00:00:04 Speaker 1: Welcome to the first ever bonus drop of Backwoods University. As many of you know, Backwoods University is traditionally a bi weekly show. However, last week we put out an episode titled Hogy Boats, and in that show, we dove into the growing concern and controversy surrounding the commercial min haden fishing industry. And one of the things that I specifically notated in that show was that I wanted to be able to present both sides, but unfortunately I cannot find anyone from the commercial fishing side to speak with me. However, that has since changed. I have someone from the industry to talk to. And also, this is a very time sensitive issue. There are a few potential law and regulation changes in boats taking place this very Friday in Louisiana. 00:00:50 Speaker 2: So, as I. 00:00:51 Speaker 1: Promised, my aim is not to tell you how to think, but to simply present the facts in both sides of the story. So here's my conversation with the commercial fishing representatives. So, so, Ben Landry, you are the vice president of Public Affairs and you oversee regulatory communications for ocean harvesters. 00:01:11 Speaker 2: Is that that correct? 00:01:13 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's correct. So we have. 00:01:16 Speaker 4: Two facilities in the Gulf. We've won in Moss Pointe, Mississippi. We have won in Abbeyville, Louisiana. We also harvest been Hayden on the East coast in Reidville, Virginia. 00:01:26 Speaker 1: Okay, so what I'm gonna do? I have I have some questions that I want to ask you. But but at the point that this episode will come out, the original Pokey Boat episode will have been out for about a week, maybe a little bit more. And so one thing I wanted to be sure to do was just kind of give you an open floor if you you've had a chance to you know, see some of the stuff that came out, see some you know, hear the episode, hear what was talked about. So before I have you, before I have any of the questions that I have for you, I want to just give you an opportunity or to respond to any of the off that was covered in the episode as is. 00:02:02 Speaker 4: Okay, So you know, thank you, And you know, having watched the video, the podcast, and you know, live this life for twenty years, you know there's a lot of misconceptions about the fishery, and you know, the guys that you had in the video are incredibly passionate. I would never suggest that they don't know what they're talking about. I mean, they seem to be experts in their field. But I do think there's other perspectives, you know, the concept of well. First off, the one thing that just always gets me is this foreign ownership being a factor in any of this, and it's simply not the case. Both fishing companies, both ocean harvesterers, and our competitor who we've kind of been working shoulder to shoulder with on these regulatory issues, West Bank Fisheries, the both American ome American owned, American operated. The processing where we deliver Manhaden two. That company Omega Protein, and their's is Daybrook Fisheries. Those are owned by a Canadian company in a South African company. 00:03:16 Speaker 3: But in terms of the fishing, the vessels that people see, those are American owned. 00:03:22 Speaker 4: And you know, I heard one of your guests just you know, it always just strikes me as kind of a scare tactic, this idea that foreign entities are coming and taking us men Hayden, And one, it's not true. In two, it hasn't changed in any way the fishing operation. I worked for the company prior to the acquisition, at least the Cook acquisition in twenty seventeen. And I can show you our fisheries prosecuted the exact same. I can't speak for the other company, but you know we harvest the same fashion. We we don't. There hasn't been a change in philosophy of becoming more aggressive or you know, let's uh, you know, create or be damned with user conflicts. 00:04:12 Speaker 3: That's not what's going on here. 00:04:15 Speaker 4: I mean, there's Americans working there flying the US flag, and you know, when we're perceived as outsiders, uh, it's a bit offensive to us. So that's one thing, I you know, just off the top. I wanted to mention. 00:04:28 Speaker 1: One thing that that I that I appreciated from the guys that I heard from, because there was three different individuals on that episode, and all three of them weighed in and saying like, hey, our in engineers not to you know, because it's not not to shut anyone down or cost anyone. They're very clear in saying that, and I thought that was respectable of them. One of the things that they were they were pushing for is that the the or the hot the hotter of the topics is this buffer zone, right and We saw some of that as well in the YouTube shorts, in the social media post. You know, maybe there's a lot of talk in folks wanting to extend. 00:05:10 Speaker 2: The buffer zone. 00:05:11 Speaker 1: I know there's talk now about wanting to take the buffer zone away. Why is that so crucial to your operation? What is that buffer zone? How does it affect you? 00:05:22 Speaker 3: Well, this is what this is all about. 00:05:25 Speaker 4: To me again, I worked, I started, I came over to a Mega Protein and now you know, I'm on the fishing side in two thousand and five, and we didn't have any of these issues until that twenty twenty and it was all about where you can fish and to us, I mean, the simple question is that's where the manhaden are. 00:05:50 Speaker 3: You know. Unfortunately, that's where the prize. 00:05:54 Speaker 4: Sports fisher are as well, close to shore. So you just have an inherent user conflict. I mean I grew up. You probably passed through my hometown when you went down to grand Isle. I grew up in Thibodeau in Lafouche Parish. So I've been to grand Isle countless times and have recreationally harvested fish for as long as I can. Where my dad goes as often as he can user conflicts occur within sectors, right. You know, if you're fishing and you see two other boats come near you that are recreational fishing, you get kind of upset too. We obviously have a much bigger footprint there because you can see us on the horizon a little bit faster, a little bit easier. But I just think this has always been about user conflicts of moving us moving those boats away from the coast, and you know, there hasn't been any data that illustrates that that's better than something else, and particularly if that's where the bulk of the menhad a going to be, then we believe we should have the right to harvest in those waters. You know, we saw the buffer zone get moved back a little bit and then you know, obviously Grandu has the much bigger buffer because there was some acknowledgment that that's kind of a recreational fishing hotspot. There was no disagreement from the fishery. There was a gentleman's agreement to stay three miles off of the island itself dating back probably two decades. So getting that into the code a few years ago, you know, it was something that we didn't fight or anything we honestly kind of hope that it would happen, you know. And then another buffer was put in front of Holly Beach and Cameron Parish in southwest Louisiana to protect those tourism dollars because we understand that, but you know, we believe that you know, outside of those areas and other recreational fishing hotspots, you know, this company should have every right to harvest those fish as anyone else. And you know, we would always ask for respect full fishing out there. And I talked to my captains a lot, and I say, listen, you can legally go catch that fish, but you know, if there's a bunch of boats around, maybe consider passing on that set and go and find them elsewhere. We don't go out looking for for user conflicts. And yeah, I think that's something that you know, just from communication, we could all improve. 00:08:23 Speaker 3: On, right. 00:08:24 Speaker 1: And so that's what that leads me to something that like I have to ask about probably one of the more notable ones. I think it's about like a you know, a couple months back, it was recent and it was before I mean as well, before I had even started working on this episode. There was a video some guys were tarp and fishing I think a couple of tarpating up on the net. Obviously I wasn't there, but like the record from from several of the folks that were there was that the story went that there was communication between them and the commercial boats and there was there was unication going, hey, we're fishing tarpin right here, you know, please stay out something along those lines, and then they came in any way. 00:09:07 Speaker 2: And tarpin were killed. That's how that's how it came across. Yeah, I heard, I heard the story right right. 00:09:16 Speaker 1: How I mean, you look at instances like that, uh, and it's like there's got to be a way one like, was that was it right for those guys to carry out their commercial fishing in that way? Is that a kind of instance that can be avoided? Because that's that's where like those instances as far as like if I'm if I'm taking off the unbiased hat and I'm trying to say, you know, if I'm on the side of commercial fishing, I'm like, hey, guys, we want to avoid that one. That would be my standpoint. But explain to me from your perspective, like how something like that happens do you try to avoid something like that? 00:09:56 Speaker 2: Is that a worry? Just just kind of break that down for me. 00:09:59 Speaker 4: Well, no, that's great, and I appreciate the opportunity to respond. The vessels that there were, as I remember, there were two Menhaden vessels that came nearby some Tarpaid fishers fishermen. And I will say this, those two vessels were operated by whom I believe are the best Man Hayden captains in the Gulf. I mean, these aren't green fishermen. These are really impressive fishermen. So I called him and said, what give me the scoop? 00:10:33 Speaker 3: What happened? 00:10:34 Speaker 4: Because we track where every boat is every second of every day. We have it on GPS. You know, our vice president of fishing operations looks. 00:10:42 Speaker 3: At it like you know, a risk board. He just he looks at his computer all day. So I called him and he. 00:10:47 Speaker 4: Said that they had seen they had been put on those Man Hayden by a Spoder aircraft. They were unaware of the Tarpin fishermen nearby, but they saw the boats. They said, there were about three quarters of a mile away from the Tarpin fishermen and they made their sets. They made two sets, and I guess that's when the chatter on the radio occurred. I don't know, you know, I'm not gonna I don't know what happened on the radio. But they made their two sets, and then they saw they had a number of sharks and I think maybe one or two tarpin is what the captains told me they observed. And then they saw the recreational boats come to them. You know, so they're three quarters of a mile away and the REG boats are coming to them with their cameras out and filming, and I guess that's where they got their footage. They each boat made two sets and then they took off, so it's probably there maybe there an hour. They said they could see that the reg boats had stayed in that area for a while. I guess trying to I don't know what they were doing, but he said that he thought they were trying to see if any tarpin floated. And he said that he saw the shark and the tarpain when he basically rolled out his net like after the set was over, and he you know, unlatched it and brought it back in. He said that he saw the tarpain and and the sharks swim away. So he did not report any any dead tarpaun or shark. But you know, I think that's just you know, what gets caught in there. But I do think, you know, I would suggest to to both sides, you know, we can throttle down this this rhetoric and this this animosity, and my guys can probably do a little better in some instances. And you know, I know the recreational guys. You know, I've heard reports and I've seen video of them come and look for trouble near us. And you know, I think sometimes this this rhetoric just gets too high. 00:12:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, man, man and it and I realized that not from and not speaking of I will say if it did come across in the episode, like all three of the guys that I talked to remained a respectable tone the entire time when talking about the industry. They acknowledge there's conflict there. Where I did see some some vitriol was on social media, you know, I saw some definitely. 00:13:15 Speaker 2: Like who this is a hot topic, you know. 00:13:18 Speaker 1: But the thing is, man, it's like and and again I tried my best to address that in the original episode, like this is a complex issue. I understand that you know, there's there's guys on the recreational side, there's also charter guides. They're thinking about the resource or thinking about their jobs. What you're doing on the commercial side. Uh, there's jobs involved, there's livelihoods there. 00:13:38 Speaker 2: I understand that. 00:13:39 Speaker 1: Where I'm trying to find is, like I guess the thing that I was talking about with the other guys, like, is there a way in your opinion, is there a way where you can where you can find a way to operate that minimizes conflict? So you know whether the whether that Tarpin died or not, you know, whether is there a way that we can minimize those sort of events where the recreational guys, the charter fishing guides can be happy. There's we can look forward to, like, hey, what we're doing here for the resource is sustainable. Is there a way where we can find that ground for everybody to work. 00:14:19 Speaker 3: I mean, we hope to. We hope to. 00:14:21 Speaker 4: So you know, as you noted, the Manhaden fishery has been you know, harvesting in the Atlantic probably going back one hundred and forty five years. In the golf it's probably closer to eighty or ninety years again, we never had these conflicts until a handful of years ago. 00:14:43 Speaker 3: And I don't know. 00:14:46 Speaker 4: My sense is that recreational fishermen weren't just biting their tongue that whole time. You know, I don't know what changed, and if it was a new narrative or you know, a special interest group on their side said hey, we should make this an issue. I don't know, but I do know that we try to adhere to the best available science when we conduct our fishing operations, and that starts with most recent stock assessment. You know, what is being harvested is that at a sustainable level, or key predators being receiving enough menhaden and their diet so that their populations are not are not dipping. And I think those are the you know, the questions we need to ask. Secondly, by catch a huge issue, right, I mean that that's that the user conflict in bycatch is what I hear the most of. And you know, as you talked about in your in your episode, you know, a really landmark bycatch report was released, you know, a few months ago, and you know it you could get anything you wanted out of that, right, you know, recreational anglers saw something and they found, you know, oh, bycatch is problematic. I think the commercial side said, well, listen, we were told that red drum bycatch was through the roof, and this survey indicated that perhaps it's not. You know, so I think to me, it's do or the regulators being kept up at night because of too many fish being removed or bycatch, and you know, I guess we have not seen that, you know, that reaction from the fisheries managers and the golf that. You know, I believe them to be unbiased and independent, and if they don't believe that there's a there's a concern or a need for extra regulation, then let's go fish. Then it goes back on the sectors to make sure that you know, user conflicts or minimized as best we can. 00:16:58 Speaker 3: That would be the way that I would answer that. 00:17:04 Speaker 1: So when you saw I think the number I without looking at the whole you know, through the numbers that entire report, I think it was like twenty two thousand breeds as redfish. So you as an industry, like y'all thought, I mean, obviously y'all just think that that's not a very concerning number as far as the population as a whole in population effects. That's not a concerning number. 00:17:27 Speaker 3: Now, well I think we it was. 00:17:29 Speaker 4: It was a number, and it was a goal to shoot for, to try to reduce. So, you know, one thing we learned, I mean, this bycatch report is the big part of it is obviously understanding what's in the bycatch, but we looked at it as an industry of what can be approved, and we learned that rollover bycatch, you know, bycatch it stays in the net the whole time throughout the set had a success rate, you know, eighty six percent, eighty five, eighty six percent if it stays in the net throughout the pumping. If it goes into the pump and onto the vessel, survivability was incredibly low. So what can we do as an industry to make sure that those fish don't go in the in the fish hose. So before the season started, we configured a different hose cage so that there were more bars to ensure that larger fish bump off of those bars and don't get sucked up the hose. We then throughout the year we just kind of kept tinkering with it. You know what if we ed at a bar here and I don't think that the final story on that is told. But our goal is to have a host cage that when it's in operation that twenty two thousand number reduces so that they stay in the fishole and then when you let go of the net and the set is over, these guys the bycatchup scientists stayed and they said, are we seeing these fish swim away? And they did at a at a rate of about eighty six percent survival rate. So that was kind of the impetus of the industry trying to improve our operations to lower that twenty two and again we're just talking about red drum but for all fish, lowering that number and keeping them in the water because we did find out that and you know, hand up, we didn't. We thought that they had a higher survivability if it went on the vessel and went off to the other side, but it doesn't. So you know, we've got to do our best to keep them in that water as long as possible. 00:19:57 Speaker 1: So y'all are y'all are like seeking out ways to reduce that by catch and reduce mortality. 00:20:04 Speaker 4: So again, there was not a standardized hose cage even within the plants, like I work in the Abbeyville facility. The vessels had different cages between themselves, and then obviously we had a different one than the west Bank vessels out of Empire and Moss Point. So we worked with them pretty closely over at west Bank and we said, let's design a cage that is standardized throughout the fishery. And I think we're still just tinkering with it to see what works and what doesn't. Now, the season wrapped up this week, but we were able to run with some different designs over the course of this season to try and reduce that gotcha. 00:20:50 Speaker 1: Going back to buffer zone, like, I know there's a lot of talk. I think there's something coming up on this next Friday that implications for buffer zones everything I know. Like again, going back to the guys that I interviewed on the recreational side, A lot of their a lot of the factor that they were hinging on on finding common common ground was that buffer zone. Right are y'all are you in favor of maintaining a half mile buffer zone? Do you think there shouldn't be any buffer zone except for in a few areas like Grand Isle? 00:21:26 Speaker 2: What are your views on buffer zones? 00:21:29 Speaker 4: So we support a proposal that would keep the half mile buffer in place, and then with the exception of a handful of areas that were identified that are less recreational fishing hotspots. So you know, I've seen online a great deal and listen where the where the villain being attacked most of the time. But you know, it was never going. We've never suggested on a coast wide basis moving in from from a half mile to a quarter. We what we did is identified areas that when we're out fishing, do you see recreational anglers in this area? 00:22:09 Speaker 3: No? 00:22:10 Speaker 4: Do you see camps? You know, if it's if it's marsh. Could you move that buffer from a half to a quarter in those areas, but maintain the bigger areas that recreational anglers love. That would not change at all under what we suggested. Now what wildlife from fisheries is ultimately going to do. But listen, it would have been easy to say all three hundred linear miles of Louisiana coastline move into a quarter, but we didn't do that. We took a concerted approach to say, you know, let's pick our spots here. You know, and I think what the map that we had kind of worked up was roughly maybe a order of those miles would go from a half to a quarter and everything else would stay the same as is. 00:23:07 Speaker 1: M Yeah, so I guess the question there is and the reason it came to mind is that going back to that by catch study is I think, I mean, it is important to notate that that study was taking place when those are those buffer places, that are those buffer zones that are now so one one could reasonably be presumed like, hey, if we reduce these buffer zones in any stretch like that could that couldn't mean that bycatch is going to go up. 00:23:35 Speaker 4: I don't think it would go up in any order of magnitude from what we've understood. And you know, as we understand that bycatch reportant, again, these guys run our vessels for a year, right, you would almost have to go out miles to see any material bycatch reduction, you know, So it's you know, I think we're talking at a half mile of a quarter mile. My understanding of what the bycatch report said is that you would not see a dramatic difference in that quarter of a mile. 00:24:06 Speaker 1: And so and you're like, if they wanted to do like a three mile wide buffer zone like they were talking about in the first episode. That's not feasible, is that what you're saying. 00:24:18 Speaker 4: No, it really isn't. And and man haden. So what what man Aiden do is they come out in the early morning and then during the bulk of the day they go inside the marsh. Because if you're a man Hayden, you're always in a school, right, you're always schooled up. A single Manhayden's going to be gobbled up by a predator. And then you know, late in the afternoon they come out again. 00:24:44 Speaker 3: And you know, do we. 00:24:47 Speaker 4: Catch fish outside of three miles of course, but the bulk of those fish or I would say, you know near shore, and you know that's where they are. So you know, we just feel that we have the same right. It's a livelihood to us. And listen to those guys, they seem to acknowledge it. 00:25:13 Speaker 3: I'll give you the I'll give them. 00:25:15 Speaker 4: Credit in that regard that you know, nobody said but shut them down. But I think if you were three miles an out, even one mile and out, I think you would see a dramatic reduction in fish catch. And again, this is how these guys get paid. They get paid on fish catch. And I've just and I hope this is not, you know, offensive to your audience, but I've always suggested that a man's livelihood should, you know, at least be treated equally, if not more preferred, than another man's hobby. Now, I understand charter fishing is different, and you know, we're. 00:25:52 Speaker 3: Happy to work with those guys. 00:25:53 Speaker 4: But if these guys don't catch fish between Monday and Friday, they don't get paid. And you know that's incredibly important to me. 00:26:02 Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah, I guess. 00:26:04 Speaker 1: And it's like the questions I have coming from the other side are it's like, well, or the arguments that I hear going the other way, it's like, well, at the rate of the way they're catching fish, the amount of men haden they're bringing in, the bycatch, the habitat loss or habitat degradation, Like there's concerns around the longevity is that, you know what I mean, like the longevity of like how long can is Do you believe the way that y'all are harvesting min haden, now, do you believe that that is sustainable for not just for min hayden, but for the industry for the entire fishery for the Gulf in that area. 00:26:43 Speaker 4: Well, I do, and I think the proof is in the you know, the fact that we're a very old fishery. 00:26:50 Speaker 3: That we've been doing this. 00:26:51 Speaker 4: And listen, I wasn't around in the sixties and seventies, but when there were no buffer zone and they were, you know, double the amount of pokey boat captains out there, I'm certain that they got right up on that beach. You know, now that there is a greater scrutiny on you, I think you're seeing. 00:27:10 Speaker 3: That this degree of harvest is not unusual. It's been. 00:27:18 Speaker 4: It's been occurring in the Gulf. In Louisiana. There are three golf plants now and just in the nineteen nineties there were six or seven. And you know, they've always been around and Pogy is still around. And you got to remember Louisiana calls itself Louisiana Sportsman's Paradise, and that Moniker came when they were double the Pogy plants or triple the Pogy plants and double the vessels. So I think the attention being shown to the fishery now, you know, we should always be harvesting stainably and responsibly on the water. But I think if you say, if you saw a collapse in the fishery at any time, you would have probably seen it when there were more vessels in greater effort, you know, out on the water. 00:28:15 Speaker 1: If you kind of kind of final question here for you, Ben, you can tell me if my assumption is wrong. But I would reasonably assume that, like the kind of the amount of conflict that's happening between commercial and recreational is not ideal for anybody, right, Like, nobody's like, man, we love this more conflict. No one's doing that, right. So when I talked to the guys on the recreational side and the charter guys, like they drew up their idea of like how we could solve this. 00:28:50 Speaker 2: Issue where you know, we know the resources. 00:28:53 Speaker 1: Okay, we can do our jobs and the commercial guys can do their jobs. On your end, what is your eye deal scenario for sustainable take operating a commercial fishery and minimize conflict with recreational guys? 00:29:08 Speaker 2: What would you draw up if you had a magical No? 00:29:11 Speaker 4: Well, thanks, I mean I would I would love to see this die down. I mean, I think the rhetoric's gotten out of control. I think if everyone acknowledged and respected the other party too often, where you know, I see and again I'm incredibly sensitive to this. The fishermen that that I represent or vilified and we need to take you know, take the pressure out of that kettle. 00:29:38 Speaker 3: Now is there more? Is there more. 00:29:43 Speaker 4: Steps that could occur? Like we're we're trying to reduce the bycatch by adding you know, different hose configurations. We've the companies combined to spend over three million dollars on getting stronger, different nets to reduce the number of fish spills and net tears. And you've seen that reduced dramatically, you know, probably I think a few years ago there were you know, fifteen to twenty maybe now this year, I think there were two in those instances where you know, the vessel just the net got under the vessel. So, you know, I think we're doing what we can to be as responsible as possible on the water, and we abide by all the regulations that are put on us. 00:30:36 Speaker 3: So I think that's where we are. 00:30:37 Speaker 4: I mean, all we can do is control what we do, play within the rules, and we always have an open door. I've met with the recreational anglers these groups, you know, CCA members listen to a number of those guys I consider friends. We always have an open door. Those discussions have not led to any any great place, but we're always willing to do it. You know, sometimes I think perhaps some of these groups don't, you know, they kind of like the the fervor and the campaign. But we always have an open door and we'll meet with anybody to try and figure this out because it is better for everyone when there's not as much tension out there in the water, because ultimately it's about safety and we don't want anything to escalate to a bad place. 00:31:29 Speaker 1: Well, man, like I said, I can tell you what I'm for and like when I when I do this show, especially when I do. 00:31:34 Speaker 2: A formal episode. 00:31:35 Speaker 1: I've said it all the time on several episodes, like my job is not to tell anyone how to think. My job is to try my best to present both sides and let people make up their own mind what they want to do. Like, one thing that I am unequivocally advocate and advocate for is sustainable habitats are not you know, the safety and the longevity of our natural resources. So with all that being said, man, unless you have anything else to add, I am I'm appreciative of your time, and I thank you for being willing to come on and share you know, this side of it. 00:32:07 Speaker 4: Sure happy to listen. You you're a Missippi. 00:32:10 Speaker 2: Guy, right, yep, yep, born and raised. 00:32:13 Speaker 4: Listen, you have a you have an open door at our Moss Point facility if you ever want to come over there obviously in Abbyville, Louisiana, if you ever want to come. You know, we believe as a company we have a great story to tell. We just try to seek audiences to tell it too. So if you ever, you know, down on the coast and and have a few hours, just give us a call. We'd love to toy you around. 00:32:35 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. 00:32:37 Speaker 1: Sure, thank you, Ben all right, man, have it going, and that's going to wrap us up with this bonus episode. If you have it yet, be sure to also go back and listen to the Pokey Boat episodes so you can be equipped with both perspectives. And if you care to do any further research, you can find more of those published studies at the. 00:32:53 Speaker 2: T RCP website. 00:32:55 Speaker 1: I want to thank all of you for listening to Backwards University as well as bear grease in this country life. It means a whole lot to all of us here, and 00:33:02 Speaker 2: We'll see all next work