. The second morning, as I pulled the bags out of the creek, a pot of otters came past our camp, our creekside camp that I'm sure smelled this meat miles and miles down. Yeah. They came off the still water and came up into this tributary way way up into the bear tooths. I saw a pot of otters, and I'm sure my bear meat had baited him up there, and it wasn't. It wasn't five minutes until that morning pulled it out and then ten squeaky otters slipped past camp. They definitely would have ripped that bag up all, no doubt, John, Are there any sets of tricks left? Well? I think the the point about getting the meat off the bone, if you're really concerned, that's a big one. And getting airflow under any kind of airflow. You know, we did this on a moose hunt earlier this year. It was a d i y drop camp and it was hot and um, you know, we were and it was just kind of rainy and warm the whole time, and so we were pretty concerned about the meat but we uh got enough airflow on it and would flip them around every now and then, and we were out there for over a week and a half and even though it smelled kind of ripe and we actually got it back and started trimming up, it was great. So that is one of the things to your points. Do you think it's amazing how long if you do care for it it'll last. But you know, it seems like it's increasingly an issue in some ways. You know. I was in Elk camp in September this year, always in public plan and was fortunate to have been able to ride into camp. But more and more, especially you know, like young athletic hunters, which is obviously great for the whole sport, but are sort of going solo, going in deep, you know, and and particularly bow hunting elk. You know, you really have to think through what's your plan? What? What? What is your is your plan? Because? Uh, the the one word answer I was going to give to to the Pete from Bozeman, right, uh would be uh buddies, yes, uh, because uh, you know, you can get a signal on top of a lot of ridges. You can have a plan even if you want to hunt alone. I get that I like to hunt alone too, but you know, to be able to say I need some help get in here. That doesn't mean my tip since you already had one, I'm gonna just add on to that one. But yeah, when I was talking about yesterday, I was hunting with my neighbor and we got lucky killed when we're packing one out and we're going through the same scenario. But living in Colorado, I had probably almost a dozen people on the list that it was just on the bolletin board year round. But like my wife knew, I would probably call her first and then like, hey, run the list and get up here as fast as you can. Most of those people weren't hunters. Most of them were just people that like enjoyed the outdoors, were stoked to get you know, a few steaks, steaks and burgers exactly. They're like sweet, so stoked to go for a hike today, didn't have anything to do on a Sunday. You know, so often it would be it's hard to talk your hunting buddies into coming to help you. It's usually easier to talk to guy. It's like I can get some milk met coming, and then you don't have to be shown another hunter your spot. Yeah, it doesn't leave a lot to the imagination when you gotta take him right to the exact spotty. Yeah, so here he is exactly where he was standing. I have a friend in Bozeman who, uh they raise horses, and they're raising pack horses, and he tells me every year he's like, you know, the more experienced these horses have getting him out, you know, let me know. So I take my dolor um with me and he's just ready to go. At all times. He does hunt too, but like he knows, he's just like he'll be at work. He hit him with the dolarm, He's just like, I gotta go. He goes and gets his horse and will you know, head up to the trail. So if you know or can get a hold of somebody that would do that kind of thing, because I know some like way back before it became super popular, Cameron Haynes in his book would write about he had a guy on call he paid to pack his bulls out of the back country and like you were saying, it's getting to the point where guys, are you know, so gun hoe to go the furthest go you know, solo that they don't even think about it, and then they get a bowl on the ground. It's like, now what am I gonna do? Yeah? Now it's it's a big, big, big deal. I I love my horse and my mule almost to it like an indecent level. But I'm not a great horseman by any means. You know, there's a lot of really great horse people around, and uh, there's just a question in my mind whether, uh you should call a licensed outfitter for that job. You know, I get the friend and buddy thing with horses and stuff. But in my mind, I'm wondering if there might be some rules and regulations about it. You know, Uh, there's a lot there's there's lots of great licensed outfitters in the state. Who would that cost if? I mean, and I don't think it's real expensive, you know, real expensive relative to the service you're getting. You know, what did I do in Washington? What did he what did you ever talk about prices with it? He does? He does that in the fall for a living nice It's like an uber driver for what do you think bucks to pack? I don't milk five miles. I think you could probably get an outfit or it's just sort of a wrangler to me, you know, somebody's really kind of just coming to help pack meet gonna be him in another horse. It depends, you know how if it's fifteen miles or five miles or what, but not to fifty there you go say, have an extra wildest guess. But and I've seen even in like diners and in Colorado elsewhere, like and you'll see a guy like with a sign up where you know where you got the guys that caught the buckskin on the end of a piece of paper, cut the fringe, you tear the tab off, dudes advertising that service. That's a good thing to look in. You man, just have like a let's have like an ace in the hole before you go hunting. Gangs that with a question. This guy is from the UK, does not hunt. Wants to know this could a major league pitcher with a wicked bassball, if taught to stalk a white tailed deer, be able to kill the deer with a rock that could fit in his hand. And if he had a tag, would his methods for filling the tag be legal? That's a two part answer, yes and no, Yes and no. I think my answer is yes and no, Yeah, you probably killing. No, it's probably not legal, not legal method to take. Method of take is interesting. Um uh, the level of specificity they get into a method of take, particularly if you get into something like waterfowl where it's like shot size, composition of shot, So it's like how the diameter of the shot, what the shot is made of, the borer of the shotgun being prohibitions on too small, prohibitions on too large, how many shells the firearm can hold, the gauge of the firearm. You know, I was getting with the poor size, like excruciating level of detail around method to take. And in some places like Alaska waterfalls federal, but some places like they're they leave a lot, there's a lot of like open. They don't get into a lot of method to take. Discussions of other states get into what would be like the draft again and that like coyote killing and Montana, like I don't know what would be there's no method to take there, don't it's non game Okay, yeah, um yehney, I got a couple of good ones here. This one would be a little bit shorter at least answer I think. Um this fella is saying, well, it's Jordan's, so it could be a gal. Let's say it's a goal. Okay, she's saying she's shot enough big game animals are a rifle, that she knows what it looks like when she gets a good hit by the animal's reaction and behavior, and that uh so she's she can kind of tell, like if it's a good hit and whether she has to shoot again or not. But even though it's a good hit and it's starting to get wobbly, it still, you know, it's taking seconds to you know, lay or fall down, so it's a little bit longer. But she feels like she's in a ethical quandary, wondering should she just shoot again and get it over with or she just let it go on its own. And the reason it's a it's a quantity for her, it's because she feels like a second shot might do more deep meat damage and she wants to get as much good meat out of it as possible. I question question. I like it. There's a reason guns hold more than one bullet, because I've seen it, you know, any number of times guys I think that they've knocked an animal down, even even when it falls, even gals that have shot a hundred critters like Jordan's. Yes, yeah, no, I would. I always put another round or two into the animals. You do. Yeah, if it's standing, I'm shooting. If if I've made contact, if I've wounded that animal, and now it is my responsibility to finish the job. I know. But but she's saying that like this is after a good shot, like you just like it could be a seventy five yards and you saw the bullet go right through both longs. We're talking seconds, probably just long enough to get off another shot or not. I'm with Pete. I'm shooting, keep shooting, put another one through the roobs, John, I think it depends on the animal. That's what I'm saying. Okay, that's what I'm saying. We're talking brown bear, we're talking white till those two different categories. I shot a brown bear in Alaska recently, and I'll leave some of the names out to protect the innocent. But it was a charge situation and we emptied our guns, but it was it was kind of a life or death deal. Yeah that's yeah, that's its own thing. Yeah, that's that's way different than you we gonnaut I heard about that Yeah, yeah, it was kind of hairy. But then you know elk, deer, antelope, you know planes, game, you know, smaller stuff save the meat pete. Yeah, I'm into it. I like I like breaking big animals down there. I mean, elk elk are tough. Just because you think you have a fatal hit on him doesn't mean you do. I don't know. Yeah, I would say, yeah, it depends on the animal. A moose, absolutely, keep shooting on a moose. Absolutely on some stuff like white tail or caribou. I would be like reading a lot into what I saw happen, sure what I thought was happening. Now it's interesting because Jordans really and maybe I just didn't do a good enough joy to explain this, but you guys have all answered and sort of just like waste meat or not meat. She also is wondering about, like the animals misery in those three or four I'm talking about we're talking about fractions of not fractions, we're talking about seconds. I think of someone. I think that any one of us, if they knew, if if it was minutes, shoot again. By that point, there's no question anymore, like at probably ten seconds, there's no question if you go long enough to think about it. In my opinion, you probably should have another one going down. Here we're talking about something that we're talking about, a decision that that you're you know you're we're talking about decisions playing out over a handful of seconds. Dead on his feet, dead to rights, he's still dancing around, but he is going to die. Doesn't sound like there's much of a reason to shoot again. Yeah, if you get a hit on something runs three or four steps, you can see the shot place. It's like out clear. You can see the shot placement. You can tell from body language, you know it's gonna be down within literally seconds. It's just not I just feel like it's you're not doing it a favor by shooting it again special. If it's already kind of like it's dead wall, it's it's like dead walls wall too. I feel like if if I took up a thirty cow through both lungs, I'm probably not feeling much else at that point. The world has gone fuzzy and gray, you know, immediately right, and the reverses is so true, you know it's it's what's worse than losing an animal that's been hit so sort of went in doubt, you know what I mean when in doubt, and that's kind of where I am. I mean, yeah, I mean, if you know that the animals dead, honest feet, Okay, I don't need to shoot again, but you know, it's it's the ones, especially those kind of marginal like near the spine hits where they drop and everybody's starting to, you know, get excited and unload their gun and all that. Then all of a sudden, the animal pops up and is off like a shot. Now you've got a mess on your hands. Yeah, that's why I'm always thinking about putting another one into it if I can. You bow hunters might already know this. I'd be really curious to hear some opinions. But I learned from a buddy of mine, Jason Morrison, uh recently that you know, on on elk, you kill or you you shoot a bowl with it with an arrow, knock another arrow and shoot again. And and maybe that's habit for for you guys, but nothing to lose. I think for a lot of guys it's not. And uh, you know, if you're if you're able to get a second arrow in a in an elk, it helps a lot one up. Man, you know there's nothing to lose. Okay, ready with this one? Please? Is it okay to hunt squirrel in public land during deer hunting season? I know it's legal, but is it right? I know if I were going to hunt for ten days for deer and a squirrel hunter came through, I'd be pissed. What's the etiquette on this topic? We've covered this before. I don't think you're under any obligation whatsoever to determine who has a um, who has the rights to be in the woods. I just don't sucks for the deer hunter, yes it does, but it sucks for you more to stay home. I think you could do a good turn. You pull up to a little parking area on a little game management area and there's like a couple of trucks there. It's getting towards dusk, you know, if possible going on our direction, But if it came to be in that you feel like you need to sit home for them from October one November for fear of running into a bowl hunter. No, No, it's your woods too, man. Yeah, public land owner. Yeah, it's just like it's like, I'm sorry, I think you could do like, yeah, if it's like courteous, if you're there, if you see the guy sitting in a tree stand, don't go stomp and under it. Maybe, you know, try to sneak around or something, But no reason you shouldn't be in the woods at that point. If you know there's a bowl hunt or the left, you could just easily go right. That's just courtesy. I killed a mountain goat right next to some ice climbers one time. How do they feel about that? Uh, we didn't really actually have a conversation, but the sheet of ice crap. They were able to talk afterwards. They weren't responded after I think that was like a share. That was an interesting combination ice climbers and mountain goat hunters. Oh yeah, I'm with you. You know, if it's yeah, if it's prime time, don't go in there, but go hunt in the middle of the day. But yeah, if it's going to keep you at home, I'd go into the woods and go squirrel hunting or hiking for that matter, or rabbit hunting or maybe I don't know whatever it might be in the woods during right, you know, deer season. I just hate the idea that a small game hunter would feel like a second class citizen in the hunting community. We need more small game hunter, squirrel huntings school, rabbit hunting school. You know, that's as legit as anything else we do. So I'm with I'm with you, get out there. But I do think the bowl hunters think that they have I think that they that their activities with trump others. Right, that's a can of worms. But yeah, I mean there is that add because they're more they're they're so invested in they got so much time invested in it, right, And it's like comes down to these like precise moments, and you've got like a ton of effort, working your ass off, practicing hanging stands. It's like, you know, waiting for the perfect moment, and then it gets blown by some dude who, from all appearances seems to be like kind of willy nilly, low commitment, low barrier to entry, wandering through the woods, shooting off twenty two shells and bullshit with his body. Right, It's like it can feel that way, but and yeend I think it's it's just not your place, man. It's like someone has just the same right you have. You gotta do your best to respect all the stakeholders at the table. Like if you're fly fisherman and some some guy comes floating down the river in an inner tube drinking a Coors Light. He's having a good time too, but you may be trying to stick a big brown trout in a spot that he happened to float right over. Yeah, you know, this is kind of a tangent though to what you're talking about. A couple of the guys, one of my buddies in particular, he's a great hunter. You know, we hunt public a lot, and we'll encounter other guys, and one of the things I admire about him is that he doesn't let the presence of other hunters deter him at all when he sees him. That's the eagle. The eagles like that. Yeah, you know, and I think that. So I think that when people feel that, like that drop that disheartening sense of oh my god, somebody just tromped through my space or I encountered a guy in my honey hole, it's impossible not to a little bit, but you gotta. But I think a good hunter just as like, all right, I'm gonna well, It's like when I go bear hunting in the spring, there's always dudes around, and you know, you can get real down on it, or you can just be like that guy's got no game. He ain't going to see the bears that I'm gonna see. And I've been on a vantage where I come back from a stock or something and there's a bunch of guys just looking around, Willy Nillion. They didn't see any of the bears there. Just like, must a change, man, because when I was back, when I was living here previously, no one, no one. There's a lot more bear hunters now. Man. It's a popular thing to do. Yeah, it used to be something fun to do in the spring that nobody did. No one. I know so many bear hunters. Hmm, it's kind of ridiculous. Care what you talk about? They got spring fever, care for what you talk about? Just on that topic about there's sort of karma to the are in public land thing too. We were in public land hunting and uh two years ago in September and had a nice hunt on a good bull, didn't quite happen. Excited to go back the next day. Alarm goes off at four thirty and uh, you know, making coffee, getting boots on and here come to public hunters. So you know, right right through camp saying we watched your elk hunt yesterday. You mind if I go try to get that bullet and uh yeah, it's you know it's your it's your lamb too, man, go go for it. You want You wanna hear a good segment. I never heard of that before. You know, you're saying that your alarm went off. Here's a good segue. Check us out. A guy rolled in about his body. We're talking about what makes turkey shot gobble, all the sounds that will make turkey shot gob he said. One day his body pulls out to a turkey hunting spot and he got there a little early, and he's, um, I think you'll take a quick nap, but falls real to sleep and wakes up and it's already legal light, and he's in. He's so flustered and frantic get to get out that he likes, messes up his keys and what he's doing, and sets his own car alarm off, and his car alarm is going crazy, and a gobbler just sixty yards from his truck starts just hammering on the thing, gets the alarm off, goes down the trail twenty yards and calls that gobbler and to get them. It's awesome. Ah, what else you add that to the list? Huh? It was already on the list. Oh, of things that make Gobler's gobble the best one I've heard lately about because we got I have a long list golling of noises that make Turkey's gowl and the best one I've heard in a long time. As the guy was saying the morning bells at a monastery when he taunts turkeys near a monastery and in the morning, go do dong, and the golers started hammering. You can do the same thing with bulls bugling. In late September, we had a guy say he doesn't He didn't want me to say this because he doesn't want to blow it. He said, don't tell anybody this. He hunts in Idaho and he brings his older bugle out and to spring to shot gobble Turkey. He's the holy ship. Does it work good? Huh? Oh, yeah, knows about that. Oh nice, I blow a rabbit distress calling that works up with gobble. That's funny. I've clapped real hard before and gotten to shot gobble at it. My brother whistle a big rip and whistle too. My brother goes hey. Speaking of hunting on public land, This fella found himself a sweet spot over hunting over two scrapes. He was all pumped up, got his tree stand in there, got in early, and right at first light, he catches his movement out of the corner of his eye. No, it's not a big old buck coming down the trail. It's another hunter, old dude who has a stand that he didn't see about seventy five yards away from him. He whistles, he gets his attention. The dude waves back and contin So he's not really worried about like the ethics, so like what you should do, But he's worried about like that. What's the associated hunting danger or danger that surrounds that. Hunting so close to another hunter that you don't know, You don't know what he's gonna do. None knows you're there, knows you're human being sitting seventy yards away. Well, unless he's just an idiot, right, it's more dangerous than being about yourself. Maybe, unless if you if you fall out of your stand, at least he's there to see if they haven't give your hand no dangers re lining, I say no dangers, I fall out of my stand. I got a buddy here to help me. And you say if he was rightful at bow hunting, it didn't say, well, no, I did both both season. Both season. I'm a lot more worried about the guy who doesn't see me. Yeah, that's very true, for sure. Man. Yeah it's annoying, but I just wouldn't like when I'm out assessing danger. Right, you're out, You're always a set. You should be always be out assessing danger. And a guy comes up and we acknowledge each other's presence and he decides to hunt seventy five yards away from me. I'm not being like, oh, this is getting dangerous. I'm like, this is getting extremely annoying. Not dangerous, but extremely annoying. Have we talked about the story we heard from Maryland on the show. Yes, we talked about that. I think we did on the Maryland Show. Are you sure? I'm pretty sure, dude. I wish I knew for absolute positive, because the best story I've ever heard, the best hunting story I've ever heard. They won't mind, So buddy of bars down in Maryland is I don't know marsh and a heavy hunted area, and they're hunting these little islands of trees out in the swamp. Okay, out in the marsh. He gets up bright and squirreling, gets out in his thing way before light and gets set up in his little island. And these islands of timber can can be pretty small, you know, it's like ten trees or whatever. Make this a little island of timber. He gets set up and sure enough towards towards like later, toward light, here's the headlamp commed. He's like, I don't know. The headland keeps common and common and common and come until it gets to his island of trees, and he's like spotty. It says, hey, I'm hunting here, you know. And the guys like, well, I already got my stand over, so they don't really clarify what he's gonna do, but he acknowledges that he needs to go and do something with his stand So the guy comes right behind him. How many yards was eighteen? Yeah, something like you range finding him. He's in a tree eighteen yards away. It might mean less than that because because you're hear the rest of the story. So the guy starts pulling a chain. He's got it chained with like a heavy chain where he's like, as he's pulling the chain across the steel tree stand, he's like, oh my god, let's get it over with, you know. And he thinks he's unchaining the stand to move away. But after a minute, sure enough, it's like the unmistakable sound of bark. He's like, he's like, climbs up. I think it was thirteen yards. The guy finally gets position and he swings around his range finder and range finding the guy. I think it was thirteen yards away. As you'll you'll see in a minute how just how close they were. So he's looking out his side of the island and the guy's thirteen yards away looking out his side islands during muzzle over season. So eventually gets light out and sure enough, bouch out of this guy's tree. So our buddy like peers around to see what's going on, and there's a buck out in the march, clearly unscathed, and the guy is frantically trying to load his muzzleloader right for a second shot. So our buddy swings around in his stand, but the buck is also circling around. Make it sound like he's like now going to poach it. He's like not hit right, But the guy is like frantically trying to reload his muzzloaders. So our buddy swings around and shoots the buck perfect and the guy they're so close to guy whispers, you got him, our buddy. Our buddy climbs down and goes to retrieve the bucket. He can't find it, and the guy who's sitting in the other tree stand has to direct him. He's like to the right, so worked out to Yeah, so he Verry says he got his deer very quietly vacated the area. The best part of the best part of the story is the whisper got him? What else this it's probably a good one to finish up on. Um, we're gonna be about that time everybody needs to go home for dinner. But uh, this guy William asks, with all the hunts you're doing, bad weather, how does someone layer clothing on a budget? And sat way you layered on enough? Yeah, but I think you can think of like a cheap way to get warm and how do you keep your feet warm? Now, everybody's got a tip or trick for this guy. But think brevity, Phil you want to go first, there's no other way for you. I'm going long and deep. Or do you want to pass it? How to how to layer on a budget? Could get a job working for one of the camel companies. That would probably help um. Well. Here in Bozeman, if you go to the good will, you'll find a lot of stuff that skiers drop off they come for a week of skin. My wife has all sorts of really nice like Patagonia pants and stuff from local good wills. You'd be surprised with people actually donate any town, any town. Yeah. I used to get tons of hunting close from the Goodwill in the town of nine thousand people. It's called it's called St. Vincent same thing, Yeah, I mean, don't overlook that kind of thing. You know what you can find there. You know it might not be the latest and the greatest, but you know, if you're looking for bass layers, you know you don't have to be spending an arm in a leg to get them. Also, I don't super believe in camels, so a lot of stuff I wear hunting. You know, it doesn't matter what color it is. So if it's like you go over and it's on a sales rack and it's at Bob Ward's. It's like, pick that up. Especially rifle hunting. You don't need to wear camera rifle hunting nor hunting in my opinion, but that's just me. So yeah, look look on the sales racks, look at the good whales. Well, I don't think there's much of a substitute for high quality gear. But um, certainly before I had nice stuff, say, you know, like a three d dollar down jacket, which is an incredible piece of installation. Um, I think like in my college days, I was wearing a lot of like LLL being fleeces and stuff like that, like layering cheaper garments that uh maybe more fleece like than high end treated down um, and utilizing that kind of stuff and always stayed warm. The same with gloves like my my best cold weather gloves or fourteen bucks at Murdocks their leather mittens and buy a pair to a year and then the most warm because I run the I call them Kerma the frog gloves. But those military surplus wool gloves every year, just anytime I can get ahold of them. And I grabbed some of those because you can put them underneath other gloves. They're cheap. You can get them online for ten bucks. As far as keeping your feet warm, um, maybe having boots a half a size bigger than normal, a little a little bit of air around your toes, all the difference, it's gonna be hard to beat. I get still sick of this man. People be like, I wish you had enough money to go hunting. It's like, come on, I hunted and lived like comfortably for a long time as a magazine writer, far below federal federal poverty level. It's like nothing. I was doing the first doll sheep hunt I went on. I swear to god, I had a boot, a pair of boots I bought at Circle Square pawn shop full on Army surplus rain where I had a wool shirt that I had coming into somewhere, and took a pair of another pair of pickles, a pair of pants and cut out material to so on big pockets onto my shirt with a needle and dental faust. We go on the woods rags man. On that trip, my brother was wearing underwear he found in a shopping cart in the alley behind his house. I'm not joking, because he were like he later had to cut him up to make bandages, and that guy us talking about where he got in the first place, and he found him in a shopping cart. It's like, come on, it's having great stuff is really nice because it frees your mind up to do other stuff. It's it's it is. It's more comfortable, it's more pleasurable, it's better. But if it comes down to if it no joke comes down to you staying home or or like going or not going. And you're going or not going based on whether you have like good technical apparel, you're never gonna be anything. You're never gonna be anything, and you're never gonna be happy. It's just like, listen, it's true. If it's like I can't go because I don't have the come on, come on. I was in my thirties four I had a rifle that wasn't hand me down rifle. It's like, give me a break. I'm left handed. I shot right handed, rifle still is. In my thirties, I got a left hand rifle. I couldn't figure how to use it. It's just like if that, if that's like really keeping you out of the woods. But that's not even answering this question. It's like, go down find every used store, every goodwill, Salvation, Army, st. Vincent in your town, and every month drop in there and see what they got laying around and just make it your summer project. You'll outfit yourself. Right. It might not be the best up, it's functional, it might be awesome stuff. My wife's hunting pants are from a good will that she found. It was just you know, in a ski town, people drop it off because they'll never use it again. You know, when she's got a high end pair of pants that probably retail for two bucks that she got for twenty bucks. Yeah, I would, in all fairness. All the time I was doing that, dude, I was totally lusting after, like really bomber great apparel. But I'm talking about difference between going and not going. And you can go and be comfortable, and you can be wishing and dreaming about getting some sweeter stuff, but you just got at a point you just gotta decide you're just gonna go um and then figure the rest out. Keeping your toes warm, Uh yeah, I have a little bit bigger. If you got some old pawnshop boots, put some snow seal on them. Used toe warmers like those little what do you call them warmers? Handwarmers for your toes. Those things are great. Then go you go out and you know, go after hunting season down your local sporting good story and usually giving those things away because they don't last forever. Good one. The other thing about about your feet is it's it's moisture management is such a huge deal, you know, and uh, if everything's working properly and you're in a situation where you're hiking and ascending, you're you're perspiring, your whole body's perspiring. And and something I tell a lot of guys is, you know, layering it's great, but you got to actually layer. You know, when when you're about to ascend it could be very very cold, use your layers, you know, put take your coat off and put it in your pack and the hardest thing stripped down, you know, and you're only gonna be chilly just for a second, and then you're gonna be hot and and sweating. Well, all that sweat goes to your feet, and so managing moisture, managing perspiration inside your goes to your feet. You're saying that like dripping down your legs. You know, I'm being figurative a little bit. But your feet are sweating too, you know, and and so, uh you know, I had a I had a situation one time where a guy said, hey, I just got these boots in there there giving me trouble. I can't stay warm. And I gotta started talking to him. And he worked as a security guy in a mountain town. And uh, you said, yeah, you know, I put I get dressed. And I said, well, wait, hang on a second, how far is your drive to work? So I asked about an hour, you know, fourth pennutes. I'm like, dude, I'll hot your car smoking. You know, it's twenty below zero outside, it's seventy five degrees in your car, and by the time you get there, your feet are sweating. Yeah. I have a friend of cat hunts who does he who won't blow hot air on his feet, and he won't put his boots on until he gets there, and he keeps his boots in the back so his feet don't get oversweated before he gets out and actually goes hiking or even sweat on cold boots on purpose. Yes, not necessarily, because you know, he's just trying to keep his feet dry. The whole time, or you know, packing an extra pair of socks, and when you do get sweatered up, take the time to take him off, get your feet aired out, put on fresh socks. You put on a fresh pair of dry socks and your feet feel like a million dollars. It's like you just treated yourself to a day at the spot. It's unbelievable. Pair of socks in your pack is a great tip. It going last man because you guys keep stealing. I got I got more, Toad got more of dead. We're running mountain lions with a guy. Um, And it was no joke. It was third team below zero. He had uninsulated leather boots. He says, I, he goes, I got sweaty feet. I do better all day. I do better to keep my feet warm with uninsulated boots because the minute I started doing anything, they sweat up. I do that same thing. And when we're out working, it's a real thing, Um, when you got it, when you start out in the morning, it's a real thing with like having the discipline and having everybody get on board, to have the discipline to strip down before you hike, because people want to start and in in five minutes and someone's got like five minutes later, someone else is gonna shed later. And I don't have the best discipline, Like I screwed this up too, But like if you're smart, you're stripped down and you're waiting for everybody put their package. You're doing push ups because you're like, I just gotta keep warm until we get going. That's the person that winds up winning. But it requires so much discipline. I still, all these years later, I still am always getting to the top something. He'll sweat my ass off because I was too lazy. I was too lazy to do what I know I should have done. And then you're up there, and then you want to talk about cold. Then you're kind of cold. It's hard to recover from trying to get soaking wet, windy, sitting still cold. It's different than the chili getting ready to walk cold. That's a that's a killer cold, and you try to manage it, but you know how it is. Sometimes you're just you're in a hurry. You're fighting. You know, you want to get there before the sun comes up, and so you're jamming and you're just, yeah, some of these fights you're not gonna win. These are just things you have to learn to deal with. Yeah, there's sometimes you're just gonna be a sweaty mess. When I was a little kid, my dad pounded it. He was him was scent control. But like walking so slow out your tree stand and put carrying your clothes with you and always staying cold, stay in chili, you know, and then putting your clothes on because he's always worried about that perspiration and deer smelling you. I want to talk about full circle and then we started talking about that a long time ago. Yeah, I think a lot of guys are afraid to be cold. It's okay to be cold a little bit. I mean, there is that, like you said, after you've done the hike and you're in the wind and stuff and that kind of full body tremor type stuff that sucks. But just general cold, you're feep being a little cold, your hands being a little cold, there's nothing wrong with it. Makes being warm a lot cooler. Fee is no fun. We're gonna find out how good Yanni is because if he can still come up with some original material, see how good he is. You guys couldn't see that, but I just cracked my knuckles. Is that what that's called a thing where you're like getting ready to read what I would have done about you into my palms like in the old days when someone's gonna use like a sledge hammer. Yeah, spitting your palms like you're getting ready to work. Yeah, it's not totally original, but I think I work off of the perspiration thing. And another thing that actually that same cat hunter that you were speaking of, Bruce was doing and he was a real stickler on was and we were day hunting. But the pets dryers or however you can do it. But those boot they hold some moisture from your from your feet that sweat dry them out every night. Get that moisture completely out. That'll keep your feet warmer. That's the best you can do. Get a pizza dryer. What No, it's saying, when you're using your boots day in and day out, start them off dry, get that moisture out from the day before. Hit me with another one, Come on, um, another one I've heard of. I can't say I've ever done. He's going into hear, but I believe it. I believe it works because it works around the whole having air inside your boot and having that zone events of air insulation is having some sort of an insult. And then I've heard that people will actually take like, uh, you know the style foam that your ground meat comes in. We'll cut that out in the shape of an insult and put it underneath their insult to give another layer of air between them and the ground. The stuff of the state comes up. Yeah you heard of that, John, Yeah, that's not bad like that. Yeah I did like that. Yeah. I can't say I've tried it, but I started throwing in a little gonna start throwing in a little meat packing materials. You're a little kid, your mom would we go? I got it, I got it. Okay, I'm just gonna keep working down right through the sole of the boot. And so if you're standing around and you're getting cold feet, and this is a mountaineering trick, you take your butt pad and lay it down and stand on it and start the cold ground of the cold snow. That'sh walking circles. I'm serious. If I'm stationary in a glassing spot or whatever and you're freezing cold and your feet and your feet turned into ice cubes, I'll just walk and walk and walking a little circle, high step. I always wondered what you were doing. Yeah, I thought was lost. Got that game running off that hill again. I'll give you another one. When you're sitting there and you're not and you're on that glass and tip you know you're not gonna go hiking off for a little while, Loosen your boots up, don't keep them crazy, leave some room in there. I'll give you another one if you really have a cold feet problem. They make over boots. M hmm yep. And um, we we met a dude. What's that store in Anchorage Wiggy's. We met a dude was saying like he had some over boots. You need a separate backpack. Came around. You're saying like you like, actually cannot get cold with those over boots and mushers, you know, mushers use them guys. You know interesting cat. Oh you know about the whole deal. He is an interesting dude. You know when you're a little kid and your mom would um put those bread bags, like line your boot with a bread bag to keep waterproof and let's good way to get cold plastic bag. Oh yeah, man, like like the like the wonder bread sack. I remember, like my mom like whenever we had moon boots. My mom's sticking at bread bag down in there. I can't remember why. It's about being cold once in a while, it's bad. I remember learning how to duck up when I was a kid, you know, probably eight years old or something. Freezing, just miserable, you know, and how did you what? What? What was the lesson? Get down and shut up? Yeah, I'm I'm so worried about you. Keep warm. I am about you keep quiet exactly? Are we good? N yeah, I mean we can keep going. But we've been at it almost two hours. I'm good. We can do some closing thoughts. Oh, there you go. Anybody has any there you go, Phil Man, closer, John. I was prepared for you guys to corner us with the hot tips thing, because that's listen, don't worry. We're doing a hot tip off, and like as soon as we wrap this up, we're gonna do We're gonna do too hot tip off. We're doing a double hot tip off. Very good, got like six so I'm ready to go. Oh nice, you're gonna take all my how to keep your food feet warm? Yeah? Yeah, if you want to. If you're interested in hot tipoffs, what hot tip This is my concluding thought, Johnnie, if you're interesting with a hot tip off? Is a hot tip off is like a bake off, except it's when you give hot tips. And if you go to the meat eat or TV, what's what's the exact handle? I don't want to mess it up. Meat Oh, Instagram at meter eat at meat or meat Eater or TV on Instagram, and there we post hot tip offs where you get a room full of people or two people and they have a hot tip off contest who's got the hottest hunting fish and tip. Very popular hot tipoffs. That's my concluder double Concluder. Concluder is by the Meat Eater, Fish and Game cookbook, recipes and techniques for every hunter and angler by it now. It is released and out and ready for you. Concluder man. And I hope everybody has a great Thanksgiving. I'm really excited for Thanksgivings. I don't have to spend it alone hunting because this is gonna air polish Thanksgiving. So you should say, I hope you had a one. I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving and still are very full from here. Bountiful meal you had with your family. Uh, that's about it. Happy holiday season. You can't wait for the Christmas music? Are you sure? Oh? I love it. I like that that tune. I like that drummer boy tune. Which what's your favorite? You know I'm I'm a big sucker for Frank Sinatra. Come on, really, Oh my god, he's like bathe that man what I'm like so little Italian. I don't even like him anymore. My dad liked him cause he's just enough Italian to like. Oh, just like he over sells all that. It's like, come on, I'm a d. C. Burman from the Silver jews Man. He said, all my favorite singers couldn't sing. That's why I'm a petty man. Petty anyone that can't sing. I like just the grunge, just just getting it out. Just let me just get it out. So now you didn't write you that stuff. He was an interpreter. Come on, Merry Christmas everyone. I try to think of a good Sonata tune. Oh there's too many. Well, thanks for having me on starts spreading the news. I didn't know I could sing that good start spreading the news. Oh no, hold new career, Phil, you were saying. I was gonna say thanks for having me on. I appreciate it was fun to do. And yeah, when your new bow shows up, hit me up and I'll trick it out, check it out, and maybe working, don't you form? Your form is good? You were talking about you know, yeah, your shot sequence? How you you know, get in your head. I got a lot of work I need to do. Man, we can get you in your head. So you just made a lot of mistakes. And cool old killer with that boner. And I made a lot of mistakes this year. I got a lot of work I need to do. We'll get you, We'll get you hooked up. Thank you, John or John Well. I hope everybody has a great holiday season as well, and jumps right into predators. Now now it's time for that to start picking up. What about ice fishing? One of my favorite times a year. Ice fish is good too. I don't know, are you hard water angler? Oh yeah, really so I'm laying out all winter. So we drove by one of my favorite bourbon spots the other day, and the whole thing we're gonna talk about this is glassed over right now. Yeah, so it's only a matter of time before it's safe enough. I got me, I got me a brand new fore man eskimo, and then I got me a brand new eyeon ardor that there being a beat lake when I get down with it, ice is gonna be gone. Then drill the whole egg and then fish it on a boat. He's gonna be out on a floating ice cube. Actually, we did just make a resolution, me and my saying, stay, we're gonna get a bunch of white fish this winter. We're gonna do a bunch of whitefish, cooking fish, mountain white fish out of the river, those kind of white fish river river whitefish, grateful blue basse, all kinds of stuff. So yeah, they'll be fishing. Is that it yet more that I've got I've got a bunch of hot shooting tips, But it looks like we're not going that give us one right now? With the hell all right exposed? When did caps on your turrets on your scope, tape, shot tape, tape and tape and taping they have no business being there? Just when, just when did your elevation to just just quit screwing around with this stuff? Now? Aren't there a bunch of funny stories about guys hiking with non zero stop elevation turrets? You know and oh yeah, I've had a half. Oh my goodness, just like sitting away like laught and bag right and left where I am the best animal your life. Talk about a buzz kill, Oh my goodness. By concluding thus, John Edwards, get the cookbook, it's insane, I like this. Yeah, yeah, that was. We had a super cool event the other night with these guys and uh, the cookbooks. Great. I'm gonna try to read a recipe and put it into work, so that's kind of mine my thing. Good thanks for having us at the place. Man, it was fun. It's a great venue. It was a fun event. Yeah. Yeah, Steve, Steve, Steve and Yanni both. I mean, you guys rocked the house. But I mean how long how long did you meet and greet? Three hours? Four there until pretty late. Yeah, it went, it went long. But I meant to say, like they were people who flew in from most Missouri and Jersey to Montana. From Jersey. From Jersey was the farthest I think, so I heard Jersey, Oklahoma. Yeah, those are the too far one. You know that we ought to do John as we should uh do an annual holiday party man at SNAs like it. We'd always have a reason. We have to worry about making up reasons all the time. Just do it normal. And then we had this sort of super secret thing down the street at a little speakeasy. How did that go? That was I've been talking about? Was it all right? The best thing? Oh? Yeah? I was like, I feel like I have another regret in life now. That was turning down that invite. I don't know what I don't know what the rules are here, So it was, um My, including thought is you guys don't even know about it. Steve does though, But by the time this airs, if you have not heard about the new how to gut a deer, me eat your bandana, you've been living under a rock. And if you haven't gotten one yet for a stocking stuffer, you're being naughty. Set your set, your new friends, your new hunting buddies up, Set your old hunting buddies up. If they really know how to go to deer, it'd be like a fun guy joke. Tell me, haven't really shot that many things? They might need a little refresher. Talk about how you came up with the idea. I came up with the idea. I think two ideas sort of collided. Um, I was packing around a orange bandana that has a bunch of like emergency survival tips on it. I just always have a bandana in my rear pocket because my nose runs and cold weather, no matter how good I'm feeling, and I like to keep it clean. Its affiliated or anything. No, no, it doesn't. It's not flopping out of my rear pocket. My left one, no, tightly tucked away. And um so I had that. And then I think Garrett's girlfriend was out gutting a deer by herself and referencing pictures on her cell phone that she had taken of the Big Game guide books. I forgot about that, and so she's sitting there in the field cold. It actually was like a coal. I think it's two years ago. We had like a really cold late November. Yeah, and Dirt was hunting with some other dudes somewhere else. That's right. His girlfriend's hunting one area and he's offen some whole other area hunt with mugs with his buddies. She got a deer. So anyways, yeah, those I heard that story, and I was looking at this bandana. I was thinking, you know, be a good idea to have the instructions on how to go to deer on a bandana that also has other uses like blowing your nose, tying it onto an antler for actually safety when you're packing it out, flagging your friend. You and I are always flagging each other, especially in Cou's deer country with orange. Yeah, and be like, all right, go laught. That's right. Plus fashion fashion, you know, make a statement Willie Nelson man about all that dude got done with a bandana tied around his head. That's right. We haven't even mentioned that you could wear it as a head dress headpiece. So there you go, by a bandana. I like that really song where he's trying to convince his lady. He's like, yeah, you know, I run around a lot, but I'll always come home to you. That doesn't go over well anymore. Thank you for listening. Is that all right? If I say it, and I'd never get to say that. Yeah, wrapper up, all right, Thank you for listening.