00:00:02 Speaker 1: From Mediators World News Headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This is Cal's Weekend Review, presented by Steel. Steel products are available only at authorized dealers. For more, go to Steel Dealers dot com. Now here's your host, Ryan cal Callahan. 00:00:22 Speaker 2: Welcome everybody to another special drop of Cal's Weekend Review. With me today as always, Jordan Sellers. Jordan, would you like to say hello everyone and Mike abel of Kentucky bha as in Kentucky backhuntry hunters and anglers. Many of you have written in on this subject and we found the boots on the ground, so to speak. So, Mike, if you wouldn't mind, would you mind just giving us a quick rundown of where you're at in life. You're a retired colonel and a teacher, and you're spending a lot of time volunteering. But if you wouldn't mind giving us some details on those before we get into the threat du jour in Kentucky. 00:01:22 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm very excited to cover the Threat du jour with you and grateful that you guys are willing to help us. I'm colonel retired Mike abel I spent twenty six years in the United States Army Infantry, retired on my forty six birthday and was already involved in conservation work with multiple groups in Old Kentucky in the Commonwealth, and. 00:01:47 Speaker 4: Was blessed to help be a. 00:01:50 Speaker 3: Founding member a plank holder, if you will, for Kentucky Chapter of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. 00:01:58 Speaker 4: And my wife and I have hunted. 00:01:59 Speaker 3: All over the world old fished all over the world. I've published a few articles in a book on on it. You know, as Hal reminds me, and how was kind of my mentor in some. 00:02:10 Speaker 4: Of that writing. 00:02:11 Speaker 3: He reminded me, you know, uh, once your family and friends by are done by in the book, you're probably never going to sell another copy. But still was fun to do that kind of stuff, and I'm still doing it. Came out of retirement to teach uh Junior RTC in a in a tough part of the city Louisville, and had an absolute blast, fell in love with the kids in the school. But kind of once we got the program stood back up. After COVID, it was time to retire again and and get one hundred percent back into hunting, fishing, trapping, traveling, and advocating for our resources and conservation. 00:02:49 Speaker 5: And Mike, what what got you to start this Baja chapter, Because you know, obviously there's a lot of pre existing. 00:03:02 Speaker 2: Conservation groups all over the country. 00:03:05 Speaker 3: So we we'll be five years old this year and in our Kentucky Backcountry Hunters an English chapter, and you know, I would go to RMEF chapter meetings. 00:03:20 Speaker 4: I would go to Spark Club chapter meetings. I would go to you know, a lot of the rod and gun clubs and do the conservation work. 00:03:28 Speaker 3: As I was coming up as a middle aged man and now in my fifties, and I was one of the youngest people at those meetings. And then we had kind of a a pint night to designate or figure out if there was any interest for BHA here in the Commonwealth. 00:03:46 Speaker 4: And I was the oldest guy in the room. 00:03:48 Speaker 3: It was all these young, talented people that looked like Jordan, you know, they weren't gray and the beard, you know, like me, And they weren't you know, they were still in that building phase of their hunting, fishing, outdoors men or outdoors women lifestyle, and they decided to include conservation in part of what they were doing as a human being. Meanwhile, every other organization I was in was a bunch of graybeards and as we call them, grizzled folks. And so right then and there, I was like, well, we got to do this. We've got to get young people involved in conservation to begin with. And I'm still the oldest person on the board of directors in Kentucky at fifty two, soon to be fifty three, and we have a lot of young talent and that makes me happy for the future. So that's kind of the genesis of There was some of us that were middle aged at that meeting and we just looked around the room and said, if there's this much young talent, we absolutely have to do the paperwork and go through the hoops. 00:04:46 Speaker 4: And at that time, Ty was our. 00:04:49 Speaker 3: Chapter coordinator, and Ty helped us get through all that stubfield and. 00:04:54 Speaker 4: We've rocked it in Kentucky. 00:04:56 Speaker 3: We had forty one events last year and we'll probably eclipse that this year. We're getting ready to go to our biggest wildlife management area down in West Kentucky this year, and we used to just clean that up. We've filled construction dumpsters down there, but now we're also going to do habitat work in conjunction with our big Turkey study. So we're going to see if volunteer habitat work will have an effect. Hopefully the scientists that's working on that will see their GPS birds use the habitat more after we improve it. So we're doing a lot of great things here and I'm super proud of our chapter. So Kentucky BHA, just delay this groundwork right before we talk about. What we're really here to talk about is doing more in Kentucky than just bitching and complaining absolutely positively. 00:05:46 Speaker 4: You know, we in those forty one events we did last year. 00:05:49 Speaker 3: Of course we count our social events our pint nights, but at our pint nights we like to have speakers, and you know, we've had people speak on different subjects and you know, I had a seventy two year old career waterfowl are coming and talk about waterfowl and waterfowl hunting and his dogs, and you know, the younger audience has just riveted to get that wisdom. And then in addition to those you know, pint knights that are also learning experiences, we do a lot of habitat work. You know, one of the funnest days we ever had was we we helped the biologists mark the the and the wildlife technicians mark the boundary of the Marion County WMA and National are and. 00:06:26 Speaker 4: State forest excuse me, state forest. 00:06:28 Speaker 3: And by the end of the day, all the people that were painting trees were covered in yellow like big Bird, and me and my buddies were exhausted from carrying you know, five pounds and nails and all the signs to mark the boundaries. We've done hacking squirts, we've hund wood duck boxes, We've built wood duck boxes. 00:06:44 Speaker 4: You know. 00:06:44 Speaker 3: It's our funnest event annually is we backpacked trout into the bottom of the Red River Gorge. The biologists cannot get enough manpower to do that, and it's really cool. 00:06:55 Speaker 4: We'll be there. 00:06:55 Speaker 3: They'll bring some high school kids, but we'll put forty or fifty people off of the trailhead down into the gorge, which is a pretty challenging hike with a backpack full of water and live trout. 00:07:08 Speaker 4: That's probably our most popular event. 00:07:11 Speaker 3: But you know, as I've told the chair of the Commission, our official live commission, I told the previous chair, you know, you give us a list. Originally, they they wanted us to propose events and do all the paperwork, and finally I just said, how about you guys give us a list. You keep saying no to our habitat projects and the things we want to do to make public lands and public waters better in the state. 00:07:38 Speaker 4: And they gave us a list at the next commission meeting. 00:07:41 Speaker 3: And I was hoping it would take a year or two that we would make friends with the regional biologists. It took months. Once the regional biologists figured it out that we had manpower that was excited and willing and happy to do these projects, they started calling us. So we're blessed to have that relationship with the boots on the ground scientists, both in wildlife and fisheries, and they reach out and we work with them. We work with the wm A managers, the National Forest managers, so that it's a relationship driven way to improve what we've got and to try to make it better. 00:08:17 Speaker 2: For everybody's That's awesome, and that's great segue into what we're going to talk about today. That issued dujur that we talked that we alluded to earlier. If you're listening to the show, you know, if a state is in session, if your commission, your Wildlife Commission is meeting. There is something that can be gained or lost in this big hunting, angling, outdoor community of ours. So, Colonel Mike, if you wouldn't mind laying out the situation for us, and then if you do that first, and then we'll kind of get up to speed on where we're at right now. 00:09:02 Speaker 4: Absolutely, Ryan, here's the deal. 00:09:05 Speaker 3: In twenty twenty two, we had a very similar bill House built three ninety five, and the same groups, Kentucky back Country Hunters and Anglers Kentucky and a Safari Club, the League of Kentucky Sportsmen, and some other smaller conservation groups, and a whole bunch of Roden gun clubs and a bunch of independent outdoors women and men came together and we defeated a bill that was very similar to this. That bill House Built three ninety five from twenty twenty two sought to give appointment authority of our Fish and Wildlife Commissioners to the Commissioner of Agriculture. We thought we had killed that and we were having a really good session. There was over twelve hundred bills dropped, and we monitored every one of those bills in the Senate, in the House and on the very last day, at the very last minute, Senate Bill three dropped. So in Kentucky, if it's a very low number bill, it means it's a Senate leadership priority. And the fact that it was Senate Bill three means they've been working on it for probably four months, probably even before the session started in January. And Senate Bill IREI goes further than House Bill three ninety five that we worked with a coalition of local Kentucky partners to have that bill withdrawn. This bill not only gives appointment authority to the Commissioner of Agriculture, it gives the entire It moves the entire Kentucky Department of Ficialwilivee Resources under the Department of Agriculture. And back in twenty twenty two, House Built three ninety five gave the Commission of Agriculture a rotating number of appointments to the fishal Live Commission, and the Governor and the Commissioner under that bill would share appointment authority. Under this bill, all nine commissioners would be appointed by the Commissioner of Agriculture. And as soon as it came out this time, we didn't have to ask for help. We didn't have to ask to build a coalition. The leadership of the Leaga of Kentucky Sportsmen were on the phone, the leadership of and I'm a full disclosure, I'm a member of the Kentucky and a Safari Club Legislative Affairs Committee who helps monitor these bills in addition to Kentucky Chapter BHA, and we were all on the phone, and then shockingly, Sportsmen's Alliance got on the phone, and then shockingly, Congressional Sportsman's Foundation got on the phone, and they were reaching out to us. Sportsman's Alliance reached out through the LEA Kentucky Sportsman, Congressional SPORTSMS Foundation reached out to Kentucky BHA. At the same time they reached out to the Legia Kentucky Sportsman and we were already building this very short, hopefully short lived coalition to kill this ugly bill because it's it's once again makes our department, which we are very fond of. 00:11:57 Speaker 4: We love our department. 00:11:58 Speaker 3: It's got some challenges like every fishing game agency, but we're very fond of it. We love it. We're friends with the biologists. We work our butts off to make it better, but we are just exhausted with it being a political pawn and moving it around. It's changed the face of our agency in the last few years. Because there's been seven of these bills. This is the worst and the fact that it is Senate Bill three means that it was not just the Senate priority. They've been working on it for months because there was, you know, hundreds of Senate bills that's an issue. The fact that they dropped it on the last legal day they could sponsor legislation means that they learn the lesson the legislators saw us kill House Bill three ninety five because they dropped that in twenty twenty two in January. So they dropped this one on February twenty eighth at the very last minute to give us only the month of March to try to beat it back. 00:12:56 Speaker 2: So, Mike, can you tell me? And I need to ask the stupid questions here, but why is this a bad thing? I mean, agriculture and hunting go hand in hand in a million different ways all over the country. Shouldn't agriculture kind of be a safety map for us here in Kentucky. 00:13:23 Speaker 4: So it's. 00:13:26 Speaker 3: Your conclusion now and your idea there, you know, on face value. Immediately, there's a lot of sportsmen in the state that are like, oh, that's not a bad deal. And if you follow you know, conservation and conservation funding like we do, and you look at things like the Farm Bill and you see at the federal level, the Farm Bill has twelve billion dollars in it for you know, hunter access and wildlife habitat in addition to the to the to the pure agriculture stuff. 00:13:58 Speaker 4: You can think that. 00:13:59 Speaker 3: Way, you can think that, oh, this might not be a bad deal, but you got to look a little deeper. So if you look at the North American Mala wildlife management, you get down to science based management. If you delve into agricultural science and wildlife and fishery science, they're quite often antithetical. Agriculture scientists will talk about the reduction and they don't want to do it in an unethical way. They just don't necessarily want to do it in a way that's congruent with wildlife science. But they want wildlife populations reduced to stop crop damage and to stop livestock damage. And if you look at things like Kentucky Farm Bureau, who they have great insurance for farms, I'm not throwing stones at them, but their doctrine in Kentucky says that deer, elk, bear, and turkey are pests. On their website, it literally says seek reductions in wildlife to stop crop damage and livestock loss and vehicle accidents. So there is a significant move away from our foundational doctrine of wildlife science and fishery science when you go to agriculture and the way I explain this to the average sportsman that calls me that has a hard time grasping it, I say it like this. My grandfather didn't have any deer turkey to hunt. My father barely did. I remember the day when my uncle brought a little forky four point in that he killed with his recurve, and everybody from like four farms around came to look at that little forky. It was like nineteen seventy nine, and we spent eighty or ninety years recovering our wildlife to the point now where we're really living in the good old days. It would only take the Commissioner of Agriculture to appoint a majority so he doesn't have to point all a point all nine commissioners Fish and Wildlife commissioners, not agriculture, fish and wildlife. He doesn't have to appoint all nine to be agricultural leaning, to be leaning in the direction of wildlife reduction. He only has to appoint a majority, which would be five. They could change our bag limits and extend our season dates. It wouldn't be one buck in three dose for your dear permit in Kentucky. It could be you know, two bucks and six dose. 00:16:30 Speaker 4: It couldn't. 00:16:30 Speaker 3: It wouldn't be two tom turkeys. It would be for Tom turkeys. And over a period of time, you could see a reduction in our and our game species where you know, you and me are in our rock and chairs cal and we're looking, you know, at the at the ground and telling our grandkids, I'm sorry, we should have put a stop to this, but we've had such dramatic reductions and our game species because of this agricultural influence that were back to where our fathers and grandfathers were in the sixties and the seventies. 00:17:05 Speaker 2: In the state of Kentucky. Certainly in your time. Are there some specific examples that we have to go on with the Agriculture Committee wanting these game reductions or showing the fact that on the agriculture side in the state of Kentucky, that wildlife is a significant problem for the bottom line of producers in the state. 00:17:36 Speaker 3: So they've influenced a couple of times. We've had a couple of bills that they've influenced over the years. Most recently they've worked through our current Fishing Game Commission to try to have like an early deer rifle season, like an antlerless season to reduce populations. And so Kentucky's organized in four zones. If you can visualize the state of Kentucky geographically, any county that's along the Ohio River from Cincinnati to Paduca is basically a Zone one county. Plenty of deer you can you can harvest an unlimited number of deer. You get one buck in three dos with your permit, but you can buy additional antlers permits and keep going until the day is done. And we encourage people to, you know, donate those to Kentucky hunters for the hungry once your freezers full. But the bottom line is is from Zone one, you go to the east and southeast, you go to Zone two. 00:18:32 Speaker 4: There, you know, are further restrictions. You go from. 00:18:36 Speaker 3: Zone two to three and three to four, and by the time you get to the Cumberland Plateau or the Appalachian Mountains, the deer it's not an unlimited season. And so in Zone one they have good argument. The agriculture community has a really good argument to reduce deer numbers, and I think our department has worked with them and that has been a really good deal. But to make a wholesale shift of a Fish and Wildlife agency to be under the Department of Agriculture, and then to have all the fish and Game or Fish and Wildlife commissioners appointed by the Commissioner of Agriculture, it's really a bad deal. And it's not just a bad deal for us in our opinion, we believe it's a bad deal for the Commissioner of Agriculture. That poor gentleman gets put in a trick bag. It's not always going to be a gentleman, but he's currently a gentleman. That poor gentleman gets put in a trick bag. If he appoints nine agricultural leaning commissioners, then the conservationists and sportsman in Kentucky you're going to be really upset with that part with the Commissioner. If he appoints you know, nine fish and wilife commissioners who don't agree with the reduction in wildlife, then the agricultural side is going to be upset with them. And the Commissioner of Agriculture here in the state is elected, so he's kind of damned if he does damned if he doesn't, because all of our conservation groups are you know, one percent again this because it's it's never been something that's worked. Every time leadership has tried to find compromise in wildlife productions to please the agriculture community in Kentucky Farm Bureau and the agribusiness people here in the state. It's never really worked out. There could be a compromise if we would be willing to talk about it, but this ain't it. 00:20:26 Speaker 2: And let's talk about that coalition there, Mike. It's not just BHA like you said that that's kind of waving this flag right now. Can you roll through that list that that coalition that's trying to strike this one down Centre Yes, sen thank you, Cale send it Bill three. 00:20:48 Speaker 3: So we're very happy that the lead of Kentucky Sportsman has really stepped up. That's our legacy conservation group in the state. The League exists to keep a watchful eye on Commissioners of Fish and Wildlife to make sure that they do what the constituents in the nine commission districts want, because you know, what goes on in the elk zone, which is in you know, our seventh, eighth, and ninth, ninth district, is different than what goes on in the zones where we have too many deer, which is generally the first, second, and third district. So those commissioners should be doing what the people in their in their districts want. And the League is our oldest organization and that's their job. They really are supposed to make sure that that's going down and that's working hard. And they have a lot of affiliated rod and gun clubs and conservation groups. So there are our oldest uh and in history historical terms, our strongest. They jumped on it right away, Kentucky and isa Fari Club. I know it's fire club and bh A don't always get along at the federal international level, but we have an outstanding relationship here in the Commonwealth. And at the exact same time that Kentuckya's far Club jumped on it, Kentucky back country hunters and anglers jumped on it, so the. 00:22:03 Speaker 4: Three biggest groups in the state. 00:22:06 Speaker 3: We've actually started talking to the state chapters of the Wild thirty Federation and the National Deer Alliance trying to, you know, work this a little harder. But the thing that made us really happy is we didn't have to reach out to Sportsman's Alliance and we didn't have to reach out to the Congressional Sportsmans Foundation, you know, the Congressional Sportsmans Foundations. Five state rep called me and said, hey, man, we don't have members, local members, grassroots members like you are. Members are the eighty nine senators and representatives that are in your legislature that have signed up to be on the Sportsman's Caucus within the legislature, and we are telling them no, not just no, no, And we want to send a letter. 00:22:48 Speaker 4: We want to put your logo on it. We want to put the lead of Kentucky Sportsman's logo on it. We want to put Kentucky and a Safari Club's logo on it. 00:22:55 Speaker 3: So the legislators also know that we have the local grassroots support. 00:23:00 Speaker 4: So that's where we're at today. 00:23:02 Speaker 2: That's great, Mike, And then big question is right like we can always say like, well, this is a problem, but who should be filling those commission seats? 00:23:15 Speaker 4: So are. 00:23:17 Speaker 3: Our law that outlines who fills the commission seats is pretty cut and dry. In the nine wildlife districts, Wildlife and Fisheries district we are Fishwife commission is made up of nine volunteer commissioners that are nominated by sportsmen. They're then appointed by the governor and should be confirmed by the Senate. 00:23:38 Speaker 4: That's the process at nomination meetings all over the state. 00:23:44 Speaker 3: If it is time to nominate a new Fish and Wildlife Commissioner, the sportsmen and women get together. The nominee must be have held a license for at least two years as a hunter or fisher, and we go ahead and nominate up to five sportsmen or women at that district meeting. If there's six, or seven or eight that throw their name in the hat, then we have a vote to reduce it back to five. Those five go to the Governor's office. The Governor's office does their vetting and goes through and picks their favorite of the nine. Of the five, so sportsmen and women we're able to nominate their five. The governor then picks their favorite of the five, appoints them to the Commission, and then that person will be able to sit on the Fishing Live Commission as soon as they are confirmed by the Senate. And that's how that goes down. The owner is part of this bill, though, cal and the reason we know it's really it's loaded with politics is if you go to the last page of a fifty six page bill, you go to the last page, it has an emergency clause on it. In Kentucky politics, in Kentucky law, if there's an emergency clause on a bill, once the governorsg incidental law, it is in effect immediately. What Senate Bill three even says after it talks about the transfer wholesale transfer of the Department of Fishwilife resources to be under the Department of Agriculture, after it gives the appointment authority of all future Fish and Wildlife Commission seats to the Commission of Agriculture, it says on the last page, once this bill becomes law, the current five appointees. We have five appointees right now that the governor's appointed. Those appointments become null and void the minute this bill is signed and the Commissioner of Agriculture will then be able to fill our five current vacancies. There's no emergency, there's no exigent circumstances. The governor's already appointed five folks that were nominated in their district, who were vetted as hunters and fishers, who need to represent the constituents in those five districts. All we need is to send it to firm them. And we have a full board of nine commissioners. Again, why would we need an emergency clause if there wasn't partisan politics involved in this? 00:26:08 Speaker 4: And I hate to say that there is, but there is that. 00:26:12 Speaker 3: That emergency clause and the fact that those current five appointees are made null and void and now the Commissioner of Agriculture gets to pick from the five district nomination lists points very specifically true North that partisan politics, and we're just done with department being a pawn in politics. We pay the bills, you know, in Kentucky we fish and wildlife hunting, fishing, trapping, licensing, with a little bit of voting licensing in there is fifty to fifty percent of the department's budget, our excise money that we get from Dingle Johnson and Pittman Robertson's about another thirty five to forty percent. But regardless, we pay the bills and we should, you know, our voice should be pre eminent. It's obviously not. And that's, you know, yet another reason why we're fighting. Uh, this this terrible bill boy. 00:27:03 Speaker 2: Yeah, that last page. Unfortunately it doesn't suggest a change in management. 00:27:13 Speaker 4: It suggests a takeover. Yeah, that's what we think. 00:27:19 Speaker 2: You can the listeners out there. I probably shouldn't have said that you can. You can chalk that up to an opinion piece observation in the moment, So I apologize there. But you're supposed to be making up your own minds and more importantly making phone calls and emails and Mike. Is there a way that uh, the sports woen and women of Kentucky can weigh in on this one? 00:27:42 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's there's quite a few, you know, different ways. Right now, Kentucky back Country Hunters and Anglers has our action alert up uh and you can find that all over for our social media. Uh so it's Kentucky Chapter BHA on both Facebook and Instagram. We're blessed that the Sportsman's Alliance also has a very similar action alert system. Up where if you click the button and fill in your information and you agree to fight this bill, it'll send an action alert from from from. 00:28:18 Speaker 4: Them as well. 00:28:20 Speaker 3: But you know that the thing that I think hits home the most is phone calls and are we have something in the in the state of Kentucky, and I don't know you know the way it works in any other uh, in any other state. But we have something called the Legislative Research Commission, and that's basically the people that run our legislature. And they have just a standard phone number. It's five zero two five six four eighty one hundred five h two five six four eighty one hundred, and if you call that number, you'll get a very nice person, uh. And then you just tell them, Hey, we'd like to talk to the gentleman that sponsored this bill. Who is Senator Jason Howell, like Thurston Howe, the third from Gilligan's Island. 00:29:05 Speaker 4: Senator Jason Howell H O W E L L. 00:29:10 Speaker 3: And he's a really good dude. He's an early in his career senator. This is only his third session. Which is another indicator in Kentucky politics that if it's a very important Senate bill that has a very low number, but yet they have a freshman, sophomore or a junior senator carrying it as the prime sponsor that they're doing it for somebody else. And we don't want to throw stones at Senator how What we said in the past with our coalition is please ask us in front, tell us what the problem is that you see politically with the management of our department, the department we love so much, and let us help you craft a bill and let us be the champion of your good bill instead of this fight that we have at the end. But you can call that number. Anybody in the state can, and phone calls make a greater impact. Then please we'll do the action alert. Please still send the emails, but if you call five two, five six four eighty one hundred eight one zero zero, you just asked the operator I would please like to speak to Senator Jason Howe. Now they're in session, so you're probably going to get a staffer or a voicemail, and you know you can tell them, hey, please just withdra all Senate Bill three and we'll work on a better bill with you next year. Please don't be rude or evil. You know these people serve as well. They take an oath to support and defend the same as a soldier, sailor airmin a marine, and we need to thank them. 00:30:33 Speaker 4: For their service. 00:30:34 Speaker 3: But we got to stop having our department being a political pawn. And the only way to do that is to speak up. And the easiest and best way is to make that phone call. And it wouldn't hurt to call your senator a representative do the same thing. Say I want to talk to senator how then call them right back and ask to talk to your representative or your senator. 00:30:54 Speaker 2: That's fantastic, Mike. Like we say often and all the way right now on this podcast, making changes at the legislative level is just not the way to go. As the Kernel here has implied, making sweeping statewide changes in wildlife is. 00:31:19 Speaker 4: Just not effective. 00:31:20 Speaker 2: If wild drive life reductions are necessary in certain areas, those can be simple regulation changes within even regions within a county versus going statewide. So and your Fish and Game Commission and state agency is more than capable of tackling those issues because they have the science and the background to do it. So, Mike, thank you so much for being available and letting us know about this situation in Kentucky Senate Bill three. We'll get some information up on the website as well. If there's additional questions comment, please write in to ask C A L. That's Ascal at the meeteater dot com and we'll get back to you. Jordan, you got. 00:32:09 Speaker 6: Anything, We'll post all the information that that Mike said at the metater dot com slash cow. So if you're driving and didn't get a chance to jot any of that down, that'll be on the website too. 00:32:21 Speaker 2: The heck yes, all right, everybody, thanks a bunch. Keep your ears peeled and your eyeballs strained, because if this situation in Kentucky makes you concerned, I guarantee it's going on in a state that you probably hunt in or fish in. Uh if it's not going on in your home state, so uh, listen up, stay engaged,