00:00:00 Speaker 1: Last summer, when Senator Mike Lee proposed a mass sal of federal public lands, we learned two important things. First, we were reminded that there is a firmly entrenched group of politicians and policymakers in Washington, d C. And beyond with increasing influence and an unending desire to see our federal public lands either sold off, transferred, or otherwise milked for every. 00:00:26 Speaker 2: Dollar they're worth. 00:00:28 Speaker 1: And secondly, and I think of equal importance to remember, is that we learned that when Americans of all types stand up and speak out in a big, loud way across the rural urban divide, right to left and everywhere in between, when we unify across our different interests hunters and anglers, campers and climbers and so many other types and demand that our public lands be protected and stewarded for future generations. When we do that, we can in fact make a difference. And last summer we did it the sale together. The question now is how can we do that again. My guest today is someone that I believe can help us answer that question. Fitzghal is a climber, skier and outdoor adventure of all types and the founder and host of the dirt Bag Diaries, arguably the most influential and beloved podcast in the outdoor adventure community. Through the dirt Bag Diaries and other projects he's worked on through his company, Duct Tape than Beer Bits, has become one of the foremost voices in advocates for public lands within that community. 00:01:36 Speaker 3: I've invited Fitz to join me here. 00:01:38 Speaker 1: Today to explore his personal journey from outdoor adventure to advocacy and to brainstorm about the awesome potential there seems to be for the hunting and fishing community and the outdoor adventure community to further unite. 00:01:52 Speaker 3: In defense of our public lands. Thanks for joining me. 00:01:56 Speaker 1: This is Future Wild presented by Conservation First Bank. 00:02:07 Speaker 3: Fitz Cahol, Thank you so much for joining me. 00:02:10 Speaker 2: Oh, it'scite to be here. Yeah, thanks for having me Mark. 00:02:13 Speaker 1: Of course, I've I've followed your story for I guess it's almost twenty years now, Fits, and I know that you started the early days of your outdoor life with a certain sense of freedom, with a certain sense of you know, ability to go and do whatever you wanted in the outdoors in the while chasing these things. And then at some point you had kids, You had a family, and that changed things at. 00:02:43 Speaker 3: Least to some degree. 00:02:45 Speaker 1: And I wanted to start here because, and it might seem come an odd place to start, but I wanted to start here talking about your family because when I had kids, and when I had a family, it. 00:02:57 Speaker 3: Changed for me so much. 00:02:59 Speaker 1: It shanged not just how I recreated in the outside and how I went on outdoor adventures, but also how I thought about the future of these places and these things. So I'm just curious fits if you could walk me through what that evolution was like for you, going from someone who was a solo adventurer out there chasing goals and these big, wild places, to then eventually having a couple of little ones following you and your wife around, and how that shifted both what you did and how you felt about all. 00:03:30 Speaker 2: Well, Mark, now I'm chasing them, which is even crazier. It's like it's the tables have turned. Yeah, no, it's so funny. I mean, I have very clear memories of that moment in time, that sort of transitional moment of going from you know, having be Beck and I, you know, we were incredible adventure partners together and then you know, we weren't sure. Starting a family wasn't something we were like one hundred percent sure of when we got married and when we went through that process, and I think through time, you know, we worked, we worked through that understanding of like, this is something we want to do together, this is the next chapter. And and I remember, like, especially like kind of in the months leading up to our first son, so many people being like, it's going to change your life. And I'm like, duh, of course, Like it's like I'm not an idiot, like like change is constant, and and I think that was something that I very much was like ready to embrace and ready to grow as a person for it, you know, like on that level, I definitely I felt like I like I wasn't one of those people as like, oh, it's going to change nothing. I was like, I, clearly, this is going to change who I am, and it's completely altering my course through adventure and through my career, and and and I but I had the sense that like I wanted that because I felt like it was going to be grounding in a way that would be really powerful. And of course was all that, and it's you know, for us, it wasn't some I mean there certainly was like one day we had a you know, empty house and one day we had a you know, a kid in it. That for sure happened. But our evolution wasn't like it wasn't just like before and after, Like there there was a lot of I mean, I think the ten years after I did a lot of incredible things. I had to go on a lot of incredible adventures. I'm going to work on a lot of incredible projects where it very much felt very real and alive and and and like on a lot of levels, it still does that. You know, I still feel like I'm going and doing things that challenge me. I'm getting to go kind of follow my curiosity into the to the forests and into the mountains, and and you know, it's not as much as it used to be, but it's still very much a part of my life. Yeah. And it's interesting too because like, like I hear that, Like I think sometimes when you have kids, it it gives you a sense of like I need to look further ahead, right And like sometimes on the level of being like, oh man, I need to save for retirement, right, Like it happens in different ways, and and I think that I definitely already before we had kids. I definitely kind of had that sense of, huh, there's something deeper and and and I've had I've derived so much joy, you know. It's like my career is based upon public lands, my uh, my joy, my who I'm friends with, like all these things, Like it was all my life unfolded in these places, like on a deep, deep level, and they were so intertwined that I think even before having kids, like I had a sense that at some stage I was going to need to evolve into an advocate for these places. And that was something that that I was that I was like, you know, I'd read enough, you know, I'd read I'd read enough about you know, whether it's even just as far back as like Teddy Teddy Roosevelt or John Muir and realizing that they they started in really similar situations where they were just passionate about the craft of being outdoors. I mean, for Roosevelt it was being a hunter, and for me it was being a climber and and kind of like an original dirt bag in a lot of ways. And so I think that that through my understanding of the history of climbing and the history of the outdoors and sort of modern recreation. Like I understood that this was a part of the whole thing and that at some stage that would be you know, it would be like a joy a joyful responsibility to do that. And I think it happened maybe a little bit earlier in my life than I thought it would, just because of the nature of what was happening in our world between the sort of you know, just the clear reality that the public lands were just in a bull's eye target for some of some of you know, for some politicians and corporations essentially, And so I think that pulled pulled me in earlier than I thought I would, and it felt right, Like I feel really proud of it now as a dad, where our kids see it, they see us like shouldering that responsibility, and they ask about it and they get it. And so for me to be able to like pass that on almost sort of like osmosis really because it's just part of our life, it's a cool, cool thing that I think that they get to see. So yeah, I feel like it's I don't know, it's such a big question because I'm like, on one hand, it's like this responsibility, but it's just this gift that has ended up in my life. 00:08:38 Speaker 3: How have you handled that? 00:08:42 Speaker 1: You know, sharing this with your kids, Like it's one thing to introduce your kids to the outdoors and make them feel capable and competent out there and have fun like that's that's obviously a huge part of that journey. But then that second part, that kind of shift from just being a user to being a contribute or an advocate or or just caring. Yeah, I've thought a lot about this over the last eight years as a dad. Where I'm I'm torn on one side, I want my kids to understand what's going on to some degree, and i want them to to have like a growing conservation ethic themselves. I'm hoping to instill these same ideas in them. But then the other hand, I'm also worried, like I don't want to fracture their youth with too much worry or with too much of this this heaviness that I think some of us feel when we consider the future. 00:09:38 Speaker 3: I also want them to just have that pure joy of the outdoors. Right, how have you how have you attacked that? How have you address that? 00:09:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such as it's a great question because like I think there you know, there are so many like like between the tacks on public lands and certainly like you know that it's like I don't know about how it is for your for where you live, but we have smoke season, right and to sort of explain to your kids, like this wasn't really a thing ten years ago or twenty years ago, this wasn't really part of our world, and so they're gonna have questions about that kind of thing. And you know, I think as the age, I become more and more just very open about how I feel about it. But I also think it's like kids deserve to be young, Like kids deserve to get to have that experience of of like unfettered joy and wonder, and you know, it's like I think that I work really hard to give that to them. And I think even as young adults like like it's you know, I think it's like I think even our younger you know, like the younger people in our community, like they deserve to go and have fun, and they deserve to go and have these experiences. And you know, I think for us, it's like I hope with the kids like that I teach them there is a pathway into this and there is a you know, the like I think that we ride mountain bikes a lot too. You know, we climb, we backpack, we do river trips, we you know, do a lot of different things, but a lot of times we during the summer, we mountain bike. And in that mountain biking community, there's often like this sort of like no dig, no ride. And the idea is that you've got to help maintain the trails or help build the trails. You have to put in the sweat equity in order to really feel like you're a part of the whole thing. And and so it's like that's like a really simple way for me to bring the kids into that idea of like, hey, this stuff doesn't exist without us as a community working together to make sure that it is cared for. And that's a that's a great you know, like they don't have to go to Washington, DC. Like you know, that's that's mom's jobs. She can go lobby, Congress and Washington. That doesn't need to be their job right now. But for them to be like, oh, I pick up a shovel and I put in time and I do this thing, that's like a key. I just feel like that's a great way to facilitate that. So that's kind of how we've been handling that. And you know, I do, like I worry about that, like I worry sometimes about like the heaviness of some of the things surrounding this world, but like I also can't control that. And you know, it's like it's it's one of those things that this world is a little bit chaotic right now, and they feel it and they understand it, but at the same point, they can just kind of check out. And I see them go to the park, I see them go skiing, I see them like and they're just lost in it, and that I kind of have faith in that. 00:12:36 Speaker 1: I gues, Yeah, I think that's that's so key, is making sure that that real connection to these places or these activities like that is like jet fuel, right. I mean, when you're out there out there in the mountains, whether you're hiking or hunting or fishing or climbing whatever, like that just fills you up with this joy and this love. And I think that's what then leads to people, you know, having enough, you know, give a shit, then. 00:13:00 Speaker 3: Do something about it. 00:13:01 Speaker 1: So you got to start there and then to your point demonstrate yeah. 00:13:05 Speaker 2: And I think the the awesome part about too is like knowing that those kids, like natively will like be like, oh I love this thing and I'm lost in it and I'm just I'm just present like as an adult, Like that's awesome to sort of realize like I need to tap back into that, I need to tap back into that joy. I need to tap back into those experiences so that I have like my head on tight, like you know, like I am I'm ready to do all the things, to do all the adulting, but then also like I'm ready to kind of just get to work and lend my voice to the things I care about and you know, get through my job and you know, do all the things and show up. So it's like it's awesome because I feel like the kids have been this really good like reminder to just go, you know. For us, it's like, oh man, my my eldest my eldest kid is like I've ridden mound bikes for a long time and I'm not always like been the person that's like wants to go hit a jumps are big jumps, and he is He's really good. He's really good in the air and like at some point he's like, Dad, you got this, And I was like, and we kind of made a pact. It's like, Okay, if you go ride longer trails and like steeper kind of like more technical things, and you like, let me teach you how to do that. I will let you teach me how to go and hit these jump lines. And that's like an amazing thing to kind of like give yourself over to be like, okay, here's you know, at that time, I would have been like, here's my ten year old towing me. I'm following my ten year old down, and he's just being like, you got this, Dad, and you know to do that, Like that's an awesome thing. And in those moments, like my worries about this world, about the things I care about, they go away, and and that's a that's a gift, as a gift to be able to have that. 00:14:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's incredible. I want to rewind a little bit to something you said a few minutes ago. 00:14:49 Speaker 3: You talked about how you, through. 00:14:52 Speaker 1: Some of your reading and through some of your kind of your own personal explorations, you kind of struck upon some of this history. How we got these public lands and these opportunities and that led you down that kind of advocacy journey. 00:15:04 Speaker 3: Could you could you impact that a little bit more and kind of. 00:15:06 Speaker 1: Walk walk us through what that evolution was for you, Because as a as a consumer of Dirtbag Diaries over the years, I remember early on it was very focused on the experience, right there was there was all these great stories about your experiences and other people's experiences outside. And then at some point over the last ten years give or take, I started noticing more of these episodes where you guys were talking about in dangered spaces and these different public land issues. Then of course in social media, I think we've seen that, you know, become an increasing focus. 00:15:37 Speaker 3: For you guys. 00:15:38 Speaker 1: What was that trajectory like for you and how did your thinking evolve over that period. 00:15:42 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a it's a really good that's a good question, you know. I think for me one, it's it started diving into the history. There were from my side, there were like two people that I thought were pretty interesting and towards the history of climbing, and they were John Muir and they were David Brower and sort and to even an extent, like someone like Yvonn Chanard. I think there was this lineage and I saw that and you know that. You know, I was fortunate to spend a lot of time in collaborating with Patagonia for many many years, so I had someone who was very much alive and you know, at the thick of it to like look up to right at that during that part of my career, and that was that was really cool. And at that stage too, it was also like you could pick up the phone and be likeyve on, like tell me about this road route I want to, like, you know, like I know you did the first ascent of it thirty years ago. It was like still possible right to It was like a different chapter in the outdoor industry too. And and you know, I kind of like I Beck and I ended up taking this trip through the Sierra and our idea was like a lot of climbers they hate, I don't feel like this is the way in the hunting community. I feel like you guys are really good about it. Like a lot of climbers they complain about the approaches, like they they want to just do the climbing and they're like God, they'll approach the hike through the mountains it's so long, and I'm like, I got to say for it was like I like it all, Like I'm into this that the approach is like this is great. And so we set up this trip where we walked from the southern end of the Sierra to the northern end of Sierra and there, of course is the John Muir Trail that goes to the heart of the Sierra. And there because of that, because a lot of people hike that, a lot of people hid the PCT. There's like ways you could stash, Like we had friends and rangers, you know that were rangers up at the high camps and stuff like that. So we figured out, let's just spend basically a good chunk of the summer and never come down, you know. Like it was like the approach is the good part. We'll just keep approaching, We'll carry all the climbing gear, we'll like resupply out there. And it was really cool because like, not only had John Muird done that route essentially and that would become the John Muir Trail, but so had David Brower, who was, you know, one of the key leaders in the Sierra Club and just an incredible advocate for the conservation of lands and and you know, no matter how you feel about the Sierra Club, I think there's a lot of places that David Brower helped preserve that I think we're all really grateful for these days. And so so David Brower had also taken a similar trip where he like, did you know, over six weeks, like I think he like did fifty four new routes, which is insane, and it was like a different time, different chapter. I was like, that's so Burly and Beck and I we kind of just did that trip and it was like full adventure. We didn't it wasn't necessarily like this is for a cause or anything like that. It was just like us to have this experience. And that was a really impactful thing for me, where just to even think about following in the footsteps of other people that had managed to you know, turn their passions for climbing into something deeper. And I think that that that carried through, you know, for me, that it was the need. I think that I that I saw in need and I think that was where some of the shifts happened, is that we realized that we had a unique sort of of understanding of what was going on, you know Bea. Beca actually worked for the federal government for doing wildlife studies for many years. She worked in birds, and she worked in for psychology and how salvage logging after big fires. She had a lot of experience working with for service before she ended up running our business and with universities. And we realized that there was a certain point where it's like we had the background. There weren't that many people doing it. It wasn't say we were alone, but like there was this moment where we realized, oh, we can offer a service, like through our reporting, through our work, we know all these people, we understand the issues, we understand the sort of policy behind it. And that was the moment where we realized, like, you know, when you say to yourself, wouldn't it be nice if this thing existed? And that's like and then we have the skills, you're kind of like, oh I am that person, yeah right now, and that very much and kind of like the middle of the last decade was that awakening of being like, oh, we are these people. We are the ones that are gonna inside of our community. We're going to have to start leading around this for our generation and for the younger generation, and we just we just started doing it in the best way possible and or like the best sorry should retake it, like to say that we did it in the way that we could do it the best we could write. And it wasn't perfect and we didn't get it right all the time, but it was that was okay, Like we just started somewhere and you know, it was it was incredible. We got to you know, work on some of the national monuments and you know, like one of my favorite moments I think was, uh, you know, when there was the debate and the and the rollbacks of Bears Ears happened, that landscape and how it was funded and how it was careful was really a limbo because of like budget, you know, all these things. It's like and at the same time, all this attention had been brought to it, so there was increased visitation and there was this you know, clear need that there needed to be a visitor center that wasn't going to happen anytime soon from the federal government. And so we just worked with people on the ground there and then the broader community and then with foundations and we ended up raising you know, like I think it was like eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars part of it from Kickstarter, like the whole team. And there is like a there's an education center now that's been built without the you know, without the federal government that in a lot of ways is a sort of de facto almost like gorilla style visitor center for this national monument. And so there were just I think that there were these these doors that would open and we would just walk through them, and that's how that's how it happened. And today it's actually it's it's really like I was talking to someone about this recently, is like there are so many more people doing the work we were doing ten twelve years ago, and it's awesome, Like it really truly is awesome because like my if I didn't have to be on social media, I would not, like at this stage, I've been doing that for a long long time. I've been there since the beginning on a lot of these like I had a MySpace account, you know when I started, Like it is like like Tom was your first ride, right, yeah, Tom was my first friend exactly, Like I've been doing this long time. I could live without it, and I certainly could like live without getting on the on a you know, in front of the in front of the iPhone camera and like ranting that I'd be fine without that, And it's so cool to see that there's so many people doing that work right now and doing it really well and doing it really thoughtfully, and it doesn't you know it, it's it's great to see. Like, I just think that, you know, that was one of our goals was to elevate public lands and to elevate this idea that as as a user group, we have responsibilities. And I think, you know, it's actually funny because I feel like in a lot of ways, I feel like that that's existed a little bit more in the hunting and angling community than it necessarily has it in my community. Or it's just it's just been built into it, partly because you guys pay taxes to fund so much of the work that gets done to support you know, hunting and fishing, and we haven't traditionally, right, our industry proper hasn't traditionally. So I think that that was like a like a lot of times I would look over at the hunting and fishing community and be like, huh, we've got some work to do over on our side, and that's something that that I can help with and kind of bring people forward. 00:23:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've noticed that same thing that it seemed like the broader outdoor wrec community was a little bit you know, with obvious exceptions to this, there was some like reticence to like dive in wholeheardly on a lot of this stuff until you know, I mean that Bears Ears example, was maybe one of those points where it really started to pick up steam. 00:23:52 Speaker 3: And then ever since then. 00:23:55 Speaker 1: What would you attribute either that trend more broadly to the fact that there's this growing willingness to participate and to activate and or what has been kind of what's worked for you guys. I guess this is a two part question. Number one, what has worked from your end? And then number two, why do you think this has spread beyond just you guys? 00:24:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think that's a great question. I think that I don't want to cra I'm gonna get in trouble here, but I'm gonna go for it and like I'll kind of like poke at my own community and more in the history because I think it has improved a lot. But I do think that there was like the side sometimes, especially in the climbing world, where it was like, oh, we have this deep relation ship to the landscape, and then like they would sort of think that it was like so special and unique to like climbers, and you're like, and I remember falling into that way way back, you know, like when I was like really young, like nineteen or twenty, I think like, oh, it's just just like oh my, I'm so deep, Like oh, it's amazing session deep connection. 00:25:01 Speaker 3: Man, It's like. 00:25:02 Speaker 2: No one else has this. And it was like this weird thing because there was this disconnect and then a lot of times there was just this sort of hunger to keep doing the same thing over and over again to maintain that connection. But then it was like what does it actually really mean to be connected? And I think that that I think started to happen more kind of like in that in you know, from twenty fourteen, I'd say to twenty eighteen, I think that really kind of like started to people started to wake up that it's like there are a lot of people that are connected, and like this whole like idea of connect being more connected because you climbed harder or higher or further away from like it's just it's bullowney, right, And I think we kind of woke up to that, and I think a lot of people that that was pretty cool. Like I think that in the snow sports certainly, like Jeremy Jones, like he took on climate change and you know, that was like he felt this responsibility I mean of doing that and he he did it, and that was really cool. And I think that you also saw some of the people in the actual industry side, like you did see people from from I mean you saw ARII and you saw Patagonia kind of step up in that twenty sixteen twenty eighteen era when the sort of Jason Chafitz was threatening to sell public lands, like you saw the industry sort of step up and be like, hey, Utah, if you're gonna push for this, we're gonna we're gonna move our trade show out. And so that happened. And I think what I see happening now is like, which is awesome, is the is the community is not waiting for the industry. And frankly that's good because like movements are not led, like the movements don't have corporate sponsors, Like I'm just gonna be like blunt about that. That's the truth of the whole thing is like we as a community do not need our brands to do it. It would be great if they step forward, but it's got to come from us, right, And I think that what happened is that we did see the brand step up. We saw some of our like athletes and sort of our our legends step up and sort of take shoulder some of that responsibility in a lot of ways. That gave people a role model and in truth, like maybe some of us are better at it than the brands too. It's like not as difficult. I don't have to worry about brand standards. I mean, I've got a small company and it's kind of like how do you feel about that? And like, you know, I go to staff, like what do you think about this? And it's like decisions made in two hours and you're like, let's do it, you know, and like some reasons is this is gonna make us go broke? Are we going to like piss anyone off or like the wrong people? And we just do it? And that's like there's a freedom into that. And I think that that's that I think is what I've seen is that I think that kudos to the out kudos to like a lot of people in the outdoor industry that took risky decisions and stuck their heads out, like their necks out a little bit. And I'm sure that I know that actually felt difficult and scary for those companies to do that ten years ago. You know, I hope they can do it again. I think some of them are. But I also feel like we've grown enough as a community that we don't need them, that we're going to do this anyway, and like gets appreciated, especially the and for like the not for profits. They've really helped. I mean, like all of our not for profits have strengthened. We have better like calls to action, we have better alerts of like when things are happening, like all that is so much clearer and it's easier for us to kind of to lead. And I don't know, you know, I'm not as familiar with like the history of the hunting an angling community of like when that sort of kicked off and when that started to happen, But I know I think that that I think we had a good template. We had a good uh sort of like peer group to look at and be like, how do we emulate this? And I think we have gotten better at it, and now I do think it is I think it's a good thing that's being led by the community and not the industry. And I mean my hope would be that we can all like industry, not for profits, community individuals, that we could all kind of work together. And we've done it. There's been some great examples in the last like year, I think some really hopeful good examples of that. 00:29:17 Speaker 1: So, yeah, how have you been filtering and processing all of the different things that come down the pipe? I find that's like one of the biggest challenges that I have both personally that just for myself to understand this, and then also you know, for our company trying to help, you know, how do we direct how mediator thinks about these things or or speaks about these things. There's there's like a fire hose of news coming out, right, There's all these different things happening, and then you know, as of late, there's a lot of things that are impacting the resource, that are impacting public lands, right, and then there's this this fine line. I feel like you have to try to walk between taking it all in and giving it its rightful attention, while at the same time not giving in too like you know, first impressions catastrophizing, like if you make a big deal about every single thing, right, then it becomes nothing to anybody because there's too much. 00:30:15 Speaker 3: How have you been been able to. 00:30:17 Speaker 1: Process it yourself and then figure out what is actually the most important? Where do we actually take a stand on something in one of those moments? 00:30:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know. I think what it is really interesting there obviously was the Mike Lee moment that happened earlier this year, you know, and the sort of push to include public land sell or you know, basically like public land transfers in the in the budget bill. And you know that we could consider that the starting point, or we could look at it and be like that may have been the high water mark in terms of us all collaborating, And I kind of think it was probably the high water mark of everyone being able to to get together and do the same thing. Does it have to be that way? No, But I think it's like I think, you know that that sounds sad, but I'm like, well, what worked about that? Right? And the truth of it is is that everyone has a piece of public land that they care deeply about that they have like a core memory from you know, like like a lot of times, like when I talk to people, it was like, dude, what's your core memory on public lands? And someone will will just spin out this incredible story about connection, about being there with their dad or being there with their mom, or you know, some moment where they you know, maybe they proposed to their spouse or said, you know, like it's just like all these things, like people have incredible connections to these playoffs, right, And what's happened since that public land sell off sort of moment is that it's been divided up by landscapes. And that's really hard to address. And somebody who say is like from Minnesota, and I feel really grateful that through time, like I actually ended up getting spendifit amount of time in the boundary waters, like it was totally by accident. But I'm not in Minnesota. Amazing place like incredible, and like it's like enjoyed by a lot of different types of people with different recreation interests and all that, you know, and you look at that and it's hard. I think it's hard for somebody in say Washington State to be like, Okay, there's the mining, you know, boundary waters. Okay, that's you know, in principle, Like I'm not for that, but it's like not really affecting my daily life. And so I think what's happened since that public land sale off where we all like got together and did it, is that it's really been divided out landscape by landscape, and I think we need to come back and sort of say, no, let's agree on a few things. Let's agree that public land sales are bad. Maybe let's agree that while there could be some budget bloat for sure, maybe the institutions that are in charge of managing these are good things. 00:33:01 Speaker 3: You know. 00:33:01 Speaker 2: Maybe we could agree that there's like let's not have any more backroom deals between billionaires and corporations. Like, let's allow us into the process. Let's allow democracy to happen. You think, I think there's some like things that we could probably all agree on and let's argue about the rest later and we'll figure it out later. But like, let's find out what's core to all of us and activate around that. Because that's what happened when we stood up and stopped the public land sell off, is we were able to to in Unice Unison very organically agree that this was a bad thing, and so like, let's come back to what brought us together at that moment, and it's like, you know, public land sales bad, you know, not allowing public input bad, you know, not not listening to actual voters bad. And let's work from there, because like, I think that those are unifying things that we can build an umbrella from. And uh, just I don't know. I think I think we can. I mean, honestly, I think public lands can can be like a like for a lot of state. I think in a lot of places in the US, I think public lands could be a top five voting issue. Frankly, But. 00:34:18 Speaker 1: What's been the reaction you guys have felt from your community as you guys have increasingly spoke out on these things, and then even within your own personal community, as your friends and family have heard you talking more about this, Like, Yeah, I think a lot of people worry, like, oh, if I start doing this, it's going to you know, be a problem at my business, or it's gonna you know, cause controversy with my friends who vote differently or whatever it might be, Like, oh, have you handle them? 00:34:45 Speaker 3: Yeah? 00:34:45 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's great. I mean, I think that for us, Like, so, you know what, like the dirt baggaries is a great example, is it. When we started being like, we need to talk about these things. We need to talk about what's happening on our public lands. 00:34:59 Speaker 3: We need to. 00:35:01 Speaker 2: Kind of like shine lights on this. Like it wasn't met with complete enthusiasm. It wasn't like our our audience was like, Yay, I'm here for this. It was like wire, I don't stay. 00:35:12 Speaker 3: In your lane, right, I think we've all heard of that, sure, And. 00:35:15 Speaker 2: I'm like, I guess like a sign of it is it gets easier and I try to listen to like when I'm with people that don't see eye to eye to me, I'm like, and part of my job is asking questions. So I'm happy to listen and I'm happy to like hear perspectives, and I'm I think one thing we forget about, like on a societal level, is that two things can be true at the same time. You know. It's like, you know, like you can have this very clear experience with public answer, and I can have this very clear experience. I can think about this this way, you can think about it this way, and we might both be right, yeah, you know, And I think for me, I've just done this long enough that I have confidence in it, and I'm just kind of like, you know, if this is if this is how my company stumbles, so be it. You know, companies don't last forever period, Like you know, Its just it's just like that, that's that's the truth. So it's like, well, it's going to end some way, and I'm going to like live this by my values. So I'm just gonna do it. And and that's fine. And once I got over that, it became easy. And I think that that's the hardest part for everyone, whether they're an individual or whether they're part of a company or whether they're part of a not for profit, is to just be like once you start that first step, the second step gets easier and you just you fall into it. You realize, like, I'm going to make mistakes. I'm not going to do I'm not going to be a per I'll be like an imperfect advocate. You know, I'll regret a few things. But at the same point, like I am kind of following my values, and so I think it just it just got easier to do that. And and I I am not one of those people that is certain about their beliefs all the time, Like like I can poke holes in my own arguments and I can see that, and I think that's one of the harder things is like in this world, this current media landscape, it sort of demands total commitment. You know, there's not a lot of nuance. And I'm fortunately like with the Dirtbag Daries and the reporting we do there, we get to do some of that nuance. Like we get to go talk to the people that are for mining in flat in like the place like oh flat Oak Flat, Arizona. Right, We get to go talk to the mayor of the town, We get to go to the bounty waters and talk to both sides of this whole thing. And I get to have that nuance on that show. And that's an awesome thing. In Social less, so you kind of come at you it's like it doesn't work on Social and that's that's sadly a bummer to me. But it's also just I kind of had to get over that side of it, and I just try to, you know, I'm like, I'm sure some of my my takes will appear to be very lukewarm. 00:38:05 Speaker 3: Later on in life, and that's okay, like part of life. 00:38:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's part of life. I treat social media like a river. It's always moving. It's like, you know, it's like, yeah, you just gotta that water's gone, that water's down in the ocean now, and you're just like, this is where I'm at. I'm looking at the river right now, and it'll it'll flow downstream. 00:38:25 Speaker 3: So so you you talked a couple. 00:38:27 Speaker 1: Of minutes ago about how you believe that, you know, public lands have the potential to be a top five type voting issue, at least in some portions of the country, and how one of the unique things about last summer was how we were able to get almost everybody, anyone who had a connection to public lands, whether you hiked and climbed or hunt and fish or raft or whatever, everyone kind of stood together and said, hey, this is a horrible idea, right, and it's it's interesting that we have to flag that. It's interesting that that was so unique that we point that. I was like, oh, this is this one time that actually happened, right, because it seems like, you know, just in my very personal example, right, I live in this world personally in which I hike and I backpack, and my kid goes to a climbing gym, and we love to, you know, stand up, paddle board and do all these different things. And then we also hunt and we fish, and we've got all these friends that do similar things. But for some reason, a lot of times these two communities will say, like the ARII crowd hiking, climbing, whatever, and the hunting and fishing crowd, we'll call it the Cabella's crowd. 00:39:40 Speaker 3: Sometimes there's this. 00:39:43 Speaker 1: Sense that we're other that were different, or there's some tension there or some distrust there. And I've always looked at that as this massive missed opportunity in the past and this massive positive opportunity for the future if we could find some ways to like do what you just said, like hold two things that might not be exactly the same, but understand that there's validity to these different viewpoints. There's validity to these different ways of engaging with the natural world, but there's also a lot of common ground there. 00:40:16 Speaker 3: What's your take on. 00:40:17 Speaker 1: This kind of seeming divide at times between these two communities, while at the same time the power when they come together, like we saw last summer. 00:40:27 Speaker 3: How do you feel about that. 00:40:29 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is interesting because I I know, like behind the scenes, like there's a lot of people that would like us to work closer together and and and uh you know, and I think a lot of that behind the scenes work led to to be able to there to be collaboration in this key moment. And you know, I like, let me think about this for a second, and just like, well, like I guess I'm curious, like like I have. I mean, I grew up fishing, you know, I don't I take my boys fishing like once or twice a year. I like, I love it, even though there's like so many tangle knots and I'm just like, oh my god, but i still love it. The kids. The kids love it, right, But I'm not really immersed in that community by any means. I mean it is just like we're we're I don't know what the what the term for a gumby fisherman would be, but we are that, and you know it, like what is what is the hunting like, like what's the like let's let's hash it out. I mean, like what is the hunting community and the fishing community? Think of Like I'll say the helmet community or the Arii community, like the mountain bikers and the climbers, Like, what do they think of it with us? 00:41:42 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, this is this is good because I want to hear from you what you guys think about us. So I would think I will assume that the stereotype, right, everyone gets stereotyped and pushed into kind of an extreme caricature maybe of an assumption which would be that the that the helmet crowd, Arii crowd would be extremely urban, extremely far left, extremely anti hunting because you know, because of like animal rights arguments and things like that, and so those cultural differences would be why I think there has been historically from some parts of the community, like distrust in working together because it's like, oh, well they're going to someday you know, maybe they they they claim to be our friends right now, but actually they want to end hunting. Actually they want to end your opportunity to do this thing or to own a firearm to hunt, or whatever it might be. I think that set of beliefs, those cultural things, I think are probably what gives some people pause. 00:42:46 Speaker 2: Mhmm. 00:42:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, Now what about on your end when when your bodies. 00:42:51 Speaker 2: It's so interesting, right, like, and this is this is not my I mean, I think we're both talking in general terms here, right, that's not my Yeah, I think I think sometimes our community looks at the hunting and angling community and they like they impose a lot of the same sort of stereotypes about being like super conservative, you know, like they they imagine somebody with a maga hat, you know, and they imagine somebody that's like shooting beer bottles and leaving glass everywhere, right, and and you know, it's like they go in the same way to that sort of worst of the worst. I shouldn't even say that, Like it's just it's just it's not even worse and worst, but it's like they go to that same extreme and be like, man, I have nothing in common with that person. That's that's where we go to and and we and we look at it being like, I mean, like even on a on a tougher level, there are lot of people that do the type of recreation that are in big cities, and sometimes we're like, why are you, why are you rural people trying to impose like a lot of things on us, and and like we feel that way, like we feel somewhat conflicted about this is like sometimes I think there is this gap between like you know, sort of the coastal cities or like the big cities and being like, why are you making it hard for me to do whatever people in the rural world. And I'm sure you guys feel the same way, sure, And and it's so so I think that there is sometimes that we level the same stereotypes where we're like, Okay, this person doesn't really care. They are you know, they're voting one way, they like aren't thoughtful. I mean, I think that's like this weird thing that we level at the Hunting and Angley community of like it's it's some sort of like we're somehow maybe intellectually superior, like and I don't know if that's the case for you, but like that's that's like freely put like bs you know, but we come at it from that way. It's like somehow like. 00:45:12 Speaker 4: We're just like communing with nature, right, We're elevated, like, oh, we do it the right way and we have you know, I think sometimes we look at that and I think we have a little bit of a superiority complex, frankly, but that and we create that in our we like create a narrative that that fits that and that's a shame and that's not everyone. 00:45:31 Speaker 2: But but I think that that can be a shame. 00:45:35 Speaker 1: And I would say, like that's actually the vast minority probably on both sides that the force that viewpoint. And then sometimes though there are also there there's a bad apple example in any community, right yeah, Like there are people within the hunting and fishing community that could be that stereotype that you guys have of what a dirt or not a dirtbag, but like a hillbilly, you know whatever, hunter who is just killing stuff to kill stuff and makes all the bad things. You know, actually they truly are. There are some bad apples out there like that. And then there are some bad apples I'm sure in the ARII crowd who are elitists who have these you know, think they're better than everybody the stuff you said, et cetera. 00:46:18 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, but and why do we listen and yet we listen to those two or we like we put those two sides up on a pedestal when in the fact that there's like this vast uh like number of people that are willing to have like a conversation that are like you know that are like that that are okay with this, that that are like capable of seeing something from a perspective. It is like it's like human nature as we are. We look for threats and we find them and very sure we like sort of elevate them up. And yet I think my hunch would be that that our communities have they're like aren't threatening to one another. They're actually probably like pretty compatible. Yeah, but we tend to go one way, right, what's that? 00:47:05 Speaker 1: I think that it's like a negativity bias or something they call it. Like if there's one hundred items and one of those items is bad, we will focus on the on the night, on the one that's bad and ignore the ninety nine that are good. 00:47:16 Speaker 3: Right, That's just kind of like human nature. 00:47:18 Speaker 1: Yeah, So when it comes to this issue, though, I feel like there's so much overlap. There's so much that our communities have in common. There's so much that we like, our shared values are you know, so so aligned. Other than a handful of things that we might be doing a little bit different than this community and this community might do things a little bit different and we engage in different ways, but we all care deeply about wild places, open spaces, wildlife, public lands. So to your point earlier, there's this huge opportunity if if we could ever continue the trend of getting these two communities to not only be accepting of each other, but also be like, hey, let's talk and let's figure out how do we join forces more often? Because because we are, we are heard when we stand together and we speak together in ways that on our on our on our own, we might not be. And and I'm curious from your perspective, fits what what do you think? What do you think the hunting, hunting and it again, I guess I'm curious on both sides here, your community, the helmet crowd, what would put that community at ease more or help kind of grease the rails more to make this kind of collaboration more possible. I guess I'm looking for solutions here, like what are some of the ways that our communities can work together more? 00:48:43 Speaker 3: What makes that possible? 00:48:44 Speaker 2: M hm, Well, I think I kind of come back to like, like earlier you asked, like, oh, we're kind of breaking down about how the outdoor industry slowly, you know, found its voice, and then the outdoor community found its voice, and now that really the outdoor communities leading which incredible moment, right, it's a cool thing. So I almost think it's like coming back to that, it's like maybe it just starts with having these conversations, right, and like engaging with these conversations and thinking to yourself, like you know, maybe it probably just has to start on some individual level, right, and going from there. And it's like life's busy, Like I mean, in a perfect world, like you would take me out hunting, and I'd have enough time to go do that. And in a perfect world, I might take you out climbing, right, even I might even just thank you to like the like our urban climbing gym, right and be like, look look at all these people having fun, and you know, like look what's going on, and this isn't frightening. This shouldn't be frightening to anyone, right, And and I think that you know, there's not a lot of time, but I think that as we start to do this, I think it is it comes down to individuals. Like you know, all all companies, all not for profits, all movements are a collection of individuals and so it is a sum of parts. And I'm a deep believer in that. So I think it's like we start by doing this right, and then we go from we go from you know, we get to the point where it's like, all right, let's talk more rock, and then we start doing things together. That's the next step. Let's go do something together. And it may not be able to like you know it. Ideally we'd start with like recreating together and like you know, showing each other like how we experience that, but like maybe we just like skip it. Maybe we can like go go go create like a shared level of action for something, the same way we just did for the public land sales. Like let's go do that again, you know, like let's figure that out. And and the more we do that, the more likelihood we have of building deeper relationships. And ultimately, this is what it's like. The individuals and then the individuals that build relationships are what power movements power communities, right, And so you got to go, like you got to go do something with it. Like like one of the on a business level, a mentor was always just like you know, I mean, you can have the sweetest pitch in the world, you can make the most beautiful deck, and you can you know, like just nail your presentation and they're away. Was like just go, you know, mountain biking or take your client skiing or doing all that, and it's like, right, it's like that level of like that's gonna matter more than any presentation ever, and like that's kind of like a rural business, right, Like people know that in sales, right. And I think the same thing is like let's just go do something together because we'll build a we'll build lasting bonds if we could do that. And that has on an individual level, but it also means like, as two separate industries, as two separate communities, let's go do something together, because we'll start to build those bonds and they'll last, they'll last a lot longer, and they'll lead to more bonds. And and that's what it is, like we can you know, it's like starts, but starts with talking. Then it's like we get out of the talking and start to go do something, and then we can talk again, and then we can go do more and it'll build from there. And I think that ultimately is the template for moving forward, like of just figuring out how to go do something together. And I think we're set up well for that because we just did. We just went and did something together, and now we're set up well to go do something again, and we just got to go put the data on the calendar and make it happen. 00:52:25 Speaker 1: And I think I think that's so true. And the word that jumps out to me as I hear you say all that, and what I think maybe a lot of this kind of can be distilled down to is simply trust. It comes down to trust. And you can build trust through relationships, through shared experiences that lead to shared values, or that expose and illuminate shared values, and then that trust is like that connective tissue that then allows you to build and build and build and do stuff that matters because you have that foundation. And so you're right, I hope that you're about what you said ten minutes ago, that being that the Mike Lee sale was the high point too. I hope, yeah, I hope that that is not the case. I hope that that was just a trust building moment for our communities that forms just a foundation. And that because because now we have something to point back to and say, hey, you know what, we had a set of share values on this thing, and and while we approach it, maybe in different ways. Sometimes we said today I don't care. Today, I'm going to go to the capital with you. And I might wear camo and you might wear TIEDI or whatever, but who cares. 00:53:37 Speaker 3: I might climb and you might fish or whatever, but who cares. 00:53:41 Speaker 1: Uh, we can trust that we both care about this core thing and and that's something worth celebrating and then building off of. 00:53:49 Speaker 2: Ye. It's like it's like I have the saying and trust equals wealth. And there are many different types of wealth in this world, right, Like there there's obviously a financial wealth, there's there's wealth of power, there's wealth of family and all these things, right, you know, And but it's like all wealth begins with trust. And if we want to be like a wealthy, broader outdoor community, it's got to start with that, right And and like that that is and it's funny. I just I just smiling because like he's talking about like showing up with the Capitol building. I have a dear friend and he is a wicked he owns a business. Uh, we recreate together. He's he's a you know, through life, has been a very accomplished, very good climber, and he is he grew up kind of raising animals, and at some point he became a vegetarian. Uh, and so he's like he is a pescatarian, like he'll fish. But then oddly enough he's like this amazing gear designer and he owns this company. They designed all sorts of crazy things for companies of all different shapes and sizes. But he's worked a lot in the in the hunting and fishing thing, and so he actually like has designed a lot of like badass outerwear for some of the the hunting and fishing companies. And one of my favorite things is that he Saratory is one of the rattest peaks on the planet. It's super gnarly. It is like it's down in Patagonia. It's like a very coveted thing. And when he did when he climbed that peak, he did it in an all camo and it was just like, man, it's like the gear. You know, it's like it's so funny how you realize like, oh, yeah, it's camo, but you know it's like it still works in both settings. I think that that's like a like a good thing is like let's just yeah. I think it's like, let's show up together. I'd be good. 00:55:41 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so to your to your earlier point, while life is busy, open invitation. If you ever want to go fishing or try hunting or something like that, you have an open invite to do something like that. Yeah, there's something to be said about leading public in publicly facing ways. 00:55:58 Speaker 3: So I'm game of that. 00:56:02 Speaker 1: And I also want to throw out one last I guess thought exercise for you as we look forward into the future. You know, I think all of us who care about public lands and wildlife and the environment and these different things that we like to do, Like, right now, it feels like there's so much happening. There's a lot of negativity, there's a lot of concern about what's happening. But at the same time we've just talked about, like we're seeing these examples of our communities coming together. We're seeing both the honting and fishing and the outdoor community in their own ways finding their voice, finding you know, new ways to advocate for these things we care about. From that perspective, you might say like, hey, those are some positive trends that could lead to good things down the road. You know, as a father, when you look out ten years from now or fifteen years from now when your kids are adults, How do you view where we're headed? Where do you think we're going to be ten to fifteen years from now when it comes to these sets of issues that we're you know, engaging in so fervently right now? 00:57:04 Speaker 3: Do you feel like we're headed? I guess I won't. I won't. I want to answer for you. Where are we head? 00:57:11 Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh man, I don't know. I feel like that. That's like I I like there, you know there, I feel like I'm like failing as a as a social influencer with a with like a like admitting uncertainty. I you know, I think that there's if I had to sort of predict, I think we're going to have to deal with you know it, like as as an angler. I mean, right way is it? The Bitter Root was like almost dry last year? Is that right? The bitter Root River? What? 00:57:44 Speaker 3: There was a number of the Jeffs. 00:57:48 Speaker 2: And like, so we're going through this and like we're we're going through it with fire, We're going through it with all these things. Like there are like big issues happening with our with our the places we care for, like regardless of like extraction or whatever, like the rallies, Like we're going to have to work together and we're going to have to to kind of like figure it out because it's all interconnected, you know. Frankly put, Like, man, the fires in La have an impact on somebody who's living in the sort of like outskirts of town and a rural place, their ability to get insurance. Like it's all interconnected and all interwoven. And I do think that there is a reality of like I think that's becoming clearer is that there's actually fewer divides between where you live and where I live. And we we want pretty similar things, like we want our kids to have a better life, We want our kids to have a good education. We probably you know, we don't want our houses to burn down, you know. And we want to be able to have places where we don't have to worry, like where we get to experience joy and we get to experience connection to the natural world, to something greater beyond us. Like there's a lot that it's going to I think there's there's gonna be a lot that brings us to the table. And my hope is that when we come to the table, we can set aside the things we like maybe disagree on, and like think about the things that we do agree on and that we do share, and sometimes like that, sometimes that collaboration it's hard to create, you know, Like like like we said, it's like you have to start there. You have to talk first, start with talking, then you have to go to action, right, And I think the reality is that sometimes you also just get pulled to the table because of necessity. And I do think that in the coming years, like I think that that will become more of a reality, is that we get pulled to the table because of necessity, and that my hope would be that when we do that, we're able to kind of like figure out what are our shared beliefs and our shared concerns, Like you know, I think about Maslow's needs a lot and like where that is and like where we all fit in that. And then maybe for like it's not to say forget about it's you know, different things mean different things to different people. But at least in that setting, is that we can like focus on what we share and less about you know. It's like we're never going to be nearer images of each other as people. It's just like won't happen shouldn't be the expectation, but when that time comes, we remember that is that there's like wonder and strength and being different. And that's my hope. And I do think we're like it or not. I think we're going to be heading in that direction. And I think maybe it's already happened right, like, like, I really too hope that the Mike Lee moment wasn't a high water mark, that it is like something that we can look back on and say, like, what happened there, take it apart, examine it, and then figure out how to repeat it again and again and again. And then I think if we do that, I think we have a shot at like making sure that our kids get to experience something similar. It won't be the same because the world's always changing, but like maybe they get to find that same joy, that same connection, that same moment of being like do I want to have a kid? Do I want to share this with the next generation? Is this something like they imagine taking their kid out and feeling that like the cold of a river, you know, or they take their kid out and imagine their kid experiencing that quietness of sitting behind a duck blind the same way that like, I hope my kids like kind of get to understand and interact with risk and fear through climbing that they get to hear like the whisper of like perfect snow sliding across skeis. Like, that's what I hope, And I think I think that that if we come to the table and we accept that there are differences, I think will help that younger generation to get the next younger generation and so forth and so forth and so forth. And I think that's that's my hope, and I that made me sound like a pipe dream, but I do think that I think it's possible, and I think it's like when that moment when we like get called in because of the realities that are facing us, that we accept that and that we I don't know, we come prepared to listen and also share. 01:02:23 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm I'm right there with you, Fitz. I think that's possible, and I think that that will be our route to a better future and to a future where our kids have those opportunities. So I appreciate you sharing that. I appreciate you sharing all of this and for leading for so many years through your platforms, through sharing your experiences through you know, how you've inspired audiences to engage with the natural world, to explore, to experience it because I think, you know, we talked about this earlier, at the beginning of any pathway to becoming an advocate must be a connection to nature, to public lands. You know, none of this happens unless you have that experience, that connection and that love. And uh you've done a great job of helping inspire and encourage that for so many people. 01:03:15 Speaker 3: So thank you, Fitz. 01:03:16 Speaker 2: Thanks for saying that. Yeah, No, it like one thing, you know, it's like funny, I just like I just sort remember that. It is like I remember, you know, having done the podcast, like like you all have done the same, like the Meat Eater is, like I remember that being like I can't remember when Steve started the mediat except like what year was exactly about, Like, oh, what's this? You know, like, well this is really interesting because there weren't that many of us at that moment in time, and I remember listening to that and then I remember, uh seeing like kind of like the beginning. I mean, I feel like it was sort of early in the streaming thing like the Mediator television show YEP and I remember like sitting down to be like I should watch this, I should watch this and listen. I remember watching the Meat Eater and being like, this is the same thing I'm doing, Like it's the same exact thing, Like we share so many of the same is here, and it's just as different. It's like replace, like like, well, there's even mountains. The whole thing about it is, there's tons of mountains in Botol. It's so similar. It's like replace like, uh, moving very fast with a helmet on and moving very slowly with intention, and yeah, it's the same thing. So yeah, yeah, you all have done a great job too, And I appreciate it. And I appreciate, like, you know, for the people, for the people listening in that community, like like I appreciate what the hunting and angling community has done, you know. And I think you've been a you've been a good role model and a good for us to like look look towards. And I'm appreciative of that, you know, And and and I hope we can kind of just build strength together. 01:04:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I'm excited about. I'm excited about this being one of the one of the next steps towards further collaboration towards more work together, and and you know, it's been great to see this build since last year, and and I'm I'm excited about where's So let's let's make a point to check back in on this some handful of years down the road. Fits and hopefully we'll be celebrating a bunch more of these projects together, collaborations between our community and and good outcomes for wildlife and wild places. 01:05:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll extend the invitation back if you ever want to go climbing or I mean, I know you do climb, so like I don't, I don't mean to do it, but like the same thing. Let's like let's meet up and like figure out figure out a way to do that. So that'd be good. 01:05:27 Speaker 1: That sounds great to say. I climb is very kind of you. I am learning to climb with kids that kind of like you said, your kids are like trying to get you to do the bigger jumps and everything. I've got a son who wants me to really figure this climbing thing out because he's very into it. 01:05:42 Speaker 3: So I'll I'll take the guidance I can get. I'll take you up on this someday. 01:05:46 Speaker 2: Cool awesome all right, well, thanks to fit. Appreciate it.