00:00:04 Speaker 1: Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife, wild places, and the people who dedicate their lives to conserving both. Big shout out to Onyx Hunt for their support of this podcast. I'm your host, Lake Pickle. Today, we are off the coast of Alabama in search of the only brackish water turtle in the entire country. The same turtle that, as we learned last time, was actually saved by prohibition in 1920. and the same turtle that has earned itself the nickname the Keeper of the Salt Marsh. Come along with us as we paddle through this marsh and check traps in hopes of getting our eyes and hands on this incredible and fascinating animal. Let's get into it. We have a lot to cover today, so let's get straight into it by getting a quick recap of what we learned last time before we dive headfirst back into the murky waters that this diamondback terrapin calls home. Y'all ready? Here we go. The diamondback terrapin, aka the keeper of the salt marsh. I paddled out in a kayak with Auburn grad student McKay Sarkowski to check her terrapin traps and got a crash course in why this eye-catching, speckled-skinned, crushing beaked turtle matters way more than its size may suggest. We learn that its existence in this place is directly related to the overall health of the marsh. We also learn that marsh health ties directly into the health of a whole lot of saltwater species and directly affects recreational users like fishermen, but also the whole gulf seafood economy. It's a big deal to say the least. We also dug into one of the wildest turns in American wildlife history, how prohibition, yes, that prohibition that you learned about in school, accidentally saved this terrapin from being farmed, market hunted, and eaten into oblivion. Once it all fell out of fashion as a high society delicacy in 1920. And while out checking traps, we hauled in one ornery blue crab, a couple of very unimpressed rails, and capped things off by releasing a small hatchling diamondback terrapin. right as McKay dropped the sobering stat that she tracked exactly one successfully hatched egg all season. That nesting crisis is where we left off, and it's exactly where we're picking things back up today. There's been a lot of habitat loss too, right? 00:02:37 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So, marsh degradation is a huge problem. I mean, across the entire coast of the United. 00:02:44 Speaker 1: States, the Atlantic. That affects a lot of species. Absolutely, yeah. And so. 00:02:49 Speaker 2: Terrapins are losing, you know, they have a pretty small home range, so they stay in a small area their whole life. And when that habitat takes a hit, you know, that's a really big deal for them. They nest here, they live here, they eat here. And so their entire life is spent in one small area. And so when they start losing nesting beach, that's going to affect them. you know, an entire population for generations. 00:03:14 Speaker 1: Which was, so to your point, and I feel the need to talk about this, we'll probably be able to see it because of what we did earlier. But hands down, probably the most, I guess, like shocking thing that I saw all day was, you know, when we were kayaking out there, you said early on, you're like, we're going to go to one of the nesting beaches and nesting beaches. And I had in my head, I don't know what I had in my head, but what I had in my head was a lot bigger than where you took me. Yeah. We showed, I mean, it's like, I mean, I don't think it was 100 yards long, is it? Like this very tiny. 00:03:46 Speaker 2: Not very wide at all. 00:03:47 Speaker 1: No, I mean, it's like a hallway just stuck out of the water. And like this is where most of them nest. No wonder you're having problems. For as long as I've been on this earth, I have been a visual learner. So rather than just hear myself and McKay talk about this nesting beach, I'd rather take you there and show it to you. 00:04:07 Speaker 2: So this is the nesting beach right here. It's pretty small. 00:04:12 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:04:13 Speaker 2: It's where these trees are. So we can walk it first, and then I've got a trap behind it that we can check afterward. 00:04:21 Speaker 1: I paddled behind McKay as we headed towards what she referred to as the nesting beach. As an added bonus, we flushed a flock of black-bellied whistling ducks as we got close. Look at all them ducks. 00:04:34 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 00:04:34 Speaker 1: Are those whistling ducks? Oh, goodness. 00:04:38 Speaker 2: I don't know. 00:04:40 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that was black-bellied whistling ducks. I told y'all, I'm not sure how it happens, but these Backwoods episodes just keep finding ways to intertwine themselves. Anyway, as we kept paddling, I kept looking for a sizable beach, and to be honest, was rather puzzled when McKay pulled up to what looked like a very small sandbar when she told me that this was, in fact, the nesting beach that she knew about. It started to become all the more clear in that moment as to why they were having such problems with nesting success with this species. 00:05:13 Speaker 2: So this is the nesting beach. So we're just going to walk it, see if we can spot any females that are up. And if there's eggshells, I'll collect them and bring them back with me. 00:05:28 Speaker 1: As we got out of our kayaks and prepared ourselves for walking the beach, I got McKay to give me just some quick details on what had been going on with this particular habitat. 00:05:37 Speaker 2: So this marsh was incredibly degraded. What you see now is, I mean, worlds better than it used to be. So they have been working on a marsh restoration here, the sea lab. And so they rebuilt a lot of it. If you look at it on satellite, it looks like little circles almost. It looks really weird. But it's because they created like artificial marshes essentially that have grown in pretty nicely, but the terrapins aren't utilizing it yet. 00:06:05 Speaker 1: You think they don't realize it's there or what? 00:06:08 Speaker 2: I think they've just been, they've been nesting on this for so long that it might just take time for them to kind of get, to get in there. It also doesn't have much cover. So they like to go up under trees, under like the vegetation, under the shade usually, so it doesn't get too hot. But a lot of these newer marsh bits don't have that yet. So they like to get up kind of under stuff like this when they're nesting. You can see that's a dug up nest right there. So they kind of like to tuck right there. That happened when I was gone the last few weeks because you don't see the shells. But often you'll see like the fox tracks. 00:06:51 Speaker 1: Yes, I would imagine if they're short on... I mean, if their nesting grounds are small and isolated, they're probably easy pickings for any type of predator. 00:07:03 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they just walk this, dig everything up, and walk back every night. So I can never seem to get to it before they do. Yeah, so every day I pretty much just walk and try to peek around for females or for hatchlings or depredated nests. The So depredated just means that it's been dug up by a predator and eaten. 00:07:29 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I'm all too familiar with that term just because of turkey stuff. 00:07:34 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yep. So just before I left, you can kind of see the remains of, there were nests dug up here. 00:07:43 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:07:43 Speaker 2: I collected the shells. So it's like they don't have many other options. This is all they know. And it's hard because, you know, it's like, I just can't save them all, and I wish I could. So yeah, that was a nest. I mean, so the female I caught on the beach up here, she was tucked. 00:08:04 Speaker 1: So if you can get one of these terrapins to get, you know, a certain size, like if they're, you know, like a mature female, is there anything going to eat them at that point? 00:08:15 Speaker 2: No, so once they reach kind of that threshold, their survival is really high. 00:08:21 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:08:22 Speaker 2: But the problem is that they're having such a hard time getting there. And then once they get to that point, their biggest causes of mortality are going to be road mortality. Huge problem. Because the females are moving around a lot to cross roads to either get to their nesting site or to look for mates. So they're the most vulnerable, the females are, to that. The males are going to be more vulnerable to... bycatch yeah so poaching um but yeah naturally like they don't have a ton of predators once they reach that size this is an older shell right here that's an eggshell though it's an older one so i won't take. 00:09:06 Speaker 1: It but i'm not sure we can see that yeah so that would have been i mean that would have been one that was predated right. 00:09:13 Speaker 2: Oh yeah oh yeah Every nest. 00:09:16 Speaker 1: Hold it up with my non-bandaged finger. 00:09:20 Speaker 2: Yeah, so in June and July, every morning when I would come, there would be at least one freshly dug up nest. They'd still have the yolk in them. 00:09:25 Speaker 1: Oof. Yeah. Man. 00:09:28 Speaker 2: It's really tough. Really tough. 00:09:30 Speaker 1: As I stood there holding that small fragment of eggshell in my hand, while standing on that small nesting beach, I think maybe I felt a small fraction of the concern that these biologists like McKay, who work with this species every day, feel. It really was eye-opening, and I mean that on a personal level. You can read about this stuff, you can watch videos on this stuff, but nothing compares to when you get the chance to actually go there and set your feet in these places and see for yourself what's going on. just makes it all more real. 00:10:03 Speaker 2: There's not much sand there either and so um there's not a lot of cover vegetation so yeah they're really limited on where they can nest and predation is a huge problem on that nesting beach and so when they're all close together like that it exacerbates that problem too um And so, yeah, it's tough out here. It's hard for them to even survive as an egg, let alone become an adult and actually contribute to the population. 00:10:29 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I've learned this. This isn't like, for most people, especially like the majority of folks that listen to this show, appreciate and enjoy wildlife. 00:10:40 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 00:10:42 Speaker 1: The hard truth of it is, though, not everybody does. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, not everybody does. And so what I've learned is, like, when you talk about, when you try to get the point across of, like, why you should conserve a species, you have to get a point across of why. To not just, like, to some folks, they're not just going to hear, well, they're a really cool species. They're like, yeah, but why? Like, they're in my way. I'm trying to do whatever. Like, why is this terrapin? Why is it worth all this effort, research, and work to try to conserve? 00:11:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the diamondback terrapin plays a lot of critical roles in the salt marsh. And without it, the marsh wouldn't exist. And so it kind of contributes to what we call top-down regulation. So we consider the diamondback terrapin in these shallow creeks to be a main predator, which is kind of weird to think about because when you think about a predator, you think about, you know, like a wolf or something large. But in these smaller systems, the terrapins are major consumers. And so they're eating things like snails, crabs. And those snails and crabs and things are eating grass, the marsh grass and stuff. And so, et cetera, et cetera. So if you remove the terrapin from the equation, now you have way too many snails and you have way too many snails. They're eating too much marsh grass. Suddenly you have no more marsh grass. You don't have any more marsh because the entire thing is eroded from the water because there's nothing holding it together. And so you kind of have to think about, you know, Maybe it is just a turtle, but everything has a really important role to play in the ecosystem. And so, you know, even if it isn't necessarily a species that you find super, you know, interesting or special, you kind of have to take a step back and think about the bigger picture and what that means for the ecosystem itself. 00:12:28 Speaker 1: Yeah. So there are any, I mean, that gets me thinking, right? So you're talking about like, there's not a lot of them here. There's even less of them in Mississippi. Are there any in Louisiana to speak of? Yes. 00:12:40 Speaker 2: So I know of a couple of people doing work in Louisiana. They trap in a similar way that I do. They don't catch very many either. Some populations are doing better than others. I think Texas has it the worst. Yeah, the whole Gulf Coast, we... I, so I recently went to a conference with some people from the Northeast and they didn't even have any idea of how things are for us in the Gulf with these other terrapin biologists. I think that they thought that we were, you know, catching all these terrapins too. And so though they're still struggling in the Northeast, it's nothing like what we have down here. 00:13:16 Speaker 1: Yeah. So what, I mean, I would have to imagine if they're playing that vital role, like we're probably seeing impacts of that already. We just don't know that it's because lack of terrapins. Yeah, absolutely. 00:13:29 Speaker 2: I mean, there's been habitat loss already in the area that I work in. There's been works of marsh restoration because the marsh was so degraded. And that could certainly be a reflection of a lack of terrapins here. 00:13:41 Speaker 1: So you hear that. And I mean, I know there's there talks about like marsh restoration. loss and degradation in Louisiana all the time. 00:13:49 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. 00:13:50 Speaker 1: There's talks about it in coastal Mississippi all the time. 00:13:53 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:13:54 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying, like, it's probably not all because of lack of terrapin. Right. That could well be a part of it. 00:14:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, it could certainly be. And I'm sure it is a mix of different factors. But yeah, the terrapin is a huge, huge keystone species in the marsh system. 00:14:11 Speaker 1: Why do they get so overlooked? 00:14:14 Speaker 2: That's a really good question. I don't know if it's because they're so hard to see. Because, you know, the water's pretty murky out here. And I mean, people certainly find them interesting, I think. 00:14:25 Speaker 1: If they see them, yeah. 00:14:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're beautiful to look at. I think they're also really hard to catch. And so, I mean, that's certainly why not as many people do research with them, I think. It's difficult. Yeah, I don't know. I think I love sea turtles, but I think that they might get a little bit more of the attention on the coastal system. Because when you think about the ocean or even like brackish saltwater and you think turtles, you're thinking about sea turtles, of course. Yeah. And so I think they kind of get lost in that a little bit maybe. And so. 00:14:59 Speaker 1: Yeah. Allow me to zoom out on this conversation a bit and provide some more context before we move to actually trapping and catching one of these terrapins. As you heard us mention before in that conversation, as well as part one of this series, the conservation of these terrapins are important because of the role they play in marsh health. I'm going to once again draw back to a previous episode. Shocking, right? When we talked about the artificial beaches along the Mississippi Gulf Coast and the multiple problems that has caused in that area. Everything from water quality, disease issues, and population damage on several aquatic species. And pretty much all of that is because the marsh in that area is gone. It was ripped out. And look, I'm not saying that these turtles are the sole factor in keeping marshes intact, but they for dang sure help the situation, and that alone is worth conserving them for. If you enjoy crabbing or fishing for redfish, trout, flounder, or eating seafood, these diamondback terrapins are important to you whether you realize it or not. The following morning, I met back up with McKay for another morning of running traps in hopes that today we would get to put our hands on an adult diamondback terrapin. The morning started off similarly to yesterday. Pretty weather, pretty place, and yet another bonus sighting of a black-bellied whistling duck. That is 100% a black-bellied whistling duck right there. That's cool. We kept paddling through the marsh, making our way through small creeks and grass flats before making it to trap number one. And, unfortunately, it was just like we found it on morning one. Empty. We then went out through another marsh creek into more open water and kept paddling until we reached our second trap that was near the nesting beach that we had walked the day prior. Yeah! Heck yeah! Oh, day made. At the bottom of the hoot net sat an adult female diamondback terrapin. My eyes were immediately drawn to the trademarked white beak that make them so distinguishable. 00:17:19 Speaker 2: They're absolutely beautiful in the Gulf. They get real orange like this. So that's something that's pretty unique to the Gulf Coast. She's got a pretty small head for a female down here, so she's not super old because they get much bigger than this. But definitely a female. She's got that pretty large head. 00:17:40 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:17:41 Speaker 2: You can see she's not super happy with me. 00:17:43 Speaker 1: Well, and that defined beak, too. 00:17:44 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. 00:17:45 Speaker 1: You said just the females. Oh, yeah. 00:17:47 Speaker 2: Yep, so just the females get this really big beak like this, and it's a really good reflection of the habitat that they live in. She's munching on some big, hard-shelled prey, and so she's able to do that because of her big beak, and that's how the females are able to get so large. So the males... don't get quite as big like this as the females. Gosh. So it makes it worth it. Yeah. All the, all the effort, you know, if you just get one. All right, I'm going to go swim back to my kayak and we can start processing. Okay. 00:18:22 Speaker 1: So this is morning number two of checking these traps. Um, and this is the, I mean, this is the same, it's six traps in total. There's three different like net lines and there's two traps on each. So like three, lines, six different traps. Um, and we made it to trap number three before, uh, we found one, which is awesome. And it's a female too, which is like the cooler looking ones. 00:18:49 Speaker 2: But, uh, yeah, that's what. 00:18:51 Speaker 1: We've been talking about and what we were hoping to get. And, uh, yeah, we're going to make our way over to the nesting beach here and, uh, McKay's going to do the workup on her, but this is awesome. Makes the morning worth it. McKay and I make it over to the beach, and I followed her over to an area that she deemed suitable to do a proper workup on this terrapin. I am beyond excited, and not just because we finally have one of these in our hands to see and look at, although that is a really cool part of this, seeing as now we have all this history and all these facts to know about this critter, it's crazy to actually see one, but also because seeing this process will give us all a better understanding about this animal and what McKay's work is trying to accomplish. 00:19:34 Speaker 2: The whole reason I carry so much stuff on this kayak every day. 00:19:37 Speaker 1: Is for this. 00:19:39 Speaker 2: For this, exactly, yep. So, the first thing I usually do, I see that she doesn't have any marks on her, so we notch them on their outer. scoots, what we call the marginal scoots. 00:19:52 Speaker 1: McKay starts out by putting some identifying marks on the turtle by filing a small notch on the shell. She assured me that this was not harmful to the animal in any way and that it in fact allows them to easily identify it in the future if her or someone else involved in her research catches this same turtle again. 00:20:11 Speaker 2: These are called calipers. We can use them to measure a lot of different things. We use them for turtles. 00:20:18 Speaker 1: She took a large set of calipers to get all sorts of body measurements of the terrapin. And then she put the turtle in a small bag and got a body weight with a portable scale. She even took some blood samples. The turtle was surprisingly calm about the whole ordeal. McKay told me that those samples would go to her lab, a lab in Florida, and a lab in North Carolina. After the blood samples were stored, McKay filled out a few more details needed to finish up her documentation. After that, we packed up everything, double-checked the area to make sure we weren't leaving anything behind, and then made our way back to our kayaks so that we could paddle back out into the water and release the turtle back into the marsh. All right, so we finished working the terrapin up, and now we are taking her back to where we caught her. to release her back into the marsh it has been a very cool morning totally up to you got her now just turn her loose. 00:21:19 Speaker 2: Yeah totally up to you if you want to hang on to her for a second and then let her go see. 00:21:27 Speaker 1: You later that was awesome thank you yeah absolutely that's. 00:21:33 Speaker 2: Cool I'm glad I got you something. 00:21:35 Speaker 1: I lowered that turtle into the water, and the second my grip eased up, it shot out of my hands quicker than Clay Newcomb can tell somebody that he knows Evan Felker. And that's pretty dadgum quick, if y'all aren't aware. Anyway, after the great terrapin release of 2026, McKay and I checked the remaining traps, which ended up being empty, and then we headed back to shore. That was two full days. Two full days of paddling, trap checking, baby turtle releasing... turtle history and biology, fact finding, and just all around good times. And let me tell y'all something. I learned a lot and I had a good time doing it. I guess kind of round it off, like talking about your work and obviously you and who you work with, you care a lot about this ecosystem and that specific species. What is your, I like asking this question to people. Like if I asked you to be not like, not, you know, completely unrealistic optimistic but kind of a cautious optimism like what would you like to see with this marsh with this species of terrapins five years from now 10 years from now 50 years from. 00:22:44 Speaker 2: Now yeah goodness i know it's a big question yeah i i would love to see this population i think be able to nest successfully yeah Step one. 00:22:54 Speaker 1: Step one, yeah. 00:22:56 Speaker 2: I would love to see, you know, I see in some of those northern states, they have hundreds of nests that they're able to protect every year, and I would love to be able to do that. You know, it is really hard for me to see just so many of them not making it every day when, you know, I work so hard to try to help them and conserve. And, you know, it gets to you sometimes, and So I would love to see tons of babies. And, yeah, I would love to see a really successful population where you kayak around the marsh and you see heads popping up left and right. Because I think in, you know, two and a half, three months, I've seen eight. 00:23:37 Speaker 1: Heads pop up. Oh, goodness. 00:23:39 Speaker 2: Yeah. Not a lot. 00:23:41 Speaker 1: No. 00:23:41 Speaker 2: So, yeah, so like eight separate times I saw a little head pop up. So, yeah, I would just love to see it. this population rebound and, and flourish like some do in other States. Um, and I think that a lot of that comes with, you know, introducing bycatch reduction devices in Alabama, um, legislation, hopefully, um, diamondback terrapins are under review right now to be listed under the endangered species act, which is exciting. Um, a status, a status update is, has been needed for a long time for them. Um, So an assessment is good. Um, and that will hopefully, if they're found to be listed, um, will up their protections, which will be good. Yeah. I would love to not have to do this, I think is my answer. Um, I would love for this to not be needed. 00:24:36 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So you let you, you enjoy what you do, but you wish you weren't doing it for the sake of trying to save a struggling species. Yeah. 00:24:44 Speaker 2: I love what I do. I wouldn't change it for the world. I love this species. Um, I think a lot of biologists work with species that they don't necessarily have a strong attachment to, but I feel very lucky in the way that I do. I feel so connected to them and absolutely love it. 00:25:04 Speaker 1: Yeah, when it comes through, you can tell you enjoy it. 00:25:06 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:25:07 Speaker 1: As we wrap this series up, allow me to share a lasting thought with you. When we do these kind of episodes or series covering what I would refer to as easy-to-overlook species... Just know that I choose these topics for a very specific purpose. It's easy to do episodes on the big and in-your-face species like deer, turkeys, bear, redfish, etc. And obviously, we do those episodes. However, I think it's so important that we also take time to focus on these other species that do so often get overlooked sometimes. but also play big roles, very important roles in the habitats and ecosystems that all of us love. Case in point, this time around, the diamondback terrapin, the humble keeper of the salt marsh. They play a bigger role than I ever imagined. Look, I just saw a picture of a cool turtle on social media. I had no clue there was all this prohibition history and ecological importance with this turtle. I really, I didn't know. I found out when I got down here. And I think that, along with McKay's work with them, I think it's pretty dadgum cool. Everything has a role. That's one thing that I've learned in this show. Everything has a role. I don't know. It's almost like God had a plan when he made all this stuff. You know? I want to thank all of you for listening to Backwoods University, as well as Bear Grease and This Country Life. I hope you all know how much we appreciate it. We really do. If you like this episode, do us a big favor, share it with someone. And be sure to stick around because the next episode is going to be a real humdinger. And that's not a lie. There's a whole lot more on the way.