00:00:13 Speaker 1: And we're back with another episode of Cutting the Distance podcast. I'm Dirk Durham, and today I have a man on the podcast, someone who I admire a whole bunch. He's a family man. He's probably one of the toughest guys I know for back country hunting, probably the most fearless guy I know for back country hunting, and very talented and an accomplished bow hunter. Welcome to the show. 00:00:43 Speaker 2: Ron. 00:00:44 Speaker 1: Is it njolic? 00:00:45 Speaker 2: How do you how? 00:00:46 Speaker 1: It's it's kind of spelled like nisiolic, but it's yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks for coming on today. 00:00:56 Speaker 2: Good to see you again. 00:00:57 Speaker 1: Yeah. I've known Ron for a number for years. I think we kind of got really good, well acquainted back in the days, back when I was a co founder of a magazine elkhunting magazine called Extreme Elk and Ron came aboard to edit articles and to write articles for us on there and got acquainted with him and got to know about all of his backcountry experiences in the beautiful state of Wyoming. And I will I'll kind of say one thing that always kind of stood out is Barren counters. You always, you know, you always had a good elk hunting story, but it seems like there was always some barre encounters or one from one way or another, you know, every few years, you know, whether it was black bears or grizzlies. 00:01:44 Speaker 3: Mostly grizzlies, but yeah, there's there's definitely been a few through the years, but this year was just a little ridiculous, to put it mildly. 00:01:52 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, ever since, you know, a few years ago, then they got those things listed and then we all thought we were going to get a bear hunting season, and then that got shut down. So I think we've all been kind of sitting here holding our breath hoping that we get a grizzly bear season, you know, even even if it is a very limited opportunity, because I know Wyoming and Montana the grizzly populations have exploded and which triple a to Idaho pretty well. So what's your take on this, on the whole grizzly hunting season? Should we should we open that up and get that thing going. 00:02:35 Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's what should be done. But you know, anymore, it seems like seasons are, especially for the predator animals, the seasons are determined by voters instead of by biology. So voters and or judges, and you know, the grizzly situation, it's just the anti hunters find a sympathetic judge to their cause and just with a magic wand and they just put you know, the season that we did have, they put the debosh on it, and it's yeah, it's just a pipe dream at this point, I don't know if it'll ever happen. 00:03:12 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which makes elk hunting is kind of scary, you know, or any kind of outdoor recreation, whether you're a hunter or not, just if you're an outdoor enthusiast. Shoot, I can't I can't imagine backpacking and why homing with my wife and kids, you know, just enjoying a beautiful day in the woods and having a grizzly bear wreck that. Yeah. 00:03:36 Speaker 2: We Uh. 00:03:37 Speaker 3: My philosophy is I try not to let them determine where I'm going to go and what I'm going to do. So, you know, if i want to hunt elk in a particular drainage, as long as I'm not aware that somebody else has killed the bull in there, there might be you know, opportunity for Grizzly to be on a carcass or you know, just a really well known spot tons of bears. You know, for the most part, I just go wherever I want. I'm not scared, but definitely a little bit cautious and just have a little bit of respect for what they can do. 00:04:15 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I'm sure you probably take some pretty good measures and some things you do do do and things you don't do when you're in bear country. 00:04:25 Speaker 2: Yeah, we do. 00:04:28 Speaker 1: We were talking a little earlier about backpack hunting, and I know you said you want a real big fan, and I feel like backpack hunting and grizzly country, that's definitely something you have to be careful with. 00:04:41 Speaker 3: That's now that in particular, I'm not worried about because, first off, my philosophy on the bears is I've never heard a report of anybody hiking in the dark that's been attacked or mauled by a grizzly. And I know there have been instance is where they go hopping and you know, kill or pull out some unfortunate person and chew on them. But for the most part, at night, honestly, I just put ear plugs in so I'm not awake listening the sounds all night, and I just try to get the best night's sleep, and like I said, with the ear plugs and then you know, at least I won't hear them chewing on me. 00:05:23 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, now, I that reminded me of the story you told here a while ago. A couple of years ago. I heard you talk about an encounter in your little camp with a wolf buddy, and there was some pretty good shenanigans that went on there with that fricking wolf. If you don't mind telling that story, I'm sure our listeners would love to hear it. 00:05:48 Speaker 2: Oh, I can do that. 00:05:49 Speaker 3: So a young friend and I were backpacked in about seven miles and we were doing some horn hunting, and one of my favorite things to do, at least it used to be. Util I got two busted up anyway, So we backpacked in one weekend and got the tent set up and just a little cooi tent and took off going horn hunting and scouting for the rest of the afternoon. And we came back to camp that evening and the tent's broken down. You know, the poles were sticking out everywhere, and it's just demolished by a bear. The bear chewed on my buddy's wife's sleeping bag. Left mine alone. So anyway, with nothing better to do, he just broke the tent down and threw our sleeping bags out on the on the ground cloth. So and I was on one side, my buddy's on the side right next to a big rock, and we had our backpacks propped up there. He had his h his socks, and his shirt laid out on top of the sage brush. I just stuck mine in my sleeping bag to hopefully dry him out, and then went to bed. I put in my famous ear plugs, and a little while later I could I could hear a wolf howlan or a couple of them. I thought, man, those things are pretty close, and just went to sleep. And I got woken up by my buddy just yelling get out of here, get out of here. So you know, my immediate thought was bear. So I'm sitting up, pulling out of your plugs, finding my headlamp, finding my pistol, get all that stuff done, and turn on the headlamp. Well there's a dang wolf like ten feet from him, of not a young wolf but probably medium's eyes black wolf, just sitting there staring him in the face from about ten feet away. And so he yells, get out of here again. Well, the wolf reaches down and this is no bs, like this truly happened. The wolf reaches down and grabs a boot and takes off running, and my buddy panics and he's like he's got my eff and boot, and it's like it's a brutal backpack job to get in there. I mean, it's just it's a lot of rock, so hiking out of their barefoot wouldn't have been fun. So the wolf stopped like twenty yards out in this age brush. I could see him, but he couldn't, so I cranked around at him, and you know, the muzzle flash couldn't tell what happened. So got up stumped into boot someone out there, and I couldn't find any any sign that actually hit the wolf. But I did find the boot, and on the way walking back to where we were sleeping, I found his daypack or his backpack, and so we're looking around and I look at the rock where my pack's supposed to be right next to his, and mine's gone too, So that dang wolf had drug off both of our packs while we were sleeping and then come back and was sniffing my buddy's face. So, but the story just gets better and better because the wolf liked to really pick on my buddy. So we get up in the morning, or I get up, he's still laying and sleeping bag and I go stomping around just looking for any blood or any sign that I might have hit the wolf, and don't find anything. But before I on my way back to camp, I found both his socks with the ankle chewed out of one of them, and it was the only pair of socks he had. So for the rest of that day he hiked around with his ankle right on the leather. But so I was just laughing. I said, dude, look at your socks, you know. So we get we get all dressed, and we take off hiking, and we're gone most of the morning. 00:09:34 Speaker 2: And we had. 00:09:35 Speaker 3: Split up and we met up. I was like eleven o'clock or so, and he's got this look on his face and he's like, dude, smell my shirt. I think the wolf piste on it. So I took a whiff, and I'm like, oh my god, maybe you want to vomit. You know, it really stunk. So when he put his shirt on in the morning, he thought it was damp from the frost. You know, that happened overnight, so he didn't pay any attention to it. But the wolf really did piss on a shirt. So it just kept getting funnier for me. I had a big belly laugh, and we go, you know, we were all done antler hunting. We had to hike out of there. So we go walking back to camp and we come down the trail and do a little clearing where we were a camp. Well, the damn wolf is sitting there, like at forty yards just looking at us. Of course we're all excited there he is, you know, a little bastard. So anyway, well he just kind of trots towards us up to twenty yards like what's up, guys, And anyway, it sounded like a gunfight when we escorted him out of the clearing, went back to camp in the tent or the sleeping bag. The camp's fine. So we loaded up and hiked out of there with our stuff, and it just got funnier. Two days later he texted me again and he's like, dude, check your pack. I think he pissed on mine, or he did piss on mine. So when he got home, he left his pack in and it was really warm for a couple of days and when he opened when he opened the door, that wolf piss had just been marinating in there, and like, yeah, he. 00:11:09 Speaker 2: Said, it just almost made him puke. 00:11:12 Speaker 3: So anyway, that's I just got lots of laugh and we figured the wolf picked on all his stuff because he had five dogs at the time, so I think all that smell kind of spurred on the wolf to pick on all of his stuff. So it was it was great. And I talked to the game warden the night we got out, and he said that a pack of wolf, pack of wolves had come out of Yellowstone Park and we're kind of terrorizing up in that area and they had shoot on site orders for him because they were causing so much problems. So anyway, I think they got I think they got whacked. But one of the one of the ranches up there actually had a video that's probably the same younger black wolf. They went out and he wasn't scared at all, and they threw a ball and he actually went and grabbed it. Oh yeah, it's pretty crazy. But you know, in the park, it's not it's not a pristine environment. They're really habituated to people, all the animals there, So that's why he didn't, you know, didn't display any fear whatsoever of us. 00:12:15 Speaker 1: He's probably waiting for you guys to throw a twinkie to him or something. 00:12:18 Speaker 2: I know. 00:12:19 Speaker 1: Right. 00:12:20 Speaker 3: Anyway, my buddy said, when he felt and heard that thing sniff in his face, he just knew it was a grizzly, you know, gonna come eat him. So he's little relieved that was just a wolf. 00:12:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, thought he's gonna get his face ripped off. Oh yeah, pretty much. I bet that was pretty scary and then funny, mostly funny, you know, Yeah, that's awesome. 00:12:44 Speaker 3: He was scared a little bit, and honestly, when you turn on a headlamp and there's a wolf ten feet away staring at you, it's not the best feeling. But yeah, when he grabbed his boot, that was probably the funniest part. Listening to him in his Panic voice saying he's got my eff. 00:12:58 Speaker 2: And boot. 00:13:01 Speaker 1: Man. He love it. 00:13:02 Speaker 2: I love it. 00:13:03 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's always good to have a buddy to to make fun of, but something like that too, So absolutely, I hope something like that happens to Phelps sometimes when him and I are out, man, it'll probably happen to me. He'll he'll make. 00:13:17 Speaker 3: Sure he's not armed, and then you can pull some kind of a good prank on him. 00:13:21 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:13:22 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, I'll start messing with his stuff. Oh man, I think both done into your pack there. 00:13:28 Speaker 3: But. 00:13:30 Speaker 1: String everything out of it. Uh So we have a question. So you're longtime archer, very successful, and everybody knows everybody likes to talk about elk cutting, and everybody knows I love to talk about elk cutting. What what do you what's your mode? Are you a spot and stock guy or you a call guy or you kind of a hybrid guy. What what do you do? What's your tactics for for elk? 00:13:56 Speaker 3: I do everything me personally, I prefer the spot in stock method of things. But having switched on areas a while back, this newer one has a lot more timber. That makes the spot in stock plan a little harder to execute. So I just incorporate everything that that it takes to get it done. You know, hopefully spot them first or hear them close. The gap is ninety nine percent of the battle I think is is getting in there close and then either call or finish the stock. But you know, for me, ell cutting is two speeds basically, or either you know, covering ground and until you find one, see one or hear one, and then you're you know, hustling like crazy to get close and then it slows slows down either to the calling mode or the stock. So but yeah, I do. I do a little bit of everything. I've had really good good luck calling lately this year, since the bulls seemed to be super call shy. When I finally shot the one, I did be agle to locate and then I just snuok in quiet and I positioned myself up above three three bulls in this one narrow little drainage, kind of got above the middle one. I was waiting for one of them to come up into a clearing behind me and then I'd make a move. And the one that I was above, just one hundred yards or so, he came up right to me. 00:15:32 Speaker 2: So it made it really easy. 00:15:35 Speaker 1: So you hunt quite a bit of gnarly, steep, deep country is probably high elevation. What are you doing to get in shape and stay in shape to navigate navigate that country and especially with some of your physical imitations, like you fought back injuries for years, and how do you how do you maintain that mental toughness to push through some of that pain in those tough days, to just continue to keep grinding. 00:16:03 Speaker 3: My wife would tell you that I'm more stubborn and stupid than I am tough, and sometimes I agree with her. 00:16:12 Speaker 2: Anyway. 00:16:12 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've had a long history twenty plus years of back surgeries. Ten ten years ago, I had a fusion and my third fusion in my back that just didn't work made everything worse. So the following year, since I was still struggling with it, I had a spinal cord stimulator put in and that helped with my legs, but it didn't help with my back, so that kept declining. Man for the last few years, I missed a lot of mostly mornings going out hunting, and I just had to tell my buddies I can't go. You know, I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to make it, and they're all pretty understanding. I think it was probably harder on me than them, because I don't like to let anybody down. And then this last summer I went to the Mayo Clinic just for a last try. You know, is there anything possible it could be done? Or do I just have to suck it up and live with it. So and I had doctors in my local area assure me that, oh yeah, you know, everything's been done that could be done. And the first thing the mayo told me was that fusion never took whatsoever. So they recommended, you know, refusing that level and also the next one up it was time. 00:17:40 Speaker 2: For that one. 00:17:41 Speaker 3: So anyway, in December, I went there and I had the had the surgery. They took the rods out of my you know, real low back, put in some new ones to cover those new levels. And anyway, it took a while for me to get over it or start making some progress. I was restricted for three months, so March in April or probably April, I you know, I was able to at least start walking outdoors a little bit and doing things, and so gradually just gotten better in better shape over the summer. I'm still fat and could roll around the hills if you kicked me. But anyway, I just mind over matter whatever whatever it is. I'm still limited, you know, I certain things I can't do like I like I used to, but you just adapt, and I don't know, and maybe that's why, you know, I've switched over to more of a calling phase in my hunting, so I'm not doing these long you know, spot now two or three miles away with an hour to go before dark, and take off like a madman and go get them just a little bit more patient and slower going. 00:18:56 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you have a pretty good support group as far as friends you can call if you get a bowl down, that'll come and help help get one out, too, don't. 00:19:05 Speaker 3: I do. The area where I'm hunting has zero cell phone reception, so but over in reach, yeah, I'm able to send some texts out and I have some awesome friends that'll, you know, come help me out at a moment's notice. 00:19:18 Speaker 2: Pretty much. 00:19:20 Speaker 3: The other The other thing is I do I still prefer to hunt totally by myself. I just think it's a lot more effective. 00:19:29 Speaker 2: You don't. 00:19:30 Speaker 3: You're not trying to figure out what somebody else's thinking or adapt to how they want to do things. It's just all your own decisions. But where I'm hunting, it's just you don't. You don't follow an elk up by yourself, or if you do, go find it, but then go get somebody to come hold legs for you whatever while you're breaking it down and moving it away from the carcass, so that that's what we try to do. I'd try to have, you know, somebody else there to at least follow up with me. These grizzlies are just more brazen all the time. We've had belt taken like mine from this year, you know, whether it's overnight or just an hour or two, or we had one that while we're actually skinning the bull, seven cubs comes in and they don't care that you're there. They just come in and take over. In that situation, you're supposed to let them. Legally, it's a tough thing to do. I might nowadays, I think I might cause a little battle if I was actually working on my elk and a bear came in and tried to take it like I was there first, it's mine, you know, I'd probably do. 00:20:50 Speaker 2: Whatever it took. 00:20:51 Speaker 3: But years past, you know, if that happens, we just back out and just be thankful they didn't come in batting us around. And so if they do that like that first, the first one a few years back, the same guy that had the wolf sniff his face. It's his first bull, his first bull ever, and we had four of us in there and we're working working on the thing, his dad heard a bull bugle, so he went over to hunt this bull. And so three of us are there and we're talking and doing whatever, and all of a sudden heard a bull bugle. Kid looked up, he said, there it is. He's like, no, it's a it's a grizzly. And so the grizzly and her two full grown cubs came in and I mean as close as fifteen yards before we got out of there, and and just took it over. We had only had bear spray at the time, and it was not on our body. It was on our packs, which were leaned against a log. So we had we just had nothing. We just had to get out of there. So anyway, bad bad deal, it can it can happen. It seems to be happening more and more. 00:22:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's scary and heartbreaking too. You know, works so hard to get an elk and then you know, tim monster comes along and steals it. 00:22:09 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, and that's what we live on all year too. 00:22:12 Speaker 1: So oh yeah, yeah. 00:22:15 Speaker 3: So thankfully my wife has a cow tag, so hopefully in November next month will get some milk meat in a freezer. 00:22:31 Speaker 1: So reading reading your post, on Facebook here a week or so ago. Then I started reading down through it, and I always always wait for your posts every year because they're always really good. Okay, I talked before you you've got to you're a writer, so you have a good way to, you know, lay things out. It's always a good story. And and and as I'm reading through it, I was like, oh, yeah, this is gonna be a good story. And then then I start seeing these these uh these numbers start showing up of how many grizzlies you saw and what distances you saw them, and I'm like, what the heck's going on. Then I read the rest of the story, I'm like, oh my god, I got to get ron on here to tell this story. So so give us the breakdown how your ELK season went this fall. 00:23:18 Speaker 3: So my brother came out to visit while my mom had some knee surgery done right at the end of August. So I took him to the airport September first, and then I was just going to go to the mountains September second. Well, of course I got back to town and there's still daylight lefts It's like, man, I just thought to go. I want to spend the night in the mountains at least, so I did that, got there up there at dark. So from September second to the twenty seventh, I saw forty one grizzlies. Most of them I have pictures of, or somebody was with me, and I, like my post said, I think it was five or six. We're at you know, long distance. A few more were under two hundred yards, a few more under one hundred yards. And there's twenty six of these instances that were under fifty yards. And on five of those occasions we had pistols. 00:24:16 Speaker 2: Out o cow. 00:24:19 Speaker 1: I shot a lot. 00:24:22 Speaker 3: Yeah, I shot once this fall, mainly because I was pissed off. I wasn't trying to hit the bear. 00:24:28 Speaker 2: It was a bore that. 00:24:31 Speaker 3: He just didn't care at all that we were there. You know, we were walking on along this trail and my buddy was leading and he blew out, you know, this bear at twenty yards, pretty close, and he took off up the hills. So when I got up to him, he's like, did you see that? And I said, I saw something. I couldn't tell you what it was. He said it was a grizzly. So we looked, took a couple more steps. Well, the bear he was still only at forty yards and as we're standing there talking, he's looking at us and he starts coming at us. So it wasn't a charge. He was just walking at us. But we got our pistols out and then he got to twenty five to thirty yards probably, and I'm like, that's enough. I didn't know at the time my buddy was actually aiming at the bear, practicing getting his psyche pitcher, you know, and he didn't know that I was going to shoot. So I'm glad when I shot, I shot like ten feet to the side of the bear. I'm just glad he didn't twitch and actually shoot. He was actually aiming, right, So anyway, yeah, there was there was that one, and I think he was mainly trying that because when I got my bull and we and we got charged, and I can go into that story, but when that bear came at us, neither one of us was using our sights. We were just kind of you know, we had we had our stancer whatever, and we're I had to grip on the pistol, but we were more watching watching the bear, you know, maybe judging its reaction before we were gonna start shooting. But both both times that bear charged, it was five six yards right in that range, and neither one of us shot, and neither one of us acquired that site pitcher either. You know, bad on our part, but you know we're still learning with all this too. But I'm pretty positive how we started shooting, the bear was going to be in trouble, you know, especially being that close. We might have been too, but the bear definitely would have caught some lead. 00:26:41 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've always figured, you know, if I had to shoot a bear, I would have to wait till I got really close because at a distance even ten twenty thirty yards whatever, moving, that's a hard target to hit. And I feel like with my level of pistolero ship, then that thing's gonna have to be almost just right on me, you know. That way, I don't miss, and I can give him every bullet I got and hopefully they'll take you know, and he maybe he'll die before he gets a couple of bites out of me. 00:27:15 Speaker 3: No kidding, And from our experience reinforced this year, they don't even care that you're. 00:27:22 Speaker 2: Yelling at him. 00:27:23 Speaker 3: And when I when I shot next to that bear, he didn't care. He uh, he kind of moved quick to the side, you know, maybe two yards, and he started eating again and digging, digging up stuff. He disappeared, you know, the front half of them disappeared under a pine tree. They're eating the white bark pine and pretty soon there's these big swaths of dirt coming out when he's you know, just digging up stuff to eat. And that was right after I shot. 00:27:51 Speaker 1: It's just that's crazy. 00:27:55 Speaker 3: So yeah, warning shots, which which would be what it was if I if I was trying to shoot a bear that was charging me at twenty or thirty yards. I'm giving them warning shots because I'm probably gonna miss. I've always been like minded with you just don't even start until they're closed. That way you have more time to read the situation. Not that I'm opposed to shooting these things, because I'm really not. But at the same time, I'm just as happy if I don't have to. So I don't know a lot of people might disagree. I disagree with myself sometimes on it, like some of these things need to start dying, especially the problem ones. But honestly, in the situation this year, not with that particular one, but with the one that charged us as just doing what bears do. Thankfully didn't make contact, so that's about the best scenario. We don't get chewed on and the bears bears not dead. 00:28:58 Speaker 1: It's crazy that that we hit the bear's behavior like you guys, it was coming towards you, cracked off a shot and then he just kind of went back to feeding. What's going through that bear's mind is like, Hey, what are the heck are these things standing here? I guess they're no bother. I guess I'll just go back like I don't know. That's so weird. 00:29:22 Speaker 3: We ran into that particular bear the following evening as well, and that time you did bluff charge just a little bit. But honestly, right before that, we were talking to a backpacker that was that was coming out and he had a cann of bear spray on his back and not in an easily accessible area, which happens a lot with people around here. They just don't know how fast you need to get something into action and that you should practice doing that. But we were talking to him for a while. He told us what he you know, what he had seen up there. He saw some bear tracks up high and some mountain lion tracks, and we he had told him, like, just back behind you a couple hundred yards. The day before was a big grizzly we had that encounter with, and he's like, oh, that would have been cool to see. So after he left, we want two hundred yards up the trail, and there was a branch broken off of one of these trees. And the bears do that at times to get to some of the pine cones. They can reach a branch and to pull it down. So I saw the branch laying there and I said, oh, look, the bear's been here breaking branches. Then I'm like, holy crap, he's right. 00:30:32 Speaker 2: There, and he was. 00:30:33 Speaker 3: He was right in the trees, and he was less than thirty yards off the trail that that kid walked by. The kid had no idea the bear was there, and I might not have either if I hadn't joked about that branch. But it just seems like in that one's case, he was perfectly content to let people go back and forth and go buy them. But so we stopped the day before and he didn't like it much, came towards us, but he wasn't really aggressive. And but that night he didn't like us standing there talking and so he bluff charged us, then just back to doing his stuff. I filmed him, you know, just grubbing around and eating and digging. We went on our way and came back. So on the way back, I told my buddy, I said, well, you're in charge of this one, because if he charges us, I'm going to film you shooting him. 00:31:25 Speaker 2: You know. 00:31:26 Speaker 3: So I was walking along with my with my phone up videotape and the whole walk back by there, but. 00:31:33 Speaker 2: We didn't see him. 00:31:34 Speaker 1: Oh man, thank god. Yeah, so tell us tell us how it all went down with So you guys, you killed this bull, you were tracking it, you found it. Oh yeah, So tell us how that all played out. 00:31:57 Speaker 3: I I already told you that I, you know, snuck in close to the bugle and that one came up the hill right to me, and I had a narrow fold to shoot through the trees. It's like thirty yards. I shot him and just briefly saw it when he spun, But my impression was, oh, I hit him back. And it was like seven in the evening, or close to their half hour before dark, and like, I'm not comfortable following this up today. I know it's a chance, but I'll wait until tomorrow. So I got a couple buddies. I had a friend there from Oklahoma that was hunting the same unit. Got hold of him and he said he'd be there in the morning. And my other buddy came from halfway across the state to get there in time. And so the three of us went up there to trap this bear. 00:32:55 Speaker 2: In the morning. 00:32:56 Speaker 3: We get in there, and the one from Oklahoma, he doesn't have bear spray. He wouldn't carry bear spray or a pistol. It's just his own hunting philosophy, like, if he gets taken out, he gets taken. 00:33:09 Speaker 2: Out, it's time. Yeah, But man, when. 00:33:13 Speaker 3: You're trailing these things, I mean, we've had him find us in the elk in a half hour's time before. Sometimes it might take him two days to get on the elk, or it might take four hours, but it's happened quick before. So my buddy Randy and I were ready, and so we had our ten milimeters fifteen shots each. We get in there, I show him where it all went down, and then we get on this both trail oh and down the hill where he came from the night before. I had a trail camera set up over a wallow just to see what might be around in there. So when I shot this thing, I'm like, man, with any luck he ran down there past that camera and I'll be able to see where I. 00:34:00 Speaker 2: Did hit him. 00:34:00 Speaker 3: So we get on this trail and the blood trails really good. So I'm starting to dit, like, man, did I hit him back or not? And we get down out of the thick trees into this clearing where the wallows are. Blood trail is still good, but he hooks up up a little bit and he was too far away from the trail camera to pick it up. 00:34:22 Speaker 2: Anyway. 00:34:22 Speaker 3: We're just turning the corner starting to go into this thick patch trees. Well it's not just a patch, it's it's dense for its really good bedding area for elk. So we were just getting ready to enter into there, and I was like, I don't know, six yards six or eight yards to the right of Randy and Eddie. Eddie's the one without a pistol or spray, and all of a sudden, I hear a crack and I look up, didn't see anything right away, but Eddie said, there it is. Oh, it's coming, you know, we didn't say it was a bear. He just you know, surprise, oh coming. And he ducked back behind Randy. And that's where the bear charged first, was at him, and Randy says he was just thinking, oh man, why isn't it charging Ron instead of me? 00:35:15 Speaker 2: Get him? 00:35:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's what That's the first thing through his mind. 00:35:19 Speaker 1: I guess that's a real friend. 00:35:21 Speaker 2: Yeah, real friend. 00:35:23 Speaker 3: So anyway, we both we both have pistols out really quick, and and like I say, we're just pointing them though not not aiming, which wasn't wasn't the best deal. So anyway, this bear, Randy must has seen that it was slowing down or it turns, it turned its attention over towards me, because you know, we're we were yelling. We can't even remember what all we yelled. I remember when it charged the second time, what I said. But anyway, so the bear comes really close to him, you know, five six yards, turns and runs back to where it came from, which like we could see thirty yards ahead of us, maybe that far. 00:36:03 Speaker 2: And then. 00:36:05 Speaker 3: At that point, you know, I saw where it ran to you, and then I saw cubs. Didn't know how many, but they were big so then I know it's a she. Well she charges again. This time she does come at me, and I had a few choice words to say to her, and I think that's why she stoppedge But yeah, she might be opposed to some foul language. Anyway along the lines I will blink and shoot you, you know. And anyway, she stopped really close. My finger was I was squeezing, not shooting yet, but like all the slack was taken up and just it wouldn't have taken you know, another half a yard or something, and I was going to start shooting, but she she broke off. She never took her eyes off me until she turned and went back, like she wasn't distracted by anything else. But she did turn back, which was good. So backed up a few steps, and Randy and Eddie backed up, and then they're like, let's let's get back out of here, and I'm like, well, I want to. I need to get my bow. Which those two steps that I backed up, my bow's laying up in front of me. So I did go get my bow and we backed up, and man, it was around that time I was I remembered, holy crap, we're like out in front of this trail camera, maybe we got some pictures of all this stuff happening, and we did get a and we backed out of there. It took a little while, we got things, our pistols holstered up, and we're talking and then just finally left. Like we were one hundred percent sure that that bear was on my elk because it's right where the trail was going, so and there's nowhere like we couldn't climb up anywhere, climb a tree, you couldn't see where it was really thick, there's nowhere to get good look. But pretty confident, especially with a little experience with these stupid bears of you know, she was protecting a food source, is what I figured, because you know, we were we were talking while we were trailing, so she knew we were there for a while before she charged. We just ended up getting too close to what she was protecting. Anyway, it turns out the trail camera got a little bit of the action. You can never see the bear, but you can see one picture has Randy and Eddie on it. The next picture has Eddie kind of behind Randy and me up to the right, crouch down ready to shoot, and then from there on it was just us backing out of there and bs and then finally leaving. I did grab the camera when we left, just so I could check check everything. But so after that all happened, we waited. I think it was like five days or so. We got dumped on with a bunch of snow, and then me and Randy and friend Adam and Mary Miles. Adam was out hunting. Mary came with us and she's a good pistol shot. She's really quick on the draw too, so perfect. She came with us and we had a shotgun to go in there to just to try to recover the antlers. And they were right there, right where we figured they would be. And luckily we got out of there. There's just a ton of bear sign. They dug up, you know, probably a twenty foot wide by forty foot long area where the you know, the dead elk was and they just had everything torn up and there was nothing left of the elk except the head and the antlers, the hide, and the lower legs. 00:39:49 Speaker 2: That was it. 00:39:50 Speaker 3: They even the bears even skinned his face and ate all the meat off the face. 00:39:56 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pretty wild, so hungry. 00:39:59 Speaker 3: Yeh got that got that all, you know, cut off with my buddy's standing guarden and we got out of there thankfully with the rack. But yeah, no meat. And in all honesty, even if we were to would have pressed the issue and gone in there and maybe gotten in a gunfight with a bear, chances are the elk would have been ruined by then anyway, so we would have exposed ourselves to a lot more danger, maybe legal troubles, and probably still wouldn't have gotten any of the elk anyway. So I've heard once they once they start chewing on it, the game and fish people says, you don't want any you don't want any part of it. 00:40:48 Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, probably introduce the meat. 00:40:52 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they do. 00:40:54 Speaker 1: Plus bears, they like to scrape up a lot of pine needles and dirt and covered up and. 00:41:00 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they make a mess yep, they do like to. And it's amazing if you have a bull dye kind of in a grassy area, they make it look manicured because they sweep up all the pine needles, pine cones, branches, whatever might be there and they pile it over the carcass. And the best one of those was a few years back buddy Jason Stafford killed the bull, and we got all taken apart, moved moved the quarters away from the carcass, and came in there like eight people the next data to pack it out, and that bear had completely buried the carcass. It did go down and it grabbed one of the quarters, and the game bag brought it back. It was under the pile and he went around and he picked up all the lower legs and he put those in the pile with everything else too. 00:41:54 Speaker 2: Really, yeah, so that. 00:41:56 Speaker 3: Place looked like it was a manicured lawn. He's swept it up so nice. It is unbelievable. 00:42:03 Speaker 1: Like he had a weed whacker and a rake in there. 00:42:05 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, huh, it was. It was pretty interesting. 00:42:10 Speaker 1: In your opinion. How far is far enough ish to get your quarters away from the carcass. 00:42:19 Speaker 3: I like to say at least one hundred yards, But I want to be where I can see the carcass like I want to. I want to be able to see the quarters and see the carcass if possible. If I If I can't, then I tried to move the quarters farther away, which is what we did last year with my bull. Adam and Mary had had come up I texted them and they came out of where they were at and helped me go in there and and get my bull cut up. And we packed those quarters. Since it was in that same really dense bedding area, we packed them about three hundred and fifty four hundred yards away, Like we made two trips that day instead of making one trip and then coming back the next day and getting in there at all close to where the carcas was. So just depends, you know. I like it best if I can go in there and if I can see all these nice white bags, count them up, you know, make sure everything's there, see if anything's on the carcass, see if it's been buried or not. That's what we prefer, just a little sense of comfort if you can actually see where a bear might be. Not to say they can't be anywhere around there, but being able to see all your bags and meat lined up on top of a log, in a tree or whatever you do with them is the best thing when you're coming back for them, because where that's where I think, either trailing and out or coming back for me is where I think the most dangerized. 00:44:04 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you always hear folks who have a negative encounter. It's oftentimes after they've they've killed a bowl, got the stuff in a tree, maybe pack one, load out, and then they go back and then that's when when the tragedy strikes ye. 00:44:25 Speaker 2: To move it. 00:44:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, a few years ago, Well, it was the first time I hunted Wyoming in the part that has grizzlies, and a buddy of mine. There were three of us plus a camera guy, and one of my buddies killed this bowl and it was right at the edge of this timber but then like kind of a nice little hillside with an open meadow you could actually see from the highway. You can see it several hundred yards away from the highway. So after we broke this bowl down, the ore packs loaded. We're in one trip this thing out that way. We don't have to go back it because it's notorious for a grizzly rice And I said, hey, you know what, because there were bulls bugling in there, stills like, that's a good spot. We'd like to come back and hunt again, but if there's grizzlies in here, we don't want to. So I'm like, you know what, let's drag that carcass out into this open meadow on this hillside, and then we can glass it up from a long distance and see if anything's been on it. So, oh yeah, that's good idea. So we do this, and a couple of days later it's like, well, you know, maybe we'd like to go back in there. So we get out, pull over on the highway and we start blasting and immediately so I don't know why, but I'm the first one got my binoculars out. They're readily available. I'm like, huh, the carcass is gone. So I'm looking. I'm like, uh, you think it would just be obviously right there? And I focus focus into the timber, and then the timber, I'm like, oh, there it is. I can see the rib cage. And then I focus it, like look a little harder. It's like there's a fricking grizzly standing over the rib cage and it's this great, big sucker, and I'm like, holy cow. And camera guys are scrambling, you know, for their for their long lenses, and and my buddies are getting their their their stuff out, and I'm like, oh, there's another one. And here comes another grizzly. He walks out right out in front in that little meadow, and I'm like, holy cow, there's another one there. 00:46:23 Speaker 2: You know. 00:46:23 Speaker 1: He's walking out there and he's kind of paces back and forth camera guys. You know, of course there's he's like, man, where's my big lens this? And there's my big lends that. And all of a sudden, that big bear charges out and they start fighting, and I'm just like, oh god, they're fighting now. Then they're really scrambling, like they can't really get their cameras together quick enough. But anyway, so they're fighting, and then all of a sudden, I can hear the sound, and the first thing that came to mind was, huh, there's somebody riding dirt bikes, like four stroked dirt bikes up up in the like, and like I might kind of come to to like my senses, like that's the bears. You could hear those things roaring from that distance. It was a few hundred yards away, and you could hear them. It was that loud, which I was just blew me away. And those things fought and they were just rolling around fighting, and then all of a sudden they just stopped. They froze like they had each other in a good barehold bite a bite or something. They just froze, and then they separated and the smaller one ran off, and the big one he kind of sauntered right back up to the carcass, and the smaller one we could watch him because this big hillside you could just it was just laid out perfectly like a like a movie screen, right, and he kind of walked down a big pile of brush and walked around the corner on the side and he went over there and he just plopped down on his butt and kind of hung his head like the pout, like was pouting like, Man, I just got my ass kicked. I can't believe I really wanted some of that elk. 00:47:59 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:48:00 Speaker 1: So as we're watching this, I'm like, man, that's cool and that's crazy watching that. And then all of a sudden, another bear comes up out of the draw out of the willows. So this is Bear number three, walks up there and he kind of paces back and forth a little bit, and then he don't want none of that big bear, so he kind of wanders off, and then a little bit later another one comes out. We sat there for two hours and five different bears. They come out from different places you know, so it's not the same ones because they'd come out and disappear and go a different direction. So I know they weren't the same bears. But five different bears came out, and the last bear came out, it was getting pretty dark. But the last bear that came out, those two fought again like it was a you know, there was another fight and they got kind of got up into the timber there and we're fighting around so you couldn't really see him. 00:48:47 Speaker 2: Good. 00:48:47 Speaker 1: This a little bit too dark, But I was like, at that point in my life, I'd never seen a grizzly bear, and all of a sudden, I saw five in one night, in one setting. And we each other and I'm like, yeah, we're not hunting the anymorew we're not going back. And my one buddy's like, yeah, but now we know where all the bears are, we just have to make a big circle around him and get back in there. I'm like, yeah, no, what about the other ones that haven't made it there yet? Like I'm good. I think we need to find a different spot. 00:49:32 Speaker 3: That's pretty interesting. You mentioned that you know what sounded you like a dirt bike or something. So when we were getting close. We were still out in that clearing tracking my bowl, and Randy you know, put his hand out like quiet. You know, we listened for a little bit. I didn't hear anything. He's like, it must have been a four wheeler or something. He heard it, and it was I'm sure it was the bear's low growl or you know, maybe they were squabbling over the meet her in her three cubs and uh, but anyway, he had heard that, you know, at first he just blew it off. And Eddie and I didn't hear it, but you know, Randy just blew it off. Yeah, it must have been a four wheeler in the distance or something, but it was a I'm sure it was a gral and over where we got charged from. So but yeah, if you could have heard that, you know, those ones fighting from that far away, it'd be pretty cool to listen to it up close. 00:50:31 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:50:32 Speaker 1: I just I wish those camera guys would have you know, I wish wou'd have been ready. You know, we had no idea we're going to see that, But dang, if they'd had their long lenses to capture the bear fights and stuff, that would have been so cool. 00:50:45 Speaker 3: I took videos in fact it was. It was before I shot shot my elk. I was up hunting it a different area, probably a mile and a half two miles away, and I was up on this now and I watched a bull feed down this drainage, push a cow down into some trees, and I was thinking about going after him, got all my gear on and started down this ridge and then I'm like, well, crap, there's four bears. And it was the same sow with three cubs. Saw her a few times, and I got to watch and video a couple of those cubs just my cell phone. It's probably two hundred yards away, but they play fought for probably fifteen minutes. I got to listen to him watch them. Yeah, it was pretty neat. The third one came out and just kind of ignored them, and the mom spent most of her time in the trees. So I ran into sat and two cubs there one morning in the dark when I was going around trying to hunt this one drainage in there, and I knew there's probably bears around, and I walked into him at forty yards in my headlamp. I'm like, well, crap, pistol was out, and I was pretty well ready, and I started talking to her, playing with my head lamp, put it on strobe, and just whatever I could do to make them go away. The sow one away, but her two cubs were up a tree, you know, probably messing around getting the pine cones. You know, grizzlies can climb it, especially at that branches and stuff. But I didn't know they were in a tree until the mom walked off, and I'm like, oh, I think I'll go the other way. So I made a bigger loop and went and didn't kill a bull that morning. But coming back through, it's like, God, dang it, I know I'm going to run into them again in the daylight, and I did about sixty yards. They didn't see me at all, and I was able to circle down and around them. 00:52:47 Speaker 2: But yeah, the joys of grizzly country. 00:52:52 Speaker 1: What do you think are the chances of those larger type cubs getting involved in a charger or an attack? Do they do usually do that or they kind of pretty timid still that I don't. 00:53:06 Speaker 3: I don't really know. I'm very curious about that myself. So I got to, you know, post incident, analyzing things, you know, and that bear charged us. Why didn't. Why didn't we shoot? Because I mean, there's plenty close. We'd have been fine in that situation doing that. But part of me thinks, after the fact, I wonder, you know, if we just didn't, like one shot killer outright, I'm sure she'd have been growling, snarling, whatever, maybe chewing on us. And I wonder if that wouldn't have spurred those cubs to do the same, you know, wouldn't have brought them out. And then you know, we're trying to shoot out with a with four bears instead of one. So I don't know the answer, but I think if we would have shot that style and she would have you know, gone to snow Arlin, growland, whatever, I really think it might have brought them out to do the same thing. 00:54:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, they had came to her aid, because like you said, they were pretty big, you know, they weren't like, yeah. 00:54:10 Speaker 3: Ne were only you know, twenty five thirty yards away, so it wouldn't taken them much to get there. 00:54:16 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, and even a bear of that size has a lot of power. 00:54:19 Speaker 3: Yeah, they were big cubs. Like I'm sure she'll kick them off this next spring, but you know, and she's got we have three new grizzlies out there that no, oh, we don't have to fear humans, you know, we just go do. 00:54:32 Speaker 2: What we want. 00:54:32 Speaker 3: So they keep, for whatever reason up in this area. There's at least two sALS that are having triplets, you know, every two three years. However often they pump them out. They have triplets almost every year. 00:54:47 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:54:48 Speaker 1: Wow, Well, what what kind of advice do you have for our listeners if they're going to go hunt grizzly bear country. It sounds like you've dealt with the bears for a long time. I'm what kind of advice do you got for him? 00:55:04 Speaker 2: First? They need to be honest. 00:55:06 Speaker 3: Yeah, need to be honest with themselves, and they can't they do it comfortably. Some people think they can and they come here and you know, like the situation you were in you saw those five bears. There's times that just overwhelms people and they'll just pack up and go home. So it just has to do with readiness. And you can be the most cocky person on earth. I just go in there. I'd shoot them all or whatever. Yeah, sometimes it really doesn't work like that. They may have more enough of an effect on you than you might imagine. I guess is what I would say to a lot of people. And that's just that's not just trying to keep them out of my area, which would be awesome too, but it's just not for everybody. Seeing them is seeing them one thing is one thing, especially at a distance, and it's all that's cool, you know, seeing them up and close does something a little bit different to you. And then having encounters I don't know, I guess you get to see what you're made of. And some people have a flight reflex, some people have fight or whatever. The group of people that I share camp with not every year, just you know, whoever draws tags. 00:56:26 Speaker 2: We kind of hunt. 00:56:27 Speaker 3: Together or follow up, you know, things together, even if we can't separate. None of them have that flight reflex. Like everybody's there, everybody's ready, We're all experienced with it. And the biggest thing if somebody does come hunt Grizzly Country, the biggest piece of advice I think is whether you carry a gun or spray, practice with it. Be very comfortable with it. That's where your hand goes now actually, and don't waste time, Like if you hear something you don't quite know what it is is, start reaching for your spray or your pistol at that time while you're trying to figure out what it is that you saw or heard, because that could make the difference. 00:57:19 Speaker 1: Yeah, you were telling me about it fast. You're telling me about a friend of yours that had an encounter. Can you can you tell that story real quick? 00:57:28 Speaker 3: It just happened like just a few days ago. I haven't talked to them. I just saw a Facebook post about it. But this son and dad were hunting together. I don't know if they shot an elk and were following it up, or if they'd just gone into the trees after some elk. But the son heard what he was pretty sure wasn't elk, and he pulled his pistol, which happens to be a ten milimeter, and what he heard was a grizzly bear, and the grizzly charged it him, not his dad, and he was able to He shot fifteen times or however many he hit the bear, like four times. It turned and it sounded like he hit it twice more. So that's pretty good heat of the moment. You know, if you could hit one four or six times out of fifteen shots, or even get all fifteen shots off at close quarters. You know, that's pretty good. And then I also read that the dad either didn't get his rifle off his shoulder or he did but he couldn't get the safety to work. You know, Jack in Theeschell gets safety off in time to help out. So yeah, it happened fast, and this kid was on his toes and he just maybe had that instinct like hey, I don't think that elk and he without even seeing the bear, he got his pistol out, so he was he was kind of ready when it happened. And that's just that's just what you have to do, you know. Had had Randy been sure like hey, I think that was a growl I heard when we were tracking my bull, we would have him out right then and been ready, but as it was, we didn't. We didn't get him out until she was already charging. 00:59:27 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well that's awesome. That's that's awesome information and scary too. Well man, thanks for coming on the podcast today. Where can people find you if they want to look you up on social. 00:59:41 Speaker 3: Just my name Ron Niziolic on Instagram and and Facebook. 00:59:49 Speaker 1: Yeah sounds good. Well, I appreciate you coming on. Good catching up with you hopefully good to catch up. It won't be so long until we catch up again. I haven't talked to you for a. 00:59:59 Speaker 2: While, so all right, sounds good? 01:00:01 Speaker 1: All right? 01:00:02 Speaker 2: Well, thanks thanks Jart