00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hm, I've got a Baloon Times card. He shan't May when wish about in the fourth grade, I think on that Baloon Times card, he shan't me. He said, we bear hunters. Ain't we're rolling Alvin David's dad. Yeah, his dad, he said, we bear hunters. What grade would have been in the fourth grade. So every every one that was on this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast will continue to explore southern Appalachia. This is Part two. In the final episode in our series on this region, we'll talk to Mr Roy Clark and Ira Jones about bear dogs, and we'll dive into the deep end with Dr Dan Pierce as we try to understand the real story of moonshine, Nascar and bear hunting. We'll also talk about a slithery subject, one that you'll have to wait until the end to discover. The very foundation of NASCAR. Is illegal liquor is interesting? Nascar? I didn't like to talk about that. It's foundational. My name is Clay Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their lives close to the Landerney. This is Mr Roy's grandson, rail Children's you would have heard him seeing on the previous episode as well. On part one of this series on Southern Appalachian culture, we define the region as the southern one third of the Appalachian Mountain Range. We met the Clark family from East Tennessee and discussed their farming, bear hunting, and we heard them play some music. We then talked to Dr Daniel Pierce about the history of the region, where the people came from, and how the culture of the region was formed. If you haven't listened to that one, you ought to go back and check it out. On this second and final episode in the series, will be talking again with Mr Roy Clark, but we'll also meet his friend Ira Jones as we dived deeper into their bear hunting, and I'll jump back to Dr Pierce. We'll discuss moon shine and NASCAR and one secret topic. Before I jump in, I want to reiterate a few things. Number One, the Appalachian region is a very diverse and modern part of the United States. I've chosen to highlight rural Appalachia just because I love it and I know some great people that are a part of it. Secondly, you may remember the conclusion we came to at the end of the last podcast. Understanding the mechanisms of why things are the way they are grants us a better opportunity of valuing that culture and the culture of someone else. I think that's important. I'm not trying to make heroes or villains. I'm just trying to tell an American story. Tell me what makes what makes a good looking plot? How to you? We'll just see how he's making and how he's not real big and he's uh uh, he's about together good and stone up, getting on his shrimp feet and straight and stuff. She strint that will beat your front feet use okay, strange so you want their their legs just to go down that. This is Mr Roy Clark and his friend Ira Jones looking over a fine pack of plot bear dogs. Who's your favorite color? He is that color right there? How would you describe that color? Black? Yards? It looks black? Can you get up to it? And you see the brandle in it? So right here, you know, I mean, you see it. But if he was right down the honor, he's just a black dog. And I've paid attention to that when he told me that been a long time ago. When that's I looked for that a lot. They said twenty yards and just look black. And then you get right upon him, you start seeing them strip time. They're black dogs that are black. Yeah. Roy's life and in apple Actia he's he is Southern apple Actian my opinion. And and that's I mean from the music to that, this is what you're welcome. You won't ever come here that you won't feel welcome. I won't care if it's at midnight. You'll feel welcome. His wife will make you feel that way. He'll make you feel that way. His naphew, all the family will scott son him long into a wonderful people. And that's Southern apple Atian right there. That's the voice of Mr Ira Jones, who is the friend and hunting partner of Roy Clark. These two breed and raise hunting dogs together. However, to understand the closeness of their friendship, I'll need to fill you in on a cultural nuance that may not be intuitive. It's this, raising bare dogs together requires a high level human bond. Much trust is involved. Family lines of dogs are typically closely guarded, not because they want to be kept from others, but simply because they've got no dogs to spare, and they simply aren't for sale. In a pet world, you can buy stud services or puppies from breeders, but in many parts of the bare hound world this isn't the case. All this to say is that Ira is a great friend of Roy. Well, I'm just you know, listening here and and thinking Roy and and our friendship. And one thing that really stands out a lot to make with Roy is, you know, to have a friend, you've got to be a friend. And Roy really understands that is as good as anybody I know. And you know, we all watch the good times in her life. And when things good, you know, when things ain't going so good, a little si ignission, trouble, you can't on Roy here, call on and he he just he's consistent in that. And you know, I was listening to Install about some of the hunting and and he's he's the very best at this right here. He wants everybody to have a good time. Most people you hunt with rather show you third dolls. And you're hunting with me today, And and Roy, he worries about everybody on the hunt to have a good time, and he wants his dolls to do good and they will and they're well polished. Hand. He wants everybody else to have good time too and get their dogs and any people, and that stuff is just it's just foreign to a lot of people, you know. The it's it's very competitive anyway. And Roy does his best to keep that out of it. And and he's a man of his word and what he says he means, and he's truthful in it, and he's he's awesome, He really is. I've never met anybody like him and and and I truly mean that he he knows how to be a friend. And that's something that most of us forgot. We want friends, we don't really like being a friend. So yeah, Ira went on to talk some about ploth hounds, no doubt. I mean, when you when you're talking about dogs, and I've hunted a lot, you're gonna see some guns and all them battens and all of them. And and we're not claiming the plot dog is the superior a number one made ever needs you got, But it's if you get behind it. I've always said this just because the dogs, Brent le don't mean that I'm I might look at him a little closer, but it's about bloodlines. And that's something that we're pretty rich into, is the bloodlines. We're not just hunting the color. We're hunting a particularly type of dog that his family for generations has had big influence in and like to feel like we've had a little influence in in a bloodline as well on our side of things. And these you know, that's kind of where it's sad. It's these bloodlines. I was looking today before come over at some papers. I was trying to track down some papers and just looking back and half far back, we're going on some of these dogs and I like that. And uh, you know, heavy fan of line breed. And I know Roy is me U hound dog blues. What's this song about the hound dog blues? This is Jill Mr Roy's daughter. See, well, you're old hound dog sure looks a lot like you. You're old hound dog sure looks a lot like you. Every time you see him, always give the hound dog glue dog blue. Mr Roy is seventy two years old in a native of East Tennessee. I asked him about his history with the breed of dog that he's been involved with his whole life. Tell me about your history with plot hounds. Well, and it's just like it's just like what I said. I was born into buyar hunting, and I was sort of borne into plockhound dogs too. I ain't saying that that made them be better dogs and other dogs. I just sort of water I growed up with and uh, they we shold her had some plots in My Grandpa had a plot or two, and Daddy had a plot or two. But then when Charles can't come into the picture, which was in the early fities, and then he bread plots and him and Daddy went places and got the dogs at the bread did Charles bread to start with to get his foundation going. And he made a big breeder plothhound. So we had plots to hunt and we could get anything we wanted off a charge and honey water we keep it or not, just back and forth, you know. And I guess I just growed to the plot doll. But then I've owned a number one walker and a number one blue tig and and a few more that's been mixed up through the years early years that could match up to the plot dogs. But I guess it's a whole. I've just got to see more old plots and and I have anything else. I actually believe. My belief on the plot dogs is is uh, they all in gonna make number one bar dolls. But I believe you will get more old plot dogs and you will any other break And I really believe that now they these people who probably won't gree women there. You folks are a very diverse audience. So I've got to explain something very serious that just happened. A small percentage of you just got your feelings hurt when Mr Roy declared his devoted a leege and love of the plot dog because you don't hunt plots, and you wish that this podcast was about the breed of dog that you hunt. And there's a much smaller group of you who are plot dog junkies that just got validated and are pumping that five star rating on iTunes right now. This is exactly why I love houndsman. They're so dang passionate. But most of you people don't have any reference at all of what a good breed of bare dog is. So you have to trust me when I say that this is a contentious topic that Narrea podcaster dared delve into you see, there are multiple breeds of hounds. The United Kennel Club registers treeing walkers, blue Ticks, black and Tans, red bones, English and American leopard hounds. All of these breeds can be used for bear hunting, and plot are a minority percentage by far. Most would agree that some variation of the walker hound dominates the hound world. Walkers are a beautiful, tricolored white, black and brown dog. They're wildly popular and that's probably why this podcast isn't about them. The plot dog is known for the cult like devotion of their owners and the unique story of the formation of the breed, but that's for a future conversation. Consider yourself informed. So the plot hound was developed in these mountains in this region. What does the plot dog mean to you besides just being a dog that you can use to go catch a bear? I mean, do you feel like you have some deep emotional connection to a to a plot hound? Feel that? And I've got too many now, but it's short of like on in a O and and sell you a racking horse or a walking horse and you get used to down well, then a quarter horse or a non gated horse that trots and jars you to death. You don't like it. You like that good smooth ride of that running walk or that racking horse. You get close to the plot and to me, they'll make a house dog byar dog and maybe the quintess now you've ever seen might be the best bar dog you've ever seen. And I'm sure if you had walkers, or you had blue Teach, or you had something else, and that's what you bread and that's what you got used to, that's what you'd like. But I just got into the plots and I had an easy excess to them, and and that's just what I like. Well, it really is part of the mountain culture over here in the story of the Plothhound and so unique. Yes you know that we we was live so close to where the plot started from. Did they give some better we had a better shot it getting plots instead? Well, I just say this much about the hunting and about and and I was sitting right over and fast for me a little bit. I buy hunted a long time, and I mostly hunted plot dogs. But everybody can hunt whatever they want to. That just what I'm mostly honey, And I feel like in my lifetime that that we've owned some good at dogs that you could buy. And I feel good about the dogs that we've owned and bread and trained ourselves and not had to go out and buy dogs, didn't have the money to buy them, no way, and all the dogs we've used just what we've trained our shelves. So I feel like that's a good accnfidence And I feel like I've owned dogs able to hunted with anybody they know that wanted to buy her. And I don't feel like I've been ashamed that that's saying that that's what I think you knew in effort to understand hunting in the human bond that produces I want to let you listen to a short clip which is completely taken out of context, so you have to pay attention for it to make sense, but the moment involves real tears. In twenty nineteen, on my former podcast, the Bear Hunting Magazine Podcast, I interviewed Mr Roy in the Laurel Mountain Bear Hunters, which is basically the long time friends that he hunts with. It includes father's sons, daughters, old and young alike. In this clip, Mr Roy is talking about a Valentine's Day card he got when he was in the fourth grade from a man named Floyd ray Ford, who is not in the room, but Floyd's son, Alvin David is in the room and is now in his mid fifties. Alvin David is not miked up, but Mr Roy's attention. Hearns to Alvin David and he begins to speak to him. I've got a Valentine's card in here he sent me when we was about in the fourth grade, I think. And on that Valentine's card he sent me, he said, we bear hunters. Ain't we're rolling? That was his dad, Alvin David's dad. Yeah, his dad, he said, we bear hunters. Hunter what grade would you? How old would you have been? Was in the fourth grade, so every everyone that was how long ago? That about nine years old? Yeah, and something like that. So you stuck with you went ahead and just stuck with that identity, didn't you. Yeah, his dad he sort of left us coming and went something. He back, Now, maybe you'll stay, but that board, right, Chanter, ain't never bird today, buddy, mm hmmm mm hmm, yeah, mm hmm. I love him. I'm yeah, I love it, dude. Yep. That that just shows you clary what I mean it means to us. You know, it's a it's beyond just uh going out and having a big time hunting. It's beyond just uh, um a group of guys here hanging out in in boy's house. You know. It's our life. Yeah, you know, it's uh something we've all grown up doing all the way back through and it's just, uh, it's a bond. Yeah, it really is. It really is. Should he won't leave you, batty, he won't leave yet there and correct one yesterday, Yeah, m M. I wanted to get a perspective for Mr Roy about moonshine in the region. Part of this section. You would have heard in part one of this series. My daddy and grandpa, an uncle and some of their close friends and probably turned me against drinking and stuff because they stayed drunk all the time, and you don't drink. No, I ain't never drunk. So you you said you saw the moonshine as a negative thing, you know, because there's a there's a stereotype. This region is known for making moonshine and liquor, and it's kind of been glorified in some way. But there's a lot of real negative stuff that came without any If they was anything to munshine, it was good out of it. To me would have been shilling it and getting the money to have to live upon. Other than that, I didn't see nothing good at it, And I always talked to my ship, I ain't gonna never drink. I put up with it my whole life, and I ain't gonna be like it for somebody to have to put up for me. Like, yeah, we've now heard from Mr Roy and Mr Ira Jones. We've heard them talk about their bear hunting and dogs and a bit about moonshine. Now I want to shift gears and talk again with Dr Daniel Pearce at the University of North Carolina Asheville. He's an author in national authority on the Southern Appalachian culture, and I want to talk with him about moonshine, NASCAR, and bear hunting, all of these things he's written extensively about in his books. You can look some of them up. And we'll tiptoe into the bonus topic that I did not want to advertise, but I'm about to leak it out, snake handling churches. So tell me about how liquor played an influence in the culture here. It was huge, you know, for one thing. And my mother didn't like this at all, you know, you know culturally, you know, one of these things that this Scott's Irish brought was the Gaelic word I can't even pronounce it, but for liquor, it's like water of life, you know, So, I mean it was it was you know, it's a big part of life. It was just common yeah, you know, I mean, you know their stories even though they were Protestants, a lot of even though I was there processing I mean, you know, probition doesn't doesn't come into the picture really too. The late eighteen hundred's early twentieth century, there was no disability. I mean, you could be a Baptist preacher, you know, and you know Jack Daniels Um who wasn't his I think it was his adopted father, you know, who taught him, you know, how to make liquors supposedly, you know, it was a preacher, you know. So there wasn't any sort of disability, you know, during that period of the of the late seventeen hundreds, in first half of the or really to the end of the eighteen hundreds about making or drinking liquor as long as you you know, the churches would frown on people being drunk all the time or being abusive and stuff. But you know, liquor was a big part of culture. It was a big part of medicine. You know, people would say, okay, here, here are good herbs, but you really need the liquor to make it work. And of course the liquor made at least feel a little better. You know, it dull the pain, you know, that type of thing. So it was a big part of cures. Did the actual distillation of what will become known as moonshine? Was that process unique two America or was that exactly what they were doing in Ireland? Yeah, yeah, it's same. It's the same thing. Yeah. And again in a lot of cases, they you know, they would bring a small steal with them. The cultural importance, the economic importance is is huge, and people have this notion of subsistence and how people provided for all their own needs. But there are certain things you can't do with that. One of those things that you can't pay your taxes. You can't pay your property at tax, and these people had to pay property tax in order to keep their land. There weren't a lot of ways to get cash. You could there are some like medicinal or like jen Singh in particular, that had a high value, or you sold hogs or cattle, but the most dependable source of cash for people in this region, and this continued after you get into the federal excise tax, which makes most much of it production illegal is liquor. So in the just in the twentieth century, there was a prohibition on liquor. I'm trying to find out how this was. This was illegal because there was a time when it wasn't. So there was a prohibition on liquor and people were making it illegally. And then number two, I guess it would have been people making untaxed liquor or making liquor illegally and not being so described to me how it was became so original. I mean, people look at this, you know, and and talking about moonshine, and they say, oh, prohbition, And I said, well, for forty years or so, it's not probition. Because eighteen sixty two the U. S. Congress passes an excise tax on liquor, which is still on effect of this day now. They've been tried once before by Alexander Hamilton's resulted in the Whiskey re Bay and in Pennsylvania and widespread ignoring it in other parts of the country. Thomas Jefferson got elected at least partly because he pledged that when he got elected that excise tax on liquor was going away, and it did. And so for you know, for you know, up until eighteen sixty two, you know, from roughly eighteen o one to eighteen well actually and before Alexander Hamilton's it was perfectly legal to make anybody anybody can make yeah, sell it any amount. Eighteen sixty two, they of course, this isn't the miss of the Civil War didn't have impact, or didn't it didn't have any impact in the Confederate States, But then what's the wars over with their subject to this excise tax. So you had to make a decision to pay the tax. One in order to get a license to make liquor, you had to make a significant amount. Most of these people are making, you know, relatively small amounts for their own consumption and for you know, as a as a barter item or you know, cash item. And they're not making enough to qualify. Even if you are and if you're making you know, right, just over the limit, you're not making enough to make any profit. I can see what's happening here. They're getting set up for a kind of an outlaw culture. Well you can't. Yeah, okay, again, this is deeply embedded in their culture. This is incredibly important. The government comes in, who they probably distrust anyway, Well, it's you know, in Confederate States, yeah, I mean, and there there are plenty of union It's like Mike Ken, you know who my great great grandfather fought in the for the uniw cavalry, you know, and so and that whole thing of independence. And this is my right, you know, this is my god given right to make liquor. And and of course, you know, the not a lot of respect for the federal government in in much of the region, and even people that supported the Union didn't didn't think it was appropriate for the government to do this, you know, and again for for for for most people, and they couldn't make any profit off of making it legally and paying the tax. And so you have to ask your yourself a question, Okay, am I gonna do make it legally? That's pretty much either question for most people or am I gonna quit making it? Or am I gonna make it illegally? And and there is kind of a misconception about moonshine because not everybody who's making moonshine is like a career moonshine maker. You know. These are mainly small farmers who make it in the you know, in the off months. It's it's kind of an office, you know, after the harvest and before you start planning. It's cooler, that's a better time to make liquor. Anyway, you don't want to make it in a hot weather. It's hard, it's it's it doesn't make a good liquor. And so you know, that's part of their seasonal thing, you know. And so most people are doing it again, you know, not making a lot. But now of course they have to get more creative in terms. They can't just go walk in the store now, you know, with a local liquor and and exchange it or or get cash for so they've got to find new ways to to market it. And then when prohibition comes in in the thirties, winded prohibition, Probition comes in actually in much of the Southern Appalachian region. Most states passed um what we're called local option laws, where like a county or a municipality could make their liquor laws. And so they may say you can't make liquor within so many miles of a school or a church or something like that. And and and pretty quickly a lot of counties go dry. And then you get statewide movements like North Carolina, for instance, becomes a dry state in one of the first in the South in UH nineteen o nine, nineteen o nine, so well before national prohibition much of the South. And does that mean you couldn't buy or sell? Can't buy sell make legally, you know? And so this is this eliminates the legal thing, which is great if you're an illegal producer. Prohibition is the best thing that ever happened to these guys because demand, because the demands skyrockets for them because there's no legal production, there's no legal sell. This is a good place to give an overview. National prohibition was in effect from nineteen twenty to nineteen thirty three, and during this time, making or selling alcohol it was illegal. So overnight, distilling liquor became an incredibly profitable business. However, in many states and counties it was illegal long before that, and many made it illegally to avoid taxation and permitting. Maybe this is obvious, but moonshine got its name because distillers made liquor at night under the light of the moon. The process requires heat, which means you have to have fire, and fire makes smoke, which can be seen in the daylight. Prohibition led to a period of organized crime that was fueled by distillers. Speakeasies started to pop up all over the country, which were basically secret and illegal bars where illicit alcohol was served. Yeah, Newly was a good bench the man back to Dr Pierce, you know, there is some evidence that that prohibition may have lowered consumption a little, but it's the demand' it's a it's a set. I mean, like if you if you understand culture at all, you see how this would become something that would be in some ways very negatively viewed upon by some groups and then other groups very positively. Just like it would become significant in the culture just by the way the laws, and particularly in rural areas. I mean, you know, you get most of your prohibition put coming out of the towns and the growing cities. And you know, mill owners are very interested in it because they don't want their workers drinking, you know. And and and there's a racial component to they want to keep alcohol out of the hands of African America. Could they see that as a disruptive thing? Uh? And potential trouble there. Uh. And so a lot of this actual prohibition stuff comes in alongside white supremacy campaigns and Jim Crow laws and stuff like that. You know, in the early twentieth century. Let me let me ask you this. I had somebody that I really respect give this perspective to me. And he's Appalachian guy, big time. He said that the moonshiners, and I think he was particularly talking about the moonshiners during Prohibition were like the meth dealers of our time. And so his whole point is, why are we glorifying these guys that had such a negative effect on society? And I and I'm certain there are placed there are situations where what he's saying is like true, because he said, he said, Clay, there's been a lot of Appalachian women and kids beating neglected because of moonshine. And you know, and he had a strong point to me, tell me, do you feel like that's an accurate depiction? Well as part of the story, and uh, you know, there are and actually their families that you can trace and say, okay, moonshine, they made moonshine and the you know, you know, and that continues, and then they get into the late sixties or something, that market drives up, they start growing marijuana, you know, and then later they're gonna move in the math and stuff like that. So that that happens, and for sure, uh moonshine, you know, not always in in uh homage to my mother, you know, I always have to point out the negative sides of this, you know. So there there are a lot of there's a lot of downside to it, you know, in terms of of you know, what it did to families. The other thing is that people kind of now because there's kind of a craft almost craft moonshine movement now, you know. And then to quote legal moonshine business, you know, and they're these notions about oh, these fine liquor makers. You know, most of the stuff they make was just horrible, I mean, and they would put and of course, you know, because it's not regulated, who knows what's in it, you know. And they used all kinds of things from chicken maneer to lie to buckeyes too, you know, anything because what they wanted to do well. And and one other thing, when probition comes on big time, the whole recipe for liquor changes and it's much less corn and a lot of refined sugar, which which distills much quicker and at a higher proof than than just corn. You know. The traditional recipe was, you know, basically you've got corn meal, you've got corn, malt and water, and you let it sit for a week and you know, in in barrels or something like that, and it makes what they call a beer. And then you take that you pour it in and steal and you distill it, you know, and it goes to the coal and all that. But that changes, you know, and this and this uh sugar liquor as they call it, you know, I mean it's call it bust head and stingo and it's just and stuff, and again you don't know what's in it, you know. And again particularly later when you get like people start using galvanized metal, I mean that gets you get a lot of people getting sick or you get people dying, Yeah, because of the lead ascitates, you know that that goes into it. People are are using you know, car radiators for condensers, you know, so you don't know, and so they're you know, there are a lot of potential problems on the other side of that. And I think the thing is missing from a lot of Moonshine stories is that for a lot of people, they were involved in this business for a relatively short period of time, usually probably as a young man or as you know. One thing, I've found lots of women, uh involved, particularly in selling you know, widows, women who have been abandoned, and so people use it as kind of an insurance kind of thing, or as a way as a young person to get together, you know what they call a grub steak, you know, make some cash money, buy land or you know, do whatever you know, and then you go. I've got a friend who'd written a really good book called The Spirits of Just Men, and he kind of looks at his own family history as kind of a framework for this book on Moonshine, and his grandfather told him like when he was at eight, he had no clues. Grandfather was like a pillar community in a rural community in in Virginia, just you know, he'd deacon in the Baptist church and so respected in the community. Total teetotaler, and uh he tells him that, yeah, you know, when I was fourteen, I left home. I went to work in a cotton mill, and when I had enough money, I got a car and then a hearty started hauling liquor to West Virginia, to the cold town. And uh. It was like he was shocked, you know, and so you know, he couldn't believe it. But you know, he made enough money. He comes back home with this money, he buys land again and eats the pillar of the community, you know, and nobody and never breathe a word of what he's done. So there's so many families. So again there's that negative side, but there's also this side where it was again for a lot of people, you know, a way that they could hold onto their land or buy land, or you know, get started in life, or or get through a bad patch in their life. And one of the things, because there's kind of this notion about moonshiners kind of being these ignorant rednecks, you know, stupid overall wearing hill Billy, A lot of your moonshiners were your more I think, intelligent entrepreneurial types. And some of these people, you know, got pretty successful at it. In fact, if you look one of the things, there are a lot of things I can't prove, but I believe pretty strongly you can look at some major or well lots of businesses and even major international corporations who got their start and finance capital from proceeds of illegal alcohol. Because these people, you know, and if you're really good at it, and and some of these people you know, by the well twin it's thirty four and they're making me. And if you've got that much cash you can't walk into a bank with you gotta do something with it. You gotta do something with it. And so you know, you can see and it's really interesting to look at some of these really heavily you know, counties that have a lot of a big reputation in turns of moonshine. And then look at some of the corporations that come out of these places. You gotta ask, okay, you know, or banks even they get their starting some old they've got the exactly you know. So again there it's a it's a you know, for for for most people though, it's it's it's part of subsistence, you know, it's part of getting by, it's part of paying my property tax. This is a good place to tell you a family story related to moonshine. My family. Such stories are fairly common in this part of the world. You may remember my sweet mother Judy from a few podcasts back. We call her Juju. She's as close to a perfect mom as possible. But there are a few mysterious secrets lurking in our famili's past. Her father, Houston Millsap, was born in nineteen sixteen near Waldron, Arkansas. He became a teenager during the peak of Federal Prohibition. The full story isn't known, but he worked for a family of moonshiners that the authorities were dead set on busting. We don't think he was involved in actually making liquor, but he was associated with this family. When he was sixteen years old, he was apprehended in question about his knowledge of the illegal operation. His mouth was sealed shut and he would not leak a drop of information. This is where some of the mystery lies. I don't know how they got away with this, but because he wouldn't talk, they sent him away to a juvenile detention center for extended period of time. My mother was told that quote. When he came back, he was skinny and wouldn't talk about what happened there. A couple of things here, potentially positive and negative. When my father spoke of his father in law, he said Houston was honest to a fault. He wouldn't turn in those moonshiners even when it would have gotten him out of trouble. This was viewed as honorable. However, my mother and wife collectively said to me, Clay, if your son was working for some meth dealers and went to jail because he wouldn't tell on them, do you think that would be honorable? The time and that detention center changed Houston's life, most likely for the worst. These ladies make a strong point with that story. We're gonna switch gears. Dr Pierce wrote a book called Real Nascar, White Lightning, Red Clay and Big Bill France. I wanted to get some context on NASCAR. Dr Pierce tell me how NASCAR fits into Appalachic culture. Well, first off, when I first started doing research on NASCAR, I really thought because a lot of you know, when you get into the details of stuff, it's always a lot more complicated than you think. You know, a lot of the stereotypes and the standard stories or you know, or kind of myths and stuff, and so the myth and Nascar, you know, it was a whole These Moonshiners were you know, when the automobile came in. You know, they got very good at modifying them, and they're out running the law, you know, and these these uh you know, I don't know if you know the movie thunder Road or anything, you know, or the Dukes of Hazard, you know that, you know, so these good old boys, you know, and hopping up these cars, you know, we come and then they start racing, you know, and that and so I thought, you know, that's that's a great story. And and for sure there were people like that. I mean, Junior Johnson is a very much a legend, you know, and he obviously he had a criminal record. He served time in the federal penitentiary, you know for moonshine is. His family had deep roots, you know, and I thought, well, there's some Junior Johnson's, but that's exaggerated and so and so I really thought, you know, what I'd find was that moonshine didn't have that much of an impact. But as I put it in the introduction of the book, said, the deeper I looked, the more liquor I found. And so it just really permeated. And so most of the most of the early drivers were people that gained their first high speed driving experience behind the wheel of a car haul and liquor, you know, you know, and developed mechanical ability. But but then as a sport develops in the late thirties and early forties, you know, you see people who are mechanics. I mean, you know, a good way to make a living in any of these regions was to work on cars, and particularly moonshiners cars because they paid cash, you know, and so you know, so some of these people got really good, you know, some of the moonshiners themselves. But you know, the local mechanics got really good because they had a lot of money to work on things in the senator to do that, you know, and so then that translates into racing. Then you got, Okay, these people have cash they need to do something with. So a lot of the promoters were people who were kind of big time in the liquor business and they're moving cash. And then even the people that built the racetracks in the early days, a lot of them were liquor money or liquor. Did NASCAR start here? NASCAR starts, you know, technically in Daytona, Daytona Beach Bill France, who was a mechanic who moved to the area, and he gets involved. They originally raced on the beach at Daytona. That was the biggest race of the year. But then it spreads through the region. And as it spreads through the region, these moonshiners start coming in and all of a sudden you've got people like Lloyd C shows up in Atlantic Lakewood Speedway were one of the first big stock car races there. He's eighteen years old, nobody's heard of him, and he wins the race. You when the Atlanta Constitution has an article the next day that says, nobody heard Lloyd C. And he comes out of nowhere to be, you know, to win this race against some of the top race drivers in the country. You know, he said, nobody heard of it except for the Atlanta police. And yeah, and at a teen, he already had a long record and reputation. The other day he said, uh, he said, if you want to find the real race car drivers, he said, find the revenue officers that were good at catching these guys. Well, the revenue officers were generally outgun because they were driving some crappy government car, you know. And this guy had you know, every performance part you could buy to California on it. So uh and so you know, all the way from you know, Bill France. I mean, there's some questions about Bill France, but you know, and and France family still owns a NASCAR He he definitely knew lots of people, and you know, he always denied that he knew anything about it, but he knew and and actually was business partners with lots of people. And again you know most of the people again track owners, promoters, car owners, mechanics, and then drivers themselves. You know, we're people who got their experience or their money, you know, out of illegally. So the very foundation of NASCAR is illegal liquor. That is interesting. NASCAR didn't like to talk about that. Have it's foundational. You know, I tell you who else can drive good? And the Appalachians and that's Bear Hunters Um modern day bear hunters trying to cut off dog races. Tell me, tell me what you know about bear hunting with hounds? Not what we were earlier. We talked about how uh and there was a free range hog culture here, pretty dominant and those guys would have like for sure been using dogs to round it up. Is that where we uh? Well, North Carolina, that's part of the world has such a rich history with hound hunting from the plothound, which is the state dog in North Carolina, which was a bear and hog dog, a big game dog. Tell me what you know about bear hunting with hounds. Yeah, this is part of the German influence actually, you know, the hunting with hounds because again it's a it's it's more of a and I guess people who who who work for the nobility, you know, brought those skills and brought dogs with them in many cases, and so you know, these breefs developed. But you know, bear hunting early on in particular of course, hunting becomes important for subsistence bear Greece, and you know maybe a bear hide or something could be good, but it's not exactly necessary for your subsistence. But it's a communal activity. I mean traditionally the way bears are hunted, you know, and again this is you know, you go back to the Cherokee and what these people learned from the Cherokee. But again they're bringing something new to the equation, which is quit your hounds and so but it's an important communal activity. And you and you go, I mean even today, you know, you go, I mean, it's like, um, it's generational. You know, you got the the old guy, you know, who's been doing it for years and has that that deep knowledge, and then the younger guys who can still run the mountains, and then the kids. You know, you see, you know a lot of boys and you and you'll see girls these days, you know, out with these folks on a bear hunt. Here is our secret topic. My curiosity pushed me to ask Dr Pierce about the snake handling churches of Appalachia, made famous by some recent television shows. Honestly, I'm hesitant to bring it up for fear that drawing attention to this would paint an untrue picture of the vast majority of Christians in southern Appalachia. But I decided to leave. In this portion of our interview, you'll have a greater chance of being struck by life and then meeting someone who handles snakes for ceremony. It's extremely rare. I also want to say that I believe deeply in religious freedom. So my intent is not to mar anyone's reputation or bring into question their motives, but purely to peer with a curious eye into the snake handling phenomena. Dr Pierce, you hear of these snake handling churches in the Appalachians, and I know that there are churches that do that. How common is that? Is that sensationalized and kind of where did that start? Yeah, it is sensationalized, you know, of course, you know, cables picked up. I think there was a show called Snake Salvation or something like that on some cable channel, you know, and if something. You know, it's kind of an interesting history in terms that grows out of Cleveland, Tennessee area. And there's a guy that area named George Hansley, who a lot of the start of this is credit to Who's Who's Who's kind of alternately a preacher and Ah, I don't know rounder moonshine Er, you know, depend you know, he pent and come back, but he you know, he takes Mark sixteen, I think biblical passages. Yeah, and and it's really interesting someone who's interested in religious history as well, but that someone didn't do this earlier, you know, did it totally have its roots here? Uh? I mean nowhere else in the world. They were no, nothing, I know what And it's and it's the one it's the one scripture that says you'll hand handle deadly serpents and will not be harmed. Essentially drink poison and stuff like. So you see this type of thing and they'll drink strict nine in some of these. So this is early twentieth century and it and it and it kind of becomes just for a variety of reasons, you know. I mean it's you know, it's hard to you know, why do people do things religiously? But I think you know, it does relate to you know, these are very rural churches, they're they're very poor congregations generally, you know, partly it you know, it is something that gives that will definitely give you some distinction in your community if you're willing to go a rattlesnake, you know, and and and and hold it up and and one of the things. That's really and I've never actually witnessed it in person. I know a number of people that have. And the thing that you know that even people I remember I had a Jewish friend in graduate school and she actually saw this and uh, and her reaction was just like, you know, I just can't believe the faith. And actually there have been several accounts of scholars or reporters or people who have been covering this and they get kind of sucked into it themselves. It's kind of weird. They're a very famous book called Salvation on Sand Mountain and got named Dennis Covington, who was a reporter from the New York Times. He ends up handling snakes, you know, and it's it's it's kind of a seduction and something again, it's it's relatively small. You did have a period in the like late twenties, uh and into the nineteen thirties where I mean you have big outdoor meetings, you know, with hundreds, if not thousands of people, you know, in some parts of the region. And then the government started cracking down because people were dying. Really, the government came in and said it is illegal in most states and maybe illegal everywhere. So to do this, and you know, there's been a number of court cases, you know, like endangering children and you know, things like this. But it's you know, it's it's small, and it's really small now, but it still happens, you know, and you kind of kind of goes in waves. You it'll kind of pop up, you know, and you know, in a place and and and all of a sudden you got uh this but uh, you know, and of course you know, the stereotype is every church in the region, you know, like okay, when they're gonna pull out the snakes, you know, you know, it's it's it's a very small do you think And and and I have a religious background for sure, it seems like maybe early on and and and I don't know, I haven't seen these documentaries, these newer ones about snake. I don't know a lot about it. I mean, perhaps maybe there was some genuineness inside of it maybe at one time. And then at least what I see portrayed feels like some of the newer stuff is kind of sensationalism, like like purposeful sensationalism. And I'm I'm putting judgment on people and things I don't I don't know about, But I mean, do you think that would be And I think partly, you know, the conditions that made it meaningful to people are not as calm and so yeah, and it is a way, you know, if you want to try to tention to yourself, it's definitely a way to do it. And they're always you know, some documentary and it wants com film, your reporter that wants to do a story audit, you know, and uh and particularly when you know when somebody dies, you know, and you know, you know they're cost to being involved. Because most of the famous people ended up dying from snake even though they may have been bit like George Hansley eventually dies from snake, but even though he had been bit dozens if not more at times. How does that fit with what with all that you know of Appalachian culture? Does that just like fit in or is that just such a small minor thing that it's kind of irrelevant? Is that? Is that a fair question? Yeah? I think there are some things. Again, you know, the appeal, as you might think, you know, is limited to a certain uh, I don't know, so I guess a certain personality or or something. But I think there are some things in the region that to kind of lend itself to that, and you know part of it, you know, there's a strong dose and a lot of sudden appleachician religion, fatalism that that play into that. There's uh, you know, part of something that if you're in really bad circumstances, um like my my life is pretty confining and drab and tragic in some ways. But here is a way that I can transcend all that. You know, it's hard to imagine what the you know, most people can imagine, and I don't think you know, but but but what the emotions of that would be, you know, it would be a powerful thing. And so I think the material conditions of the region due you know, dead at least, you know, I think, uh feed into that. Appalachia is a fascinating and beautiful place with a diverse mix of incredible people and families that have been crafted by complicated history. There are people with a journey tied close to the land. Honestly, every place on Earth has such a story, and they're all important stories. I find myself often rooting for the underdog, for the piece of the story that's untold, or for the people who are misunderstood, or the people whose story isn't always told correctly. I can't tell all those stories, but maybe the ones I do tell can spur us to dig deeper into the stories of those all around us. I continue to stand on the premise that our appreciation of our own culture makes us more likely to value the culture of another. In closing, I believe that an authentic connection to the land helps define part of our humanity, whether it be through bare hunting with hounds or farming tomatoes like Mr Roy, or simply by going out a high where you live and taking a moment to be formally amazed at the architecture and complexity of a tree. How where you do it, I hope it will cause you to ponder your own significance on this planet. Long live the regional cultures of this incredible place called planet Earth. Hey, please leave us a big fat review on iTunes and tell all your pals about this here podcast. Thanks Emerald, damn mean money and my money, My money and risk any more. Weeks and three Love he loveing Me, fell love with me to me fathers st be with and this blow and bus hear love game Man Love, game Man looks gamp daughter. Dear daughter, can't treat me, so leave here fther with Gambler. 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