00:00:14 Speaker 1: My name is Clay Knucomb, and this is a production of the bear Grease podcast called The bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast. Brought to you by Tokova's Boots. I'm a cowboy boot man and I've been wearing to Covis for years. The most comfortable boot I've ever put on. Good boots for good times. Welcome to the bear Grease Render. This is we're deep into the bear Grease Civil War summer as it's been deemed by Misty, which is long time coming from me. Learn a lot about the Civil War and it's been really powerful. We have two distinguished guests, quite distinguished. 00:01:08 Speaker 2: You're welcome America. 00:01:10 Speaker 3: I'm here. 00:01:11 Speaker 1: We'll we'll, we'll go counterclock clockwise. We have doctor mister Nukelem, welcome, thank you, great to see you. 00:01:17 Speaker 4: When you say counterclockwise, actually clockwise, well, I usually opposite order. 00:01:25 Speaker 1: I try to introduce a mystery guest, doctor mister Neukelem, doctor Josh Lambridge, Spilmaker. 00:01:32 Speaker 2: I'm working on it. I'm working on it. 00:01:35 Speaker 1: And then we have a guy who's been here before, Ben Lagron, who is uh. 00:01:41 Speaker 2: He's only got a master's degree. 00:01:43 Speaker 1: Master Ben LaGrone, I like, now, Ben, you you have some history street cred though I am. 00:01:50 Speaker 5: I am you know you call this Civil War summer, right, So I'm such a nerd that I remember as a kid every time July and it was getting hot, thinking it's really hot, but it could be worse. I could be wearing a wool uniform in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania fighting from my life, that is, because that's just when we were how old since I can remember. Wow, So that's my frame of reference to make myself feel better about hot summers. At least I'm not fighting in the Civil War in the middle of summer. 00:02:21 Speaker 1: So Gettysburg was in July. 00:02:23 Speaker 5: Yeah, July first to third sixty three. 00:02:26 Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, it's a really specific, like mental coping device. 00:02:31 Speaker 5: Yeah, but that's good. 00:02:33 Speaker 4: Some things about you been. 00:02:36 Speaker 1: Well, that's what I meant. You got some bona fides when it comes to history. 00:02:40 Speaker 5: Yeah. 00:02:41 Speaker 1: What I was actually talking about was that you used to teach history. 00:02:45 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's irrelevant, it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant. Yeah, Yeah, I taught history, and so I love some war. 00:02:51 Speaker 1: Yes, well, great to have you been lagrown And then a various thing distinguished guests. I was gonna say it distinguished. He is not extinguished. We can go on at all. He is on fire. 00:03:06 Speaker 2: Somebody get the fire extinguisher because he is on fire. 00:03:09 Speaker 1: This is Jeff Shreeve heard of him known as JB. Shrive too many and uh, Jeff is my brother in law. 00:03:18 Speaker 4: What disclosures. 00:03:20 Speaker 1: Jeff is misty. 00:03:21 Speaker 3: It's out there. 00:03:22 Speaker 4: It's out there. 00:03:23 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Jeff has a no idea, very a wonderful history. You've got a couple of podcasts. Tell me about your podcast. 00:03:31 Speaker 3: It's basically all combined now Jbshreeve dot com. It's all right there. It's uh targeted towards believers Christians. But we look at current events, we look at history. Just try to The tagline is faith intelligent, faith based perspectives, so believers can make sense of the world they live in. 00:03:48 Speaker 1: But you do a lot of history stuff. Oh yeah, we're. 00:03:52 Speaker 3: Neck deep in ah look at American history going back to one hundred and fifty years, a two hundred and fifty year story. 00:03:58 Speaker 1: Yes, so it's and you're a real history buff Like what got us going on you being here today is we were I told you about a couple of episodes we had done. Yeah, and you've you've very well read on the on the Civil War. 00:04:11 Speaker 3: I remember when the Civil War summer was just going to be three episodes. 00:04:15 Speaker 1: You've been you've been listening that long. You remember when it was just three episodes. 00:04:21 Speaker 3: Well, it was planned to be three episodes episode one, like we're gonna do three of these maybe, And now it's like we're just going and going. 00:04:29 Speaker 1: Keep going. Well, Jeff, you're in the Ta Covis hot seat. Oh yeah, as you can tell by the boots on your chair. And uh, both you and Ben are going to get a gift card from Takovis that you could get a cool shirt like I've got or I got, or you could buy your wife pair of boots like Misty's got. We're really proud of our too, COVID. 00:04:49 Speaker 2: You could buy me a parently. 00:04:50 Speaker 1: You know, there's there's a place where you like, don't I mean in this in the field that we're in. Sometimes you you know, like promoting stuff is like the fun stuff that people come for. But like I'm pumped that sponsors this podcast. 00:05:05 Speaker 3: Pump. Yeah, so you lluyed me in the Civil War, but you had me with Chakhova. 00:05:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, well and they look what they sent us today. Yeah, this is pretty branding irons for boots. That's a meat eater logo. 00:05:24 Speaker 2: Yep. 00:05:24 Speaker 1: So so we'll take a propane torch and heat it up super hot. 00:05:29 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm not wearing pants right on the cap. 00:05:35 Speaker 3: Ben's wearing the shorts. 00:05:36 Speaker 4: So you can get to. 00:05:37 Speaker 5: Clarify for those. 00:05:44 Speaker 1: Choice that you guys have in this is which brand do you want? The meat brand of the bear grease both? 00:05:50 Speaker 3: Oh so yeah, I left right, left, right there, you go. 00:05:53 Speaker 4: Let me let me see. 00:05:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that cool? 00:05:55 Speaker 2: Where would you put that pretty slick? Just put it anywhere? Put on the heat my to. 00:05:59 Speaker 1: Cova's boots branded with my initials, like right on the heel right there. 00:06:03 Speaker 2: Or you could put it up on the on the shank of them. 00:06:06 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah yeah I like that. 00:06:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we could we could brand yours Mistine Okay, yeah, that'd be great. Nice. I also wanted to just a couple of heading off a couple of things at the past. Right at the top. This is the h O Sage orange orange acorn grunner. Very so this is Phelps grunting deer car. It's July man, it's time to start thinking about deer hunting. Yep, it really is. 00:06:34 Speaker 4: And uh, I wish Bear was here because Bear is passionate about the osage orange. 00:06:38 Speaker 1: Yeah. So what made me think of it was when we first made the acorn grunner, we used white oak, and so the first run was white oak, and then we made them a crylic, which we still do, which is like an indestructible plastic essentially that that it's that it is like machined out of this piece of crylic. But this is my favorite one. It's Osa George with a little burnt finish on it. And won't get this is an inhale exhale dough bleat buck grunt call, and uh it's it's a deer hunter's call. That's what I call it because when I'm deer hunting, I want to be able to call at a dough deer and have her come in. And in the early season they really respond to bleats. You can call in a buck during the rut with a bleat. A lot of guys just carry a grunt call. I like to have a dough bleat and a buck grunt, and this acorn grunner is a way to go. 00:07:34 Speaker 4: Is that is it o sage orange? Is that a tree that would be common. 00:07:39 Speaker 1: Across the Yeah, in many places in the kind of the southeast, the upper South, in the Midwest there's probably there's probably osage all across the South too, but it's also in the Midwest, Okay, So yeah, I. 00:07:52 Speaker 4: Was just wondering if people, if people in the Northwest would know what we were, what we were talking about when we said in George Osa. 00:07:59 Speaker 1: George has has had a multi century marketing campaign. They've been heavily marketed, first by the Native Americans, then by Bill, then by others Instagram, but the George it actually started with it was the first Native Americans were making bows out of it. But then the French came and called it bow dark Boy's day arc. I don't know what does that mean. Bo dark means. 00:08:27 Speaker 2: Uh, French. 00:08:30 Speaker 1: Wood of the bow, bow wood, I see, yeah, because they came here and they saw Native Americans making bows out of os George and it's uh, it's it's one of the most impressive woods on the continent. That's density strength. I planned, Jeff, listen to this. This is some brother in law stuff that we need to talk about. I redid my mailbox, which I mean might be something you might consider too, and wou hey, if we did it in Osa George, I'd get excited about it. I cut Os George two Osa George posts. I actually made a mailbox for the whole neighborhood. 00:09:13 Speaker 4: I actually think we should kind of go back and tell a little bit of the backstory on this. 00:09:18 Speaker 1: Well I don't even know is there much of a backstory. 00:09:20 Speaker 4: Well, we got a notice from our mail person the neighborhood did that our our roads mailbox was too rough and they would stop delivering like in thirty days if we didn't change it. Wow, no one took action. It was an exercise of collective inaction. 00:09:40 Speaker 1: Or our mailboxes. It's like a country road where all the mailboxes are the people that live on the road or on this you know this, this lengthy platform, elevated platform. And I mean the short version of the story is who came to the rescue of this haller. 00:09:56 Speaker 4: And who was very proud of that. 00:09:59 Speaker 1: This guy and I went and cut two big Os Jordan staves And when I put him in the ground, I knew that they would outlive me. I mean, they will, They'll stay on the ground for fifty to seventy years before they rot. 00:10:13 Speaker 3: So it's an actual tree that you planning for your boy. 00:10:16 Speaker 2: No, no, he just cut it. He just cut like a fence post. 00:10:20 Speaker 1: The fence post and then built this platform. You should look at it on the way. 00:10:23 Speaker 4: Oh it's a work of art. And he was proud of it. He sent me pictures, and our neighbors were proud of it. Several of them wrote and said thank you. They were very very plait like. None of us were like, oh, they're not going to stop delivering our boundy, and that's kind of how we all thought. But they did, in fact stop delivering our mail. So Clay went out there and he was super proud of it. And every time someone talks about it to me, they're like, hey, till Clay thinks. We saw him out there working on the thing. And I was like, oh, no, you should call him. 00:10:48 Speaker 1: You should call him yourself. Driving by slow it host to traffic jam. That looks good jam. All the old men around were coming over and just like, man, what are you doing George? Stay boy, it'll be there a long time. 00:11:02 Speaker 4: He kind of was the talk of the family chat for a while, you know, And proud of it. 00:11:07 Speaker 1: It's been a long time ago. 00:11:08 Speaker 4: Mainly Clay. You know, he was the main person sitting in that house there. 00:11:12 Speaker 2: It was like six months ago. Jeff's really noticed it every time he's come by. 00:11:17 Speaker 1: Well, what we could do is take out my mailbox staves and make a custom run over grunners. 00:11:26 Speaker 2: We'll do that in fifty to seventy years. Good look, yeah, yeah, So what have you been doing today, Clay Man? 00:11:36 Speaker 1: I have I forgot what an intoxicant it was. He is going to be bulldozer. 00:11:41 Speaker 4: He's going to be unbearable. 00:11:42 Speaker 1: I actually wrote a song about it one time. But yeah, I've been on a I've been on Kamatsu fifty one for about six hours, five hours today. 00:11:51 Speaker 4: How long do you have it for? How many hours do you get to this forty? He's got forty hours he's going to be spending. I've texted with all the kids. This is like apex life experience for Clay Newcombe to get to be on a bulldozer, and I've just kind of resigned myself. He's doing hard work, good work that I want done, but he will be unbearable for for about a week, just just the thrill, the the adrenaline rush, the high of being on a bulldozer and feeling that much power all day long. 00:12:23 Speaker 2: He's have you ever done it, missy? Have you ever done it? 00:12:26 Speaker 4: No, but I have. There is talk of me getting to. 00:12:28 Speaker 5: Push somebody operating it. 00:12:33 Speaker 2: There is a high that comes with operating heavy equipment. Yeah, yeah, it is a I feel. 00:12:38 Speaker 4: So powerful when I say I'm bearable, I'm not judging. I'm like, I'm willing to take it like it's. 00:12:43 Speaker 2: There's a connotation of the word unbearable. 00:12:45 Speaker 4: Well, I get you. I hear what you're saying. I'm just saying I just know like this is going to put Clay in a position. I hope he can bear the weight of the burden that's on him right now. 00:12:56 Speaker 2: We'll see, we'll see where the humility versus the the adrenaline. 00:12:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, what I'm not good at I'm good at pushing stuff over real good. I'm not great at keeping it smooth, because you know, you push over a big tree. I'm not pushing over big trees. I'm pushing over medium size locusts osae, orange and cedar that have grown up. It's a pretty interesting study on the successionary plants of this region. But if you just take a if your front yard, Jeff, that you mow with a lawnmower, if you didn't mow it for one hundred years, just let it go. The first stage of succession would be locus osa George cedar, eastern red cedar, sassafras per simmon like these. 00:13:47 Speaker 3: How long would it take to get those? 00:13:49 Speaker 1: You would get those within two or three years. The sprouts would pop up. 00:13:53 Speaker 3: We're working on it. 00:13:56 Speaker 1: And then if you let that go for thirty years, you'd have what I have over here. 00:14:01 Speaker 2: When was the last time that was clear? 00:14:02 Speaker 1: Do you think My neighbor, who's very closely watching what I'm doing, has told me that thirty years ago it was a bermuda pasture just like his. Really, this is really beautiful, and he said it looked just like my place. Really, it's pretty interesting, just how quickly the natural world takes over something. Yeah, you know. So, so there's the power is is what do you take? What do you leave? Because there is some nice walnut that is from that secondary growth. Yeah, so I'm keeping that, but we are well. Bar Newcomb is a bird's out of town today. But if you haven't checked looked at his YouTube channel. You should. He's got he's got some good. 00:14:52 Speaker 3: Wildly entertaining when he's making that foe. I know this is a couple of months ago, was that os George? 00:14:57 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah. 00:14:59 Speaker 2: I turn on the videos a lot of times when I just sit down and eat lunch or something, and I'm just captivated. Yeah. 00:15:06 Speaker 4: A lot of a lot of my friends with young kids, their kids are watching them, and that's like, you know, just entertainment for for young people. I think that's pretty good entertainment. 00:15:17 Speaker 2: I met this little boy in the in the chiropractor. I think I may have mentioned it. Met him in the chiropractor the other day, and he's world's biggest Bear Grease fan. He's I think he's five six years old, maybe six years old, and his name is Gus. And I saw him again the other day and they've just been eating up at Bear Grease content. 00:15:34 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, nice. 00:15:38 Speaker 1: Nice. Well we are we could continue to small talk. We could we could start, you know, as they say, big talk, yeah start, yeah. 00:15:53 Speaker 2: Can you can you clarify what they say? 00:16:00 Speaker 1: We are here to talk about the American Civil War. So the first episode that we did talked about the causes of the Civil War. Second episode was about Lincoln and Robert E. Lee, these two players that played roles in the Civil War. Third one was about why men fought and it basically we highlighted the cherokeys that fought. 00:16:26 Speaker 3: And is that the one where he surprised you with your family tree? 00:16:30 Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, yes, that was cool. 00:16:34 Speaker 4: The way he surprised him. 00:16:35 Speaker 1: Yeah, Jeff, do you have any When I started this, it's pretty intimidating to do an episode on the Civil War. It's just so big. Any commentary on the sometimes mysty's like played. The way that you do stuff is just completely backwards. Some lives are four and to me, it just makes perfect sense the way that we've done this anyway, the progression of the series. Like you're a podcaster, you're you're a writer. 00:17:05 Speaker 3: Boy, I'm enjoying it. I mean, I've been enjoying the way you get into it. I like to debate, you know. As I listened to him while I run and like I had to make sure this. I'm just tell him, Josh, I wasn't sure if this was video or podcast because I just threw everything audio. So I listened to him while I'm running, and I think about what they're saying. It's like, well, maybe this, maybe that, but I've been enjoying just the progression of it all so far. 00:17:28 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, what did you said? You had some thoughts on Thomas Jefferson. 00:17:36 Speaker 3: On Thomas Jefferson, Oh boy, do I got thoughts on Thomas Jefferson. 00:17:40 Speaker 1: Because the question that came up in the first episode was, this is the guy that wrote the Declaration of Independence, And we went back all the way to the dec Declaration and how I had kind of made a caveat for slavery, but yet it talked about the equality of all men, and then Thomas Jefferson had owned slaves. 00:18:01 Speaker 3: Yeah, so Jefferson, then you back me up, make me look smart, correct everything that I'm doing wrong here, but do it in a nice way. But Jefferson, he would say things like he was all about image. In my mind, when I look at Jefferson, the more I read about him, the less I like him, because when you dig down into his life, it's like, ah, this guy says these nice words, and then you look behind the scenes and it's like just a lot of the not nice way of hypocrisy. Just it doesn't line up his actions. Do not line up with what he says. And one of the things I've learned is there's two if you take politics and he divide him in half. There's realist and idealist, right, two different schools of thought. The idealist and you would put like Jefferson in that camp. To me Rousseau, who out of France, you know, with the Enlightenment, who he was heavily influenced by. You would also, going on down the line further in history, you'd put someone like Marx, Karl Marx, the founder of communism or one of the founders of communism, Guys like that, where they're all about painting this high vision and they don't expect you to necessarily hit it all all right. They don't like the idea of hypocrisy. That's not really the point. It's about putting this big thing out there, and you know, weoul just trib for it. And they're about more about tearing things down than they are about building things up, so they're tearing down power structures. People would say, like Marxist theory comes out of there. Then on the other side you've got the realist and that would be folks like John Adams and during with the founding father's generation. I'm Edmund Burke out of the British parliamentary parliamentary school of thought. Guys who you can't be all pineing the sky. You got to have realistic applications, and they do that. And so there's two different frames of thought. And so when it comes to those political theories, and so when I look at Jefferson, I would fall more along the lines of a realist. It's like, you got to do what you say, you. 00:19:50 Speaker 1: Know, Wait, he was He wasn't. 00:19:52 Speaker 3: He was not. And in his mind what I see when I read his writings, what he said and then what he actually did, it's kind of like that was It's okay in his mind. I mean, Rousseau wasn't thinking I've got to get all this accomplished now. He was thinking, I've got to tear down the power structures that would prevent these good things from happening. And that's the way he would put it out and. 00:20:10 Speaker 1: Kind of let someone else do it. Yeah, you gave me an example, you said, Carl Marx like lived with his mom or something. 00:20:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was like a drunk. He's a drunk. He was not a very good human being at all. He basically had to live off of his family's dollar just to get all these writings out. And then there's all sorts of chaos that resulted from the stuff that he did, Right, But he's putting something out there that had good pieces to it. You know, we've seen a lot of bad stuff from it, but he's basically saying, hey, you got to treat the workers more fairly, and that was what he contributed to the equation. Would you agree with this, Ben? 00:20:46 Speaker 2: Yeah? 00:20:46 Speaker 5: Yeah. And I've not studied Jefferson as in depth as people like Washington and some other family brothers. But when I look at those guys, they recognized that they were born into a system that was very big and intimidating, even if they didn't agree with certain aspects of it. And so it's and I thought the episode is did a good job of painting that picture for some of those guys. I think I can't remember who. Maybe it was JD that brought up like cobalt mining, right. I mean, if you really want to dig into the atrocities that go into not just your cell phone, but getting electric cars and more lithium out, you will ask the question, what am I doing to stop this? I'm literally propagating and I'm going I'm buying. I'm actually contributing to it almost daily. Lithium batteries are a big part of my life, like yours in anyone's well speak for yourself. Yeah, so yeah, I think those guys, like Jeff said, they they're priority. It's more about priority versus beliefs. And those guys were politicians, and they had priorities that superseded whatever moral beliefs that they had. And no one can go back and know every deep inner thought that they had about it all, but there is enough evidence that they just there was a lot of things that they did they weren't necessarily comfortable with, just like I'm not super comfortable with all the lithium in our world. 00:22:15 Speaker 1: That's but a smartphone. 00:22:18 Speaker 5: I made a choice. 00:22:19 Speaker 1: Yeah, or yes? 00:22:21 Speaker 3: Or Bear's big example, you know, I think it was last week's and maybe the week before the environmental stuff. Yes, that's a perfect example. It's like that fits perfectly because I do all sorts of stuff. On hundred years from now, I'll probably think what a horrible man. 00:22:33 Speaker 4: Monster plastic spoon? Yeah, pictures of you? 00:22:37 Speaker 1: Yeah, I have I have a thing that I say is that they will look back at pictures of our kid's birthday parties and we'll see us using single use plastic utensils, and they will go, how was my grandfather was such? He was so nice to his family, he was, you know, good with this and that. But how could he have done it? It's I mean, that's quite different than human bondage. 00:23:06 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very very important to say that. 00:23:09 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's fascinating to me how we can look back in history and see the flaws inside of people, yeah, and try to reconcile it. And then yeah, here we are today using lithium batteries in our phones. 00:23:29 Speaker 3: Yeah. And like George Washington, like he wanted to he knew slavery was wrong, and like when he died, he wanted to free all of his slaves. That was the plan. And yet at the same time, when a lot of his slaves ran away during the Revolutionary War, they ran and fought for the British because the British made this deal, if you'll come fight for us, we're going to free all the slaves. He went looking for them for years after the battle was won. When the terms of surrender were done, he says. Hey also I want to get some of these slaves back that have gone and fought for you in the British that we can't do that. And it's some fascinating stories. It's like, you know this is. 00:24:00 Speaker 4: Wrong, but yeah, yeah, I just read about that. 00:24:03 Speaker 3: There is a difference. There is a difference. 00:24:07 Speaker 1: Interesting, Ben, you said that you learned some stuff about your family's Civil War history. 00:24:13 Speaker 5: Yeah, and growing up in my family, you're told this when you're young, but I called my mom earlier to brush up on some details. But it's really fascinating stuff and it ties into the complexity I felt like you touched on in the series about why did people fight on an individual level, not just why politically did the war happen. So my mother's side of the family has a long history over here, the Talbots, and they moved to Massachusetts in like the mid sixteen hundreds, and there's all this history with the Talbots and Massachusetts. I mean, you can go up to Massachusetts. There's books about some of my ancestors, and I have an ancestor buried very close to Alexander Hamilton's. I got all this great history, direct history well in the eighteen thirties. Wait to see what they did this for another. 00:25:05 Speaker 1: Podcast they did they must have done something bad. 00:25:08 Speaker 5: Well just kid, yeah, yeah, yeah. In the eighteen thirties, there was one family that fell on hard times and in eighteen thirty six, you could the government acquired Chickasaw land in Mississippi and branded it. Talking about marketing here with we were talking about earlier with the osage, they branded it as like the last cotton frontier. Go get some cheap land, whether you want it for speculating or plant yourself. And this family grabbed on some of that Chickasaw land and moved down here with all these ties back in Massachusetts. And it was one particular individual, and it was unsure what he actually did with it, because we don't have records of him starting a big plantation and buying slaves. He actually owned a drug store in Memphis, budd he had that land in and his son ended up actually multiple sons ended up fighting in the Civil War. And so before I get to the action, because there's a lot of action, it's always been intriguing to us as a family to study these guys and think, like you literally all of your kin, all of your ties are up in Massachusetts and with you know, you moved down here and within not that long a time you're literally fighting against them, and it's just always been intriguing to us. But I think especially for his kids, they would have grown up in Mississippi, so they wouldn't have like felt that history as strong as he would have. So anyway, a couple of the sons fought Antietam, one of them died, one of them lived, and that is my direct ancestor. And it gets crazier. So his name was Alan Alan Talbot. Yeah, he fought and Antietam and then and I don't remember all the specifics, but basically, like his division of the Mississippian eventually got tied up with Robert E. Lee, and just like there was the Third Arkansas was fought with Lee as well, and so he was in a lot of campaigns under Lee and drove an ambulance at Gettysburg and lived. 00:27:17 Speaker 4: Wow. 00:27:17 Speaker 5: So he literally lived through Antietam, lived through Gettysburg. And he didn't have his kids till after the Civil War, and he had his kids pretty late, so he probably was in maybe his late twenties early thirties when the war started. And then after the war, you know, he survived. He then got married, had like fifteen kids, and so if he would have died in the war, I wouldn't be here. And he's my great great grandfather, and that's pretty rare. I'm thirty eight, twenty twenty six. That's rare to to it's only my great great grandfather. 00:27:52 Speaker 1: It's only two greats. 00:27:53 Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, he was older kids, right exactly, and so were interesting to think about, just like him living through that. 00:28:03 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:28:03 Speaker 1: So this was your your mother's great grandfather exactly. Now she wouldn't have known him though. 00:28:11 Speaker 5: No, but her dad talked about him. 00:28:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it would have been his grandgrandfather. Yeah. Yeah, pretty wild. Okay, lived through Antietam and Gettysburg. 00:28:23 Speaker 3: That's wild. 00:28:23 Speaker 5: And his brother was killed in Antietam and my parents were actually he was killed in the cornfields and my parents got to kind of go to the area that he most likely laid it. 00:28:33 Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, that is interesting. 00:28:35 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:28:36 Speaker 3: Do we have any relatives who find me some more? 00:28:38 Speaker 4: Yes? 00:28:39 Speaker 3: We no, Clay does. 00:28:41 Speaker 4: Well, we haven't. So here's the story I heard. Oh man, I don't really want to tell this on that. 00:28:46 Speaker 3: Well, don't do it because it's always going to be embarrassing. Well, not very good. 00:28:51 Speaker 4: It's that we had a female spy. Oh wow, a female spy and she for the Confederates and she came. And it's one of those things where it is literally written in our genealogy a story about it in a. 00:29:07 Speaker 1: Book about your yeah, yeah, with your maiden name. 00:29:10 Speaker 4: And I heard about it when I was in elementary school and we were we got the genealogy book, shared it with my teacher. We were doing a study on civil war and it was like probably one of the most interesting studies we ever did in elementary social studies because it was a project based and that wasn't popular back then. So we did this project bas thing where we like went to all the wars and there was a big board up on the wall and you would move and when she there was an allowance in the system for someone to be a spy or and like there were two teams. Yeah, I mean, education in the eighties and nineties is pretty. 00:29:48 Speaker 2: Crazy, unhinged. It was unhinged. 00:29:52 Speaker 5: I mean it really was. 00:29:53 Speaker 4: And so this was a decent person teaching our class. But there were two teams, was the Unions and the Confederate And I was on the Union team, but I was unbeknownst to them, actually a spy. And so I would give her my work but wouldn't turn it in in the class until our team would lose. And that was like a. 00:30:15 Speaker 1: Fun Did they tell you to do this or did you just like. 00:30:20 Speaker 4: There was allowance in the system for like, you know, it was like a kid that she brought. 00:30:24 Speaker 1: So when it all was settled, you were you were a spy and they actually knew it. 00:30:29 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I brought my little genealogy book and we all learned an interesting lesson about the Civil War. But yeah, so there was a we had a female spy in there, and that in my lifetime was looked on as like an honorable interesting thing. 00:30:48 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, are you going to tell the story that that was in the book? 00:30:51 Speaker 4: Yeah? So the story in the well, and it always makes it always makes me a little bit nervous because sometimes I feel like people in my family were given to elastic retail telling. 00:31:03 Speaker 1: So I think the way that you would handle this is, say, as the story was. 00:31:09 Speaker 4: Told to me, she took she took some papers, some documents from the union, and they they followed her back to her house and she sat on them. She had you know, she heard the story. Yeah yeah, and she said, and who knows if it's true? And they wanted They looked all over the house. They tore it up, you know, they knew that she had the papers, and they asked her that. They said it could only be underneath you because they've torn up everything else. And she said, a Southern gentleman would never ask me to stand, but I'll stand if you want me to. And they said, never mind, and they left, and that's exactly where they were. She was sitting on them. And so, you know, as it was told to me. But I always have questions about some of the retelling of our family history. 00:31:59 Speaker 1: I think would be pretty interesting to pull people about the stories and their family about the Civil War. I actually have a story about the Civil War that I haven't even mentioned on this episode because I just feel like everybody has this same story, like I just I'm not I don't really know how true it is, okay, And that is that we were on my grandmother's side, her maiden name was Severe, and they were from Tennessee, that we were direct descendants of Stonewall Jackson. 00:32:31 Speaker 4: I don't know that everyone has that story. I didn't know that. 00:32:33 Speaker 1: I just don't have the I actually haven't verified it. But when I was a child, Yeah, my grandmother gave us books on Stonewall Jackson and was like, read this, and she could tell us how you got back there, but I didn't. It's like, I don't know. 00:32:46 Speaker 4: Our our not in our blood lineage, but in our lineage, we're apparently the the Daniel Boone is our ancestors. No, he didn't. 00:32:59 Speaker 1: He actually didn't fight in the Civil War. 00:33:01 Speaker 4: I know, I'm just saying. I just think that's kind of a better, that's kind of a. 00:33:04 Speaker 1: Pretty But the thing is, it's the reason it's interesting is that, like everybody has these these stories of their connection and and they're probably somewhat true. I mean, when you get this far away from something, the genealogy of it, I mean, Stonewall Jackson probably has thousands of descendants. 00:33:26 Speaker 4: You know what's interesting to me. I'm listening we're reading a reading slash listening to Grant's biography on tape right now, and. 00:33:41 Speaker 1: Wen you guys. 00:33:44 Speaker 4: Okay, So so I'm listening to the audible book, and it strikes me how connected people were, Like how many of these people knew each other and and his you know, his dad lived lived with John Brown, and I mean, like there's just all the. 00:34:01 Speaker 1: Country was a lot smaller. 00:34:02 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It seems like when you're reading about the Civil War, you learn about the Civil War, it seems like everything is small. Like the opening battle takes place at this guy's in his pasture. The guy the bull room takes place in his pasture appamatics the courthouse. It's in his kitchen where the surrender is done, and it's like the same guy. It's like, how can that be possible? Like the coincidence is. 00:34:24 Speaker 4: There Long Street? Is it Grant's wedding? Yeah, I mean it's just like NonStop and there's always They're just always kind of running into each other. And as I'm listening to it, we just would not have those kinds of connections. 00:34:37 Speaker 1: The country would have been. I want to say, Josh, can you look up how many people were in America in eighteen sixty five. I want to say it was around it was under fifty million. I think maybe even thirty million. That's what I want to say. But like that's a yeah, small country. I mean, that sounds like a lot of people. But when you start having multi iterations that have interacted with each other. Yeah, it's a it's a smaller group of people. 00:35:05 Speaker 2: Thirty five approximately thirty five million. 00:35:07 Speaker 1: Wow, thirty five millions. So now we have three hunts, so we're ten times as big. 00:35:11 Speaker 4: Now, how many people are in live in New York City today? 00:35:15 Speaker 5: Uh huh metro area. 00:35:20 Speaker 1: More than twelve fifteen. So while we're looking up that stat this episode, when I think about the Civil War, the Emancipation Proclamation is like a big, a big thing. I wanted to learn about it. I really didn't know anything about it. 00:35:39 Speaker 2: Twenty million in the metro area currently twenty. 00:35:41 Speaker 1: Million, so they were you know, yeah, everybody in New York each other. 00:35:45 Speaker 4: I'm not saying everybody knows each other, but that is that it's almost the size of one of our biggest cities. You know, it's two thirds of sizes. 00:35:51 Speaker 2: Bulldozers make him a little snarky. 00:35:52 Speaker 1: I think he's been a. 00:35:53 Speaker 4: Little bit snippy with me today. And I think it's the bulldozer. I think it's the power. This is gonna We're gonna have to be careful, Clay. 00:36:00 Speaker 1: And when I'm out on that machine, it's just me machine and the trees they're going down. 00:36:08 Speaker 4: Well, he better not treat me that way. 00:36:12 Speaker 1: No, no tree with the gravers. The Emancipation Proclamation. Oh that's right, yes, yes, that's what we're talking about. So Brooks, doctor Brooks Blevins was my guest and he's he's one of my favorite historians. Just a great guy, super knowledgeable. He's really the historian of the Ozarks. He is the he's the guy in the Ozarks, but he knows the Civil War really well. He was. He was a fun guest. He'll make an appearance I think in the next episode as well. But what stood out to you guys in the Emancipation Proclamation number four of the Bear Grease Civil War summer? What stood out to you? 00:36:56 Speaker 4: I think for me it's you know, I have a the trical version of history and and so you think about you think about these big documents in terms of Lincoln, you know, wanting to free the slaves, and then you get in there and it's like, no, Lincoln had I mean, and I'm sure he did, Like you know, Brooks says that he he made you know, he migrated towards the abolition side. But really he's trying to hold together a lot of different things, keeping the Europeans from joining forces with the Southerners. He's also navigating this law that gives them jurisdiction as a I mean, we're in the weeds of public policy when we're saying I have no right to pass a law that says that people in the north can't have slaves. But I can say that people who are actually fighting, uh you know these this or that has succeeded, they can Yeah, and I can treat him as as a what was it an war contraband Yeah, I can't remember, but it was. I mean like he really had a brilliant mind to be able to actually use she really was and to be able to pull together all those different all those different pieces. But it isn't theatrical at all. It's not it's not anything like the and it's it's incredible. I mean, it's a huge step and it makes the war about slavery. But to me, it was interesting to hear just all the different backdrop of all the decisions that were made, and it's actually you're walking through this complex little mindfield trying to operate within the bounds of the law, trying to get every the right people on your side. Trying to and in the process making everybody mad in the process. No one is happy with this. The abolitionists weren't happy with it, but it actually did move the war in a very specific direction that that ultimately allows for freedom. But that it took, it took some weaving. 00:38:56 Speaker 1: You know, it's not always it. I think when I first heard all this, I was like, oh, Lincoln may not have been that personally interested in the freedom of the slaves. You know, it appears these political things are there, but there are things in life too where multiple things are true at the same time, and so you know, he it appeared that it was a political move to win the war, but it also felt like in the way that he spoke, which he was a politician, that it really became very deeply meaningful to him. And it just so happened, Hey, this is also going to keep the Europeans out, it's going to give us more soldiers, and it's going to you know, remove the labor force from the South. And I happened to really want to do this from a Cuban level. 00:39:47 Speaker 4: No shade on Lincoln at all in that statement, just recognizing this isn't quite the well. 00:39:54 Speaker 1: That's the shade that I would have thought that. 00:39:56 Speaker 4: Disney version of events that it's super complex, and to me it also it actually shows his brilliance as a as a lawmaker, as a policy It's what I like about Lincoln. 00:40:09 Speaker 3: Like Lincoln as far as like American heroes and stuff like that. I've got a picture of Lincoln hanging in my office. Like I liked Lincoln. He wasn't a perfect man. You know the episode you did on Lincoln. It's like, I agree with all that. He had a lot of nasty statements in there. And that's what politicians have when they're trying to win office. They've got a lot of nasty things they say and do when you put it against the backdrop of history as it progresses. But he was on a journey, and that's what I like about him is by the time you get to eighteen sixty three, eighteen sixty four, emancipation comes out, he is starting to see things. He's still a politician, but he's seeing himself in a play of deeper history going on. He's seeing him his place even before God, Like he becomes a lot more religious by the end of his life, where he's seeing I have a part to play here, not just in this nation, but before God. And he starts using more more biblical language and describing more things, and in a weird way, I'm almost glad he was assassinated, because I would hate to have seen what would have come after, and to see that the hero become who he probably would have become during the reconstruction period. 00:41:13 Speaker 1: Wow. I never thought about that. 00:41:15 Speaker 3: But to me, he's a fascinating character because he was trying to do the right thing by the end of it all. 00:41:21 Speaker 1: Man, Jeff, that's a that's an interesting way to think about it. I've I've almost like not looked forward to get into the end of this because I know Lincoln's going to die, you know, and just. 00:41:34 Speaker 4: How it's just a surprise for people. 00:41:40 Speaker 1: I'm like Nate Barghetsi, It's like, man, when I watch history movies, I'm as surprised as anyone. No, just the human tragedy of this guy that did this thing and became such a great leader and then dies like a week after Appamat I think it was it was within. 00:42:02 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a weak yea five or. 00:42:04 Speaker 5: Six days April, let me think, Yeah, it. 00:42:07 Speaker 3: Was not long. 00:42:08 Speaker 4: I didn't realize that until the summer. I knew it was soon after. I did not realize it was a week after. 00:42:12 Speaker 3: Yeah, but right as I think, five days after the actual surrender down Georgia, except still to come after appomatics. 00:42:19 Speaker 1: But he died at the highest point in his in his life, Yeah, up until that point. And that's the way we remember him, right, And I mean what, I don't know what good that does him necessarily, Well. 00:42:31 Speaker 3: It created a lot of equity in the from the political perspective for the radical Republicans at the time to do a lot of stuff with reconstruction. Maybe they went too far too fast, but because they were able to kind of like when JFK died, there was a lot of stuff people were able to do from his agenda. It's like, hey, you can't oppose a dead man, you know, And so they were able to get things accomplished. And they did that with Lincoln at the time. 00:42:55 Speaker 5: There's two movies if you all have seen him, they're really good. The one, what's the one about the thirteenth Amendment? Is that called Lincoln? 00:43:02 Speaker 3: Yeah? 00:43:03 Speaker 1: Have you seen the movie part of it? 00:43:04 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's pretty slow movie. 00:43:08 Speaker 3: I think you'll like it more after you know the history. If you've read the history, I think you like it better. 00:43:12 Speaker 5: And you'll see the emancipation as like the next step in his journey. 00:43:17 Speaker 1: Do you think that was accurate though, because the part that I watched I was kind of like, that's the movie, not what Brooks Blevin said. 00:43:28 Speaker 5: Well, I haven't seen it a long time. But you know, another movie that's really good is what's it called The Conspirator, the one about conspiracy then the Public Defendant of the Conspirators. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a really good movie that really captures the the environment after that assassination and National Treasure too, Lincoln in. 00:43:53 Speaker 3: It trilogy Lincoln Conspiracy and Natural Treasure too. 00:43:58 Speaker 5: But anyway, you know, the Civil War, we always try to like package it up, you know, but when you really know history, it's like the chaos kicks in another gear and bloodshed continues and people people forget about that, and uh yeah, the reconstruction was a wild time and a lot of it was due to the nature by which not just the war ended, but Linking getting assassinated, and it's it would be very interesting to think about what it would have been like with him around. It might have been also chaotic. The extreme radical Republicans might have butchered him because because he was so tactical and didn't move things fast, and when he died, like Jeff's saying, they really took the opportunity to like, all right, we're going to change things now, and it had this whole other backlash. Not saying that that was bad, but it's just the reality that there was a lot of chaos after the Civil War. 00:44:56 Speaker 3: M yeah, there were. Well we're getting into construction. 00:45:00 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, totally no topic. 00:45:02 Speaker 4: Maybe maybe we can have the reconstruction fall. 00:45:08 Speaker 3: One of my favorite things about history is finding something I didn't know, and like the with the Civil War, the more you read, the more you discover I saw this totally wrong. And that's what I like about Lincoln. That's what I like about the Emancipation Proclamation, about McClellan and tetum stuff like that. It's like, oh, wow, I had no idea this was actually what was going on because I was raised to believe this one thing. Not with an agenda in mind, necessarily, but I just it's like, this is new stuff, and that's what makes history fun to me. 00:45:39 Speaker 4: Sixteenth that I read and this is a decade old statistic. Sixteen thousand books have been written about the There's been more than one book a day written about the Civil War since it happened. 00:45:51 Speaker 1: Yeah, an average podcast, say said sixty thousand. 00:45:55 Speaker 4: Okay, that might have got my number wrong, but more than one book a day. 00:45:59 Speaker 1: It was. It was my putt, it was your. 00:46:05 Speaker 5: Thanks for listening right now. 00:46:10 Speaker 1: The number sounded high to me though, but that's that was what I found, is that there had been sixty thousand books written about the man. 00:46:16 Speaker 3: And there's photos because the First War, we've got photographs. Here's what I'm waiting for. This is kind of like what I'm excited about. With all the chaos going on with AI and everything like that. This is the one thing I'm looking forward to where AI can generate. At some point it's going to happen where it can generate images for me to put on a pair of goggles and I can see like almost like stepping back in time because there's so much data that's available with all this history books, the photos where I could put on a pair of goggles or whatever and I could watch Antietam happen, like literally be right there because it's got all the data that's just so Jeff Bezos or whoever's out there, go go make that happen. 00:46:52 Speaker 1: So you're thinking, you can just plug in a whole book and well make me. 00:46:56 Speaker 2: A movie actual images. 00:46:57 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I want to step back in time and look in because we've got the images. You can you can make. 00:47:04 Speaker 1: The amount of electricity that would take Jeff. 00:47:05 Speaker 5: Yeah, and then we go back to the Yeah, then you just feel dirty. 00:47:11 Speaker 3: And my grandkid's looking my dad was an evil My granddad was an evil man. Looking he's in this cobalt. 00:47:16 Speaker 2: I looked to see if I had any any Civil War history, and it's not. We're all just Germans, which have no dark stains on their history. 00:47:24 Speaker 1: So that's. 00:47:27 Speaker 5: One thing that was interesting, Clay is whenever you had said that even your brothers were less interested than you in the same household, and that was really interesting to me, just like what makes a person so deeply want to connect with that, Because you're right, it's everywhere, especially in the South. 00:47:45 Speaker 1: And it makes me. 00:47:46 Speaker 5: Think of this time my wife and and girls we were in a hotel in Denver and just swimming in the pool and like hanging out, and there was this lady there and somehow we got talking and she figured out what from the South and so on, and all of a sudden she got real quiet, and she was just like, I'm a directors sending of Jefferson Davis. 00:48:09 Speaker 1: And you were like, why'd you tell me that I'm a spy. 00:48:14 Speaker 5: I haven't known you for five minutes. 00:48:15 Speaker 1: That she felt connected to you because you're. 00:48:17 Speaker 5: From the South, and she wanted to share that but was like kind of ashamed of it, but like proud of it. And that's like, I'm like the awkwardness that you just initiated, like I actually get because. 00:48:28 Speaker 2: I've grown up in the South. Uh. 00:48:45 Speaker 1: So we were at We're at a restaurant in the delta of Arkansas, deeper in the South than we are here last week, and I was I was talking Josh, Missy and I went on a mission to go interview someone in miss I won't talk about what the episode is going to be about TBD, but but we're talking about the Civil War. And so we're at this restaurant and I guess I talk loud at restaurants. 00:49:09 Speaker 2: Oh, you're just relaying the information in a very passionate way. 00:49:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm telling the guys we're eating with. 00:49:16 Speaker 4: Clear you do talk loud. 00:49:20 Speaker 5: Thanks for bringing this up, Josh. 00:49:23 Speaker 1: So. But I was I was talking about the Civil War, telling the guys we're eating lunch with the Waltz what was going on, And all of a sudden I hear a lady from twenty feet away, like like it was one table, but there's way over there, and she said, now, hey, you know, I mean, she didn't even she didn't even like, go, hey, I have something to add to your conversation. She just she just said and she said, hey, hey, you know that Lincoln asked Robert E. Lee to be the general for the for the main Union Army, right, you know? And I was like, yeah, I heard that. 00:49:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so you know, make sure it's on the record. 00:50:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, she was. People are are passionate about the Civil War, no doubt. 00:50:10 Speaker 3: Especially in the South. 00:50:11 Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, yeah, I think they. I think there's places in the North where they are as well. 00:50:19 Speaker 4: But are you considering Maryland in the North? 00:50:22 Speaker 1: Well, I haven't thought that. I don't know. So what I'll ask again, Jeff has Misty's given hers? I think Jeff has you could you could go again though, if you wanted to. But what what stood out to you about about this episode. Anything stand out, josh Ben. 00:50:41 Speaker 5: I do know a lot about emanicipation proclamation, but a couple of thoughts. Number two, to tie in this whole thing about branding. Whoever termed it emancipation proclamation and the rhythm that was genius? Well, and those guys like, it's a lot easier. 00:50:56 Speaker 1: Than the proclamation of eighteen you know, emancipation probably that word means to be set free? Is that right? So I'm gonna emancipate this bird out of a cage? 00:51:09 Speaker 3: Yeah? 00:51:10 Speaker 1: Yeah? 00:51:10 Speaker 5: And that And it's funny because as you learned you talk about the podcast, it didn't exactly do that, but it's the branding and the way it sticks with people kind of interesting. 00:51:20 Speaker 1: That is interesting. 00:51:21 Speaker 5: But number two, I the stuff about the foreign diplomacy that I had not that had not really sunk in with me. And I did learn that, and that was super strategic and interesting to think about. And I knew, I knew all of the courting the South did for those alliances, but I had not thought about the timing of that really like took a you know, delta blow to them. 00:51:44 Speaker 2: That was that was interesting for me. M Joshua, did you learn well, I think that I was. I can't say that I've ever had this passion for the for the Civil War. It was not something that was really talked about in our home and and uh my, you know, my my parents were from the North, from the North. They were from Michigan, you. 00:52:06 Speaker 1: Know what I mean, not a big but they didn't come to America until after the war, right, so they wouldn't they, That's what you and and right. 00:52:13 Speaker 2: After the war, it's like the eighteen eighties, yep, is when my German ancestors came in. So the way which you know, now that I'm listening to the podcast, I've wanted to be like, you know, what would it have been like in post Civil War, you know, as a post Civil War immigrant, you know. So I'm I feel like I'm learning a lot because I feel like my knowledge of the Civil War was basically just what I learned in grade school and high school, and and uh it never really it never felt like anything that had identity for me. So going going through it following the podcast, I feel like I'm learning a lot now that I'm an adult and I see the impact that it's had on people's lives and for generations but learning that, I'll tell you one of a couple of things that were surprising to me is I didn't realize that the amount Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in areas where he didn't have jurisdiction. I mean that was like, what like, it's kind of like gotcha journalism, Like that's what I felt like when I when I heard that, it was almost like I had to rewind it and be like, did I hear what I thought I heard? And so that was surprising to me. I didn't realize that. And then, just like Ben talking about learning the that this wasn't just a you know, I think, I think there's this grandiose, larger than life view that we have of these big you know, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Emancipation Proclamation. It is just you see it as this this big thing that just freed the slaves. I had no idea the background of all the areas that the strategy behind this, you know, basically page and a half document that was political, ethical, foreign relations, I mean all that kind of stuff. The impact that it had on that, and it really like it surprised me and gave me greater appreciation for what that like, what was what all went into that? And just you know, I really believe that that there are things that happen in our history that that are kind of ordained. And I feel like this thing was more than Lincoln, Like, I feel like it was there was a design in it from our creator that created things that happened. And so I was really I was really impacted by hearing all that. 00:54:40 Speaker 1: So well, you remember when Lincoln said that he'd made a deal with God that if they if they won, if they won a battle or maybe even wanted to antiet them, that he was going to release it. 00:54:51 Speaker 2: Yep. 00:54:52 Speaker 1: And he said that, yep. 00:54:55 Speaker 3: The the idea all men are created equal in the Declaration of Independence. I was talking about this last week with some folks, how like we don't quote the Declaration of Independence in laws and court cases anything like that. It's not a it's not like the Constitution. It's the moral foundation of America, especially the preamble there. And so by the time we get to the Civil War, it's like it's being tested and the South is even saying, especially like the Vice President Jefferson Davis, are saying, hey, we're not all created equal. This is what's wrong. We're going to get this right this time, and they redesign what this is all going to be about. And Lincoln with the Gettysburg Address when he comes out in eighteen sixty three, you know that it's fought July first, third, eighteen sixty three. In the Gettysburg Address, he quotes that again, and it's kind of like re establishing this is the moral cause. It's not just propaganda. It's not just saying, you know, my hearts and minds. He's saying, this is the moral foundation. And that's always made me think that there was from my position, a position of faith, that God is saying. God was saying, OK, take another stab at it. You know your this is the second chance of reboot. What will you do with it now? Because he kind of rebooted everything right there with that act and with that speech the moral foundation of America. 00:56:16 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know it. I thought another here in Brooks describe the Civil War as the dividing line in our history. I mean it really that was I saw that in all my classes, you know, I saw in college you get to choose either before Civil War history or after Civil War history. And it never occurred to me this may not be their way. The rest of the world divides up it and it really was a significant a significant time in the US where some of those ideals really were not fulfilled. You know, there's still there's still challenges to them, but we're solidified as a conscious part of our vision for for equality and for mankind that I would say have had a significant impact on humankind since then. Miles to Go, Yeah, ye, Miles to Go. But it was a good start, Yeah, good start. 00:57:20 Speaker 3: I liked it when y'all talked about the method of fighting. Yes, I enjoyed that part because it when you I remember when I was a kid, there was a TV mini series called The Blue and the Gray, which is actually a pretty good historical mini series. It's not that great acting, but i've watched it since then. It's like, this is a pretty good telling of the Civil War. But I remember watching it when I was a kid and seeing them march into battle and it's like, this is stupid. What are y'all doing this for. It's like someone takes shelter, take cover. 00:57:46 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, ducks walk out there while they're shooting man. Yeah. 00:57:49 Speaker 3: And it was really kind of Grant, who changed a lot of that ulysses as Grant and that before the Civil War, you'll see people all saying they're going to be the Napoleon of the West. There's a guy down in South America, Simone Boulevard. He says that Santa Anna in Mexico. He's claiming, I'm gonna be the Napoleon in the West. George McClellan in the Civil War, he's saying, I'm gonna be the Napoleon of the West. Little Napoleon is what he tried to call himself, try to get people to nickname him, and it doesn't work. And then after the Civil War, nobody's thinking about Napoleon because nobody wants to fight like Napoleon fought anymore, because now we've got industrial warfare going on and it's a it's a different ballgame. 00:58:31 Speaker 1: I thought JD's comments about people look back at the way that the war and Iran has been fought and they go, Wow, I can't believe that they did stuff like that, because Yeah, my question to him was, just like these guys just know they're gonna die right like the carnage. That that's what stands out to me most about all this Civil War information it's just just the carnage. I mean, if you're a soldier, it just feels like you're you're gonna lose a limb or die or or well, or die disease, and it just feels so it's just crazy. And then to understand that it was the increase in technology and then the old style of formations and battle techniques met at this really awkward time because all of a sudden they could shoot rifles which had you know, spiral in the barrel, rifled bullet that was much more accurate to the longer distance. You know. I thought it was interesting that it was the last war that horses were a big part of, you know, just because at two hundred yards the horse is an easy target. I've met a lot of horses died. Yeah, So yeah, that was interesting. That was interesting about how they fought. But well, we've got we've got at least one more episode, at least one more for sure, one more for sure maybe, and who knows. 01:00:06 Speaker 4: Well, the summer's not over yet, that's. 01:00:07 Speaker 2: Right, it's still hot folk. 01:00:09 Speaker 1: Yeah, you would probably appreciate this because of your podcast and whatnot. But when I think about when I do a series on something, I feel like it's almost like writing a book that you kind of put on the shelf, and it's kind of work that you did, you know, So I didn't want to I just wanted to do this justice. In my mind, this bear Greece episode on the Civil War fits right in with the Mississippi River. Okay, not that they have any connection, but I just one day woke up. I was like, Man, I'm forty four years old, don't know anything about Mississippi River. This is not going the. 01:00:48 Speaker 2: Way I'd have done that a lot in your life. When you kill the bear, You're like, I don't know anything about this bear. I'm gonna find out. 01:00:55 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:00:55 Speaker 4: Yeah, So well it's been beneficial for you to claim and recognize it and and go find answers. You know, some people are ignorant don't know. 01:01:06 Speaker 2: It, yep, and some people are and don't care. 01:01:13 Speaker 5: Uh. 01:01:14 Speaker 1: Well, any any other thoughts, anything else stand out to you in the in the other episodes, or just any It's just it's just free time from the Covids hot seat. 01:01:25 Speaker 3: From George McClellan. I think we need to talk about George McClellan. Okay, just a little bit. 01:01:30 Speaker 1: This guy was just uh now tell tell everyone who he was. 01:01:33 Speaker 3: He was the head of the Union Army. Okay, he's the legion for. 01:01:37 Speaker 5: Grand Army before Grant Virginia. 01:01:40 Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's just horrible. 01:01:44 Speaker 4: Every time they refer to him and anything. 01:01:45 Speaker 2: It's just yah. 01:01:46 Speaker 1: Now, guys, would you talk about him like this? 01:01:48 Speaker 3: I would have talked. 01:01:50 Speaker 2: I feel like I feel like that's what Judy Newcom would say. Now you'll be nussed. Tell guys he. 01:01:56 Speaker 3: Actually Lincoln got so sick of him at one point that he actually fired him because the guy just wouldn't fight. They say he was great at getting the army supplied, the Union Army supplied, getting him set up to go fight, but then he just wouldn't fight, and it's like chance after chance of the fighting and it just doesn't happen. So Lincoln eventually fires him. There's a disaster that happens. I can't remember which battle it was, but he has to bring McClellan back because he's very popular with the soldiers at the time because he's getting them food. He comes back and then he's just always trashing Abe Lincoln. Like he runs against him for president in eighteen sixty four. He's running on the Democratic ticket against the Republican Abraham Lincoln. He's just not a good guy at all. There was a rumor at one point. I read this in a biography on Robert E. Lee. There was a rumor that McClellan had a plan And again this is just a rumor and it's kind of contested, but that had a plan that he was going to meet up in battle with Robert E. Lee and the two of them would actually form a truce and march into Washington together and just a clear piece and we're going to go back to the way it was that day after secession began. You all can secede. We're going to do all that. It's just a rumor, but it was enough to get Abraham Lincoln out there to go have a talk with him about it. It's like, hey, this is this actually going to happen, or what's your story? He goes Abraham Lincoln, goes to visit him one night at his house and he's not there, so he just waits for him with one of his I think it's with Edward Stanton, and McClelland comes in, sees who it is and goes up to bed, leaves the President sitting in the living room and it's like, wow, you are just a piece of work. And Robert E. Lee, when after the war they asked him who was the most formidable general, who is the greatest of the Union generals, he said Georgian McClellan to be sure. Wow, imagine because he knew he could take him pretty easy. That's what I've always figured. 01:03:48 Speaker 1: It's like he wanted like he was. 01:03:50 Speaker 4: I think he probably didn't want to give the guy that beat him, yeah, the credit. There's other things that Robert E. Lee said, particularly at his surrender, and that indicates that he wasn't too high on you, and that the guy that actually beat him a lot of credit. 01:04:05 Speaker 3: M and then so, but his big claim to fame is Antietam. You know, he did win a tactical victory. 01:04:12 Speaker 1: You know that was when he had the plans. 01:04:14 Speaker 3: He had the plans in his hand, and he could have just he probably could have defeated Lee's army at that time. And instead he takes a tactical victory and then sends letters homes to his wife about how great a job he did. It's like, wow, you should read his letters. They're just amazing. He's a piece of work. 01:04:34 Speaker 1: He really thought he was he was really special. 01:04:37 Speaker 3: He was assured of that he was special. 01:04:40 Speaker 4: I think inside the Civil War, you see how how important the army was to political advancement. And to me, he's one of these guys that just really highlights these these people were not in it for for love of the fight, you know, they were in it for the advancement it could potentially bring them, and it crippled them. I mean they just weren't able to they weren't able to do what they needed to. 01:05:05 Speaker 3: Do, particularly in the North. 01:05:07 Speaker 4: Yeah. 01:05:07 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of political generals that. 01:05:10 Speaker 4: Went closer to DC. Yeah, and you know, if you work in politics, you know that closer to capital city things are different. Those are like professional meeters people who live around capital cities. Not exclusively, I don't want to alienate half of your audience, but a lot of times I remember talking to someone and I was traveling to a capital city for a meeting, and he said, you're going all the way up there for a meeting. I said, yeah, I mean they just I mean you've got to be in the room, and they keep calling these meetings. And he said, I find that people there really love to meet they're really good at just meeting. And the insinuation was the people who are away from the there, you know, we're the ones getting the work done and the people in closer to there. But I think it's a pretty It's something I've observe. The closer you are to a capital city, the more likely you are to be a meter not a general. 01:06:07 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Lincoln would. He would. There's a book, Another Team of Rivals. It's my favorite biography on Lincoln. But it's he would write these letters and it wasn't just to McClellan, but it was two different people who were just trashing them all the time. He would write these letters and just let them have it. It's like you. He wrote a letter to McClellan once, he said, if you're not planning to use the army to fight, would you mind if I borrowed it? Yes, yeah, But then he would to close the letter. He would just put unsigned unsent and put it in a file, and he wouldn't send the letter, and so he would kind of vent his frustrations. Posterity gets to read it, but he wouldn't send it at the time. 01:06:47 Speaker 5: Wow, yeah, they're like my POSTERI will no I'm hallelious. 01:06:53 Speaker 2: Let's just say that Robertie Lee's posterity didn't know we'd be writing reading letters to his wife. 01:06:59 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's alter ego. 01:07:07 Speaker 1: Oh yep. All so interesting and uh it's gonna get more interesting the next episode. I'm really looking forward to. 01:07:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, I am to be good. 01:07:16 Speaker 1: M m. Well, hey, this has been great, Ben, thanks for coming. Enjoyed it, really appreciate it. You're gonna look good in some covis. 01:07:27 Speaker 5: Can't wait? 01:07:28 Speaker 1: Yeah you can. You know. I always tell people you don't have to get a pair of cowboy boots. There's a lot of stuff. You get a nice pearl snap shirt. 01:07:35 Speaker 2: It's like a poster boy hat. 01:07:38 Speaker 4: You can get your wife a nice denim shirt, nice western shirt. 01:07:43 Speaker 3: Okay. 01:07:44 Speaker 5: I always come repping, repping the sneakers, yeah, Ben, Like I always like to say, I like to be ready to run if I need to. Ben, you're a big runner. You've been training for a marathon. I am running a lot. These aren't my running shoes. These are my Bear gree sneakers because they have bear colors. 01:08:02 Speaker 3: H If you want. 01:08:04 Speaker 5: I'm not into running in boots, but I'll go trust them on I mean, those are some good dress beets. 01:08:09 Speaker 1: Yeah, these are these are this is this is something that they have. 01:08:13 Speaker 2: I do like dress. 01:08:15 Speaker 5: I do like dress boots. I'll wear you once in a while. 01:08:17 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm hmm. All right, guys, well I really appreciate it, Acre Grinner. Check out the Burger's YouTube channel. Keep really appreciate everyone listening and sharing the podcast Keep the Wild Places Wild, because that's where the bears are