00:00:00 Speaker 1: M. Kenneth had stopped Uncle LiOD Ell and you're doing about having dogs in the game, refuge, Uncloda said, I ain't got on dogs in the game, Refuge Kenneth. He just looked at Uncle I mean went to pull his pistol and he said, we'll find out whose dog it is. And unclodill cocky rifle and said that dog dies, so do you. On this episode of the Beargrease podcast, we're telling a story that's never been written in a book or seen on a film. It's a story that's close to me. It's from my hometown. I want to introduce you to two brothers who were some of the most notorious turkey hunting outlaws to ever trapes the Hills of Arkansas. Their names were Louis Dell and Charlie Edwards, but in an ironic twist, they were deeply respected in our community for their forth rightness, genuine nature, and generosity. This story is about bar fights, evading game wardens, and making whiskey, all interwoven into a story about character and identity. I wasn't expecting that either. I'm in search of learning something about human nature, something about myself. I've committed to resolving a lifelong position of inner conflict of revering these men but also disdaining wanting disregard of the law. On this first podcast, we're gonna get to know the brothers through the voice of a son, men who hunted with them, and the game warden that chased them for thirty years. Though the brothers are both gone from this earth. In later episodes, will dissect their lives with the experts to learn why we love them and why we love outlaws. Well, I guess you get to decide if you like them or not. I really doubt you're gonna want to miss this one. Keep playing on, catching me, keep it, put you forward or the raf Canna shoes so and then you turn walked out. You know, the meeting was pretty well over then that kind of busted things that you know. My name is Clay Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their lives close to the land. Presented by f HF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. When when I first started with with the Commission, the first thing supervisor did was tella that there's a standing offer of a state dinner for the officer and his wife if they can catch Louis Dale and Charlie Edwards illegal turkey hunting, and that would be the best state dinner anywhere in the state. And that stood for a long time, but it never got filled. Nobody. He never had to pay it up because nobody ever called him. Nobody ever called him. We had state police undercover agents come in, we had Federal Fish and Wildlife undercover come in and they hunted with Charlie, but he never ever and they've never hunted illegally. They count close, but these officers never could get enough to catch them. That was retired Arkansas Game and Fish Game Warden Jimmy Martin. He worked in Polk and Montgomery County, Arkansas, in the wash A Toss, which are the only mountain range between the Rockies and Appalachians that run east and west. At one time there were snow Captain soared ten thousand feet hall. Today the highest peaks are in the three thousand foot range, eroded by wind water and ice so deep in time the gaps are filled only with speculation. Time also erodes human stories, but much faster. Aldo Leopold alluded to the fact that individual cultures of the world reflect the wilderness from which they were hewn. This is a big story hewn by wilderness and hardship, and it's unusually personal for me. You see, I grew up in Mina, Arkansas and the Western Wash ATSs This was basically the hometown of Louis Dell and Charlie Edwards, though they lived in a smaller community about fifteen miles east of town. I grew up immersed into stories of their exploits, and like a shadow over our community, it was impossible to escape their lore, their influence. Charlie was born in nineteen four Ay one and passed away in ten at the age of seventy three. Louis del the younger brother, was born in nineteen and passed away just last year in April of one, at the age of seventy six. These were modern men, and I want to level with you. For years, I've wanted to talk about them, but I couldn't figure out how to get around two things, the first being the risk of glamorizing outlawn. We're gonna talk about some poaching on this podcast, but don't blame me if by the end of this you find yourself endeared to these men. Deep in the American psychees of fascination with people who push against the system. You can't turn on a television without hearing stories of law breakers. I didn't start this fire boys, and though it's just under the surface, in many ways, Americans are deeply insecure people, and we're off been enamored with people that have enough fortitude to stand against systems of power. We glean identity from these outliers and aspired to be like them, though the vast majority of us aren't. We're society deeply fixated on obeying laws, and that's why we like the guys that don't. Our law abiding fixation is what has made America a successful nation of law and order, which I like and so do you. In the second part of this series, and yep, I said this is gonna be a series, We're gonna dive deep into history, human psychology, and talk with more law enforcement guys to learn why we love outlaws like Doc Holiday and Body and Clyde will learn while we've created endearing fables like robin Hood and the Duke's of Hazard, the answers blew my mind as the experts laid out a clear roadmap to why we are the way we are. Their origins will shock you, and it might even have something to do with Karl Marx. How's that for foreshadowing. This is the voice of Neil Taylor, a longtime friend of the Edwards brothers. This will give you a scope of the operation these brothers had with turkey hunting. Well, it was one year that Charlie and Louison had a bet going on who could kill the most turkeys. Now this was his was back when he pulled out there in the woods and you had hooted, the only decision you had to make was which gobler is gonna go after? I mean, seeing eighty gobblers in the flock was quite common. They had a contest and I may be a couple of birds off one way or another, but I'm I'm right there. And these turkeys what nambush that they was called up and killed? I think Louis kill thirty six. I think Charlie kill. He was either thirty two or thirty four. Was either twenty six or that was all in one season their best year. But mind you, they did this for decades. The seasonal numbers vary with who you talked to in the community, but undoubtedly in their prime and when turkey populations were extremely good, Louis Dell and Charlie killed more turkeys in a season than the average turkey hunter would in a lifetime. Though they didn't play by the rules that everybody else had to play by. Lodell was a you know, he was I never got In fact, I never went turkey Hume would double one time in my life, but he was. He was about as good on slate calls. He might have heard how you knew how to work one? And it was obviously killed. They killed as many turkey as anybody in the world. That was Andy Brown, and that's a big statement, as many turkeys as anybody in the world. But having known these guys my whole life, and my own dad having hunted with him one time, you'll hear about that episode two. I stand by Andy's statement, though it's only conjecture. I want to tell you my second hesitation in telling the story. Remember I said there were two and it's a result of growing up in a tight knit community. I didn't read these stories. I knew these men and their families, which are still here. I didn't want to tarnish the reputation of the family by broadcasting their story on a national platform. But the Edwards boys themselves didn't seem to care much about that, and I decided the way i'd remedy the situation was go directly to the family and get their blessing to tell the story, which I did. Little did I know what I was getting into. Here's Mr Jimmy Gay Morden giving us a headstart and nugget on understand ending the Edwards and the context of their story. When did you start with the Arkansas game and fish started back in uh about the first five years, it was like the wild West, as far as as turkey poaching, deer poaching, the night hunting net and fish on the Washing Tall River. It was like it's like the wild wild West that we still had the old time poachers. I was initially assigned to Montgomery Kenny, and then I moved back to Polke Kenny. I think it was in nineteen They are old time poachers. They grew up in hard times. Most of them did the ones that I ran across, the hardcore netters that used nets in the rivers and on the lakes, a hard time night hunters for dere, you know, the bad Polk turkey poachers and the bad daytime deer hunters. They were all from old times when times was tough, was hard to come by, and outlaw was just away alive. Most of the old hard, hard, hardcore poachers came from Moonshiner family. Old time poachers and moonshiners, remember those two things. The first family member that I went to when I got permission was Stony Edwards, the son of Charlie. I drove out to the Big Fort community and found him at the Big Fort Mall, which is a small gas station that he and his wife run. I told him I wanted to tell the whole story his dad and uncle, and he agreed. He began by showing me a story from nineteen six. That's an interesting puzzle piece. Tragedy literally struck the Edwards family. I'm reading from a laminated newspaper clipping bound in a three ring binder. So this is nineteen six, and it says officers shoot Carl Edward right in Polk County. Carl Edwards was killed in Montgomery County Sunday afternoon by a bullet fired by some member of a posse that had just arrested two alleged mood shotters, and probably we're searching for more or for anyone connected with the illicit traffic. Edwards, twenty three old, resident of Heath Valley, which is right where we're at in Polk County, was shot and instantly killed as he drove his forward car homeward from a hunting trip in Montgomery County. A single bullet fired by one of the posse of six officers is said to have wounded Edwards brother, killed a dog, and then given Carl Edwards immortal wound as he sat at the steering wheel. The tragedy occurred in the Government Road between Big Fork and Norman. So who was Carl Edwards? To you? He would have been my dad's uncle, Okay, my grandfather's brother. So what were they doing? They were trying to get away from no In all actuality, Uncle Aandy was only I think he was only like ten. They had been coon hunting. They had coon dog in the car and Uncle Andy was in the car and they were coming back and the officers hollered for him to stop, and Karl Hollard, I will at the bottom of the hill. Car didn't have any breaks. But you gotta take the previous history into account because they've been trying to catch him for years and hadn't been able to so when he didn't stop on command, they opened fire. And of course this ad came from the newspaper, which I'm gonna say his bias towards law enforcement at the time, it wasn't a because those men loaded my uncle up, drove him to my great grandparents house and dropped him on the porch when he was shot dead. Yeah, they left him dead on the front porch. Uncle Andy was shot through the ear. He was ten years old. He was shot through the ear, and of course it killed and his son in the car with a coon dog. No, it was too brothers, two brothers. Yeah, they were thirteen years apart. Oh, I see, I see. And the coon dog in the car and was a coon dog. Okay, no kill, kill kill. The dog killed. The dog killed Carl and wounded and so so Carl was a known moonshiner and they'd been trying to catch him. Well, you gotta consider his dad went to Leavenworth Prison for moonshine, and so basically the whole family was in the business. There's no way around it. Yeah. My great grandfather had seven sons and they all lived out here in the valley. Yeah, right over there where I live now. We're still on the original Edwards home place. The whole family was quote in the business of moonshining, and the killing of Carl Edwards and his coon dog in nineteen twenty six was a tough pill for the family to swallow, and Uncle Andy, who was just a child at the time, had a partly shot off ear his whole life. A week after the shooting, the six officers involved would be charged with murder. Carl Edwards was Louis del and Charlie's uncle, though he died before they were ever born. This is another newspaper clipping. Charges of murder have been made against six officers who were in the posse that caused the death of Carl Edwards in Montgomery County last Sunday afternoon. The six were Sheriff George how It names all their names. Ruben Edwards, a brother of the man killed, was in Mina Tuesday and stated that the accused officers had been summoned to court. I just wanted to say this was a murder case, and I mean that in and of itself could lead to a family having some bad taste in their mouth for the law. If it hadn't have been for Rube at that time, the other brothers would have killed all six officers. Rube stopped it and said that it would go to court. Would be better off taking them to court and killing them. But the brothers would have killed them. And they're lucky that they did. In later on, Lucky is probably a good descriptor, because all six officers would be acquitted of the murdered charges they got off. None of them were convicted, nor was there any recompense for the coon dog. This isn't the best way to gain the trust of the government's law men. We've learned an important component of the Edwards story. Mr Jimmy tipped us off to it. They were moonshiners. And let me tell you that stuff doesn't die easy. Have you ever heard of a community whiskey? Still the plot thickens. There were he uh, Davis's, Edwards's, and Putman's all lived in that area. In there, and all of them were the stills. Name was Old Jesus. Okay. The way Dad explained it was when you took a sip of that, that was the first thing out of your mouth, was Old Jesus. That. Yeah, but it would run off a hundred gallons of mash at a time, so it was a big still. It was huge. Yeah. I mean they were the multiple families using in cahoots, using this one put their stuff together to make make the whiskey, get it to market, get it. Once they got it sold, then they had split the money accordingly among the families, and that was their living I mean, that was their cash money. So all their fields and stuff was planted in corn, and the corn was used to feed animals and to make whiskey. That was their easiest way to get it to market. You know, this isn't a giant agricultural area. So people did what they had to do. People did what they had to do. That's an important phrase to remember if you're studying the actions of humans. The ideologies and character developed when living under pressure are hard things to get rid of, even with the passing of time and the pressure. Carl Edwards was killed nineteen six and Stoney's great grandfather went to Leavenworth Prison in Kansas before that for moonshine during the Prohibition era. But the Edwards history goes even deeper. We're laying a foundation to understand Louis Dell and Charlie Edwards. People just show up on the earth, but they're always connected to something behind them, for better or worse. The Edwards family came here in eighty three. I think that we actually settled here. This entire community was settled from one wagon train that came from Georgia to right here. And I guess in a way you could put it up kind of like a mafia family, you know well, and and they took care of each other, you know, all the families around. It wasn't like it is today that you know, there's people were really connected there. They're neighborhoods. Well, you had to have other people to survive. I mean that you have strong allies to survive. Yeah. Nowadays everybody gets up and goes to work. There's people that live in neighborhoods that don't know who lived two houses down. They've never met them, never talked to them, never in some cases, never seen them. These people lived and worked together day in and day out for the same goal. And I think that built stronger ties to the community. Is it easy for you to look back at that history and see your dad and your uncle Louis dell On the way they were and connected back to those times. I mean, it's it's like not a very far jump, is it. No, they retained their youth until they died. The way they were brought up, that was the way they lived. I mean right up until then. You know, strong work ethic. They weren't real religious men. They believed in God. Believe me, Uncle wyd El. When we were at the hunting cabin one time and my uncle never never okay, got a whole lot, but he'd come in from turkey hunting that morning and he said, there's no ways a man can sit up there whereas that this morning and not know that there's not a higher power. They had their own, their own moral compass. It's right and it's wrong, and there ain't no in between, and there wasn't no change in it. Where did that come from? Was their dad like that? Like your grandfather exactly like that? And I'm and I never met my great grandfather, but I'm positive that he was that way. You take a man that raised seven sons on the landing here, he's got to be a pretty strong feller first of all, to put up with seven sons. I've got three, and I wanted to kill him. My grandfather he worked at the pollard in town. He only My grandpa only had one hand. He lost it to an axe, got it chopped off when it was an axe when he was eighteen, and they were splitting stave bolts. But he had went to wipe a chopping block off, knocked the chips off, and the other guy wasn't paying attention and thought he had set another deal up there and took it off of the knacks. It seems the Edward family has been sculpted by hardship and they were outliers with an unusually distinct value system. Here's Neil Taylor describing Louis Dell and Charlie m M. Two boys. Some people ignorantly may disagree with me, but they had their own set of morals and principles. Now they may not have been mine principles or your principles, but they was there and they pretty much lived by you know, even if they didn't like you if they come across you and you needed help, they'd help you. Now everybody knows that they was turkey murdering son of a guns. You know they was probably they are undoubtedly the best turkey hunters in this country and probably any other country in the United States. You know, they fed their families. That's the way they was raised up in their grandparents. You know, has poor people back in times of the Depression and even further back than that, it was a way of life that you had to back in the day, you had to do what you had to do to survive. I heard this consistently. The Edwards brothers had a moral code that they stuck with no matter what. Here's the game more than Jimmy Martin revealing an interesting dynamic of this story and talking about the brothers as kids. Interesting point. You grew up with Louis Dell and Charlie. Yes they were. They were about five years older than I was and then kind of like big brothers. And I don't mean that. You know, if if if my mother was violating game fish regulational law, I'm gonna write a ticket. It doesn't matter if I grew up with Louis Edwards or Charlie or not. That's just the way I work. And they knew that. The brotherhood or whatever we had growing up as kids, that went out the window when I got my job, and they expected it and they wouldn't want anything else but that. What were they like as as kids? Just just wild crazy? You know, we we all were back there. I mean, what do we have for entertainment? But out here in the woods. Was out here in the woods now that there's people, But when I was growing up, things were just different. Back then. You rode rode a horse, I had horses. You might take off from the house and be gone for two days and your parents never They weren't worried about it because they knew you was okay out there in the woods. It wasn't nothing to ride from here to Big Fort all over those mountains. Back there, times were different. This is another statement I consistently heard when talking about the brothers. But they had a unique way of making time linger. You heard Andy Brown on the last podcast telling a turkey story about when Doc Robern wrenched up under a log to grab a turkey. Well, Andy knew the Edwards brothers. Well, here he'll begin to give us an introduction to the brothers the first time he ever met him, the first time I ever met Ludelle. In fact, I knew his dad mag before I ever knew Ludelle. It made me a little stint out west back in the late seventies, and was out there about three years, and I moved back here in that teen eighty and when I did, Um and my brother in law we liked to hunt. And one fall we were east at Big fourk we were hunting, and uh Loudell, he was dog man. He loved run his dogs. And in those days, October one, that's when the dogs got turned loose. That's just the way it was. I mean, it was that's that was That's just what happened. The implication is that on October one it wasn't legal to run dogs or hunt deer. But anyway, Doug and I it was middle October, turkey season was open, and I was eat up with fall turkey hunting. And anyway, I got out there and got a little bunch of young turkeys and got him busted up and call one back in and killed it. And I was proud of that. And Doug, of course we were squirrel hunting too, But anyway, he shot and shot and shot and shot and shot. So anyway, when I come back out, I walked back off and what and those and still call that Lewis Gap. And there still a guy and I've never seen before in my life, but he was standing there and backed up against a tree and he had a he had I'll never forget this. He had a browny automatic shotgun, thirty two inch full choke and he said good morning. I said good morning. And he said, killed you a little gobbler there, hunt. I said, yeah, I got lucky. He said, oh, he said, I'm just up here, squirrel hunt. He said, I don't know what it is you. You just know that, you know, And I knew that that was Charlie. And to describe Charlie Wayland Jennings, that's that's that's, that's the look. So you had heard of Charlie Charlie Lidell. Both I did. And you knew this well and I knew what they were doing. And you know what Andy knew but didn't say, is that Charlie was deer hunting out of season. You just know that, you know. I didn't ask him, but I knew in my mind it's Charlie because he looked a lot like Wayland Jenny's. He had was dark hair and the mustache and the beard and really nice guy. But he was Charlie was a tough guy. I mean he was. He was raw boned and he was tough. So I said, well, I better go. So I walked back off the mountain and walked back up to the duck's car. We were in a little cheval at. She fat and he had six squirrels laying there in the back of the back of the vat. And I said, is that all you have got to show for all the shooting done? And and I understand I'm at that time. I'm well, I would have turned twenty three. I was twenty three years old at the time. Anyway, he says, do you know somebody have the named loud ll Edwards? And I said, well, I've heard a lot about Loudelle. Don't know him personally, but I've heard a lot about him. He said, well, I shot a deer in front of his dogs up there. What have you done on the doorside of Missouri Mountain? So he set us up there in the high line, and I said, well, we better go get it, and tried to get out of here. As we turned around and pulled out, we didn't go. We go twenty yards and this guy who steps right out in the middle of the road, right in front of us. I mean, the ain't no going around him. I mean he's in the middle of the road and he's on my side. He said, good morning, y'all doing good? And I just looked at him and I said, are you really don He said yeah, he said a hecker, you you know, And I said, well, my I told him who I was, and I said, he said, uh, where y'all had it? And I said, well, I said, I'm not gonna lie to you. Lived there, I said, Doug, and shot a deer in front of your dogs and it's up there in the highline. And he was just tickled as anybody I've ever seen in my life. And from that day fourth it was kind of neat because he liked he liked me. Do you think he liked you? Because you're honest with him, You just up front with him. From absolutely, he was an upfront guy. You know, he wasn't gonna Louie Dell. Average, didn't beat around the bush about nothing. It's just the way he was, and I don't know what it is about people in my life. That's the people that I think I'm more attracted to, is the people that you don't have to guess what they're thinking. Louis Dell and Charlie had detected some new blood in their domain, and they went and checked in on the squirrel, turkey and deer hunters. One could surmise that if Andy had made a bad impression, things might have not gone as well. But Louis Dell extended the right hand of fellowship to Andy for life. It was kind of a it was kind of the deal. I mean, if you killed a deer in front of a man's dogs, he was entitled to half the deer. Period. That's just the way it was. He says, you guys, take me up there and drop me off. And he said, I'll get that deer and tell to get up to the house. And he said, y'all come back this afternoon and get it. And he said I'll have it. I'll have to have So we left went home, me and Doug and my sister and my wife. We all went back over to their house that afternoon and he had that dear split right down the middle front shoulder, rib cage, hand quarter, tenderloin and to give that to us from that day forth. And that's been forty two years nearly since that happened. Ludel and I were friends, and so were Charlie. Louis Dell and Charlie had a very clear value system that they functionalized in a consistent way throughout their life. Here's Neil with an example. You said they were genuine, Like, what does that mean to you? What you see is what you get. They had their ways and they didn't care if you agreed with them, were disagreed with them. They was going to do what they was going to do and what they thought was okay. And they didn't seem to have any problem hiding the good and the bad. I mean, everybody knew kind of what they were doing and what they were about. It's not like they had a dual life, like everybody knew what was going on. No, you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, he didn't make no bones about it to the game wardens. You know, he might not tell them what they want to know, you know, admit to anything, but I mean he didn't night it neither back in Uh, I don't know his late seventies. I think they was trying to do away with hunting dogs all exceptable, you know, a little you had to be a certain size or something. They had meeting up there after the Lime Tree, and they was in there and I was Oregon back and forth. That's all old lu He stood up, Hey said, well, I'll tell you fellers what you just do whatever and you wanna do, because that's what I'm gonna do. And he should keep playing on catching me. You better put you forward or drive tennis shoes. So and he just turned walked out. You know, the meeting was pretty well over then. That kind of busted things that you know, four will drive tennis shoes. Louis Dell was known for having a unique command of the English language. So what's what's so interesting to me is how everybody was kind of intrigued with those guys, even if they didn't well because they didn't put They didn't try to make believe that they was something that they wasn't. He he didn't try to make people like it's better than he boys. He didn't like people worse than he was. They didn't dress up in suits to go to this or that they was old country boys. That's not only what they was, it was who they was. Yeah, they were just genuine. They were satisfied with themselves and content of what they was. You know, most people are not like that. Yeah, tell me why why aren't most people like that? If I knew they're quite answer to that, I'd be a pretty smart man. People always want some people to think that they're they're better than they are, they're smarter than they are. They don't have maybe competence in themselves. Maybe they wanted to be something more in life. I don't know them. Well, you know, you you take a lot of paper, and you can see this a lot of paper. People take somebody that wins the lottery, no country boy like may or lou or Charlie. They win thirty or forty million dollars. All of a sudden, they're driving where they've drove to pick up all their life, maybe even a nice truck. You know, all of a sudden they're driving sports cars and wanting to dress and suits and moved to a nice neighborhood and there wanting to be something that they're not. And Loo and Charlie wouldn't like it. Like I said, they was perfectly and content and happy with what they was and they didn't want to be anything else. You know, not both of them was hell billies, so to speak. But Jim Boys wasn't done by any means. That wasn't ignorant. Oh, Louis, he may have looked like hell belly, but you start trading with him or trying to outthink you, you better be good. Louis made a lot of money in his life. There's a lot of well educated college people never made the money Louis did. He was a hard worker. He could say opportunities your mind sale. No matter who you talked to, they'll tell you what a hard worker Louis Dell was and that he was good at anything he did. Here's Andy with some insight. You know what people don't understand about Liddell was he worked hard. You know, you think you hear stories about people like that and you think about them being you know, they get the picture of this this country bumpkin that's a sluggard, and you know he don't want to work. He don't want to do anything. That guy worked hard and he maintained the farm. He built Bertha chicken house for them to grow eggs in. But he had cattle, you know, he cut hay. And you know what a lot of people don't know is LiOD Dell. Uh he had a contract at one time with Walmart stores putting in drop sealings. He raised catfish, so catfish for a living. Uh. He owned some property done in Taylor, Arkansas where they had a catfish farm down there. And yes, I mean he didn't do everything right in life, but he did a lot of things right. And you know, he had a had a huge heart for his community. I don't know, probably twenty five years ago or thirty may have been thirty years ago, there was some people. Uh it was a man and his wife and they were raising kids and grandkids and uh, they lost their home and a lot of people don't know this, but LiOD Dell it wasn't just Lioddale, but he ramrodded it. They put together money and they bought them a mobile home and put back in there so they have a place to live. But the thing about Ludel was is you got exactly what you saw. Why is it so intriguing when someone is exactly what you see? Isn't that what we're all striving to display? But he wasn't just like this with his friends. He was like this with the law too. The saga of Louis Dell and Charlie is defined by an aversion to the law to the man, but a deep devotion to those they called friends. Ironically, the law men even respected them. Here's Mr Jimmy, and in this story, you're gonna hear the name Bertha, which is Louis Delle's wife of fifty four years. So with your patrol and tell me kind of the cat and mouse game that you had with them, just your whole career pretty much. It started off with one day I was following Ludale's truck, and I had followed that truck for hours, and finally, because I shadowing. You know, you if you ever for ever try to follow a truck on the fourth service Road, you try to stay way back, but you know somebody's gonna see you. Eventually I ran at the corner. The truck was dead in the middle of the road, and I never had really lost sight of it because I know that Charlie or lou Dell hadn't been in it, because nobody jumped out of the truck when it stopped. I used on up to the pick up, got out and walked up to it. Bertha was behind the wheel. She's sitting there laughing. I said, ma'am, what's wrong? She said, Jimmy Martin. Don't you know they hadn't been in this truck all day long. So I've been following that truck all day. And she was just a lure, you know. And they put it on the bad because I said that I've been following her all that morning. Nobody they're smart. But there was many a time I would find Louis Dell coming out of the woods. Now how he knew. I would stop be listening for turkeys and I'd hear something crashing coming down side of the mountain. It'd be Louis Dell. He'd come over the truck. Hey, Jimmy, how you don never never called him with a gun. I would even call him back when we had right after we had dogs dog teams in the state. Have the dogs go up. Try the way that he come down from the mountain. Let's see he popped out on the road before season, Yes, oh yes, before season. He's in campus coming out of nowhere. I never could understand how he did it. And so but y'all called dogs in to try to back trail him to where he sat. He thought he we always heard he had a shotgun in a in a hollow tree. Well if he did, we never did find it. He may not have had a gun in a tree. How many times did you trail him with a dog? We only we only did that twice. Becaut that point, we're giving up because if we don't catch him in, you know, with the gun coming out of the woods, you might as well forget it. Because when we brought the dog over two times, we just knew was gonna have him. He come out of the woods. We knew the spot he come out of the woods, the dog with traggling back. But the dog just kept trailing, trailing and trailing for miles, and he never would stop or hit on where there might be a gun. He was a dog trained to find a gun, or he trying to find a gun. He was training to find a shell. The dog could even find a twenty two casing. I mean there were that word. What did what did Louis Delle act like when you guy said here, you're going to get a dog. He didn't bother him at all. It's no sweat. He just laughed, but it didn't shake him. How did he How did he treat you? Was he hostile? He was just just straight up with me as he as he could be. We'd laugh and joke and carry on. You know. If if I caught him, fine, But he says, you're not ever gonna catch me, Jimmy. He said that to you, oh yeah, several times, and I never did, and it wasn't for one to try. And because I wanted that state dinner. I caught a lot of preseason turkey hunters, but never did catch Louisdale or Charlie. So what do you think he was doing? How was he doing it? I thought, and I never could prove it that. You know, Bertha would take him out and drop him off when he'd walk back home went and he I'm sure he did that because she would tell making deep in the forest, and I might catch him on the road in between walking back. But he never had farm, so I know he didn't walk that far over there and then back way. He may have, but he grew up in those woods and he knew him. So he just had probably stashes of guns in different places. That was stereirized. But we never knew. No, he may have took it with him when he when he left this earth. But he was good. He was real good. I thought this would be an interesting question to ask Stoney about how they evaded the law. I wasn't certain how he'd responded. How did they evade the law? So well? I've heard several stories of how they did things specifically. And if you don't want to talk about it, can we get dropped off. I'm not doing anything illegal as far as what you can see. But if you sit there and wait on me, you're not gonna see me again. Is that ain't where I'm coming out? And you don't know where my guns at? So they had guns hidden in the woods. I'm not sure that there's not some still hid in the woods, and I don't know where they're at. That was their secret, as they had people drop them off, and they had guns hid in the woods most of the time. Yeah, here's Andy with some more intel on one of their tricks. It was a game clay and you know, and I don't mean it's bad, but lid he'll he'd lived for that, he'd lived for that challenge, he lived for that. I'll beat you at your game deal, you know, I know, I know this for a fact. He would take his he'd take his little Toyota pick up over there had birth of all. He would drop it off on parking right on the side of the road because he knew they'd be sitting on it. And he'd be ten milesle mari turkey, you know, because I mean they're going to set on it, you know, and he'd be he'd be someplace completely out of the country, someplace else. Yeah, and and the and the thing. Well, and that's the reason it goes back to, you know, the birth of Bless your hearts. She she got to drop him off a lot, and she dropped him off here, and he'd say, you pick me up there at noon. He kind of put it in the game. Wardens faces though that he was an outlaw. Yes, with Louis Delle, it's a game. There was no real ill intent, at least not the way I interpreted Louis Dale. A lot of people, a lot of wardens, a lot of law enforcement officers. They took it very personal that supposedly, here's this man, he's out here just slaughtering the turkey's left and right, and uh flaunting it in our face. But Louis Delle he never hurt my feelings. It was a game to him, you know, catch me if you can. And he bested the best of us, and we never caught him. Why do you think he's like that? That's just Louisdale. Turns out Jimmy and Louis Dell both like coffee. Here's an entry Steen story. Well, every preseason and that we'd start like in March, late February, word March, we'd beut working priests at what coffree seasoned turkey hunt and uh, every now and then I'd run into Louis Dale. He'd always say, hey, Jimmy, we got in coffee. I'm sure he was thirsty. Had here he has at you. You never caught him with a game, but he'd be coming in all the woods. But it got to the point where I was eating and finding him so frequent I wound up making an extrapolot thermus a coffer to go with me, so you know, had mine in me and Loui Delle. We might sat there and drink half of thermis coffin between us and the latter part of the when I was working. He got to where he's kind of hard hearing, and you hear a bird, Jimmy, and he's using me for I guess there's a sounding boards, just trying to spot turkey for it. So you're sitting there drinking coffee with him and you're hearing birds and he's asking you if you heard it. He can't get a beat on it, right that that's classic. What what did you talk about with him when you're sitting there and you're you know that he's doing something illegal? Well, we didn't dwell on the illegal hunting part. He I mean, he knew if I caught him parents Square, he's gonna get a ticket. And he knew in his own mind I wasn't gonna catch him because he don't told me that, and if he tells you, he's gonna do it. But we we talked about a lot of stuff, how things used to be back and was growing up, kids and grandkids and his life and was solved all the world's problem back there on those country room. Did you enjoy seeing him? If you saw Louis Delle walking down the road, that no problem at all. It's like, oh home week. So I mean you you would you would have enjoyed that I had to. I mean, I knew the man. He wasn't the enemy, not at all. It's just it's just Louidy. I grew up with him and all the Edwards. Now, could that have clouded your ability to catch him? I don't think. I don't see how it could because of I mean, I'm not saying you would have led him off if you knew something, But do you think that was part of their stick into getting away, was just kind of being likable and and befriending some of the people that were after him. I don't think so. I don't see how that really, how that would have affected it. I tried, I really wanted that steak dinner. We'll learn that the Edwards brothers could be intimidating and downright rough in some situations. I asked him, though, if he ever felt intimidated by him. You know, it's like if I wrote Louis Delle a ticket, he's not going to try to get back at me for that. If now, if I had written him a ticket and it was uncalled for a chicken when you were a ticket, then you but you know, he's gonna he might go out and kill double the amount of turkeys. You didn't do Charlie or Louis Delle wrong, But you didn't you. I wasn't afraid of them, and and and they're the kind that, uh, you don't mess with in the wrong. Wrong, you don't wrong them. I can't say it on any nice way on radio. No, it's just crap on them. They're gonna crap on you. Yeah, you treat them right, and they're gonna treat right even if you're writing them a ticket. If you treat them in the right way, everything's gonna go down just great. They weren't that intimidating. They're not. They didn't try to force their way out of a situation. And you know this, quit following me as a game warden or we're gonna get even with you know, none of that would ever happened. They don't do people that way, you know. Charlie and Luda, if I if I told him I needed anything at all, they would do it, whether I'm law enforcement or not. That's just the way they work. They were good. They were good people. They really work. Yeah, that's the That's the interesting part of this whole story is that they were these pretty notorious outlaws, but then they were also like I had, I had a hard time finding people that were willing to talk about them because they were afraid it was gonna make them look bad. You know, It's like, wait a minute, these guys, you know, why are you defending the character of these you know, these these poachers. That's the that's the that's the way a lot of people were. Why do you think people were so loyal to them, Well, they're not Claude Dallas if you know that name from out West, I don't. He wanted killed two game wardens out and I think it was Idaho. Loud On Charlie. They're not gonna be violent against you. There was a romanticism of for some folks. When I started on as a game fish officer, you lose most of your friends. The people that I grew up with, hunted and fished with. That's the last thing they wanted to see was me coming up their driveway, especially in that game and fish truck. Louie and Charlie, they weren't like that. I'd have gone to their house many times on complaints. People have filed a complaint on them for one reason or another, and I would just pull it up in the driveway and we sit on the front porch and talk about it. Me trying to get down to the bottom of the situation. Is you know what the facts were on it. I was never intimidated having to drive up their driveway, whereas some of the kids I went to school with it might be a little bit different, and didn't have to worry about them. Yeah, and I can always I didn't have to walk backwards to my truck. I can always turn around when I left their house and just walk back to my truck normally because I knew I was nothing was going to happen to you. Yeah, that's that's I think. I see what you're saying. And I guess you chased some guys that you wouldn't have done that with. I mean you chase, you chase some guys that work, straight up criminals that would cut the tires or worse than that. But Charlie and Louisdelle, they were they were down to, down to the earth folks they worked for. When they worked, they worked hard, and when they played, they played hard, and a lot of people respected them for that. Louis Delle liked Jimmy and treated him with respect. Interestingly, in the nineteen eighties. Well, Jimmy Martin was working as a police officer. He was shot three times in the d Uy traffic stop. He had reason not to trust folks, but he trusted the Edwards. However, if you crossed them or for some reason they didn't like you, anything was on the table. Here's Stoney with a story of an interaction with the game warden that Louis Dell didn't get along with. It's important to know that it is legal to run dogs for deer in many parts of Arkansas. Well, we were running dogs, which you know, we're right on the game refuge line here, and uh, we had dogs over in the game refuge. Well, Uncloudel's over trying to catch him, and he's got his rifle. He ain't gonna leave it. Laying Sam was one of uncloud El's good deer dogs. But nobody catch him. But uncloud El know's it any strangers around that dog would stay out there. It's already forty yards. Nobody's gonna get close. And uh, Kenneth had stopped Uncloodell and looked at his license and cheered on him about having dog was in the game refuge. Uncluta said, I ain't getting on dogs in the game. Refuge, Well, whose dog is at look? Luta said, I don't know. It ain't mine and they had his collar on it. I mean, he knew it was his dog. He was over to get him, but he knew Kenneth couldn't catch him. Of course, Uncluda and Kenneth didn't get along. I mean just personality clash. They wouldn't have got along if they had have been met somewhere else. But Kenneth he just looked at Uncluta and he went to pull his pistol and he said, we'll find out whose dog it is, and Unclude cocked his rifle and the dog he was gonna kill the dog look at the collar, and Unclude just helped his rifle up there and cocked nemor. He said that dog dies, so do you. And Kenneth said, well, I thought it wasn't your dog, and he said, I don't give it. You ain't killing a dog in front of me. And it all ended right there. Kenneth and then went out in their truck left Unclude I loaded dog that went home. Wow, how how does the how does how does the law respond to that? Because I think maybe it was just from a different time, because today, you point your gun to a law enforcement guy, you're either gonna get shot, I'm gonna go to jail. Right, But let me ask you this, if the law enforcement guy is breaking the law, who's in the right right Because by today's law, him shooting that dog would be a felony. So it's almost like there was some backwoods justice going on there between both of them, right, I mean, it's, uh, you're just not gonna do it, you know, And so nothing was ever said about it. No. Man. See that's interesting because and I think that does show you kind of I mean, it's like Bow and Luke Duke. You know, I fought the law and the law lost. That's a pretty wild interaction. And I realized that that's just one side of that story. But we do know for sure it was a different time. If that happened today, things probably would have been different. Probably there's been several statements about them evading the law, but that actually didn't always happen. Jimmy never caught him, but as you'll see in the next podcast, we'll learn they actually got caught a couple of times a long time before Jimmy. Here's one time when Louis del caught himself. We were over on the headboard camp and of course man Uncle Adhill is coming back into camp and Terry Lunsford was parked in the road for his service first law enforcement, and Joe Lyles was game warden anyway, and I like both men, but anyway, uncleod Hell being unclood Hill, he gets out and we're talking Terry and Uncle Adell said, well, I guess you better check our license. And Terry said, no, this is at your dear camp. No, this is on the hood of Terry S. Trump. So just y'all, y'all are just coming back in the road. Okay, So it's a roadblock, right, Well, it wasn't really a roadblock. Terry was just pulled over and we pulled up to talk to him, and we got out and everybody's leaning on the hood, you know, talking. There's four guys standing there talking, and then Joe Lyles pulled up, so all five of us is talking and Uncle lud El stayed on Terry. Oh you're gonna check license. He said, Now, I didn't buy these things for nothing, and he's pulling his bill fold out and Terry's like, well, I don't need to see your license. I know you know well, Uncle Ludel don't have one. All the rest of us has got ours out there. And he turned bright red, I mean bright red, and went to cussing. And then the first thing, the next thing popped out of his mouth was I can't believe Bertsa didn't buy that. Lame threw Bertha right out of the bus. And then Terry just looked at Joe and he said, ain't you right in this ticket? Because neither one of them wanted to have to deal with the aftermath. You know, it wasn't that he was gonna get revenged, but he was gonna be mad at whoever wrote that ticket. Forever you wrote me a ticket. And I think Joe finally wrote the t of course uncle a Layer said that's only why he was ever gonna catch me. After doing some checking, it was actually Terry Lunsford that wrote the ticket. Here's Jimmy with his honest thoughts on the Edwards reputation. But a lot of louis Dale was bravado. You'd see in a restaurant and people would get to talk about turkey hunting. Who they'll like to brag and he you know, he might not have killed near as many turkeys as people as he put out to be doing. I don't I don't think you did that. At one time he had a big ring of turkey beards, but we don't know how long it's been collecting those beards. Yeah, a lot of bravado. The turkey beard thing came from back when he was arrested for a moonshining. Moonshining? Did he just say that Louis Delle got caught for moonshining? Man? There is not enough time in a single Bear Grease episode to even scratch the surface with these Edwards boys. You'll have to wait for part two of this podcast to hear the moonshining story. And it's a good one. If they killed half of what they got credit for, there wouldn't be any game left in polk Anning. So you think a lot of their reputation, Oh, I just got it. I'm sure they did kill more than their share, but it just got blown plumb out of proportionate the myth. It created a myth, and it just carried on and on and on. Louis Dell Charlie, they you know you're talking about the numbers of the killing thirty and forty birds in a season. They did not waste any meat. So if they killed thirty birds, either their fraser was plumb full of turkey, they gave away a lot, because you know, there's no way one family is gonna eat thirty turkeys. And if they did give away that mean other than the word would have gotten out. But if they did kill that men, they surely didn't waste it. What makes you say that? How do you know that? Because I know them, I know how they were raised and how they grew up and how they taught their kids. Yeah, it's just the way. That's the way it was when we grew up. You didn't waste that meat back then. It's precious. Yeah, they were good folks. I don't care how many times I gotta say it. I'll chase and I would write them today if they were still, you know, if we were still back in that situation, and they would know it. But they're gone. Yeah, here's Stoney on the big picture of his dad and uncle being outlaws. How do you feel about your dad and uncle being outlaws like that? And how would you be today? You gotta look at it this way, there's very few deer when they're younger. You're not allowed to kill a dough. By putting that restriction on, their chances of seeing one period were nearly void anyway. And then you see one, Oh that's a dough I can't shoot it. Well, that was a hard rule to follow. It was an impossible rule to follow when you know you've got family at home that need that meat. You know, you've heard old West stories of the guy went and killed somebody's cow and took it home. That was the only way he had to feed his family at the time, so he did it. Nowadays, I can't hold with a whole lot of it, and my uncle couldn't either. My dad couldn't either. At the last, there's a point where we have enough. So you saw that inside of them. I mean, so there was a time I mean when they were killing that many turkeys, kind of in their prime. I mean, they weren't they had plenty of money. I mean, they weren't wealthy, but they so they weren't killing turkeys just to feed the f It was kind of a remnant of a time past. But then they got in their old age where they weren't and I'm gonna say that because you know, when they were in their mid thirties, the only Christmas we had is from what they killed coon hunt their coon hides. Dad uncloud On made thirty five hundred in one month coon hunting. Of course, hides were twenty five and thirty five dollars apiece, but they were They weren't working in the day at all. They got up in the evening, we came home, went to bed, got up, went hunting every single night, seven days a week, all winter long. If they did, we're still up the next morning. You know, they'd get up. They'd go turkey hunter, or they'd go kill deer, or they may have killed a deers that night while they were con I mean, the work was very scarce that they were doing, and that was it. I guess it was later in their life that they kind of did pretty well for them. So, I mean Louis Dell uncloud El, he he did pretty well all the way through. Dad Unclodil married one woman and was married to her for fifty something years. Dad married six. I didn't know that, Okay, so Charlie had six wives. I'll be dared. I didn't know that. Dad made little fortunes and lost them all along the way, unclood un married one and made a fortune and managed to build it up as far as they're thinking, when if they needed it, they were gonna go get it. And you know, and I would be the same way today, but I can't see a scenario where I would need it. Here's Andy telling why he misses Charlie and Louis Dell. There's great folks. I mean I miss him. I mean, you just you just got to miss people like that because they're just so, they're just so. I mean sure, I mean, you're gonna get the same thing every time. I mean, you're not gonna get any And Blue Deal was loud. God, he's coming up there in the office, and I shut my door. Of course everybody in the office heard it. You know, he comed up there. I mean, this might be the fifth of March. He had two beards in his pocket more. And you know he'd leave there and go to the holiday house and tell him the same thing. I mean in front. I mean he didn't, I mean, it did not, It did not bother him. Just unbelievable. Isn't it ironic that these notorious outlaws were such respected and beloved people. Obviously they had enemies too, and I'm certain there are unflattered in stories about them, like there would be about all of us. Me telling the story of the Edwards brothers is clearly not condoning breaking game laws. And let me say, whoever is without sin, let him cast the first stone. Times have changed for the better. Today, obeying game laws is the norm, and if you break them, you will be caught and severely punished. Game laws keep wildlife populations healthy. We love game laws today. The cool kids obey game laws. That's just the way it is. The prime of these guys operation was simply a different time. It was a different mentality. So why did I tell the story in a day of extreme polarization of things either being black or white, someone is either a criminal or a saint. You've either been accepted or you've been canceled. It seems to me like we could judge people with a little more nuance. If we were all judged by our worst day, we'd all be in trouble. The Edwards story is extremely intriguing and complex, and my personal take home for Clay Nucom has to do with the certainty of the Edwards brothers identity. They could have taught a master class on functionalizing a strong identity. And I'm not saying it was healthy or constructive, but they didn't take cues about themselves from sources deemed irrelevant, and there in lies the issue with many of us. It was noteworthy to me that over and over and over people said they were genuine. Well, aren't we all trying to be genuine? Or have most of us taken on an identity that's a facade. Wouldn't it be wild if it took a couple of outlaws from Arkansas to help us see what it means to be a genuine human. It's just a thought, It's just something to think about. On the next episode, we're gonna continue to hear stories about Louis Dell and Charlie. There just isn't enough time in this thing, and we're gonna tell about the time they got busted for making illegal moonshine and how earlier in their lives they actually did get busted by the game and fish Man, it's gonna be good. Thanks so much for listening to Bear Grease. Share this podcast with the most law abiding person you know this week and see what they think. Leave us to comment on iTunes and we'll see you next week. On the Bear Grease written