00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife, wild places, and the people who dedicate their lives to conserving both. Big shout out to Onyx Hunt for their support of this podcast. I'm your host, Lake Pickle, and on today's episode, we are in the southern marshes of the Gulf learning about the only brackish water turtle in the United States. We're going to learn about the unique history of this animal, as well as the vital role that they play in these special ecosystems. You want me to grab anything else? 00:00:41 Speaker 2: If you'll grab that yellow bag, that'd be great. 00:00:43 Speaker 1: Don't trust me with carrying the baby turtle. Terrapin, sorry. It's late summer, and I'm on the Alabama Gulf Coast. This morning, I've met up with McKay Sarkowski, a grad student from Auburn University. We're in the process of unloading two kayaks, paddles, and a whole lot of gear, most of which I have no idea what it is. And yes, you did hear that correctly, a baby turtle. But more on that later. 00:01:09 Speaker 2: It's the only brackish water turtle in the United States, so they're pretty unique. 00:01:17 Speaker 1: It's the only brackish turtle in the United States? 00:01:20 Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 00:01:20 Speaker 1: Wow. 00:01:21 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they also only range on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts of the United States, which is pretty cool, so they're unique to the U.S. 00:01:31 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:01:31 Speaker 2: That's why they're pretty popular in the pet trade, too, overseas. 00:01:35 Speaker 1: Of course they are. I feel like we're learning a lot already. The only brackish water turtle in the entire country. I must say, I didn't even know we had a single brackish water turtle until this episode. I just thought there were freshwater turtles and sea turtles. And also the fact that they range from the Atlantic to the Gulf Coast where we find ourselves today. And that they're unique to the U.S. as well as popular in the illegal pet trade. A lot going on for just one tiny terrapin to say the least. As McKay gets ready to launch her kayak, and I get ready to launch my kayak without hopefully falling in, I'll promise you one thing right off the bat. This turtle, this diamondback terrapin, has a much more interesting and bigger story than you would ever imagine. 00:02:28 Speaker 2: Good to go? 00:02:28 Speaker 1: We're good. 00:02:29 Speaker 2: Sweet. So I set two on the east end and one on the west end. Technically it's six traps because there's a trap on each end of it. 00:02:44 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:02:47 Speaker 2: So we'll kind of, I was thinking we kind of just make a loop because the nesting beach is on the way. Yeah. And we'll release this little guy on a beach down there. 00:02:57 Speaker 1: Whatever you think. All right. 00:02:58 Speaker 2: It's kind of just my, I make this route just about every day. 00:03:04 Speaker 1: McKay and I set out to make her everyday loop and check the traps. And while we're paddling along, I started almost immediately pelting her with all kinds of questions about these turtles. Starting from the very top. Because we all need a basic understanding of this animal, seeing as many of us may not have even heard of it until today. And what its function is in this ecosystem. What does it do for this marsh? 00:03:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they live in the brackish water creeks and the tidal creeks. They have pretty small home range, so they spend pretty much their entire life in the same creeks. From when they hatch, they'll lay their eggs where they hatch from, typically, and they'll live here. They feed on the snails and crabs and mollusks in the creeks, so they're kind of the... I joke that they're like the keepers of the salt marsh because without the terrapins... you know the salt marsh would collapse and i think a lot of people don't realize that they're kind of like the the silent yeah like the silent thing that's keeping the marsh here because. 00:04:13 Speaker 1: Yeah elaborate that on me for me real quick so so like we did that crawfish episode a few months back yeah and uh like one of the biggest points of feedback that we got there is like uh A lot of folks, myself included, didn't realize how big of an ecological role a tiny little crawfish played. So, I mean, one saying that any species, but saying anything is the keeper of the marsh or is potentially keeping an entire ecosystem from collapsing. How are they doing that? 00:04:45 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, any ecosystem has a balance. Everything plays its role. And for the diamondback terrapin, they're feeding on these snails and these mollusks. And those snails and things are feeding on the grass, right? And so if the diamondback terrapins were gone, their prey would overpopulate and destroy the grass. And so without the grass, you don't have a salt marsh. And so it's kind of keeping that balance of, you know, it regulates the plants, the smaller things that you don't think about and Often people don't think about it because you can't even see them. I mean, and you see this water, you go an inch under it, you can't see anything. 00:05:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, low visibility for sure. 00:05:34 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:05:37 Speaker 1: Interesting. 00:05:37 Speaker 2: Yeah, so. 00:05:39 Speaker 1: Everything has a role. 00:05:40 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you don't think about, I mean, this water is pretty shallow at the deeper points in the creeks. It's only up to my waist. 00:05:48 Speaker 1: Okay. 00:05:48 Speaker 2: And so they really are like the main predator in these creeks. And you don't really think about a small turtle being a big predator, but in this kind of ecosystem, they really are. 00:05:58 Speaker 1: Yeah. I wouldn't have associated them with predator at all. 00:06:01 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:06:06 Speaker 1: The keepers of the salt marsh. Now, not only is that a pretty sweet name, but let's take a minute to talk about what that actually means. A salt marsh is one of the most productive and functionally important habitats in the entire Gulf ecosystem. Heck, You and I know this already from what we learned all the way back in some of the original golf episodes or the pokey boat episodes that we did almost a year ago. They are an absolute goldmine for biological diversity, as well as very important habitat for species such as shrimp, blue crab, redfish, speckled trout, flounder. And that's just a few of the high notes, just scratching the surface, really. And if you want to hear a real crazy stat, listen to this. NOAA, which stands for National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, they're a big authority in this space, and other Gulf agencies, put somewhere around 90% plus of Gulf commercial seafood species spend part of their life cycle in marsh or estuarine habitat. Meaning, there is a direct connection between marsh health and the entire Gulf seafood economy. And that is not even mentioning the importance of this to the recreational side such as fishing. To put it plainly, the marsh and the health of it is a big deal. So, if something has the nickname Keepers of the Salt Marsh, I don't know about y'all, but it makes me want to pay attention to it. 00:07:34 Speaker 4: You know? 00:07:35 Speaker 1: And before we dive back into this conversation, I want to take a second to at least audibly describe what this turtle or terrapin physically looks like. Because if you've never seen this critter or heard of it, you're probably picturing a freshwater turtle or a sea turtle. And I'm here to tell you, it looks like neither of those. I mean, it has a shell and all the regular turtle stuff, but it has a very distinct look. Again, if you get a chance to catch this episode on YouTube, it's worth it because these are wild looking animals. Its shell has concentric growth rings that form a pyramid or diamond-shaped pattern, hence the name diamondback terrapin. And the skin of this turtle is one of its more distinctive features. It can be pale gray to almost white and covered with these black or gray spots that looks like it's speckled across its legs, neck, and face. There's not another turtle in America that has that speckled pattern across it. And the most distinctive feature of all, the thing that's most likely to grab your attention if you ever see pictures or video of one, is its head, face, and, well, beak. Their jaw, or beak, is notably wide-set with a kind of strong look, and it's built for crushing shellfish, snails, and crabs, which make up a whole lot of their diet. And on females, down here in the Gulf, the beak is especially more pronounced, and it's also white. I know what I'm describing to you may sound wild, but I'm telling you, pull it up for yourself. They're a cool-looking critter. But anyway, McKay and I were paddling along, and it did not take long before she shared with me a bit of cultural history involving our society and these turtles. And look, I know I say this a lot, but I just didn't see this part of the story coming. It's been one of the most entertaining and fun parts about doing this whole show. It just seems like no matter where I look or what specific animal I decide to study, there's always some cool story involving us and our relationship with that animal. And this is no exception. 00:09:27 Speaker 2: They have a really interesting history in the United States. So at one point they were farmed really, really heavily and considered a culinary delicacy. 00:09:38 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:09:39 Speaker 2: So I'm sure you've heard of like turtle soup. 00:09:41 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's how, so like I know in Florida and even coastal Mississippi, like gopher tortoise was a hot menu item for a while. Yeah. 00:09:48 Speaker 2: So they were almost, I mean, farmed and hunted to extinction at one point. But diamondback terrapins were actually saved by Prohibition. Yeah, so Prohibition saved the diamondback terrapin. It's a really, really interesting story. So there was a dish that was really popular before Prohibition that incorporated diamondback terrapin meat and alcohol. And when Prohibition... came about, those kinds of meals, those soups fell out of favor a little bit. And so people weren't farming terrapins as heavily anymore because they couldn't access alcohol. And so that's when populations finally started to bounce back a little bit. 00:10:36 Speaker 1: No kidding. 00:10:37 Speaker 2: Yeah, and commercial harvest became illegal also, which helped a lot. A lot of those terrapins that were farmed were just released into the wild. And so we're still kind of seeing the effects of that and trying to understand from a genetic standpoint, a population genetic standpoint, what that did to the populations. 00:10:56 Speaker 1: Now, I don't think it's a stretch to say that the general history of prohibition in this country is well known and documented. However, did any of y'all know that prohibition saved the diamondback terrapin? Can y'all believe that one? I mean, it's crazy. Think about it. Allow me to kind of set a scene for y'all. It was said that not only was this diamondback terrapin a popular dish, but it was popular in like high class upper echelon restaurants. It was seen in some circles as a status symbol just to be able to order it. I obviously don't know what it was like to dine in one of those fancy schmancy restaurants back then, but through extensive research and excellent typecasting, I think I can draw up a scene for all of us pretty well so we can get a really clear idea. Y'all ready? Here we go. Picture this one with me. The year is 1920, right after Prohibition has gone into effect across the entire country. A stately gentleman walks inside of the restaurant. His heart is set on his fancy dinner he's about to indulge in. He walks inside and immediately sees the high ceilings and heavy crystal chandeliers hanging throughout the room. He looks around and sees dark wood paneling with very elaborate and ornate plaster molding. Waiters are moving about in tuxedos like a choreographed dance line, and he makes his way over to his table, being serenaded by a live-string ensemble. The man sits down at the table, covered with a white tablecloth and genuine silverware. One of those settings with so many forks, spoons, and knives that you're not really sure which one to start with. The man adjusts his bowtie and looks up to see a waiter walking his direction. And while I cannot be for certain... I imagine the conversation went something like this. 00:12:44 Speaker 3: Good evening, sir. Welcome to the Taste of Terrapin restaurant. Might I interest you in this evening's specialty, the Diamondback Terrapin Stew? 00:12:54 Speaker 1: You don't have to ask me twice. I've been dreaming about that Terrapin Stew since Tuesday. 00:12:59 Speaker 3: Load me up. 00:13:01 Speaker 1: Very good, sir. 00:13:02 Speaker 3: Should I mention, it's going to taste a little different tonight. 00:13:04 Speaker 1: Than you remember. 00:13:05 Speaker 2: Different? 00:13:07 Speaker 1: Different how? 00:13:08 Speaker 4: Well, sir... The whole country's been made dry. 00:13:12 Speaker 2: Dry? 00:13:13 Speaker 4: It rained all week. No, sir. 00:13:15 Speaker 3: Dry as in no sherry, no Madeira, no brandy, nothing but sweet tea on account of Congress. 00:13:22 Speaker 4: You mean to. 00:13:22 Speaker 1: Tell me Congress has ruined my favorite stew in the world? 00:13:28 Speaker 4: I'm afraid Congress didn't think about. 00:13:29 Speaker 3: Terrapin, sir. 00:13:30 Speaker 1: Cancel the stew. I'll order a pork chop. 00:13:33 Speaker 4: Right away, sir. I'll go tell the chef that the party is over. 00:13:37 Speaker 1: And just like that, the heavy demand for diamondback terrapin stew meat was gone. 00:13:42 Speaker 2: Poof. 00:13:43 Speaker 1: Eliminated. Just like that. I told y'all, this is a fascinating story. And I also told y'all, I casted the actors for this perfectly. But anyway, moving on. 00:14:01 Speaker 2: So today we're looking to just catch some diamondback terrapins. We will likely only catch females. This population is really female biased. I've only caught one male here in the last summer. I've seen two. One of them was a mortality. He was caught in a crab trap and drowned, unfortunately. Crab trap bycatch mortality is a huge problem for diamondback terrapins, especially for the males because the females are typically too big to get in there. So it's kind of selecting for males specifically, which is unfortunate and probably a big reason why this population is so strongly female biased. 00:14:48 Speaker 1: It's because of bycatch, you think? Interesting. 00:14:51 Speaker 2: There's lots of theories. Another one is that turtles, reptiles in general, don't have sex chromosomes like humans do. So when they're developing in their egg... whether it's going to be a male or a female is determined by the temperature that they incubate. And so as temperatures overall get warmer, it's producing more females. So higher temperatures produce female eggs. And so we're seeing it could be a mix of things that's causing hardly any males in the population. It's kind of just theories. 00:15:29 Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated when backwoods episodes find a way to intertwine without me really meaning them to. Already we've been able to reference this episode to the original Gulf episode, as well as the pogey boat episode, talking about the importance of the marsh. And now we're hearing the term bycatch. And this bycatch isn't related to pogey boats at all, but we do all very well know what that term means. Non-target species that end up in nets or traps. And also, McKay talking about warming temperatures potentially affecting the diamondback terrapin population being female biased. I'm reminded of not too far back when we were just talking about black-bellied whistling ducks, a tropical waterfowl species historically found in southern and central America, now expanding into North America due to, some believe, warming temperatures. Are these connected to the same cause? I don't have a clue. They could be, but it's fascinating nonetheless. 00:16:25 Speaker 2: So they have a... There's so much we don't know about them, and they've got a really, really interesting history. And so, yeah, and they're right in a lot of people's backyards. 00:16:35 Speaker 1: So that's like... It doesn't... It's wild, because that... I mean, not that exact phrase, but that exact sentiment pops up so often. 00:16:42 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:16:43 Speaker 1: People talking, they're like, man, there's just so much we don't know. 00:16:46 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:16:47 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I'm out here interacting with them daily, and there's so much I don't know, and so... We, I mean, even in just this population, so we were marking them for a long time and got to the point where we weren't capturing any new individuals. And so we were pretty confident that we had marked a really good amount of them here. And this summer I've been here, hardly been catching any that we've marked before. I've been catching a lot of new individuals. So we're not really sure where they're coming from or... what's going on with that and so we're hoping the the blood sampling and genetic information will kind of answer some of those questions gotcha so this is one of my traps right here okay um so you can see it's got two hoops become bikes on either end it's kind of like a funnel yeah and it's connected by a net that's got a lead line that lays on the bottom and a float line that stays on the top And so essentially what we do is any terrapin that's coming through, they hit the line and have to go either way, left or right, when they're trying to go through the tidal creek and make their way into the funnel and they just can't get out. We don't have to bait them or anything. It's not a super common way to catch terrapins. On the Atlantic coast, a lot of people use modified crab traps. So a crab trap with a chimney on it, basically, so they can get up and get air. 00:18:16 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:18:18 Speaker 2: It just doesn't work for us on the Gulf Coast, so this is not a traditional way of trapping terrapins. It's kind of just what we found works for us. I know some other people in the Gulf do it like this, too. 00:18:30 Speaker 1: As we pull up to this uniquely looking terrapin trap, McKay told me in the nicest way that she could that my help was not needed and that the trap-checking process would go a lot quicker and smoother if the folks with experience handled it. So basically, stay out of the way and just watch, Lake, which is... What I do. Okay. 00:18:48 Speaker 2: So what I do, I've got poles just kind of keeping it in place, but I also keep a float in here in case for some reason a tide gets high. It always leaves a pocket of air for the terrapin if there's one in here. 00:19:03 Speaker 1: Gotcha. Yeah. So they're not going to suffocate. 00:19:06 Speaker 3: Nope. 00:19:07 Speaker 2: And so they kind of just hang out in here till I come and check the trap every day. So I'll just pull. So nothing in this one. Sometimes they're sneaky and they hide down there. So we'll just kind of put it back. So I usually just kind of check the line. I get catfish sometimes. Yeah. 00:19:32 Speaker 1: As I watch McKay work through checking this first trap, I am intrigued by its design and how it works. Basically a net cutting off a small canal in the marsh. The Terrapins, trying to go through the canal, hit the wall of the net and are then forced to go left or right if they want to proceed, which then funnels them into one of the modified hoop nets on either side. Again, you can see this with your own eyes if you watch this episode. But upon checking the second hoop net of trap number one, McKay found inside it what she refers to as the bane of her existence, a large blue crab. They too make a habit of winding up in these terrapin traps, and when they do, They can cause quite a mess, which in turn leads McKay to the job of getting that crab out when it's already in an ornery mood. It was a sight to see. No, let go. 00:20:23 Speaker 2: Told you, they're my bane of my existence. Not a diamondback terrapin. 00:20:30 Speaker 1: No, just your standard old blue crab. Luke McFadden would be just pumped. 00:20:37 Speaker 2: I get plenty of them. 00:20:39 Speaker 1: After a whole lot of pulling and wrestling around with that crab, all while trying to avoid getting pinched in the finger, McKay was finally able to wrangle that lively and frankly frustrated crab free from the net. Look at that thing. Crazy. 00:20:56 Speaker 2: Sometimes when I get male, or when I get a female in there, it attracts a bunch of the males. 00:21:01 Speaker 3: Oh. See you later. 00:21:04 Speaker 4: Off he goes. 00:21:04 Speaker 2: All right. 00:21:08 Speaker 1: We continued our path through the marsh. Let me tell y'all, it is beautiful out there. And we checked another trap, but unfortunately, all it contained were two very frustrated rails. They're small inquisitive birds found in marsh areas. And then we continued onward to our last trap of the day. 00:21:25 Speaker 2: Nothing today. 00:21:26 Speaker 1: No dice? 00:21:26 Speaker 2: No dice. Happens. It's how it goes. 00:21:31 Speaker 1: Trapping terrapins ain't no easy feat. 00:21:33 Speaker 2: Nope. So. 00:21:40 Speaker 1: How many traps is that that we checked? 00:21:42 Speaker 2: So I set three when there's two hoops on each end. 00:21:48 Speaker 3: So six. 00:21:49 Speaker 1: So six traps that McKay checked. I checked enough. I've done nothing but try to stay out of the way. So yeah. I mean you were saying they aren't easy. 00:22:00 Speaker 2: That's how it goes. 00:22:03 Speaker 1: So that's been eye opening. Not from just the like this is one this is pretty labor intensive job that she's got and two it's like this habitat out here that's like not that far from where i live it's wild but we still we got to release the baby now yeah high point of the day high point of the day high point of the. 00:22:22 Speaker 2: Day it's my win for the day yeah that's. 00:22:25 Speaker 1: A big win oh yeah now don't think for a second i was going to leave y'all hanging on the baby turtle that was mentioned to be on board with us for this voyage at the very beginning of the episode I just waited until the very end so it could be the grand finale of part one. So, yeah, this is a two-parter. So, after checking the final trap of the morning, we paddled over to a small area of marshy beach. This is where McKay has planned to release this wild baby diamondback terrapin. And guess what? You and me get to be along for the whole thing. How lucky are we? 00:23:03 Speaker 2: Home at last. So, yeah, you can see this beach is even smaller. 00:23:12 Speaker 1: There's... But they're not, like, they're not nesting on this one right now? They are nesting here, yeah. 00:23:17 Speaker 2: So, um, I've seen tracks here, and there was one depredated nest that I think was a raccoon, maybe? Um, but the foxes are not coming here. So, I caught a female on my camera. I can send you that picture. And she was just walking across the beach here. Um, So yeah, so he'll, my plan is to just drop him and let him kind of go and hide where he thinks is best. But I am going to, I brought my camera, so I'm going to photograph him a little bit for my presentation. Yeah, sure. 00:23:54 Speaker 1: As McKay removed the baby terrapin from the box that he had been held safe and secure in, she began to tell me about the huge problem that this terrapin species is facing when it comes to successful nesting. She talked about nesting habitat and the problems with it. She talked about nest predation and several issues there. And honestly, it reminded me a lot of the talk you hear around turkey population problems, as odd as that may sound. But we'll dive more into that topic in part two. For now, we're going to focus on the release of this baby turtle that McKay is now holding in her hand. And that is, I mean, so from the nesting studies you did, that's the only one you know of that survived? 00:24:32 Speaker 2: This is the only survivor, yeah. 00:24:33 Speaker 4: Wow. 00:24:37 Speaker 3: Wild. 00:24:38 Speaker 1: You got to think, McKay has been out here for months, virtually for the entire nesting season, and she knows of one, one egg, not nest, egg that successfully hatched. I'm going to draw back to the turkey analogy here. How would y'all feel if you thought your property had a single turkey pole that managed to hatch? How would you feel about that? How optimistic would you be? Personally, I would be terrified for what the springs to come would look like. And to be honest, I think the biologists like McKay that work with this species are fairly concerned. But let's end this show on a positive. We watched that little turtle scamper across the sand and burrow itself into some vegetation, which is typical behavior for this species. According to McKay, freshly hatched young will hang out on land for a while before making their first trip into the brackish waters of the Gulf. Now, that's some hands-on conservation right there. After watching him disappear, we got back in our kayaks and headed back to shore. And we made plans for another morning of checking traps in hopes that we can learn more about this keeper of the salt marsh terrapin species, and especially hoping that we can get our hands on one in a trap. I want to thank all of you for listening to Backwoods University, as well as Bear Grease and This Country Life. It means a whole heck of a lot to all of us over here. If you liked this episode, share it with somebody this week. And stick around, because heck, we haven't even caught an adult turtle in the trap yet. We're just getting started. There's a whole lot more on the way.