00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is the me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything. Okay, Mitch Petriet, I want to return something we were talking about before we turn the machine. Un Um, did you say that muskie fishing in Minnesota is called the fish of a ten thousand casts? Not? But oh not, just maybe you're confusing that with the state ten thousand lakes. Yeah, it's just a number that was stuck in someone's head. Right now. They said the fish of ten thousand casts. Its just a known thing. Yeah. Um, but the way we do it, it's not the fish of ten thousand cast. The fish I would tell you it's evolved over the last five years. The lake will fish on has zebra muscles and a lot of milfoil, so the water clarity has really improved, and the muskies have moved a little deeper. Five years ago, there's hazards all over the lake, and um, the fish will there's always fish at these hazards, not always the same fish, But the structure is so perfect. We could just go and you would have a musky encounter almost guaranteed. You don't want to say the name of the lake. It's not a secret. There's no secrets in It's Lake Minnetonka and its old secrets musk fish. No, it's uh which is funny because you'll see guys out there that you'll they'll post photos and they'll delete the back the backdrop, so people don't know where they are. But it's like, well, you can figure out where they are for the most part. But no, it's it's a great musky lake and it's under a fair amount. There's a lot of pressure, but there's a lot of fish. I think the DNR estimates there's a thousand trophy muskies in Lake Minnetonka. What makes a trophy must that's what we're going for tonight. Yeah, right now are they're all kinds of northerns mixed in with these muskies. There are northerns and bass. This is the lake. It's it's amazing lake and it's twenty five minutes from downtown Minneapolis. Hence the pressure. Yeah. Yeah, um, in your life that how many muskies have you caught? I've only been doing it for counter cast on the golf clicker. I haven't click was really high, Yeah, I haven't, but uh, I had. I had a young young guy who worked for me was a musky guru, and he got me into it. My boss at the time a guy named Ron Chera, who was a local writer. He wrote the outdoor Beat for the Minneapolis Star Tribune for forty years. His advice to me when he heard that I was getting into muskie fishing was to take all my musky gear and destroy it before it ruins my marriage, because that's kind of what muskie fishing does, and it sucks because you can't catch them. You can't can't master it. Right. My maternal grandfather was a very avid musky fisherman. Yeah, he would fish northern Wisconsin. Yeah, it's that's a that's a great place for as well. That's probably he was a live bait mousky fisherman. Is I think probably most people were back then, right For we we use live baits here in the fall, so as the season goes on, the muskies start eating bigger, bigger baits and then in the fall they'll we do u we slow troll suckers, live suckers like suckers. WHOA, it's pretty cool because it's like fishing hell of it. Yeah, and you're just sitting and you're you're watching. You watch the tip of your rod. It will start bobbing and then you go. You feed it, line and the Because the muskie, once they get it into their mouth, it's not like a trout or something. If they feel it doesn't feel right, they spit it out right away. That once they taste that meat in their mouth, it's on my bucket list. I haven't done it, um, but I've I've seen it on the YouTube. Um. Muskies will take the sucker and won't have the hooks in their mouth, but guys will. You'll boat the fish and they're just holding onto the live sucker. They don't even have a hook in their mouth, but they're not. They won't let go of it. So Yeah, because they got the like a northern, they got those back angle, they got the teeth that locked. It's kind of when they grab something, man, it's like it's gonna rip when you pull it out. Yeah, it's not like that's not a two way street. No, you heard that same thing about the link cod right couples. You hear all. I haven't seen it happen, but anyone that spends a ton of time fishing them talks about catching them that aren't hooked, and then people are always catching them on catching link cod latched down to another link, cod latched onto a rock, fish latched onto a pink sam. He just comes up in the boat. We do a lot of fishing in northern Minnesota and walleye fishing, and a lot of stories of northern pike smacking of walleye as you're as you're bringing it in the same dale, they'll they'll hold onto that pretty good too. I have brought in northerns that we're on something else not hooked, And in fact, uh, not too long ago, I'm a little boy caught a large mouth on a bluegill and got it up in the boat into a pontoon boat. Yeah, and that thing wasn't hooked. It's fine, just holding on. I've had been bass fishing with little plastic worms and I've had sunfish holding onto the worm not hooked, come into the boat. That Yeah, he's ready for a big fight. Yeah. Uh, not here to talk about not here at all to talk about muskies. But lifelong Minnesota, Yes, sir, born and raised, born and raised UM Minnesota's UM just from where my family is. I've lived overseas, but I always came back here, and um, I told my boss, Minnesota is a hard place to recruit people to to come live here because probably the winters, but it's a hard place to recruit from as well. I think, you know, we have we have four seasons. Summers are relatively short, but you know, you get a good spring and a good fall, and um, yeah, there's over ten thousand lakes, which I thought was a pretty big deal until I went to Saskatchewan and there's like a hundred thousand up there. But we have a very very good you know, it's a little bit you know, I do a lot of work in Colorado and the in out west, great outdoor lifestyle. Minnesota has a little bit of that. Just no mountains, but a lot of lakes, a lot of water, a lot of water also, uh real quick. Also joined by Ryan Callahan, who's in You're you're just coming from the outdoor reelers. Retailers, reelers retailers yea yeah, outdoor retailer. Yeah. Um also in Denver, pretty good time. Fish out of water. No, no, not at all. It's not a super hunting crowd over there, you know, oddly enough, so I wouldn't. Uh. It was invited to kind of talk about hunting on a on a public panel at the Winter session, UM with folks from ari I Patagonia. UM, you know, this big public forum and it was kind of intimidating. But after we got done with that panel, I can't tell you how many people came up and they're like, man, that was great, and uh, you know, just so you know, I'm a hunter too. And then and I like, yeah, it was, yes, it was um. And then and I really like this trade show because because it's not hunting specific, I can just kind of lurk around and actually check things out. And and um, you know, a hunting community so small, you're always running into people, you know, constantly, you can't ever get anything done, so um, but you can just enjoy your anonymity and look at product. Yeah, but this I got stopped a ton um, a lot of meat eater fans, lots of folks that listen to the podcasts, lots of it. Seems like Old Dirt Myth was was there as well. Um, and we checked out a couple of you know, different companies for you know, the stuff that we use all the time, um, sleeping bags, and pads and boots and and every stop somebody in the booth would like break away from the conversation they were having, come over and be like, hey, you can thank you guys so much what you're doing. Like love the show. Yeah, And this is the one that pulled This is the um, this is what we're here to talk about either. But just real quick, outdoor you tailors is the one that in protest of public lands issues out of Utah. Like it's outdoor Retailers that pulled out and went to Denver. Right. Yes, it had traditionally been in Salt Lake City. Yeah, it's been in Salt Lake for a long time. Um and uh yeah. And and in an effort to swig Governor Herbert at the time on a lot of their beliefs on monuments, specifically the rescinding a bears ears in grand staircases galante um, they were leveraging with this giant check, this huge revenue stream that would come into Salt Lake City. Have you ever been to the Salt Palace in Salt Lake City? Yeah, most of those hotels and stuff down there didn't exist prior to that show. And so they said, well, we're gonna pull out if you guys support this and then they actually did it, and they actually did it, yeah, which you know, it's there's a real strong argument there that if you want to make some change, you gotta stick around, not take your ball and go home too. So, um, it's not as pre usual, it's not a cutting dry situation. I heard on the some feedback because I was in Denver yesterday as well that um, maybe last ye or two years ago there was like no camel at outdoor retailer, and this year it seems like I heard every booth a lot of products. I think otter Box has had a big presence there this year. A lot of camouflage at outdoor retailer, like cool kids snowboarding type squiggly lion camo like I like because it's like part of the snowboarding kind of came out of the snowboarding scene, or like camel like for like hiding from stuff winter or um, you know your ski brands sure enough that you know camo is is hip, you know, but it's so it's not stuff that you would see traditionally in the hunting space for the most part. Um, but summer are there's definitely like a little bit more. You know, a lot of people don't realize it, but these outdoor Research Patagon ya um, lots of these big brands also do military business. And you know that if if you're looking, you can see some of that stuff sitting on on the displays as well. So yeah, ARC, Tereks, Ore, Padagon, you all do military contractors. Yes, well yeah, and that stuff goes the real That stuff goals that the dudes were kicking down doors and places. Man. Yeah, no, I mean this isn't stuff that the general armies buying for everybody. Yeah, how about did you see any fishing camel? Because I came off of I cast a few weeks ago and now everything there's a lot of fishing camel patterns, and that has a it's a life. You don't need camel. We we won't be wearing cameo tonight when or at least not fishing camel when we fish. But I end up wearing a decent amount of camera when I'm fishing, just because I don't like having your you're accidentally cool Yeah, uh no, But that we saw a lot of fishing um cameos like blue, like lots of light blues and white. Some of it looks like water stuff and camels have some camel stuff. I have an llttle bean shirt that has a of a cool I might wear tonight. Actually, I just got an email from a dude. Uh, I need to read it more carefully, but this guy was kind of saying that he had He said, Yeah, I don't wear a camera anymore because it's uh politically too divisive. M we're thinking, like I feel like right now that's not the case. No, And there's a lot of cool kid camea a lot of skinny Jean Cama like um and also Janie Poodless. You hone got an email there to day from a guy who said his wife's name is Janice, but she smells at j A N I c E. And I need to write him back and clarify that it's in fact be honest. Please do that. I will missed miss peech. You tell uh tell him what you do for a living. I'm a vice president programming for the Outdoor Sportsman Group networks, which are Outdoor Channel, Sportsman's Channel, and the World Fishing Network. So if you've got a question about what what in the world is the world aboutdoor TV? This is the man it's fair to say you know more about it than maybe anyone at this particular moment. Let's say I wouldn't say I know more than anyone, but I have a pretty unique perspective on what I know based on all the interactions that I have. I was a producer for ten years before I joined the network, like produced the TV show, produced TV shows. I did Wardens in Montana. That was one of the my first breakout hits that got me on the radar of the network at least. UM Wardens gets talked about every time I go home because we're always right around the Sun River game range. And there's that episode with the shed antler and like the radio that radio they put little radio controllers and the antlers so they can track down. We got some pretty cool stories and we told a lot of them on Warden, and so we did that for six years in Montana. What channel was that on? That wasn't on channel it was? Yeah, it still is. In fact, we've actually moved it from Montana to Michigan. UM, so it's still going strong. I think we've had probably a hundred and fifty episodes. Are you involved with it? Yeah, I'm still still I think officially as still the executive producer UM. I started it with UH with a former partner guy named Steve Puppy who got me into television back in the day. He was former Hunter Specialties UM Road Warriors, so he had an HS truck and would go and do UM work trade shows and work different retails with different retailers and especially the game calls. Yeah, and then he did a DVD which was probably a VHS at the time. So you want to be a bow hunter or so you want to be a turkey hunter? And he was I think it was national. He was Minnesota state champion turkey call. You know. He he started his own TV show, and my wife and I got involved with that, and that's how I got dabbling in too, into TV. Coming out of software sales, coming out of software sales France, yea. And I lived, you know, in France and in Australia, worked for a manufact My my wife will tell you she married a computer geek and who evolved into a redneck because I mean I have I've fished my entire life. I did some pheasant hunting and small game hunting as a kid, you know, from like thirteen on. But I've just always been a fisherman. Um. But I just kind of went away. We went overseas and we didn't just didn't do that very much. We came back and and now she's lost me to fishing and hunting. Um. So you so you went when you were producing the show though you weren't you weren't working with the nut, you weren't working with Outdoor Channel Sportsmen Channel. Uh, we had a production company called Mudy Boot Productions, and we just we did sold the show. Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah, you know that's that's one of the first is when I asked to explain when people wonder about uh, people want to like outdoor TV or people called hunting TV. Can you explain? Because there's different ways in which the like there's different business models by which the networks will engage with shows where you have shows that networks own, so you have shows that but it's like Outdoor Channel sports and Channel will own there shows that they license. And then there's then there's a thing called time buys. Can you walk people through what a time by it? Sure? And I've looked for other examples of television networks similar to ours, and that time by model exists on a smaller scale in some places, but for the most part, hunting television has is just unique where well it but a time by model would be like an infomercial show or channel right exactly do that, but um, like the Golf channel. You could buy time on the Golf channel, but most of their programming is owned by the Golf channel. UM. The the the way television evolved is, UM. You know, the networks create this platform. You know, they negotiate with the carriers to to be in you know, millions of homes. And before my time, they just went out to producers who wanted we're starting to film their hunts and just wanted to um put them somewhere. So the network would essentially sell them commercial time, UM and sell them a thirty minute block and they would get five minutes of commercials and UM. That's kind of how that model was born. So it's still probably eight of our business, our independent producers looking for a place to air their content. So we have it's yeah, and at a time it was right, right. So what happened as things evolved in the networks start to grow and the affiliates you know, want different things. UM, the network started investing in its own content so that we could Like Wardens was an original program, original production that we produced four outdoor Channel UM. It didn't fit that time by model where we couldn't go out and get endorsement deals. We didn't have a host. We had game Wardens that we were following, so we couldn't fund the production. But that's these The essence of the time by model is you create a show, we air it on our network, You get commercial inventory, You sell commercials or other things to your sponsors to fund the production and to pay for your airtime. But a lot of companies, there's a lot of companies who look at doing a time by as basically as a marketing spend for the company. Right right. One of the shows I produced UM as an independent UM was Fox Pro Fur Takers. It's a predator hunting show, and so you know that's their brand, Fox pro Um. They're hunting anyways, So they started filming and you know, we did real high quality production and for them it's a marketing expense. They also brought in some sponsors to help underwrite it. But at the end of the day, you know, they weren't making a profit on their TV show. But it was a per platform to get their message out, um, you know, to a to a mass audience. And that's what that's our networks deliver. Are we built in audience who is you know, knows what to expect when they turn on the TV and watch Sportsman Channel. So when a company, let's say you play and I don't, let's just say like take a place like Cabellas or bass Pro or or any manufacturers, retailers, manufacturers, they'll do the time. They'll do the time by and then of course they their block of time. They have their half hour segment has the show in it, so they're making a national show. But it also has AD units. So there are companies that will they'll they'll come in and uh use some of the AD units to draw the connection to their own brand. But then they might also go and have AD units they're used by other outside partners of their exactly bass Pro shops has um productions. They have their own production operations, so they buy time from us, for example for the bass pros on Outdoor Channel. So yes, know that they run bass Pro and now Cabella's spots in that show, but they'll also run well they and they'll do they've got other brands too, so their nitro boats, but they might do a mercury um commercial in it, or they may even have um, you know specific you know, Strike King or something as a sponsor of the show. So even though the retailer owns the show, uh, they have a team that will go out and sell it in the NA does the same thing, Like we have an n RA show American Riflemen Um that the n r A owns and produces. They have their own production operation, but they go out and sell a lot of advertising around that and then they have a magazine that supports the production as well. Another thing that happens, and this is I think where this is what's a little bit more interesting is the onything that happens is an individual can go and build a show, right because I think there's a lot of people who like are like how do how does one have? Like how does a person get a hunting show? And I think that it's probably like the path And I don't want to say it's the path of least resistance financially because there's a ton of resistance finance. There's a lot of work to put it together, but like layout, how a person like an individual not a big company. How an individual goals and creates a show and finances a show. It's um. It's evolved a little bit because the barrier to entry has gotten a little bit higher. But you know, ten years ago, it was you know, a guy who loves to hunt, UM has a buddy who knows who knows how in air brackets, how to film, or how to edit, and they just you know, they and everybody thinks they're interesting and entertaining, so they're gonna they're gonna do their hunting show. UM. And there are a lot of shows that got that started that way. But the networks started raising this standard quality and you have to start buying better equipment and hiring more talented people and involved. But there's a lot of people that just started with that dream of wanting to wanting to to hunt. They watched you know, Bill Jordan on TV and uh T n T thirty years ago and and wanted to be that. Now there's a lot of people that you know, want to be the next Michael Wadel. And so there's still that that dream of just buying a camera and buying a mac and cutting a show, going to getting a bunch of sponsors, selling advertisement space. But that's I think that's when I advised people early on, because you know, we get a lot of inquiries and I usually tell them, you know, you have you have to probably plan to spend upwards of five thousand dollars to get a show off the ground, to do it right, to have the production values, and to build a brand to the point where advertisers want to be a part of it. And that's probably the biggest mistake the aspiring outdoor TV personalities make is these brands are not interested in funding your lifestyle. They're moving They're interested in moving product. So some of the best in in TV have been the most successful. I should say, have you know, have understood that. You know, guys like Pat Reeve from Driven TV, and he's been doing this for thirty years, he knows at the end of the day, if if his show, if he's not using product properly and not over not over selling it, you know, not it's not to the point where you raise suspicions exactly. And it's it's it's a battle that that I fight, um because I get it, you need to satisfy your your sponsors and your advertisers. But you're Also, you know, you don't want to oversell. Viewers can smell the cell. You know, we'd I'd rather see them just use a product properly and then say, hey, look at this thing with Jack, I'm using here and this is making me you know, kilmore deer or a bigger deer. Whatever. Viewers get that they want they just want to see the success. So so we we try to minimize the commercial elements in a show, but you know, that's what's funding that. But like I said, I think the biggest mistake the youth are making is they feel like, oh these there's there's no brands out there that you know, their mission is to help somebody else, you know, pay for their hunting. It's they want to move products. So and that's what we're That's a lot of our content inspires people to get out and hunt and and you know they learn a lot from you know, on new products and how to use them and use them properly. So increasingly, you guys want to be I mean, coming from the network perspective, you want to be in a situation where you're saying like, sure, you're buying space from our network. But there's some parameters around this like I'll I'll sell it to you on the condition that your product meets a certain threshold of quality. And and that too has evolved because you know, Outdoor Channel has UM has had very high standards UM for the better part of a decade where and we've we've been sold out for the most part for the past fifteen years, so we can discriminate a little bit about you know, what kind of content we're willing to take. Oh for help for you say, for fifteen years, you haven't had like worry about how you're going to fill that spy that space though not known in in absolutely in prime time. You know, I don't have a lot of flexibility because I've got a lot of long time shows that have owned those time slots for a long time and and have been very successful. Um. You know for us and for them that that's I say a lot. I'm in the business of creating these mutually beneficial relationships. We have all of these assets and investments in our networks and building our audience so that when the show when Mediator comes on, you know it's gonna it's gonna reach that audience. UM. And then the producer needs to go out and be successful in selling that time to their sponsors to fund it. And if if they're not successful, then we're not going to be successful. But yeah, we've been sold out for the better part of a decade. Well we're emailing. You mentioned, uh, you you mentioned the good, the bad, and ugly about or television. What do you mean by that? Uh? When I took this job, you know, I had, you know, a vision and and really a goal to to leave hunting and fishing not just hunting and fishing intelligence, but in a better place than than um than when I when I came into it. Um. But there's a lot of masters, you know, and there's a lot of you know, um people have very specific tastes and what they like, and so you know, we have some producers who are um, you know, loud and and um and great characters and they tend to draw a good audience, but they also draw detractors. And so I'll have you know people, Oh you need to get rid of that show because of that or I'm only into uh, you know, western archery, hunting, I don't want to. I don't care about you know, Midwest deer and and guys whispering in the tree. So um, and yeah, so I have to program the network to reach a broad audience, whether it's you know, we have upland shows and not everyly, you know, and we have archery shows, and so I get the ugly thing. I get all the viewer feedback, although social media is evolving some of that now. Most people just go to the show pages and start bashing in that, but they're less likely to call, you know, if someone wants to. We have a feedback form on our website, and so I'll get it. But so if somebody wants to send feedback, they have to go to our website. It's not hard to find. They find the form, they fill it out, and they have to answer a couple of questions and they so. So by the time I get that kind of feedback, I'm dealing with somebody who's passionate about it. And um, you know, we we respond to viewer feedback, and I'll personally respond if someone has is critical, as long as they're respectful, I'm happy to respond. What would be an example of a criticism that would come in, I mean those people being dissatisfied with something they saw Right on Outdoor Channel we were running some syndicated shows We're running Wickedtuna right now, which is an awesome show if him and follow Wikatuna um. And we did deaditi'st Catch and Duck Dynasty and Duck Dynasty. Uh, A lot of our people, the core audience, hunting audience don't. They don't like Duck Dynasty. But that surprised me to hear when someone, someone who's very familiar with that show was explaining that it wasn't it's not hunters weren't watching that show as much. Right, So the the idea, so, like I said, we have we have many masters, and we work with affiliates, you know, Dish, Direct TV, Comcast, all the major carriers. And this hunting market is not expanding the financial side that you know, there's a finite amount of money in this market. It wasn't getting bigger hunting. It's debatable, you know, numbers are are declining or participation is declining. So as a for our company to succeed and for our producers to succeed, we had an initiative to try to expand our audience. We had research that showed that people who maybe don't participate in hunting or fishing, but like outdoor adventure programming like Deadliest Catch, like Duck Dynasty. Um, we called him like it's a primary attain anable audience for us. So that's why we brought in Duck Dynasty. They have this huge brand. Whether you like the show or not, the brand recognition for Duck Dynasty back in the day was like of the general public were aware of Duck Dynasty and we were the first network to syndicate it, and it brought in new audience. We can we can show, we've done research, we've seen the numbers. So it actually helped us grow our audience and helps us maintain our distribution. But if I'm a white tail hunter from Iowa, I don't want to watch duck Dynasty or you know, fake reality TV or whatever it is. So you want to learn how to kill big giant bucks and yeah, and the reality is this, Um, the hunting market is driven by deer and the fishing market is driven by bass. So yeah, my impression of how hunting my impression of how people watched Hunting TV probably the correct, But my idea was that people watched it like how people watch the news. Where are people that just have UM and they just watch what's there? You're saying that people like the viewers Cherry Pick, like I watched that show. I don't watch that show, you know. I think one of the biggest and this wasn't from research, but just from talking to people. Most of our viewers, you know, they're they're they're hardcore. So if you're watching hunting, it's because you're really like you're in into hunting. And I think they judge the shows they watched mostly by if they would want if they would want to be in camp with the talent. You know, I um, I hunted last year with Roger Regland, who's been in the business for thirty years, and and part of it was because I was like, when I watched Roger Regland on TV, I want to experience what it's like to be in a camp with Roger Regland. And that's a lot of the feedback you get in social media as well as you know, Michael Waddells, I wish I could hunt with Kip Campbell from Red Arrow, so so you know, and there are guys that that don't appeal to certain people. So I think when they watch it, they're like, yeah, I mean, it's it's like almost I can't hunt now. But I'm gonna be watching these guys hunt and that's that's how they picked the shows they like. What are some of the um of the uh kind of like the famous talent pool, right, what are like? You got people that you look forward to them calling, and then hosts that you really don't look forward to them calling, like right, because you're you're communicating with all these people, they're chancing of them. We'll hear this. No, no, okay. So um, I started as a producer and UM and and had my own company. So I've I've run a small business and most of our producers are small business owners, and I've walked that path. It's not easy. So I go into whether I like somebody personally or connect with them as a friend, whatever. I go into almost all of the conversations with a certain amount of respect for what they're doing growing their business. You know, we have producers who have you know, ten employees and it's you know, so they're they're very passionate about hunting and and the business. So so yes, there are times when I my phone rings and UM, I wouldn't say I cringe, but it's like okay, and I'm you know, I the biggest problem I have is I I don't I can have three things I need to get done in a day, and um, my day will be hijacked by like eight fifteen. And Mondays are the worst because something will come up over the weekend and so I'll get a call and they're they're they're all important calls. So I try to take them all as I can, but it's hard to get through. Um. But I we definitely have characters in in the lineup and um, um, there's there's none I don't there's none that I dislike, but definitely have those that are just a hoot. I'm yeah, I'm I'm a sucker for you know, people with passion. So and so, I like, I had a conversation today with Mark Zona. He's a bass fishing guy. Zona's awesome fishing show. And that guy he's hard, hard core, he is intense, he's an amazing already. He's a Chicago guy, lives in Michigan. But he's, um just a great character and um and he's somewhat polarizing too to you know, some people don't like his style because he's, you know, dude, He's a he says dude a lot. But it's but he's authentic and I'm drawn to that in our talent. I like our I like talent who are the same off camera and on camera, because at some point it's hard to I don't want to know. It's like, oh, on this on camera guy or the It's most of our our hosts are authentic, you know. And uh, I like that. And um, we work with Ted Nugent and um to explain Ted, and I've worked closely with him. He's in a league of his own. I mean, he's a rock star, he's a hunting TV star. He's yeah, and and I mean Ted has um there's nobody can do what Ted does. I mean people think they might be able to do, but to go on to CNN and take on Pierce Morgan and and when just be Ted, you you can't. I've met Ted and I've met Donald Trump now, and you can't connect with these guys like we can connect. We can connect over fishing, we can connect over food, we can connect over Ted is just he's so driven and that that dude works harder than any human being I've ever seen in my entire LEAVE mean, he still does like two concerts a year and he hunts like forty days a year or it's like seriously, I mean he's he's just always out doing something. Um and he's and he's passionate. So UM we had we we did something as a network that Ted didn't appreciate and he called me one day and um told me that, And for fifteen minutes he told me that, And I was like, man, and he was. He was in a very been a very very spirit very quickly spoken, articulate fashion. Yeah. No, and he exactly and it wasn't bad and he was not disrespectful. But I was like, going, man, mo, people, if you want to hear Ted Nugent go off like this, you have to find it on YouTube. I'm like, one on one on the phone. I wish I could have recorded it because he's he's brilliant that way and UM so that Yeah, I enjoy working with Ted and um and but he's one of the most unique talents on our network. So when you're when you're fitting out like the programming, right, do you picture like walking into a big sporting goods store where you're like, oh, here's the fishing section. Make sure the fishing is okay, and then here's my you know, like warm water. Yeah, here's upland over here, here's camping, here's big game hunting, here's the waterfowl. Like do you do? You try to keep all that in mind and make sure that you're not missing anything or could or do you want to realize now? And then you have like a big hole. You know, I inherited first of all, you know this the the lineup essentially in the schedule, and I have a pier who I work with, UM Katie Gladstone, who actually does the scheduling, so she's more analytical on the on the schedule and she's looking at ratings UM. But the business, the time by business has really established a lot of that for us, where seasonally there's UM, there's less demand in TV hunting TV in first and second quarter, so fishing kind of built up in first and second quarter. And then the retail cycles because hunting retail, you know, it's mostly like September, October, November, so that's when the retailers and the advertisers want to be in there. So the market has kind of driven some of that schedule. And then yes, we will do UM will focus more white tail or big game in primetime and third and fourth quarter. But you know, weekend mornings have become fishing uh pretty much year round. UM. Weekend afternoons are very good UM day parts for us UM. So we will run waterfowl, upland and some of the non big game in those time slots. So it has kind of it has kind of filtered out that way, much like you do see in a retail store because you're chasing people's interests, or you're chasing because because you're chasing what people let me put this there for way, so you're timing it out because that's where the advertising dollars are for producers. Are you timing it out because some guys like I'm hunting deer in a week, I want to watch about deer now, And I don't want to watch about deer in May because in May I want to watch about fishing. Right. Yes, our our viewership grows. Viewers watch when they're actually participating, so there's like a real feedback between what a person's ex what a person is experiencing, and what they're wishing to watch. Yeah, or like if they're mentally preparing for their hunting season, they'll start watching more hunting and then while they're but what about dudes watching wardens. They're not like seeing like I'm gonna be getting busted by a warden next week. Now, Warden Wardens was a bit of an anomaly it um, and you know, we think it was successful because it had such a broad appeal. Like in the story packages were smaller, you know, they were only like five minutes segments, Like you might not be interested in the you know, antler hunting on a game range, but that was only five minutes. The next one's going to be, you know, some guy shooting at elk decoy and that was kind of interesting. So it was like an ensemble type show that follows these a bunch of different people as opposed to you know, if you know, trout fishing historically hasn't rated very well and so if but if you're a trout fisherman, you got some of that on Wardens or and everybody's had their own warden encounters or warden stories and and when we're in Montana and now we're in Michigan, those are both great states. I mean, Montana is a very unique state in terms of its resources. So we had viewers just wanted to learn about Montana and the wardens were great characters there too, so um, they it just had broad appeal. If you if you're gonna go look at all the let's just say all the hunting content, So remove fishing counts, all the hunting content from Outdoor channel, Sportsman channel. What percent of all of that content is driven by the white tail deer? Mm hmm it's probably Wow. Yeah you like that. Yeah, you know the first thing you said, I can't believe it. Yeah, I would have thought high. I would have thought a little higher. White tails and turkeys though, what's that? Yeah, what's what's so? What's number two next to white tails? Um? We do a lot of elk, so, a lot of a lot of big game um, and some of the aspirating moose. So yeah, it's big game. I think people like the people like to watch a moose show, right. Jim Shocky will tell you that. You know, his ratings they bump every time he does a big yukon moose. So um, and that's aspirational. We see a lot of that. You know, there's not a lot of people who participate in sheep hunting or goat hunting, but they'll watch it on t V because it's one one thing is interesting though your show is very different I think. But a lot of times like the big international destinations and I'm not talking to Africa, I'm not. But like you know, hunting in the Himalayas or or as Michael Widelf accused, Jim Shocky hunting red bearded devil goats in Djibouti or something like that, it doesn't really drive you know, viewership, because you know, your your average Joe can't really wants to see deer, or they can relate to a moose, or they can relate to an elk even if they don't participate. Now because in there, it's in there like spatial awareness. Man, it's like a thing that one could feasibly go do right. And people while you'll watch some sheep shows or something like the ibex shows because the destinations are really cool and and it's it's kind of out there, but they it, you know, it's it people. They're not they're not driven like they are for deer hunting. I like Shocky tho. He's a good dude. He's a he's a very very interesting guy, really really nice guy, authentic too. So last year, um, he came into our booth at the archery trade show, just to say hi, and Um, I was at a brief conversation with him. Within thirty seconds, there's somebody standing next to him waiting to tell him a story or meet him or do something. He was there for like three hours, meeting his fans and talking to people. He didn't do it appear wasn't a scheduled appearance. He wasn't just you know, just you know, loving it and people staying they're being like, look at this, but my cousin shop. Yeah, exactly. There's a downside to that too. I've had conversations, Um, you know, Um, Will Primos is a guy who I have a lot of respect for, and I'm telling you as just like a communicator and a consistent personality. Yeah, and just like a guy that seems like a good human being. Will Primos. Yeah, So I'm going hunting with him this fall. I get, you know, good for you. I get some good opportunities and I want to Um have those experiences. We don't while I can, so I don't get to do a lot. But Will and I we actually did some business together five years ago and we had talked about going and this last year I just said, well, I think now is the time I've never gone on an elk hunt. I've probably watched ten thousand elk hunts on TV. So I'm excited and I'm a I'm a very passionate like turkey hunter. And you know, when I get a turkey, I call it turkey and it it's goblin and I can feel it Drummond and Strutt and I just get super excited. So when I have an elk coming at me, and the first time, I told well, I might have to wear diapers because I can't imagine how awesome it's going to be. So We're going to New Mexico and I'm going to do on archery l hunt in September. You talked about that thing where that happens, where it's like you you want to be with someone to listen to, even just to put in and I like, honestly have a bunch of the CDs like to put in his stuff. And here Will pretty most explain things right right, He just explains things now and then in a way where, um, he explains things where I'm jealous that I had thought to put it that way, and that it's you're drawn into Will and the pre most just it's one of the top shows on our network. And it's not They've got good production values and they've got a great team. But the reality is it's exactly that he just connects with the viewer on a very deep let. People are comfortable with him, They trust everything he says. He's not just schlepping product. He is. Actually he's you know, passionate about he's using it, he's developing product. So he's been very successful at doing that. One of the things it is for me is he likes animals. Yeah, he likes animals. He likes knowing about them, he likes being around them. For him, animals are not a tool by which to secure fame or perceived fortune or something that he kind of also a little bit doesn't maybe like that much. It's like he loves wildlife and likes to be in proximity to it and and all the elements of the hunt and the camaraderie and the family and yeah, it's and likes talking to them. You don't speak the language. Things like he's real it's just a cool slogan and tricking him. Yeah, if humanity were to end and all the planet were to die off, except for just Will Primos. I think that Will Primos would still go um out and observe wildlife. Yeah, I'm getting this. You know, I shook the dude's hand with time, and he didn't know who I was or what I was doing. It was a long time ago, but I'm just getting this and listening to his his DVDs. Yeah, Yeah, he's he's a he's a good guy and and and you know, an amazing businessman too, you know. Um, I'm trying to think he tells a story about how he got started um making the mouth calls. He used, he used to buy condoms for to take it to Latex, And I think he tells a story about being I think he I think he went and bought it, had to buy some condoms and he ran into like the father of one of his classmates, and it was so anyway, that was before he was buying it commercially in that. But there's there's so many little stories like that in this That's why I want to spend time in camp with these guys to hear more like that. Uh, you brought up the idea. I'm not floating as you brought this idea. U. UM is hunting TV good or bad for the sport. There's a lot of people, there's a lot of people who hunt, a lot of people who finished I feel that would say it's bad. That's why I brought it. I hear it from I hear it from them all the time. I want, well, I want to That's why I wanted to talk about because I'm interested to hear what you all think about it. Um. I I generally think it's good, and we at the network worked very hard to make sure that it's good in terms of the quality that makes it to air, the ethics around it, the story telling, the conservation message, the you know, recruitment and participation. I think those are all good things. But when I talk about the good and the bad and the ugly about TV, it's like, well, there's there's other sides of it that you know, people don't care for. If you're a Western big game hunter, you don't like to see some of the things that you know your your colleagues might do and and a big part of the market. Does you know there's there's people who don't like predator hunting, you know, or just you know it's not for or Africa hunting. You know, there's that's very polarizing. Um, you know, part of our programmatic mix. UM. So in general, I think it's good, but I thought it'd be something worthy of discussing because you know, there are there are those who who who don't think it is that this is um, this is a personal sport, and that it doesn't belong on TV. I think it's done a lot to help promote hunting, and when it's done properly, it's a very good thing. Yeah, if I was the imagine, like if I was to think of the different criticisms I hear, I think that that that's kind of that's a big one. It's just that that Thomas mckiner, he didn't use it in this in this context, but like pissing in the cathedral, you know that it's like this, it's this very personal thing. You're in the out of doors, you're out you know you're in the outdoors because you're someone asked you where why some people say out of doors and outdoors. When I grew up as a magazine Michigan out of doors, I just got in my head out of doors. When you're in the outdoors in nature, it's like this personal experience you're having and some people feel that too film it is, to film it and put it out there for distribution, it's kind of like sacrilegious. There's like the whole point of it is that it's private and self contained and it's something that you live and experience in your own space and in your own head. To take that and package it for consumption and put like a personality behind it, it just it strikes him as being a little bit offensive. And I think that of the other things, like the other criticism, I'll have people come and be like, oh, it's you know, it's all an infomercial, right, And I think you can kind of explain that by talking about what the model of it is, like, like how it works, how it's funded. But the and I don't even really pay attention to that one. But the one that does strike me is that one where it's just like it's sacrilegious. And I think that, uh, the reason that speaks me a little bit is because it is something that, um, it is something that that I do like that part of me feels right like there there's there's like push and pull inside everyone's head. And I think even my own brothers who I grew up hunting and fishing with and there are two of the most dedicated hunters and fishermen that I know. Uh, they just out of the box, were deeply suspicious of my involvement in doing outdoor television writing about it. Supportive of that, right, they felt that aesthetically, that's like okay, but then look at the deep history of it, like people have been writing about it since people were writing, so there's like there's a trajectory there, there's like a thing that's like for hundred plus years more well, I mean, the it's kind of funny how deep it goes because if you go back and look at the oldest known representational art in Europe is people while aren't right writing the story of their hunt on a cave wall. So it's something that it's like acceptable because there's something very personal and intimate about writing. But to them it was kind of like you're gonna do what all right, film it and then put out your innermost personal experiences out for like why would they want to? Why? You know, just a suspicion man. And I haven't fully and I haven't fully I've never really found like a really great way of countering I haven't found like a great way of countering the argument. There's something people say and I'm I always look forward to him saying it because you can you can tear their argument apart so easy that it's almost fun. But that one is not one I really look forward to taking now because I have to kind of say, like, if you feel that way, I'm probably not going to change your opinion about it. I'd like, I'd like if you watch the show, but in your show could change that person's opinion. But there are others and they're they're not wrong for it. That wouldn't because there it's more of a character driven hunting show, and it is kind of a hey, you know, look at me. Michael wat L is a very passionate U you know, hunting that, but he's a character. People watch him because they're they're curious about, you know, what he's gonna say and how how he acts in that. Very different than um you know, UM Sportsman's channel is we've differentiated the networks a little bit. Our outdoor channel is more UM general entertainment talent driven type content, where Sportsmen, because a lot of our magazines have driven that content, is more editorial style. It's less about the talent and more about the the art, and so our our viewers are different that way. And interestingly enough, UM, I remember that the exact number, but it's probably around like of our magazine readers actually watch the network the TV because it's a different it's just a different type of consumer. If I'm going to read UM Guns and Ammo, it's because I'm interested in guns and AMMO and I'm gonna go I want to go deep. If I'm going to watch um The gun Father on Outdoor Channel, it's because I want to be generally entertained. It's not because necessarima firem enthusiasts. So so when someone says, you know, I think it's a very personal thing, they're right. For them, it is, But for millions of others it's not. It's it's inspiration all they're they're learning. As you're gonna say, it's it's very hard to generalize too. And we have two hundred different producers and a lot of different shows, so you know, I could tell you that, yeah, Um, your show is is very personal for people, and they you know, they whereas some of the others, you know, not so much. It's just about that hunt and and huge audiences like those shows too, So there's no right or wrong answer either. No, the aspirational stuff is big because we get so many notes from people who watch the show. I'm sure, oh, show any show and then and then say that like say to themselves, I'm going to go do that, right, which is cool to hear about um, and and it's like it's nice to know that that there's that inspiring aspect of right and as in everything, there's also flips side of that where you're like, man, so tags just got even a little bit harder to draw. We used to get we get and Montana's are unique and so Wardens would generate a lot of feedback. And I remember, I've probably saved him. I should send you some of them. Uh. You know, the locals in Montana did not like the Warden show because you're showing people where we you know, all of our great hunting. We don't like non residents. Keep them out of here. You don't pay taxes in Montana. You shouldn't be hunting here as I really, I mean, so, um, we got some pretty good gredging tourist state. I've always said, yeah it is. We've had interesting, interesting experiences there too, just trying to operate a show for um six years in Montana. I mean there there was resistance, yeah, from the general population, and there's also people who who absolutely loved it, but not everybody. Ye, A lot of people hate any kind of incursion into their own thing. We try to be really respectful, uh, in any kind of public land situation, which is the bulk of ours. Yeah, the bulk of ourself is filmed on public land, and we have certain like lines we don't cross in terms of not blowing a spot out. But that criticism is extended even like that kind of thing is extended way outside of just hunting television or fishing television. Because in the ski world, the surf world, I'm sure probably in the mountain biking thing. It's like there's people who feel passionate and do it. They look at representations of it like public outputting. They're already suspicious of public output people putting the experience out for public asumption, and the first thing that's gonna jump in their mind is you're gonna send the masses to my spot. And when it comes to things like a particular break to a surfer or a particular meadow, that's real man. It's like people are talking about like, oh, you're gonna ruin you know, tourism is gonna ruin Paris. Right, You're talking about like millions of people and you're adding some number more and it's hard to track it. But if you've got like a little meadow, it's easily identified. Easily identified. One dude ruins it. So get this. So coming off of I cast my wife and I did some fishing to two short stories from their one Mark Davis, who does Penn's Big Water Adventures, Big Salt Water, great show, great character, Penn pen reels, Yeah, pen reel so um my and Mark goes all over the world fishing and he had somebody come up to him at the show and they said, you know you gotta come down here. We got red fish and Mars like do you like you? And guy was just selling him on the quality of the fishery and the giant fish and how amazing it was. Mars like, do you do you like your fisher You like how it does? Then I'm not going to go there because if he goes there, everybody else will go there. Not to show, but like people will show up and it can have a significant impact on the fishery. And the example I'll give you is my wife and I fished with Carter Andrews. After I cast and we um, we can we found these red ant chovies, these giants schools a red ant chovies really cool and like the size of a football field, and there was ar been rolling in them, and um, we've we did a Facebook live event and I caught a tarp in the next day in that in that um And apparently two or three days later, there's like nine boats off this area because people recognize the bridge or whatever. We probably they knew we were off the Virile Virile beach and it's like, you know, that was just some minor social media exposure and all of a sudden, it's like, I mean I was gone already, but they had continued fishing, and they're like, yeah, when they showed up, there were already three boats on it. Two other boats came in. The word is out, yeah, but but here's but that's the funny. That's the kind of the point I'll make it too, is the word there's three people right, like that is that's the tipping point, right, and but then that that's that spot is like done. It I mean there's too much pressure now and it's like everything moves off. But on a on a more positive note though, um, there's when you go to a tackle shop. It's probably the same in Montana where you go to a fly shop, but the word gets out, like you know, whopper ploppers is a is a top water bait and you can't find him around here because somebody started catching fish on whopper poppers And now all the stores are sold out. So you'll go in across the country and like rapp Las headquartered here in Minneapolis, um, and they sell countdowns use like just original floating rapplers, and in one store they can't keep them in stock, and then another story they can't sell them because it's just some guy locally had success on it. And people just start hearing what and the and the tackle guys starts you know there there starts moving him. So as a community we are we do a lot of word of mouth, I think, So you right, it has a downside where you can you can really have an impact. The criticism so high. They're like if you do something like if if a person in the outdoor media does something where you reveal that people are pissed. But then if you go to any you know, you go to any mountain town, right, and you go with a local fly shop, they put a say in which board what do you call a little things like that. I love that they put like a little board out on the sidewalk that says where the bite is and what they're biting on. I think that you get rock Creek squalles. I think it's brilliant because exactly, you know, if you're a retailer, you you need people to have success, you know, so, and that's that's what like, But no one goes and kicks the door. Maybe the dude, do people get pissed at flashops were sending everybody where the hot bite is. Yeah, but at the same time big information to I think also a creek. It's like, Okay, I know this guy is telling me this. Probably just told the last people that we We were over in the Henry's Fork this year. UM ran over there to uh fish, you know, the salmon flies were coming off on the Henry's Fork and uh, some of the guys I was with there like we gotta go int the fly shop and I gotta pick up a few things. I said, Okay, no matter what, this stretch that I want to fish is what we're gonna fish, and that's what your intell like, I do not care what these guys think, So of course we end up fishing the stretch that the guys at the fly shop told us to fish, and I was just in a bad mood the whole time we get down there. There's more trailers at the put in than I've ever seen. The people running shuttles on the river have like two fifteen passenger vans out of shuttle shuttle drivers because they're moving more boats and trailers on the stretch than they ever have. And I'm like, folks, this is this is what a sucker looks like. That's unique to fly fish because bass fishermen lie. I mean, they'll come off the water and do you what'd you catch your fish on? Oh? You know, we were fishing crank bits and deep weel lines, and of course they're fishing like worms on docks. They'll lie about everything, but the fly shops will, you know, I don't know if they embellish, but I appreciate it when they do. As a but I can see how you're gonna You're gonna stack that river up in that section because they're telling everybody. I was standing there with a body mine one time years ago and we had just skinned to bear. It was spring, spring season and we're coming out a logging road and a guy pulls up and he looks at my buddies pants and says, to him, looks like someone got one. And he still looked some straight in the face as well, it's just some old rabbit blood, you know. And it's like awkward because everyone knows that it's just not true. And it was kind of like more it was almost more painful to me than if he had just said Like I would have been irritated if he had said it, but it was more painful to me to have a standing lie, right, Like I have a difficult time like if someone says, hey, how is the fishing, um, I find I find myself trying to not lie. But then you know, but oh it's okay, I got a couple, right, I can't just be like nothing. One factor was something of it, Yeah, because yeah, you wind up trying to be like not a horrible person, but then also you want to serve your own purposes a little bit. We're so fortunate Minnesota. Like there bass fishing. If you like catching bass, I mean that they that saying is I think God put bass on the earth so everyone could catch a fish, and muskies to separate the men from the boys. So we're gonna go muskie fishing tonight, but if we want, we catch bass. And you can catch bass on every lake, yeah, exactly, every single well, every lake in Minnesota has bass in it. And they're they're not that smart, and they're they're fun. And so I'm all, I'm all about participation, growing participation, taking kids out, taking friends out. I love to take them hunting and fishing. So I'm I'm an open book when it comes to and I also like on my social media, I'll post when I don't have success because otherwise people think, well, you know that I only they don't underst and that we don't always go out and and and catch tons of fish. Um. I've been able to fish by myself more this. I've got three young boys, so it's normally I'm not ever by myself between friends, family, and work. But when I go on my own, I'll go and I'll explore new water or new techniques and I won't have success. But you know, we're gonna fish a spot tonight that I found when I was looking for small moth beeds and I ended up finding a giant muskie area. So what do you call the area? This was just a weed bed, so it was and it was the water was crystal clear, and I was I just kind of drifted over and I looked down and it looked like a railroad tie laying on the bottom. And yeah, well that's how I found that one. But you'll see a lot of them. And in the summer when the water is really hot. We don't generally target them when the water attempts are way high, right, and uh, but they'll they'll they'll be kind of lethargic. They'll be up in shallow water, just kind of sunning. You can. You can boat up to them and poke them with your rod and they'll swim off, but they won't eat. Then you know they're not they're not catchable. They're just not in that kind of pattern. I was kind of Uh. I went fishing with Matt Elliott from bench Man. You have to like, but he's a yeah, yeah. He served Matt Elliott his uh first ever bass sandwich. Oh nice, A hobby what do you call it? An amateur competition bass fisherman who had never eating a small mouth sandwich. He had a little small tear rolling down his cheek. Oh no, yeah, he's just wiping that tuter sauce off and he didn't want his wife to realize that they were good. But some of those the rigs, you know, so I was super asking a bunch of questions, and I never get a fish with that stuff going through. She drop shot. That is exactly what I was going on. There are some rigs that these bass guys tie up that I just wouldn't fish with, purely for the fact because I'd be like, well, of horse, you're gonna catch fish with it? Like, of course that isn't that the goal? Yeah, but if if there's a foregone conclusion, I'm just not that into it. Musty things super appealing because but the drop shot thing, I'm like, well, when years ago when I started hearing I do want to get back to what we're talking about. But years ago, when I started hearing people say drop shotting, I was picturing I don't know what else picturing. I was pictured some I just heard it. I thought it must be some elaborate right, eighteen knots and you know, crazy things running off here and there or whatever. And then when I saw them, like, that's what drop shotting is. But my man, does that work good? Oh my god? How can it not? I mean, I guess that's yeah, But yeah, I guess I would skew more towards the musky side of things because I want want experience, you want casts. Yeah, that's it's not for everyone, So that it is. You have to enjoy the journey and everything else around it, just like it's a difference between gun hunting and bow hunting. You know, the success rates not that high, but you still do it because you're you're you're passionate about it and it's not always about that kill. It's about the big picture and being outdoors gets me more days in the woods. So in uh, in outdoor TV and hunting TV, are there lines that cannot be crossed? Surely if a producer turned into thing where he was hunting panda bears, you guys would be like, you know what, um, I'm not gonna be running in that episode. We have we have very strict guidelines and we have a quality control team that that enforces those and the producers are aware of those. If you're an independent producer, you don't want to spend thousands of dollars on something that's not going to make it to air. So so it's pretty buttoned up, I would say, but yeah, we have we have lines, you know, we we have we want to protect the sport, and so there's things in their safety issues. You know, we don't want to show things that are unethical or unsafe. We don't allow blue sky shots. So you enforce ethics, yes, like beyond law, yes, we I mean, our our guidelines say you need to follow the laws, and then you also need to follow up some of the general safety. It's not a you know, obviously anything that's illegal is is not allowed on you know, you have to follow all game laws and and and and if there's violations, we are very strict and how we enforce those. Talk about some of the things that have happened recently with hosts getting in uh, with hosts getting in the hot water. I can think of three off top of my head. Yeah, well, in the in the last three, yeah, I mean, our actions were pretty swift and pretty consistent. We've do you mind laying out the story of what happened, Um, and just broad brushstrokes in um like in the case of Chris Brackett for Fear No Evil. UM, Yeah, you know it's uh. First of all, I told you that, you know, I have a lot of respect for the people that I work with in these producers, and Chris was one of them. Because Chris started with nothing. He was a postman, and he had a dream and he had a passion and he I saw a video that Chris sent to Pat Reeve and it was essentially a demo and said, hey, Pat, I love what you do at Hunter specially I want to get into this space. And you know, so to see what happened was disappointing in a couple of because the incident that happened in Indiana happened it's like five years ago now a right, so that the where where he shot two dear um and you know, you put himself had ta had a take for one shot one, you know, and there's there's questions around that too because he had a camera guy with him and and people don't know the whole story. You know, they did tag the first dear that that that he shot, and you know, so there's there's nothing there, there's no really don't know the details of the story. I'm not I'm not like being coy. Yeah, I really don't know the details of the story. And what what the only thing people know is from what they saw in the video is that, you know, a deer came out and he shot the deer, and then another one came out and he shot that one, and you know, and he says he wasn't sure he shot this first one, and there's and it's all speculation on that. So so yes, you know, to take you through that. So when I heard I saw the video and that, you know, I was disappointed. I mean, you know, disappointed on a human level. And I was. I was you know, Chris Head has evolved and had already evolved. He's a changed man from what he was four years ago. And people think that, you know, he went through this and then found God, and Chris was actually had had already transformed his faith life. But he's human. We're all human. So he made a mistake. And then another video comes up about him, you know, be rating a camera guy and it's like I've I've been there before. I've never never be rated a camera guy like that. But you know, Chris put a lot of pressure on himself back four years ago when he made that second shot to try to produce something, you know, to and and he made a mistake and he's paid a pretty significant price for it. I mean, he we removed that we find out about it, you know there um um, there's some questions that we had to do a little bit of research and you know, and talk to Chris and talked to others about it, but we pulled the show immediately. Decision No, it's you know, we have guidelines. It was tough on a human level because you know, I care for my producers, I care for Chris, and I've felt bad for him, and I don't want to you know, I don't want to pull the rug out. This is his career, this is what he's built up. But um so um yeah. And then you know, ultimately, yeah, with the show just you know, he lost some sponsored support. And and Chris is a guy. He's he's a he's a he's got a great heart. You know, I've had him at my home with my kids and he's great with my kids and that, and he made a mistake and it and it cost him. I think it costs more than than it probably should have. But if then if he was a private individual, yeah, oh yeah, absolutely private individual, this would have been. First of all, he's he's never been charged with anything, so he he just lost his career. He didn't, he doesn't get a ticket. He hasn't. There's nothing has become of it, and nothing probably will other than he's lost his livelihood as a TV host. And it's interested in the three cases that I'm thinking of, which, uh, the three cases I'm thinking of where we're hunting show personality has been in trouble, have been in trouble around these issues of shooting something and then shooting something else. I think the thing you hear about it, I think you hear about the people fear is people are like, oh, being in that situation where you're this you know, hunting celebrity, which is a term people hate. Right, There's this hunting celebrity and they're under such pressure to um, they're under such pressure to like get that big buck in order to become more famous, that they're putting these situations where they have poor judgment because they're trying to service business, right, which would sort of imply that that violations and getting in trouble is sort of just like only happens in out door TV, which we all know that it certainly doesn't. And there's a lot of guys are getting a lot of trouble all the time who are not putting it out. But it's the thing I think that people feel. Another thing I think people feel from the other side is um people like to make examples of people, you know, so when someone gets in trouble for something like that, you know, especially who's in the public eye they get in troubled or something like that, it gets quickly amplified where people are very ready. And and chriss As he had a polarizing brand. You loved him or you didn't. You know, he had his catch line of buoya when you shoot a deer, very passionate about it. You either loved it or you didn't. And uh, for every viewer feedback, I got people saying they didn't like Chris Brackett, I got ten that said they loved him. You know, so because people found a defensive that kind of like like they just didn't like, you know, they didn't want they didn't connect with them. And so so that you know, you get the keyboard warriors, and you know they they'll go off on him. So so when that incident happened, it essentially made all of his detractors right. They kept and they came out and and I would tell you it, um, it was disappointing. I love this industry. I love the hunting industry, the fishing industry and that, but we are fast to consume each other when something like that happens. And and there were people that seemed to take pleasure out of taking him down, and that was heartbreaking. I was looking at the thing the other day involved in an acquaintance of mine where something no one knows, something may or may not have happened. I didn't really looked into it yet, but I've heard not a television person, just a person that maybe got sideways with law a little bit. And man, there's a lot of people rooting that he did, hoping that he did within the industry, like just people aware, just like the the cannibalization. And I think that, but I think in these case, in some of these cases where it would be like it'd be interesting because there's this other case. Are you will are you willing to talk about an instance that involves an individual whose initials are t v UM on on our network. Um, I don't know who it is, right, Oh yeah, we talk about Sorry, I thought you were talking currents. So that's a old one. But it's just an interesting case study, right in something that winds up. Let's just talk in general terms because I don't know what my limitations out in that situation. So in general terms, it was an someone made, a person made an accident, Okay, a person had a what I from having done a lot of hunting, a thing that I regard to be something that could happen to anyone, meaning you, let's just set different situations where you see a deer, there's a buck standing there, and you shoot, but you go over there's two bucks or two dear, because there's one behind it that you were bedded down up a little rise that you were unaware of. That could happen to anyone, right, Or a situation being that here's a buck, you shoot, the buck goes down. Also in the buck stands back up again, doing the right thing to shoot again, but you go over in his two bucks. Now, in those cases, even if you are a hunting celebrity, I think in those cases, were you to self report r I Field. You probably wouldn't lose your show. No, you probably wouldn't get skewered. You might even get rewarded is really the wrong term. But people might recognize the step you took right and decide not to skier you and try to destroy you. We've had positive cases where that happened. You know, Pigman had an incident in in Oklahoma. Um. You know, first of game laws are complicated, right, and I think he was in an area, UM, I don't remember the specifics, but you know he handed up I think shooting a hand turkey or something, and and he wasn't in a unit. He had to take hit. He had everything, he thought he had everything right, and he didn't. He owned up to it. He paid a small fine. It was it was an honest mistake. Whereas you know, in some of these cases you're talking about, the cover up is always worse than worse than the crime. And it's something I learned. You know, I've never had an inner in any kind of like that with with a warden, but filming wardens for six or seven years, you always gotta you gotta the The only answer is to come clean fast and completely. And that's your because these wardens are not out to get you. People make mistakes, they have a lot of latitude and what they can do. But if they know that you're being deceptive, You're You're done. There's no more sympathy. I mean you will, you will get whatever it is that you and they'll and the time they figure it out. So in some of these cases, um, um, yeah, you just have to own up to it because no, absolutely people make mistakes. But yes, if it's a case where you blatantly disregarded the law and wasted gain, you know that that's going to have deep and immediate ramificing. And that's what really seems like. Um, that's really seems like lead people into a very troubled path is the cover up. And and in that situation, you're making this kind of like quick decision. You're like, the was a chance if I just hide this right, covered up, there's a chance that nothing happens. The man is that seductive. But there's also the chance that everything that the world as I know it could end right. And by going the route of being like Mr Game warden, I made a mistake, there's gonna be there. There will be ramification, but total annihilation of oneself isn't probably in the mix. Now we have hun TV. Kurt Wells was in Canada years ago and I think a llegal moose was like fifty and he shot a moose and it was like forty nine and three quarters. I mean, you can't, you can't. And it was a good shot. I think it was a bowshot. He was like forty yards or something. And he self reported and um and paid a fine. It's an US mistake. It was, you know, he and the and the guide they judged it to be a legal ball and it wasn't same deal. You know, he could have he could have hid that, but no, he you know, did the right thing. Self reported, made that part of the story. He lost the trophy. I just I think it's made part of the story. Yeah, that's great. It was the story. You know, we gotta, we gotta. That's gotta be the story. We gotta. The story has to be do the right thing. And we actually in our guidelines, you know, you have to follow the law, but we we want to hold our host to a higher standard because we are being watched by everybody, and so you know, we always advised people don't don't you know, you know the rules, you need to follow them. You need to have license, you need to wear blaze orange. Where's blaze orange? Because right now law enforcement watches outdoor TV and they look for violations. We've had cases of that as well. We had award tell us what state we're in. We're The guy said, uh, you know, I don't need to be out of the field anymore. I got Facebook. Yeah I don't, so you know I was in Kentucky all right. The wardens said that Game Wars just you know, I'm sure partially joking, was like, I don't need to drive around anymore. I got Facebook. I had a uh you know Oregon. Uh, state troopers or game wardens, and some are supposed to be more game wardens than state troopers. But at a state trooper in eastern Oregon basically say that, Um, that's that's how he's made all all of his recent bus We're all through social media well and also just going to the local bar, I mean Montana. The wardens, they are successful. The most successful wardens are have very good local networks, and so because they know they've got fourner square miles are covering, they can't be everywhere, but they're sure here a lot because most guys who are poaching go to the bar and talk about it, and they're competitive to ye, and they have they have their own territories. That's what this guy was saying. And so a lot of the information that they get would be from other poachers being like, yeah, hey, I found this buck on the side of the road with the ted cut off. You're gonna do something about it. Got a pretty good, pretty good idea who it is. Yeah, it's like drug dealer shooting drug dealers exactly. Uh. I had another on that same trip, I think, Yeah, it's the same trip where the guy was saying, I don't need it, I have Facebook. Another thing that he's Another thing that he said to me that I thought was interesting is he doesn't like suppressors now um, and his argument against suppressors is the gun shot is a very important tool for him. And he was saying, as it gets when he's bow hunting and it starts getting close to rifle season, he can't finish a night in his tree stand because and he's like something about that, something about that shot, and he's done out was tree stand singing over and that you know, getting his truck going on that direction and uh, and that was his like criticism of suppressors. Yeah, I found it suppressing. It's I like it. You know, I followed a love and so I'm not trying to They're great, Yeah, they're great, but I never looked at it from them. I look at it from the perspective of quiet. Yeah, but he looked at it from perspective of he wants to know what's going on on the and you know they you can still hear them, but yes, you can't hear it like a like a right. It was. Yeah, it was the thing that I had. It was the thing I had considered when when weighing it in like all these different states and sort of like weighing what the relationship will be to two people being to use suppressors. Um. You know, I was in Scotland one time. They were shocked. They were shocked you'd be allowed to not use a suppressor. Yeah, because of what does the people's years. I was like, man, you guys use suppressors like you guys don't. It's very different now, um, free content, man, people go on YouTube watch hunting videos all day long and never pay for anything. What's the right what's that spell? Like, what's that when you look into your crystal ball? Um, what are the business challenges there? Or the or what do the what does it mean for the consumer? Yeah, I think there's room for for all of it. I think it's a different product. You know, I consume on my mobile device. I consume short videos whether they're you know, Facebook or YouTube or what have you. But it's very different than the television that I consume, whether it's hunting or not. So every producer you work with does short form content, right, Um, it depends. You know. We we went through this evolution where everybody had to invest in high definition equipment, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollar gear of gear because the idea was we're all going to have nine, you know, flat screens. And now viewers don't seem to care that much. They'll watch crappy video from a cell phone on a cell phone and and it's adequate. So I think that's interesting. So what year was it? When do you remember the timeline of one? Yeah, it was well, I can't remember where it was two thousand eight, two thousand seven to ten years ago. You know, the evolution people started moving towards HD you know, networks weren't carrying channels in HD. Now everything is pretty much an HD um. But the concept of free, I think free ultimately will um hurt the industry because if if it's not valuable, if the it will hurt on the high end of quality. Because if I'm Jim Shocky and people don't don't appreciate the quality that I'm delivering of my TV show because they can watch something for free on YouTube, then advertisers aren't going to support it, and then Jim's just not going to do it. So I think free content um free on the internet has has a has a place, but it's also a very crowded marketplace. Our networks are this are a platform where we have viewers who are trained to turn on the hunting channel they call it. They just they just turn it on and they watch hunting. Whereas if I go to YouTube, you know, first of all, you have to find the right and you can you can narrow it down, you can search and do that, but you find that you sift through a lot of a lot of garbage to find some of the golds, and and it's and it's very I think it'll be very hard. Um. It would be very hard. I've got a son who's got a YouTube channel, right, he's got nineteen followers. How do you, as a as an aspiring outdoor talent build an audience? I mean, television is is still by far the best way to reach a mass. I look at Facebook recently had their issue with UM privacy and uh, you know the data the data issue they had and what they're spending. I've heard at one point it was a million dollars a day on linear television advertising to regain the trust of their user. They have this platform, UM, but they go to linear television to reach that audience. The Super Bowl last year, did you see who the presenting sponsor of the Super Bowl was? YouTube? YouTube? Bread so YouTube. Yeah, so they were the presenting sponsor of the SUPERO they see some value on linear television, I think, you know, I think for any any brand to say there's not value linear television is is UM. I think that's a temporary position. We're already starting to see where digital um. The good news is for an advertiser or brand, there are more and good digital options to get a message out and connect with people. The bad news is it's still not as good as TV, and you need, you need all of it. And the best the best brands have digital, they have print, they have radio, they have billboards, they have TV. You know, we don't always have the luxury in our space to have that that whole breath. But TV by far still delivers the other thing. It delivers. It delivers volume and quality and low risk. Because I might if I want to, if I have a product and I want to advertise, do a digital ad. I don't know where that adds appearing. I don't know if you know if it's appearing on appropriate sites or how that brand is, how my brand is being associated with that unless you know if if you're advertising on our digital platforms where if you're you know, if you have a holster, you know what's appearing on guns and ammos, Facebook or or website. So um, I read an article it was the the national advertising market in in all of television is driven by like two brands like Coca Cola and Unilever brands and all that. So and it's there's there's very little fraud. I mean, you buy advertising, you measure the results, you know how much you're paying, and and it's good and advertising works. We know advertising works, and in digital there are tens of thousands of people UM and and the results are are are highly suspicious, so there's no there's no magic. Yet the allure of digital and free is is strong because it's it's in theory cheaper. I just don't think it's as effective. And some of those big brands are going back to TV because it's more expensive, but it's it's it works and it still works. I think that there's just room for a lot of different things. And I think even if you look within like you know our own organization that I'm involved in, UM, well put it like this. I like to eat very well prepared, elaborate meals sometimes and I also sometimes eat a gas station hot dog, particularly when I was in high school in college. Right, I don't be like man now that gas station hot dogs have come out, UM, I no longer want to eat an elaborate, well prepared meal because it's just different. And so in doing UM, in doing and making content, I look at an episode like like I look at a Mediator episode, it's twenty two minutes where this is not an exaggeration. Every second was look fought over, every second of it, okay, and it requires a certain amount of money to do that. That's like its own thing. Um. I also like a funny cell phone video, right, But they're just very different. And I think right now I'm watching ken Burns is Vietnam series. It takes a lot to put that together, right, It can't be that that that free. Like as great as for YouTube content is, it's just I would hate to live in a world where somehow the pot we were starved of the polished stuff. But I don't think we will become starved of the polished stuff. But I think people keep trying to like force this idea or hoping there's this idea that it's just one version. The polished version will be abandoned and short of the guerrilla version, or the gorilla version will be abandoned and short of the polished version. It's like there's room for all of it. Yeah, And looking ahead, there's a lot of apprehension, you know, about where it's coming from. When when I started out in my career, I was writing for glossy magazines you know, um, which, by the way, I have been dead for over ten years. They were dying when I started. We have seventeen magazines that are that thrive. They're still doing quite well, and they've been they've been declaring that death and and a lot has changed there. I mean I remember having a ten tho dollar travel budget to do a magazine story. Like a lot of that stuffs changed and so came out of magazines and I went into traditional doing traditional books. Okay, and um, there's still a thriving book business. But then people declared that with Amazon, the traditional book you know, the author publisher relationship is no more. That's all gonna die. And I used to live with constant apprehension and fear about the future. But then at those times, they didn't even come up with a podcast yet, right, I didn't know about what I don't know what a podcast podcast was until I went on one. I've just gotten to the point now, after a long time of making things, Um, I've just gotten to the point now where I don't have I've kind of like worked through the fears and now it's become more of a curiosity about huh. I do wonder how all this is sort out, But I do maintain this idea that there will continue to be and I hope and push for it, there will continue to be ways to fund um ways to fund the really like not great in a way that I not mean great in the way that you're passing a value judgment other stuff, but ways to fund very polished, relatively expensive pieces of content that just to my eye really shine. Right. Well, look at TV or programming outside of you know, our industry, right, it's like we're all still whether you're not even if you're not paying for cable anymore, you're paying for Netflix to like watch highly produced I've yet to someone even tell me about like, oh yeah, go check out that new show on YouTube. Like it just hasn't happened yet. So because there's there's like people hard to do it for free, right, Well, one thing you'll see in all those cases and you look at you know, auto by Tel was going to kill the car dealers and all you know, um, you know, you know, the internet was going to kill print and and it and it definitely changed. It's it's gone through painful process. But all of these businesses had to adapt. And so if you don't adapt to this new technology as a network, if we didn't, if we weren't adapting, yeah we would, we would lose some relevance. But we are adapting. You look at Comcast and UH Dish Direct Tv. They are independently. Each one of them is investing over a billion dollars in products and services and the customer experience to make TV better. I used my wife as an example. She's not a big fan of pain our our cable bill, but we have Exfinity and we have the Axfinity remote that she talks to now and it's changed the way that she she can now. You know, for her, four under channels was just too much. Now she can through the remote get what she wants when she wants it. Video on demand, I think is becoming more more accessible where you don't have to, you know, dive in and search. If I want to watch meat Eater, I say meat Eater, and there's it's If it's on demand, it's available. UM. So television is evolving and the technology is driving it. And as a network, you were committed to being on every device, UH with all of our content wherever you want it. But and the whole, the whole cord cutting, and there's absolutely been a reduction, but we're still at I think around ninety million paid UM cable and satellite homes in the US, which is about what it was ten years ago, so it's off from its peak, but there's still a hundred million people, um. And we all have family, extended family. You know, people in your family who still like my mom uch of Jeopardy every day that you can, you know, and she's that's what that's what she will always do. UM. So there's people still consuming it. There's also a lot of people who have cut the cord and then they start cobbling their own there. So they do Netflix and they do ESPN, and they want Fox News and they want some others and all of a sudden, instead of paying a hundred and fifty bucks a month, they're paying a hundred twenty or a hundred and they're not and they're missing something out. So there's chord returners. There's people that are coming back. There's people moving to skinny bundles like we're on Sling and HD for Outdoor Sportsman and World Fishing Network's thirty four dollars a month. Uh. And their their video on demand is fantastic. You know, you can you can watch multiple episodes, not just the current one, and you don't have to watch it at the appointed time. So it's it's evolving, and I agree. I think you know you still that that challenge we have as a network and most people don't under don't understand this because you don't really care. But um, the people making decisions is about caring hunting, shooting, and fishing programming, whether it's our network or not, are not into the sport right, They don't. They don't generally care about hunting, shooting, or fish and they're mostly lawyers and accountants that we live. We live in a passion based industry, but they're not. They don't share it there in the numbers business. And so you know, we have to fight um to maintain our distribution and we want to try to grow it because we have great content. We want to get it out there. UM, but it's it's an uphill battle. If we had ninety million homes in Outdoor Outdoor Channel stead of thirty five million, we could be like History Channel and we could generate the ad dollars because just when you have that number, that that sure number of homes, your ratings will go up, you can sell more advertising, you get more dollars in there, and then you can invest in that content. So it's kind of a catch twenty two, where we have thirty five million subscribers for Outdoor Channel UM and because of that we don't have UM we we don't generate enough AD dollars to buy all the con tent. So that's how that time by kind of came full circle back to that time by mode. Do you feel that hunters like, how far behind in the technology thing? How far behind our hunters generally? I mean they gotta be lagging a little bit right behind like your average American and sort of adoption of new technologies and use of new technologies. Or do you feel that they just keep right and step because like they kind they're almost by definition a little bit of anachronistic, right, Well, our audiences tend to be older anyhow, Like you know, average ages probably in the in the late forties to mid fifties, and so that that's my age essentially. They you know, we are users of technology, but we're not drivers of the of it. So so our viewers are We're not really adopters, but some of them are. You know, we have our my Outdoor tv UM package which is uh just just are all the library of all of the old episodes, so you know that has excuse to them younger consumer. But it's also cheaper too, so it's part of someone skinny bundle for like ten bucks a month. Um, do you guys premier people's new episodes on my Outdoor Tv. There's something that we do, but for now it's it's mostly We do have some originals that we're starting to run on my Outdoor TV, but it's mostly UM library shows. And interestingly enough, and you think about your most passionate fans and you're you're a bad example actually, because I think there's people to do a lot of binge watching on yours. But like for Lee and Tiffany the Crush, it's a great hunting show, very popular, one of the best shows on the network for a long long time, and they're but they're fans don't watch, you know, they do twenty new episodes a year. Their fans don't watch every single episode, so because that's just not the nature of TV, Like if they only watch it when they're participating, sort of only watching September October, they may only catch three or four episodes a year out of twenty. So we have a hundred and fifty episodes of The Rush in our library, and chances are even there their best fans have only seen ten of their libraries. So people say, well, yeah, it's it's old shows. Well, these shows are evergreen. I mean it doesn't you know, sometimes the technology changes a little bit and maybe their sponsors change a little bit. But you know, doing a you know, shooting a mule deer with a bow from the ground is the same today as it was twelve years ago. And um, you know, so it's still it's evergreen content and we're finding there's there's a good demand for it and there there again you know, people ask why isn't it free, Well, because it's worth money and these producers have paid to produce it. So we're licensing libraries from producers and offering it to consumers. So we're packaging it for them in my outdoor TV. And you know, just like everything everyone, everything is moving digital. Well you know, you've learned, as you said, to kind of avoid the fear and that everything's not moving any way any one direction, definitively. But everything is evolving and we're evolving. It's just for me, it's been um to one. When you hear about the death of something, I now think, wow, probably not. And then when new things come in. I just become interested, you know, in the new things, and then less like like I said, Man, I've been being told about I'm doing a mega I'm doing a magazine piece for Outside right now. Um and I sold my first story outside of magazine in two thousand and I was hearing about that the end of that, I gotta, I gotta hardcover cookbook with Random House coming out, speakling grout Random and in printing Random House coming out this November. I've been hearing about how that's all calling it quits for my entire career, you know, in newspapers, and I know my former boss wrote for a newspaper for forty years, and you know he likes the ink on his hands Sunday Sunday morning reading paper. So you know over there that that that maybe someday going away. But the newspapers and they've all, they've all, they've all changed. I mean they're there. You could argue that they were maybe too fat, magazines were too fat and sort of things. You just have to adjust, but you can adjust and you can survive. And um, the content is still good. And I think the bottom line is whether it's long form TV or short form or you know, print and that the content is is uh, what's valuable. Yeah, it ones of being kind of like a like a gradual just a gradual evolution of things, you know, new things coming up. But remember, like what we're doing right now, right this didn't exist. This didn't at a time, this didn't exist. And now it's the thing that just you know, it's growing beyond early adopter phase and it's becoming a thing that's like part of the American life. So I read an article about um some YouTubers who were um I got and I don't remember what his what his thing was to be like, had five point four million subscribers to his channel. It wasn't in the outdoor space. It was something and you know, for years that based just grew and grew and grew, and now those guys are seeing declines. There seems to be that we think of Internet as being limitless, but there's only twenty four hours in a day. There's only so much time you can do anything, whether it's watch TV or surf the web or do what. So there's I think there's a natural max and you know, and it's possible in this hunting space, we've kind of that's that's part of where when you talk about all this content that's readily available, there's this there's this too much that no one's going to win, you know, like it is at the risk of some of the higher quality content going away, because if I'm a brand and I'm just going to support people doing free content for product, and that that high end is going to go away. But it seems to be that, Um, it's not. It's not infinite. There's a there's a there's a natural cap and like in um in in like newspapers and that I think maybe they push that limit. Well, now his technology is evolved, it's it's had to scale back, so we're that's probably where we're at in TV as well. Cal just thinking about fishing, yeah, I mean all sorts of stuff. Yeah, about giant moss keys, Oh, any time when the water is a good time. Yeah. Um, but do you do you have any any rapper uppers concluders, Yeah, you know, just I mean thinking about all the stuff that um was talked about here today. You know, I think you're exactly right. You know, there's plenty of content out there, Um that speaking match. Sorry, Mitch, you are exactly right that there's plenty of content out there that I don't, I do not associate with and I and um, and there's something I do and you know, my hope is that all the content out there is at least connecting. The real benefit is like connecting folks that don't have the amount of access to the outdoor space that we all do, that they're connecting to it, and they're they're gonna have some hold that land and the outdoors in general in high enough regard to want to see it continue. That would be my my best case scenario. And UM, but you know, I think there's the media would inspire advocacy. Yeah, and uh, at least get people to care enough to you don't want to make sure it exists, even if they're not out playing around in Um. You know. But but you know, I think there's some content out there too that UM your your example of you know it, I may not relate it to it, but there's a lot of folks out there who do. Like we for every negative email, we get ten positive ones. And UM, I think there's some content out there that can be used to sway that of the public that doesn't haunt towards you know, a negative opinion on hunt and there's content out there that can in the positive way. Right For for me, that's an argument for our networks and our guidelines because we are controlling that, whereas on YouTube you can put I saw something on YouTube a guy shot a dough with a fifty fifty b MG fifty col like sniper rifle and and in fact he missed the dough, but the doe's head exploded from the concussion of like just the whatever, the bullet passing over its head. It's like that as he thought that was pretty cool. He thought that was worthy of posting that. Wouldn't you know obviously never make air on our network, and none of us would advocate advocate doing that. But you know, it's a free society, so that you you'll have some that on on the YouTube, where whereas we have we do control that. And um but I mean even on O. S G stuff, you know that. I mean I've seen, uh, you know things again that I just don't associate with. And and I'm hunting fishing, dude, And if I don't associate with the chances are the non hunters probably are going to be like probably even question if it's legal, if it's right, you know, so, um, you know, net net not knowing for sure. I just hope that at the end of the day there's we're gaining and we're not not losing. Yeah, there's not much a concluder, just a thought digging though. I like it's thought. It's provocative. My and my my hope in being on here was to help you understand that we are looking out for that and we try and we're you know, we're not perfect, but we we have I think a pretty good process and a pretty good team in place to try to make or that we're doing that and and and keep getting better because I think the net of the net is hunting television can really help us and can help expand the sport and help people and help make people better Hunters enjoy it more, you know, want to participate more in it when it's done right, and as a network, we take that responsibility very seriously. That's good to hear. Yeah, we premiered I don't know Man nineties some episodes of mediat on Sportsman Channel over a long period of time, and I have to tell you, I had you talked about, you know that crossing that line. I somebody watched your Monkey Brain episode We Ate the Monkey Brain, and leg, I thought you didn't eat a brain those boys. That's Indiana Jones. No, I mean there was there was no eight must eight monkeys, right. So I got a call from a producer and that producer said, I just watched Steve Rannella eat a monkey on Sportsman Channel, So I'm pretty sure I can do whatever I want to now. It's but I would come in and I would come in and it winds up being a very different situation. Not different, but it's like it's, uh, you're in another country traveling with indigenous people's who have lived there for thousands of years, carrying on a traditional life practice of theirs, and you witness them go and kill a monkey, which they do it would be doing in the absence of a camera, and you're present for that, and then they prepare the monkey and you're served some monkey and you eat the monkey with them, and um, It's like someone could come and say you ate a monkey, or you come and be like, well, let's look at the context in which it was done. But sure, sure, man, Um, it wasn't lost on me that that is risk as the word wasn't lost on me that it's like a potentially hot issue. But if the context frat boys being like hey, I'll bet you a buck to shooting monkeys out of a zoo, It's like it's just very different, right, It's just different. So yeah, you're if you if you go by the test. And this is the thing I hear from people all the time, where like, well, what if someone just drops in, what are they gonna see? I'm like, Okay, you know, if you're the kind of person that just drops in and plucks seconds out of its broader context, you're more likely to find things that are upsetting to you. Then if you're the kind of person who comes in and takes those seconds and then sets them in their proper place, which is why in our guy Inline we talk about um, if you know you can hunt lions, you know lion it's legal, but we always recommend you you need to tell the story. You need to tell the conservation story or elephants or things like because it's it's controversial, and yes, if you take if you take a sliver of that content, you can make it look really really bad when in the in the big picture, we had um. Jenna Waller from skull bound on sports from Jenneal was getting harassed about a show she did. She and she took it was some some sort of um um antelope in Africa. Her whole episode was about the preservation of hyenas. If you watch that, I mean, yes, they hunted, they hunted planes game and she shot some sort of like and like Paula, I think it was um. But the whole they whoever complained about it, and they were anti hunters and as it's probably my concluder that I want to talk about um. You know, they ignore all the good and they just focus on that one little sliver. And uh, I think one of one of my concluders is that we are our sport is controversial to many people or just and you know the Cecil the lion incident and that I think that moved a lot of people off of neutral maybe towards the negatives. And you know, as sportsmen, we have a huge responsibility to to you know, I don't you're not gonna you're not gonna you know, we're not going to um um engage with Peta and convince them that what we're doing is right. But we do need to make sure that when someone does drop in what they see on our networks is they might not participate in it, but they should think that. Well, yeah, I understand that. And we're working on our conservation, some conservation initiatives. A lot of it is you know, statistics show that if you know, hunting for food is highly acceptable, like seventy of the general public accepts hunting for food, but hunting for trophies and using word like trophy hunting, it's like and it's it's such just as it's a goofy sebmantics, right, it's so My my concluder is, um, I've seen in those cases and in in the cases of you know, where the producers had issues. Um, we tend to do a lot of infighting and like the anti hunters, they don't need to engage with us because in many cases we're we're our own worst enemy in those situations. And and so as a network, we want to try to help be a positive force and bring people together and and educate people about our passion and the good things about hunting. And and you know, it's it's not just the kill. And it's another thing I'll say in our guidelines. You know, we don't say that you need to shoot big animals or you need to In fact, we never say that a two hundred inchdeer on camera doesn't rate any better than a hundred and thirty inchineer that like stand pots shoots. No, it doesn't. It doesn't drive ratings. I think advertisers want that because they want their products to be associated with extra successful exactly. But but then we're we're not focused on that. We want the more of the authentic experience in that so, um, you know, we just want it would be nice. Uh. Part of my goal and behind or is to help people understand that we are actively trying to expand hunting and put our best foot forward and put the best content on TV that we can so that we we've all got kids, we want them to be able to participate at the same level we are. And um, part of that is being able to get our message out and it comes with a certain amount of risk. Yeah. On that note, you have a pulse son, like what's going on in the media and talking about do you guys have an idea of like how that engages with the stuff that you're putting out there, like where you sometimes reach them or how they find you or how you're trying to reach them in terms like reach them with just However, like you're saying, like if that person drops in right and just somehow it's randomly on Sportsman's Channel, how does that happen? Do you guys know what that looks like? Or do you guys know other channels or other avenues that somehow engages you you And yeah, I mean in terms of like tactics and how to draw viewers to our networks and that you know, we'll like we do our own advertising promotion. Yeah, you mentioned like Duck Dynasty, right, that brings right, right, so we want to we we it's very expensive, as you know, to launch a show and to market it properly, and in fact, the economies of scale in our industries, you can't spend thirty million dollars on on marketing a series. Like if you did a movie, you know they'll they'll spend thirty million dollars to market that. So that's why we look at a Duck Dynasty who has this established brand to come in. So yes, that was a big part of it and and it worked, and same with the Deadliest Catch. We also do movies on Outdoor Channel and Friday nights Saturday nights. People like to watch movies, so we do the movie. But if you watch a movie on Outdoor Channel, you'll see there's trivia. We use our hosts to actually have outdoor trivia. We're working on some other things. We want to bring in a new viewer and let them know that this is what we're about. We have other really cool contents. So you may have found us via the movie or found us via Deadly as Catch, but look at everything else that's around. Got it good yet? I answered my question? Um, but you did. In your notes and we were emailing, you mentioned being an advocate for you know, family hunting and whatnot. And earlier we talked about how we're thinking that. You know, it's debatable, right, but what hunter numbers are doing right now? What what's going on with with you guys that like or what do you see even if it's not you guys, but what do you see? What do you feel like it's working the best to bring on new hunters? Do you kind of want to ask why you're not seeing more squirrel hunting? Is that? Yeah? Yeah, the small game versus the big No, it's not my question, Okay, Um, we donting. Jackie Bushman has a squirl hunting competition every year. Really yeah airgun it's an airgun company into that. Yeah, But you know what I mean, Like, there's probably a lot of people who do a lot of different things to bring in war hunters to grow the sport, and you probably get to kind of see all that is. There is something you can point out that you say, man, that seems to really be working. Well, you know, we do. We use all of our social media channels and all of our print and digital channels to put the best foot forward for hunting and and and bringing kids hunting and that in our CEO, he's he advocates to producers to push more of that in your show, but by showing images and UM and and really airing hunts that help people understand how they can participate. I have had an interesting conversation with a guy and I won't say what state he is from because I don't want to. I don't want to blow his cover. But we were talking about hunting numbers and using licenses as a measure for participation and UM what he explained what's UM. Through contacts with Warden's they said in like major Metro All's in areas upwards of anglers don't buy a license. It's just they just don't write. So, but those anglers are buying bait, and they're buying rods and reels and tackle, and they're participating. They're just not buying a leisure So because of that, they felt in this state because he worked with the DNR and it wasn't Montana, it wasn't Michigan, just you know, but they felt that narrowed down to exactly, I don't want to get him in trouble. They so the numbers of anglers is underreported. Hunting on the other side of the coin, there are like twenty seven states that are one buck only, but you can party hunt. So guys are buying tags for their wives, their daughter or their mother so they can have extra buck tags in in their um, in their in their camp essentially. But those women aren't participating necessarily obviously some of them are. But so they're not buying bows, they're not. That's that's these guys will look doing research on why I more people aren't buying crossbows and compombos, is what they were researching, and that was part of it. It was the women are not actually, and and so we say, well, look at look at the number of women who are buying licenses, Well, not a hunter. I'm not saying that it's it's like, aren't participating. I know there are more women participating in hunting than previously, but it's they think it's overstated because of that, And and the states don't want to do anything about it because they might lose upwards of five thousand dollars in license sales if they change the rules, and then they lose federal matching funds, so they're kind of the kind of allowed. So it's tough to say, oh, you know there's only ten million hunters, Well maybe there is, or maybe maybe there's not, or you know, it's it's but we but we know it's not as it's not as acceptable now. And like with with social media and some of the other just communication tools that are available that the Cecil the Lione thing couldn't have happened fifteen years ago because that campaign would not have been able to be sustained by the anti hunters for thirty days. Yeah, the distribution channel wasn't there there right, So now so it's and you couldn't you couldn't have popularized the image. I mean, we've always had images that have come and we've always had images that have come and and you know, and really captured the American imagination and why they distributed and very impactful. But it just happens in lightning speed, and it happens more often, right, Yeah, got anything else you want to add? You honest, No, that does it for me. You're liking them golf shirts, man, when you're traveling, this is my only one. Makes you feel like you're makes you feel like you're you're cool and comfortable and but still professional that you're is that is that you're feeling exactly? I can't Did you get attacked by a bear or something? Got it got claw marks on it? It does look like that doesn't When when it happened, I was thinking that, look at that got scratched up. I have bear, But I was running through the forests. This new if you're not extreme enough, there's this new thing I came up with called game trail running. So if just trail running is not cool enough, if you can do game trail running or more extreme than that, is no trail running. So when the game trail disappears, just keep running off through the woods. At this moment, I actually wasn't running. I was probably just like hiking uphill, um heaving, trying to get my breath back. And yeah, I stepped on a log that had no more log left in it and just gave out and scratched up my leg. It would have been cooler if you said, yeah, I got attacked by it while running. I have one out random. I have one golf shirt that I just wore the other day for my tenth wedding anniversary. Um, and I've had that one golf shirt for forever, and it's like, if something special happens during the warm months, I wear that golf shirt and uh, it's got a lot of holes in it. Now, that's why I'm that's kind of why I'm curious in your going about your golf shirt. Moth got or just just time funny time time destroys all. I brought you guys golf shirts. That's a that's a gift. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not even lying. When I hit my when I hit my twentieth anniversary, I'm putting that bad boy golf shirt. I always called him polo shirts because I think like everybody when we were a kid. When I see a shirt like, to be frank, when I see a shirt like that, I think that that person likes the golf polo shirt, that's what because it used to like, Yeah, we're a kid, it's a polo shirt if it's got long sleeps. Don't they were long sleeves playing for rugby shirt. You're right, that's a polo shirt. But polo shirt because it's like clean X is a tissue shirt because yeah, actually warm. I'll sort it out later, do my own research. You start this one out after she does have a trout on there and it's it's clearly Patagonia, So I don't. I don't think that's a golf shirt. I am gonna go have an ordered Arnold Palmer here after this podcast is over to quench my thirst. All right, Well, Mitch Petrie, Ah, thank you very much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me.