00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening past, he can't predict anything, all right. First, first thing I want to talk about has nothing to do with you, Joe Rogan, but you might appreciate it. No, it does have to do with you, and I'll get to that in a minute. A guy wrote in yesterday send us an email. Dude named Rusty down in Texas and he's he had was dicking around on our on our website and realized that there's a podcast. But he's in his tree stam bow Hunt and he said he's in a real shitty tree, like he calls it a tree of questionable integrity. So he's got earbuds in and turns the podcast on. In the intro, there's like the sun sound of Jamie knows it well, it was the sound of a tree falling, like you know, but he thinks the tree has fallen over the music, so he panics, realizes his tree is not falling, but then he's looking for the tree that is falling and is it going to fall on him before he realizes it's the podcast intros another there's two other things it had to me last night. I read that, and then uh, my brother calls me, and an old buddy of ours is at my brother's house. And this buddy of ours years ago, we were, you know, kind of based out of the same house doing some hunting. In one day, he leaves before it gets light out to go hunting, but then comes back and it's not even light out yet, but he's got a dead deer. And he said, oh, yeah, I was driving out and the guy in front of me hit a deer of this truck. So rather than going hunting, I just took that deer and tagged it and brought it home. Well, this guy this year is hunting and he's hunting in a field by a road and he's watching a buck, praying for the buck to come in bow range of them. At one point, the buck walks the other direction, steps out in the road and gets hit by a truck while he's watching it. So he ate that buck. Yeah, watched it happen. I like that some state agencies allow you to do that, to tag a deer that got hit by a car because you talked about it in the podcast. To like the the odds of someone purposely driving around trying to hit deer, like the odds of success are so low it's almost a ridiculous thing to consider, and the wrists are high. And I don't want to go into too much detail. I don't want to go into too much detail because I'm not sure the total you know, it's not legal method to take. Yeah, I don't know. That's why i'm That's why I'm not like talking in too great a detail about where it has happened and everything. So I'm not sure. I feel like he's got the moral right moral he's right when we used to we used to salvage road kill in Montana when it was illegal to salvage road kill because I was it was kind of like a civil disobedience. I always wanted to go to court and say, yes, your honor, I ate a dead deer I found on the side of the road. Um, guilty as charged, just you know, just to kind of make the point. But then in then they corrected it. In Michigan, you just called the cops. If you wanted a deer it was hit on the side of the road, you call the cops. They just come out and give you a permit for it. You know, you were talking about this earlier. But isn't it interesting that you see different states with like educated and understanding hunters that are a part of the community, versus like, say, what's going on in New Jersey with the bear hunt thing with the governor comes along and says, we're gonna start. New Jersey is the highest population of black bears per capita or per per acre in the state. Apparently it's overrun with black bears. I have friends who lived there, and they go, it's crazy, Like you'll see. You've seen the videos of them fight in neighborhoods, big four pound bears duking it out in the middle of the street and cars stopping and then knocking over trash cans, and they're everywhere. But this governor has just decided he's gonna go full Greeny and stop the bear hunt. We need to stop, like it actually ran on it. Yeah, he kills me. How are you gonna control the population? Chris Christie's popularity level had gotten real bad towards the end. They're just looking at polling data from New Jersey. But like he had always stuck up for the you know, he'd always stuck up for the bear hunt. But you know, it's like I feel bad for real bad for the guys in New Jersey and and uh, I would do anything to make that governor have uh, you know, to suffer politically. But the way that people going steak out the you know, you gotta like take your bear to a check station and people going like protest the check stations to take all take a lot of the fun out of it. Yeah, it's no fun. Yeah, there's something about bears. I mean, you you said it best charismatic megafauna. But what you had in New Jersey too, is you had it that the season went away because you know, they're bears have been just in terrible shape, and so they couldn't I mean, like like many many places for a long time couldn't, couldn't support certain hunting seasons, and then they eventually recovered bears to the point where they're like we used to have a problem not having enough bears. Now we've got a problem of having, by many estimations, too many bears. But the minute you the minute you lose, if you lose the season, it's hard to to to have it come back for for something like that, you know, and like even places are doing like elk recovery. There are some states who want to recover their elkert and bring new elkin, but they don't want to do it until they can put in place absolute language around how the fact that this is gonna be a hunted population, because you know, there's been cases where you've re established a herd of elk and then get to the thing like, Okay, now we're gonna open a hunting season and people flip because it wasn't that way before. So now they want to make sure, like and I hope just so everybody understands, when this recovery happens and we reach recovery recovery objectives, there will be a hunting season because it's difficult. Sometimes it's difficult for people to get used to the fact that you're gonna be hunting something that you didn't hunt before because they can't picture it being sustainable. If it used to be that there weren't enough of them. Wasn't that this thing with wolves, Like when they reintroduced wolves to Yellowstone, they had a number that they had set where it was a viable population, right and anything about that they would open up a season, and then they just kept moving the goal posts, and well they knew that anything. There was never I don't know if there was never, I don't think it was. I don't think it was explicitly in the recovery plan that hunting would open. But it was in the recovery plan that they reached the recovery objective. It would go to state management. Now many people know what that is gonna mean. But it wasn't like and then we'll start hunting them. It was just like state management. But people generally know the same. With the recent really delisting in the Greater Yellstone ecosystem, it's like when they're not, when they're no longer eligible for federal protection, which that population that bears is not because it's you know, gone far and above recovery objectives, it will go to state management. People know what that's gonna mean. So that's what gets you set and in that case they're correct those populations, but most people don't actually know that. You're assuming that. Well, here's the thing when they go When we went to delist the eagle, the bald eagle, everyone was real happy. No one was suing to keep the bald eagle on the endangered because because there's no risk of human exploitation because historically and culturally, there's just like people don't hunt eagles. The reason people that are fighting the de listing decision on wolves or grizzlies, they're not arguing recovery. Well, I mean some are, but mostly they're trying to use that argument as a way to prevent the possible ability of human exploitation of the resource. All right, Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan, why do you why? And I know the answer I want to hear from you. Uh, tell me your thoughts about bow hunt. You just love it, love it? Yeah, I love it. Yeah, And guns is like not, I'll still do it. What is the no? Yeah? No, yeah, yeah, I don't think you're like you're not like an anti gun hunter. But then talk to me, like when you dipped into this, when you dipped into hunting um and started to getting exposed to it, Like walk me through kind of your discovery of archery, Like what you know what I mean? Like what grabbed you? Well? I started I started doing archery long before I ever started bow hunting. I bought a bow just on a whim Me and my wife and my daughter went to archery shop just for a goof because you're fired up about that movie where they all got before that games. Now it was before that. I bought a bow and I bought a target and I had in the backyard and uh, I shot at a couple of times. Didn't know what I was doing, poor technique, you know, the whole deal. Okay, but but indulge me. What was it about? Both just looked like something to do. So is it like because you like shooting pool, Yeah, maybe there's a little bit of that. Just archery just seems like something fun, Like it's fun to hit a target, It's fun to go to the rifle range and shoot just shoot paper. It's fun, right, And so then so there was no thought of it as a weapon. No, not really, no, No, it was more like for fun target. And then I met Cam Haynes and I had him on my podcast and he brought me a white and he came up in my backyard and showing me how to do it. And then I kind of got into it. And then I really got into it. And then I met John Dudley, and John Dudley started giving me like real serious like archery advice and explaining the importance of structure and stance and technique, and then I got obsessed. By that point you were hunting. Yeah. Yeah, it became like martial arts, that's what it is. It became like a thing where you realize like, oh, there's like some serious levels to your ability and it's all about how much time you put in. And you could see the improvement with every with this when this is a direct link between the amount of focus, the amount of energy that you put into it versus the amount of proficiency that you observe, and you just keep getting better and better at it. And there's a long, long, long road, Like it's not it's not an easy thing. It seems like it should be, but just the the act of releasing an arrow with a you know, a surprise release, it's a very difficult thing to do. And so all this became like a sort of a mental almost like a meditation thing, mental exercise. And then when you add to the fact that you can kill something and eat it with that, then it became very exciting. Have you have you in your life have you moved into and out of passions? Obsessions? Yeah? Obsessions? Yeah yeah, but when you like, because you used to love the shoot pool, yeah, I still do well, I just don't do it very much. Okay, Well, like, do you imagine is archery different or do you think that is it plausible that in five years you'd be like, man, was I into bow hunting? No? Now I'm really into no throwing darts, No, no, no, no, the archeries. The bow hunting thing is for life. Yeah, that one's deep. That's that one's deep in the d n A because you're getting food from it. It's like way more intense. Like a ball going in a hole doesn't mean ship unless you decide it, does, you know, if you're shooting pool and like all the money is on the nine, like you made a decision that it's all the money's on the nine if you are staying there and uh, you know, mule deer comes out of the trees and it's thirty yards away and you're centering your pin out its vitals. You're like holy ship and you got to try to keep it together and release that arrow. That's real and that's intense. There's no there's no added value to this, you know, because you've decided that you're playing in a tournament or that you know, like this is a big game. This is bragging rights. No, this is this is a life or death situation with this wild majestic animal, and you owe it to the animal to have a certain amount of proficiency. And also you you just you want to make sure that you pull it off. You know, you could hit that target if it was just a target. Can you hit that target if it's the deer of a lifetime just standing right there? Can you do it? And there's when you do do it? And then you wind up eating that thing. Like that's what I said to you when you first took us in Montana and we were eating that deer over the fire and you know, and you were like, do you think you're gonna be hunging about I'm like, as soon as that deer hit the ground, and I was like, oh, I'm doing this forever. You know. I want to get back to the the the you of why can you hit the target but you can't hit the animal. I want to top of that stal like you have, like you'll probably have helpful opinions about it, um And I somehow think there's a link there between how many times you've been hit in the face by people. But I often have this fantasy of that if you could rewind human history and just take it back to some point and like let it run through again, just to see what things happened, like what things were inevitable and what things were like a freak. Yeah, so if you backed it all up to I don't know, ten thousand and seventy thousand whatever and just like let it go and be like, oh wow, I can't really, I couldn't believe, like what a flute World War two was. We didn't even come close to that on the second time through. Yeah. Yeah, fidget spinners, certain fashion things. Actually you just like there's no way in the world it would hit again, right, It's really because you got young kids, you know about fidget spinning. Sure, I know though in my experiment, the people were going to see big animals walk by and want to put a projectile behind their shoulder blade. Yes, that's why. That's what it feels to me, Like so kind of I want to say nice about inevitable. There's inevitable. There's an inevitability about hunting. They don't know how many times you rewind it. It would we would be finding ways to do it because it would look a little different, but the basic groundwork would remain intact. Well, it's almost unfair to use hunting in that sort of model of like redoing the world all over again, because human beings. There's a lot of speculation the reason why our brains doubled over a period of two million years just because we started eating meat, Because we started hunting and we started figuring out ways to kill animals, We started cooking these animals, we had more access to vitamins. Our brains grew larger for a variety of different reasons, but most of it is connected to the idea of us being hunters. Yeah, it's impossible to it's impos able to sort of to know the absolute answer, but I've even seen it. I wrote about this in one of my books, I Think We're Uh Anthropology. There was some anthropologists who speculated that even the idea of language, it was probably I mean, they're they're hypothesis was that language was an offshoot of coordinating hunting activities. That it would have been like, here's this instrumental thing you need to figure out how to do. It's very difficult. And we start to see the human history start to see these ideas of plans of people coming together to do like collective work, you know, something like wolves or group hunt. But this idea that that was sort of a good thing. There's been an early impetus to be able to discuss abstract notions. You go there, I'll go here, and then it you know, it really forced humans to start to interact and make long term plans. I was talking about this with my with Chris Tapleton yesterday. We're talking about fishing and that there's a thing that happens when you catch a fish or it triggers these ancient reward systems in your body, Like I see it in my kids the first time they catch a fish, like like you got you got we gotta got it. It's like there's a like a reward system because if you could catch a fish, that means you're gonna eat like you've got one, We've got food. It's time to celebrate. Whoa, we did it, And there's this huge rush of euphoria and happiness that happens even like five year old kids. I remember my daughter was like four when she caught her first fish, and she couldn't believe it, and I'm helping her hold onto the rod. She's got this fish, and her eyes are white like like saucers just so happy. And I was like, this, okay, this is like in your system. Yeah, when I see a cuter doesn't get excited about catching fish, I just want to like say to the parents that you might want to get that kid checked out. I'm ana maz to how without any provoking they immediately are like, how we're gonna cook it? When are we gonna cook it? When are we gonna eat it? Like you don't have to start asking questions about that and provoking it. That's like the next thing out of their mouth. It's like, holy, you know, trying to talk my kid in letting something go. But I'm talking about any man, Like you know, he guys just a cricket and that the cricket goes into a bucket. I'm like, hey, let's let the cricket go. Cricket lives in that bucket. Now do you think that your kids have your This is a this is like a serious idea. I don't understand entirely where personalities come from, and I don't understand like how much genetics get transferred from the parent to the child. But there's certain traits that my middle daughter, my nine year old has that are undeniably me, and like she's obsessed with things like she'll do she we we were coming home from this so we're staying at this was a resort, and we had to walk, you know, like maybe half a mile to the place where we're staying. She did cart wheels the entire way because she's obsessed with cart wheels. Like she'll do backhand springs in the middle of the house and you gotta tell like, you gotta stop doing that, like stop. She's like, okay, okay, one more, and she's she's she's fucking nuts, And I'm like, oh, that's me. That's me if I was a nine year old girl, Like this isnt it's weird, arrow, but it's not me, Like I told her to be like this, like I've I've let her just be whoever she is. And my youngest daughter has none of that. She's not like that at all. But when your son is around you and you know, and obviously your brain is and your DNA is filled with hunting, like your knowledge, your experiences, how much you speak, how much of like what gets transferred from your DNA to your children is your experiences in your knowledge and what you've accumulated all all the things that you've encountered in your life. I mean, how much does that transfer? It has to be some they don't really know. Yeah, I wonder about all the time, and I feel like I mayde even mentioned this to you before. Is a lot of friends would say to me, like, what are you gonna do if your kid doesn't like to you know as much as you do, and of from point out like, well, not many people do. Yeah, so the ones that you I know them all, you know, and uh so, yeah, I'm open to the idea that that's true, that that would happen. It won't be upsetting to me. But in the case of my older one, he is just fascinated by it, loves it. Okay, that's what he wants to do. Um. I don't know that. Maybe I subconsciously have treated my daughter differently. And when we found out we're having a daughter, my wife made it very clear She's like, this is not gonna be like a boy's club. The hunting, fishing stuff is not a boys club. Our daughter is in Equally, there was not I'm on the lookout for you to like favor our son in this world, and it's not gonna fly. So I have tried very hard not to you. But but she's not as fired up as he is, and I don't my subconscious he's sending a message. I don't know. She's just not as fired up. So yeah, that is different. One thing me and my wife have done really well, it's just let our kids do whatever they want to do, like what do you like? And just pursue that, not try to push them into something that they like. Just try to figure out what you like, and I get I try to explain to them what I do for a living that I'm very fortunate that I just do what I like. And you can do that, but you have to pursue that, like really early on, and it has to be a part of your brain, like your your your mindset has to be like what do I like to do. I'm gonna go do that, not I'm gonna do this safe thing that I don't really want to do because I know that maybe that'll pan out better. But no, just go figure out what it is you like to do and then pursue that and you'll be happier. You're honestly dare knight you We're gonna go squidd and my daughter bombed out. Were you there and it made you like you started having feelings about my daughters? Yeah, you're like, man, I'm real nervous about when that happens to me or something like that. Yeah, yeah they do. Yeah they're already doing it. But I don't know how we got to talk. Yeah, she did bail out, and for no reason, she bailed out on the trip. I just didn't want to do anymore. Just at the last minute, I don't want to go. I'm like, God, I'm like, that's okay, sweetheart, income next time, welcome any time, you know. And the the idea that my boy would like bail no way, I was like, I talk. Yeah, this something that I thought about many times. I would get a guilty conscience and not go when I was a kid. Really yeah, I felt bad. I felt like I would feel the sense of shame if everyone was going hunting or fishing and I didn't go with guilty even to the point where we would wake up very early to go out and sitting tree stands for deer, and my my bedroom was on the second floor and I'd be looking out on these these old trees are just like so close to the window. They're almost like scrape the house. And I remember when your alarm would go off, I would look out kind of hoping to see that the trees were just whipping in the wind, because I knew the old man would call it. You're like, I'm not gonna go. It's just you know, way too win d And I remember I would wake up and look and be like, gosh, it's not windy days. We gotta go. And it feels so bad for having that feeling. It was like a guilt thing. But that was put into me because if if you got caught, like if you didn't be your ass, you got caught watching TV, like the old man like, caught you watching TV, you're absolutely gonna be put on a chore list to where he takes like a legal pad and and name chores until he hit the bottom of the legal pad. Yeah, there's a lot of chores. You couldn't watch TV if you got well, if you got caught watching TV, he's gonna hit you with the chore list. If you were if you were out hunting, fishing, he was. That was the number one that like, that's good. Every other thing I will make you go do chores. So I think that instilled that I haven't tried to help my kids because it just seems a little bit like prone to backfire. But he raised people to like the yeah work for him. UM, get to get to Uh, why is it hard to hit? Because I'm asking you this because I feel like you're sort of a student of the mind, right, Why is it different to hit something living than is the hit a target with people? Consequence? You understand the question. It's pressure. It's the same thing as fighting. There's a lot of people that can fight UM in the gym. Like, you get them in the gym and they're they're there with people that they know, and they spa and they look like a world beater. But then you put them in at a world beater. I mean, they could beat everybody in the world, world champ. It's a fight expression, um, but you get them in an actual competition with some stranger and you know, the pressure of it is just too much. The pressure they can't manage their mind. A lot of it is managing stress, consequences, possibilities, probabilities, and then managing the idea that there's going to be uh, the consequences of a failure and that what what could go wrong. You could get knocked, you could get beat, you could get humiliated, and all those things are just overwhelming. They dwell on the negative so much they can't handle it. It's just a matter of being able to maintain a mindset under pressure. And I think that all those things whatever you do, whether it's live performance or you do a stand up comedy show or you know, archery or fighting, it's like the thing that they have in common is that there's expectations, there's uh, there's there's there's high levels of stress and adrenaline and nerves, and you have to be able to manage a mindset in the middle of those. And that's a big thing when an animal comes out because one of the things, like there's a parallel between playing pool. When you play pool, you should never think, I hope I don't miss this shot, because if you do, you're gonna fucking miss. You just are going to miss. You can't think that. You can literally cannot think that. I mean, like, let's see if I make it, I can't do it. You mean, you might make it one out of a hundred, but I really believe that the vast major any times if you go into a shot with that mindset, you will miss. And this is like taught this way and billiard academies. There's a mindset that's taught like it's just very similar to archery and that you have of fundamentals, you have technique in position. But then when you imagine and visualize that shot, you must visualize that shot going in the perfect hit, follow through, and just go through with it. But there's all like, oh, don't sunk this up. Oh it's guys, grow it up. There's all these nerves that come in and you have to learn how to manage that mindset. It's the same thing with bow hunting. With bow hunting, I remember the first time I shot an animal with a bow. It's like the consequences are so grave. You know, you've got this razor sharp broadhead, you're pulling the bow back, you're centering the pin. You're looking at your like, what am I gonna do this? I'm I gonna do this now? Like what if I miss? What if I suck this up? Like what? There's all these things you have to go No, no, no, just go through your checklist, center your peep, make sure you have your anchor points in place, make sure your hands not grip it in a death grip. You gotta go through this whole line of thing. There's a great website called Iron Mind Hunting with this guy Joel Turner. He's a snipering sniper instructor. You know what my body, Matt Elliott, it was just tell me about this and trying and talking to me and Yanni about going to meeting with this guy. Are going to do some of this guy say it's gonna be the same guy. He's gotta be the same guy. You should do a podcast with him. He's great. He does a lot of podcasts, but he's got a whole website that will take you through like because you know, he trains people that are you know, fucking clear and buildings and ship he trains people that are first responders. He trains a lot of police force people. And it's about being able to stay calm under pressure in the difference between closed loop systems and open loop systems in the mind, meaning that you know you you could. You gotta be able to stop it at any time. You can't like like a bat, Like you start swinging a bat the balls coming, You're not going to stop that in the middle, right, But when you draw Cabo. It has to be conscious. You have to be able to go, you have to be able to let down. You have to be able to know, like when the shot is bad, when it's not breaking, and you've got to be able to execute to the point where you're really legitimately getting this closed. I don't understand. I forget which one it is. I totally get what you're saying, but I don't know. I think it's open. I think it's open to uh, it's open to to to being changed or interrupting. I think it's open loop. I think that. I hope I don't sunk this up. See Jamie Semi looked that up there as you open loop and closed loop systems. So the first time it happened to you, were you able to maintain luckily? But yeah, but I recognized, like, oh boy, okay, there's a lot a lot to think about here. Old You're forty five, So yeah, I was old enough so that I was like, I'd gone through a lot of other ship before that was difficult. But then I recognized, like, oh great, welcome to my next obsession, because now I'm fucking balls deep in this, Like I just got so obsessed with it. I remember getting like getting it nariled down to sorry, I was gonna say, I feel like it's a little bit of like a luxury to do it at it when you're older, because you have more control over your mind. When I shot my first deer, this was a shotgun, not a bow. Actually, I think a couple of days beforehand, I had missed a dough with my bowl and it was I mean, the era had fallen off my rest. I was shaking so bad, like literally had hit the ground, you know, the leaves, and I put it back in there and shot and I don't remember anything about that moment. It was just like no, it was like went over back. I mean, but the same thing two days later with with the shotgun. It was sort of just like, oh my god, there's a deer bang bang, bang, and wow, it's it's on the ground dead, like as a kid. I don't know. I feel like I was probably closer to twenty, you know, five years later until I was finally like, oh, starting to think like you are, you know, when you're like, oh, here's the moment when ship starts to get crazy and I need to pull back in and started to think through the process my early rig that I started, and I missed my first year with a bow when I was I remember I missed it one year before you were allowed to hunt. I missed my first year of the bow when I was eleven, and the bow I was using was it was a compound, but it just had a stick on remember flipper rests. Yeah, it's like a little wire on a adhesive pad that you would stick to the rise of the bow and now as your rest. We shot with finger tabs, no pins, So just like shooting instinctive with fingers, but basically shooting like a recurp. But it has to be a compound. Some guys still do that. Oh yeah, it's it'd be like it's a great compromise, you know. Yeah, I heard a good argument for it. The guy was saying, like, think about how much more flat a compound bow shoots than a recurve. Like if you just have the same weight arrow all the time and just get used to it, like you're you're gonna have a pretty good sense of where that thing's gonna go based on just you know, like the same way you have a feeling if you throw a ball where that ball is gonna go. Yeah, so practice. Like now, it's like people either they go to the extremes, you know, you see, like people like, Okay, I'm done with all this tech. I'm done the technology. I'm just going stick bow. Yeah you can all, yeah, the stripped down compound. But I got to be where, you know, when I would shoot at a deer with my bow. After all, I got to be where I kind of knew what was gonna happen. But you're talking about you're on a platform in a tree in your shots twenty yard gulestue from the base of tree. But I got to be where it wasn't well, I wasn't hail marrying. But then when I started encountering elk with a bow, everything came undone even even not even even but even cow really just because they're so big, just big, and you're on the ground. I think being on the ground with them and they're so big that makes so much noise coming through the woods, and noise they may, however, be with a I remember being with a girlfriend of mine and we were had some elk feeding up hill and then I had already tagged out, but she was hunting these elk coming up and this bowl eventually comes up, easy shot, He's got an direction. He's screaming. She never even pulled her bow back, and I stood there, stood there and walked off, and she just looks at me, look in her face like holy sh it, and never even like thought to draw the boat. But I had a similar thing, and I remember I couldn't get I'd get the shot opportunities and blow him the first handful of him, I'd blow him. And when I was reviewing my mind, like I cannot remember shooting, and I eventually forced myself like o oh man. He used to put these stickers on the limb on the rise of our bolt and said, stay calm, pick a spot. Not that you're gonna remember to look at the sticker, but you just like helped, like getting that in your head. I remember getting to be with if I can remember one thing when I pulled back, if I can get myself to think of one thing, And I got in my head like lift your elbow, lift your elbow, because I knew that if I thought to lift my elbow, all the other stuff with ball in place and the first bowl I killed. I going down the hill and I could see a cow bedded down in front of me, and I'm like, well, ship, now I'm sticking. I knew the bull is down lower, but I couldn't move, and eventually that bull came up to her pulled back. I remember it was the first time I ever had him having like lift your elbow, just lift your elbow and through the heart, took two steps and fell over. I thought it was loosening. I was like, something must be wrong with me, because I swear I just hit that bullet that fell over dead, like you better like check my vitals. It just took one conscious act and not just just stop. Because this is a normal thing for you, right, this hunting experienced a normal thing for you. Imagine the average person who works in a cubicle, who drives in traffic, who deals with nonsense, corporate office bullshit, and human resources. Imagine that experience. How alien that is, the intense pressure of the moment, all the stuff running through your head, trying to manage the adrenaline executing the shot. The average person has no connection to that experience. But I wonder, like, if having no connection to it, where could it be that if you don't care, it's not scary. Yes, well it won't be as nerve racking. If you don't care, for sure, if you don't want it, that's what my brother, you're gonna care. My older brother what he dislikes about when you messes something up and he's like, I hate that. I'm so susceptible to lust, Like I lost I want that bowl so yeah, yeah, so bad that something like some weird like snaps a system balls apart and I can't get it. It's like, I just need to control the lust. If he could want it a little less, you would do better. That's the same thing with fighting, though. You have to be able to you have to be able to be zen in the moment and manage all the pressure. That's what it is. It's the pressure, like you want it so bad that you're you're out of composure, you're not you're not post, you're not together in that situation. So it is do you feel like getting um Do you feel like your experience fighting change how you're to look at it that you've been just hitting the face a bunch and had like just dealt with sort of fear and and performance. I think it helps, for sure. I'm used to being nervous, like I've been nervous at everything, So like, I know how to handle this, I know what nerves are. You still get nervous walking out to do in front of a a big audience. Yeah, yeah, I still get a little nervous. But could you this is another question I like when I think about this, when you're talking about the consequences thing, can you stay in front of a mirror and do your act? No? I don't do that because there's no consequence. Yeah, well it's just not not beneficial. There's nothing good. So it's not that it's it's not that it feels awkward. It's just gross staring at yourself talking and just be too weird. It'd be too like I'd be too too aware of how goofy it is. Just stand in front of a mirror and practice, you get the comedy is a weird thing that you kind of have to practice it in front of an audience. It's really the only way it goes. I write solitary. I write solo and then but basically the writing is almost like just a framework, scaffolding, and then I just go on stage with those ideas and I have to flesh them out in front of a live crowd. When you when you write comedy. Do you are you writing? How when I imagine someone who deals in the written word rights, Are you sitting there writing or is it just that you're always writing because it's in your head? And sit down and write. I sit down on the laptop. I have a program called You Write Dialogue. Yeah. Yeah, Well most of the time I write out like essay form, and then I extract bits from it. Have you ever heard of right Room? Do you know the right Room? It's pretty cool. It's it's software that blacks out everything, doesn't give you access to your you don't have, so it's black and then the is green like the terminator, like the matrix type ship. And um, I like that because he gives me this complete side. There's a version of it for Windows, to which I occasionally use. Occasionally use Windows. But um, what I do is I write everything as like an essay, and then once I'm done writing it as an essay, then I go over it and I try to figure out, Okay, where are the Yum, we open up a recentone here, where are the where the bits in? Here? Well, you're writing it to yourself. I'm just writing you know this. This This is what it looks like. Yeah, and what's the program called. It's called right room. M hm. How long how much time goes by between when you first have like you're driving around or whatever and you go like, oh, it's funny the thing that has passed through my mind. How much time does it take from that for that to become a joke, for that to become a thing to deliriately delivered to an audience. Sometimes it's an instant. Sometimes I'll have an idea and that it's almost like a done bit, Like I'll go on stage with it and it requires very little tweaking, so like it's there. I just know I have the idea. I had this whole you've seen that bit, that bit that I hope just to do about vegans. This like a whole long bit about vegans. About vegans always like to say humans are the only animal to drink the milk of another animal. I'm like, yeah, you know what else? Only people do fly planes, make movies, call each other on the phone and tell each other how awesome milk is? Like kind of stupid fucking point is that? And that bit all this was a long chunk and it all came out of like one conversation that I had with this one prostlytizing Vegan. I was like, this is such an annoying conversation, Like you haven't done both sides of this conversation. You haven't done the response, Like how would other people look at this? Like You've just got this idea in your head that everybody thinks like you, and you're gonna push this thought through. And that bit came out like literally, I wrote it on a plane and it literally it went from the laptop to being on Comedy Central, all in the same form. But does I always have to pass through the laptop? The laptop is not required. Sometimes I'll have an idea that never hits the laptop, and then I just bring it up on stage and like, I'll bring it up on stage and I'll start working with it, and then I'll tweak it on stage and then but I always have to write it out on top of it too. Over the last three years, I've modern I've modified my technique, and one of things that I've realized is that the best way two to really refine the bits is to do them. And then once I'm doing them, even if they work on stage, then I take them and I sit alone with them with the laptop, and I rewrite them, and I'll rewrite them from like two different angles. I'll say, Okay, well, I know we're gonna come at it from this way. Let's come out of from another way. Let's go your you got this bit, we got this. The premise is already locked down in this form it or it's already functional. But let's let's see it happens if we come at it from this way. Let's see what happens if we come out it from that way. And then um, sometimes I'll take a little piece of that and I'll take a piece away from the other one, and all this piece fits better there. And it's a constant, bloody struggle of like editing and observing and just trying to be objective and going back and trying it again and trying it soft, trying it hard, trying to slow, trying to fast. You gotta figure out where where it works. There's a thing you do. You gotta be aware of it where you bait your audience into. Like let's just say, let's say you decide for a minute, hack on. You're gonna hack on like Republicans and not not that you you know you don't do like a Republican bit. But let's just say you're gonna hack out Republicans for a minute, and you get like a certain segment of your crowd kind of like they're loving it, they love hearing this ship. But then you're gonna turn around and like very quickly flip something and attack the exact opposite. And I feel like, and I've seen you a couple of times where I feel like you almost throw out like a false bait um when you used to have used to have a you throw on a false bait, and it gets like some guys in the crowd ready to go, like they're like, I can't wait for coming next. He's gonna attack the thing that's most annoying to me in life. But then you just like pounce and go the other direction and just annihilate the idea that you're hoping that they're hoping you're gonna, yeah, pursue. Do you keep in mind the balance? Oh yeah, you have to, Like I have a dog on guys, the dog on ladies. But you gotta go first of all, because I'm a guy, and because of the type of guy that I am, I have to go hard on guys. First, like over the top, whether it could be no doubt at all that I've I've just come. Yeah, every fucked up thing about being a man has to be just beaten down, exposed, even exaggerated, and then you can move on to the ladies. Ladies. Yeah, but you have to have I mean, you see my news set when I was in Seattle. So I've I've got this whole chunk that I'm doing on that you know about this team thing that people do or they just they only you know, like like people get real tribal, Like women want to stick up. Like there's a lot of women that, like I had conversations with women where they failed to recognize that Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate for president, Like they failed to recognize it because they wanted a woman in there so bad. And I'm like, that is so tribal. I'm like, this woman, first of all, doesn't care about you. She didn't support gay marriage until two thousand and thirteen. She's a fucking politician. She's as dirty as they come. She did these speeches for bankers which she was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, won't release the transcripts, and you know that there's like, there's so of the Clinton Foundation is dirty to the core, there's so much about her that's compromised, and people like I don't care. I want a woman. I want a woman. I'm like that woman. This one, this is a terrible one. I got. I got the admission you're after, or not the youth specific actor, but I got an admission like this out of a friend of mine where we're talking about the Russia meddling issue, and I and just how you know, just what needs to happen, and this is, you know, on on precedented, and I was saying, so let's let's look at this for a minute. That let's say Hillary Clinton had one. And it later emerged that Huma Aberdeen had gotten an email from some suspicious source saying, hey, I got some real dope on your opponent, Um, would you like to hear it? And she says, oh, yeah, sure, I'd like to hear that, and they got it. Would you now be saying that Hillary Clint should resign? Well no, okay. It was like, yeah, so you agree that you're using your you're pretending to be outraged about something because it serves your ends like that, We just we live now in a pretend outrage world. Everything is just us pretending to be more upset about ship than we actually are. Well, people get almost did it today and I was trying to I was like, I guess I should probably pretend to care more in order to frame the kind of argument that that people are after. People do get upset, But I think one of the reasons why they get upset is because there's no real consequences in life, like the real the actual day to day struggle is so far removed from the primal world in which we evolved that are day to day differences about ideologies and about left versus right, or man versus woman or whatever. They's so they're almost me. It's like petty, Yeah, they're petty. They don't they don't carry any real weight, you know, So this man versus woman thing. Look, all presidents suck. We've never had a single president that didn't suck. It's a terrible job. It's a job that would be great if there was a hundred of us. But the idea that one king monkey is gonna run three million people, it's just bananas, doesn't make any sense. So whether it's Hillary Clinton or whether it's and then the idea of two parties. That's ridiculous to and anybody doesn't want to agree to that, Like, come on, man, you don't see that scam. We have a left versus a right. That's it. There's no room for nuance. What about a third party, a fourth fifth? No one takes those seriously. We just we have a weird sort of monopoly between these two very prominent parties. I think that the people that do get upset about this stuff and the people that do get locked in, I don't even think they know what they're doing. I think they're acting on like ancient reward systems that like try want to protect the veracity of their tribe and anything that's against their tribe. They dismiss ah, Like what was going on with Fox News when all the Russia stuff was going on, All they wanted to talk about was Hillary Clinton's emails. It's all anybody wanted to talk about. Well, well, Hillary Clinton. When they'll grab the pussy tape came out, it was Hillary Clinton and her emails. Like, they didn't even spend a moment on the idea that you are setting an example for all of the human beings in this kind of the president sets a tone. Do we really want to say that we're okay with a president of the United States, the commander of the military that is the greatest army the world has ever known. This guy is okay with saying you can grab them by a pussy. I was trying to kiss this girl. I moved on her like a bitch. I always have gone on me because I always want to have my breath, Because I just kiss, I just kiss. I can't help myself. Like it sounds like a fucking meniac, right, He would argue he was doing stand up. Well, he probably was, probably was. I mean, that's that is a really good look. There's a real good argument for having something like that being a massive violation of privacy and should be punishable by some sort of an extreme way. Yeah, I remember you joking before that, Why is everybody not super mad at Bob Marley? For I was gonna shot shot the sure if people aren't met Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was that was another bit that IOL do. Yeah, this these ideas, I think, um, people get so wrapped up in there. We we have these weird patterns, you know, when we're very tribal in our defense of our our patterns you know, and I think that's what you're seeing with left versus right. I think you see that with hunters versus vegans too. I mean, I've got a bit in my actor. I'm like, there's vegans that are vegans because they really care and they wouldn't want animals to die. And then there's vegans were really only vegans because scientology didn't find them first. Yeah, these dumb motherfucker's could have joined the Taliban if they took the wrong exit. They're stupid. They just found a group that will take them in and now they have vegan in their screen name, and they'll, you know, they'll attack. Well, the thing I like most about vegans, or maybe it's least I can't decide, and I don't you know, I don't like to to to like you're saying, you know, I don't like try to put them all in the same box. But it's such a radical aparture from norms. Yeah. Right, so it's like you're engaged in this. You have this belief system that's just really I mean, it's radical from any perspective historically, right, like contemporary, it's just a really unusual, uh statistically like a really unusual way to eat. But then the way they act so just dumbfounded by the fact that there are people that aren't engaged in it. It'd be like, you know, just if you got interested in it'd be like you also didn't get interested in shooting pool, and you're just so angry everybody that doesn't. You wanna be like, but most people don't shoot pool. Yeah, why when you run into a non pool shooter, why are you so pissed at him? It's like you're you're talking about something that just like it's kind of like brand spanking new. Yeah, and people are super selective about their outrage, Like a vegan has to drive down the street and almost every gas station look at has slim gems. Every McDonald's get dead cows in it. Everywhere you go. You're just looking at me. But then they'll find some guy with a rack, uh you know, in his truck, like some guy with a dead deer, and they're just this is a fucking outrage, you know. You know why? You know why that is because they like when people like like people that don't like hunting, but they eat meat. I think that they feel that the only way to responsibly eat me is they have this vague sense of guilt, like it comes with shame. But then there's some dude was like, I, oh, yeah, I mean and uh, I mean in this thing right here, and this thing makes me real happy. I'm glad, I got it. I'm not gonna eat it. I love this animal, I love where it lived. Like everything about this whole damn thing this is very exciting to me. People are like, wow, I would appreciate it if you felt some sense of like not knowing nous and a little guilt, a little more uneasiness, like don't engage in this singing like it. That's why they're pissed because you're you're like you're you're sort of going like yep, everything about this picture feels right to me, and that is annoying to Yeah, I get it, but like people are going to McDonald's and they got this guy, and I really should eat McDonald so much, and jeez, you know, you know, like how are these animals taken care of? Like that's sort of like this thing. But then when you get like real happy about the meat, it's off putting. There's another thing that people do that I've been talking about a lot lately, and it's vegans who have pets and they feed their pets animals. It's is one of the best parts of your bit when you're the cat Joe doing the cat who's looking out the window at a bird and remembering old, old, buried feelings. But that's I mean, there's something fucked up about people that can sort of departmentalize like that. They can they can compartmentalize their ideas and just like it. So this is just cat food. This is just cat food. Just pour it in there. It's okay. No, it's a fucking chicken. That chicken was in a cage and it got shoved into a machine, dozens of chickens and the grounded bits of dozens of and they made little stars out of it. Like this is not karma free, Like this is crazy. Yeah, but people like acting like, oh my cat speaking like they're proud of it. Like you know, you could lock someone in the room to be like, you know what's cool about that person? They never want to go outside. It's true, it's I mean, look, I think there's also there's an issue that a lot of people have that aren't involved in hunting, and I think when you look at the general population, what is the numbers eat meat something on those longes. Man, I never looked at up. I don't know. I think it's pretty crazy high. It's something in the arrangement, you know. I have looked up. I can't remember what I found. What percentage are engaged in the depth of that animal? Is it even ten? It's probably not even tasha less than that, maybe like percentage of people. I guess you could say, like what percentage of people work in the uh so you'll be saying the meat, the processing and agricultural sectors even that, yeah, that or hunting, or like say that what percentage of were involved in the actual death of the animal that they consume. It's so insignificant, it's so small. But if you think about the past, all of human past, the connection was almost immediate, Like almost every person had some sort of an immediate connection to the fish that came out of the river or the cow that they slaughtered, or the deer that they hunted. All that stuff was like immediate, and so it was natural and everybody understood it by by separating people almost unanimously from the meat and from the death of the animal, like the connection to it is is so vague. It doesn't even make sense to people. It doesn't make sense that you shoot an animal. I mean, well, they're My wife was having dinner with some friends and one of the guys was English and um, I was on an elk hunt and uh and they were like, well, where's your husband's like, oh, he's hunting. And the guy's cutting into his steak. He's like, that's deplorable. That's deplorable. She goes, you're eating a fucking steak Like where did you? What do you what did this grow off a steak tree? Like what are you talking about? Like he he eats that, you're eating it, Like I said, okay that you killed it with your credit card, but it's not okay that someone does it with a bow and arrow, Like you're out of your fucking mind, Like this is You've got some weird mental people. If you were honest, they would say, yes, I can't explain why, but that's what I'm saying. Yes, but that's not a tenable argument. It's just not and what they let. People love recreational outrage. They love to be able to be upset about that. I'm gonna steal that words. Yeah, I think so, I'm not sure recreation. You have a treated it to me. I might have heard it from somebody else, but I say it so much I almost on it now. But anybody recreational outrage is what it is. It's like they've decided this instead of going also known as Facebook, Yeah, instead of saying, yeah, this is kind of weird that I eat steak and then I have a problem with someone killing a wild animal, Like, tell me about it. Yeah, here's another weird thing I've had people say. I like that you do with a bow and arrow. I think rifle huntings for pussies, But I like the fact you do it with a bow and arrow. It seems to give the animal more of a chance. And I go, Okay, honestly, it's better to do it with a rifle. I'm like, it's smarter. I'm like, if you do with a rifle, you have a higher higher percentage of kills, your higher percentage of success, more opportunities, Like it's going to die a little quicker. Yeah, if you're gonna do it ethically, I mean it's gonna It's like a rifle is a really good way to go. Like why why does that? Why does someone think it's too easy? Like Oh, it's too easy, Like I could get a hunter thinking that, like I enjoy a more intense challenge, you know, like I'm tired of tapping out blue belts. I only want to spar with black belts now, I want to I need a more intense challenge to excite me. Which is weird for people, like, wait a minute, are you trying to hunt for food? Or you have playing a game like what are you doing here? Which which one of these? Well, it's kind of both. Definitely both. Yeah, it's definitely both. But people don't want to hear that. Nobody wants to hear that. Well, you get off on this? Do you get off on this? Yeah? Yes we do. I mean look, when I was in Utah, we did this under arm Or film M that's gonna be released this Friday, and I shot this giant herd bull. It was, it was amazing. It was the craziest experience. This bull had like thirty forty cows. He had um heard them all into this one area and then one cow took off and he followed this cow and he's like, get back here, come on, get back here. She's like, fuck you, I'm finding someone else. You've got too many women, and she takes off and he had to follow after her, and so he brings all of his cows to follow after her, and we went and followed after two. And so as we were coming over the hill, there was some other bulls that had been bugling behind us. He thought that we were those other bulls, so he came back around, and that's how I got him. And this whole thing was like he heard him, he hears walking, so he came about and then he went around us try to catch our wind. And but I was at full draw with like eight yards. It was like a bunch of bushes in the trees. But I was at full yard and these he's huge. I'm looking at his antlers. He's standing there. He's like he's like just looking around, and I see him right there, and the thrill of it all, it's so insane. And then to have him go down the hill and then come back around and then he's in a gap at like thirty or two yards, and between these two trees there's like a two foot gap. And I punched that arrow straight through the heart. It was a perfect shot. And he said he walked like fifty yards and just starts wobbling and just drops. If that's not thrilling. If you want me to say that that I didn't enjoy that, I'm not going to I'm not gonna lie. I enjoyed it. It was exciting, it was crazy. I love the meat. It's the best tasting meat. I love the idea of getting meat that way. I love the fact that I'm not dealing with factory farming, or hormones or antibiotics or tortured animals. I'm dealing with a wild animal that thought some other wild animal was gonna come and bang his chicks. And he was like, funk that I'm gonna to protect my girls. And he came back around and I got him. And I think if you took any vegan whoever through that same experience and just held them by the hand and we're just there and they didn't have to try to shoot the animal, but it held him by the hand and let him experience all that, they have a very hard time looking in the eye and saying that wasn't thrilling at all. Well, you were an elk guide for a long time, and one of the things that I was saying to these people in Utah, I was saying, have you guys ever thought about taking people out that have no desire to hunt and just dress them up in camel and sneaking them into the rut, Just just get in there just while while it's happening, and watch how crazy it is, because it's a little bit different there than if you watch it on Blue Blue Planet, or it's so much different. It's so much different. Mean, we were we were seven. We we crawled, I mean by crawled like tiptoe, like real slow through the woods for about thirty five minutes till we got to this, uh these trees that were the edge of this creek where these uh, these elk were all funneling through, and we were super close, like inside of twenty yards of some of these some of these um cows, and you know, some of them would like look at us and stare at us, and we're totally frozen and we're not moving, and they went back to their ship and start doing things and doing elk things. But we're in the heat of this, and I was like, this is so exciting, like even if we don't even shoot an elk, like you're surrounded by like twenty elk in their world and they don't even know you're there. You get to see them be elk. Like this would be a exciting thing just to take people and just tell them how to like walk real slow and we're gonna get you in the middle of this crazy activity. What we saw them running. We saw this one bull elk like literally tackle this cow. He got on top of her and he hits her one time, breeds here and like sins are flying, like sins are flying forward on her hind legs, and we're like, this is right here, you're right here watching that. But I think a lot of people would come out of that experience and they wouldn't be like, and now I want to run an arrow through one. I agree with you, Yeah, for sure. I think a lot of people would have a real hard time watching that. Animals stumble, watching the blood pull up both sides of its body through its vitals, and watching them drop over. To me, I was like, look, he's not gonna live forever. He's gonna get eaten by mountain lions or wolves or whatever else, bears, whatever else comes along and catches him when he's weak. He's probably eight and a half nine years old. If he's super lucky, he's got two years, he's in the autumn of his life. If he's super lucky, he's got left. But that, you know, I wouldn't go and say that there's like an old man walking on the side of the road that oh, yeah, it doesn't matter if you run him over. I mean, he's the old guy. You know. That's true. Now, that's true. It's but the the old guy on the side of the road is not gonna get attacked by a mountain lion anytime soon. Hopefully. This animal, for sure is I mean, that's their demise. Their demise is freeze to death, starvation, predatory, you know, just they have three options. It's not it's yeah, arrows are way better than all those other options. It's hard to you know. I spent a lot of time trying to get into the it's a mental trap, but you try to get into the animal's mind. I think that's where where it winds to me be tricky with talking to people who liked bow hunt. I was having this conversation with the April Bokey. We're talking about bow hunt and she's talking about just like she's more ethical to bow hunt and um, and I'm like, what just winds like, like you brought up earlier, it's really tricky because from whose perspective the animal dosn't care? Yeah at all. I had a like a animal rights I interviewed in animal rights activist and have him explaining he's like, the animal doesn't care. The animal don't care that you have these like high minded ideals about wildlife conservation and preservation and the they you respect it and they're going to utilize at all. It's dead. The same way that someone's gonna come and and and shoot you, you're probably not really gonna like weigh out what were the motivations of the person that shot you? You're like, oh, with all that considered, I'm glad I was murdered. That's his that's his way of looking at it. That's a way of looking at it too. But did you say about species is m I talking about I know about that. I'm a species is. There's a fucking thing that a meme that someone made where it's it's got like Hitler is like a racist and all that, and then it comes to me and I've got a mooselig it's a species ist. It's a good concept. Yeah, have you had any uh has anything. Have you learned things or had thoughts or seen things and hunting that have gone and and made their way into your stand up, like what your vegan been exist if you hadn't started dabbling in hunting. You know, I told you before we went on that trip that I was having some real concerns about factory farming. I'd watched way too many of those PETA videos. I'd seen a bunch of them, and I was like, what am I doing? Like? How am I eating this food that's being raised like this? Because I think the a gag laws that we have, the agriculture gap where people don't know there's there's laws that prevent people from filming inside of these horrific factory farm warehouses where they have these pigs and cows and chickens just stuffed into these really confined areas. I mean, I'll goal from to do it, even if the manager of the slaughter facility wanted to let them. No. No, I think undercover filming. I think that's what it mostly involves activists releasing undercover so that you're not allowed to show people because it could harm the business, you know, which is just crazy. It's like it's it harms the business because most people are not aware of how horrific these conditions are. And uh, I'd gotten down too many rabbit holes and I'd watched too many of those videos, and I was like, this is just a crazy thing that people have accepted because they're completely insulated from it. You just go to Morton's and you order the rib i and it comes out and you're like, oh, that looks good and you start digging in. You don't think about what happened to that animal. Up until that point. Well, I had started thinking about it. So I had made this sort of decision before I went with you that I was either going to be a vegan or a vegetarian, or I was going to become a hunter. I was like, well, I gotta figure out one of these things, because this is just I can't just keep ignoring the fact that I know how these animals live. And then when, um, I told you, when as soon as that that deer dropped, I was like, Okay, I know what I'm doing. I was like, this is just too exciting, this is amazing. And then when we're eating it, we're eating it over the fire. To this day, that's one of my happiest memories, Like you and me and Callan and Callahan were just cutting up that meat and Doughty were eating over the fire. I'm like, this is one of my best memories, guilt free eating. It was a hundred percent guilt free. I mean I didn't. It was definitely a sense of loss. I mean, you guys captured that really good. You got my face, like when I shot the deer and I was like, whoa, here we go. That's one of my favorite meteor moments of zero reaction there. It's beautiful. Yeah, it was intense when when I originally talked to you years ago now about going on a hunting trip and we're like kicking around various ideas you were reluctant to You're reluctant to go hunt bears, but then later did a bear hunt? What what went on in your mind aroundmost ideas? Like what do you think? It was? Um, well, I didn't think that you eat you ate bears, and then I realized you do. And then so the idea of any eating a bear was kind of alien to me. It's like I can't get that good, but dear good, I like venecent. So you just you could just picture it really well. Yeah. And also bears are just too much like dogs, like they're too canine. It's like there's too much about them. And uh, I have gone on bear hunts, but the reality is I do not enjoy it the same way I enjoy elk hunting or deer hunting. Because you like elk me, Yeah, because I like elk meat, and I like the idea that they are there. You know, there's predators and then there's prey, and although bears are omnivorous, they're they're essentially predators, whereas the deer their prey. I mean, and you can you can even eat them raw, like you've got trichinosis, So that that trichinosis thing freaks me out. Like all the weird pathogens and parasites and ship that these bears can get that freaks me out too. But it's just I don't feel the same way about They react differently when you hit them. Like when they get hit, they literally try to attack the area that that got like an arrow goes from They go back and they try to like go back and get it, and they they moaned. They fight death in a different way. It's like everything about them is different, and there's just um, they're too close to like what we are. You know, I'll eat them. I mean, don't get me wrong. Like if you have some bear sausage, I'll definitely eat it, and if you know, we're out on a bear hunt. But the reaction that people have too bears too is another thing that keeps you. Like if you put up a picture of a dead bear, people blow their fucking gaskets. They go crazy. People are a real hard time with dead bears. But but would that would you allow that to influence your like are you like, oh yea, I would put this picture up on social media, but I'm not gonna exists too upsetting to people. I kind of stopped putting dead animals on social media because it's just too stola. Yeah, too confusing for people. I'll put up pictures of me hunting. I'll put up meat, I'll put up but you know, and like some hunters will give me a hard time, like our friends put up don't you put up the dead animal? Like yeah, Like I think it's too confusing. You know, people just look at it like, oh, trophy, you're a trophy hunter. You're killing this animal for that. But if you just have the meat. Like, nobody gets mad. Very few people get mad at me when I cook like some elk, and I'll put a picture of it on Instagram, like I'll have, you know, one out of a four or five hundred comments and be shitty. But those are like those proselytizing vegans with like vegan Warrior Princess in their screen name, and they're just gonna attack anything, and that's just who they are, you know. But that's that that's a that's a There's a notion out there about trophy hunting that I just like, absolutely reject. Is this idea that if if I'm going out and I'm hunting and I kill a buck and I eat the buck and I like the buck a lot, and I'm real happy about it, and I keep its antlers, that somehow the idea that it would have been more pure had I discarded a portion of it the antlers. Yeah, it's like, well, no, I'm sorry. I like this whole thing. I'd like to being able to eat it. I also like to have these antlers around too, because I think they're cool looking and I remember it by it and I just like them, and this whole thing is important to me, people like the somehow this like this symbolic gesture that you'd be like, my motivations are so pure, I will discard these antlers less than anyone think that I cared about antlers had the time to explain what you just did every time, like Joe saying, you just like you're just taking it out, you know, so it doesn't blow up into something I think you're doing. It does help the greater good. I think just to be keeping doing the meat photos and stuff like that, because you're probably bringing more. You're moving that needle to you know, a pro hunting place as opposed to that one gripping green is moving at the other direction. But I don't think. I don't think of every action I take as being engaged in some rhetorical battle. M h no. But I think for for Joe, it's just like a waste of time, right Eventually you're just like, it's just create conflict. A friend of ours once pass along an image, you know, never mind talking about confusing. I'm not gonna tell about this image, but I'm gonna talk about this mo who you know, Yeah, I love was you're talking about a bear's response, Like just bears being different Moa. I believe he's in Colombia with some like indigenous hunters and they shot a monkey with a blow dart. I could be messing this up. I don't think I am. And he described the monkey reaching around to grab at the dart. I think this is motelling. Yeah, I remember you told me I want to take the name out left because if I'm messing the story up. But that really struck him. Yeah, of the thing that like, there is this sort of difference, and I oftentimes try to reject it. The idea that that we should that if you have a sustainable population of black bears, and you have a team of wildlife professionals or biologists who are able to look and and have a management objective for the bears and realize that there's a harvestable surplus of animals, meaning you could have a bear of an ex number of bears, and that every year you could harvest some percentage or kill some percentage of those bears and the next year have the same number of bears again, because the landscape has a carrying capacity that it's going to maintain, and you can remove some animals and that number is probably gonna stay. The same, because if you were not to remove those numbers, you would see a similar effect from starvation territoriality, you know, bears killing other bears to defend territory, and so there was, you know, the term like a harvest bule surplus. So I'm like, if you agree with these concepts, it shouldn't matter if we're talking about bears or deer, but it's in people's heads. We are one time with one of the guys we work with, and we're looking at a wolverine scavenge and a moose carcass, and we didn't go after it. But someone observed that in this unit we're and you're allowed a wolverine, and because of the way the tag system works, um that we one of us could have legally gone after the wolverine. And he's like, well, I hope you don't go. I hope you guys aren't thinking you're gonna go get that wolverine. It's like, well, we're not, but why, Like what is it about that? Because we're out here hunting, right and we're hunting under guidelines that you're comfortable with, as laid out by the state Wildlife Agency, And they say that it's all right as well, it's just because they travel so far. And I'm like, well, no, the we just we're hunting caribou right now, and this is the largest this is the longest migrating land mammal we have. So it's not distance traveled. These seems will travel hundreds of miles. He's like, well, they lived to be old. Well there's you know, we got radio collared elk and other things that they're in their early twenties and you're comfortable hunting those. Well, it's he doesn't know, just something's different about it. Well, also, isn't it that you're not gonna eat it? Would you eat the wolverine? Well, I got a friend who I gotta Yeah, you know, if I Here's the thing That's what always goes through my head because I'm not dying to go. I'm not like I'm not dying to go get a wolverine. I'm not I'm not like really interested in eating the wolverine. I would. Now my friend back um, a buddy of his, was talking about sitting there, coming into Buck's house one time and he's boiling a wolverine skull because he wants to keep the skull and his friends saying, as I'm sitting there watching him cleaning the skull with a jackknife, he's just picking the skull meat and eating it. So here's the guy who likes Wolverene flesh. Just fine, What are you telling me that there was some famous trapper that really enjoyed wolf. Wolf was like his favorite meat. That was the Arctic explorer Bill Jalmer Stephenson, who ate who lived just the strict wild game diet out of necessity while he was traveling in the Canadian High Arctic. And uh, he had actually made first contact with a lot of uh Inuit hunters in the early even in the early nine hundreds. He was making that they were aware of whites but hadn't met whites. But um, yeah, he he was just like that was his meat. Wolf he had eaten. You know, he's eating muskox, doll, sheep, caribou. He preferred both, loved it, talked about all the time. It was his favorite. Me. But take this, he one time there was a dead whale on the beach that he writes about and it was like this, uh, like this dried out like a desiccated whale carcass on the beach and they were really hard up for food, and so they would and cut the tongue out of this whale. And he thought about how they had to boil it, change the water. Boil it changed the water, boil it changed the water just to get the salt out. It was so impregnanted with salt, and eventually eat it. And later he hears the encounters menu hunters and and they explained, I think that I think of a lanter seven years yea, so he had so he had a strong stomach seven years. Another really interesting thing to Stephenson. You should read stephen You should read Stephens in My Life with the Eskimo, because the thing that frustrates Stephenson is that when he he would go, I know, I told you about this too. Stephenson would go and try to impress the Inuit with technology, but because they had this very elaborate mystical belief system, things weren't impressive to him. Like he would say, you know, he would bring up, uh, you know when our where where I come from, we can open a person up and do a surgery and they're like, oh, yeah, we know a guy comploy your whole spine and skull out while you're sleeping and put a new one back in, and he'd say, oh, check this gun out, I can shoot something away, Like, oh, yeah, we know a guy who can take his bow and shoot it and it'll the air, will fly over the mountains and kill something on the other side of the mountains. And he'd always be getting bent out of shape about his inability to impress them because they had and everyone's telling to like he's talking about his uh a telescope that he can observe the craters on the moon, and like, we know a guy to up there. That's awesome. But one thing he was able to get him on board with a small stove he had where I think it was a stove, and they're like, no, that that's something I do dig that stove. Man, that's awesome you Oh yeah, man, Well if you went wolf funny, would you be into eating it? Would you definitely take the meat? You know? Oh there's no way. Yeah. Just because of me and my personal like just how I like how I approached stuff and sort of the moral system that I have set up. This isn't a comment about what I think all the people should do. It is just like me personally, like my personal view of what hunting is to me and does for me. Um, yeah, I would, I would be actually pretty curious about it. But here's the thing that happens to me, is there where I gos buying wolf tanks. But then I just don't have the like when I see him, I don't have uh must yeah, I don't like. I don't have my brother and my brother describes as lustb One time we were hunting, like I got a doll sheet. Then a few days later my friend got a black bear and we were camped up on a gravel bar, and you know, here comes the wolf down the other side of the stream from a river from us. Beauty too, Yeah, just like loping along white dusky light. I mean it was kind of magical and just not and I just felt like, yeah, I know, we just got like a sheet, we got a bear, like you know, not enough, and um yeah, it's like it doesn't go seeing one. I just don't. I don't feel it and it's not it's not you know, I'll probably still continue to go buy wolf to I don't. I don't like buying tags. I don't look at me beings a waste some money it goes to fund you know wild life agencies and you get throwing down the drain, but um, yeah, I get them, and then I don't. I don't walk around being like hoping to every corner that come around it would be a wolf stand there in range. Yeah, I just want to see them in the wild. I saw I think I saw one in Alberta. I saw something very doglike run across the road late at night, like it was like at dusk or waiting to get picked up, and it ran across this dirt road. It's like, I think that's a wolf. And they got a lot of wolves up there, But I've never seen one like real close where you could definitely get a get a look at it. But my instinct would definitely not be to shoot it. Yeah, I don't have it. But what's funny with me is, at the same time, UM, A very you know, strong advocate of the idea that while like you know that healthy, sustainable wildlife resources should be managed for you know, it should be managed for people to do like extraction of renewable resources. So I always support and continue to push for states that have stable populations of wolves to be able to manage them as the states seas fit, including if they have wolf seasons. But this same way that you know, some things I hunt for all the time and keep wanting to do it, there's other things I'm just like just want to be not that interested in. You know. I was just having this conversation with Rammy the other day where, um, you know, after a long time, but no emperor goose seasons and in in western Alaska they're gonna have like an emperor goose hunt. And we were kicking this around by how you can apply for a tag for an emperor goose and uh, usually I'm like a generalist and I want to go hunt whatever. But in time, bo I was just like, I just don't feel like I'm just not fired up, Like I haven't had enough time to begin to think of it as a Yeah, I just about that about Africa as well, right, Yeah, Like, yeah, I think that when I look at a lot things that's there, there's certain things that look at I'm like, that's a game animal to me, like it's appealing to me. It's appealing to me as a thing to hunt and and to other people is different. I think, you know, it's hugely depending on where you grew up. Like if you see a white tailed deer. Boom, that food, that's a white tailed deer. If you see a Neil guy like, oh look at that. Yeah, what's that again, Neil guy. Huh, so that's what one of those looks like. Yeah, so it's something that develops over time. I'm curious about the wolves. I kind of feel like what might happen is the same thing that happened with the mountain lion. If he tried. Mountain lion is delicious, dude. I look at a mountain lion, I look at a mountainline, and I'm like, that's a game animal. Yeah, but a year ago, before we went on that hunt, and before you shot that one, before I ended up with whatever thirty pounds in my freezer, I kind of had hit them in the wolves in the same category. That's kind of you can tell if it was like an eating thing or not. And then all of a sudden, I started eating mountain lion, Like, you need to get another mountain lion, December. I'm telling you, what's it comparable to pork? Pork A really good pork. The fat is good on it. It's got a white fat, but not all talking tattle, not waxy fat like ungults, you know, not waxy fat like members of the deer not like members of deer family. It's got a fat on it that looks like like a pork fat. And that ship is good Man that played the Tohone Ranch place where you took me hunting wild pigs. They have trail camera that's set up over a pond and they got sixteen different mountain lions on that trail camera. Yeah, different ones. They're like California is overrun. It's overrun because they won't manage them. Well no, but I heard they're killing just as many now as they ever did killing them. Well, they're killing them when they encroach on civilization. Like they're not killing them out in like Tahone Ranch, but they're killing them like in San Francisco. They they've been doing this thing where they did the study on the diet of these mountain lions that they wind up killing because they wind up, you know, getting too close to people. It's all pets. It's all dogs and cats. They're eating people's dogs and cats. Like that's like fifty of their diet. It thought would be mostly deer. But but it's funny because the public is okay, like like Oh yeah, I'm okay with killing the mountaine as long as the person hunt him isn't having a good time. If they're being paid by the government to do it, that's cool. But if they're paying, if they're paying money, yeah, to go out and do it, and they enjoy it, and they view the animal with like a certain level of admiration and respect and want to be like putting its skin in their house to look at for the rest of the life. That's not okay with me. I want the guy who just punching a nine to five clock and doing it. That's their perspective on it. Yeah, they don't want it to be a pleasurable thing. They wanted to be a necessity, a management issue. But they don't understand like they're the resources. The money goes the opposite way. Now, you have to pay someone to do something that you would get money from, you know, you would get someone to pay you so that they could go out and do it. Instead you have to pay someone to go out and do it. Do you hear about that mountain lion, the Coward mountain lion, and the Santa Monica mountains that funked up this alpaca farm. Yeah, I wrote about this, and this woman got a depredation permit and she got so many death threats. This this mountain and killed eleven alpacas and a goat just went on a rampage there was in New York was sorry interrupted, and so she got a depredation permit. This is her livelihood. She raises alpacas, and this thing just slaughtered them. And even though this mountain lion is obviously just recreationally killing animals, the idea killing that mountain lion was so it angered people that a person would do that. So they started sending her death threats and she panicked and she pulled out of it, and she's like, I'm not doing anything. So she's sort of left in this terrible situation where, you know, twelve of her animals were murdered by this big collared mountain line. I mean he really murdered. It's not like he's etium. You know. It's one thing that he killed an alpaca and he ate it. Well, some mountain lions, do you know it's gonna be around him. Maybe she'd get some dogs and bark or something, but no, this one just got in and just went on a rampage. She's just like surplus killing. People like to Really it's funny that people like to really argue whether that's the reality or not a mountain lion doing that. People like to debate. It's like people who talk about surplus killing tend to be okay with hunting wolves and mountain lions, and people who are very uncomfortable by the subject of surplus killing tend to be not okay with it, Like they like, I don't want to acknowledge that that's true because it messes up the message I'm trying to send about how these animals behave basically the same thing that you were talking about with like Hillary Clinton with the Russians, Like if you were on that team, you would say, well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no, you would you would find somewhere to way to justify it. Yeah, it's it's a tribal idea, and the tribal ideas there's hunters, these terrible, mean people like Elmer Fudd, and then there's us good people who don't believe in that want to protect wildlife at any cost. I've run in the same thing by writing about um archaeological work bison kill sites that sometimes you would have where that you talk about like articulated and disarticulated carcasses at at kill sites where you'd have the remains of hundreds of animals, hundreds of buffalo or bison and a dozen have been processed and the restaurant is there. It makes people uncomfortable because there's this tidy notion of that prior to European contact, like like all killing was very purposeful and every part of the animal got used, which is like a pretty which is a helpful concept to understand hunting practices, you know, among Native Americans. But there are exceptions to the rule and people don't really like that kind of like extra noise to be like, oh, there's a kill site where eight hundred of them went off a cliff and it seems that maybe twenty or so we're butchered, and the restaurant just left a rock, probably because it was hot out. How could you ever get to them all? It was like a thing that happened, and it does and it winds up. It's just like people don't like that kind of stuff. Like you know what, sometimes the mountain lion would just kill a ton of ship kind of because it just enjoys the excitement of it. We'll never know what's really in his head. But he's expending energy, right, He's he's putting himself to risk, which they understand. So there's something he's getting out of this or else. Why would it be that he would just go out and like, I'm gonna expel a ton of energy and really be at risk in a place I know I shouldn't be, or a place that's like more scary than when I'm laying up in a tree in the middle of a thicket. I'm gonna do all that and kill a bunch of stuff. He's gotta be getting something. There's something that's coming out of that. Yeah, we were talking about this the other day. Those wild animal parks. You ever see that wild animal park footage from Beijing where this woman got in an argument with her boyfriends, gets out of the car tiger Jackson at It's crazy footage because she got she she shut the past your side door, and she storms over to the boyfriend's you know side, and she's yelling at him, and then out of nowhere, this tiger just goes just grabs her and and like that's what it wants to do. That's what it does. Like, you can't just feed it. Killed her, killed her, didn't kill her, killed the person who tried to rescue her. Mom got out of the car and chased after the lion and the tiger, and the tiger killed her. Yeah, mauled her, killed her mom. That's what they want to do. And you can't just feed them. You just can't just keep feeding them. That's not good enough. Like they're designed to kill things their nature's cleanup system. Anything with a limp gets taken out, everything slower gets taken out. And then all of a sudden they're in this weird enclosure where people are staring at them through glass and they never get to kill anything. And like all these reward systems that are primal that are just a part of their DNA since the beginning of time, they don't get exercised. It's kind of torture in a lot of ways. Yeah, I want to point out too, I don't when I talk about like surplus killing among predators, I don't anybody hold this against them. I'm not pointing out like, oh, and they you know, and they deserved to have bad things happen to them. It's just, you know, it's just in understanding wildlife which I'm interested in. It's just a factor. But I'm not saying there's any I'm not proposing there's any like sting there. I I believe that I believe we should continue to try to recover and maintain all our wild life anywhere that it's anywhere that it's plausible to do so. So I know that there there are people within the hunting world who would like to see who don't really welcome the return of certain predators on the landscapes. But I think that in generally speaking, in places where, uh where we can recover large carnivores and have let's say minimal risk or a limited risk of them having human conflict, I think we should do it. I'm not like a guy who wants to go wipe them off the face of the earth out of some notion that you're gonna have tons of more Elkander around that probably comes about like the hunt in Alaska, and Alaska you got you know, wolves and grizzlies across I don't own nineties seven orent of their historic range. And it's also a great place to go hunting people and people in lord Fordator super anti predator, and there are something about how they want to hunt Alaska. I always like, oh, you wouldn't like it. Bro's munch predators up. There must not be any good right, well, I like I like the idea of wild, right the wild, and the wild is balanced. You're gonna have everything. You're gonna have the wolves, you're gonna have the predators, you're gonna have the prey. It's gonna be the whole wild experience. Everything else is just some sort of a weird artificial environment. Like you've removed all the predators and now you get to be the predator own and you get to drive in in your truck and hop out and just pick what you like and just shoot it. It's not really wild, you know. I love that feeling and looking over my shoulder, man, there a few places left though you Okay, it's tough to really get wild. I don't know, man, do you still feel that way after your experience and a fog mac? Oh, buddy, my that feelings have changed. That podcast was looking shoulder. That podcast was amazing. I remember hissed to you for breaking up into two pieces that well, you know, I should come cut a lot of our fans I should come clean on that, And I told if everyone that's asked about it in private conversation, I've told him I happened. We're a little light on content, so we we wouldn't even have broken it up. It just was convenient that we were that we had we need to fill a spot. Yeah, I'll take the blame as a producer. And I was like, Wow, we just talked about that so long. You could actually make that too, and then we wouldn't be needing to worry about how we're we're low on release dates. People were pissed, why do you have a um? Do you you have to release a certain amount of them? It's just in our heads. You gotta let that go. Yeah, probably, But I'm I'm like, I like, I'm a rigid guy. Oh like that advice? I like that. Yeah, you gotta let that go. Yeah. Yeah. This is the beautiful thing about being your own content provider, right, your own You can do whatever you want. That's the only thing that makes me happy I don't have I mean, it's not the only thing, but one of the primary things about this job that I love so much is I don't have a boss. Nobody can tell me what to do is no like do whatever I want. You know, if I if I can call the people up and go tomorrow, they'll be There's gonna be two podcasts next week. But we have all these ads tough ship by click. This is what I'm doing. I'm doing two next week, I'll do five. You know, I'm taking a week off after that. I don't want to have a schedule. I don't think that's good for you when it comes to some things. I want to ask you a question. Don't that ship? It changed me, changed my soul? But now yeah, definitely were a little more skittish, and I don't know, maybe that will go away. It's as you know, time will just sort of, you know, smooth it out. But I tell you that I told you we saw grizzly when I went to home with your brother and I have a daughter with me. I haven't seen grizzly on this range in forty years, maybe longer. We roll in there, come to find out it's sound and three cups and taking a deer away from some hunters the night before. But it just really didn't like click. That was like right in that general zone. Well, the next morning we wake up and at gray light. We're crossing the big meadow and I'm glassing to the north end of it, and I'm looking. I'm like anything elk any deer becose they're big bears, and they get up on their rear legs, you know, looking in our direction. They're probably three yards away. But I mean, certainly having my daughter there played a big part. If you, like, I'm getting the hell out and you didn't have your daughter with you, If your daughter wasn't with you, and you would bay, I would never talk to you again. That's not true. Yes, it is. I would never ever talk to you again. Were you wearing you have a rifle on you? Yeah. When I heard that story, I was like, oh, it's because and I even said I would have done the same thing, because I can't imagine ever here in the end of it from my wife. Yeah, but it's not it's not just like on a on a you know, case by case basis of now, how do I fee want to run into bears? But just sort of this this bigger idea of you know, large predators on the landscape, us living with them. Because now as the g y e bears population grows, you know, my house, it's only a matter of time until one walks through my yard. I mean, it could happened today. It wouldn't be at all unusual. Montana is exploding with him, right, But but that's I'm just saying that. It's sort of like I'm just now having different feelings about how earlier I used to be like, yeah, great grizz bears everywhere, now like your anti grizz No. No, I'm just saying that, like my you know, something's changed inside of me. I'm thinking about it more, worried about it, and I just haven't come to a conclusion yet. But it's this is a powerful experience. Well, I like what you said about it, that you were saying you had all these ideas of what it would be like, and you had experienced false charges before, you'd experienced all that stuff. You had an idea what an attack would be like, and it was so so beyond what you could have possibly imagined. Yeah, I feel like I I scratched a nitche because I had always wanted to get a little bit mauled up and talked about getting claud marks across your chest like a long scar like a tattoo. Yeah, now I'm like, oh, that's what that's like. I don't want nothing to do this ship. But you know, one time I was sitting there trying to call a turkey and and and no joke, heard an exhale in my ear. But I mean, just I'm gonna do it just like this, and with my head around and it's a bear feet like I had called in the bear who was sneaking in behind me, Jesus, not a grizzy black bear that gave me the shakes for a long time. What did it do? Just it was just exhaled in my ear? What did you do? When I flipped around like I was just just you know, scared and stumbled backward. But I wasn't half as scared as he was once he realized what I was. I think he makes his I think at that time of year he makes his business walking around listen for hens to go off, and it goes eat their eggs or east the chicks and probably kills some of them. And I was calling. He was coming in. I think he got up to right where the part is where he like pounces but had a like WHOA, what the hell is at? And I just hear him like like I don't know why. I feel like the first thing I thought was that as a person, they're so quiet, never heard, and he was just I mean I could have poked him with my gun. I mean, just right there. They're so egg and yet they can just silently move over twigs and just have this weird way of articulating their their paws and their bodies. Our body was calling turkeys in New Mexico and looks and does a double check because he's on He's sitting alongside a two track, and the grass he stripped down the middle is a lion belly to the grass using the grassy strips camouflage, stalking him as he calls turkeys. Whoa, And that thing it's not gonna kill you, but it's probably gets to where it gets in range and it sees that movement and it's gonna pounds. I remember a guy reading about a guy who was was predator calling and when a bobcat came in and took his hat right off, hit him so hard. WHOA. Yeah, he's like making rabbit squeals, and the bobcat sees his hat moving, so that bobcat came in and like flew off with his hat when it hit him in the head Man Crazy. It's a wild world out there, man, it is a wild world. It's just most people don't experience it. I love it. I love yeah. I love the excitement of it. I love the dangerous parts of it. Yeah. No, I love it too, and I'd love it in many ways thanks to you. Oh. I can't mean to bring this up. This is our hundred episode. I meant to bring this up in the beginning, but I got distracted by the guy who heard the show open and thought its treet was falling. Um, this is our hundredth episode and the reason I wanted to do with you because I wouldn't be doing it if if it wasn't for you one inspiration into encouragement. I've told you before, your very generous person, and uh, I want to It's been fun to do this one times and um, well, I'm selfishly happy that you do it because I love listening to it than you. I really love that one the other day with the writer the fly fishing right, John Gear he was great. So yeah, So this is a small token of my appreciation to have you on right now because it was it's been fun doing this and I wouldn't I honestly would not be doing it if I hadn't seen you do it so well, and then have you say that I ought to be doing too well. It's a travesty if you didn't do it, Because I think your voice is so important in this really conflicted world when it comes to wildlife and hunting and conservation and all of these different subjects. Your your voice is incredibly necessary. And there's only so much of your voice it's going to get on your television show, so much of your voice is going to get out through the articles that you write or the books that you write. There needs to be more and your voice in the podcast around You're You're designed for podcast. Man, you could go forever. You have so many stories, you're so you're so articulate. It's like it's for you. This is like it's the perfect venue. It really is. And when I first did the podcast with you, I was like, why this guy have a fu podcast? Like you show a podcast, People get mad at me and I tell people they should have a podcast, Like, hey, bro, everybody just need to have a podcast. I used to get these comments and like a lot of people need a podcast, and there's plentying room for everybody, Yanni, you two, you've been in it for a long time. Though, Yeah, I've done. Next week it's I can't. I can't let you leave without I was with Callen last night and he was he was grabbing me like, when when are we hunting again? When are we hunting again? Because he hasn't been hunting since that last trip that we did in was it a Laskar or was it the turkey hunting? Turkey turkey hunting was the last one. That was the last how's he doing? Is good? He's good, he's doing good. The other day their day, I did an event in uh In, Oregon, and a guy came up and asked about the Cashmere Killer. We'll get one on the books. No, I think I think we should, absolutely, because now we're starting to get to the time of year, we're looking ahead of next year. What do you think about going to Lanai. Let's go, b It's the greatest thing ever. They're super delicious, and you're in paradise. It's just seems surreal your bow hunting and you look to your left and it's the Pacific Ocean and it's gorgeous, it's amazing, and it's it's also necessary. When you talk about conservation, I mean they hire people, they hire snipers. That's one of those places where the conservation goal is to get rid of the animals. Yeah. They literally told me when you go there goes everything you want to shoot, shoot it everything you go. Yep, there's no number. Nope, no number. You have a license. Once you have a license, you can shoot as many as you want. Like you shoot five six deer. If you wanted to be crazy, you can have deer for a year. They're amazing, amazing. They're super tender too, like shoulder meat and and like hams, taste like backstraps or a tenderloin. It's like super tender. They're delicious. And I had an old buck too and still like really tender meat, really good. I mean this it's just a weird environment. I'm sold. Let's do it. And you can shoot with anything, rightful. You're dust off? All right? Dusted off's got the cashmere. Killer's got a bow? Really yeah, I'll bring him here, I'll have I'll test him on the range. We'll we'll start, let's start training. And got a little suction cups on the end of the arrows, all right, Joe Rogan, host of The Joe Rogan Experience. Um, really good stand up that makes you want to pisch your pants, all kinds of stuff. Color commentator. I love things you would sell me at three jobs. Yeah, yeah, so I think it's more color commentary for the you have to see stand up comedy podcasting. Yeah, it's pretty much just those three done some TV and film act and those things too. Yeah. I don't know anymore though. Thank you, Joe Rogan, Thank you thanks for introducing me to hunting. Problem is all you form at all. It's such a difficult dating relationship here and it works out well for me and you. It's a it's very hard for someone who's in their forties to figure out how to hunt, you know, So for me to have you mentor me and take me out like that and show me how to do it, and then take me to Montana into like a real you know, the Missouri breaks, real wild environment. That was a life changing experience. Like I said, to this day, that moment of cooking that deer over that fire after a successful hunt or callendar callendard killed, I killed. We're sitting there and we're eating and we're enjoying it and taste delicious, and I was like, this is it, this is the solution. I'll add too as a final thought, is uh that's a national monument all right? Thanks for joining us. Two