00:00:14 Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukleman, and this is a production of the bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Rendered where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f HF Gear, American Maid, purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the place as we explore. So, I was just walking down by the creek just ten minutes ago, looked in a pool of water about six inches deep. Found that rock right there. Wow, that is a keeper. 00:00:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, how that get I feel like that is by accident. 00:01:02 Speaker 3: I think it's the thing. 00:01:04 Speaker 1: I think it's a geologic process because bear tell them what you just told me. 00:01:10 Speaker 4: I mean, I met a guy the today was wearing one on his neck like a necklace. 00:01:14 Speaker 3: But you come across him here and there, you know, Yeah. 00:01:16 Speaker 1: You'll come across this sandstone. In these creeks, this brown gravel will sometimes have a hole in it, and I'm I feel like there's a geologic explanation for it. And I think this is it really is. 00:01:31 Speaker 3: It's shockingly uniform. 00:01:32 Speaker 1: And I think this is a great opener for the water witching discussion because I think It's possible that five hundred years ago, before we knew as much about the universe, and the world was governed by superstition, by a whole lot of other you know, just odd cultural practices that tried to explain the mechanics of the universe. It's possible that a man would have picked that up and thought, oh, well, today I'm going to find a wife, or I'm gonna you know, there's gonna be some there's some correlation to what happens in your life when you find a round rock with a hole in it. But welcome to the barriers. 00:02:15 Speaker 2: But I have a I have another thought about that. Okay, we always wonder about the guy, you know, the cave man or the prehistoric. 00:02:24 Speaker 1: Inappropriate and offensive to call them cave man. Let's call them prehistoric man. 00:02:31 Speaker 2: The guy who invented the wheel. Maybe he didn't invent it, Maybe he just found it. 00:02:36 Speaker 3: That is brilliant. That could be a that could be its own book. 00:02:40 Speaker 2: Carry's got to finish this Sudoka that. 00:02:42 Speaker 1: Dad's over here studying. Welcome to the bar geras rendered. Dad got the believer hat on. 00:02:47 Speaker 3: You bet, man, I dressed up. 00:02:49 Speaker 1: This could be a whole new marketing campaign for you. We have not talked about waterwitch in a long time, so I don't really know where you stand on it right now. But should you be a believer or I could see like a new T shirt maybe with you holding the pair of witching sticks. 00:03:06 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I could. 00:03:07 Speaker 1: You know, I could use the extra money. 00:03:09 Speaker 5: Yeah, I charge for photoshopping deals all photoshop misty. 00:03:16 Speaker 1: Welcome. It's been a while since we've had the crew back together. 00:03:20 Speaker 2: Itukem. 00:03:22 Speaker 1: It's a lot of it's a lot of a lot of new coombs here today. But I'm really excited to talk about water witching and let me tell you, and i'd like to hear y'all's thoughts on this. It's super risky to do a podcast like this because if you're a if you're a serious journalist, which I consider myself a serious journalist. I mean that doesn't mean I always talk about serious topics or topics of consequence necessarily, but I take my reporting seriously. 00:03:54 Speaker 3: If I tell a story, I want it to be accurate. 00:03:56 Speaker 1: Now I do in the style of storytelling that I do on the Bear Grease podcast. Look, they're journalists that just report the facts and do not insert themselves into it. That's most of the journalism, maybe not most, a percentage of the journalism that we see, like a newscaster on your local news station is basically just going to be like at seven oh one pm tonight, a tractor trailer rig ran into the bridge and ran off the road. Authorities are responding now, and then they might input a little bit of their their personal opinion at the end, like I wonder what happened to him? And it's kind of funny, point me, point ban the kind of journalism I do on Bear Grease. I want to bring people along on my journey to answer questions that I have, you know, and so I try never to put my thumb on the scale. But if I do, I'm telling you that I'm doing it, you know, because that's where authors get in trouble, is when they take research or not get in trouble, but where they just create a book or a piece of work that's not really that doesn't really stand up against criticism because their thumbs on the scale, like they're taking the research and they're trying to push it to become what they want it to be. It's possible that someone could listen to this episode of Burgers and say I did that here. But I really tried to be very upfront with the data that I had, which was a many decades of being exposed to waterwitching, dowsing, rods, these things, and what I know about the research on it, this IDEO motor effect, the limited understanding of the actual science that they did when they did blind tests with water witchers and decided they couldn't find things underground anymore than anybody else. 00:06:01 Speaker 3: But but. 00:06:04 Speaker 1: I think it's kind of foolish just to type in Google and say what does What's what fuels dowsers and water witchers and it says ideometer effect and you just go, Okay, well that's what it is. Because I'm not convinced that we're asking right questions. But what what was your impressions of the of the of the podcast? We're just going to jump right in, okay, bear. 00:06:36 Speaker 5: Now, uh Hey. I found it very intriguing because I've dowsed and water witched and you know, seen this stuff and been involved known people who did it all my life, and uh, to actually get in it and study it and talk about it, I found. 00:06:54 Speaker 1: It very intriguing. 00:06:57 Speaker 2: Gary, what was the earliest the earliest time you remember seeing someone do it or doing it yourself. 00:07:04 Speaker 1: My uncle. 00:07:06 Speaker 5: Was building a new house in Glenwood, Arkansas, and I was probably a ten year old kid, and he could stick went out, he dug well, and I'm pretty sure it worked. I don't remember the results, but that that was he did it. Yeah, he did it. Yeah, Yeah. And I talked to his daughter about that, and she remembered it. She remembered him doing that. 00:07:37 Speaker 1: And anyway, I'm I am amazed at the the ubiquitous nature of knowledge of water witching in this part of the world, because I don't think it's that way everywhere. Partly, we talked about it on the podcast. If you live over a major aquifer, which there's a lot of parts of the country, like in the Grand Prairie in East Arkansas on the Mississippi River, there's these giant aquifers, and there's no question that there is water one hundred foot down or sixty foot down or two hundred foot down. You don't even have to guess. And so naturally in those areas there's not as many water witchers, or at least it's not as common because you don't it's not a question that has to be answered. 00:08:25 Speaker 4: Kind of gravitates towards like mountain culture. 00:08:27 Speaker 1: A little bit. Well, I think, so I wouldn't have known. I mean, I'm not an expert on this at all, so I really just kind of was answering these questions that I had. So I haven't really pulled the world to be like, where does this happen? But Roger Quinton, my buddy, Roger Quinton, who is just a classic Ozark cattleman over here, just I knew I hadn't talked to Roger in a while, and I had no doubt that Roger would give me good information on water witching. I never heard of talk about it a day in his life. And I called him and I said, Roger, what do you know about water witching? And he was just like, oh, man, I don't know nothing about water witch and barbera bruh. 00:09:10 Speaker 3: And then he said, now. 00:09:11 Speaker 1: I did witch a well for Belly last year and we got fifty gallons of water and he and he knew a lot about water witching. And he couldn't believe I wanted to. He couldn't believe I wanted to interview him, because in his mind, he's just kind of he doesn't know much about it, but but he actually does. But what he said that was so just spelled it out, was he he described those four wells within like two hundred and fifty yards of each other. You know, it was on a border of his property. So like one of the wells was on his property, one was on a neighbor, one was on another neighbor. And there was two good wells, one well with natural gas, one sulfur water. And then he said, there's places in the valley he lives where you could drill thousand feet and not get water. And so you kind of start to see culturally socially, like, especially before modern well drilling, stuff like this is a question that the people needed answered that the consequence was often a matter of feet, like if you dug it there or there could make a difference in Karce terrain, It really could. And so you know, so many of these kind of folk remedies answer a fundamental question that people just don't have insight into, you know. But I wanted to say this in the intro to people are going to roast me. I put a I put I put a a video up of Carl Holt, which in water on my Instagram today and that dad to me was like walking into a gauntlet. I knew that the world was going to roast me for the unintelligence of me like believing this stuff just when you throw it to the mass audience. I think if any one of those people listen to my podcast, they would see that I was not trying to answer the question of does water witching work? 00:11:12 Speaker 2: Right, No, that's not the question. 00:11:16 Speaker 1: I'm not convinced that it does. No, to be honest with him, I'm not sure that water witching actually you can find underground water. But something moves the sticks, and that's that's the answer to the question. 00:11:33 Speaker 3: What moves the sticks? 00:11:35 Speaker 1: Period. So for for all you people out there that commented on my Instagram before you listen to the podcast, I'm sorry that I'm I'm listening. 00:11:47 Speaker 6: I'm looking at some of these comments. You got a lot of people who believe in it. 00:11:52 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was actually the home team came in. 00:11:54 Speaker 3: Yeah, he appreciated. 00:11:56 Speaker 6: And then you got a couple of people who are micro analyzing your guys. Knuckles and hands and width a part at the beginning versus the end, which also is kind of tricky to do when someone's walking towards you. 00:12:10 Speaker 1: Why I put two different angles and on of the video and I didn't expect it to translate. I truly didn't expect it to translate. 00:12:22 Speaker 2: I think it's really like try it. Just try it. I mean, grab a couple of coat hangers and go try it. I mean, I keep saying it like I was a skeptic. I thought it was somebody was I thought it was IDEO motor or someone just moving it. But when you put two rods in your hands, tell it moved. 00:12:45 Speaker 1: Tell what the idio motor effect. 00:12:47 Speaker 2: The IDEO motor effect is that you you create subconscious movement, like it's literally subconscious. You don't know you're doing it. It looks like something's moving it, but it's actually you, yeah, subconsciously. 00:13:02 Speaker 1: And if you type in on the internet, what makes witching sticks move on? 00:13:08 Speaker 3: That pops up very quickly. 00:13:13 Speaker 1: I think to just accept that as true just because the Google says it is not super super intelligent either. Because I did some research on the audiometer effect and I would love to get an expert. I would fly across the country to talk to the national expert on the audiometer motor audio motor effect. I truly would because basically what you're looking at there, Well, I. 00:13:40 Speaker 6: Was looking at the things and now I'm looking at ideo motor effect because I think you need have to find it for people who have not did not listen to your thing. 00:13:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, basically, it's where your thoughts trigger. Yeah, so it's a psychological phenomenon where unconscious thoughts and intentions can influence bodily movements and actions, sometimes leading to seemingly inexplicable physical responses. So basically it's saying that the person holding the rods is moving in himself and that that's a that's the first thing that you would think if you saw somebody doing it, it's like, well, yeah, you're just you're just moving it down. If if it is in fact that audio motor effect, that's pretty cool that we can be that unconscious. And it makes me wonder what other areas of life are we completely divorced from reality? Because if you take a pair of clotheshangers out in your yard and walk over your waterline, let me know what happens. It doesn't not work sometimes and does work sometimes. 00:14:52 Speaker 6: It Wait what are you saying? 00:14:53 Speaker 1: I mean it's not it works every time? 00:14:56 Speaker 3: Right, yeah, it works every time? 00:14:59 Speaker 1: What did you think, Misty. 00:15:01 Speaker 6: I thought it was really interesting. I did bring my psychology book from my color section. 00:15:06 Speaker 1: We get we let bear go, Yeah, let go. 00:15:08 Speaker 4: I'll yeah, I'm sorry, Okay, I'm I'm kind of torn, like they were there were you know, like whenever you say something like that and whenever you know, like I've done it before and the sticks cross. But then also like whenever you really dug into like you know, individual situations where like it worked, sometimes it didn't work. You know, it's kind of fifty to fifty. I'm a little bit torn. But here's what I think. I think that this is maybe one of those things you just don't look too deep into. You just kind of like, you know, it's like you don't have to have the science on it. Like I whenever I was listening to it, I was kind of thinking about like you know, like sometimes whenever you're hunting, there's like a logical way to go about something, but while you're out there, you feel like you should do something else that makes no sense. And I've had a lot of success doing that instead of doing what made sense. And I feel like it's like not, you know, there's no science behind it, Like there's no real logical thinking. And I think on something like this, we're looking too deep into the logic and. 00:16:10 Speaker 1: Maybe there's there's no logic. 00:16:12 Speaker 4: Maybe it's just stick's just cross, you know. So I don't know, I'm kind of torn because like, you know, like there is a lot of it that's kind of like you know, it's just kind of like skepticism a little bit or like you know, but yeah, I don't know, I'm kind of torn. 00:16:31 Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's where that's where I ended too was And you know, if you haven't listened to the episode, that that's the spoiler, is that at the end, I'm really no closer to a a synopsis that that wasn't at the beginning because I would believe the ideo motor effect. If I sat with an expert today and he and I could understand how the sticks and Carl Holt's hands. Hey, I'm a smart fella, smart enough, I promise you anybody that was standing three feet from Carl Holt and saw those sticks, you just would be like they're moving, Like I'm not that gullible that they literally twisted in his hands while his hand And that was my point, is okay, if it is the IDEO motor fact. And again some expert potentially could tell me how this is possible. Now, if the human palm was lined with like snakeskin scales or centipede leg and you could you could hold something in your hand like that turkey leg right there and make it twist. If we could do that physically, I would be like, yeah, it's the IDEO motor. It's it's like him holding that right there and that turkey leg twisting. It's like your hand didn't twist the turkey leg. Do you understand? That's the only part. And I have to get excited about that because that's just what I believe. 00:18:07 Speaker 2: Here's the thing that throws another wrench into it to me, Like I could see where putting the metal rods in your hands, Like I thought it was interesting what Carl said. He said, I think it's something in someone's body, Yeah that makes it do it. Like I could see there being some kind of an electromagnetic force in there that could cause those metal rods to move. I don't understand how it translates with a green limb. 00:18:34 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well that's what doctor Kinnefect said was that if a physicist were trying to analyze this These are two completely different questions. 00:18:45 Speaker 2: We need a physicist to go water witch with us and be. 00:18:52 Speaker 1: Well, they wouldn't. I don't think they'd have any more conclusions than we already have. 00:18:58 Speaker 2: I mean, but there's always so much skepticism, you know what I mean, they they're they're they're taking people's word for it. I want them to try it. Yeah, let's kidnap ken Effect and take him out. 00:19:11 Speaker 1: Oh, he would do it. He was He was a cool guy. Quick story about doctor Kenefect. Haven't seen him first of all. This episode I thought just laid out really fun. I mean, part of the other thing. The reason I talked about this is just I'm interested in how culturally people handle water witching, you know how how Carl Holt when I said he knew, He's like, there's no science behind this. Science says it's fake. And I'm like, do you have a problem with that? And I mean he's like, no, I mean it works. 00:19:46 Speaker 3: That was his thing. 00:19:46 Speaker 1: That's what That's pretty much what all the people on the podcast said are just like, hey, I don't need science to validate this. It works. But it was really cool here and Mark Findahl, my dear friend up the road, here talk about Seth Timmins, that old man. And now I hope that people understood that what Seth is doing, I think we could say, I mean that's like stretching the rules a lot. 00:20:16 Speaker 6: Which part of it it. 00:20:17 Speaker 1: Was a gift or well, he cures would carry them with him, pill bottles with him that were full of whatever he was looking for, and so he would take his he would take his rods, and if he wanted to find sulfur water or well, he actually mainly used his pill bottles for finding natural gas. So he had natural gas sand in one, good water in one. So he basically his rods might indicate and he might not know if it's sulfur water regular water. So he'd put sulfur water in his hand and see if it indicated, and if it did, he'd be like, man, you got sulfur water. And he could also had mechanisms to be able to tell how deep it was and all this stuff. 00:21:00 Speaker 2: I wonder if he kept a diary or anything of all his water witching, right, because talking to Colin Eaton, I mean he's like, he's like, I do this five times a week, and I can do it with one hundred percent certainty. 00:21:14 Speaker 6: Yeah, Yeah, it's it's tricky because when you when you hear people who do stuff, and I understand all the reasons, but when you you hear people I'm kind of a bear where I've had enough experiences and I think that there's you know, there's a natural world and and and that has laws that govern it, but that's not the only world we interface with, and and I just think that when you I don't know, I tend to on this kind of stuff that has this many different potential potential ways to measure it in any Yeah, I tend to go with the people who have experienced over because I don't trust the lab in that scenario. I know it's not going to work. I know you cannot measure some things in a lab because the circumstances the lab are not the same. But when I hear someone say, I've done this a thousand times in the last three years, I'm going to go with what that guy says, because I trust that more than this lab experience of just at working in social science and even in physical science, it labs have some limitations. 00:22:19 Speaker 1: Doctor kin Effect's story was so spot on when he gave the example of the Russian lab that they thought it was fraudulent because they couldn't replicate this thing anywhere. And they go there and they watch what they do, and the sky, you know, puts this ear grease. He runs the wire behind his ear. 00:22:37 Speaker 2: It's ear grease, not bear grease, right right, And. 00:22:40 Speaker 1: That is what. 00:22:41 Speaker 6: There is a similar podcast this in the Soviet in Russia called ear Grease. 00:22:50 Speaker 1: That's that is what. And I talked to doctor Kenfect for over an hour and you heard like seventeen minutes or maybe like nine minutes of him talking. And that's baseasically, we just went round and round about like what exactly are we studying? Because the difference between Seth Timmins born in nineteen twelve that carries around pill bottles sulfur water and good water and saltwater, and Colin Deaton, who works up here at this excavation company in northwest Arkansas, that which is utility lines, you might as well be comparing, you know, an apple farmer to a boat captain, you know, on the Atlantic Ocean, like they're just doing different things, yep, completely different, and yet we find these correlation points. And you know, the skeptic inside if I was playing devil's advocate. I would say it's possible that somebody like a Colin would be way more in tune with the world than he even realizes. When he steps on to a job site. He maybe doesn't subconsciously know, but he's seen so many that he knows where that water line is, right, I mean, and and so the ideo motor effect comes into practice and confirms what he thinks, and most of the time he's right. I'm not saying I believe that. I'm just saying that could be sad, and you would have to kind of be like maybe, because I do think that humans are masters, and we learned this when we were living in the wild. But we're masters of finding correlations that help us be successful. I mean, we're masters at I mean, we had to just look for anything that we could to give us any insight into the future, like bear grease. Like right here, I keep this on this jar bear grease on my windowsill, and you see it's bisected. It separates in this clear, clear olive oil colored liquid and then this pak thicker liquid. In the Indians in the Southwest United States used to put bear oil in the scraped bladder of a deer. So that it was translucent, and they forecasted the weather with bar oil because barreil just ever so slightly changes with barometric pressure. And for me to think that I could do that as well as them, it's kind of crazy. Because they lived in a world that didn't have the weather app on their phone, that they didn't have a shelter over their head quite like I have, and air conditioning. Their entire existence was based upon them being able to have some certainty about the future. And man, I just feel like they were dialed in a way that we wouldn't be. I mean, this temple that we live inside of, this body, I think is capable of so much more than what a modern human asks of it in terms of these these things that that might not line up with all the modern laws of physics. 00:26:10 Speaker 6: I agree, I agree. 00:26:20 Speaker 1: What about so misty doctor Newcomb here has brought out her physics textbook. 00:26:26 Speaker 6: Not physics, psychology, psychology different, different, because that's the question, isn't it. 00:26:30 Speaker 3: Is this a psychology question or a physics question? 00:26:34 Speaker 6: And and you know, we were we were talking about this all the time as Clay would go interview people. And I think this makes a little more sense with the metal kind of like what you were saying, the metal ride versus the wood. But one of the things I thought about, and I've thought about this in a couple a couple of different times, and I'm not really an expert, so I'm just kind of putting it out there. But I just remember, in you know, your intro to psychology class in college, they talk about neurons and synapses and like, when you have a thought, there's actually and I was gonna try to explain it, but I decided it would be too boring. And but when you have a thought, like every time you when you focus your mind, there's a chemical reaction and a an electrical reaction happening in your brain. I mean, I mean, that's that is just truth. And and it's kind of kind of tricky to explain. But well for someone like me who doesn't explain it all the time, a psychology professor could probably explain it very easily. But but the you know, those synapses get get stronger the more you do something, and and I'm just just and and and those those things speed up. So to me, one of the things I wonder is, and I I've heard people describe water witching as when they concentrated hard and when that guy squeezed real hard. And it's difficult for me not to see how there might not be a chemical electromagnetic that reaction that's happening in their brain when they do that, creating some type of reaction with what's in the ground. 00:28:10 Speaker 1: I'm oh, so you're saying. 00:28:13 Speaker 2: The electro the elect the electro the process of the neurons firing produces an electrical impulse that could be interacting with whatever it is in the ground. 00:28:28 Speaker 1: What makes I thought you were going to say that was the ideo motor effect. 00:28:32 Speaker 6: Well, no, I don't think. I mean I think that what if you're what if your body because your body's connected to the ground, what if there are actual electro magnetic things happening. Yeah, because there is an electrical charge when you think a thought. Yeah, and the more the more you think something this, the stronger those the faster those charges happen. 00:28:51 Speaker 2: So, like you're saying, if you believe it, it could be more. Yeah, lausible that. 00:28:59 Speaker 6: Yeah, But I am not an expert. I'm not like a psychiatrist. I'm not a psychology professor. This was my intro to science, my intro to psychology class that I get that information from. And I'm just saying, but why wouldn't how why would that not have some impact that electrical if there is an electrical charge when you focus on something and there is a chemical churge. 00:29:19 Speaker 1: That's a good point. Well, but that also could be the mechanism of the audio motor effect is that when you concentrate and think about it, that it produces electrical charge that makes you do involuntary movements. But but I see exactly what you're saying, and it really can't be denied that the power of human belief or faith, even people that don't believe in in the in the traditional idea of like a biblical faith, like faith in a God, that would that was within a spiritual faith in a spiritual realm. You know, basically there would be a group of people that would think all that there is is what can be seen with the eyes and measured by physics. So but even even those people will say, some crazy stuff happens when people believe. Yeah, you know, I actually heard I'm thinking of an actual conversation and a person that I heard say that that It shocked me when they said. 00:30:21 Speaker 3: It because they were like Oh yeah, crazy. 00:30:24 Speaker 1: Stuff happens when people just think it's going to happen, which is which is interesting. But here's something that I did with Carl. I had actually never been in the presence of somebody that used a used. 00:30:37 Speaker 3: A fork stick to witch water. 00:30:40 Speaker 1: All my experience pretty much was finding water lines and stuff and utility lines with with the witch and rods. When Carl did it, I said, does it work if you don't grip the stick real tight? And he was like no, and he walked over it just holding it real light and it it didn't bob down. And if you took if you took a if you took a jig, like if you had a remote control car with a stick on it that could hold the witching sticks and you drove that remote control car around, I'm quite certain the rods wouldn't move. And that's why Carl said, I think it has something to do with your body, which someone who is trying to build a case for the IDEO motor, in which they do right, you wouldn't have to try to build the case. You would say, well, obviously it's IDEO motor because you have to be holding it for your body to subconsciously move and again, the only thing that's keeping me from fully buying the IDEO motor thing is I just don't understand the physics of how if I griped that turkey leg that hard, that that turkey leg can twist in my hand and it's me subconsciously doing it. Now if I turned my hand, yeah, I'm telling you the wood bent with Carl like it it like it like shook. 00:32:02 Speaker 6: And the other side of that is, if this is an IDEO motor thing, how do you know where the water is? To think that that's where the water is? 00:32:11 Speaker 1: Well, now, that is where all the hocus pocus potentially comes because like when me and Carl walked up in the backyard, we knew that there was a well there, so our brains were like, there's water there, So it would clearly if it was fake, would signal there because we knew it. If you were a water witcher walk if I told y'all want to well in this acre land and you start walking circles, where were gonna say, Josh. 00:32:39 Speaker 2: Well, I just that whole thing. Those witch and rods. I ordered those witch and rods right there, Yeah, and I took them out. I took them out because I knew where my water line was. And I walked over the water line and I was like, they are not moving. And I walked back forth. And I went out today and realized my water line is actually not there. It's in a different spot. Really yeah, And I couldn't get him to move. And when I walked over my water line, they moved. 00:33:07 Speaker 1: Oh that's that's a blind test right there. 00:33:10 Speaker 2: I thought it was my water line because I have a box in my front yard and I went over and looked at it. I'm like, why are these not crossing? And I looked at it and realized it was an AT and T box. It was just my phone line. 00:33:23 Speaker 1: So I was like, well, you know, there's there there there just as many people is is swear that it works like these under guys that dig underground utilities and stuff. I have a good friend over in Oklahoma. I won't say his name. He knows who he is. He he laughs at me for for even acknowledging water witching. And he he digs. He digs for a living on. 00:33:58 Speaker 3: A big excavator. 00:33:58 Speaker 2: And he doesn't whitch. 00:34:00 Speaker 3: No, he thinks he's just like Clay. 00:34:02 Speaker 1: I used to think you were smart or you know, he's like I used to think you were normal or whatever. 00:34:06 Speaker 4: You know. 00:34:06 Speaker 3: He's just like, I can't believe you're this. 00:34:08 Speaker 2: I've hardly run into an excavator that doesn't do it. 00:34:11 Speaker 1: Yeah really yeah, yeah yeah. 00:34:15 Speaker 2: Most of them keep witching rods in the truck. 00:34:18 Speaker 1: Well okay, but here's the thing too. Anybody that that just is adamant and is upset about how stupid we are, that's not done it. I have like zero exactly. It's just like, okay, whatever, dude, you've not you've not felt it in your hands and bear sticks move? 00:34:43 Speaker 2: Have you done it? Yeah? Did you feel the sticks move? 00:34:47 Speaker 1: Yeah? 00:34:47 Speaker 4: And I've honestly done it, like since I was a little kid, and I never even questioned it until now. 00:34:53 Speaker 1: I just thought, yeah, you just walk over the waterline. 00:34:56 Speaker 2: Sticks moved out. 00:34:57 Speaker 4: Then whenever I was listening to this podcast, I was like, wait a minute, this is I've been too crazy. 00:35:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know who duped us? The believer? Do you remember when we I vividly remember when we went and witched And this is where it just starts sounding kookie as it can be. But when we went and witch those graves that. 00:35:18 Speaker 2: If it looks cookie and smells cook cookie is probably cookie. 00:35:21 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:35:21 Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, Uh, you got an earth and it's made up different ways, and you put something in the ground, an old car, a grave. 00:35:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, and all. 00:35:34 Speaker 5: These forces that that I've read about that you came up with here, gravity and wisdom and magnitude, all we're conductor of that. And you know, you might have a cookbook in your hand and for some reason, that's a great conductor. It just happens that that limb really is a great conductor. They say it needs to be green or helps to be green, certain type of tree. You take a metal odd. 00:36:00 Speaker 2: I mean, we need to do better for your barefoot. 00:36:02 Speaker 5: But uh, you find water because there's no old car bodies, there's no graves in the area. 00:36:09 Speaker 7: You know. 00:36:10 Speaker 1: You find water because it's everywhere. 00:36:13 Speaker 5: But if you if you were in a cemetery trying to find water, you wouldn't have much luck. 00:36:18 Speaker 1: You're gonna find graves. 00:36:20 Speaker 3: Hey, your cars beeping? 00:36:21 Speaker 5: I hit a button, didn't. 00:36:22 Speaker 1: I Made'll be there in a minute. 00:36:27 Speaker 2: He just doused for his bronco. 00:36:29 Speaker 1: No, you know, there's just so many variables. It's hard to it's hard to uh, let you get it. Yeah, now that is witchcraft. Yeah, be able through their able to start your car. 00:36:43 Speaker 2: Yep, witchcraft is all a matter of time? 00:36:49 Speaker 1: What do you mean of age? 00:36:51 Speaker 2: That would have been witchcraft one hundred years ago? Yeah, and now it's normal. The fact that we can pick up a cell phone and I can call all the way across the world, that's witchcraft. 00:37:00 Speaker 6: I disagree with you, Josh one hundred years ago, Okay, but I don't believe that witchcraft is all a matter of time. 00:37:09 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. What she said is that there is such a I would I would say that there there is. 00:37:15 Speaker 2: I'm using the term loosely like perception about perception of what is supernatural and what. 00:37:22 Speaker 1: Is This is a good place for me to say that my whole life, I've been quite uncomfortable with the naming of witching for water, Like I don't, I don't play around with and I don't think anybody in this room does, Like we don't. It's a market major marketing blunder of there that that they called it witch And that's the reason I feel comfortable even talking about this, Like I if like I don't want to talk about the occult or anything weird like that, like uninterested. My interest in this is that I believe that this is not that, and I believe that most people don't. 00:38:01 Speaker 2: Going back to the source, Gary, when your uncle did that, did he call it witching? Did he call it doubtsing? 00:38:06 Speaker 5: Witchy? 00:38:06 Speaker 2: Nothing? 00:38:07 Speaker 3: I think witching. 00:38:08 Speaker 1: Yeah. I threw in the little tidbit that doctor Knefect told me about the it's one of his thesis students that is doing a project right now. And I actually tried to reach out to the kid, and I'm not sure what happened, but they can, as I understood it, they can detect a grave with It's kind of funny. A gravometer a gravity. That's that's what I need. Ave found. 00:38:42 Speaker 2: I got a little device. 00:38:43 Speaker 1: Here, witching sticks. No, I'm pretty sure that's what they called a gravometer that measures gravity. And and he they said that you can find a grave because the gravity is slightly different where there's a hollow space under the ground, because gravity is based upon mass, so gravity and so like if there's a hollow space, but he said, it would be such an imperceptible amount of gravity that it would be almost impossible for your sticks to move that much. So, you know, so in his understanding of physics, he's like, no, it's not gravity, but when you walk over a grave there is actually less gravity. He also told me something random, but there's a place in Arkansas that the gravity is like notably different than everywhere else less. There's like a like a like a I don't I don't even want to say how far My impression was. It was like a twenty mile stretch, very narrow, like a like a crack almost where gravity is like quite a bit different. 00:40:01 Speaker 6: Is it around the fault? 00:40:03 Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. I don't think so, but it was. It was somewhere in the washtalls down here, and uh just just interesting, you know, just like there's some weird stuff going on out there that's that's hard to explain. Yeah, and interesting. 00:40:18 Speaker 4: This did bring up a lot of questions for me about like how water is actually like how it works, because I've always been under the depression that like a mountain has an aquafer in it or like they're you know, like there's kind of like an aquifer all like anywhere you go, there's an aquifer here, because like you think about like springs you know, coming out of a mountain, like right, you just think that like there's you know a big aquafer behind it. But if there's like you know, like these little pockets where there's water that. 00:40:45 Speaker 1: I don't know it. 00:40:46 Speaker 4: It kind of made me like question what I believed about how water was stored in the ground. And then another interesting thing was, like you know you think about like whenever you come across like a like a well, you know out in the woods. You know, whenever you find those like fifteen foot deep like homesteaders, well, like how they always have water. 00:41:05 Speaker 1: In the bottom. 00:41:06 Speaker 4: Yeah, but like we have to drill like, you know, a couple hundred feet now to hit water, like you know, to find a well, and that's like. 00:41:13 Speaker 1: A twelve foot well, but it has water in the bottom of it somehow, Right. So I'm just really confused about water works. Well, the answer would have to be spoken to by geologists. I don't I don't really understand underground water, but I know that imagine imagine here in the Ozarks, there's these like big flat limestone benches and stuff. Imagine a mountain and there's like layers of limestone, So rainwater seeps into the ground and then kind of hovers over the top. They can't go through the limestone, so it just kind of like sits in the soil profile above the limestone, and it's probably gradually moving one direction or the other. And you drill a well down there and all of a sudden create a cavity. And then water is attracted to a cavity, it's attracted to a space that gravity's pulling it down in. So the shaft of your well, so you would drill through imagine imagine a slab of limestone and there's water standing on top of it in the soil profile, and then you drill one hundred foot well through that. The water goes down into the well, goes and fills up. And basically every time you put want water out of that well, there's well there because it's always sucking water from that kind of vein of water. It's you know, that's just anecdotal knowledge of how it works now. Aquifers that are literally like jicks lakes of water underneath the surface. But the hand dug wells, though, as I understand that, you you know, you've obviously got to hit water within the depth that you dig. 00:42:59 Speaker 3: So most the hand dug wells were dug on springs. 00:43:03 Speaker 1: Like you wouldn't just go out and just well, you would have, you'd probably have some knowledge of you know, that guy over there dug and he hit water at fifteen feet, So if we dig a fifteen foot well here, it will probably hit water. But they also maybe got in places where there was a seep or something. And then if you dig a four foot by four foot fifteen foot shaft, it's just going to fill up with water over time. It's just gonna be like a storage tank. Does that makes sense a cistern? Yeah. We dug a well here on our property when we first moved here because we didn't have city water. We went down three hundred feet and only got like six gallons a minute, but only have about like a seventy gallon reservoir because we didn't hit water for a long time. Wells, this is boring. Did you wait for that? 00:43:53 Speaker 3: Well? No, you just. 00:43:55 Speaker 2: That's the problem. 00:43:57 Speaker 1: There was the problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah I did. I didn't witch it. I didn't get good water, but we lived off that for years. 00:44:05 Speaker 6: Yeah, it wasn't terrible. I mean, it was a family off. 00:44:07 Speaker 1: To our house and we'd have to be like, you want a glass of water, you should bring your own water. 00:44:12 Speaker 6: No, it was not that bad. If we were a family of six that lived off it for years. It did seem like in August when we would have huge gatherings we would run out of water. We would, but we would have you know, probably fifty two one hundred people here, and that you'd have to put intense pressure on it. It was decent for everyday life. It was really, it was very rare. I googled just now to see if people in Arizona water witch because what bears questions you were talking about in the Delta. They don't really because you know, you just stick something in and you get water and then the mountains. But I was just in Arizona. It's super arid, dry flat in most spots. And we got a Tucson woman waterwitching in the news in Arizona. Yeah, and several so, but rural in rural areas, not cities. 00:45:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting any water you know, my father in law, Steve talked about, uh, water witcher's in Florida. Oh really yeah, and and water's everywhere down there. But he said he remembered them like trying to just find the best spot using using sticks, you. 00:45:25 Speaker 2: Know, you go ten feet instead of twelve feet. 00:45:28 Speaker 6: Yeah, we got a water witcher in Kansas, people asking on Facebook for an experienced water witcher in Prescott, Arizona. M. Sorry, I'm kind of going down the rabbit trail here. I'm curious. Yeah, Oregon. So sorry, I'll stop, but they're all there, all yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:45:52 Speaker 2: How do you feel about how do you feel about whether a witcher should take money or not? You think that affects their efficacy. 00:46:00 Speaker 6: I think they should take money. 00:46:01 Speaker 2: You think they should take come out. 00:46:03 Speaker 6: I think anytime you spend, you spend time, pay the person what they were. I think they're asking them to come. 00:46:08 Speaker 2: I think you should give them a token of gratitude, not money, like a blaf of bread or some farm. 00:46:16 Speaker 6: You're only you only think bartering is acceptable. 00:46:19 Speaker 1: Absolutely, you can Barrian goods, okay, like bread that you made. 00:46:23 Speaker 6: Absolutely, Or you can barter with a water you cannot, okay, got it. 00:46:29 Speaker 1: I loved it with Roger because I told you, when I called Roger, I knew that he would know the rules. 00:46:33 Speaker 3: I just knew he would know the rules. 00:46:35 Speaker 1: And he was like, hey, if some waters try to charge you money, you need to find somebody else. Its like they don't know any better than anybody else, you know. 00:46:45 Speaker 5: I kind of feel like anybody can water which if they'll try it, you know, I mean it could be certain bodies, you know, if what I'm saying would be true, that we're a conductor of all that stuff, right. You know, if you're off the ground, suspended in midair, I don't know what would happen. But if you're neck to the. 00:47:00 Speaker 6: Earth a good test. I have never water witched. 00:47:04 Speaker 1: I think anybody could do it. 00:47:06 Speaker 5: I don't know. It could be well, your chemical makeup might make it where it's less effective or more, but anybody ough'll be able to do it. 00:47:15 Speaker 1: And that brings up an interesting question about what we're actually what we're actually talking about. If you're talking about finding groundwater, I think that there it's possible that guys that have done it. Let's say there's somebody. I don't know anybody that's witched a thousand wells. 00:47:35 Speaker 6: But. 00:47:37 Speaker 1: You might be so tuned into where water is, how it flows, the sticks, all these data points that you are just a master. I mean, now, can anybody make the sticks move with with close hagers, I would say almost yes, like they it just almost works on everybody, Go get a green stick and tell somebody to go find underground water. 00:48:04 Speaker 5: They can find it. 00:48:05 Speaker 1: Well I'm saying, I'm saying, no, they can't. I'm saying the guy that's done it his whole life, I'm right, you're wrong. Okay, No, go ah, yeah, well, just who knows what that guy is tapped into that he I'm not even saying spiritually, but you know, or something like that, but just he's he's he's done it, he knows. And yeah, the academic research was done in the nineties that I read about, where did these blind tests right with people. 00:48:38 Speaker 6: In the meta analysis? Didn't you read one of those go ahead? I mean, didn't you where they kind of collected all the different studies that had ever been done. 00:48:48 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know about that, okay, but my question is if I went and got thirty water witchers to do a test on, I don't know. Are they as good as Colin Deaton He's done it a thousand times and does it every day. Or did they get guys like me that have just kind of dabbled with it. I mean, yeah, it's just so hard to quantify. 00:49:16 Speaker 5: I had a guy explained, you know, we're t I told him's coming up here to water wishing deal and he told me this elaborate story. He's a great storyteller, a good friend of mine. And he said that they were looking for a water line and they witched it. 00:49:33 Speaker 1: But you know, you had to witch this way and that way. 00:49:35 Speaker 5: You know how to turn to get angles where everybody can't do that right right, And he said, the guy finally said, look, it's running right through here exactly. And he said, we took a back hole and dug down within six inches of where he said it was on each side. Then we took a hand deal and dug down into it and it was exactly where he said. But he he had to make several measurements where that's where the expertise. 00:50:04 Speaker 1: Might come in. 00:50:06 Speaker 5: But I don't think it's mental. I think it's a physical thing. But who am I? 00:50:11 Speaker 1: Well, Colin Deaton. I appreciated how matter of fact he was. He was like, yeah, I'm using all the clues I have. There's a water tap there exactly. He goes into the house right there and he said it may take me a while, but he said, you have to walk perpendicular over the line. You might think you just walk down the line, but when they cross, if you're on top of it, they would just stay cross exactly what happens and call me crazy. You know, you walk perpendicular to it, crosses, then it opens back up, and so you turn around and you go down another ten feet, walk back across it and get another data point and get you get these data points for where the line is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that takes skill. That would take skill to really absolutely dial in, especially if you had no data points, if you didn't know where it was. 00:51:04 Speaker 8: You know, now, I think it's ridiculous that we can go to the moon, but we can't. 00:51:17 Speaker 2: Tell you how this works. 00:51:20 Speaker 5: I mean, to me, it works, and not necessarily, like I've said, not necessarily it's gonna find anything. It just happens that most part of the Earth there's nothing there. That's just this normal earth. You know, it's always something you need. And so really the only prevalent thing is going to be water. So you're gonna find water, and a lot of these four things that are mentioned in in your little rite up of forces of nature. Some are strong, some are weak, and you know you're going to get different signals. But hey, it's a it's a real deal. 00:52:00 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, absolutely, mm hmm. 00:52:04 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I think it makes total sense that maybe everyone could get a little bit of movement, and there's something scientific about that. But then people who really hone in and devote their life to understanding stuff would figure out how to do it better, more precise get different types of water just by sheer experience that you couldn't quantify, that you couldn't say. I think about like, there's this type of cookie that we make that we make on the oven, and when my mom taught me to make it, she said, you have to feel it, and she would make me come over and like when you'd stir it, you would feel what And if you don't do it just right, it's going to come out too soft or too dry, and you just have to feel it. And I've tried different ovens, and every oven you get to that point at a different time, because you know, you want a recipe that just says that three minutes is going to do this for a five minutes, But you can't because every oven is different. You turn the heat on different in different type of sugar, you're using different type of conductors. 00:53:03 Speaker 3: You know, in audio motor effect, well, no difference. 00:53:06 Speaker 6: No, there is a difference. There's a huge difference because sometimes it takes sometimes it takes five minutes to get to that spot and sometimes it takes three minutes. And you just have to know how it feels. And there are people who know what it feels like and they know how to find how to test it, and how to go a little further. But probably everybody could do it. 00:53:25 Speaker 2: Check all recipes for the audio motor. 00:53:27 Speaker 1: Cookie mm hmm. Yeah. Well it's really interesting to me, and it's interesting to see how people how people handle it. And and I thought it was, Oh, it was so funny when I'm with doctor ken Effect like in the middle of an interview and literally knock on the door and he's like, oh, I'm so sorry, Clay, I forgot they were coming. And he takes off his headset, you know, like kind of like the interview is like, oh, okay, well all right, I guess we're done. In walks Sarah and uh, doctor Kinnifect says Sarah, this is Clay. He's here talking about water witching, and she goes she just I mean within seconds, was just like, yeah, I hired a water witcher six months ago, and I just was like, I wish I could have recorded the actual moment when she when she told me that, I just said, you're kidding and she's like, oh no, and she was real nice and the good she was she she was very good at describing and I just said, yeah, she was good. Will you sit down with me? And she was like sure. They were like two minutes maybe three after meeting her. She was sitting in the chair telling me about the guys that she paid one hundred and fifty dollars to which water for or that she paid them for it, and she she she Mark findall, Roger Quinton, and Clay Newcomb all have the same idea is probably should go ahead and do it, just if you're gonna if you're gonna have a well and even statistically, it's not gonna hurt you because if in fact, a water witcher cannot find underground water any better than random chance, then it's not gonna hurt. 00:55:23 Speaker 2: You, right because how's because how's a well driller gonna find it? 00:55:29 Speaker 6: Yeah? 00:55:30 Speaker 2: They don't have any better chance than the water witcher. 00:55:32 Speaker 1: They I mean, okay, would they would? They would have a lot of prior knowledge of where to drill well, you know, they would they would have known in this valley or at this elevation. Typically we drill here or here or. 00:55:49 Speaker 6: I guarantee you yeah know that information too. I'm certain that water witchers would know that intel maybe because they've done it. Yeah, so they've got they have that. That's part of it. 00:56:02 Speaker 1: See, there's all levels of water witchers, you know, like Carl, the one. 00:56:07 Speaker 6: You would pay, the one you would pay. 00:56:11 Speaker 1: There should be like Carl, Carl told me. I mean, in Carl's mind he has well, it's it's I believe him. He's never told them to dig a well there and then not have found water. They always find water. 00:56:28 Speaker 2: I'd like to see a statistic on how many well drillers drill well and don't find water. 00:56:32 Speaker 1: Right, that's the thing, because it could be it's just like well, anywhere you drill, if you drill deep enough, you're going to find water. 00:56:40 Speaker 2: Typical well around here's what two to three hundred feet. 00:56:43 Speaker 5: I'd say so, and Bear's founded at fourteen, So I mean I'm going to bear yeah. 00:56:49 Speaker 1: Uh. One thing. 00:56:50 Speaker 5: I don't know if y'all find this interesting, but I did. I had a customer and he was an unusual guy, and he did what was called dowsing tell us about his well. He kept his Marlboroughs in his T shirt sleeve right here. And then he get a six pack of beer tied in a T shirt tied to his belt. And anyway, he came in my office and he got to talking about this dowsing, and of course I'm intrigued by it. I don't necessarily believe it, but I'm just intrigued by these type people. And I like getting outdoors. And I said, if I give you a well, they would play a game where they would cut a big area of a yard up into blocks, and somebody would put a quarter on number forty seven block. Have the guy come out of the house. He'd take a string with a ball on the end of it and go, where is the quarter in this thing? Which kind of a ball? It didn't matter, It didn't matter. The one time I used it, I used my rope on my rain jacket trying to find it an arrow I finally got. Anyway, so this thing would take him to that spot, and I go, hey, what if I take you out in the woods and describe something and you think you can find it? He said, absolutely, no question. So I took him way out as far as you could go, and knew of a very prominent spot a long you know, two hours away up a mountain, and he said he had never been there. Of course I believe that he had. I mean, I just don't believe this. And so we get out of the truck and he said, where is the blank this object that I knew was there? And he took his little dowser out and it got the swinging, and we took off up the mountain and we'd go a little ways and he'd get us over here. When we finally got to the top of the mountain, it was just almost straight up. You had to get on all fours. And when we looked over the top of the mountain, just like this, it was flat as a pan. Okay, there was, I mean it was within fifty yards of where we. 00:59:05 Speaker 1: Came up on the mountain. 00:59:06 Speaker 5: What's the it, Well, I'd rather not say. 00:59:10 Speaker 1: Oh it's a big yeah. 00:59:12 Speaker 2: Oh it's a it's a like a location like. 00:59:14 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Okay, you can say it was a cemetery. 00:59:16 Speaker 5: Okay, cemetery okay, way out, no roads to it. It's just isolated up. 00:59:23 Speaker 3: There a long ways away. 00:59:26 Speaker 2: Dad's told I thought you meant like there was an object you had Well. 00:59:29 Speaker 5: You know, I just didn't want to to people who know the area. 00:59:32 Speaker 2: I didn't. 00:59:33 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, it's a it's it's a cemetery. 00:59:37 Speaker 2: In the middle of the woods. 00:59:38 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, with that old old cemetery that no, there's no longer any access to. You got to walk into it and uh it that's told me that story. I remember when that happened. 00:59:50 Speaker 5: It was pretty shocking, pretty shocking. I mean we were smoking and drinking all the way up he was, I mean he was on the and. 00:59:59 Speaker 1: They're like that. You just have to either say it's kind of like what doctor Kidifex said, Uh, the guy's either a fraud or well, this has nothing to do with physics. This is to me something not even really related. It can't I just can't be real. Yeah, dowsing to me, if you're like using your your mind to ask questions to an object, that's like pretty weird. That's that's uh, that's how it bounds for me. But but I that's what people do. And that's where all this all gets so convoluted is because water witching, dowsing all, you know, using a green stick to find underground water, like, all this stuff kind of gets mixed into like the same bucket and then becomes very confusing. And then when you start reading about water witching and stuff. Back in the day, I didn't even put it on the podcast because it was just a little too far out of bounds. They would use witching sticks to like tell if somebody had character or not, or to tell if they lied. They would be like did you lie? And you'd be like, no, I didn't lie, and you go, well, let's get the witching sticks. And if they crossed the guy was a liar, you know, and they'd kill him. They would ask they would use it as hard Yeah. So there's there's just this rabbit hole that's really deep. And I don't believe that sticks can determine human character and tell you if someone lied or not. My only question is what makes the sticks move? It was the only question that I was seeking to answer from this what makes the sticks move? 01:01:46 Speaker 5: And the conclusion is huhm, one of those four things. 01:01:50 Speaker 1: I don't think it's mental physics. 01:01:52 Speaker 3: Yeah, Dad thinks it's physics. 01:01:55 Speaker 2: It's got to be, got to be. 01:01:57 Speaker 1: I want to I really wanted to talk to an expert on the audio motor technique that will go with me to Carl Holt's house and watch his hands and just explain to me the physics of Well. I just don't think I just don't think Carl Holt was trying to trick me. 01:02:17 Speaker 6: I definitely think you might have some self professed experts on the IDEO motor movement on your Instagram right now. Oh yeah, you got a couple guys who would volunteer. They've started, they've already started the analysis. 01:02:30 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and I knew that I signed up for that, Yeah, signed up for it. But hey, these are the questions that make, uh, make life fun, and it's fun to just explore these things and uh. 01:02:47 Speaker 3: And and ask, you know, ask hard questions. 01:02:51 Speaker 1: I was like, bearr. I never even thought much about it until I became an adult and I was like, wait a minute, this is unusual. And then it's like, is this normal to know how to do this? Is this across the country? So interesting questions. But humans are inherently fallible and gullible. I will say that, in fact, a lot of stuff happens that's not real that we think is real. 01:03:19 Speaker 3: It's true. 01:03:20 Speaker 6: And I also think that humans are too skeptical. Yeah, I think it goes both ways. 01:03:27 Speaker 1: I said, something. The other day. I was writing something and I wrote it. I said that modernity has given us so much. Modernity just being technology and all the incredible things and knowledge that we have access to today that no humans have ever had access to. I mean, the human experience that we live is far beyond the wildest imagination of people from the Stone Age or even people three hundred years ago. Did you know that there were I'm going to get back to the quote. They believe that there have been about one hundred billion Homo sapiens that have lived on planet Earth since the dawn of time, about a one hundred billion. Today there's about eight billion, so there's about ninety two billion Homo sapiens behind us that have died. And what we live today, by driving cars, by having electricity, by having running water in our house, by being able to communicate via cell phone, by you know, being able to have computers and internet, watch digital imagery on a screen, is something that a minuscule like this is a new human experiment. And what I said was modernity has given us so many things, which much of it good, But we have no idea what we lost, what had? What has all the technology and all the comfort and all the full belly all the time, not having to navigate the landscape. Yeap, what has that taken from us? And that we have no idea? 01:05:13 Speaker 2: Yep, yep, I agree. 01:05:16 Speaker 1: I was gonna I was gonna say one more thing. When we were talking about you were talking about kind of unexplainable things that people do that are like beyond rationality. This this book Arctic Dreams by Barry Lopez. It was talking about when the Europeans first interfaced with the Inuit people in the Arctic, and they were when they talked to the Indian people, they were they didn't think they understood direction because the way that the Inuits said directions and described the landscape was way different than the Europeans. It was like this collision of two thinking systems and in two ways to view the earth. But they noted the unreal navigational system that the Inuits had, and there were accounts of you know, guys on sea ice walking in the dark in snowstorms. 01:06:21 Speaker 3: Like straight back to their villages. 01:06:23 Speaker 1: They can imagine that the sea ice out there is just like flat, like there's there's no there's no topography because it's ice, and you would go they would you know. I don't remember the exact circumstance, but basically they would be miles and miles out on sea ice, and these inuits would be like homestea, and I mean it was like a white out in the dark. 01:06:48 Speaker 3: You would die if you had to stay out there, and they could just walk home. It's like, what's governing that so interesting? 01:06:55 Speaker 5: A dog can do that? Animals do that. We've lost those skills. We don't need them. I don't even want to be able to do that. I don't need that. I got a phone, I got a compass, you know what I mean. I don't want to waste my brain power on something like that. 01:07:11 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you throw a. 01:07:12 Speaker 5: Dog out ten miles from your house and he'll be at He'll be at the breakfast table the next morning looking for a biscuit. 01:07:21 Speaker 1: Very good boy. 01:07:22 Speaker 5: We've thrown our cats out four or five times that I remember coming back. 01:07:26 Speaker 2: I remember taking some friends of ours took a cat out to a farm that they lived in town, and it was like thirteen miles and the next morning that cat was home. Really yeah, and even in the middle of town. 01:07:41 Speaker 1: Wow. 01:07:41 Speaker 5: Wow, those are skills that we used to have and we've lost and I think it's very good to lose them. So you think it's good to lose I think it is because we've got more capacity to do other things that are more important, you know, Like I say, why do I need to walk cross eyes for thirteen miles to get home? I don't. I mean, I mean, you know what I'm. 01:08:05 Speaker 1: Saying around here. 01:08:09 Speaker 5: I gotta work on my handicap, I mean really know anything. But I mean, why waste time when something is useless? I mean, I got, I got it all right here. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take up my mental amount of brain power on something that's not gonna do any good. 01:08:28 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, what you're described, I think he's hyperbolically speaking in a way, like exaggerating to make a point. That's the way your body in biology has functioned. Like basically, essentially your brain has decided that that's true. Because we don't have this incredible homing instinct just naturally. 01:08:47 Speaker 3: It has to be developed. 01:08:48 Speaker 1: It probably is even lost generationally, you know, over time. I mean it's possible, way in deep time a child was born and they just had it more than they have it today. 01:09:00 Speaker 5: I don't know, well, people that I get that I've been with, and y'all have seen the same thing. You can go out in the woods with one particular person and you go, Okay, it's time to go back to the truck. And I mean, I've done it with a guy one time, dragging a deer out and when we started to take off, he went that way and I went this way. You remember that? Yeah, Yeah, some people still have some of that it a stronger degree than others. 01:09:30 Speaker 1: Uh. 01:09:30 Speaker 5: And I don't have it. I mean, I'm I'm as lost as a goose. You throw me out in the woods, but I do know to look at moss on the north side of the tree, and it's got me out of the woods a couple of times doing that. 01:09:44 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I think that there's some correlation to all that with potentially, you know, this water witch and stuff. Potentially like there's there's something nuanced in it. Even doctor ken Effect said that, he said it may not work in a lab because if there's too many variables and we really don't know what we're studying, or perhaps it's incredibly nuanced. And uh. And I think I think if we could go back in time to a Native American from a thousand years ago and just pile around with them for a couple of days. 01:10:20 Speaker 3: I think we'd be. 01:10:21 Speaker 1: Shocked at the stuff that they could do, not not physically, like running and jumping and climbing trees, I mean like, but like, I think they would just have an instinctual knowledge of the land that would far sur pass I mean, undoubtedly they would, but I think some of it wouldn't be perceived by physics. I think some of it would be just like that's what makes us human? Is that where we're different than Yeah, interesting stuff, bare thoughts, final thoughts, no final thoughts. No you if you. 01:10:58 Speaker 3: Drill well you ever have land, you get you wal you're witching it. 01:11:02 Speaker 1: I'll be witching it for sure. 01:11:03 Speaker 2: You'll be witching it yourself or your call someone. 01:11:08 Speaker 6: Depends on how. 01:11:12 Speaker 3: Wrong answer. 01:11:14 Speaker 1: You get your old dad to do it, pars, he can do it. We'll get Carl Holt to do it. He'll do it. He'll do it for free, that's right. Well, he lives pretty a little little a piece from here. 01:11:30 Speaker 2: If they need to charge mileage, I'm okay with that. 01:11:33 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, he actually said to me that he he didn't mind getting a little gas money. I like you. 01:11:41 Speaker 5: I like, I like that. 01:11:46 Speaker 1: Hey do you see this hat right here? 01:11:48 Speaker 2: It's pretty cool. 01:11:49 Speaker 1: This is a massy oak bear grease hat we've got. They're they're for selling the media to your website. 01:11:55 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about arm wrestling for it here in a second. 01:11:58 Speaker 6: It'll be fun. 01:12:00 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's O school cameo. 01:12:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, mosty Oak, most Yoak bottom Land. Yep. All right, thank you guys for listening, and as always, kicks a wild Places Wild. That's my ars love