00:00:11 Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance podcast. I'm Dirk Durham, and today my guest is a hunter, a hunting guide, and much much more. 00:00:22 Speaker 2: Steve Fernandez, Welcome to the show. 00:00:24 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. 00:00:26 Speaker 1: Heck yeah, man, I haven't seen you for a long time in person. I see all the time on social media. Yeah, probably the last time I saw it was a Colorado show or what maybe Western. 00:00:38 Speaker 3: Hunt, Western Hunt, Fist or no One in Salt Lake. 00:00:42 Speaker 1: Yeah, Salt Lake. Yeah, yeah, man. You kind of started off with your season with a red arrow. 00:00:52 Speaker 2: That's pretty awesome. Tell us about that. 00:00:54 Speaker 3: Well, pronghorn season starts in Colorado in August. So it was last week and anyhow, my wife and I, it's good friends of ours. We all hunting a ranch es to Trinidad, Colorado, and we just hammered him. It was hot and dry and we were sitting water holes and ended up harvesting some really nice bucks. So it's already over with and now it's time to shift gears into elk season. 00:01:17 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I've never hunted pronghorn. I've never I've never had a tag. I've never tried in Idaho, they have kind of an unlimited draw, so you have to put in for a draw for an archery tag. But it hasn't been super attractive to me to sit in the hot blind and sit there and sweat. I don't know if I'm tough enough. Man, you must be tough. 00:01:37 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tough, but I'll tell you what, when it does happen, it's worth it. 00:01:41 Speaker 2: So pretty awesome. 00:01:43 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know it's funny. Some years we'll have seasons where you're sitting in there for days on end, fourteen hour days, and then some days you hop in the blind in two hours you're tagged out. Like this year, we were just super. It was just fast. It was so hot and dry. We didn't have to put much time and so it was great. 00:01:58 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, how do you how do you take care of your prong horn after you shoot them? Do you tell me about that? 00:02:08 Speaker 3: So basically we have one of those big Yetti's, really big ones that can put out quarters in if you wanted to. And then at my house, I bought an ice machine just for for stuff like that, so we fill it up with ice when we head out and if we harvest one, we'll kape them right there, corner them up, skin them, and then they're on ice instant. 00:02:26 Speaker 1: So okay, we do. 00:02:27 Speaker 3: That right in the field as soon as we're tagging done hunting out there. So makes it nice. You don't have a mess when you get home. Plus your meat's cold and just makes it taste way better, you know. 00:02:37 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's crazy because I hear people who do it exactly like you. As soon as they kill it, they get the heid off, get that thing on ice right away and then and those folks always say, you know, they're great eat and they taste good. And I've had some some of their meat and it's just been fantastic. 00:02:57 Speaker 2: It's like one of my favorites. 00:02:59 Speaker 1: I really love of antelope prong horned meat. But some other people will say, oh, it's terrible, it's disgusting, it tastes bad, and I'm like, man, you didn't take care of it, right. 00:03:10 Speaker 3: Yeah, they probably drove two hours in the hot sun with it cooking on cooking the back of the truck. 00:03:16 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they do it like they do a deer in like November. Right, They just throw in the back and gut it, throwing the back of the truck and skin it at home or something. 00:03:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it must be. Yeah, how you handle it? 00:03:27 Speaker 1: So you bet for Inevor listeners out there who are going to go prong horn hunting, then man, take that get that hide off right away. Because I don't have any experience with it, but everybody I've talked to that loves loves that meat say the same thing. They get the hide off immediately and get it cool. 00:03:45 Speaker 3: So's the same with ALLCN September. I mean, yeah, you're you know how hot it is. And if you don't get that cape off them, even if you gut them whatever, they're spoiling, you got to make sure you get that heat out and pull them down, you know, mm hmm. 00:04:00 Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know a lot of times people kind of start at those hind quarters to skin them out. But man, I've uh, I like to try to get that neck opened up pretty quick sometimes just because especially if it's warmount that neck really holds the heat. I don't know if it's because the main is so thick there and it's just or you know what. 00:04:20 Speaker 2: That's exactly okay, yep. 00:04:23 Speaker 3: So it's funny like people will even shoot one in wintertime and if they gut him out in the field, and they by the time they get him to the process or whatnot, they're the next spoiling. And that's wintertime. That's just from heat being trapped in there. So like you said, best bet is to just get that neck opened up. If you're going to cape them, that's great, cape them right away and then get your quarters off. I don't even do. I just do the gutless method on ninety percent of my kills anyway, So that's the first thing I do is cape them. Get the heat out, you know. 00:04:51 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Man, unless you can load one hole with a tractor or something, and man, the gutless method is the way to go. It just I just feel like you're gonna unless you're gonna save the bones for something like maybe you're saving for dog treats or or or you're gonna make bone broth or something. Man, get that thing broke down. Leave the bones in the woods. You don't have to deal with it. You're gonna have to get rid of those, right You don't want to throw them out in the in the in the trash or dispose them correctly, depend on your state. But man, leave that stuff in the woods. Don't waste your time packing bones out. Yeah. 00:05:24 Speaker 3: You see a lot of guys in the back country with the quarter on their pack and you see a big leg on there in the hoof, I'm like, you're carrying a lot extra weight out of there when you could do bone the whole thing, did the gunless methan and lot less less pain on the back, you know. 00:05:40 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I've seen a couple of guys do that. Well, one of them in particular, and he's got pretty popular on YouTube. Dan Stayton, Oh, you like to give that guy a hard time because he packed one out like that with the hoofs, like the hoofs and everything on. 00:05:56 Speaker 3: But he's again freet so he's okay, Well he. 00:05:58 Speaker 2: Was working out right, you know. 00:06:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, but he's like, you know, shoot, they got back to the elk and they'd forgotten their knives and they didn't have something to cut those things off with. So yeah, I try to I try to cut those off as soon as I get that leg off, and that way I can seal that bag up really good. 00:06:14 Speaker 2: I don't want any flies crawling in there nothing. 00:06:16 Speaker 3: So you bet that's the whole key to having good meat is taking care of it. 00:06:20 Speaker 1: So yeah, well, Steve where do you live and where are you from? Are you from? You live in the same town you grew up. 00:06:26 Speaker 3: In or yeah, I sure do. I'm so. I'm in southern Colorado, little town called Trinidad. My wife and I have a little ranch east to town. So, yeah, I grew up out here since I was a young kid bow hunting with my dad. So started at a young age, at thirteen years old, chasing deer around with the bow, and ever since then I've been a avid hunter, you know. 00:06:45 Speaker 1: So that's awesome. Yeah, what was your first animal that you took with a bow? 00:06:51 Speaker 3: A little four corn mule deer with the old PSC nova. I remember little three metal pins on there, uh huh, and shot fingers and got it done. I don't think it was the best shot, but we did get him. 00:07:04 Speaker 1: Them all them old PSC novas. They had a really small cam on him too, like yep. But that's good for fingershooting, you know. 00:07:11 Speaker 3: Yeah, you bet, that's what back in the old days. That's what we did. You know. The rest had that little hook you just set your arrow on. 00:07:18 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, little upper rest or whatever. 00:07:20 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:07:21 Speaker 2: How long until it took you to graduate to like using a release eight? 00:07:26 Speaker 3: It's probably in my twenties, I mean took them the early twenties started. But then you know, we all started the bow hunting, but we didn't have the proper technique. We didn't know anything about draw links tuning in a bow. 00:07:39 Speaker 1: Like. 00:07:39 Speaker 3: So I look back all the big game animals I missed when I was younger, and I wish I knew now, like back then, You're like, I would have killed a lot more stuff. You know, Yeah, I missed quite a few of them, but I think we've all been there. 00:07:53 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, man, if I if I had a lot of these do overs again on on on big bowls and on misses and stuff, and it just equipment. It just makes me laugh thinking about like what you're saying about the equipment, not when not knowing about tuning. Bo's like I didn't know when as a kid, like paper tuning, at least at the archery shop I went to, which was a pretty good shop, big shop, but they didn't pay per tune nothing, you know, they they just kind of eyeballed your They had a little, uh one of those little deals they clip on your string. I'm not sure some some archery guys going to be like you're an idiot. But they put that little thing on the string that kind of stuck out there, and they kind of line up your arro make sure it was on there straight, and you know, you shoot it a couple of times and they're like, oh, I can see it going left or right, you know, flip flopping or fish tailing or whatever. 00:08:43 Speaker 2: So they make a couple of little adjustments. Yeah, you're good to go. 00:08:46 Speaker 1: And nobody knew about front of center, you know, I started in nineteen eighty nine. Well, front of center might have been a thing, but at least where I was at, nobody even ever heard of it. You know, front a center. Wait, FOC. That's the big rage now, and and everybody's so, you know, wrapped up in arrow weight and all that stuff these days. 00:09:05 Speaker 2: And man, we didn't We didn't know any of that stuff. 00:09:08 Speaker 1: And the elk didn't either, but they still died, you know, when we hit them with an arrow. 00:09:12 Speaker 3: Yeah, we got a few. But yeah, I remember the double X seventy fives. Remember the Eastern cart or aluminiums used to shoot when we were young. Oh yeah, I remember when I was young and I shot out a mule deer buck and he was thirty yards and my arrow flew like a boomerang. I was like, what the heck. So I get back to the truck and I have a little target back of my truck and I'm probably like, I don't know, twenty years old, and I shoot and I'm hitting far left, and I looked at all my arrows and they were all being you never thought about it back. 00:09:41 Speaker 1: Then, you know, man, And no matter how hard you tried, you sit around like, all right, I'm gonna straighten this arrow out because man, arrows are expensive. 00:09:53 Speaker 2: And then they would never they would never. 00:09:55 Speaker 1: Straighten, I mean, and then I think they even made arrow straighteners, but I don't think they were with a crap. 00:10:00 Speaker 3: Yeah, like you said, technologies come a long way, you know, just like the bugle tubes that you guys are making are amazing. And when I was a kid hunting with my dad, we had a little gas tube we'd blow through, you know, make a little whistle, and it was our bugle back then. So I mean, we had had things, but not like we do now, you know. 00:10:18 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's incredible the calls that are out there today. They're so much easier to use than then back in the old days. You'd done so much better and easier to use, and there's so much information on her how to learn how to use one too. Like back then, they were just like unless you had a buddy or something. I mean, there was I think maybe like a cassette tape you could listen to and have some guy tell you how to do it, but it wasn't super helpful. 00:10:44 Speaker 2: You just kind of trial and error. 00:10:45 Speaker 3: And then we switched into the promos calls when we were young, Yeah, watching the promos videos, and we thought we were something with those promos tubes way back in the day, you know, Yeah, they were the terminator. I remember calling bulls in with that thing. 00:10:58 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I called it a bunch with one of those I it. I took the mouthpiece that you stretched the little blue stuff off, and I cut it off flat to where I could just bugle into that with my we'll use that as you know, it's my diaphramic bugle into And man, I was like, oh that sounds so good. 00:11:15 Speaker 2: It sounds way better than the previous tube I had. 00:11:17 Speaker 1: It looked like kind of like a vacuum cleaner hose, you know, but yeah, I had called in a bunch of bulls with that and then eventually graduated into one of those tubes that look like a baseball bat. You know, I think that's what it was. Plastic baseball bats had cut down and threw a cover on and sold them as a bugle tube. 00:11:39 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:11:40 Speaker 1: So uh let's see what h what else do you do for a living besides going hunting all the time. 00:11:47 Speaker 3: What people think that's all I do is hunt, But actually I'm a I'm a master plumber, I was. I grew up in the trades like we have. I'm the fourth general or third generation. My son's a fourth generation, but we have a family owned plumbing heating company. So I do that. And then, like you know, I'm a honting elk hunting guy too, so I do that quite a bit. When I'm not bow hunting, I try to swing a few hunts in guiding. So yeah's busy schedule all the time. 00:12:12 Speaker 1: Man, oh man, it's that's got to be a lot, because I know, I know plumbers and and tradesmen, they're always always behind the gun, and it's like, oh man, never get caught up. 00:12:23 Speaker 3: Well, people know when it's when it's fall, they ain't gonna see me much. So Luckily, I have a good crew of guys that fell in for me. So that's the whole reason I do it, you know. 00:12:33 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, heck yeah. Well I got to ask what got you into guiding? 00:12:37 Speaker 3: Well, I just started when I was young, probably probably nineteen twenty when I started, just people wanted me to help them out. And I grew up guidance since I was a young kid, and I really didn't think it was going to turn into what I've done nowadays. So just a little by a little work my way up, and then now I got for a really good outfit in New Mexico. You know you've heard of It's for Maho Park. Yeah, world class bulls in there. So dude been there for many years guiding and got to harvest a lot of good bulls with hunters. So it's been great. 00:13:08 Speaker 1: You know that's gotta be so fun, uh, colling bulls in a place like that. 00:13:14 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great. You know the thing is too, like people think just because it's a private ranch, load with big bulls at al karn Elk. And let me tell you what, we get winded. They're gone, they're they're wild game. I mean, they're done. They're not pressured as heavy. But obviously these old bulls, they they'll circle you try to catch your win. They're not dumb, you know, they're big for a reason. So but being in that situation, being around so many out growing up, it's made me become a great public land hunter because I know olt behavior way more than I did when I was young. Being around so many elk, you know, so you just learned setups and out behavior and the more alk you're around, the more you're gonna pick up on, you know. So, like I said, sometimes you got to shift gears when you're in in public land where there's pressure. You gotta know how to adapt. But it's definitely a tool to not have, is to know how how elk work and their behavior and just what they're gonna do on different scenarios. You know. 00:14:10 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's so key. 00:14:13 Speaker 1: Honestly, I think for for folks who want to call elk and like you say, maybe a big giant private parcel, but elk are still elk. You know. I got to hunt on a huge piece of private here a few years ago, and in Utah, and the elk work, ag man, they you had to watch your wind, you had to set up right, you couldn't let they they were they were pretty tough. I mean, if you weren't set up right where they could come in and pick you off and see you or any movement they were, they were. 00:14:44 Speaker 2: Still wild ass could be so. 00:14:47 Speaker 1: But there was a lot more elk there, so you had a lot more encounters. But it was fun. But I can see exactly what you're saying about. You know, just more reps, more reps watching elk, calling to elk, seeing what works, what doesn't, how you know how you get picked off, how you how you can spook them away. So I think that's super super valuable. Yep. So now you're you mentioned your wife ane loop hunting earlier. Jess. 00:15:18 Speaker 2: What did did you get her into hunting? 00:15:21 Speaker 1: Or was she into hunting before you guys met, or how how she's so driven to want to go hunting all the time. 00:15:26 Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you what. Her dad was an avid trapper, So he's a big bobcat hunter trapper or whatnot a few years back he passed away. When I first met Jess, so she told me, she's like, I've always wanted to become a hunter. Little did she know when she got with me what was going to happen. So that's our lifestyle, that's what we do. You know. Now she's hooked, she's been she became a little killer with her bow. So it's it's pretty amazing to watch her progress over the years, you know, And I'll tell you what, she's a she can shoot that bow man for being a little petite gal. She gets after it and she'll get in there, she'll cut up quarters, pack about she'll she'll get after it. So it's neat having a wife like that, you know. 00:16:05 Speaker 2: Yeah, how much what's her drawweight on her bow? 00:16:09 Speaker 3: She's only shooting forty pounds, and believe it or not, she zips through them. We always make sure we have a cut on contact broadhead obviously so we can get some penetration. But last year she shot her bull with forty pounds with an iron wheel and put him down pretty quick, you know, And it's amazing, Like it's all about shot placement, which you know, like if you know how to shoot a bow and you could put it in the boiler room, they're going down, you know. 00:16:33 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. That was going to be my next question, like what kind of broadheads you got to shoot? Her. 00:16:40 Speaker 2: How heavy is her arrow? 00:16:42 Speaker 3: She's shooting four hundred eastern access, so there's a light arrow, you know. And but we just have a really good setup. Now they have the little collars on them, so they stiffen up the neck of it, you know. So but now we switched to interlock broadheads. Now we're we're working with with some good friends of ours and they're sponsoring us with the interlockheads and really good heads, you know, American made. 00:17:07 Speaker 1: So yeah, those things have been around forever since I've been bow hunting, I think. 00:17:11 Speaker 3: Yeah, since we were young. And they're innovating and making new stuff like any other company. So they have a head called the Falcon and it's a great, great broadhead and I'll tell you what, we we have great luck with them. They fly like phill points and just great great heads. 00:17:31 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome. Is it a three blade or a four blade? It is a three bladehead. It kind of looks like a muzzy trocar. So okay, yeah, really good head. Yeah, awesome. What other So you'll probably have some guided hunts as fall, You're gonna take some clients on. But do you have anything in the hopper for you or maybe Jess, Yeah, sure do. 00:17:54 Speaker 3: So I'm gonna guide one archery hunt and this will be in Colorado, open the high country. We're gonna be twelve thousand feet way up there, and we're gonna tounts of my country bools with a couple hunters that have been coming with me for years. Then after that, Jess and I are gonna start ramping it up. She has an ELK tech for she's gonna be bow hunting, and I'd like, I was telling you, I drew a really good tag here in Colorado. 00:18:16 Speaker 1: So that's gonna be fun too. 00:18:18 Speaker 3: A little lot of shape, so we'll see how it goes, but I'll catch up. 00:18:22 Speaker 1: You have to carry you probably have to hit the old gas station on the way to hunting camp and grab some of those little bottles that of those oxygen bottles they sell at the gas station in Colorado. Well, I'm gonna tell one on Phelps. He was hunting. Where was it. I can't remember who is Colorado? He went, yeah, I think it's Colorado. He bought one of those. He's like, man, I'm I'm out of shape too, and it's gonna be high elevation. So he he had one of those He's like, those stupid things don't work. But anyway, actually. 00:18:54 Speaker 3: I've had few people say they do, but I've never tried. 00:18:57 Speaker 1: Yeah, well maybe maybe you have to be ridden in pretty decent shape. I don't know. I have to throw Jason under the bus anytime I can. No, that sounds awesome. So so possibly is the tag you drew the possibility of like really big bulls and is there is it a an area with a lot of elk or is it. 00:19:18 Speaker 3: It's heavy dense populated area and like the average bulls in there running about three hundred inch, you know, and there is three forty three fifty bulls in there. But I'm a bowl hunter, dude. If for three hundred walks by me begling, he's getting an arrow, Like, yeah, that's what I'd live for. And I'm not going to pass up something like that. Yeah, if I kill three hundred and he makes me happy, that's what it's gonna happen, you know. 00:19:41 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's hard to pass up on a gift like that. If one comes in and does all the right things, like I have to shoot it. I got to do it. 00:19:58 Speaker 3: And that's the thing, you you know, when you're hunting public land, just two mature animals all you could ask for. I mean, if you if you have a passion for elk hunting, that's the trophy itself. Is here, going to be work in and coming in, you know. So that's how I look at it. 00:20:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had somebody ask me what success looked like on an elk hunt, Like what what? Excuse me? At what point do you feel like your hunt was a success? And I said, Man, when I can call in a bowl and I can feel like I completely fooled him and he thought I was another elk and he comes in. Now, I may and may not get a shot off or nothing, but if he comes in and he thinks I'm an elk, that right. 00:20:39 Speaker 2: There, to me is success. Like, man, I've I've called him in. 00:20:41 Speaker 1: I've fooled that wild animal and to think I'm an elk, that's I'm I'm happy as can be. 00:20:47 Speaker 2: I love that live for that. 00:20:49 Speaker 3: Now. 00:20:49 Speaker 1: If I get an arrow in him, or if i'm rifle on whatever I'm shooting, if I get him, just that's just icing on the cake. You know. Of course I want to get one, but man, if I can pull him, that's just that's awesome. It's so fun. You bet that's the. 00:21:02 Speaker 3: Whole key outcutting is here here in the Beagles. You know, that's another thing. Then September it's a magical time of year. The leaves are changing, the weather's getting cold, and just the experience alone, you know, that's amazing. I wish everybody could have witness that feeling. You know, they'd wonder why we have such a strong passion for it. But it's coming. A few more months or a few more weeks, and we'll be after it. You know. 00:21:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can sure appreciate that. My wife, it's funny. In the past, maybe I'll tag out early, but I'll keep going with my brother or my friend or whatever, my friends and she's just like, well you got you got your elk, it's time to come home. I'm like, no, September only comes around so so on. Like, especially if I've been at camp. You know, if I've been at camp with friends or relatives or whatever, and I. 00:21:52 Speaker 2: Got mine, you just said, it's it's it's bad. 00:21:56 Speaker 1: It's it's bad to like say, well, I got my axe. 00:21:59 Speaker 3: You later. 00:21:59 Speaker 1: But I mean you got to stick around camp. You know, you got to help out those who help you, right, That's for. 00:22:04 Speaker 3: They need the master caller, like you behind there working them, you know. 00:22:08 Speaker 1: Right, right, But but then like, man, I just live for that time in September woods, you know that, like exactly what you said, you know, the time of year, the airs clean and fresh, cool, crisp mornings and nice warm afternoons, and the color change. You know, you start the brush turn starts turning colors, and man, it's to me, it's the best time to be in the woods of the year, you know, in September. It's just so it's awesome. The whole experience is awesome. And then these crazy elk with these swords on their heads walking around screaming and trying to kill you or kill each other. We're not really trying to kill you, but it almost feels like it sometimes. But man, that's I love it. It's my favorite. So what's what's probably the biggest mistake that you see clients or maybe other hunters make when when nell hunting. 00:23:02 Speaker 3: Well, a lot of times they're scared to move. So that's the number one problem I have, like, or what I've witnessed, is you got a big bull working and he's coming, You're scared to move. A lot of guys like to stand in front of a tree and like give themselves away. I'm the opposite, Like if I'm calling for a buddy, I want to find like a little pinon or a pine tree and put them right behind there. And I'm back sixty yards working this bull, and I'm watching which direction the bull's coming in. So if he's trying to catch that bull, then I'll try to turn him to come the other way. And so basically what we want is that bull to come right past that tree while the bull's getting ready to pop out. That's when the hunter should draw before the bull even sees them, and then you stop them right when they're at fifteen yards broadside, you know. And that's a dynamite way that we get ninety percent of our elk. But like I said, you have to be able to pivot too, Like if you say, there's a guy calling in the back and this bull's trying to go to opposite direction, if you're behind that tree, you could pivot swing to the other direction and I'll get back and work try to turn them and come this way. But you don't have to be afraid to move, you know, Like these alca used to hear they want to hear noise. But the whole thing is, when you have a caller back there, you don't want to give your location up. You know, that's all right. I'm a huge fan of having a hunter behind a tree and having shooting lanes on both sides. Like, obviously you've got to find a good setup where you have a good window to your left or right. But sure, being behind a tree and having a caller back there working, that's. 00:24:33 Speaker 1: A deadly, deadly combo, you know, right, Yeah, I could see where that would work really good. Do you ever struggle with I know I've struggled with this one. I've had someone I'm calling for let's say, bull comes in but holds up and then kind of starts to leave, and it's time to move up, right, we got we gotta pursue right now, We got to set up again somehow, and then trying to communicate with the shooter. 00:25:02 Speaker 2: Come on, man, we got to move. 00:25:03 Speaker 1: And sometimes the shooter is just like I'm set up really good, I don't want to move. It's like whenever you said people don't like to move, I immediately kind of thought about that. Like I've struggled that way time. Sometimes getting that do it almost like a leap rog, like, all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna get where the shooter was at. Now the shooter needs to go up and set up in the next spot, you know, just to try to work this angle a little bit more. You ever ever have any issues with that or maybe maybe you set up different or maybe you don't do that leap rog thing. 00:25:33 Speaker 3: No, we will if you, especially like if you have a herd bowl with cows. A lot of times he's not gonna come unless you you move on him a lot of and what he what the big bull don't like is when you're in his comfort zone. So we've we've been set up where we're on the outskirts of that herd moving and the hurd bulls pushing, and we call him in a little ways and he cuts back to the cow. So what I like to do, just like you said, put some pressure on move, relocate, let him move down a little ways and set up on them again. You know. And a lot of times with these hurt bulls, you got to get close to them. You got to try to get around them and get beat them into the into where they're going and set up because a lot of big bulls will come charging in if you're within one hundred yards, if you're if you're further than one hundred yards, they're just gonna laugh at you and keep moving those cows, you know. Yeah, they're worried about a little satellite bull coming in and trying to get in the hurt. So, like I say, once you get close into a big herd like that and you can put pressure on that hurd bull, you'll you might even you'll kill them a lot of times, you. 00:26:32 Speaker 1: Know, mm hmm. Yeah. I always say, like, man one hundred yards or less, preferably less, man, if I can like danger, get danger close, like I'm gonna probably get picked off or almost. That's that's how close I want to because I know if I'm inside that circle, that bull is going to be more likely to come run over there and want to want to fight exactly. Yeah. 00:26:53 Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you a little story. I had a couple of guys with me from back in New Jersey where we're working this big bull and he we couldn't get on him, and I watched where they went up this draw and they bedded in the dark timber, and it was early in the morning, so they didn't want to go back to camp. So I was like, well, do you guys want to go put some pressure on him? And they're like, let's go. I said, all right, So we had we wait for the good wind. We slipped in there, and I could hear his cows mewing in there. They were betted down, and I could smell them. We were right in him. They were right over the hill from us, probably fifty yards. And I get the phalps tube out and I rip a growler and I hear wrong. I told already, knock on, and I run back out there and I'm cal calling back there. This bull jumps up, leaves his cows, and he comes in looking for a fight. He literally almost ran over the hundred at ten yards, and the hunter was shaking so bad he couldn't. 00:27:45 Speaker 2: Even draw his boat back. 00:27:46 Speaker 3: He's like, oh my god, dude, that was like a dinosaur coming at me, you know. But yeah, like I said, you put pressure on a big, mature, hurt bull and you get in there, press in their comfort zone, they're gonna come at you, you know. 00:28:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I love that. That's so so awesome. Do you think those those big herd bulls when you get them in a situation like that, you think, do you think you're more likely to call in a big, mature bull in that situation versus like, let's say a train and a half year old bull or something that has cows. 00:28:22 Speaker 3: Well, it's those satellite bulls, you know they are. They come running in. They're teenagers looking for love, you know. Soyah, but them hurt bulls. I don't call them in and like unless we do, like we're saying, and we're close and tight to them. Yeah, but like early season, this is what another thing that people overlook. They want to hunt peak rut all the time. You get after it the first week of September, when those bulls are just getting going. You might not think that they're looking for cows yet, but they are. Once the bulls hardhorned, their test aution levels turn up, and that's a good good time to call bulls in, especially if you can pin one down. I'll tell you what. They'll come in. Like, there's been a lot of times early in the season where you think there's not a bull coming in and you're calling, and then you take one step in there eas it takes off running, you know. But oh yeah, that's a really good time to kill a big bulls early in the season, you know. 00:29:14 Speaker 1: M do you find more Do you find more luck with a cow call or a bugle in that early season? 00:29:21 Speaker 3: You know, I'm not a I'm not a I like I love to bugle. Like if you've been around a lot of elk. Cows do not call like people do, like when they're doing calling sequences and whatnot, Like when cows are transitioning up a hill or something, they'll talk to each other and they're in a park. But ninety percent of the time, cows are quiet, quite a lot quieter than you think. And bulls are the ones that are bugling. Like people say, oh, you bugle too much. I'm like, you've never been around a lot of herd elk. Bulls scream all day long, you know, especially when the rut's on. That's why I'm like, I've been around elk where you just hear hundreds of bugles. I mean, yeah, it's a private branch where I'm hearing them. But wolves do not get scared of begles. I don't care who says that, like, yeah, they like. I mean, if you're on a four wheeler putting down the road and he there's outcoup here and you jump off and you're bugling. Yeah, they know what's up, they're gonna take off, but yeah, you're back in the back country. I'm not afraid of bugle. I love bugling actually, Like there's a lot of times where I've tried cal callon one in and they hang up and then I start chuckling and just ripping some bugles and here they come running in. You know. But I'm not a heavy, heavy cow caller. I like to do a little bit of it, but I like to make bulls sounds a lot more, you know. 00:30:34 Speaker 2: M That's that's kind of how I am. 00:30:36 Speaker 1: I will use cow calls like you say, but I'm pretty heavy on the bugles, especially early season. I feel like a lot of times in early season that they don't pay any attention to that cow calls. It's like they know, they know if there's a cow and heat around, they've been sniffing around enough and they're just like or maybe it's just like, yeah, there's no cows that are hint heat quite yet, but but that bugle, like maybe they're a little bit territorial or they're just like, hmm, I'm gonna come over here and see who that is. I think they're still on that pecking order thing, like, hey, I told you I was the boss around here. What are you running your mouth for. I think there's some of that, you know, pecking order stuff still going on. That's awesome. What what do you think? Does it matter how good your bugle sounds? If you sound really really good or kind of crappy but still kind of like an elk, Like what what matters most in that? 00:31:30 Speaker 3: So let me tell you a story. 00:31:31 Speaker 1: This is funny. 00:31:33 Speaker 3: There was a guy I used to guide with that he blew a little primo's bugle sounded like shit. But I used to make fun of him a little bit here and there. And one day we were we were guiding on the same area and I heard him bugling. I said, there he is. Well, when that primo's bugle again, go around the corner and there was a bull standing there. I said, oh shit, it wasn't him. It was a real bull. 00:31:56 Speaker 1: The sound that that. 00:31:57 Speaker 3: He made actually sounded exactly like a bull. So there's no perfect sounding elk like. I mean, yeah, the more practice you have, you're better off, you know. But as far as locating a bull and bugling, get after it bulls. There's people there's bulls that don't sound like bulls like we hear on TV. And like you know what I mean, there's always some weird sounding alk out there. So as long as you can get them to bugle, you know where they're at and they'll answer a bugle. And you don't have to be the best caller, you know. And what's cool about your calls. You have the snap on read now you don't even have to use a mouth read, you know. So there's options for people out there that can't call very good, you know. And then practice, practice is all it takes, you know, just like anything else, just put a little work into it. But yeah, like I say, don't be scared to get after and bugle. Like we've all been there and we're it's been a long road for us to get good at what we're doing, you know. And but as far as the way elk sound, yeah, there's some that sound sound badds. So that's our answer there. 00:32:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I think I think if it's an elk, if if your bugle sounds like an elk, it may not be some perfect like sound like some dude on TV or whatever, like exactly what you said. It's okay, Like I always like compare to my brother, Like my brother when we first started bohunt together. 00:33:16 Speaker 2: Then he sounded I hope he's listening. 00:33:19 Speaker 1: I'd probably my of the best on this all the time, and I've probably said it on this podcast before. 00:33:25 Speaker 2: Man, he sounded terrible. It was like the most god awful sound of bugle. 00:33:29 Speaker 1: But but he did it with such like such I don't know attitude that man. It would piss off balls and they would come in like like they wouldn't hang up, they would just come right in. I think they thought, like, I am going to go beat up that weirdo over there, that that guy needs to shut his mouth. I'm gonna go kill him. I don't know, but I think it's important to like you're you're out. Your bugle has to sound like an elk. It can't sound like you know, I don't know, there's some I've heard some stuff it's like that that doesn't sound anything like an elk. 00:34:00 Speaker 2: Stop making that noise. But if it sounds like an elk and you can. 00:34:03 Speaker 1: Put as much attitude with it or emotion into the calls, that's what's super important. You know, people talk a lot of shit about you know, the old terminator tube or whatever. But man, that thing worked good if you could work it, if you could like put some emotion into it. And you know, of course, I'm not trying to give Primos a shout out. I mean, you know, well we'll Primos. He's he's probably one of the most iconic ELK calling people in the world. But I'm not trying to give those guys a shout out at all, of course. But but the point is is, like, man, just whatever you're use in. You know, I'd love you to use my calls, but whatever you're use and make sure it's got emotion and you're you're acting like an ELK. You act like an ELK, you call like an ELK. Do what ELK do. Don't do what hunters do. You know, Yeah, like tack it out the window of your truck and bugle exactly. 00:34:58 Speaker 3: So get on YouTube like all these young guys getting after it. Listen to real alk biggling and cals talking, and don't worry about hearing the real championship competition. You listen to real ELK and you try to mimic them, you know, and learn from them. I mean, Yeah, there's great callers that are doing sequences on on on TV and all that, and you know, social media, but listening to real elk is the whole key, you know, learning how they sound and what they do. And there's a lot of YouTube videos of just people filming the herd alk out in the field, and you could try to mimic them, you know, and but there's a lot of ways to. 00:35:35 Speaker 1: Learn, you know. Yeah, yeah, there's a on Instagram. There's a channel called Good Bowl Outdoors. They're in Estes Park, Colorado. 00:35:45 Speaker 3: Yeah, and with that. 00:35:47 Speaker 1: Too, yeah, that they have so many cool videos and a lot it's crazy you obviously, these giant bulls stand outside eating people's flowers and their flower beds, but they do have a lot of like good videos to just elk vocalization running around and and and then the cow calls and hearing them and be like, you think I'm pretty good with a cow call, and you start hearing those real elk and you're like, yeah. 00:36:08 Speaker 2: It don't sounds a little different. 00:36:10 Speaker 1: That don't really sound exactly right. Yeah, same with the bulls, you know, and but but yeah, to your exactly to your point, listen to elk, try to mimic what the elk are doing. I like to tell people to sit, you know, watch a watch a YouTube video. Maybe send the missus to the spa. If she's not real keen on your elk, call and send her and to get a manny petty or something. And you hang out on the couch and watch these hunt and videos with the kids. 00:36:35 Speaker 2: And every time the bowl bugles. 00:36:37 Speaker 1: Mimic, you know, sit there and try to mimic exactly what that bull is just trying. You're just working on trying to sound like an elk. 00:36:44 Speaker 3: Same with the calcul right, yep, just. 00:36:47 Speaker 1: Just sit there and work on it and it will it will do wonders. Don't try to. I mean, it's okay to like listen to your favorite YouTubers to tell you how to you know, use it an alcohol, but but for real practice. Once you kind of okay, I know how to make a bugle now, now like listen to real elp and practice that. And that's that's super smart. 00:37:08 Speaker 3: Yeah. Another thing too, when you're calling and you're back there calling for your buddy or whatever, when a bull's coming in, he wants to hear noise. So that's what my I recommend people that are back there calling for their buddies. Put put your get a stick and beat some oak brush up and throw some rocks and bounce them off other rocks and snap a branch. Like they don't like if you just keep calling back there. They know something's up when they don't hear movement and noise, you know. Like, let me tell you a story. A couple of years ago I had we were above timberline and a buddy of mine and I were I'm sitting there and bull uh. I bugled and he answered me way up on top of the ridge and I could hear him bugle and coming down, and finally he made it to us. And when's good. I get back there calling that bull's coming in and I have him set up behind a tree, and the bull's coming down. He's behind the tree. He draws back and the bullet didn't come out. I was like, oh shit, And I could see him up there. I got one rock. I laid him on the ground and I threw a rock in like the strike pick bed and he heard that rock bounce. It's all it took. Here comes around the tree, shot him at five yards and he. 00:38:13 Speaker 1: Got a big bull. 00:38:14 Speaker 3: You know it was awesome, dude, but that rock is what killed him. Like he wanted to hear something, and he heard that rock. Thought some cowser back there in a bull, and here he comes, dead bull. 00:38:24 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I had a similar situation several years ago in Wyoming. We'd been bugling this bowl all morning and it was in a burn It was pretty open, and of course you know how it isn't a burner, and open countries meant, man, they can stand out there one hundred yards and like, I don't see any elk. So we bueled this thing and he kind of lost interest and kind of walked up back over the ridge. So we hustled up there and set up again, and I was going to try to kind of circle around and parallel and get him to kind of pull across in front of my buddies. And I was going over this big windfall. I had a ton of these dead limbs on it, and being that I'm such a klutz, I'm kind of clumsy, I trip and fall and crash into those broken lambs. Just make this the most It's not like I heard elephants making crashing through this stuff. I'm like, oh no, And man, when he heard that, that thing turned around and screamed and came running straight in and my buddy shot him at like thirty yards frontal. So awesome, but man, my shins were all bloody and like, well, I risk my life and limb here and a bowl. You're welcome. But yeah, that I think sometimes, especially like East Coast folks come out they used to hunt white tails, you know, white tail. The white tail game is completely different. Everything that elk hunting is is definitely everything that white tail hunting isn't, And they come out with the mindset like, man, I need to be super quiet and like stealthy and sneak and like Elmer Fudd type stuff. And it's one hundred percent not that it's like I'm the least annoy I'm the least that person. Ever when I'm elk haying, I'm I try to make extra noise. A lot of times I'm like, as I'm walking through, I'm trying to like stomp on dead branches and stuff just to try to make like thirty yards in front of Yeah, but run around, run around in circles and stuff, throwing. 00:40:16 Speaker 3: Rocks, alkhor noisy animals. If you're by a herd and you hear them. That's amazing the noise they make, you know. That's what I'm saying, like people, people need to make some racket back there when they're calling. And also another thing like what I've noticed too with these big bulls, they're always trying to circle you, you know, so you've got to always make sure you get good winds set up. Like I wonn't even work a big bull if I know that the wind's kind of shifty, you know, I'd rather wait and go set up on them again then go blow them out of there, you know. So I wait till I get a good thermal blowing hard, you know. But I always try to use the wind. That's the number one key which people. I mean, yeah, you could be the best beagler in the world, but with that wolve's coming in and he wins you, it's over, you know. 00:41:09 Speaker 1: M hm. Yeah. 00:41:10 Speaker 3: And it's amazing than those they have too, you know. 00:41:13 Speaker 2: Oh, I think people underestimate it. 00:41:15 Speaker 1: I just from anecdotal experiences I've had with other hunters in the woods and with other folks sharing their hunts telling me about them. Have another hunters come in and follow it up with the wind they'll come in and they will have zero regard for the wind or I wonder too, like if they think, oh, well, the elk is pretty far away, he can't smell from me from that distance. I think people really underestimate how far and elk can smell you, and how the scent travels and the wind pattern travels. Man, if exactly what you said, if I if I can't, I'm especially archery hunting. Man. If I'm the wind's a little bit wishy washy, I'm gonna wait. I'm just gonna sit down and wait. I'm gonna have to wait an hour for the winds to stabilized. But then once they do, I'm in right, I'm going to go right in. Yep. But but that's that's something that will definitely detract your side, rail, your your your your hunt for sure. Yep. 00:42:14 Speaker 3: When an eyesight too, like you said, they pinpoint you. I've some bulls in where I've even quit calling, and they can They could pinpoint you from two hundred yards away and come right to where you're calling. You know. It's like they have radar sensor, you know, And like you said, they want to see something when they come in. That's why like when I set up on bulls, I always want to like have a tree as my pivot point for a hundred or I like to set up like around a bend or over the back of a hill, so they have to come looking. Like if you set up like that where they have to come looking, that's when you get those close encounters, you know, those close shots, like you like a lot of guys will set up in open pines, put it and then there's a hunter in front of a tree calling and that bull's coming and they tried drawing on them. They're busted. You know, they're like like I'm seeing to hide. I'm just saying to use a tree as your little pivot point and it works fantastic. Like if that's with the caller, obviously, Like but if you're by yourself, obviously you're gonna have to make it happen sometimes. And you're a lot of times you're gonna get frintal shots when you're calling by yourself. So and I'm not afraid to take a s frintal shot if it's twenty yards and in, but uh, nine times out of ten, you know, when you're by yourself calling, it's they always stop at twenty staring at you with their chest sticking at you know, so I should practice that shot. It's actually an ethical shot. People say, oh no, don't take a bullet people in the chest. I'm like, have you ever shot one in the chest? They go down in like seconds? You know, as long as you you're confident and you know where to put that arrow there, they're they're a it's a great shot. 00:43:46 Speaker 1: I think in my opinion, you know, yeah, yeah, it's a deadly shot. I agree. I think the biggest thing though, I think people really have to be honest with themselves and know, like like you you know your abilities. You you're honest with yourself, you know your abilities. You know you can make the shot, this whatever shot. But some people will stretch, will just stretch it. Be like, man, this is the first time I've been in front of an elk after seven days of hunting, and I don't know if I can make this. I don't know. I'm I'm kind of losing my crap right now. And in those moments, I think it's really tough to make that shot. But but if you if you are, if you're one hundred percent confident in your shot and stuff, and especially if you're watching the elk demeanor like you and I, Right, we've seen enough elk walk in. You can see their demeanor on their on their face. They come in, they're relaxed. Chances of them like dodging the arrow and catching it in the shoulder or something weird. You know, yeah, we can kind of read that a little bit. 00:44:48 Speaker 3: But that's where they Yeah, well, you know, elk can drop like a white tail man. 00:44:53 Speaker 1: Oh it's crazy. 00:44:54 Speaker 3: We've had stuff on film where you're doing in slow mo and they'll drop a foot you know. Oh, like you obviously got to know the situation and if it's but that's what experience is going to do for you. You know, I'm not telling the like an out hunter that's never done it to do it. But if you're confident in it, then fine, go for it, send it, you know. 00:45:16 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think things that build confidence, you know, is here's one thing, like if you don't ever shoot around people and with people watching you, that can be really intimidating. Right, So if you're always just shooting your backyard by yourself, and you always wait till it's nice and quiet and you have a perfect you need to go to the local archery range or somewhere where there's people and there's talking and there's people like like especially like like like winter league and stuff where you have to line up on a line and there's a guy like eight inches ten inches away from you. You're like you're almost touching each other as you all line up and shoot your bows. 00:45:53 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:45:53 Speaker 1: Man, that's intimidating. That's that's hard to like focus. But putting yourself in those in those uncomfort couple situations, I think it makes all the difference in the world to make to be able to make those kind of shots. You bet. 00:46:06 Speaker 3: Man. That's like where I live out in this country. Once in a while, semill like do the jake break or whatever, right when I'm getting ready to punch them, Okay, just don't ignore them, and then then I just wait for him to pass hold it and then But yeah, it's good to have stuff like that happening. So yeah, because we were saying though, that's that's a lot of strategies that'll be a helpful tool. But now, if you're gonna be on public land where there's pressure here, the whole key to that is to be in the most fantastic shape of your life and be able to get into the deep back country because if you don't, you're not going to kill them five yards or five You might have to go ten miles in there, you know. But you've got to find bulls that haven't been pushed too hard, and those young boys that want to kill them, that's for them. Like I've done, I've done a few. I'm gonna go put some miles on this this U this month. But I mean, you get into that back country, into those basins where there's no pressure and alkak like alfback there, like where you're at, but Olcunt, you got to be in prime shape, you know. It's it's tough back there, you know. 00:47:11 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, you just have to know just getting to where you could actually shoot one that that's one thing. And then once you kill one there getting it out, yeah that you have to be in really good shape for that. And actually and mental tough Like I've seen some people who are really good shape before but have zero mental toughness to where they're just like they've like they're way better shape than me, but they just couldn't they couldn't hack it. You know, they'd had whatever, you know, between their ears, like and I always say people, people are always capable for like long before long after your mind gives up, your body will go for you. A lot of people's mind gives up about halfway to what they're actually capable of. 00:47:54 Speaker 3: Yep. And a good pair of walking sticks, man, hiking sticks, that's the key too. You get an elk on the ground and you have a heavy load. Those are key, man. I never used to use those when I was younger. Now I won't go in the back country without. 00:48:08 Speaker 1: You know, oh yeah. I used to make fund of people's like, oh, you're not hippie, some kind of hippy hunter. And I then I started using them, and it's like, dude, this is like four wheel drive. 00:48:18 Speaker 3: Yeah, you extra legs on you. 00:48:20 Speaker 1: You know, you can really get after it, especially a crossing windfalls and stuff. You got you got a big load of meat on your back going over wind falls. It's nice to have that extra stability. Like man, it it can be pretty touch and go, and especially some of those windfalls. You don't want to fall on the windfall and ran one of them them stobs into your hind end. I mean that that's going to take you out. You're not You're gonna be done packing meat yep. 00:48:43 Speaker 3: And like you said, it's it's an all day trip sometimes packing them out. You know, it's a lot of work. 00:48:51 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:48:52 Speaker 1: So back on setups, how far between you and your hunter are you? What kind of space are you put there? Are you guys, thirty yards, fifty yards, one hundred yards. 00:49:03 Speaker 3: It's usually just depends on where we're set up at the moment, but typically I like to be about sixty to seventy back calling, And like I was telling you, I like to be I like to set up where that bull can't see where I'm calling. Like I said, I like to always find like a big pile of brush or some thick trees, and that's where I'm calling, So he has to pass that hunter up to and get to me to see what's back there, you know. And I like to, like I was saying, set up in a spot where, yeah, I can scrape some brush with a stick or log or something through rocks and he can't see me. So that's the whole key, Bulls, I always want to see what's calling back there. So if you can learn how to set up where you're you have a lot of cover. The caller has a lot of cover and you can make some noise back there. That's always key, you know, yeah. 00:49:49 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I always say that you have to set up to where the bull has to come close to ever be able to see lay eyes on you exactly right, whether you're solo or whether you have a shooter out in front. And then you want your shooter to like, you know, be quiet and don't make any calls. Let the bulls come by unaware. 00:50:09 Speaker 3: Yeah you're out and see if you're in some ponderosas in it's wide open country, he's gonna look. He's gonna come in from two hundred yards away and just stare at you and you don't see nothing. He's just gonna stop there. You've we've all seen what it they'll do. They'll stop there, stand there for ten minutes, and then they turn around. They're gone, you. 00:50:25 Speaker 2: Know, yep, yeah, I see it on YouTube. 00:50:28 Speaker 1: A lot. People will will get pinned down out in the open and they'll be like hunkered down and the bull is and there's they can see for a long way, and the bull will be like locked in right on where their calls are coming from. 00:50:42 Speaker 2: But they'll continue. 00:50:43 Speaker 1: They'll sit there with the bulls staring at their location and with them hidden behind it on the ground or behind a bush or whatever, and they'll be just like and they'll keep continue to call and bugle and stuff. Man, don't do that. That freaks Elk out. They're like, yeah, there's no Elk here this, I'm out of here. People wonder why they get call shy. It's like, man, you have to do ELK do that. No, ELK, don't do that. They don't hide from each other and call. Now, they might put some barriers between each other, like some thick timber or brush or whatever. Yeah, that's what that's what you want to do. You don't want to get pinned down out and they open. If I get pinned down out, they open and like oh trap here comes ELK. 00:51:19 Speaker 2: I shut up. I just cut all the calls. 00:51:21 Speaker 3: You don't. You don't want them to know where you're at. You know that's the whole key. But like you said, man, they're amazing animals. Like people are like, oh that bull came running in. That don't happen all the time. Like no, I mean, you get the right situation where or you're in like a little rut. Yeah, you'll get some different bulls coming charging in, But a lot of times they're coming in cautious looking, and like you said, don't set up in the wide open man, where they're going to see. 00:51:47 Speaker 4: You know. 00:51:49 Speaker 1: Yeah, how uh do you tell your your your hunters? You tell them like how far proficiency do you want them to be with their bow when they come hunt with you? You tell him you're practice, hey, guys, and you guys need to be practicing now to X. 00:52:03 Speaker 3: Distance well forty yards. I don't like to let him send it past forty you know. But that's why we want to call him right to us, you know, get him and get those twenty yard shots. So yeah, like I was telling you that, that's set up. I use with a tree where they're behind a tree, and I have lanes on bull sides. Those bulls walk right past that tree. And what's cool about that, like I'm telling you, is they could see the bull coming. They have the tree as a like a shield. I call it the shield. So when the bull's coming around, they can draw without getting busted. And all they got to do is just pivot with the bull once he steps out done. You know. But like I said, you've got to build a swivel either way because you never know what way he's going to come. So sure that's up to the hunter to beuible to know how to adjust in situations too, you know. Yeah, And then I'm back there calling. Like I said, I'm not sticking in the wide open. I'm always trying to find a spot where that bull's going to pass up that hunter and say, okay, he's around that little hump right there, I'm coming through here. You know. So setups are key, Like if you don't have a good setup, don't work that bowl. Wait a little while, we'll drift off and then go set up again. You know, people will try to force a setup and nine times out of ten it' it'll work, And like you said, you're just gonna get busted and educated, educate him and it's over. 00:53:19 Speaker 1: You know, yes, I agree with that one hundred percent. I think that that right there, that's that's gold right there. Sometimes you get so wrapped up like we have to call in this bowl right here, right now, But it's not ideal. 00:53:31 Speaker 2: It's a terrible it's a terrible spot. You see, you see guys. 00:53:35 Speaker 1: Trying to call stuff in, or you hear guys tell you about like they might be like in the Missouri River breaks at Montana, they're like, oh, you can't call in elk there. Well, yeah, if it's out in the middle of a big white, open flat and there's nothing in between you, yeah, you're not gonna call that elk in. 00:53:49 Speaker 2: But wait till he. 00:53:50 Speaker 1: Moves into the into the bottoms or moves into that broken stuff to where you can get close just on the other side of a ridge or behind an opinion or or whatever. Now it makes sense to get close and then call to where now they're going to have to come close to ever see you. Yeah, yeah, that's I think that's a huge takeaway is just because you have to have a bull bugling doesn't mean you need to call him in right now. Let him fade off, move into some into an area that's better for the setup, then start, then call him in. Yeah, that's that's awesome. 00:54:26 Speaker 2: Well, tell me. 00:54:30 Speaker 1: If you could give one the biggest piece of advice to a new hunter it's going to do DIY or a guided hunt. What's the single best piece of advice you could could give them. 00:54:41 Speaker 3: Well, always having a buddy calling for you one of the best tools you could have. Obviously, when you're calling by yourself, you're gonna get pinpointed nine times then ten. So if you're going to be by yourself calling, be prepared for those frontal shots. And I'm not saying to take them, like if they're forty or fifty, but if they're right up to your toes at fifteen yards or send it, you know, but be at full draw and be ready before they get there, because you're not. Nine times out of ten, that bull is not going to come broadside by you when you're by yourself calling, So be prepared for that situation because we all know they always come in frontals when you're by yourself. So that's one thing for you when you're by yourself, when you're with your buddy, Like I was saying, use that tree as your little shield. I call it the shield where you can get your pivot point, you know. And like when that bull's coming up, draw back. Don't be afraid to draw back, even if you don't he's not the bull you want to kill, but draw your bow, pivot with him, and if he's not what you want, let down, you know. Like, but if a lot of a lot of guys are scared to draw their bow, and that's what puts you under. They wait till they wait till the wrong time to draw, and they get busted. So you want to always draw and pivot with the with the bull, and when he's in shooting distance, that's when you seal the deal, you know. Mm hmm yeah, yeah, be prepared to Like I said, if you're by yourself, you've got to be able to take those frontal shots because it's going to happen. And when you're with your buddy though, like I said, use that shield and that's gonna be game changer. And always, always, always set up is nine. Is the key to killing a good bull is having proper setups and not letting that bull know where you're at, you know, like you always want to make him come looking, dude, don't want to let him look down a lane and say, oh, there's nothing there, bye bye. So I always remember that, like we were saying, just get around and wait till it's the right time to set up, and you're gonna have a lot of good luck, you know. 00:56:32 Speaker 1: Man, I love all that advice. That's awesome. Well thanks for coming on, man. Where can people find you on socials and stuff? 00:56:40 Speaker 3: Well, we're we have my wife and I have a page called S and G Outdoors could fall us on all our hunting adventures. And we teamed up with some good friends, Ralph and Vicky on the Choice TV show, So okay, we're going to be doing a lot of hunts with them on TV, so you can find us there. So this ball, we have some a lot of action packed hunts coming up, so keep keep us up on the loop there and if you have any questions, just let us know. We'll answer you and help you all we can. 00:57:07 Speaker 1: You know, that's awesome. I can't wait to see your success, you and your your your wife and your clients. I just I can't wait to fall along and see us see the pictures and the little video clips and stuff you share. 00:57:20 Speaker 2: So I appreciate it. 00:57:22 Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah, man, thanks for coming on, and uh, we'll have to get you on again someday for everybody else, we'll catch you on the next one. 00:57:30 Speaker 4: Thanks. 00:57:37 Speaker 1: H