00:00:11 Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Cutting into This and today I'm sitting down with Kyle and Stephen Bradshaw, the inventors of what I honestly believe is one of the most innovative ELK calling tools in recent years. 00:00:20 Speaker 2: In the KIVN Beagle Tube. 00:00:22 Speaker 1: If you haven't seen it yet, this is the first, in my opinion, truly collapsible but still full sized Beegle tube compresses down to about the size of an al gene bottle, making it a dream for all of us that are minimalist ELK hunters or guys just running and gunning in the in the rough country. And as a call designer myself, I'm always looking for great ideas, and sometimes that means recognizing when somebody else has maybe one nailed down or one a little better than I've come up with. And I'm also a user of all this gear, right so I look at it and try to figure out how it worked with what we've got going on, and I knew right away it was special. And it takes a little humility to admit that, you know, as a call designer, you know Dirk brought this idea to me on the heels of the twenty twenty four Western Hunt and so today we're going to talk about where this idea came from, the struggles with it, how to get it mass produced, how we came in contact with these guys, and uh, you know this tube launch three days ago, and kind of what it took to get it from where they took it and to where we got it. 00:01:24 Speaker 2: So welcome to the show, Kyle and Stephen. 00:01:27 Speaker 3: Thanks Jason for having Yeah. 00:01:29 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's awesome. 00:01:31 Speaker 3: Go ahead, no, go ahead, Yeah, no, We're we're very excited. And I like that at the end there, how you mentioned, you know, where it first started to where we've taken it today and attributing to all of your success, Like, it is so great to have the Phelps brand back us on this product. And apart from you know, everything else that we've been working on, this was like our staple product that we wanted Hunters to use and we knew that working with you this thing was going to make it all the way way. So we're really excited about that. 00:02:02 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:02:02 Speaker 1: Yeah, and uh, to be completely transparent, you know, there were there were a few people starting to use it and I had caught win you know, anything that's new in the honting industry. You start to get pictures and what and I'm like, I'm gonna root against these guys. I'm gonna root against some hard right, Like I don't want It's a good idea, but I hope it doesn't get any legs. And you know, and a little back history, you know, you see things are three D printed. 00:02:22 Speaker 2: You're like, well, that's not sustainable or not profitable. 00:02:24 Speaker 4: You know. 00:02:25 Speaker 1: You're like, you're like, you're trying to come up with all these ideas on why this thing's not going to take off. And at the same time, I'm scared to death that somebody maybe have a better idea, you know, has a better idea than I do. 00:02:34 Speaker 3: That's funny. And you know when people say that, they'll say, it's just three D printed. And I've always hated that term because, as you know, a new designer, when you're prototyping, that's it's just the most feasonable way to go. And we didn't have the means to you know, injection mold or manufacture it any other way. So we were just three D printing. And that was something that when we started talking with you, We're like, Okay, this guy knows how to create product. 00:03:00 Speaker 4: Yeah, three D printing is not easy. 00:03:02 Speaker 5: It's a you could dive into it, and it is a lot to it. 00:03:06 Speaker 1: So whatever, yeah, yeah, no, And that's not a dig like we do tons of three D printing. I've just always felt and we've learned through this, like you know, we don't we're not going to talk numbers here anything, but you see like where the margins start to come from, and how you can like peel this thing back to a point where it can be a high production profitable because I would be lying to say that ninety nine percent of what I produce here doesn't come into three D print in some form or fashion. You know, anything we've did in silicone. You know, they can print three D silicon, and they can three D print titanium. They can three D print all of these things now. And so that wasn't a dig at you guys. It was the idea that if it's going to always be production three D printed, it's going to be rough because I you know, having three D printers in the past and and ordering stuff from them just you know, time on the machines and unless you're a mass mass produced So now that that was just more of a joke and this as Dirt came home from that Western hunt and said, hey, these guys are pretty good guys. 00:04:00 Speaker 2: It's got good back pressure, it's got good. 00:04:02 Speaker 1: Sound, and I'm like, all right now, now this, you know, the relationship kind of changes one ady from rooting against You're like, hey, let's see if we can get this thing to work together. 00:04:10 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's fun. And you know, kind of a backstory on that. We'd worked on it for two years before we'd let anyone see it, and that was just between Steve and I. I was going to Utah State at the time and they allowed for students to use their three D printers and wed I was printing something for my brother that he was working on, and Steven wanted to get into three D modeling and I'll let him get in on that. But we started kind of sampling, just smaller pieces there, and then we got the courage to buy our own, which was an Ender was it an. 00:04:43 Speaker 4: Ender V two three pro? 00:04:45 Speaker 3: Yeah, And Steven kind of tell him how you got into modeling, Well, you. 00:04:49 Speaker 5: Came to me and said, hey, I'm gonna we're gonna buy this printer. It's going to be at your house and you're gonna become the editor, And I said, uh, okay, so I did. We put it together other one night and we started tinkering with it. I think I remember the first time we ran at it. I think the gears grinded and it made a weird noise. I think I stayed up all night because I was worried I was going to catch the house on fire. 00:05:09 Speaker 4: I didn't know what to expect. So but yeah, it was just. 00:05:13 Speaker 5: A lot of a lot of tinkering and a lot of learning as you go, a lot of YouTube and for the modeling side, I was fortunately I work as a like a manufacturing engineer for a while, and uh I was learning how to three D model as like a work goal, and so we were able to kind of talk and I was able to kind of implement some designs and kind of learn as I go with this. I always kind of laugh because a lot of the design was made. You know, I'd be sitting at work and I'm I'm learning and I'm I'm modeling. 00:05:45 Speaker 4: But my boss would walk by and look at my computer. 00:05:47 Speaker 5: And good job, you know, good for taking on a skill and a work goal, and just I said, yeah, absolutely, I'm I'm taking this all the way. 00:05:55 Speaker 2: You know. 00:05:55 Speaker 4: Meanwhile, I'm making a bugle tube. 00:05:57 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a lot of similar beginnings there were. You know, I just designed roads, you know, interstates and bridges and stuff, which wasn't near I find what you guys do a lot more complex where it's more mechanical. 00:06:11 Speaker 2: But it frustrates me that. 00:06:12 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I learned a lot of my drafting to get some of my more simple parts done just the same way through my cad at worked, but it gave me just enough skills to be able to design some of this stuff. But yeah, so let's jump into the origin. Like, we're all hunters, we all want new gear, we all buy the fanciest new gear. 00:06:32 Speaker 2: But where did this idea come from? 00:06:35 Speaker 1: Originally like the very the very first mustard seed that grew this thing into what it is now. 00:06:42 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:06:42 Speaker 3: So I grew up in Salt Lake and we'd only ever hunted meal deer, grown up. Our opportunities in Utah for over the counter elk just aren't super great, but we'd had We have some elk. We have an Elkurd on our wall, sets front range, and I'd set up some trail cameras and there were legal at the time during the season, and I was looking for meal there and I kept getting the six point bowl on there and I turned on video mode and he'd still be in that same meadow. And I come to work and I'm showing the guys because they were all from a smaller town campus just right here, and they were all big ELK guys. They're like, I don't know why you're here at work in September when you have a bowl in an area that's stuck there on some cows, Like what are you doing? And so I'm like, ah, you know, and I've watched some YouTube videos, but I just didn't know anything about ELK. And so I went to cal Ranch and forty dollars ELK tag and I bought a Ucci Mama, so I it's a little bit of a shout out doing a Huci Mama. Of sense. Then grown from the UCI Mama and realized that having being able to use a diaphram or some of these other tools are way more effective when you're ready for the shot and you're in the zone, you know. But I'd gone up there and I'm standing that meadow and I and I'm like, this is like a dog toy. This is not making any sense. And I heard a bugle and I'm like, that's no way. So I'm standing in the middle of this meadow and the sixth point bull comes running out, all muddy, breathing heavy, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is this is insane. You know, this is awesome. And so then I went and bought some diaphragms and started and started to learn. And so, I mean, this isn't very long ago. This was twenty seventeen nineteen, and uh, you know. From there, I went and bought a bugle tube lost it and always wanted that extra volume, and so I bought yours, which is funny because Dirk doesn't know this. I talked to Dirk at one of the hunting expos I mean it was maybe twenty nineteen or something, and he had his bugler with the gray cover on it and you had the first light cover and he's sitting there and yeah, this, this and that, and he sold me from some diaphragms and I looked over. I'm like, oh, what about that one. He goes, oh, yeah, that one's good too. I'm like, well, I like the camera on that one. And he goes, so he sells me that one, and I heard him when I walked away. He goes, there's another one just to the camo. Okamurmer that and but you know, and I love the the volume that comes out of that. But unfortunately, if you know anything about the wasass that's front, it is so heavily populated with just recreators. I mean it's an archery only, and they did that just because of the high prevalence of people. And so I'd get up there and I'd first, like you know, I'd hike six miles and I'd rip a bugle and I'd sit there and listen. Then I'd hear, hey, Dave, do you hear that this? Don't look at ilk We're just hear that. And I'm like, my health cutting's over for the day. But I still got a deer tag, so maybe I can hunt deer. And I got my spotting scope. So I just wanted the space. I just wanted the room in my pack. And you know, this was about the same time that Steve and I were tinkering with three D printing and we were printing some other things and I was like, Stephen, I wonder if I could make a bugle tube that would just you know, make it smaller. And so his first prototype, which I'd like to share one day with everyone, is maybe it was what ten pieces, and yeah, it was that had a mouthpiece on it and then the rest just look like one of those yeah, like star war swords that you fling out. 00:10:02 Speaker 1: Like those little cups of the kids have that backed down flat is they got like five sections that make them into a cup and exactly, Yeah, that's. 00:10:10 Speaker 3: All it was, and that's what it was. And then I mean we really went from there. It was it was fun and through the process. I mean we could talk a long time about each in each individual Stephen, how many did you say we had? Rev? 00:10:26 Speaker 4: Thirty two? 00:10:27 Speaker 5: I think plus that's big changes, you know, minor teams. You don't mark those, and that's something I learned along the way. But a lot of the tubes, you know, we would would we'd make it and then we we could do this, and most design manufacturing you would make several changes and review it and then print. But the way Kyle and I would work would make one subtle change and let's print that sucker. So I have a basement full of plastic bugle tubes that my kids will grab and hit each other with all the time. 00:10:54 Speaker 3: So it's great, nice, nice funny. 00:10:58 Speaker 1: So, uh, that first part of type A bunch of extendable circle sections of tube. When did you guys what led to like what we're calling our coil lock technology. You know that the patent is actually filed around Like when did that come into play? Like when did you guys decide that was like a more positive system? When did it come you know, when did it get decided to make it? The three pieces? Like, tell us about that process on. Yeah, we don't need to go through every revision, but just kind of how we got there and like where where the final idea came from. 00:11:30 Speaker 3: Yeah, So this was I think it was twenty twenty two. I'd gone out cunting by myself and I'd had one of his. We called it friction fit because you would pull the ends as tight as you could and it would cause enough friction to stay put and when you would go to collapse it, you'd have to push so hard that the mouthpiece would end up shooting out. And so what the first end cap, which really ended up being one of the biggest, you. 00:11:55 Speaker 4: Know, challenging pieces, is out there, right. 00:11:57 Speaker 3: And you've seen, yeah, the magic. And so the first end cap was actually looked like a crosshair to keep the other pieces from falling out. And so that's what I went hunting with was that, and I killed an elk with it, and there's a little video of me showing it. But I kind of knew that it just wasn't like there's just well first off the root. You can hear it, and I remember. 00:12:22 Speaker 5: Walking you know it's yeah, it's that material in the sunlight will warp. So we just knew right away that three D printing is great for prototyping, but it can never be like, at least for PLA, you can't use it outside. 00:12:35 Speaker 3: Sorry, oh you're fine. And I remember walking in on like an elk and I was worried about it collapsing, and I'm like, this is not with my gear, right, you just you need to know that it's gonna you can trust it out in the field, especially when it counts. And so I'm like, Stephen, this thing has to lock. And then when it's closed, I don't need it rattling. It has to lock there and so and then from then we started playing with other prototypes and we tried some other snap fit models, but again you'd have that you'd need that defining snap to where each piece would go snap snap, and then it would the force to set it down. I don't care what material you have, it's just too loud for the type application that I'd like. So so then we started playing with this this coil lock and Steve and you can yeah, well, you know. 00:13:26 Speaker 4: I experimented with threads and with the diameter. 00:13:29 Speaker 5: The modeling program I was using at the time wouldn't let me put threads on it. Plus something little details we got into was we called it, you know, the illusion, But basically in the inside you'd have a straight and then an angle, and so it kind of looked like it was angled, but it wasn't. We were really excited about it, but it was hard to get threads at an angle. But anyways, we ended up with this coil feature that we were just kind of using as a thread and it was very subtle, very thin, but it worked really well. And as soon as we did it, you know, there was a bunch of prototypes where the coil wasn't tight enough, it was too loose, and I had to learn about offsetting it and add to fill its and all kinds of grease and just all these different things to try to get a coil fitment to work. And then once you had that working and then you were on threading in, it would bind all all kinds of fun stuff. So but yeah, it was just a coil feature that we kind of found and then we found out how to make that coil feature lock and tension fit tightened. And yeah, it's been quite a quite a lot of prototypes, so we figured it out. 00:14:27 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:14:27 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you know those original materials you mentioned PLA which, for those that don't know, it's a type of plastic resin that was specifically designed for three D printing, if my memory serves me correct, And and we'll talk about the recognition of the idea and then how we ultimately changed materials. But yeah, I can remember the first prototype once Dirk said we should look into this. You guys were open to the idea. You mentioned grease. You know, I opened the first one up and my hands are all grease. You now, yeah, like like something happened, and then you're like, you know, the first one, we knew it. But you know, sometimes you could overtighten them because pla. Once again, no matter how high quality of a three D printer, you've got their ridges and it creates like additional friction that you you know, didn't necessarily want. 00:15:09 Speaker 2: But regardless of all of that, I was stoked about the performance. 00:15:14 Speaker 1: Like great back pressure is a guy that you know roots myself and being a high high quality caller, a guy that's very very picky on the back pressure. I get very very picky about the volume I get. I said, regardless of the grease on my hands right now, and regardless of you know, any of these other things, regardless that you know that it's only three D printed right now, like this thing has got some legs. I'm we can work with this. And then so that kind of leads us to the recognition of the great idea. Right It's like, ah, we can do this now. It's like, are these guys that I didn't know at the time, Kyle and Steven willing to talk to us? Are they interested in this? Are they are they going to bring this thing out? You know, you guys had already filed for your pat and your provisional at that time, Like how do we deal with that? Like we're not going to get into the nuts and bolts of all of that, but I will say I'm gonna say I wanted to do a royalty, which would have saved me lots of years of my life for months and hours, and we ended up, you know, doing this contract thing and nobody needs no other details, but basically, you know, coming out the other side, we're building a legal to with Kiven's name on it. We'll just put it that way. So the recognition of the great idea, Dirk was fully on board. I was fully on board. You guys were open to entertaining the idea as long as it made quote unquote business sense for you guys. Now let's move because with my experience and my understanding of schedules, tooling everything, we're gonna have to get into place like we're already kind of behind right in order to release it this year. So that was where like my concern lied at that point. And then this this process drug out and drug out, and we were unwilling to start spending you know, lots of money on tooling until this was like a for sure thing. We don't need to get into that as much because it's gonna boor everybody. But I'm not a legal expert. I don't like dealing with that side. I just want to design cool stuff and use cool stuff and make it the best we can. But in this process there I do want to touch on. There's a little bit of that humility, and anybody that knows me knows and I hate being a proud guy, but I would be lying to say, like, I'm not pretty prideful at times in in my my know how when I'm able to do my skill, and there was a lot of humility in order for me to be like, yeah, you guys got a great idea, like, let's make this happen. And so that uncomfortable situation that I'm not good in is where a lot of growth happens, right, And so just kind of adding to the podcast a little bit of sentimental stuff here, like when you're uncomfortable, when you don't necessarily like it, but you're willing to get over that is where you know, some cool stuff happens. 00:17:56 Speaker 3: And Jason, I have to I don't. You don't know that, but I was I'd gotten some advice from, you know, some other people in the industry, and when we'd first talked to Dirk, he was like, guys, I like it sounds like Jason's on board. I was wondering if I could take one of your calls right now. This is at the expo, and he goes, you know, I think we could jump on this quick, in a hurry, and I'm like, okay, And so I went and talked to my advice and they're like, you know, usually when someone's in a hurry, it's you know, and see, we were kind of like a little standoffish because I would say, anybody and maybe you were this way at the start. When you have like a new product or you're trying to, you know, get a patent application, you feel like you're being chased, and especially when you're very small, it almost seems like somebody can just squish you quick. But then we're like, we're talking to one of the big dogs, and so let's have that conversation. And as soon as we start talking with you, we realized Steve and I would joke, he's just like us. He you know, he he's a hunter, he makes movie quotes, he's funny, and then you know he's a family man. You're constantly you know, you would all right, guys, we're gonna do this, this and that and Okay, I gotta go to basketball practice or stuff like that. One of the very first conversations you said was I my goal as a businessman and in life is to not screw anyone over. And just you saying that made us so much more comfortable through the whole process, and since then it was I mean, I didn't have any sort of stress through it. 00:19:32 Speaker 2: I hope you know not that this is where the podcast needs to go. 00:19:35 Speaker 1: But like in the process, I'm not the old man by any means, but like been through this for fifteen years now, Like I just wanted to make sure that you guys were comfortable and knew like the pros and cons and hopefully through that process, like, hey, guys, we can do this. This is what we're proposing, but you should maybe think about this right And and so I really wanted, I truly want the best for you guys. 00:19:55 Speaker 2: You guys had a great idea. 00:19:56 Speaker 1: There's no sense in you know, me coming in and make and all the money, you know, doing I wanted it. You know, we've got our calculators to make sure margins are where they are. Like, I wanted to take care of everybody, and I feel like having the inventors of this stay on board still want to be involved. Is more important to me than me just being because then the story turns in like oh, the big guy with the money Boden idea and ran with it right where it's like no, you guys literally and we're going to get into this, Like you guys helped me. You guys were my design team the whole way through this process. Like I'm helping, I'm providing ideas, but you guys are the ones as well, you know, sitting down in these you know meetings, figuring out how to fix the issues, everything that's going on, you know, as we go to mass production. So to me, that teamwork is way more important than me grabbing it running with it. And it's it's not how I wanted to tell the story. 00:20:47 Speaker 2: And this whole deal. 00:20:48 Speaker 1: I didn't want it to be like we bought an idea, you guys got cut out and here here phelps is like crushing the KIV and tube, you know, wanting not I didn't do it for publicity, even though I'm telling it on the podcast. It was very important to like keep your guys' name on it, right, It doesn't make sense to like wipe out Kivan and it's Phelps' transformer tube or Phelps's coil lock, like it didn't feel right, and so really wanted to make sure we did this thing right just as much as like bring a cool product to market. 00:21:18 Speaker 2: So yeah, that was that was important. 00:21:21 Speaker 5: Really, we were super excited when we saw that, and we're like, also we were kind of mad because we're like, oh, that logo is way cooler. 00:21:27 Speaker 2: Than what we. 00:21:30 Speaker 3: Well, that's that's so funny. And Jason, it's cool to see your team and I've been able to work with some of your team at the expo and uh see you know, and I don't know if you knew this. I was actually in a small meeting with was Sondie and she's great, and it's just it takes a village right to build what you've built. And when it was just Steven and I, you know, we I built my first logo just playing on a Photoshop and Stephen was is this product started from a line? You know, and any any feature or anything he had a YouTube and so I kind of wanted to touch on right before when we'd had a pretty solid prototype that I wanted to maybe show some friends or take hunting and not be hiding it all the time because I kind of knew we had something. We were talking with my grandpa and and with your family, you're always trying to get like, hey, is this a good idea? You think I'm going to be successful? And they're always like, oh, yeah, you're so great. Everything you do is great. And so you're almost like, am I like a kid on a trampoline who like does a front flip? And they're like you're the best, you know, And so like, is this really a good idea? But I can't ask anyone? And so we asked my grandpa and he goes, he's looking at it. He goes, well, what I know of elk hunters is I know guys will buy wafers that's covered and pissed. So if they're willing to buy that, I'm sure they're willing to buy this. And that got me like right, you know, And so I went to go file that provisional or that non provisional patent, which is the first step in the patent process. And I'd looked and we were trying to cut money anywhere we can, and so I looked at what it would take to have a patent attorney drapped up and it was like twelve hundred. But then through you, you know, YouTube, university and other forms, I learned that that's a that's one of the things that you can do on your own that like legally, and so I filed it and I would just advise anyone to save yourself a year two three of just stress have a patent attorney doing it, because the whole time, I'm like, this is what's going to screw this up. Yeah, I filed that wrong. I didn't put in the right information. Jason. I don't think you realized how stressed I was. And then talking with you guys, and then you know, it was it was just funny because I'm like, this whole deal is going to go down and crumble because I was being cheap. 00:23:41 Speaker 1: Now our patent our council actually gave you kudos for they didn't believe that just two guys that didn't have any counsel. 00:23:49 Speaker 2: That was your guys applications. So you got good job. 00:23:52 Speaker 3: I'll hear that you didn't want that felt better than getting my like college diploma. When she said that, I was like shit, I was like, I don't know. I kind of up in the meeting was like, hey, so will you just tell me what you thought that. She goes, oh it was great. 00:24:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can work with this. 00:24:06 Speaker 3: I can work with this. 00:24:08 Speaker 2: That was funny. So fast forward. 00:24:11 Speaker 1: We get all the business done, we're moving forward, right, we've signed on all the dotted lines, we're able to invest in tooling. Now is when like I can finally start to help in this process besides just being a reviewer of the product. When you've taken something that's three D printed, and for those that don't know, three D printing is awesome because anything you dream up can be made. Well, guess what in the real world when you want to mass produce these with automated parts, it doesn't work that way. Right, there's coils. Now you've got coils. Well, how the heck do you twist these things and get these coils into a piece. 00:24:44 Speaker 2: Of hard plastic? How do you. 00:24:47 Speaker 1: Blow molding, which we've used on a lot of our other tubes, isn't accurate enough to line up coils and make sure that you know blow molding. You get good external dimensions, but you are really limited to your shot and how the shot spun on the inside or like where the materials at so you know, the idea of coils and all this stuff wasn't gonna work. So this ended up being I've did lots of plastic injection before on our smaller parts, but this is my first like plastic injection beegle tube, Like, how are. 00:25:15 Speaker 2: We going to do this? 00:25:15 Speaker 3: What? 00:25:16 Speaker 2: What materials are available? 00:25:18 Speaker 1: And so we go through a process called DFM, which is design and manuft Design for Manufacturability process, which you know, you get these big reports on every part you make. So on this tube we basically get what I call the mouthpiece, the mid body, the main body, and then the end cap correct and so we get a report on each one of those parts. They're letting us know concerns on sync, where parts are too thick, they're letting us know where there's not enough draft. And so for a lot for ninety nine percent people out there, draft doesn't mean anything. But you can't slide a bar out if something gets cast over like an underhook, right, So you imagine, you know, a part that gets wrapped around, you can't pull the bar back out, or you can't slide a poll bar back out, And so we have to make sure we've got at least a half a degree or you know, sometimes more sometimes less logos become a pain, right because you can't slide something past the positive logo, so you're always looking at pulling the part like skinny to big, you know. But then that doesn't always work because if you've got recess or you know, like this tube's got two corrugations in it, so now you're looking at all, right, if we split the tool in half and then start sliding stuff right, and so it becomes a very very complex tool. And I we fought sync a lot, which is ultimately when you guys, you know, if you checked out this kuive intube, by now we've got little hexagon you know, hexagonal pieces at varying depths, right, And that was our solution to aesthetics. But then also it was really to remove material, not removing material for any other reason that it costs anymore that it needed to look this way. It was that if the plastic was that thick there, we were going to get bad sinc which we'll touch on here in a little bit. Like one of our major issues. When we tested the first one, we had thin so it's not thin metal on the part itself, but it's thin metal on the tooling. Right, So if you can imagine, in order to make this exact replica this part, your part may make the tooling be very very thin or like razor edged, and it's not gonna last. It's not gonna be durable. So we were moving coil spacings back. We were doing what else, guys did we run into We ran into sinc We were run in the you know, moving the coils back. 00:27:39 Speaker 2: We tried to make the pieces we mane to make. Yeah, positive stops. 00:27:45 Speaker 1: We kind of added those positive stops, and so the pieces don't really ever we I call them a positive stop, but it really prevents us from like, cause the coil can just keep going, but this will prevent it from like it gives it kind of a bottom out, right, so it doesn't want to keep, you know, pushing it off out of itself. 00:28:02 Speaker 5: Yeah, and a lot of a lot of the changes that we would make. And I'm gonna kind of speak like Kyle and I throughout the whole process, not only here. There's a lot of times when people will have a great idea, but it's getting that idea to the guy who knows how to work at the computer. Kyle and I would sit there and kind of argue about making a change like the hexagonal shake to get rid of the sync. 00:28:22 Speaker 2: Right. 00:28:23 Speaker 4: He was telling me. 00:28:24 Speaker 5: I remember, I wanted to look like like a was it a diamond that you'd press in? And I remember looking at what are you talking at? 00:28:31 Speaker 3: What? 00:28:32 Speaker 4: And we would just try and model. 00:28:34 Speaker 3: Like and diamond would need different and I'm trying to tell him you would press it in further, and I clicked. 00:28:41 Speaker 5: I was like, oh, might know exactly what we're talking about. And well, I ended up kind of making this part that was almost like a mold piece that I combined in the feature and it cut and it worked perfectly, and we offset it and I gave it angles. And as soon as I understood what draft was, because first of all, what is draft? I remember you brought that up, I thought, what is this crap? This draft thing? Yeah, as soon as we figured that out, it was it was great. You know, that was that was a big learning curve for me. So I really really enjoyed that process. 00:29:07 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I and you know that's something that I feel like we would make changes over and over again, and then we would stop and be like, we're making changes for this material. So if we were sitting there and making changes for PLA over and over again, we're like, well, what we're about to make is not PLA, And so you almost waste your time a little bit because there's different cooling rates and there's different ways that material interacts after it's it's built, and so that was something that's extremely hard. Even I feel like I thought it would be more streamlined, but you even when they send those products over, you don't know exactly how it's going to interact. 00:29:43 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're doing our best on our side, right because we've got a lot of money at stake. 00:29:47 Speaker 2: We're putting a lot of money into this tooling. I keep my finances or my. 00:29:52 Speaker 1: Company finance and myself, but this is by far the most expensive tooling we've ever built. 00:29:57 Speaker 2: Time sixt we're still paying on it, but very expensive. 00:30:02 Speaker 1: But at some point, like you're saying, you know, you have to, we had a very good liaison, my design team that works between ourselves and the manufacturer, also an engineer, also a materials engineer. Like we're all putting our heads together, like is this gonna work? Is it gonna shrink at the right rate? And we're gonna end up in the right spot. Are we gonna if we do get some sync, like where does this end up? 00:30:24 Speaker 2: And so and me being like the one beating the drum. Hey guys, we're running out. 00:30:31 Speaker 1: Of time, right, So this not only not only do we have to make changes, but I need them like very quick because I'm I'm helping with some of the ideas on the changes, not a lot of them, trying to keep the scene on schedule, checking in daily, Like all right, if. 00:30:41 Speaker 2: We get these you know, we get these changes d by thursday, can we go? 00:30:45 Speaker 4: Well? 00:30:45 Speaker 2: Then the thing that. 00:30:48 Speaker 1: I feel like when I was just designing roads or bridges, I would make the change once and it would just stick. 00:30:53 Speaker 2: Right. 00:30:53 Speaker 1: It's like we'd make changes what would create another set of issues. So we get the DFM report back and like, well, that's great, we've the thin metal issue. Now we've got this other issue that's popped up or a brittle edge or something. Yeah, And so it was what three or four or five iterations, We're finally ready for our first T zero sample. We we get through all of this, we're testing stuff, we're trying to train up the facility, and it's making them kind of how things should fit you know, the end cap and I get the first part shipped to me, and this if I remember at the small and threaded into the medium end pretty well it fit. 00:31:34 Speaker 2: The middle body will not go through. 00:31:36 Speaker 1: The large end is extremely tight, and I'm like, well, this is not this is not gonna work like and this is not functional for a hunter. And then the worst part was I wanted to put the end caped on and it fell in like it was way too the end cap was oversized or our end cap was undersized, or the end of the tube was oversized or a combination thereof. Well, this is like the most frustrating part for me because I I've got all kinds of ID gauges OD gauge's calipers. But now we're sitting here in task with like how did this happen? Like what is the cause? What part needs fixed? Does both of them? Is it stacking tolerances? Is it one or the other? 00:32:14 Speaker 3: Like? 00:32:14 Speaker 2: What caused this? 00:32:17 Speaker 1: You guys got I sent I overnighted yours to you. I can remember swinging by some FedEx store. Get them to you guys, so we can start to work on this together. You guys realized we did get some like sink in the one area that got tight. We we realized that we got some sync on the end cap. And we're all kind of sitting there like, huh, because now you have the idea to either go back and spray weld your tool if you want to, if you want to add material, or you can keep machining and going out. So we're trying to like with with keeping the schedule as close as we can, like what's the right solution here, quickest, cheapest, all of those things to get us a workable, serviceable product. 00:32:58 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I YouTube stressed, and since I wasn't the designer, I was like, what do you guys gonna do? I will, but I could tell like Steven was stressed, and I we we'd sit there in his basement and just like we've done before and just iterations and we'd come up with five ten different solutions and then throw you out the best three and just having that experience through you know, years of you doing this, and it was like you've mentioned, like, this isn't my first rodeo dealing with tolerances, you know, some some of the other. And I it's funny too, because when you go through the process, you start to really appreciate what other people accomplished in products or some of the other products you have, and how you know the reads the way that you can get them to fit into some of your other products and stuff. So and that's where Steve and I and it was so cool that you kept us involved because you're totally you are totally you know, capable of doing that, but you helped you allowed us to to still stay in the mix and and help fix our own problems. 00:33:57 Speaker 5: Always kept me really nervous because I'd be modeling stuff and making a change and I send it to you and be like, man, does he know I'm not a mechanical engineer. Does he know this isn't what I do for this is a hobby, you know, So I'd be kind of nervous about it. But everything worked out pretty well. 00:34:11 Speaker 2: No, you you crushed it, steven On. 00:34:13 Speaker 1: You know a lot of times just an idea guy, or I do have a mechanical engineer that I've consulted with in the past, but I didn't want to. 00:34:20 Speaker 2: I wanted this to be you guys. And we we powered through and got there. 00:34:26 Speaker 1: So I'm stoked at how everything turned out. But let's so fast forward we're trying to come up with a solution. It's not really going to be in the design. The design is what it is. Like we know that works on a piece that is can stick to spec. We know that, but we've either got it, We've got to just we've got to either make a guess amant on if well, if that shrinks too much, then we need to open it up another five thouur tenth thou to get it to fit. Right, is there are the coil still going to hook? Like now I start to feel nervous because there's some risk and in our decisions we go back. I call it the material board, like are there some materials that just get you out of this? And this is where I'm not gonna I've told everybody in the past our tubes are all HDPE. You're not gonna get to find out what this one was. So we this tube ended up being a result of something that shrunk a little bit less but could still fit in the same tool and it would react in the tool, and it was a little bit of a blessing in disguise, maybe a little bit of a godsend. But why what we were trying to do is always worked for a tube in the past. This new material that we use on this is, in my opinion, and I'm not I get a chance to use carbon fiber beegle tubes. I use metal aluminum bugle tubes. Plastic. We kind of got backed into a material that makes an amazing beegle tube. Louder I feel it's a little more rich than what we had been testing previously, and so in order to create less shrink, we ended up landing on a material that in my opinion, is a little bit better on an elk tube and ultimately solved all the issues basically there at the end. 00:36:04 Speaker 2: So like just it's how it works. 00:36:07 Speaker 1: Sometimes it doesn't always work that way, but through material selection we cleaned up some of our issues. We did have to make us what we did have to make the end cap a little bit bigger, got the snap fit to be very very positive. We were also nervous that if it snapped, the original material we were using has more of a memory. So as we were worried, all right, your stuff an end cap and it's not quite tight enough. 00:36:31 Speaker 2: It gets hot. 00:36:31 Speaker 1: Now that end CAP's going to mold that or the the end of the barrel is going to mold the end cap. Is it going to fall out next time? Very very positive, click, We've got now materials tough. We got rid of as much of the sticking on overtightening on both ends, and really just ended up on hopefully a product that you guys can be super proud of your guys's brain child that I was able to maybe just polish along the way or luck into some decisions that made it even better. 00:37:02 Speaker 3: Well, and that's what was so cool was when you'd gotten that sample of that new material. We the initially the material was to avoid all the problems that were taking place with with tolerancing or sticking or this or that and another. And then the text we got was got the new material, and the first thing you said was it's loud. Yeah, And that was like sweet, like that icing on top of the cake and you're like, oh yeah, and everything else works. And so that was because first and foremost, we're trying to create a product that that functions, but then what's the product do? Yeah, we're trying to be out there and be loud. So that was great. 00:37:46 Speaker 1: I do a lot of what I would call like standard testing in my office, in my you know, step out of my office door on the upstairs of our shop. And it's the same place, same reads. And I told my wife after the very first one, the final final production in olive Green, I came up here and cranked on it for five six minutes make sure everything worked. I'm like my ears hurt, you know, for a couple hours afterwards. And so it's the same tubes I use up here now. The metal the carbon are both loud, but this kivin is every bit as loud, and it's it's got great back pressure. 00:38:19 Speaker 5: And I love that back pressure terminology because you know, being I like to you know, Kyle's the big elk hunor he's taken me. I'm not as you know, experienced as he is, but I remember when we were we get some feedback. It's got really good back pressure, that end cap, you know. And it's hilarious because the one I was initially when we were kind of making that that end cap was had a different purpose. 00:38:40 Speaker 4: It had nothing to do with back pressure, but the. 00:38:43 Speaker 5: Shape of it and the way that it holds the pieces in it just seems to be a really really good and it kind of it kind of amplifies and bounces anyways, it ended up being really really good with that back pressure and that you know I like to walk around. 00:38:56 Speaker 4: So oh yeah, that was intentional. Absolutely absolutely. 00:39:00 Speaker 1: Now it's a it's a home run. Like I say, it's got our logo on one side, but truly, you know, you guys did the heavy lifting and we're we're stoked to bring it out. 00:39:10 Speaker 2: Uh. One last thing we started. 00:39:12 Speaker 1: We got those tea what i'd call T one samples, the second set of samples, and I'm like, these things are way too shiny, Like I've ordered everything in like a C three finished. So just these things that keep coming up when you're trying to get stuff out, like days, you know, every single day matters, and so we had to have them go back and like, well, that is truly a C three, which I don't believe you because it's literally it's it's a it's what was left when you mild the tool out like you guys, it's it's got shiny sections, it's got doll sections, it's. 00:39:42 Speaker 2: Whatever tool you know, end mill, ball, mill and ball and mill whatever they were using to make that section. 00:39:48 Speaker 1: You guys didn't spray it after, so you know, kind of kind of fought with the manufacturer a little bit like, no, you guys didn't. 00:39:54 Speaker 2: I'm not paying for that. 00:39:55 Speaker 1: You guys did not give us a C three finish, But now that we're here, give me like a D one finish. 00:40:00 Speaker 2: So we've got this thing. 00:40:01 Speaker 1: So one of the downsides, maybe the only downside to the Kiven Tube is its modularity prevents any cover from going on up besides a short section of the big end, which we don't provide at this point. So that's why me being a hunter making sure we get everything out of this weekend, we go to that very very dull, olive green matt finish. You know, maybe somewhere in the future we provide some little cover for it, but as of now, the Kiven Tube will be completely exposed plastic on the outside, which is just a nature of the function. 00:40:36 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and that intention being that it'll fit anywhere in its backpacks and a couple holders, I mean they were they're all built to spec for kind of that Nalgene bottle that that outdoorsy water bottle size, and so the bezel is built around that size, so it'll fit in any of any your your pack pockets. And that's where that's where it stays. And and it h you can you can even take that piece out and keep it on the end of the call. I've had I've had some people do that and tighten up because there's a little strap around some of those pieces and keep that on there if you wanted to keep the camera on the end. 00:41:13 Speaker 1: But yeap, And one of the cool things is you don't got to extend all three sections. You can just extend the mouthpiece and the middle section if you want less volume, a little tighter sound. 00:41:22 Speaker 2: So it's it's got a ton of a ton of utility. 00:41:27 Speaker 1: I kind of joke at the sportsman shows or play around with it like it's a great gobble tube. If you're trying to gobble in the turkey and you have it completely condensed, you know, if you have it half if you have it halfway out, you know, it's a great coyote call. 00:41:39 Speaker 2: So it truly is a good call. Might they are available now, you know, at all of. 00:41:45 Speaker 1: Your your favorite outdoor retailers, and then also on the website a little shameless plug there. But our team crushed it. So back to the schedule, we get this, we pull the trigger. They found one more issue right that the end of one of the coils was collapsing, and once again we had to make like a split second decision. They basically proposed us with three options. You know, I just like our stuff to look good as well as function. They said one would just be a cosmetic issue. But we ended up you know, cleaning it up with option three, making it kind of slide in better. So that was like one last second thing, and then got the tubes in. We built three thousand of them, assembled them, boxed them in two days, and yeah, they're shipping out. Matter of fact, as we're recording the email, I just got a report that a very large chunk of them went out today to all the retailers. So today is July first, so we're this will air on July tenth. So yeah, it's just kind of cool to see the process, see everything moving, and. 00:42:45 Speaker 2: You know, praise the. 00:42:46 Speaker 1: Lord whatever you whatever you believe in. But uh, this thing like barely made it in by the skin of our teeth. 00:42:54 Speaker 4: You know. 00:42:54 Speaker 2: I was worried that some of these big retailers would cancel us. 00:42:57 Speaker 1: You know, they had canceled dates by July one, but we today is July one, and everything made it and is out and going to be available. 00:43:06 Speaker 3: No cool, and it was. It was so fun watching everyone's effort and the fact that you know, and I mentioned this before, you kept us in the loop and that was so cool to see because from a base from where we started and Steven's basement just designing that that Star Wars sword Style tube, being able to watch a product go to market, I cannot express the amount of steps and challenges and everything that are faced. And then when you're Steven and Kyle Bradshaw and then you have Jason Phelps, who are who's helping you to the finish line, and then watching you go through this process, it was it was a huge learning experience and I'm it it was such a good decision for us because for us to finish this thing off without your expertise and to watch you, you know, you're saying, by the grace of God, but that Jason, that watching you got it there at the end. I mean the way that you can push in your business sense working with the manufacturers and everything, and then your business relationships with the with the distributors. I'm sure you know everything that you've built from Phelps game calls is really what I think got this same are in time. 00:44:12 Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate that. 00:44:13 Speaker 1: And it's just I don't want everybody to be an engineer or an entrepreneur or think they can do this. 00:44:18 Speaker 2: But you guys got to see it. 00:44:19 Speaker 1: It's weird, like until you know, you don't know right, it's it's but now that you've gone through the process once, like I could probably do that again, Like it's not that scary anymore. There's a lot of work that, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of work between you know, us talking and where we got to. But what else you're gonna do with that time anyways, You're gonna be working somewhere else. So it's just it's just a process. And and I think a lot of people and this this this extends the life and and any tough situation is like you just don't give up on it, like we from the time I knew it was a good idea and had some merit in the ELK cunning world, like that was all I needed, Like I can navigate this. 00:44:57 Speaker 2: It's just time effort. 00:44:58 Speaker 1: Sometimes it could be too much money, don't get me wrong, but you know, as long as as long as the finances all make sense, it's just effort and I'm gonna be doing I have to show up to this place ten hours a day anyways, might as well be working on something that I like and passionate about. 00:45:12 Speaker 2: And so, yeah, it is a it is a. 00:45:16 Speaker 1: A difficult process, sometimes nuanced, sometimes complex, a lot. 00:45:20 Speaker 2: Of moving parts. 00:45:21 Speaker 1: But once you've went through it once, hopefully this will give you guys confidence to uh, you know, tackle anything else that that comes your way. And and that's that's a great segue into like the future of Kyvan because we we have the Kyvin Beagle two. 00:45:34 Speaker 2: But you guys are doing other stuff. 00:45:36 Speaker 1: I'm knowing you guys, getting to know you better over the last year a year plus, Like, I'm sure you guys got more stuff like what's next on the in the basement of Stephen Bradshaw and Kyle dreaming of crazy ideas. 00:45:48 Speaker 4: Top secret. 00:45:51 Speaker 1: You're still trying to still trying to file those pat provisional patents. 00:45:56 Speaker 2: You know that. 00:45:56 Speaker 3: So we definitely have like a bundle of ideas things that we've been prototyping and something that Steve and I have looked at and I really haven't aired this out to anywhere or anyone else, would be that you know, maybe kind ofn turns into a business that helps other people get their ideas to Like maybe it's something that you come to us and we have the knowledge to know how to get your product to market, you know, maybe creating different business relationships and rapid prototyping, you know, along the side of some of the things that we have in the works which I won't won't use. I won't sell anything I haven't used, So a lot of things that we've created, I'll be you know, hunting with this fall and and maybe even handing out to some other people I know. But uh, but that's kind of where that's kind of where we're at with it. We're really excited because this just initial product, this our flagship product is what we call it. You you really do need a little bit of capital to start. Like everyone you know you can you can go out and get business loans and do this, that and another, but to have the initial startup and I think you mentioned this in one of your podcasts, like you need you need, you do need some money to get in front of people right and and to sell your product and do it right. We definitely. 00:47:20 Speaker 4: Know that there's. 00:47:22 Speaker 3: Some challenges to just getting out there in the hunting space. Like you know, there's always room for entry, but to be loud and to for people to know your name. And you got to go to the expos. You got to go to the TACK events and and and create all those relationships and stuff. And and we're I think we're we're I think you'll see us. 00:47:43 Speaker 1: Around Yeah good good, So yeah, I think you guys are you know, this is this is my uh my, not you guys. You know, you guys are great guys and uh some you know people I wouldn't has stated to tell other people to do business with. You know, seen your guys' thought process and and this this is you know, this is not not to blow smoke to anybody, but like I've always felt like the people. 00:48:07 Speaker 2: Now, you gotta have a good product. But once there's a good product. 00:48:09 Speaker 1: Like the people behind it are more important to me than than maybe the product itself. 00:48:13 Speaker 2: And so I'll vouch for you guys any day of the week. 00:48:16 Speaker 1: Stoke to get to know you guys work on this and then yeah, now we just got to crush this thing and and uh, you know, take care of take care of our marketing side and make sure everybody you know has one of these moving forward. 00:48:27 Speaker 3: Maybe kill some elk along the way. 00:48:29 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well we'll see if I can, if I can figure out figure that out. 00:48:35 Speaker 3: That's what I joked with you. I was like, so now that everything now that is for sale, right, I think Steven he said he had a plan for us all to go hunting hunting together on the hick read. 00:48:44 Speaker 4: Or on the. 00:48:46 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll have to if this, if this thing takes off like we think it will, well maybe put that in the budget for next year. We go down and gate and hickorya tags. No, it's been awesome getting to know you guys. Now, well now you kind of told a hunt story about your first dog. You guys have any hunting stories you want to share before we close this thing up and wrap it up. It seems like we've been stuck on the tube the whole time, which is cool, but I want to give you guys a chance to talk about your favorite hunts or anything you guys have did the school or that you have coming up. 00:49:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know we're I've never drawn heck, I've never really drawn a good tag. Everything we've done over the counter and hunt Idaho, Wyoming, I've bounced all around I'm always dragging Stephen long too. He's got he's got kids, young kids, so his priority. 00:49:34 Speaker 5: Struggle shifted struggle to get away a ton. But I try to go at least once or twice a years. Luckily, le basically my guide. We have said any many elk and many many deer, and I won't say where. But it's been a lot of time. 00:49:47 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think it'd be fun just to give a snidbit into like I think, just some advice, if that's okay, Jason, Yeah, yeah, I mean, so if I were to think of an elk hunting story, and like I said, I haven't been elk and very long, I mean twenty seventeen and started watching after that initial call in that I mentioned, I started watching YouTube videos and started watching you know, how to call, how to make those different noises? And there's no secret sauce. But there's so much hunting information out there right now. I mean, I mentioned YouTube University is a real thing. The amount of information that you can get just watching YouTube videos and reading books. And in a short time. You know, I've killed elk every year since then, I've killed a bowl. There was one year I did not my brother William. He drew a limited entry elk tag down on the Mantai, and I would encourage anyone if you want to learn stuff about elk, you can do all that. But in the field, especially when you have a tag opportunity or someone in your family or friend has a tag opportunity, and you can utilize the experience that goes along with being in areas with elk. You know, I mean a lot of these over the counter units, they're just so hard to be into elk every day and to learn their habits, especially when they're heavily pressured. But on that on that Manti hunt, you know, we it was a ten day hunt at the time. We hunted just just about every day, and going into different canyons and calling in different bowls and walking up to maybe where elk used to be and learning, okay, this is why they're here, you know, this is these are the features that you should be looking for, and and then then talking to elk and okay, why is it, why did that elk come in versus where this one didn't, And just having an abundance of elk that you can learn from really in in in the sense that you just wouldn't get that on every over the counter hunt. So if you're just trying to learn how to elk hunt, and I would say, go go on somebody's limited entry elk hunt and and get out there and do that. That's where most my my elk hunt knowledge I think came from was was doing that and then jumping into those over the counter units and taking all that. But like Jason, you know, any of these shows, Dirk, they're very willing to help you to on. Like I remember, Dirk doesn't know this too. I went up to him one time. I was like, hey, how do I sound. You just run up and you blow in their face and they go, oh, well look I would try this maybe a little bit, or do this that another and it's fun. 00:52:20 Speaker 2: But no, no, that's great advice. 00:52:24 Speaker 4: You know. 00:52:24 Speaker 1: I always tell everybody. Number one, which piggybacks on yours, is don't go out there and expect to kill the biggest bulls right off the bat, Like there's steps. 00:52:32 Speaker 2: There's levels to this game. 00:52:34 Speaker 1: So you know, you hear all these kids nowadays there's levels of the game, like there are levels to hunting, Like that's it's not near as easy to go kill and now it can't happen. You know, go kill the big six point, you know, the biggest bowl in the mountain. Go, you know, kill kill a cow. First kill a small bowl, and then work your way up. And like you said, great units opportunity where you can work a bowl every morning, every evening, so much more valuable than spending three days trying to even find an oak. Now there's there is value. And what did it take to find those elk? And where did you finally find them? But you know, when you do that, you only get to work three, four or five bowls a year. Where where I grew up, I would get the hard to you know, even not necessarily such special units, but like very hard to get to spots where I would see twenty thirty legal bowls in a day. 00:53:19 Speaker 2: Like I got lots of opportunity. 00:53:21 Speaker 1: I could screw up two or three times in a morning, two or three times at night and just run through that over and over, which definitely flattens that learning curve, which there aren't over the counter spots like that around here anymore. But those special units that have lots of elk can still produce that sort of an experience. And I can I agree one hundred percent that you want to get better elk hunting and YouTube university is a is a real thing, but sometimes it doesn't translate real well. It can give you the basis and the knowledge, but I have just found over talking to a lot of people and sometimes year after year, five years after five years after you know, over a long period of time, some of these people are just reluctant to do it no matter how many times I say, well, you need do this or you know, think about doing that. There's like I can't bugle when I'm that closed, you know, and or whatever it may be, not saying that's always right answer. But yeah, you still go out there and develop your own system the way you want to l hunt. Make sure you have a little bit of success along the way. Otherwise you should probably change what you're doing. But you figured it out for yourself, you know, go out and try something, does it work, does it not? Did it work again, did it not? And eventually just you know, reel it in. So no, great great advice, Kyle, That's great. 00:54:32 Speaker 3: Yeah, and kind of a closing note. I wanted to just I can't. I could sit here and lift list off people. But the hunting industry has an immense amount of support, and we had support from family members, to friends, to influencers in the community and just people in the hunting space. It's a good it's a good place to be in it. People want to see succeed and if anybody out there has ideas and the ideas to make products better, I'd say just try it, you know, get out there, go to some of these events, and I think you people would be surprised how supportive the hunting industry is. It's great. 00:55:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's a pretty cool group. 00:55:13 Speaker 1: So once again, can't thank you guys for coming on the podcast, and enough can't thank you guys for giving us a chance to be a part of your your flagship product, your first product. And here's the kind of crushing it here in the next two or three ten years to have a feeling the idea and the technology behind that, Kuyvin Coyle lock is what we're going to build a lot of our new stuff on. I'm moving forward so excited about that. You guys have a great summer and we'll stay in touch for sure, as. 00:55:42 Speaker 2: You know, fall approaches. 00:55:43 Speaker 3: Thanks Jason, Thanks appreciate it. 00:55:45 Speaker 2: Yeah, take care 00:56:00 Speaker 4: The back hand s