00:00:06 Speaker 1: Ice fishermen are free at for nine months of the year. They're free. It's called open water. I'd say at least half the stuff I'm making it's just going to people decorating cabins or lake houses and things like that. He recently said that cutthroat were the prettiest and everybody was like, you need to catch a native brook trout, my friend, get out of here with that noise. Go find a shed mark Kenyon, Joe, you sweet summer child. Good morning to Generate anglers, and welcome to Bent, the fishing podcast that's getting its side hustle on selling mouse pads featuring sunrise and sunset photos we took on our skunk days. I'm Joe Surmelli, I know that feeling man, and I'm made in Samac and I'm here to tell you that these are these are exceptional mouse pads. And you know, kidding Aside is a former hawker of my creative wares. Like three dollar mouse pad is one thing, but if you're selling something expensive, right, there is nothing more just blood boiling than when an influencer is like, hey, you know that stuff that you worked like real hard on and it's like really like valuable in that way. Yeah, if you give me that for free, I'll shout you out to my four followers on Instagram. I hate that. Yeah, yeah, and that that does happen a lot, right. And look, that's not to say that we don't absolutely love it when we get something sent by a listener like we that, um, but to actively solicit that sort of thing, um, it's just kind of lame. And that's that's another way of saying. For the record, just so you guys know, Um, if you ever see me or Hayden posts something from a listener that somebody made, we did not ask for it, you know what I mean, Like, it's cool. We have some cool people out there who are like, yeah, I make this. I'd love you guys to check this out. And if it's something that we can use and it's cool, we're We're always happy to do that and we will shout you out, but we certainly don't uh seek, you know, makers out and and ask for this stuff. Yeah, can I have that sweet decoy. We'll get to that later. Man. I own bottom. But that said, I can tell you truth from the bottom of my heart. Throughout my entire career, I have always tried to use my platforms whatever I had going on, whether it was you know, in a magazine story or gear round up or podcast or whatever, to give exposure to the little guys when I could and when appropriate, um, you know to. I have such a soft spot for for for people making really good, unique stuff and garages and basements and small operations all over out there. I love that stuff. Yeah, yeah, I think we both like share that similar outlook on the bespoke if you will, bespoke be spoke whatever. Uh And and as much as like I would like to buy all your cool plugs, rods, flies and whatever else you make, uh, are seemingly limitless outdoor podcast host money only goes so far. And Joe, I think you see exactly where I'm going with this. Yeah, you're going to Wendy's tonight because that's what you can afford. Uh. No, I to see where you're going, and I only elk liver bro. I think what you're getting at is we love our fishing, right, because you got to talk about I mean we do, we do that, that is true, right, we love responses in thirteen fishing. But that's not where I'm going with no, no, no, I'm just kidding. We're going to shout them out a little later, as we always do, but the folks we want to shout out right now, are you guys listening, specifically those of you that have combined your creativity and skill with a love of fishing and have found a way to make a business out of it. That is correct. After a hugely positive response to our like should we shouldn't we question last week, we are starting a new segment called Makers, where we highlight the folks that you know make Now, to be clear, we're not talking about showcasing a cool fly you tied or a picture you painted, although we are very very proud of you. This Maker segment is really meant to, uh, to highlight folks who do it at least semi professionally, so like you know professional y, yeah exactly, Like maybe it's your main gig, but I I certainly know a lot of people who are teachers during the day and make some badass rods or whatever at night. So that's that's who we're talking about, um, And we thought it would just be a great way to help bring you guys up and get your names out there. And there are so many people deserving of just a little bit of highlighting here. Um, But as promised, let's highlight what's up with thirteen fishing because that's how the podcast gets made around here. Yes, indeed, we recently just did a staff ice fishing day out here a meat eater, and there were thirteen fishing rods as far as the eye could see, there were fifteen thirteen fishing rods. To be specific, they sent us what was it? It was the It was little Kalon reels on. I think the widow Maker rods. I can't I can't remember exactly which one they were, but everybody looked cool as hell with them. And I am in love with those Kalon reels, man, They're so smooth. And to be honest with you, I'm just about over ice here, and and you know, I'm ready to use the Kalon reels on on the open water. And I'm also ready to talk spring and summer with you. Joe man, what are you? What are you looking forward to using? The most? Uh? Shad Well? I got first of all, I got Chad on the brain. That is always the first significant thing that like really kicks off a fishing season here for me. Um, and I had a chance to use thirteen ft Steelhead rods for Chad last season. Um and they they are perfect for both casting really tiny darts or backtrolling. And you know, Chad have a lot of similarities to Steelhead, particularly that they they change direction very quickly, so those long whippy rods, and that that ability to sort of absorb those those turns. Steelhead rods traditionally have made great UM Chad rods, but the feet steel head are particularly good. But yes, it is warming up here. I'd say three weeks we'll start hearing reports of the first shot around here and I'll be out there. I have a full disclosure. I have never caught one on my first try of the year because it's generally too early. I'm just so itchy to go. You know. You hear like, oh they were too caught down here, and you're like, I'm going, I'm going right now. But it usually takes a week or two. But maybe that trend will be bucked this season. Maybe first time out, I'll get it done. Yeah, I'll tell you what, man, um. I let's see what number one. I used to do with the same thing with salmon all the time, Like you here about one and You're like, it's on No, it's not, dude. I would just I would just start going up at the end of August, man, just you know, to hang out and start getting my uh my sea legs under me or my salmon river legs as it. Where the other thing, man is. I think I'm gonna be on the East coast a little bit towards the end of April May. Oh well, and can still be in there. I know when you see them up high, there's plenty to do if there if there's not. But the last few seasons, surprisingly, man, I've had great shad fishing almost up to Memorial Day. So late late late May starts to get a little but like there's other stuff to do. Late April, that's like primo. Can't be late April. My girlfriend and I are planning in a Turkey hunt East Coast tours, so you know I might have to uh make a little detour um anyhow, Uh well, look, hey, I hope the early season Chad works out for you, and I love everything thirteammates. But I happen to know something that they don't make spearing decoys. That is a niche market right there. Niche indeed, mostly by mostly by local craftsmen. Yeah, we all see where you're going here, so just go ahead and get there already. Let's do it alright, folks. Today, in our first ever installment of our Makers series, we're talking to a friend of Bent, Ryan Ebert, to hear about his obsession with spearing through the ice and the decoys he makes to do it. Today we're doing our tool time salute was a real classic handmade that's a good looking rod. Yeah, well this is handmade quality ship we're talking here, all right. So joining us today on the Bent podcast is is my Instagram buddy and decoy carver extraordinaire, Wisconsin's favorite son, Ryan Ebert, now Joe. Before my tenure here on Bent, you and the beloved Mr Nolty mentioned Ryan on the podcast because he sent you a decoy and he say he sent me the greatest deco I've ever gotten. It's they're unbelievable. They unbelievable, and that's why his guest number one, have you gotten your Pikelope? Yet? I have not gotten a pike because Ryan still trying to decide if you're as cool as me and mine? Well, uh, since but since that faithful day. I've been a big fan of his, and while I do not have a pike lobe Joe, I do have a cut throat and I do have another like working decoy on the way. My my girlfriend called her first perch through the ice and it was like a big one. So in order to commemorate that, I solicited Mr Ebert for a for a replica perch. Um I have said to Ryan, Have I not said that you could actually just carve fish like in lieu of taxidermy. You're good enough to do that, I think where that could be another avenue for you, Like we have to explain that like these are not like the like gift shop decoys, Like your level of detail borders on taxidermy. I appreciate that. I don't know, I an artist's eyes as worst critic, so I'm not I don't know if I'm quite at that level, but I get that. But I'm telling you they're good. I dude, I sold my pike a little for two grand on I think I got a commission coming. In addition, in addition to his to his decoys, uh, Ryan also does um like like a peril and in fact, I own like five of his t shirts or I I used to own five of his T shirts. Realistically, I'm allowed to hang on to one and my girlfriend, Uh, she's stolen the other four. Actually, dude, this is a total coincidence. No, it's not. He's rolling up a shirt. You got to cut some meat shirt on? Yeah, the Pike. Yeah, yeah, I swear, I swear I did not do that on purpose because we scheduled this very last minute. Anyhow, I've been a big fan of his. We have folks at the office who are a big fan of his. Uh, Seth and Chester demanded that I get them both Pike Spearing hoodies. Anyway, dude makes a nice shirt. But that's not really what he's here to talk with us about. Joe, what you want to You want to talk more about the decoys? I do. Yeah, So this is our this is our first Makers segment, which, by the way, if Maker's Mark is listening, is that not perfect? If Maker's Mark Whiskey would sponsor the Makers segment here on ben Um. But yeah, it only seemed right to kick this off with you, Ryan, because we we've just you know again, we have some decoys. We've been following each other on the instagrams, and I think decoys are are very interesting, right because fair to say, um that while they certainly have function, because there's a whole culture people out there that actually use them for spearing. They're one of the weird things that you can make in the fishing realm that also has a whole other life as sort of collectible. Right. And also there are people who just make, like make these things that are never meant to get used unlike yours, that are just like gift shop kitch. So you know, I'm curious to talk about, like what what really separates one from the other, what makes it? Is there something that makes a decoy more functional, uh and ready for the hard water than a lot of these things you just see people pump out to put at the at the gift shop. Yeah, everything that goes into it, I mean makes it more functional, from the swim, the type of wood, making sure it's properly sealed. Obviously, the price level kind of determines if a guy's putting it down in the water or putting it on the shelf. Um, I'd say at least half the stuff I'm making, it's just going to collectors or people decorating cabins or lake houses and things like that. Really half of what you make, you think it is at least? Yeah, I mean I I do see a slight sim like there's one similarity, they're not quite the same. We see that a lot in striper lures the guys turning that stuff out here. Not so much for decore, but I would say, if not more in some cases are bought to hold onto like they're never going to see water. So, I mean, obviously it doesn't bother you, is the wrong word, because you're you're making money, but I assume you would prefer to see your decoys actually used on the ice. Yeah, I mean, every single decoy make even if I know it's like ultra decorative and probably never going to see the water, I'm still making it the same way. I'm using using cedar, I'm stealing it and prim in it and uh using spar you earth thing to clear coat it and making it to swim. Even though I know it's probably not going to go in the water, I'm still doing the same process regardless. Well, contributing to that statistic of the Ryan Ebert decoys that I own or am soon to own, R R and D Decorative that cut I had to make a cutthroat decoy. That's just like wonderful and that that uh that's it's proudly on my on my mantle before and I'm not knocking that. I just want to make sure, like, yeah, like they are art right. I'm not saying like it's weird to have one for decoration. My pikeolobe is decoration. But I before we go on, though, I do think we should explain just in case you're not familiar with with with pike spearing decoys, Ryan, just give us the quick version of what these things actually do. Why do you need this? So? Yeah, here in Wisconsin are big thing is surgeon spiring because we don't really have pike spearing um here, but Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota, a whole bunch of ice belt states all have pike spearing. Uh So in the winter months, go out, take a dark house, whether it's a permanent shack or pop up shack. You cut a big ass hole in the ice, usually three ft by four ft um and then the decoy is your primary attractant for pike. You know, they're just as you guys know, they're just ultra aggressive predators. Um So, you're they're generally coming in and either I n it up or they're smacking that decoy and biting, chopping down on it, and then you're sitting above with a spear and and uh, yeah, that's how you get them. One question that I have is how did you get into making decoys? Like what was the genesis of ryany Bert decoit production? Here? So about fifteen years ago I got into pike spering through a good buddy I went to college with Um. We both went for graphic design, so that's where the kind of the peril design comes in. His dad was a warden up in Maynett County, Wisconsin, and he was really big into pike spearing and carbon decoys and went up and Um, the very first outing, we didn't even see a pike or didn't have any luck. Um, but I was just hooked. You know, it's so different. It's it's it's more like probably bowl hunting than it is fishing. Like you're picking a spot. I mean you're not bouncing around like with tip ups or anything. You're not covering a big part of lake. You're it's like duck hunting out of chimney. I mean, you've got one little area, one little area that you're watching and you're hoping they come in, and you're just waiting and and it can be boring for hours on end, but then all of a sudden, that five seconds of monster pike or any fish coming through, you know, it gets the heart pumping and and there's no guarantee a connecting either. It's it's not as easy as some guys think. You know, you're not just slaying them. So in a similarity to lures, right to lure making, like, what's in basic terms, what separates in your opinion, um and okay, decoy from a great decoy, Because you know, there's to use swim baits as an example, there's five swim baits, there's three dollars swim baits. They're all in one classification of doing the same thing. And you know, like there are people who will argue me in some cases with predator fish that if he's hungry and interested, like he's gonna eat the five dollars swim bait or he's gonna eat the five swim bait. But yet I still recognize that that in terms of action and what they do, they're obviously nuances. So what what in your opinion, should a decoy do to make it more potent or more attractive than a lesser decoy? What's the difference? The primary thing to swim? Um, it should should move forward in the water and make a nice slow circle. Uh. There are actually contests and classes and um shows that are have contests just for that and how the decoy swims in waters will swimming in a six foot tank and judge it all upon that. Um. From a collector's standpoint, it's all about the name. Um. So certain carvers, you know, develop a name or a following, and then that really ups the value of those decoys. Yeah. We did a news story a while ago that somebody unearthed the collection that they had authenticated it. I mean they were selling it South of Bees or something like that. I mean crazy amounts of money for some of the really old, unique stuff, right, Yeah. I think that was a Peterson decoy if I remember it correctly. Yeah, something like that. Carvers that have passed on, and you know, though that's a limited supply, decoys are not obviously anymore being added out there, and they get pretty valuable. So if you go into a tackle shop in Wisconsin or wherever, spearing happens. Are there also sort of stock mass produced decoys that you would just find next to everything else on the shelves in there. Uh, there's some, I mean yeah, there's some commercial manufacturers here again here in Wisconsin. Enough Pike experience, so you gotta pretty much go up to Lake Winnebago and go to any bars or gas stations around there, and you'll see him hanan and there, especially this time of year with the season just wrapped up yesterday, so you'll you'll see guys that make them all around the lake. And for sturgeon sparing, they don't care as much about the swim, they're just doing. It's generally larger, brighter, colorful decoysw I know, um, I know that a lot of these decoys, you know, typically run like, you know, fifty two hundred and fifty bucks. You know, if if you're worker, decoy is like that range. Yeah right, Um, I do know an extremely effective decoy that you can buy fors and it comes with it comes full of coffee. I sent um what Yeah, I sent Chester Floyd Sturgeon spearing with a friend of yours, John Murtz, John, Yeah, yeah, um he I sent Chester up with a John Murtz decoy and he wanted to use it, but the hot thing on the lake happened to be styrofoam coffee cups styrofhone, it's probably ceramic, Yeah, like a regular coffee mug. Yeah, surgeon guys will throw anything down from disco balls, the barbie cars. I watched the dude put two duck decoy or I think they're kes decoys like back to back wrapped around. I mean, they'll just throw anything. A surgeon are a big curious dinosaurs, so you're just trying to throw stuff at them that they haven't seen before. So they're not always swimming traditional decoys on big that's fascinating. But the but the pike, because it's more of a predatory response. You want those decoys to swim in a very particular way, and you want them to be representative of something a pike might have, I don't know, like a pretty tory reaction to. Yeah. Yeah, generally you want them to swim better. But even though if you you want to mix it swim styles ones that are fast or slow, it makes something that are called like wiggle decoys that are finless and they kind of act like they're dying. They the islets on the bottom of the belly, so when you dig it, it it kind of does like a belly flip like a yeah, kind of like a big old like flutterspoon. Yeah yeah, yeah, especially on a slower day, you're just kind of throwing different stuff at him until you see what really gets them going. So perhaps a dumb question, right, because I certainly do understand the culture behind this fact dumb questions on the Bent podcast. H I I've always wanted to try pike spearing, right, I've I've never gotten a chance to do that. You guys got to open Yeah I should. Yeah, well I've been I've been wanting to do that for a while. But anyway, does anybody ever I don't know, use like a live sucker is a decoy with a couple of treble hooks in it, or maybe put some treble hooks on their decoy just in case. Every state has different obviously regulations. Um, so you can put what's called yeah cheater hook on a traditional decoy. Um. And there are guys, especially in Minnesota, they like to run a live sucker and usually a regular decoy. They'll run two down. Um. Yeah, again, anything just to see what's getting them go in that particular day. For Sturgeon spiring, you can't run anything with a hook and I don't think you can use live bait at all. Right, right, right, right, Well we have we have a couple of questions. I think we're we're aiming to sort of do this for all of our our makers segments because I think they I think they work. Um. But the first one would be who was your inspiration? Like, who did you learn from? Who was the biggest inspiration for your work? Yeah? S my buddies Dad that got me into it. Um, he's a retired warden. Now he definitely got me into the whole Pike sperience and I picked his brain starting out, you know, on making decoys and Um, Like I said, there's shows that I go to and I've met other carvers and just you know, gotten tips from everybody, and everybody's got such unique styles. And is there a particular carver that you go I would like to maybe not make something identical to that, but I'm I'm using this dude's process more than others as a particular influence, not any particular one. There's definitely parts of my process that I can credit to different guys that have told me how to cut fins better or do like the guilt details better. Um. Yeah, so it's more of a technical influence and an artistic influence. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I definitely don't try to copy anybody's style or if they do a particular thing that they're known for, I wouldn't. You're not the bass pro shops of the carving world as yourself, right. Next question that we have for you, man, is, have you ever in your pursuit of pike decoy perfection have you ever like done an experiment it was just a total and complete, disastrous like failure, like something that, except in this context, you wouldn't want anybody to know about share that with people. Real quick utter failures. No, but I've had stuff that's really just made me pull my hair out. When I make the full size pike lope, man, those antlers really mess up my whole waiting process and getting it to swim. And I'll spend hours hours on one decoy on one full size pike getting it to swim paddlefish is the same thing because they got that real lawn, you know, nose on them, So that really makes the balancing of it super tricky. So but you've just brought up something interesting. So even if if I'm commissioning you to to make a decoy, that's going to be purely for decoration purposes, and you know that you are still making sure that thing swims if I wanted it to, absolutely, because if it doesn't swim, if I'm not making it correctly, it's not a fish decoy. That's what separates. That's what that that's what That's what levels you up right there is even if it's a decoration, it would perform if you needed it too. And I've done some like fish plaques, you know, putting mountain on wood, so that's purely decoration and and uh yeah that's a totally different thing. But yeah, if it's a fish decoy, I'm making it to swim. Like said, my whole process is the same either way, even if I know it's just going on a shelf. You hear that, folks, man, When you're buying a Brian Ebert decoy, you're not only getting an artistic representation, You're you're getting dedication to craft. And well, anyway, well thank you so much for like coming and talking to his man do you want to you want to tell our listeners where they can find you, you know, on social media, and then if they would like to buy something from you, where they might find you as well. Yeah, primarily my Instagram is where I'm sharing all my fish decoys and spear and apparel. So that's Ryany Art at Sea is what I saw most of my stuff through, which is also Ryany birt art Um also the on the board of directors for the nat No Fist Decoys Association, and we have a show in per Minnesota that's April twenties second, I think that weekend, So if guys want to meet me in person, you can come to that show and I'll have lots of decoys there. Pretty much every then I'm making right now, I'm kind of holding and setting aside for that show, So there's not much on my let's shop available right now. Right on Man, Well, we kicked it off with ice decoys. The possibilities are endless. Hayden loremakers, rod makers. Who will be next on Makers? Well, I'll tell you what. If you think that you are the next maker, what you make, we will assess it and then decide No. No email email us at bent at the meat Eater dot Com with with a little bit of paragraph about you and uh in an example of your art and uh hopefully you get to be uh you get to be on the show soon. What do you think Joe is had an appropriate plug there? Very appropriate? All right, thanks Ryan? Yeah, thanks for having me. Dude so cool. I love Yeah, Ryan stuff is truly outstanding. Um, you should all check him out if you haven't already. And while the ice is dwindling, I would say in my region, I know a lot of you still have good ice. Uh, and maybe you're not into spearing, but just hate the fact that you know, ice fishing just allows you to kind of drop a baitter jigs straight down. Yeah, I cannot stand that. It is just horrible. I just feel like, man, if this water we're just open, I could cast anywhere I wanted to know. Well, trolling thing, Man, don't ruin it. Don't ruin it. Because we've got a sail bin item today. Um, they can help you out if you just hate the fact that ice fishing is kind of a straight up and down thing. And this should be fun because I already know Hayden and I have different opinions about this item. Why did you put the hand pa, You don't know what I'm getting. Man, You didn't have to be so with me so angry. This Saleman entry comes to us from listener Isaac Linz, and it's a it's a weird one, um, because he said he saw this on Facebook marketplace, but he didn't supply a link to the item. And I went on Facebook Marketplace and searched, and I looked for it myself and I couldn't find it. But what Isaac told us was that after seeing it for sale somewhere out there on the uh inner webs, he he ended up wanting to dig deeper, and he he looked this product up and he found it on YouTube to videos uh. And that's what he sent was these two links to these videos. And the product is called the bait Transporter. Yeah. And now before we start picking this apart, let's just like describe this item in the simplest term. The bait transporter is it's like a flat wooden like kind of like planer board almost with like a point at one end, and below it is a motor and dangling from that is a downward your release clip. Fifty ft of court are connected to the motor, and what you do is you attach your fishing line to the release clip, slid the bait transporter under the ice, powered up, and off a goes carrying whatever lure or a bait you've connected fifty ft from the hole you drilled, and once it gets the end of the court, it turns and will continuously run in a fifty ft circle around your hole. Right now, neither of these videos made it clear to me, at least if the idea is to take a bait out right and then you snap the line out of the release clip and your bait falls, or you you effectively troll a spoon or a crank bait whatever under the ice. That's how they're showing it in action. They show this thing pulling a spoon behind it. My guess is that it will do both, but I have issues with both of those objectives separately, which which we'll get into. And just a little bit here. So now that we are we have a full understanding of what this product is, let's discuss who's selling it. His name is Ed Smith. I'm out here on Lake Superior today, beautiful day, or just off a little rainbow stream, and I have this new sport fishing device, and I'm gonna be using today something I invented. It's called a bait transporter. In case you're wondering, Yes, all the music and Ed's videos sounds like what was playing when the baby whale is finally born in Blue Planet is I'm pretty sure it's also like the stock of music that they My brother has a drone and he makes these drone videos, and I think that's the same stock music that they given to make the videos with. Very strange anyhow, it seems like a good salt of the earth dude. But he is also the kind of guy and I think we all know or no one that's like a basement tinkerer. Yes, Ed is a a mad scientists an engineer of sorts. But whereas some folks spend lots of money prototyping, it looks like Ed build his prototype or whatever he already had laying around the garage. It's like some prototypes I developed in high school. Yeah. So the name, even the name bait transporter is crudely burned into the wood plank, but it tapers at the end. It's like he ran out of room, Like you know, when you're writing some long ship and you're like, uh, I don't have enough room for the E and the R so like bait transporter or shrinks away and like it's there's there's barely enough room on there. Now underneath the motor that that moves this device that provides the thrust, it's just a small fish tank water pump, right, So basically it's got like a little jet drive going on. And the cord is fifty ft of that thick clear cord where you can see all the copper wiring inside. And then every few feet Ed put foam bobbers on the cord, strung bobbers on the cord to ensure that the cord would float underneath the ice instead of sinking way. And all of this glory uh and power is UH is run by a car battery that he has out on the ice with him. Yes. And now now, so like the case that End makes in his video is that despite all the electronics available these modern days, modernized fishermen still fish like caveman, meaning like they can only drop a lure in like a one ft area I guess on like the lake. So I'll let Ed explain what that means. This is a picture I drew of the very first ice fishure. Yep, he's a cave man over here. I have a picture of today's fishermen. He's got a camp and he's got a four wheel drive truck and a trailer and ice huts with televisions and stereos. There's he's got ice tents. He's got fish finders and underwater televisions. He's got snow machines. Have you luck here? Don't know what set he is doing the same thing as this guy over here. So that means since the beginning of time, ice fishing has never changed. So if you watch this video, he actually draws a caveman fishing and then compares it to another drawing of modern ice fishing, and and they're like something my kids would have. It's a very potent piece. It's very funny. It's very funny. Now Ed claims that with his device right, you can fish anywhere within seven thousand square feet of the whole and his tagline sort of like sort of his his tagline is that this device sets ice fishermen free. Now listen, Ed, I do appreciate the thought process and the work that went into this, and I'm not saying that there's no ingenuity. It right, it does steer itself in the circle and all that. I mean, there was some thought put into this, but my gut reaction to the idea of this, this freeing of the ice fisherman, even before I get into the logistics, are that ice fishermen are free ad for nine months of the year. They're free it's called open water. Um. I see what he's trying to do here. But isn't part of the skill and and fun um of ice fishing about being able to you know, first off, go wherever you want on the lake on foot, not needing a boat, and then you know, finding the perfect spot to drill a hole and you're hoping that you're you're you're sitting right on top of the fish. Like that's just kind of what ice fishing is to me. So this this kind of changes the game. And I don't know if it's positively, but you ice fish more than I do. So I want to hear your thoughts. Yeah, Joe, you sweet summer child man. I think it's okay. So is Ed's invention a little hokey? Sure, you know, um, but there are things that I like about it, and some of the things that I like about it would be what you might consider a critique of it, except you gotta think about it the right way. So that copper line is like really good because my initial thought was like, well, why don't you just take like a remote control like I'm sure they have some remote control submarine or like you know whatever, and just like you know, zip it around underneath the ice with like a crank bait attached to it. And then I realized that, um, steering it back to the whole blindly would be really difficult, So like plus one for the giant copper core to My next critique was, man, isn't that like a lot of like a car battery. Isn't that like a lot of stuff to like bring out? And then I thought about it for three seconds. I was like, Bro, you camp on the ice all the damn time. The amount of crap that you bring out there with you, like you wouldn't even notice the car battery, So I like that. Um, or it's not that I like that, it's just like it's a non issue. It's a moot point. Um. My other kind of critique is this is basically the ice fishing like equivalent, or I guess the terminal tackle equivalent of like side scanner compared to your like drop down the whole transducer. You know what I mean, Like you're you're basically uh as a side scanner amplifies your visible area or radar area. The uh what the what the hell does he call this thing bait transporter? Yeah, the bait transporter increases your your your fishable area in a very similar way. Now here are my like here are some actual critiques that I have over like number one, head godly, man, make the thing look better, Just put put some more time into like presentation. Man, it's fine, just spray paint the whole thing and just start over with a nice graphic. Man, that'll that'll get you so much further immediately. Next thing I have like a problem with is uh, I'm not sure how fish would react to this underwater from the standpoint that everything is like kind of lethargic. I don't know exactly how fast this goes, but I wonder how effective, like in a a type of fishing that demands such a subtle presentation, how effective that like trolling at whatever speed might be? So um wait wait wait if ed Wards show up and give you this would you run out of the ice and give her a goal. Would you use this product? Would I use this product? Well, if somebody, out of the kindness of their hearts is going to send me a bait transporter, I would indeed give it a shot. Would I bring it every time? No? But one thing that I immediately kind of thought of was it might be kind of effect to define like cocone e, because they're like attracted to like big shiny, like fluttering things. And I thought that you might have some utility there. Um, okay, Like, do I want to go fish with it? No? Not really, man, I will, I will be honest with you, not really, But mark my words, I'm gonna call it now. In ten years, inside of ten years, there will be a product very similar to Ed's bait transporter, and it will be widely used by by ice fishermen. And I think that it will be widely used in combination with the side scan sonar. So there you go. Those are my thoughts on it. Yeah, all right, So let me crack my neck and crack my knuckles before I begin here. So oh god, wait, that's no fair, man. I didn't know you were gonna make me do it all at once, and then you were gonna like roll overbuttle at me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I was doing. I wanted to hear your I wanted to hear your thoughts first. It is not in the notes that that is how this was gonna work. Account. I thought I was just offering my thoughts and like, well, you got you ice fish more than I do. So I'm I'm gonna bring up some practical things. Great man walk walk me into a blind um. All right, So for starters, right, the bait transporter has a go pro attachment on it facing backwards, which tells me that the intention is to troll with it, because why would you need to go pro if you're not expecting a fish to eat behind it. The first thing that came to mind for me was the sound. This has got to be making all kinds of sound underwater and you're dragging this court around. Is that attractive to fish? But more so unless you're targeting like you brought up cocony or or even trout. But if it turns out to be like pelagic fishing boats where like some of them are tuned in frequencies that like the fish end up liking, and some of them are just like dead. So you have these like bait. I'm not saying it will never work, but what sounds really good. Well, what I'm saying is if you think about depth. So if you're gonna pull a spoon or or jig or crank bit or whatever, well that's great if the fish are trying to target or swimming one to three feet under the ice. As soon as you increase the depth of the loure, like, the deeper you try to send it, the less action it's going to have with that thing moving in a wide circle, like even though that's moving around. The deeper you go, the less that's going to translate to to the action that the lure is supposed to have. So I don't really fully understand. Would be like if you were to side scan, right, And a lot of this argument contingent is contingent on you having a side scan, But it would be interesting to like drive around, get it over where you think the fish are, and then just like dead stick it. Well, okay, I thought of that too. So let's say you legitimately use this thing the place a bait or something, and you keep consistently getting bit at the eleven o'clock hour on your turn fifty ft away from your hole, Think you wouldn't just go drill a hole over there instead of dealing with wires and cables and stuff. I mean, that could be a good That could be a good way to find it, because I'll tell you what, in the time that it would take you to drill like those sixty holes to encompass like a fifty ft sixty or sixty degree radius, you can just do that in one turn with the handy bait transporter. Okay, now here's another. Here's another thing. Let's say let's say the bait transporter does its job and like a twenty pound pike comes over and grabs whatever you're pulling. You're gonna fight that fish through a tiny hole with a tiny rod while you're also dealing with fifty feet of cable and a moving object in the same hole. Like, dude, how often have you gotten tangled just in your transducer that's bobbing right there? So I don't see how that doesn't equate two mad tangles. Dude. Here here's my argument there, man um. I would say that like the one wire that is going down the hole in immediately bank in ninety degrees is less in the way than my like heavy transduce, sir, that's like hanging down three ft below like what I'm fishing. Okay. And my last thing was if you're going to use this for bait delivery, like to drop a dead bait further away from you or something, it doesn't move particularly fast. So are you really is it really more efficient to keep pulling this thing in by hand dragging all the cord in, setting the release clips, sending it back out and it goes along real slow? Like is that more efficient than just drilling more holes in the area to find the fish? To me, I think if it was just I think if it was just going out and doing one I would agree with you. I'd be like, yeah, you gotta send this thing onto it goes out fifty yards you know, or fifty ft or whatever it is. But because it's like running that circle, I would say that, yeah, that is more efficient. I would say definitely takes less time. Well, the only thing I will say I I don't agree that this is gonna be the next big thing, right, And it's not going to be like side scan because side scan lets you see to the side, which would allow you to move your whole base just on what's on your screen from side scan. But I do think if there was something here, like you know, we got to get to the to the you know, to the Tesla, and Edge just built the Ford model A you know what I mean, like years and years and years down the line. Maybe there's something here that you know, acts like a I don't know, a drone that goes one way and then just automatically comes home. I don't know, but I think to make that technology really efficient, um, it would be a really expensive item. And I don't think your average ice fisherman is gonna go for that. I think he's gonna go out hand oger his holes, jig up his perch, drinks some beers, and go home. I don't I don't see it, but I could be wrong. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Man. Well, the president for ice fishing being expensive has already been set. You know, our buddy Jay Semans out there with those snow bear things dropping down like the six thousand dollar side scan total set up. But that's not the average person, dude, that's not your average guy. And for something to make it, I think the market has to be affordable and a lot of people have to want it, right, Like, that's not well, you know you know who else is? Uh? Is not the average guy? Our buddy Ed. Well, now Ed's getting after it. I I give a lot of credit to Ed. It's it's not it's not Ed, but you know he's He's created something here that I've I felt was worth debate. Also, um, we know of it because of Isaac. So Isaac, thank you so much for sending this. Yes, this was a really fun one. We'll put a clip of this product in our Instagram stories today so you guys can check it out. And if you find something fish or fishing related on your favorite online classified, that's just ridiculous. Uh, please keep sending those links. Send that link to Bent at the meat eater dot com. Do please write in or hit us up and let us know what you think of the bait Transporter. I'd really cure you say if you guys think it's a great idea or not. Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from this guy, but come on, it's it's a lot going on. It's a lot happening. I think you're going to hear that it's genius. Also, if you'd like to hear what a winning news report sounds like, stay tuned. Is I crushed Joe in this week's installment of fish News Fish News that escalated quickly, Hey, real quick, just because I forgot to mention it last week. As trout season openers approach, Uh, some of you guys that have procreated and produced smaller versions of yourself may be interested in a in a piece I recently published on the meat Eater site about taking your little people trout fishing and uh, how to help craft them into better trout anglers. Specifically, it was actually a very fun one to write. So that's on the meat Eater side. If if that does something for you, Yeah, I feel like a meat either. We've been putting out a lot of like, uh, the child related content, you know what I'm there's a whole book. Steve's got a whole book coming out so very much so lately. Um, and it's it's a very fun thing to write about if you have the kids. Anyway, last week we mentioned that we'd kick off a little thing uh in news here called Conservation Minutes at the front of news each week as a recap we're doing that just because you know, we have limited time here every every week with the news um and it's hard to cover everything, you know. Yeah, so we just want to keep you like kind of posted on what's going on, even if we don't have time to like dive into it long term, you know, would be like fun man, would be a like eventually we could do like a like a daily show thing with like an auxiliary corresponding like a like a like a reporter or something like that. Maybe down the line. I thought, I thought it would be funny anyway, So Joe, uh, you're doing the minutes this week. Let's let's see what you got. Yeah. Yeah, A couple of things real quick here. Uh So, for the first time since nine, Florida anglers may be able to take a goliath group or home for dinner. A vote will be made by Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission this week on the final version of fishing regulations for goliath grouper that was drafted and initially approved in October. We covered that story back then, talking about how many anglers say, hey, look, there's plenty of them out there, so let's do this, and then the scuba industry is saying yes, but leave them alone because our clients like to look at them. Um. The rules feature a highly regulated limited harvest of these fish, which can grow over six hundred pounds and eight feet in length. So we'll see what happens there. That's a lot of meat. Man, if you're gonna kill one, how about a twenty pounder six hundred pounds. That's a bit one other thing here, so Best Pro Shops owner Johnny Morris is reviving the World's Fair of Fishing in Springfield, Missouri this spring. The event will showcase two hundred exhibitors representing over fifty manufacturers across boating, fishing, and outdoor gear. Um. There will be more than five hundred thousand square feet of merchant dice, much of it on sale. It reduced prices from boats to rods the clothing now. The event expects to bring upwards of three hundred thousand people in over the course of five days, especially with added incentive though not for me, from acts like Dirk Spentley, Luke Bryan, and Hank Williams Jr. Hank Hank Williams Jr. I'd watch him. I got cursed out by him once I brought that up one fourth long story anyway. Yes, we don't have time for that right now. But he called me an m r ef heer and kicked me off his property. Um. Anyway, I brought up that story because Marris, who's big time conservation is his earmarked fifty percent of the proceeds from all of that, both admissions to the fair and concert tickets for outdoor conservation. So if you're in that neck the woods and going to that, you are giving back a little bit with that one. There you go. Okay, conservation minutes, man, You know I hate to make you. I hate to make you talk so much. Um, And we got it on mind. Yeah, I know you don't mind. We we got a figure it out a little bit better. Maybe whoever's lead it is, uh, the other person reads the conservation minutes. But all that said, Joe, it is your lead today. So you're gonna have to keep You're gonna have to keep talking what you got for us in this week's fish news. Yeah, don't forget the mighty fill. Our audio engineers gonna judge this. I don't think Phil should should consider conservation minutes. I think that the battle still has to range stories and listen ironically. Um. Like we said with Conservation Minutes, it's not to say we won't cover bigger stories where appropriate. And I actually have one that's that's very conservation bent this week. So a few listeners sent this along and I appreciate it very much. It comes from the website biographic dot com um, and it covers an initiative to get rid of brook trout in New Mexico. UM. Brook trout are found throughout the American West, including in the Rockies, Sierra Nevada, and Cascades. But what some people may not realize is that they are actually invasive there. Now, if you live east of the Mississippi, you know, especially if you grew up in the northeast where Hayden and I did, this may come as a surprise because brook trout wild and native ones especially are kind of a big deal out here, Like they're this, Yeah, they're the state fish in Pennsylvania and New Jersey were talking earlier, We were talking earlier. Man, those are like my favorite things to fish for. Yeah, oh yeah, the big deal here, and they're arguably the most beautiful trout species. Um. You know, it's against it, well, I know, although Mark Kenyan just recently did the six Fish Man was listening. I hope, I hope he's listening. He recently said that cutthroat were the prettiest, and everybody was like, you need to catch brook trout. Mark sounds gonna say, get out of here with that noise, Go find a shed Mark Kenyon. Anyway, Uh, you know, brookies are so intertwined with East and culture and prize that it could be hard to imagine them being highly unwanted and actually a real pain in the assid elsewhere. Um. According to the story, which provides a fascinating history lesson, um, just so we understand what's going on the Mississippi River. That's the natural barrier that stopped those fish from from from getting west, from migrating naturally, and they theoretically could have uh through the Mississippi, but it's just too warm. So that was like the natural barricade, which means every brook trout west of the Mississippi was planted and planning was rampant. Hold on, hold on, I'm sorry, I I'm I'm very interested in your news story. I in the wintertime, like a brook trout couldn't just I mean it could, but if you think of Um, where a lot of these wild and native brook trout are in comparison to the Mississippi. I mean, you'd be talking about fish swimming from the headwaters in North Carolina and West Virginia and wherever, all the way down to the Big Water, all the way to the Ohio River or whatever. I had like a totally like childlike conceptualization of what you were talking about, know what I am, Like, little cold water estuary going right down to the edge of the Mississippi and another cold water estuary just right on the other side. No no, no, no, no no no. That's why I'm saying it's theoretically possible for them to do that. But last time, no no, no no. But I mean, plus, you got to consider predation, Like if you're a six inch brookie swimming through the Mississippi, something is speaking eating you, you know what I mean. Um. Anyway, planning was rampant during the era when European settlers were arriving in the US and droves and as they migrated west. You know, they don't know what kind of fish they might find out there. They thought it would be a good idea to take brookies along. They like trout, They know trout, and then is the rail system developed. Um, they had special fish cars that were designed just this transport, and along the route they would just stop at track side lakes and rivers and either offload the fish with trucks or just fill milk cans and run them down and dump them. Um. It was. It's a really interesting story. It said. During this time, during the late nineteenth century, what was referred to as acclamization was in vogue. And it means that people back then wrongly believed that introducing a species improved ecological conditions. Yeah. Yeah, it's like we're gonna make that better, right, And it's a great quote from the story. It says, as author Kim Todd writes in Tinkering with Eden, ponds and lakes, rather than being viewed as complex ecosystems, were treated as outdoor aquariums waiting to be filled, and says even the Sierra Club, which now campaigns against invasive species, was involved back then transplanting large numbers of brick trout another trout in the lakes and streams along its guided routes through the High Sierra so that paying customers could have and all then tick Wilderness experience UM. So bottom line, as as pretty as wild brookies are, they they're also pretty voracious and they outcompete native species for food and habitat, which brings us back to this current eradication effort. UM Graduate students from the Department of Wildlife and Conservation Ecology have been shocking Leandro Creek in New Mexico in an effort to compare brook trout numbers to native Rio Grand cutthroats, which are one of the most malign trout species um in the country. Today, the Rio grands are are found in only ten per cent of their historic native range, and brooke brookies and Rio grand cutthroats are the only trout that live in this tiny stream, and the team was seeing five brookies for everyone cutty when they shocked. However, that's most that's yeah, exactly right now. However, most of the brook trout good one. Most of the brook trout the team captures they are males, and that it's because Leandro is the host of an ongoing experiment using trojan trout. That is that is that like a is that is that a trout condom? Uh? No, I think it's playing off the trojan horse. But what you're talking about breeding and trojan condoms too, you know, pocketfull, pocketfull of trojan I think Prince said, is that where trojan condoms. You can research that on your own time. I'm gonna keep going on here. So what is a trojan trout? A trojan trout is a lab produced brookie. Um, it's that. That's that they are made to carry not one, but two copies of UM Y chromosomes that codes maleness, So they have no X chromosome to pass on. So to break that down, these lab made trojan brookies, they can spawn with the female wild female brook trout in the stream, but they'll never pass on the chromosomes to create more female brook trout. Uh, it sounds like it's gonna work. Well, well maybe so. The program has been going on since these Trojan brook trout have been implanted in several streams across the Vermijo Reserve. However, Um, this actually all started way back in two thousand eight when fisheries biologist Dan Shield came up with this idea and started making brookies at a hatchery in Idaho. I believe it was now you said this is gonna work. This hasn't been in practice long enough to determine if it will. But just to give you an idea, the New Mexico streams um first had these Trojan brookies implanted in eighteen. By the end of the second spawning season, of the fish captured in Leandro Creek were mail and also thirty percent of the juveniles captured from test streams in the area were the mail offspring of the y y trojan brook trout. So the idea, right is that this will eventually cause the brookie populations to just burn out because there won't be any emails. So you say, will it work? I mean, here's the here's the thing. While this process takes much longer, it's like a long game deal, it could definitely be a better alternative to dealing with invasives with things like wrote note right, a chemical They've used that in Maine as an example to rid certain systems of smallmouth. The problem with with chemically treating, of course, is that you risk killing the fish you're trying to save to get rid of the ones you don't. But you know, all good things take time. Man. I'm actually like this story was on like the periphery, Like I thought about taking this one. I didn't read all the way through it. But this is one of like the first um conservation solutions of this ILK where I've like heard and be like, oh, that actually sounds like pretty tenable. So it makes perfect sense. It's just how long does it take to play out? And here's a final note, And you're gonna find this interesting because I was blown away by this right here. Um. It turns out that east of the Mississippi, several states, including Tennessee and North Carolina, are also very interested in Trojan trout, ironically to save their native brookies, which are being overtaken in many watersheds by non native rainbow trout. So we've stopped so many rainbows on the East coast that they are actually breeding strongly enough in certain areas that little wild rainbows are overtaking our prized native brookies. So these states want these labs and hatcheries to start creating Trojan wy y rainbows for us to put in these mountain trickles in North Carolina and West Virginian stuff to get rid of the rainbows. Yeah, I'm genuinely excited about this. Man. You hear this kind of story played out with like early you know, I'm using quotes wildlife management, you know, particularly like I was talking with somebody about this the other day, like wild life diplomacy, like uh, like Roosevelt dropped all those elk down in New Zealand. You know, you know what I mean. It's it's weird that coinciding with the ease of international travel. A lot of folks were like, you know what, you know, it's gonna be a great like gift to uh to give to this this country that I'm hoping to build relations with an invasive species. Yeah, yeah, you know, And I think this is a really fascinating approach. The thing is if you're looking at it on this very small scale, these small streams, these headwaters in the east and these small streams, I mean they're doing this in streams you could jump across, right, you know, like Pennsylvania Blue Line type of streams. Um, But like, is is this translatable to Asian carp to snakeheads? Would it? Eventually? I Mean, now you're once you jump into these big systems where you're trying to eradicate something in this huge water ship verse, seeing how it works just in this one stream first, you know, is that viable? But um, I think it's a it's a very noteworthy and and and cool study. Um I love the idea, but I really did, yeah, And it seems like a good way to like manage these really delicate ecosystems that are these blue lines and these like headwaters. And I remember, you know now on the East Coast, one thing that we don't often do is you know, it's not like out here in Montana where like all the fish are fishing for a wild you know, the on the on the East coast. One of the I mean I never killed wild fish on the East Coast, No, never, um. But one of the few wild fish that I did kill was in a particularly good brook trout blue line that will remain nameless. I had fished it a couple of times, and you know it was one of those spots and I've told you about this place. You fish it like twice three times, you know it's spring or summer, and otherwise you're try and keep the pressure on it off it rather but you could do like, you know, a bunch of like I mean, you can catch all the brook trout you wanted out of there and just have a ball. And I call it brown trout in there one time. You better believe, man, I pulled that thing up and popped its gills, and you know, I mean, I ate it. But the yeah, I mean, the irony of all this is that every most of the things we love are theoretically invasive. There's brown trout down the street from you in Montana because somebody put them there, you know. So I always get a little bit of chuckle out of that when I when I see these things. Although in this case we're we're at least dealing with true natives. Rio grands are true natives. The brook trout out here are true natives. Um, But you know, it's it's like this is an example of where planting ultimately was a bad deal. At the same time, you know, I'm sure there are other rivers and New Mexico that are loaded with rainbows and browns that people love, but they weren't there either. Somebody dumped them too. So it's always like, you know, a little like ha ha, say a rainbows in Mexico are no no, no, I mean like wild, I think, so I don't I I don't know that for sure, but I mean they're wild throughout the Rockies, and there's Rockies in New Mexico. Are there not? Yeah, but they're not wild on like this side of the Rockies because we're east of the Continental Divide here. Like I'm listeners, I'm bad at geography, and that's basically what I'm asking Joe about, who appears to be equally bad at geography. No, you are west of the divide in Bozeman, are you not? Now at geography? I leave the East coast and I forget that not every river flows north to south. So anyway, Um, but yeah, fascinating, Udy, really curious to see how that plays out in the long game. Please enter your password. You have one unheard message needsborn in front of a bitch if you give away one of my fish and holes by GEO tagging him on social media on the flash of end of message, delete press seven, save deleted. Alright, So I hate to do it, but we have to talk about something that we'd call, um like a major bummer. But take heart that it's like being used to avoid major tragedy. Washington State, after careful science based consideration, has imposed major restrictions on a particularly beloved fishery. Um. I'm going to read a real quick section from the official press release put out by the w d f W. In an effort to me management objectives and provide necessary protection for dwindling wild steelhead populations, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife today announced a full closure to all sport fishing throughout the Washington Coast and the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Uh, dude, I know that there's some like steelhead. Dude, like just cringing in my pronunciation of that. So it's it's either fuca or fuca when it's probably I was like, I was like, he's gonna say fuca. We have to bleep those now that it's a proper anyway. The full closure will take effect Tuesday, March one. So this happened on what was that Tuesday? Oh? Yes, because it says Tuesday, March one. I'm dumb. The closure follows the review of preliminary data that suggests the forecasted returns are likely coming back is low as thirty percent of what fishery managers expected, foreshadowing perhaps the lowest return ever recorded in some rivers. Based on historic return timing, most hatchery steelhead runs have ended, and the wild steel head returns are more than one third of the way complete and and this is like a there is an inception quote a quote inside a quote. Throughout our conversations with anglers and the broader coastal community, we've been upfront about our commitment to designing fisheries that meet our conservation objectives, said Kelly Cunningham, w d f W Fish Program Director. With this preliminary data in hand that now suggest coastal steelhead returns are significantly lower than we've expected, we need to take bold, swift actions for the future of these runs. Now, yeah, now this is tough, and there are multiple sides to what's going down here right away, people and I think we gotta say, like west Side Steelheader's heart goes out. But I mean, if this is what it's going to take to to build back, I'm sure there are some people who agree with this. The same thing has been suggested on the Striper coast, like how about we just not fish for them for a few years? So, you know, so I feel so bad for you guys, but maybe drastic measures. You know, right away, people are going to be disappointed, and this is going to hurt a bunch of guides who make their livelihood pursuing these fish. Um, there is no doubt about that. But here's the thing, at least for now, it appears it's short term right the forest through the trees man um. The fact is steel had been declining for at least the last seventy years. A recent study titled Historical Records reveal changes to the migration, timing and abundance of winter steel head in Olympic Peninsula rivers, Washington State, USA, by John R. McMillan, Matthew R. Sloat, Martin Leerman, and George Pess discovered as much as a fifty decrease of returning steel head in the op the study gets into a lot of hard all the facts and much of the outlook is, you know, at least on the current trajectory, grims not good. Yeah, So historically the runs used to begin in It is like a little background on all the on all this and this is something that I gleaned from the study. Right, So, historically the runs used to begin in November, but the runs have been getting progressively later. A lot of folks like, don't even get a jump on steelhead fishing until, you know, I think like January is when a lot of folks consider that season to be starting in earnest um. The authors of the aforementioned study hypothesized that this is not so much the fish as a whole, like simply delaying their return to freshwater, or like shifting run timing. Rather, what they think that we're witnessing is a shortened run, perhaps having lost the early returning steel head in their entirety. So rather than like it makes sense because in no migratory fishery generally speaking, do all the fish come at one time, Like you get this wave and this wave and and so. Yeah, they're saying, so if there you know, to break it down like real quick, if there are three waves right, one starting in November, one starting in December, and one starting in you know, January, February, they're saying that the first and second waves are just like not happening, doesn't exist. Yeah, and it's not that all these fish have decided to move over to the later wave, it's that they no longer exist. Now, there's a lot to back this up. Historical ledger. The authors discovered detailed runs from nine to nineteen sixty that were significantly larger than what some scientists even estimated. This is an impact on how we interpret the runs we experience today. So we're working with a new data set. Up until fairly recently the steel head runs on the Olympic Peninsula were continued. We're considered to be strong. However, with the new context provided by a larger, more complete data set, the level of decline has become pronounced. To put simply, there used to be far more steelhead than we thought, and we've lost a lot of them. So anyway, all all that to say, while being like relatively recent in terms of I guess like the broad scope of a fishery's history, the steel had have been sliding for longer than thought. Um. Now, to get him more like local boots on the ground, take by someone who is intimately familiar with the OP and the steelhead fishery. I reached out to my buddy Lee Geist. Lee's a lifelong resident of the OP as well as a member of this year's Coastal Steelhead Advisory Committee, and I you know, I was, I was like, hey, man, do me a favor, give me a quote, And he said, the OP has if you have a moment where you're not depressed, please give me a call if you if you want to come down from the roof. He said, the OPI has been in steep decline, and it's no secret. I think the way we determine in season runs is not very reliable. So the slightest hint of being under escapement, and folks, for those who don't know, escapement is the number of salmon or steelhead or other anadrumous fish uh that gets through the gauntlet of anglers, commercial fisherman and predators to reach spawning grounds. So when Lee says under escapement, he's saying under objective spawning numbers in essence. Um Anyway, he says that I think the way that we determine in season run size is not very reliable, so the slightest hint of being under escapement requires heavy handed moves by the agency. I want to be fishing badly, but it's comforting to know that those fish will be unmolested in March for the first time in a long time. And that's a big deal, um I. And it has come back to me that's the end of the least quote. I know we all like to blame like the commercial boogeyman, but and we talked about this in our Madison River conversation a while back. Uh, pressure from recreational anglers in the guide community has a real impact. We'd like to think that like catch a release fishing is is harmless way to like, I don't know, like essentially play with a fish. But once it gets beyond a certain scale or like a you know, a a Gladwell tipping point, it changes fishes patterns and behaviors, including when it comes time to spawn. Anyhow, Lee, thank you for the quote. Uh, Joe, your thoughts, Well, what you said is is correct. Um. You know, if you go back a few decades, Uh, we we can talk about um, west side steel compare that to East Coast stripers. For the guys out here. The bottom line is there we're not as many people out recreationally fishing for those fish. Like in all fisheries, there has been um an uptick in in pressure. I don't I don't care what it is. That's the age we live in. It's a social media thing. It's an internet thing, you know, so when you know, even to compare the two again, even though we're talking about these steel had running these massive rivers, super big rivers, long rivers, right, they're still in this confined space, which makes them vulnerable. Right, they're gonna use certain passages to move up. Guys, figure that out, um, you know, versus striper in the ocean. But even then you look at something like spawning season here. Well, you know, if there's three thousand boats in Raritan Bay on a Saturday where they're all spawning verse two hundred boats thirty years ago or a hundred boats thirty years ago. Shit, yeah, like for anybody to say that, Um, you know, recreational fishing for for certain things, um like is no longer a factor. In other words, there's always been this attitude of like commercial commercial commercial, like recreational guys, the government could let us do whatever we want and it's never gonna have an impact. Now that's not true. Like, that's just you know, false false thinking. Um. There are instances where I agree more or less, like, Um, tuna is an example. I don't I don't think there's enough people with the means to go tuna fishing with the right boat and the amount of money, uh for that to make much of you know, as much of an impact as big commercial operations. So it varies, um, you know, a little, little by little, depending on the what we're talking about. But I mean, once those steel had getting a river, it's just another trout in the stream. So you think about your favorite trout stream. Forget about a migratory run. If that got pounded, you know, over and over again and people were taking fish and harassing fish. Like you said, any fishery will adapt to that pressure and the fish will behave differently. Um it kind of you know. I I won't call him out by name, but we recently got a letter from a listener about his struggles on the Salmon River in Palaska. That's East Side Steel, right manufactured fishery. Dude, having good fishing there is harder than it was ten years ago. I don't care what anybody says. And that's some of that is because of some sort of pitfalls with with runs and year classes. But okay, all those fish are still there. You can't tell me they're not adapting to pressure. They are getting harder to catch than they used to be. So um, I think, as painful as this is now, I would bet the bulk of the devoted West Side steel crew is like you know, like likely said, good, give him a frigging break for one season through March to just you know, be completely left alone, unmolested, you know, no fighting. Because I'm also I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure the further these fish get up the system, the further away they get from the coast. They've been through damns and an onslaught of this and that and the other thing. You know, you catch them up the system, now you're you're also fighting a fish that's been through a lot of ship So it's very reasonable to say that that fish might not have as good of a chance to survive or or get to where it needs to to spawn. So ultimately, UM, I do think this is a good thing, despite it being a bummer right now. If I was out there, I would be an advocate for this, I would say, good, you know, let's just do it anyway. Um, we're gonna hear what Phil has to say. What what conservation message he was more into this week, since uh, you know, nobody can can can mount their their steel head on the west coast, how about some tips on the best way to get that seven inch native brookie from the ten carra rod to a plaque over your mantel. So we're gonna hear from Phil and then We're gonna go right to the bent helpline and give you some thoughts on that. I normally edit the show at home, but today I'm working from the office directly across from Hayden Samach, who not only tried to write my own fish News judgment jokes, but tried to declare himself the winner. Hayden, why do you deserve to win win fish News this week? Well, filled, because I'm bigger than you, and the winner this week is Hayden Samach. What do you laughing at, Martini? You're not an idiot, You're not a gamblooning hellboy, You're a fisherman. Best what's okay? So today on the bent helpline, Um, we have a question from Bradley Dalton. Uh. Now, I'm not sure if Brad was just interested in what we thought or he meant to have this as a submission, but he Brad, If you're listening, uh, here's your answer man. So his question was, Guys, I'm pretty much a want to be angler and have never had a fish mounted. But since my understanding is that all fish mounts are plastic anyway, why the heck would someone want a plastic bath toy? Stuck on the wall. I sure wouldn't want to stay at a plastic dear face, but would love a monster buck in the man cave. These pictures are from Anderson University in South Carolina when I went to college, and these are real fish. Bradley is attached three images of of skin mounts, old fish, but real fish. If they used to do it this way, why not now? Thanks Brad Dalton, uh South Carolina. So Brad, Brad, Brad, Brad, there's there's a yeah, go ahead. Well, you know, to be honest, we I started writing him back. In fact, I finished writing him back and then realized that the link to tax dermy would make this ideal for our Makers themed Bent podcast. We're having this one? Well not well, not only would I do that, I'll add to that that if we if we as we press on with the Maker's deal, there are there is a a skin mount taxidermist out there that I absolutely want to have on that segment. So this is a good sort of lead into what we would talk about there. But I think there's no other way to start an answer to Brad other than Brad is extremely wrong on many count I'm not being rude I'm just being honest. First of all, like to call replica taxidermy a bathtub toy plastic is extremely false. And also to say that to hint that nobody does skin mounts anymore is also very false. There so many different options these days. If you want to fish on your wall and in the room I'm sitting in, I have all of them, so I can speak to this. Okay. So the way that I want to answer this, Joe, is I want to do like you have a soft spot for skin mounts. Yes, I do, I do, but but like not like to the exclusion of other things. But you like them, I do. Now, I don't dislike skin mounts, but I am a proponent of the fiberglass mounts, and and we'll and we'll get to that in a minute. So why don't you start off talking about the skin mounts and then I'll pick it up with the fiberglass replicas. What do you think? Yeah, I mean that that's well, I I yeah, But I can't do that exclusively because it's not a you're the replica guy and I'm the skin mount guy. It's it's totally case by case. And I am certainly a huge fan of replica amounts. That's mostly what I have. But I think, um, first of all, they're fiberglass, not plastic. That's neither here nor there. The bad reputation that replica mounts get, right, it is from the fact that you can get them from a bunch of different sources. And I am here to tell you if you catch a fish, or for that matter, shoot a shoot an animal, deer, elk, whatever, and like you really want that thing on your wall, that is not the time to pinch pennies. Like there is no such thing as budget taxidermy. I don't care whether it's skin or replica or what. So, yeah, I mean just to use um. I'm looking right now. The first bass stripe bass I ever call it, that was that was broke forty pounds. I had a replica mount made. I had that made by a small time operator in Philadelphia who was own throughout the area for his detailed paint work. So even though it was a replica, right, his paint work is phenomenal. I love So, I love how I ted you up to talk about skin mounts and instead you've just like totally trodden over all the replica arguments to make. But I'm getting Well, that's too bad. You let me speak first. This is the always always, but I can't I can't talk skin without without explaining this. So, um, you know it's it's a it's a beautiful replica mount. Likewise, you catch a forty pound bass and you only want to spend a couple of hundred bucks, you can get a mount out of Florida. There are are like King Sailfish mounts, Grace tax Redermy, they make exquisite replica mounts. There are clearing houses that will knock out a forty pounds striper for you for not very much money. And it is gonna look like dogshit. Like the paint job is not gonna be good. It's it's gonna look like shit. Um. So you well, as with everything skin or not, you have to pick who you're working with, and more you pay, the more you're gonna like it for the most part. Um. But to look at something like a forty pound striper as an example, one forty pound striper looks like the next forty pound striper looks like the next one, like the next one, like the next one. There is not a whole lot of unique um characteristics of that fish. So therefore, if that's the case, you're talking about a dolphin you called on vacation, or a sailfish or a striper huge proponent. I mean, if you want to of letting you know, the sailfish go, or even if you take the mahi home to eat, there's no reason you can't have your fish tacos, but need to save that for a skin mountain. Now Likewise, there have been instances where I just felt skin was the the option I would be happier with in the long run. Prime example, I have a silver salmon here on my wall. I'm not gonna get into the whole story because it's very long, but there was a very specific reason why I chose to have that fish mounted. It was kind of like a a hell week and that was the closer after a lot of hard work. It's a particularly big fish, and I call it in nil Shick, Alaska, and I couldn't get my head around the idea of having some dude in Florida who may or may not have ever seen or held a silver salmon um painting up a silver salmon for me. So in that instance, I had a skin mount made, and I had it made at a taxidermist in nintil Shick. I paid a shipload of money for it. But that was one where I'm like, I want the real fish there. I want the skin from the salmon that I caught on my wall. So I am certainly not opposed to skin mount taxidermy. But for me, there has to be I think, the right reason. Like I know, I know guys in the striper world who don't kill any stripers, but if they catch their fifty or sixty pound dream fish, hey, there might not be the right mold for that out there. It's like they would sacrifice that one that they've been trying for for so long to have the real skin on their wall. So it's it's totally case by case, right, Okay. So to bring it back to the question, people do in fact still skin mount fish. Um. Now his question about why you would want a a plastic bath toy is he describes it, bro, you just haven't seen good ones. I guess I don't. I don't really know what to tell you. But so here's the reality. Like those replica amounts, A replica amount is a fiberglass mold of a certain fish and they come in they can come in size I believe you can custom order um like a bunch of sides, because you take those measurements. You take the length and the girth. Yeah, you take you take length and girth. And if anybody's thinking about doing this, shoot tons of video, tons of pictures, like do a video pan. The more detail they have, the better. For the most part, these days, a fish will already of sacrifice its life to make the mold that you need. However, if you did catch something that's like a world record or you can also you know, send that into be molded. Sometimes they'll even cut you a break because now the outfit is now gaining a mold from your fish. So on the rare occasion it can be completely customed. For the most part, Um, you know, no fish has to die. There's a mold already there. One already sacrificed itself. Yeah right, So okay, So the deal here is that, as Joe was alluding to, man, you can take photographs of the fish that you wish to have on your wall, and then you can release that fish. Um, you send them in the pictures, they look at it. Uh, they paint the fish in the exact same way the good places do that's what separates the difference. Yeah, Like they'll they'll go in within like an airbrush, and they'll do it specifically. You're not just saying like I want a striper of this size and they're going like, great, we have three of them on the shelf here, and they're sending you one because it does not have the same markings. They're going through with all the care of how a taxidermist would paint a skin mounted fish anyway. Yep, you know, because that's the other thing. When you get a skin mounted fish, it's not like it's not like mounting like a deer or a turkey, where like the for or the plumage retains its color, the skin just becomes uh you know, like gray, you know, I mean it just it just becomes whatever, like you know, detail less color um you know, a a a piece of fish skin turns into in the taxidermy process and they have to paint it anyway. Really, what you're paying for is like I guess, the attention to detail in like the scale articulation, but by the time they put the finish on it, that allows that thing to stay in like in a stable form. They've lacquered over those scales anyway, It's not like you can get your finger under there. Yeah, well, and I would I would venture to guess. I sort of know, but I'd love to talk to an expert. Skin Mounted taxidermy has come a long way. Like so, I collect old skin mounts. I find it flea markets and stuff. And as as Brad pointed out, you see these old ones, they look like trash. Well why is that they didn't have the technology back in the day to get all the oil out of the head and out of that fish, and over time it will degrade. I think that's gotten a lot better with with good skin mount guys. Most of the time they never use the fish is real head, so the skin is real. Often the fins, like the peck fins and things are are plastic and added later, and they use a head so that that that that lasts a lot longer. That was the case with my salmon still looks great all these years later. I got a walleye over here. Its head is like dripping onto my floor, you know. And so and the other thing with it too, is that when you send a fish to the taxidermist, much much to the dismay of the breeze, you do not get that fish back, like, you don't get to eat it. You don't you don't get to eat it. So really, when when you when you take everything into account, you're basically killing a fish for no significant gain. And oftentimes the fish that you want to kill is like a good breeding fish based Really, I don't know if folks know this, but I'm pretty sure it's whales and humans are the only things that live beyond their like reproductive capabilities, right, So any large fish that you're killing probably has the potential to be one of the best breeders in that in that like you know, stock of fish. So yeah, with a lot of things, with a lot of things, not not all but you but you're right, but you're right. I will throw Okay, well I was gonna say that. Um. The other thing that you like run into it is like tarpin, right. Tarpin famously are not a good fish to eat. In fact, like there's that I don't know if it's like a rumor or like an actual thing where they tried to make cat food out of them in the fifties, but even the cats wouldn't need them. Yeah, I think it's urban legend, but I've heard that. Yeah. Um, so it's like just why do it? Man, There's just like no point in it. And what the other thing is, you're going to have something that like retains its shape and structure like forever. I'm not aware of any instance where like a fiberglass fish replica has turned to ship. No, they won't aware of a million skin mounts that have done exactly that. And I'll throw one more out before we get off of this. Actually, uh told to have a mixed media in terms of fish on my wall. Here, I have become the biggest freaking proponent of having your fish would carved. Now. The trick to this though, is commissioning a really exceptional carver, because if the guy is not like top notch, then they can look more like bath toys than the replica. Um but Rich Metzger shout out to him. He's he's local per Casey, Pennsylvania. He'd be another great guy to have on as a maker. Um. He has done two fish from me, a snake head and a tiger trout. And it's not cheap. But like we said, if you want it done right, it's not going to be cheap. The beauty of wood carving if if, if the guy is really good, Um, it's a one of a kind. So if you order a forty pound stripe bass from a replica house, you are getting the same shape, size, fish, same orientation as a million other people that caught a forty pound stripe bass. You get your trout or large mouth or whatever would carved. You can have that sucker facing down, up, sideways, tail moving, body, half bent, anything you want. It is the ultimate customization of amount. And Rich is so good. He actually carved a large mouth that was on the cover of field and stream for us back in the day. That's that's that's my deal. Like, I think that's even better than replica. I think that might be what I ought for next time. Should the finances allowed, So Brad, in order to uh, just to quickly summit our answer number one, you can still get a skin fish mount number two, Uh, you are not correct in your assessment of quality. Replicamounts. Man, they're good. The fish doesn't have to die. You're gonna have it for longer, and you know you'll probably be extremely happy with it should you choose to go that route in the future. And finally, Joe recommendation for wood carvers. That is a I think that's a really solid way to go. Man, Yes, it is. Like I said, though, you got to do your research and find the right guy. Um, the guy used man some of his work. They look more realistic than the skin and fiberglass mounts I have. Hey, if you've got a question for the Bent help line we can help you answer. Do please send that to Bent at the metator dot com and um maybe we'll rap about your problems and concerns right here on the Bent helpline. So that's it for this week. Hopefully we've inspired you to get out and make something, whether that's a sandwich, a memory, or a payment on your student loans. No man for bell, No payments on student loans. Don't don't do that. You'll get a financial trouble. I'm not. Don't come to you for financial advice. Thanks again to Ryan Ebert for joining us, and don't forget we love it when you tell us which fishy dive bars we should join you at. So keep those bar nominations, sale bin items, awkward photos, questions, and whatever else you want to send coming to Bent at the b D dot com. Yeah, keep using those degenerate angler and bent podcast hashtags, especially if you post something that you made, whether that was in a fine craftsman shop setting or walk completely intoxicated in the cheapest motel room on the river. Yes, and please don't inundate us with every fly you've ever tied. Don't don't go bad. Love me, love my